However, wind turbines and solar support a much smaller population, which seems to fit with the true agenda of the greenies.

Could someone please hammer this into McGuinty et.al before he sinks a billion or so [that we don't have] into this brain dead scheme?

A couple of dozen birds dying because of the tar-sands is an unacceptable environmental impact whereas tens of thousands of birds dying from feel good expensive wind energy is entirely reasonable. I though everyone understood the "Logic" of environmentalism. Remember, it doesn't matter how environmental something really is as long as doing it makes you feel better about yourself; why else would so many people choose to use compact flourescent lightbulbs or drive hybrid-electric cars that polute our landfills?

That eagle, of course, would be a lot deader if it had been zapped by a few stray neutrons from a power reactor.

Well, if the eagle is zapped by neutrons you might not want to eat it, while a eagle killed by a turbine would be perfectly safe to eat.

mmmm...sweet and sour eagle

got a link of that I can forward?

I guess we don't need no stinking giant birds either.

"That eagle, of course, would be a lot deader if it had been zapped by a few stray neutrons from a power reactor."

I believe the politically correct term would be "pre-microwaved".

Denmark has the highest electriciy costs in Europe and the most windmills. France has the lowest electriciy costs in Europe and the most nuclear power.

And let's ignore the huge carbon footprint of each windmill's huge concrete base.

We don't have eagles in Ontario,thankful for that now, just allot of dumb turkey's.
Dalton still thinks he can close down the coal generators, he quacks like a duck every time he opens his mouth.
How do you get rid of these bums though if the voters apparently approve of them and give them majority after majority?
He's spending this province into oblivion I know that much. A true LIBERAL that dude.

Damn, that's going to leave a mark.

Seriously, I just saw a report about one of these eyesores being put up on Grouse Mountain so leftoid eco-Vancouverites can look up and see what a great job they are doing. And the whole world can see how green we are at the Olympics (a green world event...)

McGuinty and Smitherman are well aware of similar Danish studies, but their minds are made up and cannot be confused by facts. Smitherman dismissed cost-benefit analysis for wind turbines replacing it with something like social environmental accounting. "Saving the environment" is more important than a few mispent Billions. Hearings for the Green Energy Act were limited, but still dozens of written briefs pointed to the inefficiency of wind power. It is just impossible to reason with fanatics. A lot of Liberal urban supporters still believe their electricity bills will be lower with giant wind mills.

Presumably the bird was attracted by the prospect of
carrion from previous strikes.

Re "zapped by a few stray neutrons": you will get
precious few neutrons outside of a nuclear power
reactor. Typically, coal will put more radioactivity
into the environment than a nuclear reactor, which
was shown a long time ago in a Festschrift for
Niels Bohr. The article, which was humorous at the
time, supposed that nuclear was standard, and that
coal would be subject to the same standards as nuclear. The article concluded that coal wouldn't
be acceptable.

"A lot of Liberal urban supporters still believe their electricity bills will be lower with giant wind mills."

Well, if the wind's not blowing when it's time to cook dinner, do laundry or watch TV, their bills will be lower - but not for long. A charge will be added for electricity they would have used had it been available.

With all of the hydro potential, in BC building windmills there is like selling refrigerators to Eskimos.

I am still thinking of the E=mc2 article that Kate posted last week. It just explained everything perfectly.
I yearn for a politician with enough sense to push to built anothe nuclear power generator.
Our power comes from Pt. Lepreau in NB, which is going to be offline even longer than though - until 2011. Our rates are already the highest in all of Canada and are going to go up even further now that Hydro Quebec now owns the damn thing. And yet, all our gov is doing is the damn windmills as well. Everywhere.

Not only do they leave a big footprint, but they can be dangerous. Huge pieces of one broke off into someone's yard and thank goodness no one was outside as they could have been killed. The minimum distance used to be 1000 ft from homes, but now it is only 500ft to have these giant things in your backyard. People are really pissed here as their property values are down by a huge amount, as well as the fear. there are also report of the sound from them causing migraines, etc.

Here is the number to remember: 32%.

Every time someone says 64MW or 120Mw or 640Mw Wind Farm take that number and multiple it by 32%. That is the sustained output over time compared to the installed capacity.

You can also use it to determine the amount of time that NO POWER is generated at all, it is about 32% of the time again over time.

You can also use it to illustrate the footprint of each turbine in relation to a Gas/Coal/Nuclear power plant. Each turbine requires a footprint equal to approx 32% of a plant site.

This is the reality of Wind Power. We did not abandon wind power because we ran out of wind, it powered ships, ground flour,and pumped water for over a century. We just found something better.

Now we are trying to go back to move forward and it is a huge waste of time, there is nothing innovative or revolutionary about wind power. We abandoned it once before, had it any potential it would have been exploited before now, and we will abandon it again.

Never was the following ever more true,

Its hard to soar like an eagle when you are surrounded by TURKEYS".

Is it just me or was that a vulture?

I am surprised that the giant bird blenders haven't been vandalized and/or occupied by ticked off homeowners. Surely locals can borrow a play from environmentalists who disrupt Alberta oilsands facilities and UK coal plants - take out a membership in PETA, form an action group, put on a mask and go anarchists. If a police force arrives just make sure the protesters are packing fake blood and know how to put on a good show for the media.

I wonder if Jeh is hopping on an airplane to launch another lawsuit.

Looks like a vulture to me, too.

Wasn't that a California condor? Are they not considered critically endangered? In 1987, there were only 22 left in the world.

I don't think a call to Greenpeace will yield any positive results.

Not an eagle, either condor or vulture or buzzard.

Nuclear is coming,the AGW agenda pushes foreward every day, it is the only fossil fuel alternative on the table, wind,solar,tidal are niche market sources at best. Greens are going to have to face this fact soon, they are paving the way for largescale nuclear power(which I think is great).
Someday I'll have the satisfaction of being able to thanks them.

Gord Tulk: Go take a look at the top of Grouse mountain u can see it actually from Can Place.

Grouse has a Giant windmill up there, so soon they will be shutting down all the dams and flipping the switch on the fan.

From Whiterock in the south next to the US/Can border to Squamish in the North we have 1000's of Hawks and Eagles. Some 3000+ Bald Eagles show up in Squamish to feast on Salmon.

I think we need to strap Jughead Custer to the blades so he can shoo away the Hawks and Eagles. The only saving grace is maybe we can get pureed Can Geese. Those monsters are dirty toxic waste dispensers.

These arrogant SOB's just make me wanna SCREEEEEEEM.

I believe it's a turkey vulture. A bird that breeds in Saskatchewan which plays an important role in keeping our environment healthy and clean.

Yeah, my flyover state is going nuts investing in wind turbines. Believe we're first in the nation in terms of per capita wind generation. Of course, there are very few actual people living in the state so the numbers might be skewed. In terms of actual power generation capacity, believe we're third. It is my understanding that because of the lack of population which continues to dwindle [and don't let the door hit you in the axx on the way out], and the plethora of turbines they're plugging into the Tuscany-esque hilltops, they need to find adjacent states towards which to funnel the power. One wishes elected officials would pursue more than hallway, back of the napkin analysis when they're spending our billions. Simple but material strategic asset planning here takes a minimum of six months to get past the draft and another three to six to sell to the executives.
The only positive I've seen in all this so far is that a left wing environmental plant at one of the Saturday legislative sessions really had her head handed to her when she asked the Democrat manning the podium where the state was with environmental issues.

...on closer examination, this bird has a white head. Possibly an old world vulture. Spain?

You forget just how much "green" these subsidy-driven wind farms will generate for friends of the Liberals. At our expense, of course.

"largescale nuclear power(which I think is great)".

Good for you Bob I'm sure our great grandkids will love us for leaving them with all the nuclear waste they will have to pay to have stored safely in warehouses all over Canada.

One nice thing about fossil fuels is that their remnants recycled as plant food. Can the same be said for nuclear?

Sea of Corpses:

http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=3836

I'd say a buzzard.

Saw a bit of 'Power Play' is it?? (CTV with Tom Clark) yesterday, and there perched on his stool was that old baldy relic Craig Oliver.

The three journo's reminded me of one of those Gary Larson Far Side cartoons- three buzzards/vultures (Travers, Fife and Oliver) roosting on a telephone pole cross-arm.
Only thing missing was the silly caption.

So yeah, buzzard for sure.

Hey Joe, please read this then come back here and comment.

The day a polar bear grows wings and is decapitated will be the end of these lefty moonbat contraptions...Then again, the whole sorry and expensive lemon would also come crashing down too...

Where's that revolution?

You hear a loud 'whack!' and the bird goes down.
Oh, how that will fall on the deaf ears at PETA!
Where are the pet cops when we need them?

Hey pete phone Ontario Hydro and ask them what they are doing with the nuclear waste, then come back here and comment.

-http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=113820&videoChannel=-9991

Inventor makes water out of air

Oct 28 - A French inventor has come up with a windmill that turns thin air into water and says his creation could offer hope to millions of people around the world who do not have enough water.Air-to-water windmill inventor Marc Parent, through translator

====
-http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=113819&videoChannel=-9991&refresh=true

Cleantech and Washington

Oct. 28 - Dan Primack of peHUB.com examines government financing for and regulation of cleantech companies and analyzes the downside of entrepreneurs taking federal cleantech funding.

====
Boyes is the 132nd Canadian soldier to die in Afghanistan since the mission began in 2002.

-http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/Home/ContentPosting?newsitemid=boyes-ramp-ceremony-kandahar&feedname=CBC-WORLD-V3&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=True
----
For more information:

-http://www.sodahead.com/religion/obama-administration-rejects-un-anti-defamation-of-religion-resolution/news-36025/

commentor:
by donotslanderisalm posted 1 day ago

===
Stop the war and stop Muslim defamation

===
-http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=113813&videoChannel=-9991

-http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=113809&videoChannel=-9991&refresh=true

Result of hate crime against Muslim can target
innocent Muslim civilan:

Marwa El Sherbini was killed in court room in germany

-http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=113640&videoChannel=1

German on trial for Muslim murder
(01:41) Report
Oct 26 - A German man goes on trial accused of killing an Egyptian woman Marwa El-Sherbiny in a courtroom as she testified against him.

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Marwa_El-Sherbini

-http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2009/07/egypt-nationwide-rage-over-the-death-of-an-egyptian-in-germany.html

===
-http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=113701&videoChannel=1

Claim Israel curbs Palestinian water
(02:14) Report
Oct 27 - A report by the human right groups Amnesty International says that Israel is preventing Palestinians from receiving enough water in the occupied territories.

Gabriella Podimane reports.
=====

-http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=113660&videoChannel=1

Afghan protests over Koran burning
(01:50) Report
Oct 26 - Protests erupt in Afghanistan following accusations that foreign troops burned a copy of Islam's holiest book, the Koran; U.S. and NATO representatives deny this.

===
-http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=113678&videoChannel=1

Karadzic shuns war crimes trial for killing innocent Muslims

(02:48) Report
Oct. 26 - Wartime Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic boycotted the start of his trial for some of the worst atrocities in Europe since World War Two, but judges said they would proceed without him if he stayed away.

Hey Joe, how about you read these two links, then contact Ontario Hydro yourself and ask that question.
1
2

On closer examination, it appears to have a really long beak. Could it be a pelican or a crane? It appears to be a very large bird from what I can see.

Joe seems to have drank the koolaid.
I am willing to bet serious money that he believe the physics behind "The China Syndrome"....the first of the environmental misinformation Hollywood thingys.
The Sierra Club has long opposed Hydro Power and is still intent on having such dams as Boulder and Glencanyon destroyed---to free the rivers....
Meanwhile central valley California agriculture withers because of a stupid fish......something Sierra is proud of like Rachel Carson and DDT.
About DDT----this was the major tool used by the Allied liberators of Bergen/Belson to arrest the Typhus and save thousands of lives.

Someone here is a little loony and it ain't me. No energy source is problem free. Wind power is unreliable and kills lots of birds. Fossil fuels rip up a lot of land and leave a lot of CO2. Nuclear power destroys a smaller area of land than fossil fuels but it has the annoying habit of leaving radioactive material whose half life is thousands of years long. Hydro destroys a lot of land but has minimal emissions.

So of the two reliable sources of energy that are available here in Alberta it comes down to which is better Fossil Fuel or Nuclear. I've seen former coalmines reclaimed and useful crops growing where formerly there was a gaping hole with coal at the bottom. I must admit that I have never been to a uranium mine and from what I gather not much grew on the mine site before the uranium was extracted and probably not much will grow on the mine site after. Therefore to my little mind it comes down to what is left at the end of day. With all the scrubbers on the stacks etc you can stand right next to a coal fired power plant and other than the steam rising from the cooling pond never even know the thing has a fire in it. Now I also know that CO2 is coming out ot the stack but I also know that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. I don't mean that it makes the world warmer I mean the gas that greenhouse operators pump INTO their greenhouses to encourage plant growth!

Now coming out of the nuclear plant is spent fuel rods. They are not neutral they are highly radioactive. This material can not be disposed of by feeding it to plants. You don't get rid of it by feeding it to animals. If you bury the stuff you risk ground water contamination. If you leave it in its containers in specially designed warehouses there is a limit to the number of warehouses you can build. I look at the Colosseum in Rome and realize that people don't always look after things, especially things that are thousands of years old. So while we are busy using nuclear power to keep our computers sending cryptic notes to each other we are asking our long distant descendants to take care of the trash we couldn't figure out what to do with.

So lets think for a bit shall we? We could power our computers and grow more food or we could power our computers and burden our great....great grandchildren with 'glowing' barrels of stuff that won't stop 'glowing' for another twenty thousand years.

Don't get me wrong. If you can provide a fool proof way of ridding ourselves of the nuclear waste I will be the first to trumpet nuclear power. Until that time I will choose the option that does the least harm to those who will come after me.

If the car wasn't there the buzzard wouldn't have to circle..it would already be eating the dead birds at the base.

How much carbon was produced in making the steel for the towers let alone the concrete base that someone else pointed out.

I like this one that testifies to reliability.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8be_1203819244

The problem with pushing Nuclear Power is how to counteract all the lefties who will go wild with a campaign against it. I was in Saskatoon when a "Slowpoke Reactor" was put forward as a way to replace or augment the coal fired plant at the sounth endge of town. That thing still there by the way?

Joe, you really ought to read, and understand, that E=mC2 link that Kate put up last week.

Nuclear plants generate a tiny volume of waste, on the order of a few tonnes per year per plant.

And not all that "waste" is actually waste. If we were to reprocess those spent reactor rods, we could recover plutonium and possibly other isotopes and burn those as fuel in reactors designed for the purpose. This is not being done at present because of concerns that the plutonium could be illegally diverted into weapons production.

But for the waste that absolutely must be sequestered, what you do is bury it BELOW the active water table, in the tight, dry rock of the Precambrian Shield. Odds are pretty good that rock which has lasted for several billion years will hold out for another million or two; long enough for the hot waste to cool down.

And the rate at which the dangerous waste is produced is so slow, that the necessary disposal shafts could be hand-dug by chain gangs of convicted Greenpeace terrorists. Waste not, want not.

I take it you didn't read any of the links I provided, did you Joe? The first one gives you a comparison of how much coal is required vs how much radioactive waste is produced in making energy. The second and third show how radioactive waste can be eliminated safely.

I'm saying Golden Eagle and when one of those magnificent animals dies this way it is a true waste.

Anyone who has ever had the oportunity to watch an eagle hunt will never forget it. Watched a bald eagle just lazily (we thought) soaring over a lake in the Cape Breton highlands one day while doing a ground survey for INCO. Then it came down like the hammers of he11. Scratch one 3 or 4 pound trout.

Ducks? Dime a dozen.

The waste from a reactor is not tons per year. It is a very small amount. They just use on site storage of waste at existing nuclear plants. They have decades of waste, and it is only one small room. As noted, if we were rational about it, we would not consider fuel rods with 1% of the u-235 used up as waste, we would consider them fuel rods. Unfortunately, the irrational nutter types insist on the once through fuel cycle, thereby creating the problem that they then complain about.

As more research and advances are made, today's waste, and even old tailings piles will be the fuel sources of the next generation reactors. Heck, if you could extract the traces of thorium out of coal, there is more energy in that than in the coal itself.

The key here is irrational. Reasoning and logic will never convince someone who is irrational. So Gord is Kneehill, just stop trying. There is no point.

The only realistic danger with radioactive waste
is that greens will get into it and throw it around
for the hell of it.

For longterm storage it can be buried in old dry
rock. The people at Chalk River also worked out
a procedure of sintering the stuff into a ceramic.
Put it in a salt dome, use it for steps to the
Centre Block, whatever.

BTW I see that over 150 nuclear reactors are being
built worldwide. Some countries, such as the
Netherlands, would be much colder, darker, and dirtier without them.

The total waste produced by all Canadian reactors is about 7,300 cubic meters of waste (where the "waste" is fuel rods that could be reprocessed). That's since inception, folks. (http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/cnf_sectionE.htm#v)

The estimated waste by the year 2033 is double that, at 15,000 cubic meters (http://www.llrwmo.org/en/programs/ongoing/Inventory_Report_2004.pdf).

Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? But it's less than 1% of the interior volume of Toronto's Rogers Centre (or Skydome, as it used to be called). And that's the total projected amount since the first CANDU reactor started (1962) for all 17 currently running reactors for the next 14 years. Or another way to look at it: 60 years of nuclear power, producing enough waste to fill the lower seats in a large stadium.

Now, what would be the volume of bird (and bat) carcasses produced by wind-farms over a 60 year period?

Mankind is cleaning up the cubic miles of oil sands that Gaia left us.

Suzuki's Mother Earth of all oil spills !!

Now, what would be the volume of bird (and bat) carcasses produced by wind-farms over a 60 year period?

Posted by: FredR at October 29, 2009 4:57 PM

What is the volume of waste produced by the citizens of Toronto in ONE day,and shipped off???

Thank-you for the link, cjunk. The birds don't die on impact, they die long, agonizing deaths; chopped into pieces while still alive. No creature should be preyed upon like this by human beings.

If it was a greenie pet cat or dog that was slaughtered in such a cruel manner, they would be squawking at the top of their shrill lungs - and I would be on their side.

Where is PETA?

Just proves what doltish fools Sazzoookee type cult members really are - they are out to save the weather (they don't know that 'weather' is a Gerund (not a noun) in the context that they use it - they 'love' the weather...torture of living, flying creatures does not bother them at all as long as it is not a human who has shot a Canada goose for dinner. Hypocrites all - not an ounce of common sense or compassion for any living thing.

The folks that advocate a meat free diet as a means of reducing methane in the atmosphere must look at this and think - if only we could teach cows to fly".

The folks that advocate a meat free diet as a means of reducing methane in the atmosphere must look at this and think - if only we could teach cows to fly".

excanadian @ 3:42, yes, it is still there. The anti-nucs went ballistic as soon as the current government initiated a study. I guess eventually we will be living in cold damp caves if the greenies have their way. As you no doubt remember, Saskabush is deficient in caves.

Can't provide a kink but apparently the workers serving wind-power are much, much more likely to have work related fatality (falls, getting involved/ripped apart in gears/machinery)than worker in nuclear.
I shall deflate the predictable response about Chernobyle----that wasn't so much a nuclear accident as a symptom of a failed political system---that also indulged in disposing of nuclear waste in the arctic ocean...for example.

Al Gore has a plan!

http://planetgore.nationalreview.com/post/?q=N2MwMTU4ODM4NDYwZWZlNzFjOGQ2YTY1NTE0NTk0NWI=

pkuster at October 29, 2009 10:13 AM

The Wolfe Island wind farm, built at a cost of $480 million, is being payed 27 cents/kWHr.

mecheng at October 29, 2009 10:24 AM

Apparently it tastes like chickern :-)

The economics make no sense, but that doesn't matter to a greeny, its the warm and fuzzies that matter.

It is like buying a Prius, and paying the extra $10k fr the privilege, so, over 5 years, thats about a $200/mo premium, to save $50/mo in gas..... it makes no sense to you and me.

That's Obamanomics for you!

Hey, great video of the wind mill. So, if I put one up in my back yard will I still have to buy a migratory bird license every fall?

an air conditioner on a stick , whoopee ding.

-http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=113820&videoChannel=-9991

drill a well for a 10 of the price. imagine maintaining these with people just out of the stone age.

Specifically, if that 'hybrid' costs you an extra $10,000, that's $167/month premium. You gave up your 30 mpg car for this new 60mpg one, drving 10,000 miles per year with $1/litre gas, you save $63/month on gas. You're still paying $104/month more than before. Not to mention having to replace the batteries after 8-10 years is it? Anybody know how much replacing batteries will cost?

Darwin in action! Stupid bird. They'll learn and I can sleep well secure in the knowledge that their eggshells are thick.

Anyone seen this? From the ever entertaining Fail Blog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty-vH42H_7k

just cover the blades like this:

-http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=electrical+fan+photo&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=7ZDrSsv-Moi6lAfYnO3_BA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQsAQwAA

blades:

-http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ei=K5HrSqrSNNSzlAekqNj_BA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAsQBSgA&q=blade+of+electric+fan+photo&spell=1

or ask countries with nuclear energy and agriculture for food ( chicken turkey and beef, eggs wheat) to help eachother if Iran behave no bother nonMuslim and Canada not bother restriced muslim here, slash wild horese Iran to listen and pinch lazy Canadian to work harder to open market of food

For example Beef turkey and chicken sell in halal in worlds while it slaugh halal they sell it as halal purpose or nohalal purpse this can be done in Canada too but need to open market of middle east there by help from govermnet of canada to help this because brazil goverment help their farmers more canada can do better

middle eastern are wild just calm them down and fill thier stomack not keep them angry for war

Canada has lack of educated scientist and Iran has too many but not have resources to used it

open trade between Iran nuclear energy and Canada