I donated to the Mennonites. They do a lot of good in a lot of places.

Most people I've run into think the same.

+1. Dead enders.

I donate to the Salvation Army...IMO they do the most good with the lowest overhead.

"In this belief I am, evidently, alone."

You are not alone, Paul Shirley.

I gave at the office. Its called Foreign Aid, and it comes out of my check every pay.

My donation is being delivered by Stephen Harper whether I like it or not. I don't really begrudge the money because its being used to dig people out of collapsed buildings, provide clean water to the homeless, and bullets delivered on target to freaky gang bangers trying to steal stuff and hurt aid workers. I'm pleased with all of that.

However of my own private after-tax money I only donate to the Canadian Warplane Heritage. Its the most politically incorrect thing I can think of, they don't get much in the way of government support, and I like airplanes better than people anyway.

Maybe if I didn't get reamed for HALF MY F-ING INCOME by the Crown I'd feel a little more generous. As it is, they'll have top make do with whatever Canadian Forces drops on them.

After actually reading Paul Shirley, I feel I absolutely have to comment.

My father worked in Construction in the USSR southern republic of Georgia and several times visited neighbouring Armenia for business.

Both regions can be described as adverse to official socialist idea of supremacy of 'soviet people' above personal interests to a degree, where pilfering from state run organizations was virtually a lionized activity - something noble.

When Armenian earthquake of 1988 struck Spitak and other cities, resulting devastation rivaled Haiti today. The people stole cement from the concrete and block buildings and used it in their homes. The houses stood, but the buildings collapsed. Even though it was blatantly obvious that the Armenian people were the architects (pun intended) of their demise, whole country was involved in rebuilding Armenia.

I worked in the factory that made concrete panels specially designed to withstand a quake for Armenia, they were essentially paid for by the taxpayers of USSR and donated. Billions in reconstruction aid did not in any way hinder separation of Armenia from USSR soon after.

When Haiti will be rebuilt, no one should expect a hint of gratitude from them, that's why I am not donating to no one.

John Gormley and Charles Adler both drank the kool-aid on this one, just as they did with H1N1. Kudos to Paul Shirley and Mark Steyn.

Organized charity is a part of the altruistic egoism that pervades liberal democracies. It is based on guilt and those who give are most often motivated to do so in order to ward of the envy and criticism of the poor and their enablers.

There is a big difference between claiming to be poor and simply having little wealth. It is the state of mind and the attitude of the individual that determines outcomes. Haiti claims poverty as do thousands on Vancouver's east side. Neither will ever improve their lot because they they have already decided their fate.

The only difference between those people is geography.

I do not give away money unless there will be a return on investment. Period.

Shirley has unearthed and made public a very unpleasant truth about our over-politicized era. That being: that in an era charged with callous politics in every aspect of human endeavour, it is the act of a fool to render unconditional trust in ANY popular meme.

People want so desperately to believe in something genuine and good in an increasingly corrupt world, but deep in their heart they know their trust has been betrayed every time they unconditionally trust some popular cause or leader. It makes them irrational and unstable when you throw their foolish denial in their face, as Shirley has.

Perhaps Paul Shirley now realizes there is a price to pay for exploding popular fantasies. People want so badly to believe in the tooth fairy _ frig, isn't this what AGW was all about? Isn't this displaced hope what got BO elected?

We need to differentiate between emergency aid and long-term aid. Emergency aid helps people in immediate and life-threatening distress. Our family donated to the Red Cross for that purpose.

When it comes to long-term aid for Haiti, provided through government, I think caution is the order of the day. Billions have been poured into Haiti by Canada, the US and other western countries in the last decade and with what result? Before the earthquake, it was already an on-going disaster of a country. Before we pledge another decade's worth of aid. let's see a plan for using that money productively. I think assistance should go to NGOs with good track records. It definitely should NOT pass through the hands of the local kleptocracy.

So because Haiti has had successive shitty, thieving governments, starving Haitians who don't even have clean drinking water don't warrant aid? Their politics aren't quite right?

Lost your family? Tough shit, kid, I paid taxes already for you. Lying in the street with two broken legs? Tough shit, lady, I gave at the office. Besides, it's your fault for -- how did Shirley put it? -- allowing your country to be in a position where so many people could be killed by an earthquake.

How useless you people are. How utterly useless. If Christ had actually existed, he'd be wondering why the hell he bothered trying to teach compassion to such stupid, repulsive people.

"The infliction of cruelty with a clear conscience is a delight to moralists." -- Bertrand Russell

Ruth I like the Mennonite Central Relief too. I will wait until the mad money is gone and the Gov't of Haiti starts to resettle the land and grow crops. Re-build where they are now and it all happens again.

"It is a deplorable fact that many Christians are so accustomed to a certain creed and dogma of their own that they will adhere to it even at the sacrifice of the great moral laws of love and mercy."

-- E.D.Buckner

I also won't be donating a cent to Haiti as the closest analogy I can think of to the situation is that of an 80 year old demented patient with kidney failue and metastatic cancer who has a heart attack and the family are desperately making appeals for a new heart as if a heart transplant will make the least bit of difference in the final outcome.

Interestingly there is no national IQ for Haiti in "IQ and the wealth of nations" but given that Jamaica with a mean IQ of 72 manages to get along without handouts I shudder to think of what the mean Haitian IQ must be.

Societies are complex dissipative systems and they grow, mature and die. There is a strong urge in people to help out when something bad happens to other people but the best thing for Haiti at this time would be the societal equivalent of a hospice. In medicine all doctors realize when further treatment is futile and let nature take its course.

Giving with the expectation of receiving something in return, like gratitude, is not true benevolence. This is not to say we should turn off our brains whenever we encounter a supposed need. Obviously there are situations where giving money especially will not help, the prime example being the addict with the "Need Help" sign. But groups like The Salvation Army, World Vision, etc. are not in Haiti for accolades or props from Haitians or anyone else for that matter. They are there because they are compelled to love and help where possible regardless of whether or not people anywhere praise them. They were there before the quake and they will be there after everyone leaves. Most of us could learn a thing or two from them.

Rebuilding will come later. Right now, however, the people are reeling from the earthquake and the loss of 150,000 people. That's like wiping out 50% of Halifax -- BAM! MERCY demands that we assist these people in their hour of need (food, shelter, security, clean up and bury the dead). JUSTICE demands that we do what is right after the initial needs are provided for. I agree with Shirley insomuch as the thinking caps need to be applied at that point.

His main point seemed to be that Haitians need to take responsibility for the severity of the disaster, and the conduct of the recovery and the rebuild. In this I agree 100%.

The country is in the state it is not because of France or the US. The "oppression" ended 3 generations ago. The people have been badly served by their leaders who have raped and pillaged the country for personal benefit. The local folks have the responsibility to change that. Folks in what started as just as underdeveloped countries (think Korea, Taiwan, Singapore etc.) have built thriving economies in less time than 3 generations. The time for excuses is over.

It is not racist to point this out - even Obama has said the same about the lack of development in Africa.

By continuing to provide unconditional support we are enabling self destructive behaviours.

Pretty mild stuff really. As other posters noted, all Canadian taxpayers "gave at the office" already. I don't object to the immediate disaster aid, but as to "rebuilding" Shirley is right. ESPN? I shall continue my personal boycott of that politically correct exhaust factory.

Millions (if not a billion?) dollars was donated to the tsunami relief a few years back...does anyone know, what exactly, there is to show for all that money donated?

I didn't donate either just as I don't give money to panhandlers. Giving them money unconditionally only perpetuates corruption and sloth.

Gormless always drinks the kool-aid. He's a conservative??? The tent must have been built by P.T. Barnum

What is this raving uncomprehending jackass Darrell bashing Christians for?

Salvation Army not doing enough in Haiti to satisfy you, nitwit?

I've already donated.

My tax dollars that have been pledged by the government.

Not that I don't care. I've taken enough hits with the economy downturn and my family is my first responsibility.

Even worse, it turns out some of the big charities that got donations for Indonesian tsunami relief couldn't spend all the money so they "diverted" donations into other things like attending Copenhagen, promoting social justice climate change programs etc.

Be careful who you donate to . . .

I recently donated to relief efforts. I bought myself a new coffee pot as I find efficient caffeine delivery very relieving.

"...my family is my first responsibility."

exactly, this months last dollar is going towards MY property & income tax installments so MY family isn't forced into the cold streets.

JMD is right, there is a huge difference between emergency aid and long term aid. A good analogy would be someone getting hurt in a crosswalk accident. You normally can and do give what assistance you can, but it doesn't mean you have to go and fix up their house or develop a socially responsible committee to ponder about the root causes to explain why the poor soul got run over in the first place.

I believe, as far as Tsunami Relief money goes, there are 8 new resorts built by the government where the fisherfolk once lived. They've been moved back into a slum in the interior where obviously they can no longer fish.

I donated to a private group that is working to provide emergency medical aid. Not even tax-deductible, AFAIK.

Shirley wasn't telling us to callously stand by and watch the wounded and injured die. Nothing wrong with giving some immediate help to alleviate the suffering directly caused by the earthquake.

But when it comes to endlessly pouring in foreign aid to prop up a corrupt regime, a regime which exacerbates disasters of this kind by failing to provide suitable infrastructure, then we should call a halt. If Haiti's entire economy is based upon foreign aid, then the donor countries should call the shots.

What Haiti badly needs is to be put under some sort of trusteeship. They have proven themselves incapable of self-government.

Hey Darrell, I'll see your Bertrand Russell and raise you a Haiti reality check:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704878904575031673153590414.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEADNewsCollection

It turns out that delivering -emergency- food, water and medical aid (aka bandages, aspirin, sutures and the like) is a military grade operation. The people the aid is being delivered to are so dysfunctional, so, dare I say it, uncivilized, that they are effectively stopping all shipments at the airport and the harbor with their barbaric behavior. Aid is being delivered into what amounts to an active civil war, with shooting and everything.

Sorry if reality doesn't meet your specifications.

I say again, I gave at the office. Canadian Forces is the appropriate tool for getting this job done.

If there's a catastrophe in London Ontario, I'll probably head over myself with a truck load of evil plastic water bottles. But since I'm disarmed and stripped of cash by our benevolent government, then our benevolent government is going to have to step the hell up for this one.

And unlike during the too-long tenure of the Liberals, Canadian Forces is getting the job done here. For a change I'm not actively ashamed of the lame-ass token military effort, twelve men and three broken-down VW Thing vehicles. Our guys showed up with the goods and are getting it done right.

What's your problem with this, monkey boy? My heart not bleeding enough for you?

I give to the Sally Anne. They helped me out once and I could see when they did, that they didn't seem to be much further ahead financially than I was at the time.

They didn't live in palatial mansions in Kitsilano, or have property on Quadra Island while claiming to be a "charity" and helping others with their visions of how things should be.

A post at Theo sums it up for me:

Clicky

Gord, what Haiti needs to do is declare war on the USA and get themselves invaded.

Worked awesome for Iraq, right? Downtown Baghdad is safer than downtown Chicago these days.

One definately needs to be careful when choosing an organization to donate to after natural disasters; however, not donating due to the fact that the country reciving the funds is corrupt or organizations advertising assistance are possibly corrupt as well, is no excuse not to donate. Our church chose Haiti as it's focus back in the beginning 2009. We have two missionaries stationed there that are established and are able to distribute aid. Although other organizations are asking for money, ours had already arranges to send a box car full of goods - the box car was to be turned into a shelter for a family in need. One can donate clothes - consider putting change or bills - preferably American change/bills into the pockets of the clothing you donate or in other items to be shipped overseas - that way your money goes directly to those in need. $10 Canadian dollars + $376 Haitian dollars. $10 Amercian dollars + $402 Haitian dollars. One can tuck the money away so that only the recipient of the goods finds it.

"Haiti needs to do is declare war on the USA and get themselves invaded. "

Funny thing is I've heard in several earlier reports that many locals were actually calling for US marines to take over the government.

Blame the victims - nothing new here. Talk about being born on third base and acting like you just hit a triple.

The arrogance of some folks living in advanced industrialized countries, pointing their crooked fingers at people and places that they are truly ignorant of. Tell the 12 year old orphan that she is unworthy of your charity because her corrupt forebears left the cupboard bare. This isn't about making a political point, its about helping a few fellow humans. This is NOT the same as giving the homeless guy a loonie!

coolpacific @2:57

Heh. To continue with your baseball analogy, coolpacific steps up to the plate, takes a mighty swing, and totally misses the point.

"Millions (if not a billion?) dollars was donated to the tsunami relief a few years back...does anyone know, what exactly, there is to show for all that money donated?"

A few thousand folks that you weren't forced into watching starve to death. Were you looking for a better return on the investment.

I think a few of you read "Atlas Shrugged" and instead of enlightened became confused.

gordinkneehill - the point? I suspect if you had a clue you would enlighten me.

The way I read the piece is that Haiti has only Haiti to blame for its predicament. It is straight forward; I missed nothing.

You sleep tight now, in your misguided self righteousness, puffed up and proud of the virtue of being born in a wealthy land.

Where were these people 3 weeks ago? Haiti needed help then, as well.

We live in advanced industrialized countries not because of chance, but because our predecessors had enough willpower to work instead of whining about poverty.

I keep telling my kids when they whine about studying things: I have all power in the world to stay in my basement and play computer games, but I wake up at 7am and drive for 1 hour to work instead. You just have to have willpower to force yourself to do the right things, otherwise you end up in one sort of institution or another.

A local church has been going to Haiti for decades, every summer they go build schools and such. Sadly most of the aide money will go to corrupt politicians, micro credit and medicine and food would aide the people of Haiti throwing millions of dollars at a corrupt government will only cause more suffering.

Well, let me throw my 2 cents in, helping 3rd World Countries breed that are a cesspool of crime, murder, rape, kidnapping, slave trade and VooDoo like Haita is a Liberal Socialist Utopia. There is no possible way to account for all the money that is donated.

Just for kicks and giggles, maybe some of you should google the yearly salary for the top administator for the Salvation Army.

Back in the Ole Daycare Days we used to let United Way in, and I even got quasay arrested for United Way and stayed at the Court House alday calling my friends to donate. The next day I googled United Way and found out how much the top Dogs made.

I do not donate anymore, to anyone.
,

Yes, Haiti has only itself to blame for its predicament. That's because it is run, not as a nation, but as a corrupt corporation for the benefit of the 30 families who own all production and services in the land.

These families live in gated communities, protected by armed guards. They speak French, send their children to private French schools, and run everything - government, industries, banks.

The mass of the population have no power. They speak Creole. The 30 families have not set up a societal infrastructure for these people;; i.e., an educational system (over 505 of the population is illiterate); there is no decent road, hydro, water, health care infrastructure. These people are unemployed and subsist off international aid.

International charities provide what health care, schooling exists for these people. The 30 families government does not.

The massive financial aid that pours into Haiti yearly for roads, hospitals, schools etc is siphoned off by these 30 families. It doesn't get to the population whose state of life hasn't changed..ever.

There are no building codes, and the cheap houses etc that the Creole population builds for themselves can't stand up to any natural disaster. The govt ignores this situation.

The 30 families are of course delighted that the international world is rebuidling Haiti. It means that they don't have to contribute a dime to such efforts...and don't have to change their corrupt infrastructure.

Is anyone interested in forcing this corrupt set of families to change and actually, enable Haiti to emerge as a nation? Rather than a private and corrupt corporation?

coolpacific @3:33

See? You let the point slip right by you again. That point being that Haiti, with its tradition of corrupt governments IS largely responsible for the fact that an earthquake, which is a normal and statistically predictable event on that island, caused death and devastation far beyond what might be expected, if a quake of similar magnitude were to strike, say, Vancouver.

By continuing to allow foreign aid to flow unfettered into that country, we are propping up that corrupt system, and thereby perpetuating the problem. It's called "enabling behavior", and it's analogous to your mother supporting your drug habit by permitting you to live for free in her basement.

That's not to say we shouldn't provide humanitarian disaster relief. We should, and we are. I have contributed. Have you?

Personally, I can not believe what I am reading here. Don't donate because the government is corrupt? Granted the government is corrupt, but who said anything about giving donations to the Haitian government. I recommend giving through churches who already have missionaries in place who also have programs in place to assist those in need. The idea that these Haitians are getting what they deserve due to their religion and corrupt government is a sickening and cowardly philosophy as far as I am concerned. Come on now -do you really believe that everyone in Haiti deserved what they got - that is sociopathic thinking. Whether or not God judged the region, it is our duty and responsibility to help our fellow man. Stop the excuses. Like I said, you can donate directly to the masses by placing bills and change strategically in your donated items.

Agreed Phantom. When the French minister accused America of a “military occupation in Haiti” two weeks ago I thought to myself: "and that would be a bad thing?" This clearly shows the hypocrisy of motives for those that would accuse the Americans of such things. I’ve also noticed that most of the verbal stones are cast by those that donated the least, or nothing.

It's deplorable how politics is dragged into everything, especially leftarded politics. Right on cue, all of the secular moral elitists have taken the opportunity to lambaste their political foes, by trying to stifle relevant and important conversations, with the usual tactics. Labelling and slandering the participants as uncompassionate and racist. After all, wouldn't the recipients of emergency aid today, and in the future, benefit from the culling of corruption in their governments and in the upper hierarchies of the aid providers? I can see how this would hurt the pocketbooks of many activists that tend to throw these proverbial stones, but I digress. Follow the money! For example, not stirred enough cast plenty of verbal stones from his high and mighty moral high ground just last week; then today, says that he hasn’t put any personal money forthright to the cause he champions. Since the entire discussion is in bad taste(according to stirred and his comrades), I can only conclude that those like stirred are just cheap.

The mantra for the left should be: ”Cheap”, par for the leftist course.

I agree ET.

Having a cousin from Haiti myself I feel the only way to change anything is to change its government and make it accountable to an outside democratic country, or we just keep taking kids off their hands to offer a better life with an ability to make something of themselves.

I feel for the people of Haiti, but I will not give one cent to the country until I see an overhaul of the government.

Coolpacifc - Have you read the article? Trolling in and emoting doesn't help you to understand and help in the shot term or long term.

Shirley says,he doesn't mean, "serves them right", he doesn't mean "kids should suffer". He says he is heartened to see people caring. But he says, the adults there need to start acting responsibly. Aid should be provided with that in mind. It does not work to give aid unconditionally. The following quote summarizes it for you:
"The people of whom I write are adults. Functional, human adults with functional, human adult brains. It is not too much to ask that they behave as such. That they stand up and say, “Yes, we screwed this up the first time. We are forever indebted to you. Now show us how we can do it right. So that, next time, we won’t need your help.”

Now you should know that is very much like what Obama has said about Africa and its state of underdevelopment. And Dambisa Moyo in Dead Aid says it too. Yes emergency aid is needed. But the time for excuses is past. The time for the resident adults to step up to the plate (in your baseball analogy) is now.

Oh dear, an opinion!

Can't have that. OFF WITH HIS HEAD!

The virtue of charity should not be a complex one. Some cannot help the conditions in which they live. Some people live in a certain area because their livelihood depends on it. Many millions of people live under the shadow of corruption and tyranny (ie- North Korea). Many people are ripped off by wealthier countries. These are true and valid points. When confronted with these points, one feels compelled to give.
However, giving aid, particularly long-term aid, to what some have termed kleptocracies isn't answer, either. How much rice has been given to North Korea where people STILL starve? Likewise, the short-term relief we give to Haiti via NGOs will most likely (one hopes) help those who need it now but what is to prevent the corrupt Haitian government or an outside party from doing what they will?
I don't think Mr. Shirley should be sanguine about his decision not to give aid. I also think when we give, our right hand shouldn't know what our left hand is doing.
Just my thoughts.

Haiti over Darfur? Over AIDS sufferers in Africa? Over those who suffer and die daily in Calcutta or other cities? Over literally thousands of crisis situations in the world today? Are those who choose to donate for the relief of suffering in one place less worthy than those who choose to help in others?

Some folks make me wonder if they would go barking after the Good Samaritan, demanding to know why he wasted so much of his time and money on a guy he found lying in the street (who might actually have been the author of his own misfortune and may have had a pre-existing condition). Or they are like those who slagged Mother Teresa for her work (Why those people and not someone else? Why provide food and comfort rather than community organization and social advocacy?)

We shouldn't condemn those individuals who give to the relief of Haitians because that assistance doesn't come with a demand that they change their behaviour, nor should we condemn those who give to relieve suffering in other places and circumstances in preference to donating to projects in Haiti. And if you don't know where to direct your charity, send your money to those organizations you trust (Oxfam and the IRC aren't top of my list), and trust their judgment.

24 - you simply don't get it. What exists in Haiti is NOT a nation but a corrupt corporation that happens to have a mass of people, about 6 million, living in and around its industries.

This corporation is made up of a closely networked set of families. It is uninterested in these people except as cheap labour. Its focus is on money and they are multi-millionaires, exporting coffee, oranges; they control the port, the banks, etc.

They are the government but do not provide any services to the people, eg, roads, schools, medical care, housing standards, water, hydro.

Such services come from the international charities that set up the local medical clinics, schools, etc.

Now, if you give the money to this 'govt' then it goes to the elite coffers; it doesn't build schools, housing, roads, water supplies. Because this govt has no intention of setting up the population in such a manner.

We aren't talking about these masses deserving what they got; we are talking about how to best assist them, not to remain the same, as serfs of these elite families.

That's what most of this aid will do; it will re-set them as serfs. What we are talking about is how to change the governing infrastructure of Haiti to move its 6 million out of serfdom and enable them to be citizens in a nation.

Phantom @101 - you're funny! Good read.

So I guess Paul Shirley would be comfortable with me walking past him after he got hit by a car and was lying injured at the roadside. That's what he is advocating with Haiti.

I didn't give to Haiti. I gave to World Vision so they can take relief to the desperate survivors in Haiti. They already have an established work there and I fully trust that the money will benefit the people who need it most.

coolpacific @257 - I like your comment, what you say makes a lot of sense.

Combine that with ET's - ie - we can't rebuild what previously existed (a self-serving kleptocracy designed to impoverish millions), and I think we get an idea of where we should go.

As Phantom says, we already donate, and if we want to donate more, it's a good thing, if through the right organization. But in the long run . . . we can't rebuild the same.

I heard a guy on the radio talk about going to Haiti as a tourist. It was sketchy - but he went to see an old church. A young woman came up to him, and begged him to take her baby, to "save his life".

All humour aside, what was there shouldn't continue. The sad thing is that there will be plenty of people killed and plenty of women raped and many starved to death in the next few months.

My impression of the Haitian earthquake is this. I watched newscasts of Haitians walking past mounds of rubble. What I did not see were Haitians moving the rubble or digging to look for survivors. What I did see on the newscasts were Haitians saying, "Somebody must help us!"
I know that was not the case all over but it did seem to be a common occurrence.
There was one story of a man looking for the mother of his child. She was plainly visible, dead, underneath the collapsed upper floor of her house. The neighbors and her former lover, holding handkerchiefs over their mouths and noses, pointed to her body, her eyes still open in death, and lamented how sad it was that she was dead. I thought "how sad it is that they do not move the rubble and give the woman a decent burial!" Would not any of you labour all day, by hand if necessary, to remove a loved one from such a situation or would you lament and say how sad it was, allowing the woman to be treated as a piece of rubble, disposable, to be bulldozed under with the rest of the devastation?
This, as I see it,is the problem with Haiti. Life is too cheap. People were buried in mass graves. The people did not bury their dead, that was deemed to be someone else's responsibility. The survivors wait to be rescued as opposed to doing the rescuing. As Christians are fond of saying, "God helps those who help themselves"

I will not donate to these people. This is not from greed or lack of empathy! I already fund the continuing education of two people, neither of whom are related to me. One in this country, one in a third world country. I do not get tax reciepts nor do I ask for them. The reward will not be mine to see, but it will be enough to know that I helped lift two people out of poverty, that is, if they choose to make the most of the opportunity. That part I have left to them. Haitians should look within themselves first and them ask the outside world for help.

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
- John Kenneth Galbraith

Gee, a real surprise that none of you will be giving to Haiti and you're justifying it with a bunch of hogwash to cover up the real reasons.

Which are: you are selfish, you love to jump on people when they're down, you love to blame the victim and you get off on other people's misery.

It all goes along with your love of torture, your love of war, and your hatred of compassion.

You are all directly opposed to the principles espoused by Jesus Christ - like your hero, Ayn Rand.

Medecines Sans Frontieres (MSF).
OK, I know it's French, but....
During the Sunami appeals, they sent a message out to say to their fans,.." please don't send any more money, we have enough...."
Have you ever heard of any other charity sending that message?
Give to them, they're good guys.

Darrell-
I also believe Christ said " The Lord helps those who help themselves".

Mike, if Paul got drunk and leapt in front of the speeding car - yeah, it would be hard to get all worked about how "tragic" it was.

Marquis, sometimes the victim IS to blame. If you are older than 12 years old, then all I can say is, I feel sorry for you.

And as a matter of fact, while not a huge fan of Rand, I think the best thing we could send to Haiti would be 6 million copies of Atlas Shrugged. Except nobody there can read.

I was appalled by Paul Shirley's remarks.

God save us from people that cynical and calculating about the victims of a disaster.

What if Shirley were hit by a bus while crossing the street and, instead of rushing to his aid, everyone simply stood on the curb, admonishing him for having been careless?

Presumably, he'd find their view of the matter entirely reasonable.

So marquis how much of your income do you give away in a year? Without reciepts.

coolpacific: "Blame the victims - nothing new here."

What do you mean? 'You come here alot? I haven't made your acquaintance.

I lived in the Caribbean, so didn't get my ideas from Atlas Shrugged.

People have to take responsibility for their living conditions; if they're no good, they can't just shrug, sit down, and wait for help. They have to be proactive in improving how they live -- whether or not they are successful against some of the bastards that "govern" them. Every choice they make -- small or large -- either moves them towards something better or causes them to languish and stagnate.

In Haiti's case, the people for far too long have acquiesced to their servitude and have relied on over 10,000 outside agencies to provide them with the most basic of amenities.

They need to step up to the plate, to participate in their own rehabilitation, or the efforts of the international community to help them will come to naught. The beginning of their emancipation will be their admitting to the total corruption at every level that exists in their country, to their own responsibility in that corruption and how they plan to be accountable, and a determination to put an end to it, choice by choice.

If the Haitian people decide to view themselves as perpetual victims, they will remain perpetual victims and no amount of international aid can change that.

Atric- Christ didn't say it I said it first

Shaidle, I pity you beyond words.

Now get back to your race-baiting as a way to make a 'name' for yourself.

When's lunch?

As messed up and corrupt the Haitian government is, we need to provide some support to that country. The people of Haiti need to correct their governmental mess. Blaming them for the earthquake is ridiculous, just as bad as Hugo Chavez blaming the USA for it. Basic human compassion say's provide help. I must say that watching the goings on in Haiti right now on Fox is very worry some. Rapes, looting, child theft trafficking, some parts of the country not receiving any aid supply's, makes a guy's head spin.

marquis

It's been well documented that conservatives and the right-wing donate substantially more to charity than liberals/progressives and the left-wing. Do I need to provide the links, or are you happy spouting-off your baseless nonsense.

"If you are 20 and you are not a socialist, you have no heart. If you are 40 and you are a socialist, you have no brain". Churchill

I suspect you are 40+ marquis.

There is much to be said for the argument that if you never stop giving a man fish, he'll never learn to fish for himself.

However, there sometimes comes a point where if you don't give him some fish, he'll starve to death before he can learn.

It is very easy to condemn those as "heartless" who disagree about where exactly the transition between these two states lies. It is also generally unproductive.

If you detest the moral superiority of someone who smugly explains why he won't donate, don't get hung up on proving your own moral superiority; just donate more yourself.

If you despise what you see as a waste of money that will only perpetuate misery indefinitely rather than alleviating it permanently, then get involved in how the money is spent; don't just mock others for throwing theirs away.

In Haiti's case there is two separate things going on. The disaster that was Haiti before the earthquake and the the disaster that was caused by the earthquake. Fixing the second problem involves sending money and material to rescue, aid and rebuild. The first problem has been in existence a lot longer and no amount of money or material is going to fix it. Fixing the first problem requires a philosophy transplant. They need a philosophy that removes fatalism and hopelessness. A philosophy that is based on fair play, honesty and mutual respect. A philosophy that is slow to take offense and quick to forgive. Now why does that sound so much like Christianity?

Indiana
Anyone that has been in business knows lefties
are the tightest wallet huggers on the planet

I did not send money to Haiti from my own funds. The Canadian government is commiting 135 Million Dollars of taxpayer mo0ney to Haiti...that's my donation...period. How come the other part of the Island is not getting Millions $$$$.You know the Dominican Republic?? No TV cover there or the UN ponzie people. I guess the earth quake stopped in the middle of the island. At the border to the Dominician Republic....

marquis never answered the question to as how much he donates to charity, therefore I suspect that as is the case with most leftists, he is very good at donating other peoples monies, very stingy with his own and want to cry "greedy capitalist" when others object to being to handing over their hard earned dollars to the state or in this case "the black hole of charitable donating". Choose carefully where you send your donations.
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/01/15/dont-give-money-to-haiti/

OK ET, I guess when you are buried in mounds of rubble, i will not assist you until you esouse my political idealogy. What I am hearing from you - perhaps i am miaunderstanding you - certainly hope so, is that unless I I have worthy intellectly thoughts or bleiefs, and because my government is corrupt, I am not worthy of assistance. You are obviously a Darwinian - only the strong survive mentality. Wht so you contribute to society other than intellectual theories. Can you chop wood, build a shelter, hunt food, prepare food, make clothing form animal skins, or in any other way contribute to society when disaster hits. Ifg your response is no, you are voted off the island because you are unable to contribute, in any meaningful way, to survival.

marquis, you're indulging in the age old Lefty pursuit of bashing The West with the poor. I'm not buying. The poor are not that way because of me.

To you I say what I said to Darell above: I GAVE AT THE OFFICE.

In answer to your complaints that my heart does not bleed enough, I refer you to the brand new beautiful Boeing Globemasters that flew all that aid down there to Haiti, and are -still- flying down in an endless stream. Machines which the -conservatives- bought, over the shrieking and crying of people like YOU sir.

Aid which is delivered and guarded by our soldiers, with guns and everything, because the people it is being delivered to are so uncivilized they can't so much as form an orderly line to get water. In fact, every delivery point becomes an instant riot as the "poor" literally trample each other to get at whatever is being handed out.

I would also like to refer you to the entire non-Western world, which has sent -nothing- to Haiti. Zippo. F- all.

So you will perhaps forgive me if I say that the best possible thing the people of Haiti can hope for is that I remain exactly as I am, conservatively keeping my Squaresville racist/sexist/homophobic imperialist Western values alive, and paying taxes to put gas in Canadian Forces machinery.

Fie upon you and your disgraceful moonbattery sir.

The people of Haiti need to change you have the Dominician Republic sitting right beside Haiti and they are a thriving country then fast forward to Haiti where we keep propping them up and nothing ever changes. Why not annex Haiti to the Dominican Republic if they'll take them?

About the Hatian people and others living under corrupt and socialist oppression.

The fact is, it is very difficult for an individual to "stand-up" in a society/climate that frowns upon productivity; and that is exactly what socialism/communism is all about. You can see it clearly in the public union environment here at home. If you stand-out due to increased productivity, you will be bullied and ridiculed until you stop, or until you cease to exist. This foundation of socialism/communism is poison for the soul, robbing man of the pride that goes along with a job well-done.

As difficult and oppressive an environment this is for an individual(speaking about living under socialist oppression now), it is STILL the individual’s responsibility to STAND-UP and make whatever sacrifice is required for liberty! That’s what were talking about isn’t it? Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. For the sake of their children and their children’s children, the price MUST be eventually paid. To do anything else is to delegate the burden to your children, and so on and so on. Many of us admire Native Canadians that break the bonds of the oppression they live under on reserve, dished out by bureaucrats and corrupt chiefs. These brave people might not live under the fear of death, but they do often pay the price of being exiled from their communities, and ridiculed in tha hood. Many of us admire and respect those that travel this tough road, but we also EXPECT IT, just as we EXPECT others in similar situations, regardless of the degree, to do the same.

Fortunately for me, my ancestors have paid the initial price for my liberty. The responsibility falls to me(and you) to preserve this gift. I can't say that I would have the courage to martyr myself for an idealistic cause that me nor my children might reap the fruits of; and I know it’s not fair, but that doesn't change the necessity for such acts to begin in Haiti, and everywhere else where liberty is not a right.

O/T

If you are interested in fantasy novels or know someone that is, I recommend “The Sword of Truth” by Terry Goodkind. This is the main struggle in this book series. Book #7 (I think) “Faith of the Fallen” really opened my eyes to the foundation of what socialism/communism is built on, that foundation being: self loathing. You can read that novel as a stand-alone IMO, the series gets progressively better, especially after the second book.(btw, stay far far away from the TV series “Legend of the Seeker”, it’s a worse representation of the the book than the Tom Hanks Robert Langdon thing.)

coolpacfic, my ancestors who built this country wouldn't give to Haiti if they were alive either.
Unlike you, I understand their principles.
Nobody ever gave me charity, and I have needed it at times in my life.

The first principle of safety is to assure your own safety before plunging into danger and attempting to save another.
The second principle is never try to save someone who could be trying to save themselves but show no effort to do so.

All my donations go to fighting against the destruction of my way of life by Leftists here in Canada.

You are all directly opposed to the principles espoused by Jesus Christ
~marquis

You wouldn't know Christ or his principles if they bit you on the lip.
Show me a single Biblical example of Christ or his followers giving any charity to anyone who wasn't a follower, a believing member of their community.

Historically, Haitian slaves fought off and defeated the French, throwing them off of what was at that time the richest French settlement in the world outside of France itself and the richest settlement in the entire New World.

Their descendants couldn't throw off the yoke of a mere 30 families of corrupt tyrants with a 1000:1 ratio in their favour?
Why is that?
(is life too good, are they too fat and complacent?)

Another question would be why the Canadian RCMP has tried to build a Haitian National Police force for years and the Canadian government has thrown up it's hands and attempted to politically distance themselves, before the earthquake, and offer the job of forming an HNP up for bids from private contractors, despite 70% unemployment before the earthquake, because the labour pool from which to draw police recruits for the HNP is too corrupt.

How many of you on this thread were doing anything for Haiti, which was a 4th world toilet before the earthquake where the people couldn't even raise goats, when the MSM wasn't pushing your buttons after the earthquake?

P.S.
I second everything Phantom has said so well.
Kudos to you Phantom.

It's a fair topic for discussion ... for those who are capable of an actual discussion.

Of course what you get when you open up any such line of thought ....

The predictable Pavlovian response from the deep thinkers in leftardia.

Don't confuse them with facts or any level of discussion above the emotional knee jerk.

btw,

RE:"Sword of Truth" spoiler alert

There is no happy ending, the main character Richard begrudgingly realizes the truth of the matter, that nothing can be done to save people that have no desire to be saved.

?24u&i 2:52 Good tip, good endings and good karma.

24- your response is a rant. Not an argument. Who is talking about political beliefs or intellectual arguments? I, for one, am talking about reality. Do you know the reality of Haiti? I don't think so. You are stuck in some naive emotional self-satisfying fiction.

Just for an off-topic response, I'm against neoDarwinism, both in its random causality and its 'survival of the fittest'. But I do believe in evolutionary adaptation; however, the system is far more complex than the mechanical outline of neoDarwinism.

Now, to your rant. Your focus is superficial. None of us are talking about not helping people 'buried under the rubble'. That's not the point.

What we are talking about and what you choose to ignore is that the governing infrastructure of Haiti has set up a situation where any and all attacks - whether it be a hurricane, earthquake, epidemic - destroy this population. Have you bothered to wonder why? Are you at all curious or do you just emotionally react?

After all, there are other areas in the world that suffer catastrophic attacks and these do not destroy the population nor do they require massive external aid.

Where are the Haitian firefighters, police, medical teams, hospitals in all this? Why are the only medical services available even during 'regular times' run by external aid? Oh - there aren't any Haitian systems available to this general population? Oh. Why not? No schools, no hospitals, no roads, no hydro, no water - not even during 'regular times'. Why not?

And why does the general population live in shanties and mud huts that crumble in an earthquake zone? Why aren't these homes built to withstand such events? Why do the homes of the elite 30 families not crumble? And why are the police around these mansions and not in the Haitian streets?

Do you actually know anything about the ruling infrastructure of Haiti? From the sounds of it, you are utterly ignorant. I suggest you do a bit of research.

What we are talking about here is our concern that this elite set of Ruling Families, who control all productivity in Haiti, will use, as they've done for generations, this foreign aid to restore the Serfs - not costing the Haitian elite a penny - and restore the fiefdom system.

What we want to see - yes, in return for our dollars - is that our money doesn't go to finance and maintain a corrupt fiefdom. But that it goes to end it. And enables a genuine nation to develop in Haiti.

Do you treat the broken arms and legs of a battered woman, and then, tell her to go back to that abusive home? You do? That's what these years of foreign aid have done to Haiti.

Marquis @ 536

You are talking out of your butthole.

I am not donating to Haiti. I contribute, without tax releif, to a family in Africa that is doing things to better themselves - good school with good teachers and thinking about what they can do to make their country better.

Where the hell do you and the rest of you who know it all come from to say something as mean spirited and unhelpful as that.

Go out into the real world and see what money for nothing begets!

I have the same thoughts; but I cannot help but think about all of the innocents (i.e. little kids) who might get just a smidgen of the money I send. Therefore, I have donated some $$.

I have given a few dollars (no more than five) but also expect most of it to be syphoned off by intermediaries and local "governments"

I am coming round to the idea of a Canadian Protectorate; it would also assist our Turcs and Cacos Province-to-be, who are being over-run by Haitians.

The protectorate would be GG rule, appointed by the Canadian Parliament; Canadian forces and police in the background behind the local forces. It will take 50 years, two generations, to break the cycle of corruption and civic disfunction. Perhaps, they'd even become a province of Canada.

While we are throwing rocks at one another for perceived lack of compassion or lack of common sense, might we try a suggested alternative for Haiti and the Hatians? It is I think arguable to say that Haiti, (along with much of the middle east and vitually all of Africa)was released from colonial status too soon. They are not capable of running their own "country". Unfortunately, there is unlikely to be any other country which would like the role of colonizer and the other possible candidate, the UN, is equally incapable.
Cheers, Eric

The Phantom at January 29, 2010 1:01 PM

Maybe if I didn't get reamed for HALF MY F-ING INCOME by the Crown I'd feel a little more generous. As it is, they'll have top make do with whatever Canadian Forces drops on them.

PHANTOM, I AM OF ONE VOICE WITH THE MULTITUDE, SUCH AS YOU.

It is a fact that socialists are less generous to charity than capitalists; they expect "government" to fulfill their moral obligations. Capitalists, however, think this is no business of government.

Correct Robert- However, a capitalist
will not throw money into a bottomless socialist pit to soothe his conscience

Robert of Ottawa, because of the the Canadian Charter of Rights and Haitian culture, your Canadian Protectorate of Haiti gets an emphatic thumbs DOWN from me.

"Capitalists, however, think this is no business of government."
~Robert of Ottawa

When the government stops sending my taxes to unworthy places, like Haiti where the people won't help themselves, then I'll give on an individual basis that appears to add security to my way of life.
Until then, I gave at the office too, just like Phantom did.

The Calgary Children's Hospital should get all the funding it needs, after they break the public unions, and then foreign sources can beg for my charity instead of worthy Canadian causes that ought to already have all the tax funding that they need.

Haiti is a money pit, and as such is not a worthy candidate.

ET at January 29, 2010 7:28 PM

The Haitian hotel is not built of mud huts, but of concrete ... however, without rebar (sp?) so there is only concrete, no reinforcement.

Wow my keyboarding is worse than I thought - full of typographical errors. I am actually a very good speller. However, keybording is skill I never managed to master.

ET, your rant suggests that I am emotional - drama queen comes to mind.

I agree with you - why not you ask are the homes built to withstand hurricanes and earthquakes - the answer is poverty of the serfs. It is what it is. The truth is there are hundress of thousands of homeless people who have lost loved ones. Unfortunately these people live in a corrupt government system that thinks nothing of robbing the people blind. Well. guess what - there is nothing left to rob. I do not see anywhere in my post where I suggested perons donate to the corrupt Haiten government. On the contrary, I suggested persons donate through their church where missionaries are already established. I apologize for insinuating you were a red blooded Darwinist - I stand corrected. I do not see any evidence of emotionalizm in my response. I was simply communicating ways to give that bypass a corrupt government and a donation alternative.ed.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that, previously, foreign aid has gone into the pockets of corrupt officials. I think this earthquake, despite the extreme misery and horrendous death toll, is the best thing that has happened to Haiti. It is a chance for a new beginning for their country. A new start that, if handled correctly, could result in freedom from the abuses of power. Again, I apolgize if I offended you or misunderstood your stance on the issue.

ET at January 29, 2010 7:28 PM

The Haitian hotel is not built of mud huts, but of concrete ... however, without rebar (sp?) so there is only concrete, no reinforcement.

Do we give a man burning at the stake a glass of water or do we first pull him away?

> Their descendants couldn't throw off the yoke of a mere 30 families of corrupt tyrants with a 1000:1 ratio in their favour?

For the same reason the muslim only whine and belch about infidel oppression, but if their own muslim king chops off their heads - it's fine: race/religion/culture card. It's all white man's fault.

I echo many of the sentiments above:

I wouldn't give a squeegee kid the time of day, but if he gets hit by a car I will do what i can to save his life.

The issue with donating to haiti is that I don't know if i can trust the guys running the ambulance not to steal the squeegee and leave the kid in the ditch.

Donating to your little charity of choice which you know returns value for your dollar only
perpetuates the problem. It creates a situation of dozens of charities working independently to
give immediate relief. It results in a weaker
central government without fiscal authority to create long term solutions. They can only stand by and watch, corrupt or not. It does nothing to create jobs, create police forces and a stronger social structure and judiciary.
The success of the free world is a result of lust for improvement.
We all know our ancestors came to create a new society.
They did it without handouts. We should be perpetuating and applauding their efforts.

OZ at 7;15

and I was thinkin of using Rhodesia as an example of the leftist utopia model, from "the bread basket of Africa" to Zimbabwe, " the toilet of Africa" at the hands of a socialist, enabled by the entitlement mind set of the general population

Darrell @ 01:34
You don't like Christian charity, don't accept it. Go ahead and quote Bertrand Russell and others of his ilk. An example of his philosophy against Christianity was the fact that Jesus cursed a tree that didn't bear fruit; an obvious similitude, but Russell was so shallow as to see it as an act of violence. Go live your sad demented morality buddy. By the way, I haven't yet given to any particular charity as I already paid through involuntary taxes. It certainly won't go to any UN sponsored society.

The one thing I have yet to see -anywhere- is proposals for starting business in Haiti. 70% unemployment and 6 million people starving, one would think there's be a pretty good possibility of making some serious return on investment. Like for any food related company, concrete, construction, factories, anything at all that requires unskilled labor. You know, capitalism.

Money goes to opportunity like water rolls down hill. But it ain't going to Haiti.

Therefore, ET is probably right (like there was any question) and any investment in Haiti gets stolen by the thugocracy in control of the place.

Making me all the happier that Canadian Forces is guarding all that stuff we sent. Let the Haiti National People's Police or whatever sad sacks they've got try to rip-off the Regs. Good luck, punks.

Medecines Sans Frontieres (MSF).
Yep them's the good guys....Sally Ann too...

When Halifax blew up on Dec 6, 1917.....the first responders were the Yanks---literally...the people of Boston. They sent doctors, nurses, and medical supplies by ship PDQ....which arrived before the first relief train from TROC.

That said...ET is largely correct. The french speaking elite are the ones who have settled here, in the USA and Europe. More Haitian doctors are in the US that doctors period in Haiti.
Canada's Governor General is a shinning example of the Haitian brain-drain.

Haiti really needs to be subject to some sort of Trustee-ship...NOT THE UN!
A combined administration by the US Marines and the French Foreign Legion would work well.
NGO's are generally leftist kleptocracies.

Disaster or normal.....aid/rescue agencies/workers ALWAYS NEED PROTECTION from their clients....Haiti, Sierra Leone or New Orleans.....
There are no reports of looting etc after the Halifax BOOM....musta been the times...or the people....

I already have made a name for myself.

I've written a bunch of books, my blog is read by thousands of people a day, around the world -- including on Parliament Hill and by influential people whose names you'd be shocked to learn.

It's funny how jealous, petty and cowardly male lefties are always so envious of my success, all the while posting their bitter little rants _anonymously_ -- then wondering why they aren't famous yet, too! boo hoo.

Atric posted. I also believe Christ said " The Lord helps those who help themselves". Although I can understand why you think Jesus said this - he did not. It is widely used, yet few verify the source - Jesus

As a matter of fact this oft used excuse to ignore the needs of our fellow man, is not found anywhere in the entire bible.

Teachable moment time.

"How many times have we heard the familiar passage “God helps those who help themselves?” We hear it quite frequently, don’t we? In order to fully understand that passage let us turn to it. You all know where it is located don’t you? Maybe it is in the book of Hezekiah or possibly Phillips 66:1. No, that’s not right. Look as we may we won’t find that passage in the Bible. Although often quoted and stated this phrase doesn’t come from the Bible nor is it even Biblical in origin.

In fact this quotation has come down to us from GREEK MYTHOLOGY! Specifically it comes to us from one of Aesop’s fables, of the 6th century B.C. Let’s read this fable entitled “Hercules and the Waggoner.” “A Waggoner was once driving a heavy load along a very muddy way. At last he came to a part of the road where the wheels sank half-way into the mire, and the more the horses pulled, the deeper sank the wheels. So the Waggoner threw down his whip, and knelt down and prayed to Hercules the Strong."

‘O Hercules, help me in this my hour of distress,’ quoth he. But Hercules appeared to him, and said: ‘Tut, man, don’t sprawl there. Get up and put your shoulder to the wheel.’

The gods help them that help themselves.”

The saying “the gods help those that help themselves” evolved to “God helps those who help themselves” as the phrase was repeated and passed on from culture to culture throughout the centuries. And, Christians, as well as others, often quote this phrase thinking it is Biblically based, without realizing that it actually originated from pagan mythology.

But, you may say, isn’t it still true? Doesn’t God expect us to work as hard if we were doing it all and yet expect Him to work things out for us? That is what most of us have been taught BUT that isn’t the teaching from Scripture.

http://home.earthlink.net/~gdpifer/God_Helps_Those_Who_Help_Themsleves.html

"Oft and "Tut"? OMIGOD! are you on the right blog?

Kathy, I am one of the millions of readers of your blog. I have not ever felt jealous. I do not know who you were directing you comment at, yet I feel compelled to let you know that I thought your response was unnecessary and came across as being adolescent. Not everyone who has an opinion is out for fame. How many readers you have is no indication of how correct you may or may not be - it is entirely possible your blog may be read for pure amusement. Pride comes b4 a fall. P.S. I like your blog site.

Haiti, like much of Africa, is an incurable basket case. I'm already donating involuntarily through my tax dollars being confiscated by the corrupt Canadian government and dumped into those corrupt cesspools.

Why should I give any more, when I can see with my own eyes that what has been taken from me against my will is doing jackshit to improve anything?

I donate through Kiva to change things. Loans, not welfare. I'm more than willing to help people work to better themselves. I am not willing to feed NGO bureaucracies and corrupt regimes.

Haiti, like much of Africa, is an incurable basket case. I'm already donating involuntarily through my tax dollars being confiscated by the corrupt Canadian government and dumped into those corrupt cesspools.

Why should I give any more, when I can see with my own eyes that what has been taken from me against my will is doing jacksh*t to improve anything?

I donate through Kiva to change things. Loans, not welfare. I'm more than willing to help people work to better themselves. I am not willing to feed NGO bureaucracies and corrupt regimes.

Oz:

'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

'Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.'

Like Kate and the rest of the posters here, you are opposed to these principles of Christ.

Why not just admit it?

Bertrand Russell was a pompous ass. Galbraith was an intellectual lightweight.
They were both "progressives" and thus were biased against anyone who thought people should be independent and accountable.

I posted a link to ESPN's statement about Shirley earlier today, but it doesn't look like it went through.

Speaking for myself Christ and principals
are not synonymous.

Anyway, to get back on topic, the ESPN dude has a right to his opinion without getting fired from his job.

Kate;

I'm starting to see a real parallel between Hatians and our own natives. What with the corrupt leadership and the average person with his hand out, unwilling and unable to change. How can we stop this?

Kate;

I'm starting to see a real parallel between Hatians and our own natives. What with the corrupt leadership and the average person with his hand out, unwilling and unable to change. How can we stop this?

Steve
You have just moved to the head of the class!

The Red Cross, following the "Tainted Blood Scandal" lost the blood biz and as they had so much money, they got into the disaster relief biz.

The Sally Ann have always been doing this work and when there is a disaster, they just up the mouths that they feed. Money going to the Sally Ann is without doubt the best place to spend it. They were feeding over 100,000+ people a day in Haiti BEFORE the earthquake.

Pat

Teachable moment time.
~?24u&i

Apart from teaching people who don't know scripture what the Bible doesn't say, maybe you could teach those of us who do know scripture where it says that believers should give to pagans who have rejected the Biblical God?
I know there are no such scriptures.

2 CORINTHIANS Chapter 6
12 Ye are not *straitened in us(*aligned with us-ed.), but ye are straitened in your own *bowels.(*feelings-ed.)
13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also *enlarged.(*to grow intellectually-ed.)
14 Be ye not unequally YOKED together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

It might be germane to the thread arguments saying that religion compels giving.
I disagree if the religion in question is Christianity or Judaism.

From what I've read, Paul Shirely doesn't appeal to any religious argument at all.

marquis,
They, Haitians, aren't my brother or Christ's brothers either.
Out of ignorance, you take scripture out of context.

JOHN Chapter 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

The idea that all men are brothers is NOT a Christian principle.
Unbelievers are the children of Chaos, whom the ancestors of the Haitian people appealed to to free them from the French.

Jesus consistently shows us the difference between the wheat(Children of God) and the tares(Children of Chaos).

MATTHEW Chapter 15
26 But *he(*Jesus-ed.) answered and said, It is not *meet)*proper-ed.) to take the *children's bread(*Children of Israel-ed.), and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The woman of Caan was a believer, she was faithful.

As a Christian principle, it is not proper to cast pearls before swine or give the bread of the Children of God(Christians) or Israel to *dogs.(*unbelievers-ed)

It is wrong for me to give these truths to you, one who shuns the truth as you do, marquis.
I do it for those Christians who may be confused.

Jesus was not concerned with the struggles of this world.
He could have fed all and healed all that He met, but didn't.
The miracles He did were to demonstrate to those who were waiting for Him that He was the Christ, the Deliverer that God had promised.
His miracles were His bonafides to show that He was sent by God, just as Moses' miracles were his bonafides to the Children of Israel so that they would follow him out of Egypt.

Jesus didn't bleed and give His life on the cross to bribe people with material necessities to come to God.

If bribing people to come to God with material necessities was the plan, then Adam and Eve wouldn't have been turfed out of Eden in the first place.

all Bible quotes are from KJV

I'm not donating, but I'm not going to use the standard excuses about the money being stolen, or the Haitians being in an endless cycle of poverty. I'm not donating because I don't like Haitians. I really don't like Haitians. I get physically ill when the GG comes on the tube. Nobody likes Haitians, not even people from other Caribbean nations.

I've noticed something funny about people from distant lands, who want/need emergency aid. No matter what language they speak, they always ask for help in English. It may be the only English words they can speak, but they do a great job. Especially if there's a camera handy. I'm wondering, does foregn aid translate into Arabic, or French, or maybe Ukranian? Probably not.

Steve asks: "How can we stop this?"

Two words, buddy. Tax. Cut.

You think Haiti would be as f-ed as it is without foreign governments (like OURS for example) propping up the goblins that are keeping things f-ed?

You think Indian organized crime would be running the 6 Nations reserve in Caledonia if the LIBERAL government wasn't keeping it that way? Quite actively I might add, lots of OPP making sure nobody messes with the smoke shacks popping up on other people's front lawns.

I think not, myself.

Then the likes of marqis de troll, 24 and darrel have the gall to come on here and say we're bad mean people because our hearts aren't big like theirs are. Not to mention the ESPN guy gets fired for even broaching the subject, obviously by creeps like the trolls here. Trolls quoting scripture no less, like that's going to convince.

Come and MAKE me give money, you pansies. You know you want to. You sure vote for guys who make me give more for less every year, don't ya?

dp, English is the international language of aviation.

Oz

I'm now working under the impression that you are mentally ill, judging by the contents of your last post.

Be that as it may, it's no excuse for your misrepresentation of Christ's words, and your assertions that your wilfully misguided 'interpretations' are scripturally factual.

You seem to miss the entire point of the woman of Caan incident, as well as the point of the Good Samaritan parable - that in fact, the golden rule as articulated by Christ applies to all people, even those we don't like or aren't supposed to like.

I pity you in that you run about about piling up quotations trying to prove the exact opposite of what Christ meant - merely to justify your own vile selfishness. In that, you are like the Pharisees of Christ's time - a whited sepulcher.

Os: As a Christian principle, it is not proper to cast pearls before swine..

I don't understand you, Oz. My money is going to Christian ministries on the ground who are helping not only their own Christian communities but those outside their community who are in need.

Would you abandon the Haitian Christians?

Ratt 3.47 Just for kicks and giggles, maybe some of you should google the yearly salary for the top administator for the Salvation Army.

I was raised in the S.A. If you find a rich officer, please point him out to me.

A little more of your googling will show that about 12% is spent on administrative costs.

Funnily enough oz the Christian message is one of change not stasis. As Christ Himself said, "I didn't come to condemn the world but to save it". St Paul wrote, "For all have sinned there is none righteous no not one". Therefore while it makes one feel all self righteous when one disparages another the fact is that Christ came to save that which was lost which includes both you and me and all the Haitians. BTW if you used a more modern translation you might have a better idea of what the Christian Gospel is all about. Last time I read the KJV I discovered that there were 14 words that, while still used, had actually reversed their meaning since the writing of the KJV.

U @4.52
As Christians are fond of saying, "God helps those who help themselves"

That one you will have to prove. Christians, who use the Word of God, know it isn't in the Bible.

Here's an answer that might help: It is, in fact, nowhere in Scripture, but was featured in Poor Richard's Alamack in 1757. Attributed to Benjamin Franklin.

On here, I'm finding a lot of quotations a la Obama who tosses out bits and pieces at will.

Why is it that whenever charities shill for dollars on TV they always show grubby kids in dirty clothes, in a dirty hovel in a dirty neighborhood? A person may be dirt poor, but is that any reason to live in a sh*thole rather than tidy it up? The first step to improving the situation is to take care of what you currently have, not sit around looking sad because life dealt you crappy cards!
On the native issue, I have family that are 1st Nations... one day I suggested to my sister-in-law that "if the country wanted to break the cycle of poverty on the reservations, the best way to do so would be to encourage the young to get a post-secondary education (as per their treaty) and cut off those who didn't want to...after two or three generations (providing their leadership supported and pushed for this) we would be able to cut off all the funding because if they took advantage of a FREE education they could ALL be doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc. At this point they would no longer be "disadvantaged" and could pay for their own kids to go to university like the rest of us do....People who would be adults when this program started would not be included in any financial changes, but could still participate if they wanted. So in a nutshell, if you're an adult, you aren't affected, but you are encouraged to improve yourself... if you've just graduated high school, continue your education (paid for by the taxpayer) or you get NOTHING! We do this for a few generations, then we can shut down Indian Affairs because at this point 1st Nations could be running the whole country." To this proposition she replied "But who would look after us?"

Roseberry @4.18
Haiti over Darfur? Over AIDS sufferers in Africa? Over those who suffer and die daily in Calcutta or other cities?

Christians are already there working. I've been supporting Canadian AIDS ministry, and a wonderful Canadian ministry in Calcutta for years.
Plus others.

Don't sidestep the issue. There's not a hot spot anywhere that Christians aren't sending their donations, which are over and above their tithes.

A small denomination in Canada has 15 congregations in Haiti that they assist. More than the total across Canada.

Atric @5.56
I also believe Christ said " The Lord helps those who help themselves".

Jesus' words are in red in many Bibles. If you don't have one, go to the library or 2nd-hand store and when you get the chapter and verse, be sure to let me know.

"Christians are already there working". Too true gellen I read an article written by an CBC reporter who became a Christian because as traveled the world crisis spots the first people there to help were Christians. In fact once in Africa his airplane ran into mechanical problems and they were forced to land at an abandoned airstrip. Five minutes after they landed a Christian pastor showed up with a pot of tea!

Oz
I'm now working under the impression that you are mentally ill, judging by the contents of your last post.
~marquis

marquis, I'm working under the impression that you and those who think like you believe that history started on the day you were born.

Be that as it may, the idea that Christians should give to unbelievers or even other Christians on the other side of the world is a new idea which is unsupported by a cursory study of the nearly 2000 years of Christians history.

Yes, the apostle Paul did take up a one time collection for relief of the saints during the siege of Jerusalem by Roman forces but that was a one shot deal, not a principle or some sort of template commended for further reproduction.

It simply wasn't a principle or practise any more than having female priests or homosexuals in the clergy.
Those things are new ideas that are unsupported by scripture.

Last time I read the KJV I discovered that there were 14 words that, while still used, had actually reversed their meaning since the writing of the KJV.
~Joe

Really, Joe.
Words don't reverse their meaning, people who don't know any better bastardize the language.
That's how you end up with languages like Creole.
(In my lifetime I've actually seen the word bad used to mean the word good.)

ISAIAH Chapter 5
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Think of all those commercials that use the word decadent to mean a good thing but the real meaning of decadent is death oriented, to decay or rot.
When I say a thing, practice, or person is decadent it isn't a compliment or term of approval or admiration.
It's a condemnation.

The KJV is the most accurate translation of the Bible in the English language and the only one that has a clear cut reference to the Holy Trinity.

1 JOHN Chapter 5
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Find that in whichever corrupted version you use, Joe.
It's unfortunate for you that you can't comprehend the older English language.
Maybe you should have studied Shakespeare harder in school, or maybe joined a denomination that uses the KJV exclusively.

I have the Interlinear KJV Bible in the original languages; Hebrew, Aramaic, and New Testament Greek too.

Bottom line: Giving to places like Haiti isn't a Biblical imperative and those who say it is are lying.

Oz

What part of "do yunto others as you would have them do unto you", which Christ specified was the basis for all the Law, do you not understand?

You simply refuse to grasp the essentiality of Christ's message.

Your comments about Paul or females or homosexuality have no meaning for me. They merely show you are a Pharisee and that you have scales on your eyes. Christ said nothing regarding females or homosexuals in the clergy - it didn't concern Him.

In Christ's words and in Christ's words only is Christianity.

marquis, too bad for you there weren't any Christians around when Jesus spoke those words to the Jews.
There weren't any Christians until the 2nd Chapter of Acts.

Therein lies your problem, you take words out of their context of time and setting, misunderstanding them.

Image how a masochist would act on those words that you just quoted.
Should masochists go around inflicting pain on other people because that is what they would want "done unto themselves"?

I almost went to a concert thursday p.m. at a local venue and it promptly slipped my mind.

then friday I learned it was a hastily organized thing for Haiti relief.

my direct donations to Haiti relief thus far?

0.00

for a number of reasons.

Yes oz words do reverse their meaning. Awful means terrible today. In the time of Shakespeare it meant full of awe. Wherefore art thou does not mean where are you it means Why are you. Thou was the familiar not the formal. You was the formal and not the familial. Oh and by the way Lucifer was not a name of Satan it was a Latin word that meant light bearer. If you think any language doesn't change over time please do a quick translation of Beowulf for me it was written in English.

Like Phantom, I've involuntarily given aid to Haiti through my taxes and it pisses me off. I have a limited amount of money to give to charity and I give money to support those who fight against statism and to preserve freedom. My donations are made with after tax dollars and I don't get to write off these donations. I help out people when they need it if my financial assistance is going to help them become productive individauls again. The only reason I can see in helping someone who is totally dysfunctional is if they're family.

People who trot out the pitifull looking emaciated 12 year old urchins don't seem to be familiar with the concept of "more is different". I see no problem with helping out a single individual who is injured and that response is automatic in most people even if that person is a junkie with endocarditis who will just start shooting up heroin again with water from a toilet if that is the only source of water they have to mix the heroin with. I've done my share of treating such individuals as a resident and went from a point of view where I wouldn't consider it my role to be judgmental to thinking that the best policy would be hand out free 100% pure heroin and let them overdose in peace. When I work in the hospital I don't have a choice in terms of whom I treat but such individuals sure as hell aren't part of my private practice.

The results of a few thousand junkies in Vancouver do have benefits in training physicians as they are walking cornucopias of pathology. This small faction of the Vancouver population has made MRSA one of the most common infections in downtown Vancouver and in the last year I practiced there any painfull boil I saw in a patient was treated as MRSA until proven otherwise. These infections are a direct result of just treating thousands of junkies with endocarditis or serious skin infections with loads of antibiotics every time they come into hospital instead of just letting them drop dead. I won't get into HIV, that well known Haitian export of the late 1970's or why home and vehicle breakins are so commonplace in Vancouver.

A few thousand junkies in Vancouver who won't help themselves have had effects far out of proportion to their numbers; more is different. Now consider the situation of millions of people who are sick but totally unable to help themselves; ie the situation in Haiti. Helping them out is just as futile as treating a sick junkie. All that our assistance has been doing is to allow them to breed and produce even more totally dependant people.

ET is probably right about the power structure in Haiti, but wiping out those 30 families wouldn't make a bit of difference to how the population lives. Social workers and other groups whose livelyhood depends on the existence of a permanent victim class must be salivating over the employment opportunites available to them if Haiti becomes a protectorate of the US or some other country, but the cost to the US would be enormous. I'm sure that any country which takes over Haiti will be villified as "colonialist" and terrorist attacks will increase.

The only society that comes close to matching Haiti's pathology is the Gaze strip and it's no coincidence that it is a victimocracy just like Haiti. Israel's solution has been to wall it off and bomb the crap out of them if the chaos in the Gaza strip spills beyond its borders. We should do the same thing with Haiti. Those Haitians who are organized and determined enough to build a boat and sail to Florida should be welcomed as those are the ones that are most likely to be able to be part of a modern society. I'm sure I'll be accused of being heartless for these comments, but I view it as the societal equivalent of triage and I'll continue to support causes which are not ultimately futile. Those people who are young and idealistic are free to learn their own lessons; just as I couldn't comprehend doctors who made comments to me as a resident like "WTF are you spending so much time on this useless junkie" until, through experience, I realized why they thought that way.

marquis... you quote srcripture out of context, act all smug and then I'll bet you turn around and support the murder of the unborn. Oh wait...it's not murder is it...it's pro choice. Yeah, that's it.

Well, this hasn't been one of SDA's finer moments.

If your aim here was to convey the message to the lefties that the right doesn't give damn, you've succeeded.

Silence and the sound of crickets would have been a far better reponse to Shirley's poorly considered remarks.

gellen@12:42 AM

Didn't think I was "side-stepping" the issue; yes, there are Christians working (and most often doing most of the heavy lifting) in countless crisis situations throughout the world. But no person today can take on every crisis that flashes across his screen, even with tithing and super-tithing. As none of us can give to every deserving cause, it is unseemly to judge people over their support of one group of sufferers rather than another. Where government sends our tax money is a political issue -- and many of the arguments made here are political ones -- but where you and I distribute our alms is our business alone.

For those who are bashing Christians and others who are talking about what is an acceptable "Christian" response, the parable of the "Good Samaritan" is appropriate:

- buddy was robbed and beaten
- countrymen passed by and left him in his misery
- an "enemy" stopped, took pity on him, cleaned his wounds, took him to an inn and paid for his stay
- BUT THEN THE GOOD SAMARITAN LEFT

The Samaritan didn't stay with buddy for 30 YEARS...which is how long World Vision has ALREADY been in Haiti...30 YEARS! And Haiti was still a rotting corpse of a nation.

If a drunk gets hit by a car (it was his own fault), we take him to the hospital, nurse him back to health and then release him to take care of himself.

That's what should be done in Haiti. Yes, the extent of the devestation caused by the earthquake was THEIR fault...they are basically drunken gamblers...but we should go in, tend to their wounds, get them back to their feet...and then let them fend for themselves.

I believe that THIS is what a "good" Christian should do.

THAT type of response doesn't require a billion dollars. Enough charity has already been raised.

If you want to FIX Haiti, then their government needs to be overthrown and governors need to be installed who are controlled by a democratic nation.

Joe: "I read an article written by an CBC reporter who became a Christian because as traveled the world crisis spots the first people there to help were Christians."

Joe, I'd love to read that article. Do you know where I can access it -- or who the reporter is?

I have a friend, a former war photographer, who on a tour of Uganda at it's worst, said that the only oasis of sanity he encountered was an orphanage for blind children run by a group of penniless nuns. He hasn't become a Christian, but he's totally aware that Christians are the first responders to disasters around the world.

Apparently, after its filming, quite a few of the actors in Zeffereli's Jesus of Nazareth, including Olivia Hussey who played the part of Mary, converted to Christianity. The Gospel is powerful, the Word of God is powerful and life-changing. It's too bad so many modern secularists give it such a bum rap, showing only their arrogance and ignorance.

I think JMD's 1:31p post was an excellent one, and one that I agree with, wholeheartedly. Long-term aid to these corrupt basketcases usually goes awry, and tends to line the pockets of the dictators in charge. Misplaced "caring" of leftrolls like maquis would have this go on ad infinitum without relief, and they would be the ones usually harshly opposed to ousting the corruptoids in charge. That's why they bleat the most about Iraq, where the citizens are far better off with saddam in a shallow grave, than they ever were when he was alive. Thus, long-term "aid" to these places is of questionable value; look at the $billions thrown at Africa over the last 50 years and whether or not the countries are better off today. Perhaps a few less wasted dollars in that direction and a few more CIA-inspired palace coups would have benefited the poor devils at the bottom in a much better way.

I have a hard time applying "the Lord helps those who help themselves" when I try to apply it to critically injured or orphaned children, however. I can't quite force myself to look at their misery through a political lens; I find it tends to take the human element out of things. Nor do I have the desire or the scriptural expertise to bring Christ's teachings into this; yet I have a bit of difficulty in picturing Him strolling through the suffering and miserable in Haiti while tut-tutting that He would do little for them because their government was a corrupt basket case. That takes more than even my semi-practicing Catholic status permits to fathom.

mhb23re
at gmail d0t calm

Roseberry @8.45
Sidestepping or not, the whole "I don't donate-I do donate" discussion began with the first of Kate's postings after the event.
Either the first, or one of the first, poster announced he was not giving, and suggested "and none of my household".
Then the Scrooge mentality took over and we are now still discussing it.
Those of us who give are not judging those who don't give from their cheque books.
We could do with some equal time, though.
No matter how well-meaning the govt is, their aid will not arrive immediately. The Christian charities with people already on the ground are bringing help as quickly as possible. The devastation has slowed it down to the point of desperation for all.
If you have a 1000 children in your orphanage and the food is gone and you see no hope of any arriving in time, what do you do? Pray and expect manna from Heaven? Or pray that your brothers-in-Christ will arrive before they starve to death?
Each one of us answers this for ourselves.

batb sorry I am lousy with names and this fellow's name eludes me. However the article was published in the Presbyterian Record I would guess 4 - 5 years ago. Yes the Christian Gospel is extremely powerful and only fools discount it.

Oz
1 John 5: 6-8

Jesus Christ who came by water and blood not with water only, but with water and blood; with the Spirit as another witness- since the Spirit is the truth- so that there are three witnesses, the Spirit the water and the blood, and all three of them agree.

As translated in the Jerusalem Bible which happens to be one of my favorite translations because it challenges my North American biases.

I don't have any issues with those who send cash through the goodness of their hearts, I worry if the money ends up in the pocket of some dictator.

The Red Cross, following the "Tainted Blood Scandal" lost the blood biz and as they had so much money, they got into the disaster relief biz.

The Sally Ann have always been doing this work and when there is a disaster, they just up the mouths that they feed. Money going to the Sally Ann is without doubt the best place to spend it. They were feeding over 100,000+ people a day in Haiti BEFORE the earthquake.

Pat
Posted by: Pat at January 29, 2010 10:28 PM

Remarkably ignorant post. Red Cross has been in the aid game since its inception. The blood services were fairly unique to Canada and RC took it on, because practically nobody wanted to.

SA made a policy decision about 10 years ago, about the same time as NGOs began to be contracted out by governments and the UN to deliver "social justice", to become the leading asid agency in the world. They literally started going head to head competitively with the others.

But the bigger story and issue is the money. The population of Haiti is about 10 million souls. To date, substantially more than 1 billion dollars cash has been donated or committed to the relief effort. That is $100,000,000 per Haitian.
That bears repeating: $100,000,000 per Haitian!. More could be done for Haitians by simply giving them the money than by all the containers of crap that will mostly wind up in a landfill because of an inability to distribute.

The first 10 cargo planes that landed in PauP should have been full of bulldozers, not media, recon teams and dignitaries.

There is no further benefit to be gained by further donating. The effort needs to be made to use ALL of the money presently committed.

Like the Obama porkulus plan, the money committed will only circulate amongst those who are in the aid business- only a fraction will get to the ground.

At the end of this, every Haitian should have the cash to start a business, build a swank house, send his kids to university wherever in the world they want, and have a retirement nest egg all of the rest of us could only dream about. If they don't, every donor needs to ask the question to every government and NGO, "Where did the money go?"

Holy jumpin' Skip. I hope your better half does the family budget.

1 billion divided by 10 million equals 100. That's $100 per Haitian.

I'll admit, that's not chicken feed, but with other expenses involved, it's not going to make anyone rich, except the aid brokers, of course.

WOW, "hit a nerve" alright.

Questions for the tender-hearted scolds above:

1. Should Haiti be colonized?

2. Should Paul Shirley have been fired?

"Holy jumpin' Skip. I hope your better half does the family budget.

1 billion divided by 10 million equals 100. That's $100 per Haitian.

I'll admit, that's not chicken feed, but with other expenses involved, it's not going to make anyone rich, except the aid brokers, of course. "

Yipes... :( Certainly looksd like I did disengage there ... wow. Even for me, that's bad :)

This is a bit late, as I just now followed this thread.

After reading the vile spew of OZ, and some of the other pecksniffs above, my atheism has been strongly reinforced. Thanks folks, these occasional exposures to insanity are really helpful.

I'm late to comment too.

I'm pleased remarks from some cheap buggers here deriding aid to Haiti are not representative of real Conservatives, including our current government, and people like George W Bush.

As Bush said, it's heartening that disasters like these can often bring out the best in people. Not here, obviously, but most people.

I don't know how many posting here have ever experienced a category 7 earthquake. I haven't, thanks to the fact I was lucky enough to have been born here in Canada. In talking to a couple of people I know who have experienced major quakes, the first question they asked was "how long did it go on for?" When I said I read it lasted more than a minute, they went white.

That kind of earthquake would have caused major damage and significant loss of life in any large populated centre.

If you don't want to help, then don't. I wish some wouldn't justify their own miserable hateful responses by claiming they hold Conservative values. Or Christian ones. Neither could be further from the truth. It's clearly all about you. Maybe something really bad happened to you in your childhood. Maybe you had lousy parents.

A heartfelt thanks to all who are doing what they can to help.

"Questions for the tender-hearted scolds above:

1. Should Haiti be colonized?

2. Should Paul Shirley have been fired?"

1. That is an entirely separate discussion and a red herring.

2. Probably not. But someone working for a COMMERCIAL sports network has to be pretty dense not to connect the dots between upsetting market share and losing advertising sponsorship.

"Talk about being born on third base and acting like you just hit a triple."

I love baseball analogies. Although coolpacific's scolding was way off the mark, the analogy was entertaining.

Despite intellectual arguments, when we see our fellow man in need compassion demands we respond. To think we must interview the person in need, 20 question style, to see if there beliefs line up with our ideology in order to decide if they are worthy of our help is simply ludicrous. Even a four year old can understand that clarifying beliefs is just an excuse not to help. Shame on you who espouse such ridiculous standards. Come judgment day, I think you will be hard pressed to come up with a legitimate excuse for not helping.

"...That kind of earthquake would have caused major damage and significant loss of life in any large populated centre..."

The 1989 Loma Prieta (SF Bay Area) earthquake had the same 7.0 magnitude and hit an urbanized area with a population of about 6 million at the time. Total deaths were 63.

"...That kind of earthquake would have caused major damage and significant loss of life in any large populated centre..."

The 1989 Loma Prieta (SF Bay Area) earthquake had the same 7.0 magnitude and hit an urbanized area with a population of about 6 million at the time. Total deaths were 63.