Don't paint all Muslims with the same brush. Overall tha vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace like most other people.

So how come they aren't protesting the radicals,T?
Again a perfect oppurtunity to wipe a few hundred viruses off the face of the earth missed. Couple of well placed squads of Marines,locked and loaded.

Hi T - That may very well be true. I would be much comforted however, if some larger portion of that vast majority would stand up and publicly condemn the violence of the few. And that without making feeble comparisons with Zionists, Israelis, Jews or Timothy McVeigh. How about it majority?
Cheers, Eric

He's an American Black Muslim, sort of like Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Muhammed Ali. Different kettle of fish. Interstingly, this "imam"'s schtick is very similar to any black American Christian preacher you can name: whitey is evil and so is America.

This is a black thing, not a Muslim thing. Yet again, we see how the neo-con narrative is inherently Trotskyist: lots of violence exists in Detroit and it has little to do with religion and everything to do with DNA. Implicit in the neo-con narrative is that if Muslims stop being Muslim than we'll all live together in harmony happily ever after. That's nonsense. Humans are not interchangeable economic inputs, there is great...diversity in homo sapiens. We are a diverse species.

Not one of your finer posts Kate. But I'm in a good mood today so I'll handle this one:

"Overall tha vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace like most other people."

Bullshit, Muslims, being predominantly middle eastern and black, are quantifiably more hostile, more aggressive, and less peaceful than the rest of the species. They have - and this is science folks, you'd better get on board here - higher levels of testosterone than caucasians and mongoloids, leading to decidedly un-peaceful conduct.

Get that? It's race. Race race race. Race.

About 10 years ago, a Afghan family moved to Red Deer. Two boys joined the Red Deer boxing club, and proceeded to win numerous provincial, and national titles. One of the boys came within one win of making the 2008 olympic team. The other joined a muslim gang, and has made some great progress in the drug trade.

The legacy of their arrival in Red Deer is like a gift that keeps on giving. A young boy, of Irish descent, who trained alongside these guys, was recently arrested and charged in a major cocaine distributing sting. He'd proclaimed his conversion to Sunni Muslim, a couple of years ago, and joined a muslim brotherhood(gang). At this point, a dark cloud has formed over a previously, well respected club.

I remember, very well, when my boys competed against the young Afghan refugees. There were stories of their father being executed in front of the boys. They were given a great deal of respect, and support, from the boxing community. It really seemed like they were taking the Canadian dream, and making the most of it. Unfortunately, a leopard cannot change its spots.

Dissenting opinion- Race might be a factor, but not the only factor.

Kate, this post is really quite disingenuous.

You want to call out the "moderate muslims", fine.

But to use this inflammatory headline and select this story of a radical muslim as some kind of equivalency does everyone a disservice.

Should we equate all Christians with the nutcases at the Westboro Baptist Church (of God Hates Fags, fame)?

"Should we equate all Christians with the nutcases at the Westboro Baptist Church (of God Hates Fags, fame)?"

The day that "hundreds" show up for Fred Phelps funeral after his being shot to death under criminal circumstances - yes.

When one reads in the Koran that a Muslim should not befriend a non-Muslim and make an enemy of the Jews or how such-and-such a plot was averted or a fatwa was issued or of an honour killing or how Muslims kill each other and use their own mosques as killing grounds or places of conspiracy, what would one have the general public believe?
Pretending that the multitude of incidents are aberrations as opposed to the norm or even assuming that others are in the same field is ignoring a tremendously serious problem.

"Overall tha vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace like most other people."

The vast majority if not virtually all terrorist attacks are being done by Muslims though. If you want to protect yourself it's pretty smart to first figure out who you think you're defending against.

When the Irish were blowing up England they didn't start searching the Italian Cultural Centers or the Germanic Club. When the Basques were blowing up Spain they didn't raid the Irish Football Club.

Muslims are blowing stuff up. Focus on Muslims. To do otherwise would be suicidal.

Unlike most here, I have read the Koran, and it's not just race.....it is institutionalised hate and domination.
It has been said that anything can be justified by certain tracts of the Bible but the entire Koran is a source for dogmatic justification of murder, Misogeny, robbery, slavery and terrorism.
This crowd in Detroit has grafted that idiology onto their "black power" ideology....doubling down on the hate thing....and the guy in the White-House is part and parcel of theat mentality.
The authorities missed a chance---the black marias should have been loaded with the attendees and then shipped them to Eygpt or Gaza.

Islam is a religion of hate directed at those who are non-believers. All the conciliatory talk to the contrary is just propaganda. Islam generally could stop the terrorism except that there is much sympathy for the Islamic beliefs.

Any black American Christian preacher?

Somehow I doubt that's what Condoleezza Rice's father was teaching.

T & AJ

If you want an eye opener Google "Religion Of Peace" and scroll down. Quite the body count and growing EVERY day!!

Is there a comparable site for "Christians"??

"" Mr. Abdullah was a "recognized and respected member of numerous mainstream Muslim organizations and leadership bodies," the mosque said. "" - Washington Times

And that is the problem. 'Moderate Muslims' are more elusive than the tooth fairy.

Hundreds showed up at the funeral? .... I hope that means the the FBI took thousands of pictures and plate numbers ... that will help keep the violent scum element under scrutiny.

No, no, no, they're not celebrating violence at the funeral, they all just heard the government was handing out free camel cheese down at the mosque. ;}

"followed the tenats of his Muslim faith". I guess 'weapons violations and conspiracy to sell stolen goods" is OK by the Koran.

Who knew?

T at November 1, 2009 2:01 PM

Don't paint all Muslims with the same brush. Overall the vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace like most other people.

Quite true; I agree with you. The unfortunate fact is that these "peaceful" muslims keep quiet and hide while the outspoken "militants" espouse what Mo actually preached AND DID. (At least according to their folklore).

C'mon people,there are two sides to every story. Sure, a lot of Muslims have been in the news over the last few decades for indiscriminate killings,but the vast majority are doing their best to make life better for all.Here is just a partial list of those who have bettered the world, .... hmm....maybe....yeah...no..how about...well.... doo doo doo doo, do do ta do,do ta do..wait a minute ,I got it, one of them just won the Nobel Peace thingy,some guy called Osama Hussien. Hah,Wallah Wackbar.

I have a Koran, even in English its a difficult read. to smooth it out , start from the back. the chapters are shorter.

there is not a chronological order to it.

( the bible is chronological but is more like a record skipping, both the old and new testaments start,stop , repeat , starting right at Genesis.)

Via Bourque, a ray of hope...

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/iran/articles/20091101.aspx

(...) Most worrisome to the clerics is the growing number of young Iranians who are giving up on Islam. Many of these kids are saying that Islam is "un-Iranian" and that everyone should return to the pre-Islam Iranian religion. (...)

RW

I have some muslim friends, and was quite surprized at the answer I got when I suggested that the moderates did not support the radicals> Seems that they do so, by donations and silence when they should be speaking out against the violence. So if there are some moderates (Salim Mansur come to mind) that speak out against moderates, then maybe opinions of those who are not in the know carry very little weight!!!!

After decades of living under a theocratic dictatorship that has alienated them from virtually everyone, I'm not surprised Iranians want out from under the Islamic thumb.

Off-topic, Obama love-in has little impact on how Canadians view Americans, poll finds:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091101/national/poll_cda_us

Take it for what it's worth.

AJ, you're a moron.

The Westboro Church is neither Baptist nor a Church. It is a tiny family unit that calls itself a Church for tax purposes. That is easy to do in the US, becaue "Congress shall make no law..."

And Christians have been loudly condemning Phelps and his daughter publicly for years and years.

Also? Fred Phelps is a registered Democrat.

That's the stuff that always gets left out in the Law & Order pastiches that liberals base 80% of their worldview on.

I've read the Koran half of it's a how to wage war on the Infidels and non-believers the other half makes the Karma Sutra look like a primer. I think we can ascertain which side of the Islamist coin the attendees are on and it's not in the moderate column.

This is first time I heard Windsor, Ontario as city of Muslim prefer to live

I heard London or Gulph
I am 100% sure some thing is fishy here!

may act conpiracy for hate

we do not call them Muslim Mafia
we call them

Monafeq

Monafeq are group of Muslim who say
I am Muslim but they are evil

Monafeq is worse than Kafir

since you can understand who is Kafir is

but you can not understand who is Monafq is

this is two face group who do conpiracy for money drug and power and business stealing

they are not muslim

while what we expect USA the country has so many corroption must deal with any kind of Muslim look corrpted too

then we must fix govement people and the rest come fix after that

whey they kill him they could arrest him for rubbery

this is strange kind of arrest in USA
USA deal with muslim are not accountable even if they are right some time
muslim put duobe even that story may be right

they could sent him warn for arrest not go and shoot him to kill him because he was imam and imam usually can not do rubbery
like similar minster in Canada last week was arrested for child pediphil court give warn arrest to come to police himself befoer put any force

for imam must give warn arrest and ask him to come ot station with his feet if not he come then put force over him and ask lawyer to give him his right first before put force in top of him
this kind of politc in USA can cost them so much hate inside of USA

if they want to arrest Canadian must show all docuemtnt to their lawyer to make sure can get arrest for crime happend in USA not to defame Muslim in Canada

human right must act here, if related

-www.sodahead.com/united-states/muslim-mafia-linked-to-detroit-fbi-shootout/news-36991/

One of the guys arrested in Windsor is named "Mohammad Philistine"?!

You can't make this stuff up.

If radical muslims get shot to death when engaging US law enforcement in firefights....perhaps the US is a bad place to be a bad guy!

I would assume a travel/immigration advisory alert should immediately be issued to the terrorists pouring through our western borders, NO?

"We ask Allah to reward him with the promised reward of those who are martyred," Imam Talib Abdur-Rashid of New York told mourners at the Muslim Center in Detroit.

They seem to endorse his actions by calling him a martyr.

How many religions do you know of whose God demands 20% off the top of any wealth taken from the kuffar by Muslims advancing Islam? How many religions do you know that says money collected for charity can be spent on war or charity at the discretion of clerics? How many religions do you know of that permit familial murder for honor?

No, not all Muslims are Jihadists just as not all Germans were SS soldiers. But Muslims support their warriors by giving to Muslim charities just as Germans sent packages to their SS heroes.

The Qur'an is a confusing, unconnected and often incoherent little book. For a scan that gives a pretty good taste of Islam books 4, 8 and 9 will do. Just remember, if you are not a Muslim you are the unbeliever that is so frequently mentioned.

info: if i din't no betr, I wuld say that u chaghend manes and wer new befor that post.
At leasst tri splchk.
Thank you.

The long and the short of it is this - radical Islamists use the Koran to justify the hate and terror they use on the West.

The big question is - who are they and are they supported by the so-called "moderate Muslims" both monitarily and morally? I believe there is good reason to believe that is the case.

I have not doubt in my mind that Islam is a religion that has no tolerance for any other religion and that the Koran teaches to hate and kill the "infidel".

Case closed. Send them back to where they came from and close the borders.

Most people read a book to get smarter. I have never read the bible nor the Koran. I have noted that people who do, somehow seem to have gotten stupider. Stupider, if only for the fact that they stop thinking for themselves and follow instructions given in the books. That's not smart unless it's a cook book.

A couple of books that will help you be smarter are:

- "How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World" - Harry Browne

- Anything by Ayn Rand.

Meanwhile, Kudos to the FBI for doing the job.

a different bob at November 1, 2009 7:42 PM

The long and the short of it is that Islam is a Totalitarian Ideology, launched by a murderous two-bit bandit who set the tennor of the "religion".

Do you remember the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas? Mo's cult was of the same style; Mo got further as he lived amongst illiterate people without TV.

Interestingly, how did these illiterate people write down his every word? Perhaps it was all fabricated over the next 200 years of Arab imperialist expansion, to justify it, and provide incentive to their "warriors".

T: "Don't paint all Muslims with the same brush. Overall tha vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace like most other people."

====================================
Hark. The parrot speaks.

Canadian Sentinal @ 6:10 pm, you nailed it. If and when that regime falls and if a democratic secular regime emerges, which seems more likely today that ever before, the whole Islamist dynamic will suffer a huge blow. However, this is going to be a very long war and that will only be the first battle.

The Bible is just as whacked as the Koran. The difference is that the idiots wanting to kill people because of what the Bible says have, by and large, been dead for a couple of hundred years. The idiots wanting to kill people because of what the Koran says, not so much.

IMO, though, the religions of the world are all poisonous. Anyone who defends the historical culture of the Catholic church, for instance, is defending a culture of ingrained homosexual pedophilia. Is that worse than the ingrained murderous xenophobia of Islam?

Maybe...

The problem with all moderates - whether Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or whatever - is that they provide camouflage for the extremists. You can't criticize the faith as a whole because every time you point to the actions of the extremists, the moderates get their panties in a bunch. It's absolutely correct to say the moderates need to step forward and either condemn or actively oppose the extremists, but that's not solely an Islamic problem. When the Pope issues an official condemnation of Scott Roeder, maybe I'll pay attention to the Christians who criticize the silence of moderate Muslims. Until then ... well, you might want to look at what Jesus had to say about the mote in your brothers eye ....

But, but, sputter, but George Bush said Islam is a religion of peace.

I guess that nails it. George is dumber than a fence post.

What is the reward, 72 virgins.

Many of you may have received this as an e-mail from others, but it bear repeating to those who continue to parrot that "the vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace like most other peoples."

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates.

When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. 'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the MAJORITY JUST SAT BACK and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, THEY OWNED US, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come.

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the FANATICS RULE ISLAM at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is COWED AND EXTRANEOUS.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly SIMPE AND BLUNT, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most BASIC and UNCOMPLICATED of points:

Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.

Alex said "The problem with all moderates - whether Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or whatever - is that they provide camouflage for the extremists."

How many terrorist attacks by Jews this year? How many terrorist attacks by Christians this year? Plus Jews and Christians have moved into the 21 century. Muslims have just moved from the 12th to the 11th century.

Muslims shouldn't get a free pass just because a few of them can act "normal" on occasion. Being a Muslim in the West should carry the same stigma that being a Nazi in America did during World War Two. They hate us and they want to take over. We should make life very difficult for them.

"Muslims shouldn't get a free pass just because a few of them can act 'normal' on occasion"

That sentence alone renders the rest of your comment irrelevant. You're a bigoted ass whose opinions on the issue are unwanted and unwelcome. As a moderate human being, I reject and denounce your hateful, extremist views. Unfortunately, I expect that very few others will follow suit.

When the Pope issues an official condemnation of Scott Roeder, maybe I'll pay attention to the Christians who criticize the silence of moderate Muslims.

Ah. I see. The Pope hasn't said anything, ergo Catholics support the murder of George Tiller. Never mind that countless Christians not only saw Tiller's murder for what it was - a horrendous act of unnecessary violence - but that we possess no sympathy or garner no support for the nut job that killed him. There's already an official condemnation of murder - it's called the 10 Commandments and the Catechism, you dolt.

Further to Amy P., it's worth mentioning that the blogosphere at least was alight with outraged Christians condemning the act.

They are at war with us, but we refuse to fight. Instead we invite them into our country to be part of our society.

Their leaders preach anti-democratic sermons and tell their followers that they are superior to us.

They will integrate but never assimilate with us. Integrating means becoming part of our economic fabric. Assimilating means sharing everything with us, including their women. Instead they will use our women, but threaten their own women with death if they join with us.

Islam is not only a religion, it is a complete economic and social order that puts itself above all others and even has the long-term objective of replacing our democratic-capitalist society.

It will not happen in the lifetime of most on this forum, but it is entirely possible a confrontation will occur in 50 years if immigration rates continue as they have.

When the Pope issues an official condemnation of Scott Roeder, maybe I'll pay attention to the Christians who criticize the silence of moderate Muslims.

Just a few holes in the logic here. Did the Pope know about Scott Roeder? I'm a Christian I I don't recall hearing of him. If the Pope heard of Scott Roeder does he have to make a public statement? As a Christian I often tut tut to my wife and Church when I hear of evil being perpetrated in the name of Christianity. Does the press carry every word the Pope speaks? I preach in Church but the press has never carried any of my words. Would you have read the press clipping if the press carried it? Most anti-Christian bigots don't care and won't read what the press says that the pope says. In other words you're full of hot air and should hang your head in shame for being so stupid.

Alex said "As a moderate human being.."

You don't sound very moderate to me. I don't mind being denounced by people like you. I used to get the same reaction when I criticized Chairman Mao and Joseph Stalin years ago.

Same problem. Same people defending them. I work with Assyrian Christian refugees. Ask them about the "religion of peace".

When you've had some family or friends blood spilled by these backward cretins from the desert you might change your tune. Then again you might just bend over backwards to find a way to appease them. It won't matter though, they'll still hate you.

"The Pope hasn't said anything, ergo Catholics support the murder of George Tiller"

Strawman.

"Never mind that countless Christians not only saw Tiller's murder for what it was - a horrendous act of unnecessary violence - but that we possess no sympathy or garner no support for the nut job that killed him"

Special pleading - many Muslims feel the same way about terrorism, yet you're criticizing them for not being vocal in their condemnation of it. You don't get to create one set of standards for yourself while having another for them.

"There's already an official condemnation of murder - it's called the 10 Commandments and the Catechism"

That's pathetic/idiotic. It's no different than a Muslim pointing to the Quaran and saying that it advocates peace (which it does ... in some parts). It completely ignores the fact that the Bible and the Quaran are the Big Books of Multiple Choice, and that people tend to create their own interpretations. Either you lack the intelligence which $DEITY gave to a gnat, or you're putting forward an argument which you know is nonsensical.

Lastly ... I know that you wouldn't accept these sort of excuses from someone who is trying to justify the lack of a response in the moderate Muslim community, so why in the world would you think that they'd be any more convincing in defense of your own faith? I know that this sort of hypocrisy is rampant amongst the religious, but please, stop and use your head for a minute.

Religion wants you to live peacefully.but we make it hard enough in this world.

Religion wants you to live peacefully.but we make it hard enough in this world.

"When you've had some family or friends blood spilled by these backward cretins from the desert you might change your tune."

I've been in the military for 12 years. I've lost good friends, acquaintances, and coworkers. It didn't turn me into a cowardly bigot. I'm sorry that your reaction was clearly different. What can we do to make you happy? Shall we round up all the Muslims and put them in concentration camps? Or would you like to start with making them wear red crescents at all times, so that they can be better singled-out for public abuse? Let me know Herr Gord, and we shall mobilize your loyal Christian followers to once and for all deal with the Muslim Problem.

"Islam is a religion of hate directed at those who are non-believers. All the conciliatory talk to the contrary is just propaganda. Islam generally could stop the terrorism except that there is much sympathy for the Islamic beliefs."

What he said.

I think a lot of Muslims like killing things, Americans, Christians, Jews, Muslims. Arabs, chickens, Turks, Indians, ponies, whites, blacks, Brits, French, collies, crocodiles, Shiites, Sunnis, shepards, bus drivers, soldiers, shoppers, Armenians, whatever and whomever is in the way of their latest hate-soaked rage against every imagined slight in the last 1300 years. Until I hear a great number of the followers of the "religion of peace" condemn these assholes, I wil continue to expect no less of the whole lot of them.

"Don't paint all Muslims with the same brush. Overall the vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace like most other people."

For once I can agree with one of the lefties. Just because a fanatical Muslim says there are no moderates doesn't mean there are no moderates. I'd say the only people who love death rather than life are the Islamofascists and the deranged "politically correct" disciples of the Frankfurt School. I also believe most people want to live under capitalism rather than socialism.

"I would be much comforted however, if some larger portion of that vast majority would stand up and publicly condemn the violence of the few."

So would I. But the former denizens of communist countries didn't have much of an opportunity to criticize their system or leaders either. There's probably a lot of intimidation going on here too.

"Muslims are blowing stuff up. Focus on Muslims. To do otherwise would be suicidal."

True, you have to focus on those doing the dirty work, even if it's a handful. But until about 1990, it was mostly communists blowing things up. And the communists today are giving the fanatical Muslims a lot of help.

"If you want an eye opener Google 'Religion Of Peace' and scroll down. Quite the body count and growing EVERY day!! Is there a comparable site for 'Christians'??"

Not today. But its history isn't free of bloodshed.

"Mr. Abdullah was a 'recognized and respected member of numerous mainstream Muslim organizations and leadership bodies'"

So was Rev. Jim Jones with regard to mainstream Christian organizations, etc. He got an honour presented by Rosalyn Carter as I recall.

"If and when [the Iranian] regime falls and if a democratic secular regime emerges, which seems more likely today that ever before, the whole Islamist dynamic will suffer a huge blow."

True. And Canadian foreign policy (and indeed all western foreign policy) should be encouraging this as much as is humanly possible. Marxist terrorism mostly ended with the fall of the Soviet Union. We might find a comparable situation after the fall of the Mullahs, who need to be constantly reminded that the fate of Nikolae Ceausescu in Romania could happen to them.

Bottom line: "There are no warlike peoples, just warlike leaders" -- Ralph Bunche

To which we might add: warlike ideologies and other collectivist or tribal thinking that lead people astray.

Alex you don't seem to good at this discussion thingy. You have yet to refute or disagree with anything I've said. You just name call with no actual basis for your name calling. Why not use that big tolerant brain of yours and explain to us all the good things about muslims to balance the discussion?

I doubt you've spent more than 12 minutes in the military. You show no signs whatsoever of having any discipline. You do know that the Salvation Army isn't really the military don't you Alex? Just cause they give you a bunk and 3 meals a day doesn't make you a soldier.

Now lets see if you can refrain from name calling and put that post secondary education us tax payers paid for to work and say something intelligent.

"sound of crickets".

nv5, on at least one point you are full of shit and that's this one. In response to Al W's statement:

"If you want an eye opener Google 'Religion Of Peace' and scroll down. Quite the body count and growing EVERY day!! Is there a comparable site for 'Christians'??"

you said:

Not today. But its history isn't free of bloodshed.

Since you are unwilling to take a look at the website The Religion of Peace, I'll tell you what the count is as of this morning, Monday, November 2, 2009: 14,318 terrorist attacks since 9/11. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, the site does not actually add up the number of people killed in those attacks, but some of them, as you may well know, have been pretty spectacular. Remember the attack in Mumbai, for example, the anniversary of which is fast approaching. Since most terror attacks kill large numbers of people (that's the whole point), I would suspect the number of dead from these attacks approaches five or six times that number.

Just yesterday seven more innocent people were killed, 2 in India and five in Somalia.

nv53: "But the former denizens of communist countries didn't have much of an opportunity to criticize their system or leaders either."

That might be true of countries where Islam predominates, but it's not so true of Muslims in the West. And btw, there are some moderate Muslims raising their voices, but they aren't getting much notice from the media. I challenge you, nv53, and T and even Alex to name the groups and individuals that are speaking out.

It was mostly Communists "blowing things up" in the 90s and beforehand? Please.

http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Terrorism_Timeline_1960-1969.Islam

Oh and Jim Jones was a Marxist. A bit like Rev. Wright, come to think of it.

Jim Jones a Christian???? Did Jim Jones know that? Every Christian organization I knew was issuing warnings about personality cults like Jim Jones.

A little note for the nitwits who equate any preaching done by any loony tune preacher with Christianity: IT AIN'T THE SAME!!!!!

Louise:

"I challenge you, nv53, and T and even Alex to name the groups and individuals that are speaking out."

freemuslims.org

islamfortoday.com

m-a-t.org

muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Shall I keep going? Just plug "Muslims against terror" into google and you'll get plenty of hits. Unfortunately you won't hear about it on Fox, so I'm not surprised you've never heard of these people.

If you don't trust those links, you can always sign up and get a tour in Afghanistan under your belt. Plenty of Muslims there are opposed to terrorism since they deal with it on a daily basis. Ditto for Iraq. We (NATO) may be leading the charge in this war, but we'd be totally screwed if there weren't moderate Muslims in those nations who are working with us to eliminate the use of terror as a political tool.

Ignorance is a curable condition, and you seem like a decent person - don't let the blind hatred and deceitful rhetoric of people like "gord" lead you astray. Do some research. Think for yourself. You can't expect the truth to be handed to you on a platter, especially if you're seeking it from extremists pursuing their own twisted ideological agenda.

Alex. You're just too stupid to deal with. Your mom must be so proud. I still haven't heard a peep out of you with any intelligence. Just lame insults.

This is why they tell parents not to let the kids have computers in their bedrooms. You get kids like alex bothering grownups and watching porn all day.

Ok. I'm bored with this. Moving on.
Before Kate yells at me. :)

Note to self: Stupidity can be fatal.

Alex- You seem sincere, but I think you're way too forgiving.

Young muslims are on the move. I see gang behaviour in most of the young muslims I deal with. Secret signs, gang tattoos, colours, and a tendecy to remain aloof from non-muslims. When you look at the failure of American society to deal with regular gangs, there seems to be little hope of stopping the latest threat.

These kids come from many ethnic groups. They come from Bosnia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Kosovo, Sudan, Indonesia, Algeria, and Missisauga. No matter how much support they receive from well wishing western society, they still focus on some perceived injustice, and their plan to take their rightful place as our masters.

I don't know about Alex, but I'm not going down without a fight.

Well done, Alex. I do wish you had let nv5 go first though. My hunch is he/she knows nothing about what's out there and is just spouting the usual kumbayah line about how we're all one spirit, blah, blah, blah.

You should do a tour of the back pages of my blog to see where I come from, my connection with Iraq, etc.. I have no patience with folks who refuse to allow people to talk about a real and urgent issue of our times, instead accusing them of blind hatred and deceitful rhetoric. IMHO, it's folks like nv5 that are guilty of deceitful rhetoric.

And by the way, I don't have TV and I've rarely watched Fox so take that leftoid speaking point and shove it where the sun don't shine.

" Shall we round up all the Muslims and put them in concentration camps? Or would you like to start with making them wear red crescents at all times, so that they can be better singled-out for public abuse? Let me know Herr Gord"

Why does the commentariat here seem to consist largely of people who have just been released from Aushwitz? Can you fools not type more than two sentences on any friggin subject without referencing "the" "holocaust"? Get over it, FFS.

"I don't know about Alex, but I'm not going down without a fight."

LOL, You throw your purse at them, girlfriend.

dp - I'm not sure how your points relate to the issue under discussion. I see gang behavior in most of the young blacks I deal with, too. Hell, I see it in sizable segments of the Chinese community as well. If you think that this kind of observation justifies the blind bigotry of gord and his ilk, then you're no better than him.

And no, I don't think that you're like him. You seem to be mainly pointing out something which all immigrant communities have in common in Canada - they're slow to integrate into our society. The Muslim preference for intermarriage and their strong religious beliefs tend to exacerbate the problem, but they're far from unique in that respect. So you've got two options - either you find a way to encourage these communities to adopt Canadian values while harshly punishing those who turn to crime and extremism, or you stop allowing immigration and start government-backed indiscriminate pogroms. Gord prefers the latter, I the former.

As long as our government isn't ready to start firing Muslims into ghettos and concentration camps, your approach is going to be counterproductive. You're not going to convince Muslims to be better Canadians by responding to them with fear and aggression. However, if you're looking to further radicalize them, then you're taking the perfect approach. We saw the same issues in the US a few decades back - systemic racism and the existence of groups like the KKK only encouraged the creation of the Black Panthers and lead to the ghettoizing of black communities. You saw the same thing again in Iraq, where Sunni militant groups popped up as an attempt to deal with Shia discrimination. That kind of indiscriminate abuse never produces the desired results; it only further isolates the minority groups while creating more and more hatred and mistrust between the two sides. The biggest improvements in Iraq have come from the American success in building bridges between the Shia and Sunni communities, by helping to create an inclusive government and police/military forces. Meanwhile you're here proposing that we do the opposite.

I don't plan on "going down without a fight" either, dp, but I know how to pick my battles. Moreover, I have no intention of sinking to the level of our enemies; the day my country starts emulating my enemies is the day I turn in my uniform and find a new place to call home.

It seems to me that Alex (and a few others) raise a valid point; that we can no more lump all Muslims together than all Christians, all Jews, all Hindus or any other. A good part of the problem remains our governments and authorities giving undue importance to mullahs and clerics along with organisations that are a front for Islamists by seeking their advice and agreement on policies. This simply reinforces the terrorists' claim that they represent true Islam and that one cannot separate their criminal activity from their religion. They do not speak for all Muslims and this practice should immediately cease.

I should also add that the general silence concerning acts of terrorism and honour killings of Muslims in general does not help to dispel the claim that all Muslims support such things to one degree or another.

Alex:"...either you find a way to encourage these communities to adopt Canadian values while harshly punishing those who turn to crime and extremism, or you stop allowing immigration and start government-backed indiscriminate pogroms. Gord prefers the latter, I the former."

ROTFLMAO!!!

Talk about deceitful rhetoric.

Alex: "The biggest improvements in Iraq have come from the American success in building bridges between the Shia and Sunni communities, by helping to create an inclusive government and police/military forces. Meanwhile you're here proposing that we do the opposite."

Good lord. The biggest factor in building bridges between the Shia and Sunni was unrelenting, indiscriminate, bloodthirsty violence of Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq and their affiliates. That and capturing and bringing to justice the Butcher himself. To suggest the consequences of 30+ years of Ba'athist rule (a Sunni minority, by the way. Not that Saddam Hussein was religious except when it served his purpose.) in Iraq has any parallels in Canada is absurd.

Just how exactly does the Muslim Canadian Congress's call to ban the burka and the niqab fit into this neatly sidestepping world view of yours, Alex. I think they have a much better bead on the problem than victimologists like yourself.

Huh?

Louise, I think you need to pick a topic and stick to it. At this point it seems more like you're talking to yourself than to me. I'd also be rather interested in knowing why you're sticking up for the tinpot tyrant over there, instead of rightly denouncing his views. How can you expect Muslims to renounce extremism when you won't do it yourself?

A couple of observations:

a) The Koran (yes, I have read it) includes many references to violence against Infidels

b) Mohammed was a sinister, lying, thieving, child molesting, murdering pig

c) The underlying theme of Islam is easily propagated among the impoverished and chronically uneducated (hence the Black 3rd world thing - sorry, but it is true) because of the promise of a better afterlife for the suffering in life as we know it

My opinion.

And you think I'm the bigot alex? You tell people to do research and when they come back with a different conclusion than you it's back to name calling and childish nazi and klan references. We need an army to protect us against people like you. You should hang up the uniform. Your way too old for the Boy Scouts now.

Some people have made some good articulate and intelligent points here and you just throw bile around like some old NDP huckster.

How's that "don't ask, don't tell" thing working out for you?

Alex: "I'd also be rather interested in knowing why you're sticking up for the tinpot tyrant over there, instead of rightly denouncing his views."

Huh? Right back at ya, Alex. What tinpot tyrant am I sticking up for? Can you read?

Louise @ 7:43 a.m.: You misunderstood my comment. What I meant was that Christianity's history is not free of bloodshed. I'm not arguing today's militant Islamic record.

Kathy Shaidle: "Jim Jones was a Marxist"

Could well be. Both Marxism and religion stem from the same source of mysticism as opposed to reason.

As for "mostly communists blowing things up", I'll admit I was a bit off, although I always regarded organizations like the PLO as more communist than Islamic.

Louise again: "the usual kumbayah line about how we're all one spirit, blah, blah, blah"

This is the exact opposite of what I believe, as it is collectivist rather than individualism.

Yeah, Louise, I read you just fine:

"ROTFLMAO!!! Talk about deceitful rhetoric."
Posted by: Louise at November 2, 2009 7:31 PM

So, essentially, you're a hypocrite. You insist that the Muslims must denounce the extremists amongst their ranks, yet you are more than happy to tolerate extremists amongst your own (or are unable to identify them, which is even more worrisome). Until you're able to behave in a consistent manner, Louise, don't expect to be taken seriously.

And just who are these "extremists amongst your own", Alex? Hmmm? Name them, maybe no more than a dozen or so to make it easy for ya, and the violent acts killing thousands of innocent people they have killed.

I supposed you're one of these "relativists" who couldn't support their arguments with real examples if their lives depended on it.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for the name of that "tinpot tyrant" I'm supposedly sticking up for.

All religion is based on man's looking for a reason to be in charge. It's all a crock. We created god in our own image.

But you won't find one muslim who will protest against honor killings or video taped beheadings or al Qaeda.

Since 9/11 how many riots have occurred because of cartoons of Mo or teddy bears named Mo or burka bans? People were killed over those issues.

But how many public protests have Western muslims held against al Qaeda since 9/11? Zero, zip, nada.