Great idea, mom -- let's let your daughter's death be a lesson.

To the coyotes, that is, who'll now know that killing humans is easy, tasty and without consequences.

Why the hell would you want your daughter's death to put other people, especially children, at risk of dying the same way?

This would be like MADD giving drivers one for the road.

Walt Disney?

I heard he killed off allot of lemmings to make some documentary?
Surprised no one has even mentioned rabies though. Coyotes like most wild animals are very shy when it comes to humans, like fox's they can smell you from a km or more.
Try hunting one sometime. Clipped one with a .22 once from about .5k.
But then I learned to shoot in a armoury basement.

She's just trying to make sense of it all. It's hard to think clearly, when you're in shock. People need to grieve in private. Those who step to the microphone, before the body is even cold, tend to make fools of themselves.

"I say Kill Them! Kill Them All!" - Private Johnny Rico SST

Where is all that "eye for an eye", revenge, closure and anger stuff? Have we become so disconnected from nature by living in our cities that we do not understand the danger that nature's predators are to all of us? Are we so used to docile creatures in captivity and documentaries that do not show the brutality but just the fun and playful wild babies that we forget how cruel and dangerous the world is?

I think this explains "wolf huggers" or in this case a "coyote hugger" they seem to forget that nearly ever thing in nature has the potential to kill us and has been attempting to do that since we appeared in the ecosystem, we are not top of the food chain naturally... not even close. Only by keeping the predators out of our territory do we carve out any sanctuary at all.

In our natural state sans technology and even using our reasoning brains we are ill-equipped to survive except as a vast herd of prey animals. We are weak, low tolerance for hot and cold, no defensive weapons (teeth/claws), slow moving, no enhanced senses, it is amazing we managed to survive long enough to evolve at all.

I would simply ask this mother this, Would you want them to be free to kill another mother's child albeit perhaps in another town if they trap and move them, once they learn they can kill a human they will again, can you live with that?

Der sweet brainless girls in late adolescence do
immeasurable harm to the world. This time it fell
on one of them. It is very sorrowful.
Let's hope the coyotes had a good bite to eat.

The ultimate in altruism (other-ism)where the other isn't even human.

The only reason wild animals like these were ever "killed" was because they attack livestock, ie. chickens, sheep, goats, wolves will attack cattle.
Never because they were any danger to humans.
Except may be for some renegade bear or the odd wild cat.
Rabies is usually the cause for attacks on humans..

She should get a free membership in the Darwin Awards Committee.

"Kill them, kill them all" -Captain Hook

"Nearly everything in nature has the potential to kill us."

Ever see Caddyshack? Like the gopher that created such havoc and chaos. When I saw that I thought, "I sure don't want to meet up with a gopher." But then I thought, "My boot is bigger than their head." So I went out and stomp on one and sure enough I crushed his head. Now I feel so empowered to crush any animals head. I've done mice, rats, gophers, crickets. I don't like those tent caterpillars though. There are so many and they are so gooy. Their guts get stuck in the tread of my army boot and tracks throughout the house. I haven't tried coyotes though. I'll test it on the neighbors cat first to see how that works.

Anyway, anyone who says I'm not on the top of the food chain just hasn't climbed high enough to see whats up there.

"Rabies is usually the cause for attacks on humans.."

"Lack of fear" is usually the reason that wild canines attack humans. There have been numerous coyote attacks in recent years involving coyotes taking pets in close proximity to owners (including leashed dogs) and taking bites at small children.

It's because the risk to a coyote in approaching a human has diminished to near zero in recent decades.

"lack of fear" you probably have a legitimate point there, - Colonel blanks

Illiquid Assets:

"In our natural state sans technology..."

You don't get it do you? We are on the top of the food chain precisely because our "natural state" is to be the one creature that can fashion the raw materials around us into the tools that put us on top of the food chain. As soon as the most primitive of our ancestors learned to throw rocks at their prey and wear the skins of other animals, we achieved that level.

The grieving mother's nutso concern for the animals is grounded in the false premise (common among life-long urban dwellers) that we kill animals that attack humans for revenge. That's crap and is indicative of their naive and inexperienced upbringings.

Yukon Gold hit it right on the head. Animals that attack humans - from bears and cougars right on down to domestic dogs MUST die. They can't be allowed to get away with it or they'll do it again.

Before their first kill of a human, the overwhelming majority of wild animals would simply rather have nothing to do with us. Simply put, they don't know enough about us (i.e. how we taste and whether or not we can fight back). So, they normally go off and leave us alone. That's why 9 times out of 10, you can come across a black bear and live to tell the tale. Generally, you only have to fear them if they have their young nearby or they're mad with hunger.

But the second they become unafraid of humans - either because the moronic city types start feeding them or because they tangle with a human and pull of a successful kill - they must be destroyed.

Miss Mitchell's mother simply doesn't understand this.

That's why they're called "wild animals".

They are oblivious to any human agenda.

Pity Taylor wasn't equipped to defend herself.

In this neighborhood, cats and poodles are taken by coyotes quite often.

Also, a Bobcat made off with a leashed poodle. When the women tried to challenge the cat, she was also threatened.

It is commonplace to see coyotes roaming the semi rural streets here - in and out of the vineyards.

If you were a coyote what would you do? Try and chase down some skinny, street smart rabbit or go for a plump, high protein pet that announces it's presence on a regular basis.

Anyone ever check the stats. on deaths caused by non-wild animals?
A friends dad was attacked by a domestic bore hog. He nearly died from his injuries and I recall needed "hundreds of stitches". He was a healthy strong farmer.
Domestic animals probably kill and injure more humans than any wild animals.
Are we going to therefor kill off all the domstic stock as well. - Master Sgt. Airborn

No need to be nasty. The girl suffered a horrible death.
It's very difficult to understand her mother's reaction, though. She should understand that coyotes are extremely adaptable and that "their space" has greatly expanded. Killing is the best way to ensure they won't learn to prey on humans.
I didn't know that Cape Breton Island had coyotes. They can't be native.

A dog may be man's best friend, but a .38 is woman's.

Habituated animals are the real problem. A national park, regular hikers, lots of garbage and free food, why wouldn't the coyote associate people with food? Here in BC we have problems with coyotes on school grounds either being fed or stealing kids lunches. It's just a small step from there to taking a chunk of the kid. People have to stop seeing these animals as cute, or only reacting because we encroach on them, it's all bull! Coyotes seek people, as do black bears, skunks, raccoons and so on because we PROVIDE habitat that is rich in food.

Sort of the same theme, those "save the polar bear" ads will probably result in a lethal attack. I watched one ad, where some people were stroking a tranquilized mother bear, while the cubs crouched beside them. It looked like the bears were so happy to interact with those thoughtful humans.

A binge of hunting coyotes won't have much effect. It's going to take a sustained effort to put them back in their place. A bounty would be a good start. When I was a young boy, in NS, there was a bounty on bears. I think it was around $50. When someone saw a bear, there was a posse headed to the area, immediately. Bears learned to stay the hell away from people. Think of the boost to the economy. The government could fire dozens of useless biologists, and spend the money on bounty. I can assure you, the population of coyotes would be under control.

"I didn't know that Cape Breton Island had coyotes. They can't be native."

For the first twelve years of my life, I lived 20 miles from the causeway to Cape Breton and we use to go on hunting trips onto the island. I don't know if they are native or not...but they were there then (late 70s to early 80's). We could sometimes hear them, but I never actually saw one.

Things must have changed. We were always taught that humans had little to fear from them. "Coyotes are cowards" was the saying.

I live right in the middle of a large city (Edmonton). We have a big healthy coyote in our neighbourhood, which pretty much keeps to herself. The nice thing is that since she moved in, the occurence of cat poop in my flowerbeds and garden has gone down to zero. Coincidence?

With a little luck rural dwellers soon won't have to go one on one with Disney's creatures threatening them or their domestic animals. With the introduction of "green" bins into the cities it will be a wonderful buffet of meat scraps, stale granola and diaper contents for the wild life to enjoy within the cities/towns as a ready food source. Wild animals have a tendency to go where the going is easy...and the thought of coyotes munching on eco-nuts instead of my critters gives me a certain amount of pleasure somehow.

And Blanks at 11:59...domestic livestock that shows aggression towards humans meets an early demise.

turtle- I wouldn't be so giddy about coyotes eating cats. Dogs will be next. After that, keep a closer watch on toddlers.

I used to be disgusted by coyote hunters, in southern AB. They used specially trained dogs. There were "chase dogs", usually greyhounds, and "kill dogs", usually Irish wolfhound cross breeds. I thought it was cruel and sadistic, but my opinion has changed. I'm not sure, but I think the practice was banned. It would be a very effective way to clean up the national park system.

I grew up in Cape Breton and I'd never seen a coyote on the island, but like bryceman, I've heard them while I was camping.

I now live in southern Ottawa and saw my first coyote "in the wild" within the last year. I was on my way home from work and it was in a field less than 1000 feet from some houses.

I've seen them a couple of times since in the same area. It'll only be a matter of time before someone is attacked here.

And Blanks at 11:59...
for you domestic dog lovers out there.
and any domestic livestock is a danger to humans especially to children -so, Kill them All.

Pet dogs account for 31 deaths per year in the U.S. The Pit Bull is not a recognized breed of dog. There are many mutts that resemble the pit bull that kill people, so classification is difficult. The Pit bull variety is by far the largest killer of humans, followed by Rottweiler’s and Husky’s. Dozens of different breeds can kill people. Basset Hounds, Beagle’s, Dauschund’s, Labradors, and even Golden retrievers have killed humans.

Wolf deaths usually occur when people bring them home as pets. Three small children have been killed by pet wolves in the past 30 years. In the wild, there has not been a fatal wolf attack in the U.S. since 1888. (Two deaths have occurred in Canada in the past 10 years)

A 12 foot pet Burmese python recently strangled a 2 year old girl to death in Florida. http://www.examiner.com/x-15540-New-Orleans-Top-News-Examiner~y2009m7d1-12-foot-Python-kills-toddler.

turtle @12:07- Be careful. That absence of cat poop might be replaced by 'turtle' poop some day when you unexpectedly round a corner. ;-)

Well, at least "climate change" wasn't invoked - yet.

Wait for it.

Garth

I have coyotes in my back yard pretty much daily
My dogs do their jobs but Lately I've started taking pot shots at the coyotes to help them out.
They are big this year and getting bolder.
Sounds like its time for shoot to kill.
Maybe get a couple of wolf hounds, but they have to be 2 years before they can hunt.

In the wild, there has not been a fatal wolf attack in the U.S. since 1888.
~blanks

Why? This is why:
A massive extermination campaign started by early settlers and fur-traders in Washington had accomplished its goals by the 1940s, and today there are more reports of Sasquatch here than of wolves.
http://www.conservationnw.org/wildlife-habitat/return-of-the-wolf

Killing top tier predators is a good idea.
Exterminating them all, wolves, bears, cougars, coyotes, would be a good thing.

Quote:

The only reason wild animals like these were ever "killed" was because they attack livestock, ie. chickens, sheep, goats, wolves will attack cattle.
Never because they were any danger to humans.

Eating livestock *is* a danger to humans. We're all in competition for the same food.

"Exterminating them all, wolves, bears, cougars, coyotes, would be a good thing."

Why is it that stories like this often attract some of the most ridiculous comments??

"Beagle’s, Dauschund’s have killed humans".

Not trying to say wild animals aren't dangerous but just like this H1N1 flu business these things get blown way of proportion.
Probably, as someone mentioned by the "city dwellers" going into a panic first ask questions later mode.

On the other hand are the animal-hugger types that want to criminalize snail stomping. murderers

mosquito's are apparently the most dangerous creature on earth to humans, killing over 3 million of us each year.

go back to my tin shop now

When it comes to twisted views on wildlife and nature, Disney is only half the problem. The wider problem is what I call the "Disney-Suzuki Mind-F..k". This is partially the cause of the modern day madness that sees living humans as a subordinate component of the food chain. Think equivalence of self-detonating Jihads for Gaia.

And just in case anyone thinks this (madness) is trivial, the Green Party captured 7% of the vote during the last election and they don't have a hold on all of the insanity by a long shot.

ChrisinMB, what is your problem?
Are you stupid?

Why shouldn't these top tier predators be exterminated?

"Why shouldn't these top tier predators be exterminated?"
Maybe I misunderstood your use of "exterminate" It's one thing to control and manage, but exterminate to me is implying total elimination.

Top tier predators are required to maintain herd health and control population of lower tier wild herbivores. Preventing these tragedies (on both sides of the human wildlife equation) is best served by allowing hunts. The predators learn to keep a healthy distance and stick to their normal prey.

You can't achieve that by killing off only the problem offenders. They need to be routinely hunted and harassed.

We are now characters in the new beast seller: The Green Revolution or "how the Left took us from top of the food chain to menu items" in one generation. Nature IS beautiful. Uncontrolled pollution IS ugly and dangerous. However the false Green path to a beautiful clean environment is being led by self-serving jet set prevaricators who are using our children's school created eviro-mental-ism for their own purposes. The Green puppet masters do not give a rat's patooty about what happens to anyone,any animal or anything except their bloated bank accounts and their celebrity status that they could get anywhere else but from the terminally naive.

Yeah. Totally eliminate them.

More deer, elk, moose, caribou for human hunters, both foreign and domestic.
A nice spike in revenue from domestic and tourist hunters to kill the predators.

Lower risk to hunters, anglers, hikers, climbers, picnickers, cross country skiers, and livestock would be great.

What, exactly do your objections, and ridicule, consist of or are they just empty?

Which lower tier wild herbivores would those be, Kate?

we are the top tier predator, it seems a few of you forget that.

Of course, there are those of you that will deny this horrible truth, but in a natural setting humans get very sick eating veggies alone.

Depending on the attitude I think there may be some just cause for those that consider humans to be a "top predator" and are considering their "extermination" as the cure.
Hitler isn't the only one that's thought about that you know.
occult 202

"Yeah. Totally eliminate them."

ok then.. that settles it, you are crazy

Coyotes are a real menace where we live too. But I'm not sure the theories in these comments can be generally applied to all animals.

If a lion in Africa chows down on a person who wanders into the wild bush, does that mean it should be hunted down and killed? I would say not.

Some will advocate killing it because it would have acquired a taste for human flesh. But the key point is that the lion will *always* eat you if it is hungry, whether it has tasted human flesh or not. And it will never fear you because it is a vastly superior fighting machine compared to a human.

Not to rub salt in a wound but any animal that kills a human being has to be killed. I'm sure victims of animals attacks would agree.

A few years ago in North Saskatchewan, wolves killed a guy photographing them. He'd made a habit of going out to see the wolves, who were attracted by a waste dump. The wolves got used to him, sized him up and guess what they saw ... supper.

In the Saskatchewan Parkland on the other hand, where wolves and coyotes are shot on sight, they just about turn themselves inside out to flee when they spot humans. Only when they aren't hunted do they become at first brave, then curious, then "hungry". The coyotes within Saskatoon though, are creepy ... because they aren't hunted and are often way too tame.

In the real world, you are either predator or prey and those who forget their place on that continuum end up being dined on.

As an aside, the predator/prey rule generally applies to human interaction as well ... especially on a geopolitical scale when dealing with predator species like Islam and fascism. People like this girl and her mother are prey species.

The scenario envisioned when story first came out was of the young naive lady from Toronto feeding the two coyotes some of her lunch,(as she has now been ascribed status as "enviromentalist" see this lunch as tofu sandwich). when sandwich was gone the coyotes, not speaking "hugger-eese", bit the hand that fed them, panic ensues, and with that scent comes catastrophy. The mother seems to be wanting to cash in on her daughters celebrity as singer-songwriter, look how Michael Jackson's career has exploded since his death. Watch for a JUNO to be won posthumously. Do apologise for speaking ill of the dead and hope GOD will understand. Perhaps the career path should not have been folk-singer but rather rocker under the tutelage of Ted Nugent. Isn't the Toronto Wildlife Center home to captured gang-bangers and paroled liberal bag-men?

there is not differnce between animal and human when it come to where they can live and immigrant in big picture look for shelter for all animal lovers but they must get under control in their population or thier behaviour

give visa for illegal immigrant animal in Canada
put board and count them and stop let them go to any place they want to go lol

Start new mission
take all wild animal in fence all of them
take them all and put fence around them
such as
coyotes

put animals who are not wild live in jungle neare big trees like rabit or cat etc.. with id around their neck to count them

there is no security if we can see in winter
any coyotes can come backyard of big house too
this is danger to young kids

Coyotes are not a danger to humans who enter the bush prepared and understanding they are in the wilderness where the rule of nature and not man applies.
Ignorance is dangerous, ignorance like that of big city dwellers who push to take the weapons away from those living in close proximity with wildlife.
When I grew up in northern BC you were considered an idiot if you went into the bush without a rifle, even just off the road a bit.
Nature is not cute and adorable, it is vicious, brutal and not for the uninitiated, without the proper knowledge your a meal on the hoof.

Bryce you are the one missing the point.

Do not be so proud of our species move to the top of the food chain via technology most of us do not have the knowledge to replicate, remove access to it and you are prey, plain and simple. Hence the sans technology preface to the comments.

We cannot defend ourselves without technology and even with it we "civilized" the instincts required to defend ourselves out of us, we feel safe as the "top of food chain" as you would see us. So safe as to enter a habitat we have little working knowlege of without any way to defend ourselves.

That is the point of the post living in cities people see wild animals as cute and cuddly because we are told they are by the various species huggers and portrayals of predators as afraid of man (see the comments section for many examples), they are not afraid of man they are afraid of man's technology. We keep them at bay via control of our territory, just like all competitive species do.

I would put money on it that if I dropped almost anyone into a situation where you have no defense but "rocks and sticks" and a pack predator decided to kill you, trust me you would be dead. That is why we only survived by tribalism, grouping for mutual safety and survival, just like a herd animal.

Some humility as to man's actual place in the wider ecosystem goes a long way in self preservation and a greater appreciation of nature. Acceptance of the danger is the first step in avoiding or surviving it.

blanks

you a city folk, or what

around here coyotes are big (hybrids) and damn agressive with NO fear of humans

the little guy (coyote) that I found dead in the horse shelter this spring made the mistake of wondering into occupied territory

Posted by: blanks
[..]Coyotes like most wild animals are very shy when it comes to humans, like fox's they can smell you from a km or more.
Try hunting one sometime. Clipped one with a .22 once from about .5k.
But then I learned to shoot in a armoury basement.[..]
Yeah and then you learned that outside the basement you need a bigger gun. Even with .222 Rem a .5km hit is just plain luck.
In my youth, here in SW Ontario, ground hog/woodchucks were a problem species and then about mid-60's .22 rimfire was obsolete as scarcity made engagement ranges longer---then coincidentally coyotes became common rather than rare/anecdotal and pasture poodles disappeared. Sheep grazing became hazardous....
The early rarity of coyotes and pandemic of groundhogs was the result of 19th-early 20th century hunting/trapping pressure---then disinterest and the Bambi-culture....
Now a species that I never saw in the wild before my 20's now occasionally confronts me in the pole-barn......my Walther comforts me....
Reducing hunting pressure on Black Bears now has them a lethal menace throughout most of Ontario.
A Olympic biathlon(skiing and shooting) gal was jogging just outside Quebec City a while back...no gun and the bear ran her down......
Hereabouts increased forest cover now results in occasional Sasquatch sightings and frequent verbalization's...my take is that it is indeed fortunate they are much smarter than coyotes.

Coyotes are more dangerous than most ppl know,ive had a couple experiences with them on hunting trips where ive shot them in defence.Last year when i was on a moose hunt,I sat and watched a pack of five track my exact trail up on to ridge where i was sitting and when i showed myself they looked at me and kept coming,three of those made it back to the woods.

Unless wild animals learn to fear and respect humans, often through being shot at, someone else will suffer a similar fate. What the mother is saying is "Don't teach wild animals to not attack humans so that they may continue to consider us as weak prey."

I think it was Marlin Perkins of Mutual of Omahas Wild Kingdom that shovelled lemmings off a cliff. Also staked out goats for the tiger. My favourite was Jim jumping out of a helicopter at about 20 feet into 1 foot of water to save something or other. I couldn't understand how two coyotes could take a healthy human when there was quite a few people on the trail but it happen. I'll take my hiking staff on the trails along the river from now on.

"it's their space"???
I cannot believe people out here in Lotus Land who claim the coyotes were here first and therefore humans are encroaching on the coyotes' space.
This is wolf and bear country! Coyotes are prairie animals. The coyotes emigrated to the BC mountains by literally jumping empty CPR railcars, found a food source and, being very adaptable creatures, stuck around.
The bears and wolves didn't build the CPR, so I guess the humans must have been here before the coyotes.

Speedy- The lemmings were killed in a Disney movie called White Wilderness. The lemming scene was shot in Calgary. The lemmings were tossed into the Bow River. They'd been captured by Eskimo kids, somewhere in the arctic. It was a great movie, but probably wouldn't meet modern standards for cruelty to animals.

There was a descent documentary on CBC's Fifth Estate about how these wildlife films are made. Even a Disney family member made candid statements about how they faked natural settings. I was very dissappointed to find out my favourite wildlife scenes were actually fake.

interesting article on the wolf/coyote hybrids.

http://www.thestar.com/unassigned/article/681632

Wolves are just misunderstood dogs, the T-Star & Paul Watson tell me so.

sasquatch
Well an AR-15 would be even better but while shooting backwards with a mirror on my ass I've been known to miss occasionally.

Sounds to me like a 12 Guage would likely serve your needs better than a rifle.

...the same Paul Watson who claimed he'd get right in amongst a pack to prevent BC's aerial wolf kill some decades ago. He never did get more than a short distance off the Alaska Highway, returning to the highway each night. The fool & his companions were laughing stock to most of Fort Nelson & viewed as the frauds they were. The Province & Vancouver's enlightened seemed to view them in a different light...

Illiquid Assets:

To say, "We cannot defend ourselves without technology" is the same as saying, "Take away a dog's teeth and he can't defend himself."

Technology is the result of who we are as humans. The ability to experiment and calculate a future outcome from putting this and that together is an inherent part of being human. What you are trying to do is say, "take away that which gives humans their upper-hand and drop them into a controlled environment where they can use their resourcefulness to strategize and build tools, and then they're screwed."

Well, la-dee-da. So what? Take away any creature's best asset and drop them in a cage match with another animal over which they'd normally have the advantage and, yes, the tables will be turned.

"I would put money on it that if I dropped almost anyone into a situation where you have no defense but "rocks and sticks" and a pack predator decided to kill you, trust me you would be dead"

Yes, because you set the rules. You played God by dropping them into that situation with no room to manouvre or think. And if I lobotomized a cat, it wouldn't have a chance against that squirrel.

But, put humans in that same situation and give them time and room, and they will emerge the victors.

That is what I mean by "top of the food chain."

Taylor Mitchell: Not as fast as the Road Runner.

Whoops, "where they can use their resourcefulness" should have been, "where they can't use their resourcefulness."

I guess that's what the "Preview" button is for.

yes it was a very lucky shot and probably closer to .4k really.
My time at the Essex-Kent,Scottish wasn't all spent swinging from vines.
I haven't heard of this "hybrid" coyote, maybe they've crossed with some big dog or possibly a wolf?
I live in southern SW Ontario and there hasn't been a black bear around here for close to a hundred years that I know of.
Rarely a wolf, fox or coyote is even left.
Lot's of smaller varmint's similar to Kate's trophy.
Except we don't have the prairie dog, thankfully.

bykeman
your comments are what the spam filters are for

A healthy respect for and fear of the power of the forces of nature is just common sense. "Fear of G*d is the beginning of wisdom," says the Good Book. Likewise, fear of "nature red in tooth and claw" (Alfred Lord Tennyson) wouldn't be a bad starting point for Walt Disney-, WWF-, Suzuki-, TWC-fed urbanites.

I still don't see why city dwellers can't take on the increasing, and increasingly problematic, population of raccoons in our backyards and alleyways. They are pests extraordinaire who have no fear of humans; the garbage they strew is a health hazard, they do thousands of dollars of damage to electrical wiring once they get inside a house, creating a fire hazard, and they are prone to rabies.

I can't figure out why their care and nurture trump my family's and mine -- except for the aren't-they-cute, "equality" propaganda spewed by the Greenies and like-minded dingbats.

And, what really rankles, is that humans pay all the bills. When raccoons start paying taxes, then maybe I'll soften my attitude towards them.

"But, put humans in that same situation and give them time and room, and they will emerge the victors."

I notice you used the plural, not "a human" which is at the heart of my point, we are herd animals. I was not playing god in the scenario I am quite accurately describing the scenario at the heart of the news story that prompted this discussion. A HUMAN put themselves into a situation where they did not have room and time to think because they had the same attitude as you that you are the dominant species in the habitat and have been conditioned to not recognize the danger, it is a result of civilization illustrated in the many movies of Walt Disney.

The coyotes are not going to wait for you to come up with a plan, sharpen a spear, make an axe. So once again you are missing the point and trying to justify your false view of man's dominance of the food chain, it is this sort of arrogance that leads to people walking in the woods alone without any protection.

"Well, la-dee-da. So what? Take away any creature's best asset and drop them in a cage match with another animal over which they'd normally have the advantage and, yes, the tables will be turned"

Your best asset is technology that you cannot replicate, you start with a gun, run out of bullets in a pack predator attack, and you now have a club, you will tire faster than the predators and may even drop it. Then you are left with what? a quick wit and a "la-dee-da"?

A Toothless declawed bear still has mass, speed, strength and stamina, want to go few rounds? I will even give you a knife... and about 1 minute to prove your point.

Oz, there was an excellent program on National Geographic on the reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone. The ranger showed a stream with eroding banks and very little plant growth and few animals, birds and insects. Over just a few short years of the wolves returning they had claimed their place as top predator and reduced the deer and elk that were starving after over grazing their habitat. The wolves also killed off most of the coyotes.

The same stream was now a lush pond created by beavers and the trees and shrubs had regrown and all sorts of animals and birds had also returned. It was amazing to see the impact of the wolves on the ecosystem. There was now a balance and nature was thriving again.

Whether its sharks in the oceans or bears on land elimating the top predators will eventually reduce or destroy the richness of nature.

well said "DAVE" !!

Paul in calgary

Okay on Illiquid Assets comments going have to disagree. Come on we have all seen the Star Trek when Capt James T. Kirk had to fight that stunt man in a bad lizard suit. Before you knew it Jimmy had made a spear and a crude cannon. One almost dead lizard.

"Your best asset is technology"

No, your best asset is the superior, thinking, calculating mind. Technology is a symptom/product of the superior mind - not the cause.

My only point (and my original point that I said you didn't get) is that it is our intelligence and ability to reason that makes it so we can rightly claim to be the "top of the food chain." You speak as though technology is just there. As if it somehow appeared (from where, I don't know) and we are lucky to have it because, if it were taken from us (by what, I don't know), we'd lose our self-perception as being on the top - as though that assertion is wrong.

I'm saying our minds beat out all of the claws, teeth and brute strength that can be found in any animal. Long before guns, humans were proving that.

Put a human (note the singular) in a situation where they are forced (empty-handed) to battle - let's say, a grizzly and you are right, they'll get routed. Put a human in an environment where they can evade, study the situation, and have time to think and I'll put my money on the human. That one human may indeed wind up dead. But, I think the odds are on the side of the human to at least live longer than the bear. Even if it means simply finding a way not to fight.

Human history is on my side.

I've yet to kill my first coyote and that's even after shooting at them for over 40 years. When I was a kid the only time you'd see a coyote was perhaps briefly in the distance and it would be gone before you could raise a rifle to your shoulder. Now they come in closer but I've still found them damn hard to kill as they are unpredictable and the last coyote hunt I went on when I moved in my ambush position the coyote that I had my sights on ran straight at me and, while it did get me a great image of a highly magnified coyote face in the crosshairs, it wasn't the shot I was hoping for and I missed.

Coyotes are rather fragile animals and two of them should not be able to kill an adult human. Humans are far larger than coyotes and also have the advantage of being able to pick up rocks and large sticks. A 6' stout stick swung hard will kill or severely injure a coyote if it connects. Chimpanzees are able to kill large cats using this method. The only adult human that can be killed by two coyotes is one who has never been exposed to danger and is under the delusion that natural animals behave like those in disney movies.

When it comes to large numbers of pack animals attacking, a rifle is preferred for defense as the difficulty of fighting off multiple smaller attackers increases as a power function of the number of attackers.

I never go into the bush unarmed. In simpler times this just meant carrying a rifle with me whenever I went for a hike but this practice is frowned upon now so I always carry a large knife and before I get too far into the woods always make a point of finding a good stout walking stick which will make it difficult for any attacking animal to get in close without sustaining a lot of damage in the attempt. I'd much prefer carrying my M1 Garand, despite the weight, but a good stick and 8" of razor sharp steel does even the odds quite a bit.

The people who say "don't hurt the beauty-ful animals," and the people like Oz who advocate killing all the large predators so everyone is safe to go swimming/hiking/snowmobiling/fishing are both foolish.

Kate's got it right in this case: wild animals who start to see humans as prey or potential prey need to be either scared witless - every time out - or killed. These coyotes who trot in close, who are aggressive and nip at kids and kill pets, are either in parks or in urban/suburban areas - i.e. the places where nobody ever shoots at them. Or sends big dogs after them. Or poisons them. Or chases them on skidoos, or...

When you see coyotes in farming country they're skulking around in the middle of a field, far away from any buildings, and looking kinda nervous. There's a reason for that.

Many moons ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth I was going to cultivate some land on my Grandfather's farm. I fired up the old Case and set out down the trail with the faithful Queensland Blue Heeler in hot pursuit. That silly dog would follow the tractor all day long and only sneak away for a few minutes to get a drink from a nearby slough. After about 10 minutes I noticed that it looked like there were two identical dogs chasing each other around the tractor. After a moment I realized one of the dogs was actually a coyote. I turned the tractor around and went back to the house to get the rifle kept just inside the back door just in case the coyotes attacked the chickens or cattle. The coyote ran off into the bush before I got back to the house but I decided to get the rifle anyways. Sure enough before I got out to the field the coyote resumed its game of tag with the dog. About the third time around the tractor the coyote lay dead in its tracks and I was deaf from the rifle report inside the cab of the tractor! My hearing recovered but the coyote is still dead.

I have always found the best technique in escaping dangerous animals is to become the aggressor. Simply making loud threatening noises and moving towards the animal is enough to scare away most bears and coyotes.

madmaxxx, Bryce

I concede I have lost this exchange simply because of the obvious omission on my part regarding the resourcefulness of humans as illustrated by the appropriate Star Trek reference.

A human could simply evade a predator/adversary long enough to construct a cannon. So simple it is mind boggling.

Thanks madmaxxx for putting into relative social context regarding the images used in society today which actually drove the point of the original discussion ala Disney home.

When darkness falls if I go outside and listen I'll hear that the party has started and is in full swing in the corn fields.
Deer, coyotes, rabbits, coons, wild turkeys and lord-knows-what in a luncheon free for all in my crop. What clears that mess of wild life out in hurry running for their lives? The combine. So man and technology win.
That's what put's us at the top of the food chain.
End of story.

Bambie syndrome.

Toronto has a wildlife centre??

I bet you they throw great parties.

Joe, I enjoyed your story: "I have always found the best technique in escaping dangerous animals is to become the aggressor."

In short, animals understand dominance, plain and simple. 'Try to be ooo, ahhhh, you're-so-sweet-let-me-pat-you will get you into real trouble -- and fast.

Patting the snake is a recipe for curtains.

Please, quit picking on Walt Disney. It isn't his fault most of humanity is stupid. That's like blaming comic book writers because someone got a cape and thought they could fly... err, bad example.

Anyway, this victim was hiking in a National Park if memory serves me and even being caught packin' on fed land could be a whole lot of trouble. Same goes for trying to shoot a coyote in any urban area. Good news is when you are in the slammer for all those weapons convictions, you will be first in line for your flu shot ;-)

"Walt Disney, I'd like you to meet Kenton Carnegie, Kenton , Walt."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenton_Joel_Carnegie_wolf_attack

(Wolf attack... for your lying eyes.)

Doggies, wolfs or kyotes olfactory decides almost everything about them, like when a dog sniffs your butt they can probably tell what you eat and your general aggressiveness, and wild animals will exploit cues of nonaggression--cityslicker females.

"I live in southern SW Ontario and there hasn't been a black bear around here for close to a hundred years that I know of."

Actually blanks there was a black bear sited around Petrolia Ont last year. We seen a lone bull Moose the fall before than in North Lambton.

www.canada.com/windsorstar/story.html?id=f4e26222-7c6e-4625-a58e-77ee0de9e9b7

blanks has an AR15? Sounds like he up-graded from his .22. The coyote guys hereabouts use well scoped mini-14's (.223/5.6NATO)
A long time ago and far far away, I recall having a handy device. A .55 Boys fitted with a good 'scope----it would easily and successfully engage thin skinned game under 200lb out to about a mile or more....kicked like a mule---the terminal effect was impressive.
Rank does have privileges---some other sorry SOB got to hump that brute, through the boonies...I carried the ammo....

Blanks there are lots of coyotes here in Lambton County. I seen three cross the road in front of me last week. Here is an article from the Sarnia Observer, about a worker encountering a pair of coyotes in Canatara park. He quit after been given an umbrella for protection.

www.theobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1530057

If you read it you certainly get the feel that coyotes come before people that is until pets start disappearing then it will be anything goes.

I remember, as a boy-child, going out to the farm for a week or so each summer. My granduncle would take the occasional pop at very distant coyotes ... but most times he banged a couple of pieces of wood together ... it sounded like a rifle report. They ran ... this was almost every night. That farm is suburbia now.

The terminally urban ask:

Are wild animals really afraid of fire?**serious answers only please.?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071208211410AAoKLad

Like, really, how many of thousands years has man known this? How long would someone who didn't this know last a couple of hundred years ago?

For all you people that say that we should just venture into wild animal territory unarmed,try it in one of the wild animal areas in your city.Go alone and walk down one of the dangerous streets in your city,alone,unarmed and vulnerable.If you do it you better have a knife like Mik Dundee and know how to use it.

Update - This comments thread has been nominated for the distinguished SDA Best Comments Thread Ever Award, as exemplified by the following;

I concede I have lost this exchange simply because of the obvious omission on my part regarding the resourcefulness of humans as illustrated by the appropriate Star Trek reference.

Posted by Kate at October 31, 2009 10:42 AM

Nah. It should be for the best example of urban stupidity,as shown by the enviro-nut daughter and desparate housewife Mommy who still thinks all wild animals are cute and cuddly.
I say bring more and bigger predators into the urban cores. Lot's of free,dumbed downed,sheeple food there for them.And less of them to waste my tax bucks(the urbanites).

"In short, animals understand dominance, plain and simple."

Actually, people understand dominance pretty well also.

Except today's generation of Western leaders, who seem to understand submission a whole lot better.

Hm, just pondering, a new hybrid coyote species in an apparent increase in numbers and an increase of human vegans meeting in the most convenient of places - for the wild animals.

Never would have thought I'd ever hear of coyotes killing an adult. That is odd though.

At a recent Press Conference of the National Association of Predatory Animals, in attendance were: Barry Bear, Walter Wolf, Carla Cougar and their spokesperson Carrie Coyote.

Carrie Coyote in responding to a reporter's question stated
"If Mother Nature didn't want us to eat people she would not have made them out of meat."

think that mean old people shouldn't hurt poor predators? go for a hike in the boonies unarmed.by the way say hi to darwinian theory for me.it's tough being a vegan animal rights activist one day and predator shit the next.

What bothers me most about this is that the police were called and arrived while the attack was still in progress....meaning someone was watching this the whole time with out stepping in to help the poor girl.

I liked it where the deceased's mother says she was
a "seasoned naturalist". Maybe some juniper berries
she ate made her yummy to the coyotes.

"I liked it where the deceased's mother says she was
a "seasoned naturalist". Maybe some juniper berries
she ate made her yummy to the coyotes.

Posted by: John Lewis at October 31, 2009 11:02 PM

The seasoned naturalist bit is the funny part,and where urbanites are so kooky. Naturalists have diddly-squat to do with nature's way.They just eat a ton of alfalfa and then crap about how eco-friendly they are. Real people in tune with nature know you don't screw around with predators,unless you are prepared to defend yourself.

John Lewis - "seasoned naturalist"? That's in such bad taste.

Jack;

There are a lot of people who would be nothing more than another victim if they attempted to step in against two revved up coyotes in full attack mode. Hard to judge without knowing who called it in.

I find some of these comments to be in bad taste. The mother is grieving and trying to make sense of something horrific. She's lost her daughter. I generally like this blog but this particular thread is really making me reconsider. Yeah. You're right. I'll just bugger off then.

Maybe if the young lady in question had read Jack London's Call of the Wild or White Fang, or even just his story To Build A Fire, instead of the dusty prose of the dessicated Margaret Atwood which she was doubtless ordered to read in school, she might have had an appreciation for how thin the line between cuddly pet and wild animal is.

Oh, and Oz - given your choice of nickname, I'm a bit startled that you need to be reminded of this - but exterminating the top tier predators? You might want to look up "Australia" and "rabbits".

When I first heard about this young woman dying I thought, "that's tragic."
Then, as I considered it further and read about who she was, I began to wonder if this girl, born and raised - as it appears - in the city, simply had the "Disney" perspective of animals, and thus was the author of her own demise.
Perhaps she was awaiting the coyotes approach as if she was Uncle Remus strumming "Zippadeedoodaa" on her folky guitar.

DaWG
A resident of America's Hat.©

Over just a few short years of the wolves returning they had claimed their place as top predator and reduced the deer and elk that were starving after over grazing their habitat.
~Dave

Don't reintroduce the wolves, hunt the deer and elk.
Problem solved.

You didn't read this, did you Dave.

More deer, elk, moose, caribou for human hunters, both foreign and domestic.
A nice spike in revenue from domestic and tourist hunters to kill the predators.
Posted by: Oz at October 31, 2009 1:22 PM

You might want to look up "Australia" and "rabbits".
~KevinB

KevinB, the lesson in Australia wasn't that all the top tier predators were killed, it was that rabbits, which were an alien species to Australia, shouldn't have been introduced into the Australian habitat because there WASN'T any group of lower tier predators that was capable of keeping the rabbit population in balance with the ecosystem.
The rabbit problem had nothing to do with the top tier predators being exterminated.

Top tier predators kill large ungulates, as Dave noted.
That makes top tier predators easily capable of killing humans.

Still not one good reason to not kill the top tier predators from any of you.

re rita's comment: I feel very badly for this young woman's mother and all of her family members and friends. This is a tragic loss. Taylor Mitchell had her whole future ahead of her and it seems that it was going to be golden.

There is a cautionary tale here, however, and that's what most commentators on this thread are pointing out. Humans venture into the wild, alone and unarmed -- in other words, defenceless -- at our peril.

Illiquid Assets, you Sir are clearly a gentleman. It is hard to counter the wisdom we have all gained by watching Capt Kirk!!! As a small side bar I think all provical and national parks should have a sign (in both offical languages) that simply says as a both a truth and as a lesson "MOTHER NATURE IS A B!TCH AND SHE IS ALWAYS HUNGRY"

batb (There is a cautionary tale here, however, and that's what most commentators on this thread are pointing out.)

I don't object to the cautionary tale. If there is something to learn, then I am happy to learn it. However I do object to (and this is just a random selection)"it's tough being a vegan animal rights activist one day and predator shit the next." "Great idea, mom -- let's let your daughter's death be a lesson to the coyotes, that is". "Der sweet brainless girls in late adolescence do immeasurable harm to the world. This time it fell on one of them. It is very sorrowful. Let's hope the coyotes had a good bite to eat." etc. etc.

I have done many things which might have gone wrong in some way. I've hiked in the mountains with only my hiking poles for defence. I take the precautions available to me and I accept that someday I might meet up with a grizzly or a mountain lion that looks upon me as food. And yes people would be right if they had said it was my own fault (if that's how they think).

It's easy to be an armchair quarterback tut-tutting over that naive child out in the wilderness but fully armed hunters sometimes end up being prey (or shooting each other). Accidents and mishaps happen even to the best prepared. Some of the comments verge on smugness, self-satisfaction, trying to be clever off someone's misfortune and sorrow. I would not want someone who cared about that girl to read those comments.

I will personally guarantee that these coyotes that attacked that woman were fed - a lot and by hand. If you feed wild animals (ungulates included) you are asking for big trouble.

Coyotes around my neck of the woods are not a threat. They are sooooo afraid of people you are lucky to glipse one and if you do you will see its backside as it runs as fast as it can away from you. Oh, we have a lot of coyotes because I trap them and can manage to get between 20 and 40 each year within a 10 mile radius of my house. You can hear them howling just about every night. They like the fields where cow poop is available for them to munch on. I have never heard of a coyote or a pack of coyotes taking a calf around here. Farmers around here love the sport of coyote hunting and these coyotes are "educated" and have taught that lesson to their young ones.

One aside: you can't get rid of all the top predators because it throws the whole system out of whack. The deer, moose, and elk would multiply out of control, eat themselves out of habitat and then become pests to farmers and ranchers as they try to eke out a living but that wouldn't work and you would have sick and starving animals everywhere. There are balances in this world and you can't eliminate part of the balance without a crapload of unintended consequences.

Spike1, at 9:11 pm, nails it! The aboriginals who peopled this land and the settlers that followed were able to survive in the wilderness and push the frontiers solely because they were ALWAYS ARMED TO THE TEETH! Go forth unarmed and the frontier will push back! That unfortunate young lady is as much a victim of today's society as she is of the wild dogs. Her demise is typically the inevitable result of us allowing ourselves to become pussified by socialist/liberal dogma which has, in effect, rendered us legally powerless to defend ourselves. And, as Spike1 points out, not only against wild animals in the wild but wild humans in our cities. We might do well to heed the words of a very wise "Anon" - "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six."

Rita,

On the first post relating to this attack, I deleted comments I thought were overly insensitive. Then, I read this statement from the mother.

The truth is that it is people like she and her daughter who have helped create (through the power of misinformed public opinion) the very fantasy world of modern wild animal management that contributed to her death.

That she did not consider the safety of other mothers' children hiking in the area speaks volumes. In short, she would prefer these coyotes remain free to attack again. She deserves sympathy yes, but not a free pass.

Thanks Kate. I see your point. I was objecting (and still do) to the tenor of comments that verges on celebrating that some naive, citified, animal rights activist got killed by coyotes as if she got what she deserved. As far as the mother's comments, I think there should be a moratorium on interviewing people in the throes of grief. I can understand her trying to make sense of her daughter's death in the best way she can. Perhaps she shouldn't get a free pass but does that justify anyone referring to her daughter as "predator shit"? I don't think so.

I just wish to extend my most sincere condolences to Taylor's mother and her family and friends. I am very sad that a young lady lost her life regardless of the circumstances that led to such a tragedy. May she rest in peace and may her family find the strength and support to get through this horrible incident and traumatic time.

Perhaps she shouldn't get a free pass but does that justify anyone referring to her daughter as "predator shit"?

It might be a crude way to put it but it's a "hard to vary assertion about reality".

Rita, it is sad that this girl had to die. It is sad that some kid around my town had to die too, from running his car into a telephone pole drunk off his @ss at 3AM.

Stupidity is a capital offense.

The point is not to denigrate the deceased, it is to impress upon the LIVING that being a fluffly little bunny hugger is dangerous the way driving while drunk is dangerous.

People got the point about the drunk driving thing. These days we have MADD and all kinds of public service nannyism to make sure stupid kids don't off themselves on telephone poles.

Nobody has got the message about wandering unarmed in the woods being dangerous. We are in fact -required- to go unarmed, there's no choice in the matter, and the reason is because of 6 million Liberal voters like this fool girl's fool of a mother.

Those people, the bone hard stupid of the downtown core, are the real threat. I'm clever enough to take a piece with me when I go out into coyote country, BUT I CAN'T. Because of Emily freakin' Mitchell and the thousands of sleazy ambulance chasers catering to her mental malfunctions.

Hence my discontent.

On a lighter note, I have the answer for anyone wishing to coyote/rabbit/coon/skunk/deer proof their manse. Fully autonomous, portable robotic paint ball gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxBa5bQfTGc&feature=related

Put a big enough ammo tub on this baby, and it'll see off a whole horde of pesky critters. Nothing like a nice paint ball in the @ss t'git yer varmint's attention. Or a half dozen paint balls.

Works in the dark, too. ~:D

Green = cult
Environmentalism = humanist religion making animals more anthropomorphic than Homo Sapient. Humans bad . Animals good.
If your Daughter had become coyote crap. Well, in this Religion she would be one with Mother Nature.
No need to harm the Noble predators in their"space".
JMO

A comment on that NP article got me banned from their blog. I wrote that the incompetent woman should not be talking of the things she has no knowledge about, otherwise she will be responsible for more deaths; that they yotes who tasted human flesh absolutely had to be killed or they would started targeting people. That was a bit too much for NP staff.

Still not one good reason to not kill the top tier predators from any of you.

Maybe because managing predator populations and being respectful of the natural environment is a lot more efficient than having a bunch of armed morons wandering around the forests and plains shooting everything that moves, and risking god-knows-what unintended consequences?

On a lighter note, I have the answer for anyone wishing to coyote/rabbit/coon/skunk/deer proof their manse. Fully autonomous, portable robotic paint ball gun.

I always understood that a good way to coyote/wolf-proof your grounds was to head outside with a very full bladder and mark your territory. Assuming this (still?) works, it's perhaps a bit cheaper - and getting that full bladder could make for some good times.

"...head outside with a very full bladder and mark your territory."

I've tried that only to discover raccoon feces covering the same spot the next day or stray dogs casually wandering into the yard to mark over it. I guess my pee just isn't strong enough. Maybe a diet of less beer and more asparagus would help?

Blech.

More evidence that your "ideology" is an elaborate justification for the fact that you're a bunch of sick f**ks

Maybe because managing predator populations and being respectful of the natural environment is a lot more efficient than having a bunch of armed morons wandering around the forests and plains shooting everything that moves, and risking god-knows-what unintended consequences?
~Dudley Morris

Maybe you know a bunch of armed morons, but I don't know that many Englishmen myself.
I know you, Dud, would want to shoot anything that moves if you had the chance, but projecting your shortcomings and twisted fantasies onto others is childish.

I think killing off the top tier predators is being respectful of the environment as much as anything else, considering the "big kill" that wiped out the top tier predators, like T-Rex and the saber tooth tiger, which preexisted the present top tier predators of today.

I don't know why mutton heads like you think that what mankind can do is any less respectful or more "outside" of nature than anything else that happens in the universe.
Your ilk certainly has an defenceless myopic view, beginning with the delusion that your personal definition of the word "respect" and ending with your narrow static view of environment being "the perfect environment" that has always existed and will exist forever more.

Grow up Dudley.
Get some perspective.

Some dolt who wants to kill off almost all wildlife (wipe out the predators, then wipe out the starving elk and deer, then go after the bunnies and beavers I suppose) is telling me to "grow up"?!? Thanks for my morning laugh. Sure, it's fun to talk all aggressive but it dosen't make for sound policy.

Poorly done strawman fallacy on your part, Dud.

Anyone can read the thread and see that I advocate only wiping out the top tier predators; wolves, bears, cougars,coyotes, for specific reasons, and then managing the prey that these predators consume through hunting rather than wiping them out as you alone suggest.

You aren't just childish,Dud, you're silly and transparently deceitful.

Oz, do you know what coyotes and wolves mostly eat? Mice. And rabbits.

Ya wanna be over run by rodents?

How much hunting do you think people can do, incidentally? You want guys blasting deer in your back yard every week? That's what you'll have.

Easier to issue dumb city girls with a .38 and a whack from the clue-bat, don't you think?

Not really that deceitful Oz, as what I proposed isn't too far off from what you're saying.

Anyway, anyone who advocates wiping out entire species populations for minimal benefits that can be better realised in other ways clearly hasn't seriously thought about the issue, its consequences or its costs. And I won't even get into the ethical angle, since you're clearly numb to it here. Yours is an argument based in emotion, which is, well, childish. Or maybe girly. Your pick!

Phantom, mice and rabbits are also eaten by foxes, weasels, skunks, wolverines, mink, marten, badgers, ferrets, owls, hawks, snakes, shall I go on?

Pure hysteria on anyone's part to even pretend that we would be "overrun" by such varmints if an extermination of the top tier predators were attempted.

"You want guys blasting deer in your back yard every week?"
How absurd.

First you say that the main sup of coyotes and wolves are mice and rabbits, next you say that they keep the large ungulate population down to a point that hunting couldn't possibly return the balance without running around blasting things in my backyard.

Do you even read your own comments?

Hunters could easily do it with more, cheaper, tags issued, extended seasons, and the allowance of culling females.

There is so much wilderness out there.
The very idea of actually exterminating all the bears, wolves, coyotes, and cougars itself is ludicrous to the point of impossibility.
Trying would be a good thing.

More hunters, more interest in the wilderness itself, and less danger to the people who would like to enjoy it.

It's win win.