OK, seriously folks; how do we unfund the UN? How do we begin the process of getting Canada to withdraw its support for this corrupt organization?

What is wrong with you people?
It's quite clear their warnings saved 64,749 lives.

If I went to the Dollar Store on the corner and stole something, they would have called cops and I was charged with theft under $5000.

Why double standard?

Don't forget the next round of swine flu is just around the corner....oh maybe not. But it might come back next season....oh maybe not. But but but..... It's global warming's fault. But but but...

Our family doctor is still trying to persuade us to vaccinate everyone... 'cause wave 3 or 4 or 5 or whatever is right around the corner and it's going to be worst than ever.

Asking her about the availability, she replies, "We have more than we need."

Indeed.

Hopefully,global warming won't be accelerated by the hole in the ozone layer,thus increasing the chances of a world wide flu pandemic and earthquakes and tsunamis.

The oldest trick in the world, scare the crap out of people then sell them your snake oil to save them.

Christian Churches used hell for this and it worked for centuries.

This theory may also work in elections if we tell voters to vote for the right leaning candidate or they may wind up with an Obama or Trudeau.

Does anyone know how many dollars are tied up in surplus H1N1 vaccine in Canada? How much has GlaxoSmithKline been paid for vaccine produced from it's Ste-Foy, Que. plant? More stimulus spending for Quebec perhaps?

Good morning Kate,

I think you need to file or headline this kind of stuff along with all the envirofraud as: "The greens who cried wolf."

Frankly, I will never have any respect/fear for anything these people trumpet ever again.

Abe Forman: "Christian Churches used hell for this and it worked for centuries."

Tell us some lies, Abe.
...-

"Iraq crime lab bomb kills 21
Arab Times - ‎9 hours ago‎
The timing of the blast, a day after Iraq hanged Saddam Hussein's cousin and stalwart “Chemical Ali,” prompted speculation that the latest attacks were".

Abe:

What century would that be?

Not the one I live in and not the church I attend.

Unless one is frightened of being knowledgeable about human behavior, there's nothing to fear.

Abe is not lying, someone else does.

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/hell.htm

I have this theory.

Last year, the "flu" that came around killed a whack of old people and made a lot of people sick for over a month. The local hospitals were calling it the "100 day flu" because you'd get a little better, then crash, then get better, then crash, etc. Personally I was sick from mid Jan to almost April. Not deathly ill, just dragged out, nauseous, etc.

Bottom line, it was a bad one, people died and the WHO guys never said jack about it.

This year they go WAY overboard with the scary swine flu and the "normal" flu mostly, I theorize, because they missed the boat so massively last year.

Plus, let us not forget that quite a few people did die in Mexico when this thing broke out, so there was some justification in the early stages.

Of course I could be wrong and they're just a pack of idiots crying WOLF!!! to justify their bloated paychecks and perks. Shame we had to waste a billion bucks on a false alarm, either way.

But on the bright side, we did discover just exactly how utterly broken our national risk response mechanism is, and how totally the Liberals sold us out back in the 1990's. It shouldn't cost a billion bucks to inoculate everybody against something like this, and it shouldn't take as long as it did for them to get the stuff made and out there.

And for God's sake what idiot set up the clinics? OMG! Let's all stand out in the rain lined up like cattle waiting for our shot kids! It'll be fun!

We know who's @sses need kicking. I for one am going to be kicking them quite hard until they fix this mess. The warning is cheap at the price you ask me, at least nobody died.

I think Abe is saying that the methods used to manipulate people has not changed much over the centuries. Civilization, education and advanced technology will never completely overcome humans natural susceptibility to fast talking, fear mongering 'experts'.

My friend just got H1N1. When I asked him how he got it, as he got his vaccine shot in Oct. He said his doctor told him that 15% of people who got vaccinated would still get H1N1.
As a lot less then 15% of people who were not vaccinated (myself included)got H1N1, what was in the vaccine?

maz2 is going straight to hell for lying and doing internet 'research' while on pay time collecting a paycheque from his employer.

Fear is a normal, logical approach to stimulous. When we do not comprehend a situation we fear the worst. Training helps to overcome this natural condition leading to the guys that do stuff most people would not think of like soldiers, firefighters and stuff.
The media sells more if you are afraid. You want to learn and stay in control of your situation. At risk people need the vaccine and they should have it if only that it is cheaper out of the hospital. A pandemic covers dead air, dead trees and shows concern, compassion and $$.
What do I know.

methinks maz2 is retired.

what was in the vaccine?
~Alan

Mercury, aluminum, and formaldehyde to name a few of the nasty ingredients.
People may not, probably won't, get immunity from the vaccine, but they're guaranteed to get the toxins in the delivery fluid.

Well we know for sure that maz2 isn't/wasn't Catholic. My ears are still ringing from the list of all the actions, thoughts and impulses that were going to send me straight to hell. [And maybe they will yet - who knows?]

"My friend just got H1N1. When I asked him how he got it, as he got his vaccine shot in Oct. He said his doctor told him that 15% of people who got vaccinated would still get H1N1. As a lot less then 15% of people who were not vaccinated (myself included)got H1N1, what was in the vaccine?"

Well, there is the selection bias in that people who work in hospitals disproportionately get vaccinated. I don't know in what regard, but if there's that many vaccines left over (hurrah for nationalised medicine!) there may well be a very low portion in the non-medical community.

The other group that gets a higher proportion of vaccines is the elderly, who have necessarily weaker immune systems anyhow.

Well, since people were vaccinated, small wonder so few died. Are you disappointed?

I sure like your headline pun, Kate :).

cal2,

Thank you, that makes sense, retirement is a good excuse for paranoia. I'll lay off.

"Well, since people were vaccinated, small wonder so few died. Are you disappointed?"

Just like Obama's stimulus package saved 2 million jobs. Didn't create any... oh never mind, lefty.

Estimates driving the H1N1 scare were that 90,000 people would be dead from it by the end of October, which was supposedly the height of Flu season.

The vaccine was released in mid-November, and most people who go the vaccine didn't get it until December.

Still, a huge proportion of the population didn't bother and the death toll is quite low.
The efficacy of the vaccine itself is now, reasonably, in question by a lot of skeptical people.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of the population subset (climate skeptics) overlaps with the population subset (H1N1 vaccine skeptics) vs sheeple who believe in the climate crisis who got the H1N1 vaccine.

"Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them.
In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know."
~Michael Crichton-State of Fear

Climate skeptics who got the H1N1 vaccine are sufferers of the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect.

note that's a billion *pounds* not dollars.

my GP was spot on when he 'sort of' hinted H1N1 vaccination was unnecessary by mentioning for instance that he wasn't getting it done.

how long will the gullible sheeple continue to fall in line when the bosses cry wolf?

maz2 perhaps your church is one of those liberal new age emporiums where if it feels good do it.

Christian churches use fear and ignorance to control it's followers ... same as Socialists do.

What's your real problem?

I know this a redundant question but shouldn't someone ask why no reporter ever bothered to ask if any WHO officials might have conflicts-of-interest? (Instead they just spent the best part of a year terrorising their readers/viewers.) After all, you know the question would be asked if it was a meteorologist who said something radical, like hurricanes are not caused by global warnming.

Making judgements upon unknowns is pandemic.....AGW...H1N1.

It is difficult to assess whether the pandemic risk was over-estimated or whether factors such as vacinations, rainfall, precipitation mitigated it.
Even the huge mitigation of hand-washing, hand sanitizers crowd avoidance is impossible to estimate.
Centuries past, cartographers would label unknown regions with "here be dragons."
It is just as foolish to mark "here be no dragons."

Send the bill to MSM they are the ones who riled up the masses with their manufactured hysteria not the WHO.

They should modify the virus and use it to make beer......

2 cents maz2 doesn't have an intelligent response to Abe's question.

As much as this age was supposed to be the age of knowlege, it has now become the millennium of science fraud.

It is just as foolish to mark "here be no dragons."
~sasquatch

Ok, we know there are no such thing as dragons.
We do know there are such things as pandemics.

It is irresponsible to claim there will be a pandemic when there isn't one.(see the boy who cried wolf story)

Doubly, it is irresponsible to pretend you have a solution to problem, that may or may not exist, when you don't.

http://tinyurl.com/48e7yn

Flu vaccines don't work.

Posted by: Abe Froman at January 27, 2010 1:29 PM

On the contrary.

Abraham, considered to be one of the brilliant men of ancient times, saw that human beings often acted in ignorance and with hatred toward one another.

He set out to counter these tribal attitudes through the promotion of wisdom and love, central tenets in first the Judaic, then the Christian religions.

That is the tradition in which my form of Christianity, which can trace its roots back to apostolic times, practises.

Therefore, your statement that Christian churches use fear and ignorance to control its (notice the correct spelling) followers is incorrect.

I could safely say that the feelings of control you were exposed to is more an indication that you were exposed to a cult (of which there are many which claim to be Christian) rather than a true church.

The only control we practise in our church is self-control which is a function of our God-given free will.

AGW is definitely a cult which can be traced back through the bloody 20th century and its control-freak philosophies of marxism and national socialism inspired by Darwinist thought. AGW is just another apparition of the control through fear philosophies.

Christianity as I know it does not fall within those definitions. It seeks self-control, not control over other human beings.

Can you prove me wrong?

We better hope the excitable, over-the-top reactionary, Liberal MP Doctor Carolyn Bennett hears about how the "Swine Flew".

Thousands can also be killed by terrorists too, but we should always pay heed to those warnings, right?

Kaplan, if the government used the exact same approach to Islam as it did to H1N1 I'd be happy.

syf, haven't both the CoE and the 'green' Pope been actively linking AGW and morality? Isn't that insinuating that being skeptical of AGW is immoral/sinful?

BTW, I believe that Anglicans are heavily invested in Al Gore's company - GIM - but I am sure their financial interests have no impact on their religious interests. After all, they own oil stocks, too.

What happened here is actually very simple. The UN, Cdn gov't, U.S. gov't, etc. had no idea what the real demand for the vaccine was going to be. The only way for them to determine demand was through the profit/loss mechanism. So they played politics. Ordering way too much was politically paleatable as opposed to not ordering enough. Of course, in order to sell all those vaccines, they had to scare the crap out of people with a whole bunch of nonsense and propaganda.

People will forget about this very soon and the whole stupid cycle will start all over again. Let the looting continue ...

Bennett:

My late father-in-law was an Anglican deacon.

I can attest that I have seen that particular denomination become increasingly guided by the values of the world rather than traditional Christian values of separating worldly and spiritual realms (give onto Ceasar ...).

Therefore, in my humble opinion, Anglicanism can best be described as having cult-like qualities that conflict with traditional teachings.

My late father-in-law believed he should be a good stewart of the land before he retired as a farmer in southwest Saskatchewan.

I have no problem with living a minimalist lifestyle (self-control) but I would never try to impose my values on anybody else like political movements cloaking themselves in Christian legitimacy.

There's a folksy saying (in an old-style merchant's store) that may be appropriate for this situation: In God we trust. All others pay cash.

Clever, Abe. You managed to highjack the thread. Chuckling up your sleeve maybe?

h1n1. yet another instance where scientific consensus was wrong. Of course, we all know that the media would never hold them to account for this, any more than they will 10 years from not look the AGW types in the eye and ask them why the earth is getting cooler?

Somehow the screams of the MSM and social do-gooders complaining that the entire population cannot be inoculated at once now seems so far away. Health departments at both federal and provincial levels were being chastised for not doing enough and fast enough for what turns out to be a non-event.

I'd like to know how much was spent on this exercise and how much of the vaccine was wasted, not used or expired. rumour has it that they are flogging the vaccine to the Haitians, as if they don't have enough to worry about.

We also never have nuclear wars or terrorist attacks, so let's never prepare for those either.

/sarcasm

I know someone (with previous heart trouble) who was talked into the H1N1 shot 3 weeks ago by the US VA.

It put him in the hospital (again) for a while. He said it triggered a heart attack or something similar.

You are insane if you listen to these ghouls

I'm not sure what the issue is? Why not just re-label the extra vaccines and send to Africa as some kind of malaria treatment. No one thinks business anymore. Instead of spoiling they could actually put it to use, maybe prevent the next outbreak out of Africa.

paper scissors, that etiology is extremely unlikely, and bordering on ridiculous.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here - and bear with me, because i know this sounds craaaazzzzyy:

What's more likely is your friend (with admitted previous heart trouble) - and stop me if this sounds nuts - HAD A HEART ATTACK because of his previous condition.

you know, the weak ticker and all.

But yeah, seriously thoug, you guys, also, I knew this one guy, got the swine flu shot- BAM - HIT BY A CAR THE NEXT DAY.

I know, right!! That sh*t is dangerous!!!

Those people I know who got the vaccine seemed to suffer more than those who didn't get the vaccine. Quite a number of vaccine recipients also got the flu and usually a worse case of it and there were quite a few who had other physical ailments like sore arms, backs legs etc.

Oh and BTW Abe how would you know what goes on in a Christian Church; its obvious you haven't been in one for years.

The funny thing about arrested pandemics and dragons is the lack of data.
What IS interesting is the similarity between the European and Chinese concepts of dragons. Perhaps someday we will discover them----maybe we already have....did the Chinese interpret dino' bones for dragon bones?
My proverb has nothing to do with dragons but everything about making assumptions without proof....a situation I deduce agreement from OZ.
What we must be vigilant about is whether or not WHO had factual justification for sounding the alarm. If they did...kudoos...If they didn't then medical science is discredited like "climate science."
We do have good reason to be suspicious----the UN is involved.

The funny thing about arrested pandemics and dragons is the lack of data.
What IS interesting is the similarity between the European and Chinese concepts of dragons. Perhaps someday we will discover them----maybe we already have....did the Chinese interpret dino' bones for dragon bones?
My proverb has nothing to do with dragons but everything about making assumptions without proof....a situation I deduce agreement from OZ.
What we must be vigilant about is whether or not WHO had factual justification for sounding the alarm. If they did...kudoos...If they didn't then medical science is discredited like "climate science."
We do have good reason to be suspicious----the UN is involved.

saquatch,
I think if we could reign in the crisis mongering on the part of the MSM then a lot of trouble and expense would be avoided.

In most cases, the politicians are reacting to the MSM coverage while the statements/positions of the most excitable scientific and medical experts are blown out of proportion in the media.

Naturally the more circumspect experts sit in silence on the sidelines and are ignored altogether.

It's not like the vaccine actually prevented any deaths or anything, right Kate?

Love to have heard you would have said when the polio vaccine was invented.

Better to be safe than sorry? Not at SDA!

Joe @ 6:58, I agree, my wife and I got the swine flu vaccine. It never bothered her, but I had flu like symptoms for about 10 days. We talked ourselves into getting the shot because of what happened to our son's father-in-law, a healthy 57 year old. Without going into detail, it is sufficient to say that after three months, he is still dealing with complications such as double pneumonia that resulted.

Polio and influenza are not the same virus.
Conflating the two is absurd.

People in "high risk" groups were getting annual flu shots before the H1N1 virus.

How many people were getting annual polio shots?
None.
This fact should highlight a significant difference in the two diseases.

While we have copious proof of the effectiveness of the polio vaccine and other one time vaccines, there is no proof that any flu vaccine has every saved a single life.

http://tinyurl.com/48e7yn

marquis---when's the last time you washed your hands?

"Liberal MP Hedy Fry wants H1N1 clinic for MPs" I am fading fast shaking all those greasy hands. I am getting dizzy to the point that I see burning crosses.....

I don't know if that is the real deal Lowell Green back at 12:57, but if it is, regulars to SDA should know that Lowell Green has a right leaning, voice of sanity, open line talk show on CFRA radio in Ottawa weekday mornings.
And if it really is Lowell Green and not some troll using his name the fact that Doowleb at 1:07 calling him a lefty has me LMAO.

Oz @ 7:14 PM- re complicity of the MSM.
Not to minimize their involvement in the hysteria concerning the 'looming' pandemic, but in my opinion much more damage was done by the incessant shreiking of one Dr. Carolyn Bennett and the rest of the seditious loonies in the (cough,cough) 'Loyal Opposition".
Of course, the MSM was sure to take it and run, since it fit in perfectly with their agenda to discredit the Conservatives.
Idiots!

marquis>

At least you will be happy to know that due to the US open border policy in the south; all kinds of diseases once eradicated from North America are making a big comeback. Like Polio & Leprosy.

That's the biggest benefit to jumping the immigration queue and it’s mandatory health checks.

It’s obviously much better to force everyone to stick an unproven mercury laden needle in their arm than looking at the wider issue.

Force is good – questions are wrong, 2+2 = 5…………………..

If I may also add Knight 99...TB is back in this country and not so long ago it had been eradicated.

The efficiancy of polio vaccines, mmr vaccines, etc. has been proven long term. The effectiveness of flu vaccines has long been in question. A good part of the problem with seasonal flu vaccines is that they are given to those with weak immune systems, the elderly, the young and the chronically ill, and there systems do not have a proper immune response and build up anti bodies, which is required to become resistant. It doesn't look like the swine flu vaccine saved lives, considering that there was suppose to be 90,000 deaths by October and most people did not recieve any vaccine until Nov/Dec. Also only 30-35 percent of the population received it. They have a surplus now and they are having "mini clinics" in small communitees trying to get rid of the stuff. It was a panic over nothing just like Y2K, Sars, bird flu etc. that only causes us all to be more cynical.

The Glengarrian said: "TB is back in this country and not so long ago it had been eradicated."

Oh yes it is my friend! Imported specially from Africa, y'know. On airplanes! (Recycled cabin air, anyone?)

Not just the normal, run of the mill, curable TB either. This is the new and improved drug-resistant version. As in, y'all ain't going to get over it. Don't get any on ya.

Meanwhile, our provincial health dorks just spent a billion bucks CDN on the flu. Purely as a buttocks covering measure. Awe inspiring, ain't it?

My shares in GSK have done ok. I fail to see the problem :)

Posted by: Call me Infidel>

"My shares in GSK have done ok"

I'm waiting for Blackwater to go public! Now there's where the moneys at these days.....................

Abe>

A friendly word of advice when posting comments here.

SDA is a great conservative, right leaning blog site. Just never, ever mention Christianity unless you are quoting the bible directly and only then to make a point from the biblical perspective. Any other religions are fair game.

Sometimes you need to self censor to be allowed into social discussion without being persecuted.

knight:

Any statement written here is subject to clarification.

Particularly statements of a sweeping generalization nature that bear no resemblance to the experiences of another person. To question is to learn.

Would that be OK with you? I know you're open-minded enough to agree.

BTW, I did not get H1N1 shots, they're too risky for my liking.

The precautionary principle has a cost? Who would have thunk?

What worries me the most is that most GP's in Canada aren't going to file reports about the severe vaccine reactions that people got to H1N1 vaccine. I've got a list of patients some of whom were hospitalized but every time I look at the 5 page vaccine side effect form to fill out for each patient, surfing SDA is much preferable.

I have never during the 20 years that I've been in medicine seen as bad a vaccine as the squalene adjuvented H1N1 vaccine. Perhaps some of the WWII era vaccines that veterens who now refuse to be vaccinated tell me about were worse. Squalene is used in an experimental rat model of rheumatoid arthritis and I had one patient who developed severe arthritis from the vaccine and the rheumatologist I consulted had also seen cases. Fortunately my patient has done far better than the Swedish rats that are used in the studies. I suspect that the morbidity caused by the Canadian H1N1 vaccine is significantly greater than influenza. Because the vaccine was in such short supply when the wave of influenza hit where I practice, antivirals were the primary treatments and they worked very well if people came in immediately when they felt they were getting the flu. For reasons that are totally inscrutable, the local hospital ER refused to prescribe tamiflu to patients with influenza and instead lectured them about coming to ER while they were infected.

What this influenza epidemic has taught us is that we know SFA about how influenza epidemics behave. H1N1 was around in my practice area starting in July. I'd really like to hear an explanation from some the the public health "experts" about why a patient who is sitting around a crowded clinic waiting room hacking away for a couple of hours doesn't infect everyone there during the summer. The first H1N1 cases we saw (proven by viral culture) were in early July but they were sporadic but steady. Starting in early October we were deluged with patients suffering from influenza and the vaccine had just started to trickle out. At one point about 75% of the people I was seeing had influenza and I worsened my carpal tunnel by writing out tamiflu prescriptions which, in retrospect, I should have had pre-printed.

Curiously, I saw no cases of streptococcal tonsillitis from October to December. I saw a lot of young people with sore throats and massive tonsils but they all turned out to be mononucleosis. Now I'm seeing lots of group A strep tonsillitis and no mononucleosis.

One interesting thing which came out of talking to the patients with influenza was that most of them were sunscreen abusers. When I'd see whole families the parents were assiduous in ensuring that the slightest amount of uv light didn't touch their childrens skin and I shudder to think about what is going to happen to these kids in another 20 years or so. I started taking 10000 IU of D3 in October and have been sick less often than I usually am in the winter despite being coughed on vomited on and bled on by patients on a daily basis.

To put everyone in Canada on Vitamin D3 for the winter would cost a few million dollars, but it would also mean lower profits for the pharmaceutical industries and Quebec would complain more. Considering that 80% of the Canadian population is already vitamin D deficient, I can't see a down side to offer free vitamin D to anyone who wants it starting in September.

What worries me the most is that most GP's in Canada aren't going to file reports about the severe vaccine reactions that people got to H1N1 vaccine. I've got a list of patients some of whom were hospitalized but every time I look at the 5 page vaccine side effect form to fill out for each patient, surfing SDA is much preferable.

I have never during the 20 years that I've been in medicine seen as bad a vaccine as the squalene adjuvented H1N1 vaccine. Perhaps some of the WWII era vaccines that veterens who now refuse to be vaccinated tell me about were worse. Squalene is used in an experimental rat model of rheumatoid arthritis and I had one patient who developed severe arthritis from the vaccine and the rheumatologist I consulted had also seen cases. Fortunately my patient has done far better than the Swedish rats that are used in the studies. I suspect that the morbidity caused by the Canadian H1N1 vaccine is significantly greater than influenza. Because the vaccine was in such short supply when the wave of influenza hit where I practice, antivirals were the primary treatments and they worked very well if people came in immediately when they felt they were getting the flu. For reasons that are totally inscrutable, the local hospital ER refused to prescribe tamiflu to patients with influenza and instead lectured them about coming to ER while they were infected.

What this influenza epidemic has taught us is that we know SFA about how influenza epidemics behave. H1N1 was around in my practice area starting in July. I'd really like to hear an explanation from some the the public health "experts" about why a patient who is sitting around a crowded clinic waiting room hacking away for a couple of hours doesn't infect everyone there during the summer. The first H1N1 cases we saw (proven by viral culture) were in early July but they were sporadic but steady. Starting in early October we were deluged with patients suffering from influenza and the vaccine had just started to trickle out. At one point about 75% of the people I was seeing had influenza and I worsened my carpal tunnel by writing out tamiflu prescriptions which, in retrospect, I should have had pre-printed.

Curiously, I saw no cases of streptococcal tonsillitis from October to December. I saw a lot of young people with sore throats and massive tonsils but they all turned out to be mononucleosis. Now I'm seeing lots of group A strep tonsillitis and no mononucleosis.

One interesting thing which came out of talking to the patients with influenza was that most of them were sunscreen abusers. When I'd see whole families the parents were assiduous in ensuring that the slightest amount of uv light didn't touch their childrens skin and I shudder to think about what is going to happen to these kids in another 20 years or so. I started taking 10000 IU of D3 in October and have been sick less often than I usually am in the winter despite being coughed on vomited on and bled on by patients on a daily basis.

To put everyone in Canada on Vitamin D3 for the winter would cost a few million dollars, but it would also mean lower profits for the pharmaceutical industries and Quebec would complain more. Considering that 80% of the Canadian population is already vitamin D deficient, I can't see a down side to offer free vitamin D to anyone who wants it starting in September.

Sorry for the double post. I swear I only clicked once and am blaming this on IE which I'm only using as both Firefox and Seamonkey now refuse to run on my laptop which I'm too lazy to reboot.

Posted by: set you free>

Your right, I am open minded. I think you missed the point a little though. I think you missed “Abe’s” innocuous original point about “snake oil salesman” as well, and turned the discussion into a sermon. Thus derailing the topic at hand.

No one questions your faith here, and no one attempts to teach you otherwise. As a matter of fact no one would disagree with anything you said with your last statement. Me thinks that the Sunday school bombardment of a nonchalant metaphor is another thing.

It’s not very open minded to think that there has never been indiscretions within the Christian church throughout history, at any time or any place. That was the original point put forth as I read it. Of course provoked people will always add spice to their argument further on, and the rest is the outcome. Had Abe’s original comment been taken at face value or ignored, it would have faded to neverland.

Not to mention the H1N1 vaccine doesn't prevent any deaths. It may prevent someone from getting the flu but few of those would actually die from the flu and likely only because they have some other aggravating condition.

So did you all run for the AB border for your free shots when they opened the clinics back in the panic first and ask questions later H1N1 episode of November/2009? I seem to recall that being quite important for some here at SDA to have their government funded swine flu shots delivered to them?

What a farce that whole deal is.

Get ready for "the third wave" though. Ralph Klein must be going to sneeze.