Travers is one of the most ignorant and biased of our many ignorant and biased media hacks.

His antipathy towards Harper and the Conservatives is endless and his hostility towards any centrist or conservative policy is equally rancid.

He's supposed to be a journalist; instead, he's a hack. There are NOT 46 million uninsured in the US and the fact that he doesn't know or refuses to acknowledge how often and how publicly it has been explained, clearly, how this number is inflated by at least - tells you something about his agenda. His agenda isn't truth. It's propaganda for the Liberals/Democrats.

About 10 million are not US citizens. Another 17 million live in middle class households and could purchase insurance but choose not to (it's cheaper to pay the doctor/dentist directly). Another 18 million are young and again, choose not to have such insurance. The real number of uninsured, is about 11 to 19 million. Google 'real number of uninsured' and you'll find some facts. Travers isn't interested in facts and never has been.

Our MSM in Canada is, to use Traver's hyperbole, 'bizarre and unhitched from reality'.

Oh, and Traver's declaration that the leading cause of personal bankruptcies in the US is due to medical bills - has been shown as a myth. By our very own Fraser Institute.

"Brett Skinner, author of Health Insurance and Bankruptcy Rates in Canada and the United States and Fraser Institute director of bio-pharma, health and insurance policy research, says the evidence doesn’t support the bankruptcy claim".

He writes: "If socialized medicine played a role in reducing personal bankruptcies, we would expect to see a lower rate of personal bankruptcy in Canada compared to the United States. Yet the reverse is true. The personal bankruptcy rate is actually higher in Canada than it is in the U.S.,” he said.

Skinner compared bankruptcy data in the U.S. and Canada from 2006 and 2007, and found that personal (non-business) bankruptcy filings as a percentage of the population were 0.2 per cent in the U.S. during 2006 and 0.27 per cent in 2007. In Canada, the numbers are 0.3 per cent in both 2006 and 2007."

Got that, Mr. Travers? A few minutes of research has shown that your entire data base is totally false. This means - that your data base about the number of uninsured and your data base about the causes of personal bankruptcy..are invalid.

This also means that you are writing rubbish. Ah well, even being a hack is a job in these 'troubled times'.

When the pendulum does it's inevitable swing back to the sanity of the right, Travers will be near the top of the list of those who will have to duck the quickest.

Perhaps somebody should email Apparatchik Travers with the pertinent articles about how B.C. is cutting procedures so they can buy carbon offsets.

Better humans dead that Gaia.

People inthe right try and convince those on the left that they have the correct opinion. Those on the left demand that those on the right agree with them - if they don't they are derided as being fanatical or stupid. When asked to debate those on the left fall upon slogans rather than argument; catchphrases rather than evidence. They are they definition of elitists

Ah, James Travers, a journalistic travesty.

Travers is a socialist foghorn and nothing else.

ET's summery covers the issue perfectly, but idiots like Travers aren't interested in facts or debate, just an eventual Liberal government appointment for toeing the line.

No one take the MSM seriously anymore and Travers is perfect example of why that is.

Gord:

It's becoming quite apparent you have become a Thought Criminal.

Report for re-education immediately.

Travers is certainly familiar with the concept of that behavior is "bizarre and unhitched from reality".

He looks in the mirror every day.

Or maybe it is his reflection back from the bottom of a bottle.

Either way, he is a gifted Toronna liberal looney tune.

[quote]leading cause of personal bankruptcy[/quote]

That is nonsense… The people that could afford health insurance (young professionals) “roll the dice” on a variety of life choices including insurance (Life, auto, health) They build a portfolio on these savings & credit debt and live a life style beyond the means of normal people. These risk-taking opportunists are encouraged by the bankruptcy “Life-line” that resets debt when they lose, they don’t attach any stigma to multiple bankruptcies.

They built the wealth by not paying for reasonable insurance, and they rightly lose that wealth when they gamble and lose.

Healthcare is but one of reasons these freeloaders find themselves in financial difficulty. The Obama Health care will not change the bankruptcy life style of these people. (see MA experience of ppl who don’t pay & then when requiring health care are allowed a catch –up, they then promptly stop paying)

In response to Pelosi's comment of the swastika in the crowd, photographic evidence shows there was a sign in the crowd with a swastika, which was underneath the red circle with a diagonal line through it.

That would be symbolic of ‘No National Socialist-style healthcare.' Tireless research has shown one of the first act of the Third Reich was to install a single-payer health care system.

Of course, Pelosi stands for a party which every day is moving closer and closer to National Socialistm, and bristles at the mere mention of its evil right-wing twin, the Nazi Party.

Yes, who started that ugly rumor?.

"The President: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that's part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It's not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that's part of what I suspect you'll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now."

It boogles the mind that it wouldn't make a tinkers-damn who the Conservative was, in the Liberals mind they are evil.

For Christmas presents this year "Homage to Catalonia" is looking real good.
,

How could she have possibly won the debate when her "death panels" have been shown to be completely made up. Didn't lyin' Palin recently lecture the media "to quit making things up"?
And of course Palin, Grassley and the rest of the bought and paid for insurance mouthpieces were for "death panels" before they were told to be against them.
And ET, the Fraser Institute? They're as reliable as Glen Beck and Fixed Noise.
about 10 million are not US citizens. Another 17 million live in middle class households and could purchase insurance but choose not to (it's cheaper to pay the doctor/dentist directly). Another 18 million are young and again, choose not to have such insurance. The real number of uninsured, is about 11 to 19 million.

10 plus 17 plus 18 million is 45 million UNINSURED.

Yes, pillboy, there are no death panels now. They will come in later when rationing has to decide who gets care and who doesn't (and when). And if some people die before their place in the queue, well that just shortens the line, doesn't it. Or is there a strange universe where socialism doesn't lead to line-ups?

Remember, access to the queue is not the same as access to health care. Seems to me that there's a Canadian legal precident to that effect....

Very true Gord, I find this topic fascinating. I've come to the conclusion that the political left has been hijacked. I say this because I often wonder if I'd have been a Democrat decades ago. Guys like Ron Paul claim to be the "real" conservatives, often reminiscing about the old days. Ron Paul's views are very different from mine regarding protectionism and foreign policy; so I’d imagine I’d support the opposite of Ron Paul generally speaking. Today it seems everyone with common sense has been jammed into the right, conservatives and traditional liberals. IMO the left today is simply a vehicle individuals use to push their personal agendas with no regard for the consequences. The left only thinks short-term looking backwards or forwards. They depend on the public’s apathy towards politics and have managed to maintain their traditional liberal guise because of the pathetic marketing of the right-wing. I can’t know for certain, but I imagine there was a time when the left and the right could have rational and productive debates.

Swastikas in the crowd? say it ain't so Po!

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/08/busted.html

did the left save all those signs they used while they slammed George Bush? they could simply have written "O" in place and recycled?

It is so encouraging to see Commisar philboy in agreement with the sanctity of human life.

Those who reported just yesterday that the Fraser Valley Health Authority would cut back on surgeries, services for senior citizens and the mentally ill are merely mouthpieces for running-dog capitalists.

It is merely insurance company propoganda that those services are being cut to pay for the FVHA's $600,000 outlay for carbon offsets.

The apparatchik who said just a month before that carbon offsets would not affect level of service must be believed, since he is part of the intellectually-superior ruling class.

Any report of service cuts are lies, perpetrated by the same enemies of order who claim that National Socialism is a left-wing philosophy. Have they not seen how its evil right-wing twin, the Nazi Party, trip up our secular progressive march to utopia?

Thank you, Commisar philboy for casting your doubt upon the imperialist oppressor insurance companies and standing up for the sanctity of human life.

Those journalists (?) dare to say Death panels are a bizarre hyperbole-they must know who the Czars are and what they believe or choose not to.

Science Czar Holdren quote from his book with Ehrlich:

" Adding a sterilant to drinking water or staple foods is a suggestion that seems to horrify people more than most proposals for involuntary fertility control. Indeed, this would pose some very difficult political, legal, and social questions, to say nothing of the technical problems. No such sterilant exists today, nor does one appear to be under development. To be acceptable, such a substance would have to meet some rather stiff requirements: it must be uniformly effective, despite widely varying doses received by individuals, and despite varying degrees of fertility and sensitivity among individuals; it must be free of dangerous or unpleasant side effects; and it must have no effect on members of the opposite sex, children, old people, pets, or livestock."

http://www.examiner.com/x-722-Conservative-Politics-Examiner~y2009m7d16-Science-Czar-John-P-Holdrens-disturbing-beliefs-about-America-capitalism-and-humanity

Phillie, of that 45 million, 35 million CHOOSE to not be insured and the other 10 million aren't even citizens. Step away from the bong and pay attention.

"Death panels" was not made up, it referred to mandatory 'end of life' counseling that Obama tried to force onto the elderly and infirm, as part of a 'cost saving measure'. It was hyperbole used as a rhetorical device to emphasize a point, and every thinking person that heard it understood it as such. Further support for the death panel comment may be found in Ezekial Emanual, Barry O!'s health czar, who is in favour of reducing benefits to those who are no longer 'productive'.

Sarah is not and was not in favour of death panels, she was and is in favour of people being informed so that they can make an informed decision in their own best interest, not in the interest of saving the system money.

ah Travers...one of the giants. sarc//off

philboy your really are one sick f*ck.

I think it was Kathy Shaidle (coulda been Wendy, my apologies if I'm wrong) who gave me the best line to use down here when discussing Health Care with Americans. When someone goes off on a rant about the Palin comment or even discussing rationally, it becomes clear early on in the debate that the term "rationing" does not have the correct meaning to them. As Kathy said to do, replace "rationing" with "waiting line" and you almost see the light bulb coming on. After that, the Palin comment seems to strike deeper and cause a little bit of deeper thinking at least.

Anytime I debate someone here (US) and explain my experiences in Canada, they pull out the "anecdotal evidence!" line. Invariably however, the only personal anecdotal evidence they can contribute about care here is positive! I know there are bad cases everywhere, but as the stats have indicated, there are a large number of the "uninsured" who are CHOOSING to have no health insurance, which to me, invalidates their anecdotal experience. If i get crappy coverage on my car and drive into a tree, me having to pay for the damage is not a failing of the car insurance industry.

I recall the derision and disdain meted out to Ronald Reagan by the left of the day. I was on the other side then; so, really, I think Taranto is correct, this is just plain snobbery.

philboy - as usual, you don't provide any evidence, empirical or logical, for your opinions.

Kindly provide some evidence that the Fraser Institute's research is 'worthless'. I'm assuming that you consider Beck worthless otherwise, why did you refer to him?
In my view, Beck relies on hard factual data. But since you don't watch him - then, you wouldn't know that.

Could you also provide evidence to support your claim that Palin is a 'bought and paid for insurance mouthpiece"? Thanks in advance.

The use of the '45 million uninsured' by Travers (and whether it's 45 or 46 isn't the point) is that Travers and other hacks considered them medically 'marooned' (his term).

But, as so many have pointed out, this is untrue. They do get medical care, and pay direct - just as so many of us do with our dentists and eye doctors - because our health care doesn't cover them.

I'll bet you also didn't read Palin's article on her Facebook! If you had, you'd know that she was talking about a slippery slope scenario where a single-source health care system would eventually have to, because of costs, limit access to its resources, and this access would inevitably be denied to terminal or elderly people.

You probably haven't read the Health Care bill, which does talk about 'giving guidance' to the terminal or elderly - an ambiguous and worrisome concept, for guidance is expected from all medical practiioners right from the moment of birth. So - why mention it only for this age-set?

Again, how about some facts and logic rather than just ranting.

Philboy (12:35), it's dishonest to add those who could purchase insurance, but decide it's cheaper to pay the doctor/dentist directly, to numbers of "uninsured." If you're going to do that, let's add up all those who don't drive, including children, and describe them as part of the group who don't -- gasp -- have automobile insurance.

The term "uninsured" is, as wielded by the Democrats in the US debate, sideways shorthand for "not having access to medical care," but it's inaccurate. Hypothetically, for the sake of argument, suppose that everyone had enough money to pay doctors directly, and had no need for insurance: if someone said "one-hundred percent of Americans have no health insurance!" they would be entirely correct, but it wouldn't mean what YOU would suggest it to mean.

If Sarah Palin is such a lightweight, why do all the lefty, intellectual (oxymoron) pontificators jump and froth at her statements. The left is so predictable, so amusing, so easily provoked. Reminds me of an ant hill that is poked and all the ants come out angry and ready to bite but don't know how to find the target. Cheers.

I lived in the USA as a young man back in the sixties and seventies. I worked with several others in my age group. None of us had health insurance. We were young and healthy. I remember going to a doctor and paying cash for a check up. I remember my son being born and paying several hundred dollars for the two day hospital stay.

There are risks in life and sometimes some of us lose and or suffer and or die.

To try to provide everyone with a fault-free and risk-free life is communistic folly. It cannot be done. What would life be without risk anyway?

For god's sake any of you leftist fraidy cats out there, grow up! Your ass ain't gold and you aren't special. You are going to eventually get sick and die. That is part of life ... accept that and get on with it.

Anyone who wants health care will simply need to find a way to get it. Most people find ways to get everything else they want in life ... like big wide TVS, new cars, vacations, homes, furniture, drugs, alcohol, clothes, entertainment etc. Does anyone think they have a right or a guarantee to get any of those things courtesy of government?

Health care is a service, you need to pay for services. Not everything can be paid for through taxation ... although I know there are many who think so.

Posted by: Fred
**Or maybe it is his reflection back from the bottom of a bottle.

Either way, he is a gifted Toronna liberal looney tune.**

Yeah two great minds think alike.....
It's as plain as the nose on his face.....
He really supports the left and Seagrims..........

When I read this story, and many others on Small Dead Animals, I can't help but remember small town Saturday afternoon beer parlours before .08 and the Breathanalyzer was introduced. It was even worst when it rained.

We'd be sitting a dozen guys or so at a large round table. After about 6 glasses of draft, one guy would be talking about his wheat crop, the other guy would be talking about his tractor, another might be talking about the neighbour's wife running around with Parson Smith while the next guy would be talking about medicare. .

We had an excuse, we were drunk! God you people! Get your thoughts organized, and write them that way! And stick to the bloody topic!

Yes, the "dumb-one" did win the debate. The "dumb-one" also won when she resigned from her governorship, but the left would tell you otherwise. Democrats claim they “want” Sarah Palin to lead the GOP; and, they want her to flap her gums as much as possible because it would lead to the inevitable destruction of the GOP. Well, the Democrats got their wish and Sarah Palin resigned her governorship, and can now speak unconstrained(straight talk) like a regular person. No harm could possible come from that; a hillbilly, with no job speaking her mind. It’s not like it’s America… wait; it is America, and one person no matter how small can make a difference.

The left should be terrified that Sarah Palin isn’t working 80hrs a week running a state, and is free to do, and say what she wants.

You've got a point, joe citizen. Now, is the topic about a beer chat or about the left's view of medical care as differentiated from the view of the right?
Every single post has been on this theme.

But so what if one thought leads to another? That's the strength of the human mind; it doesn't operate like a machine, programmed to only chug along tick-tock up to 12 and back again. The human mind is capable of links, connections, networking. Kindly allow us the right to think, joe citizen, rather than insisting that we behave as machines.

"10 plus 17 plus 18 million is 45 million UNINSURED."

Philboy

If you're going to count those that are not American in your number for uninsured; why not just say 2-3 billion uninsured?

Also, would you deny the rights of those that choose not to purchase coverage; or, would you force it on them because you know best?

If you were intellectually honest, you'd admit the number is around 15 million AMERICANS who CANNOT get insurance and work constructively with those that would like to see it that all AMERICANS have ACCESS to health coverage. Instead, you're intellectually dishonest and would rather obliterate a system that provides 250 million+ people with excellent healthcare simply to push your political agenda forward.

You parents would be ashamed at the nonsense you spew; and more importantly, you'll be embarrassed of your political views when you grow-up.

Palin beat the pants off Obama on the death panels debate because she told it like it is, whereas Obama told it like he was told to tell it, not knowing whether it was true or not; Obama can't even lie without help. And Obama got caught... by Palin herself.

James Travers is nothing more than a glorified, paid, full-of-it, extreme left-wing blogger whose "blog" happens to be a piece of paper sold in far-left Toronto.

He's just another windbaggy crank hysterically screaming about a woman named Sarah Palin, just because he wants to copy the rest of the Left as it hysterically screams about her for no reason at all, except they're insane, stupid and want to "belong" to the supposedly-"cool" Left-wing crowd, no matter what the cost to their integrity.

pillboy

we have, here in Kanada people being refused certain health services BECAUSE OF THEIR AGE

and why in h1ll would anyone put anything connected with END OF LIFE choices in a health care bill. Would it be because they want to Rahm it through without being read, and so to avoid the messy debate on such a topic if it was presented solo????

"END OF LIFE choices in a health care bill."

Very true GYM, there appears to be a paradox in play with "END OF LIFE choices in a health care bill."

btw Joe C

Who says we're not drunk?

"Your father was a computer, like his son ... from a planet of traitors." Capt Kirk

The Fraser Institute did a comparison study about personal bankruptcy of Canadians and Americans. The facts assert something totally opposite of Travers “opinion”. Of course you can’t expect a Toronto liberal leftist mouthpiece like Travers to give it the least bit of consideration. After all, he’s a “journalist”. They know everything.
Check it out.

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/researchandpublications/publications/6786.aspx

In 2008, there were 1,117,771 bankruptcy in the United States courts. Of those, 744,424 were chapter 7 bankruptcies, while 362,762 were chapter 13. Personal bankruptcies may be caused by a number of factors. In 2008, over 96% of all bankruptcy filings were non-business filings, and of those, approximately two-thirds were chapter 7 cases. The American Journal of Medicine says over 3 out of 5 personal bankruptcies are due to medical debt. That would be where the 60% came from.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/american_journal_of_medicine_09.pdf

I believe we should laugh at Jim Travers if he continues to be such an assfool clown like this.

He's making a laughingstock of himself.

Then again, he works for a laughingstock of a newspaper, the Toronto Star.

Laugh away, folks. Make him realize that he's not going to be taken seriously if he spews such silly-extremist propaganda.

And anyone who acts like Travers ought to be the butt of jokes as well.

There's nothing wrong with Sarah Palin. No one ever found anything wrong with her, yet they spew these lies as if they had. We ought to deride them as "Paliners".

Hey, Travers, Nelson from The Simpsons points at you and says "Ha-ha!"

"one guy would be talking about his wheat crop"

BS, Joe, the whole table would be talking about the crop! (Sorry, couldn't resist...)
Advocates of health care reform got stuck with this arrogant, ill planned obozo strategy and it's fun to watch. Obozo has left them with an indefensible, undefined package of legislation which even legislators admit they haven't read. Good for us, bad for them. Consequently they're stuck howling about the millions of uninsured or the bankruptcy myth.

2008 Consumer Bankruptcy Statistics
Comparison with U.S. / Per Capita Rates
(Note: N.W.T., Yukon & Nunavut are omitted.)

The latest U.S. bankruptcy statistics for the year ended December 31, 2008 reports 1,074,225 (Note: 1) consumer filings. The U.S. population, projected to December 31, 2008, by the U.S. Bureau of the Census, is 303,825,000. This is a rate of 4.7 filings/thousand.

The latest Canadian bankruptcy statistics for the year ended December 31, 2008 reports consumer insolvency (bankruptcy and consumer proposals) filings of 115,789. Statistics Canada reports the Canadian population, projected to July 1, 2008 to be 33,213,000. This is a rate of 3.5 filings/thousand. Saskatchewan has the lowest rate in Canada with 1.8 insolvencies per thousand.

http://www.bankruptcycanada.com/bankstats1.htm

Sorry ET, I'll know better next time, I'll listen to your advice.

Dear Kate:

I like medicare, I think medicare is good. But the other day, I went to start my F-150, and the battery was dead. So I phoned my neighbour Zeke, and asked for a boost. He says, "Joe, I don't like boosting other trucks with my new Dodge. But your truck is a stick shift, so I'll go and tow you with my old 4020 John Deere. . But I lost the drawpin for the 4020. So how about we go to Peavy Mart, I'll get a drawpin and you get a new tow rope. Remember, the last time I pulled you, you broke the tow rope."
On the way out of the house, my girlfriend (aka live in) reminds me to buy condoms. She's got a bad case of yeast infection, , and the doc says that's catchy.
So Zeke and I drive to Peavy Mart to get a new pin, and a new tow rope. But inside the Peavy Mart, I see a new pair of Carhart coveralls that I like, , so I decide to try them on. Meanwhile, Zeke goes looking for a new draw pin for his 4020. But on his way to the pin department, he sees a chain saw he likes, so he takes the chain saw to the front counter, and forgets his draw pin. I take the coveralls to the other till, and I forget the damned tow rope.

On the way home, we decide to stop at the liquor store in Broken Arrow, Sk. We buys a mickey and a six pack for the way home.

We get home, no draw pin, no tow rope, and we're slightly hammered. The battery on the F-150 is still dead. Zeke has a new chain saw and I have new Carharts. Zeke then realizes that he has no trees on his property, neither do I, so we can't try the chain saw. I forgot the tow rope, so I don't need the coveralls, I can't work on my truck until I get it started, and find out what's wrong with the alternator.
Zeke drives home half snapped, and I walk to the house in even worst shape. Then Lola asks: "Joe, did you bring the condoms??" I answer, "Sorry Lola--I forgot."

That was 10 days ago. The F-150 is still stalled in the back of the barn, now both batteries are dead on Zeke's 4020. And I'v got this funny thing growing on my..........
But Lola and I have medicare, so we're not worried. Well, I shouldn't say not worried. We'll know more when our tests get back from Regina....

ET: This is what happens when you don't stick to the topic.

I can't see how anyone can even get past the first paragraph of a Travers artical. Not even to see whats happening on the other side of the hill. Despite the fossilized socialist pablum there's just nothing to provoke unintended laughter unlike say a Margolis blurb.

Just for Joe Citizen:

Travers is bad.

Satisfied? Did I stay on topic?

Your welcome.

No death panels? I wonder how they managed to remove them if they didn't exist in the first place.

"The Senate Finance Committee will drop a controversial provision on consultations for end-of-life care from its proposed healthcare bill, its top Republican member said Thursday. The committee, which has worked on putting together a bipartisan healthcare reform bill, will drop the controversial provision after it was derided by conservatives as "death panels" to encourage euthanasia."

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/finance-committee-to-drop-end-of-life-provision-2009-08-13.html

I looked at the main conclusions of the Fraser Institute. While 2008 data was available, it didn't support their conclusions, so they took it back to 2006-2007 data. I posted the 2008 data. The 2009 data may again be different once the results come in.

joe citizen - nope, reducing to irrelevant drivel isn't a sign-of-thinking, but of not thinking.

Again, the human mind isn't a machine and is supremely capable of links, connections, networking. That is the strength of our species; it means that we can come up with novel solutions and adapt to new situations.

Machines can't do that. And your trivial drivel is a symptom of a machine that has broken. Not a sign of a human mind capable of making connections and links between data.

By the way, Ed Morrissey had a great post on Hot Air on Obama's style of heh, leadership:

"Yet Obama seems content with his role as salesman instead of executive, speaking around the country in support of a bill that he hasn’t read."

And "Of the big three agenda items Obama has pushed this year, one might have expected him to get most personally involved in health-care reform, the one issue that started with bipartisan support both in the Beltway and among the electorate. Instead, he has floated above the fray and above the details and the hard work, and it shows. When nuggets like Section 1233 come to light, the White House response has been late, incorrect, and usually more damaging than the initial criticisms."

"Obama’s not leading. He’s campaigning, and doing that on a float of ignorance about the very bill he touts. Giuliani has it right — this is the President with no leadership clothes at all."

Right - and campaigning, which is all Obama can do, means that he rejects hard facts and data, misinforms the electorate, manipulates them with emotions of fear and hope, and, if they reject him, he accuses them of bias.

Oh, and remember Obama's claim of 'post-partisanship'? Well, Rasmussen polls say that Americans at first believed that his government would be less partisan. Only 40% at first thought he'd be partisan. Now, it's moved up to 67% think govt will make decisions based on partisanship. That's due to Obama, Pelosi and Reid.

Obama’s not leading. He’s campaigning

You're right ET but then again what else should we expect from him? I don't think it was even his idea to run for president! The back room boys needed a 'face' so they latched on to the most shallow, vain person they could find. Of course it could be argued that anyone with any degree of depth would never have made this 'deal with the devil'. The big question that keeps coming to my mind is, how long until this fraud is exposed?

PS: I almost forgot. Lola wanted milk and bread.

Les,

Could it be that 2008 and 2009 the economies of the two nations suffered the turn down in very different ways and as such comparisons would not be nearly as valid.

If one wants to pull a single reason out of the data for bankruptcy one would need to look at many years and take into account known differences for each year.

There is always going to be a difference just based on the way the systems are setup but if 2/3 of all American bankruptcy where solely health care related one would expect Canadians would have 1/3 the number of bankruptcy's per person unless your claiming Canadians are some how 3 times more irresponsible with their money?
This is what the FI study points out, if the Canadian rate is 3/1000 based on the 2/3 number the American number should be at least 6 and closing in on 9 when as you pointed out even in 08 with the US getting hit by the turn down harder it was only 4...

Joe:

Sounds like she got bread.

I agree with you duffman. To a point. Any reasonable comparison would have to take into account many years - not just a select few. In 2008 the U.S. was going thru a recession and many lost their jobs. With those jobs went their health insurance. And personal bankruptcies increased. many because of no health insurance. If you look at the Canadian bankruptcies for the first half of 2009 ( since we were a little behind them ) you'll see our bankruptcies have also increased. I don't have the first half of U.S. bankruptcies to compare, now that we're both in recession. There are many reasons for bankruptcy and in the U.S., medical bills is just one of them. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume ( with or without a study ) that there are more people in the U.S. ( per capita ) that go bankrupt because of medical bills than in Canada. I don't know of anyone in Canada that has lost their home or business as a result of medical bills.
Both the Canadian and U.S. health care systems have a lot of faults. No use even comparing them. It's apples to oranges. And Obama isn't suggesting they use the Canadian system anyways. He spoke of that the other day.

First of all, don't talk to T or phillboy. They are trolls. This blog is for talking, not wasting time trying to convince idiots of anything. Just saying.
It makes Travers (and others) feel intellectually superior to bash Sarah Palin's alleged short-comings but- at the end of the day- that's all they have. She saw right through the dreck and called it. It bothers them to KNOW (not think) that someone out their kicks their butts every time.

I do know of someone who lost everything here in Canada due to our health care system, sadly they didn't live long enough on the waiting list to get around to the bankruptcy paperwork.

les and duffman - yes, you are right. Bankruptcies cannot be reduced to a single cause, medical or otherwise.
That's why, for example, Travers is completely wrong to claim that most US personal bankruptcies are due to medical costs.

I don't think the Fraser study was about causes of bankruptcies but about a comparison of one cause - and as noted in other reports, in the US, it was easier to declare bankruptcy than in Canada, until 2006.

There's another factor to this causality. In the US, you CAN pay for treatment. You cannot do so in Canada, even if you have the money. So, in the US, it is feasible for a family to move into bankruptcy to assist a loved one, while in Canada, such an option is not available - unless you go to the US for treatment. And, to do that, requires a lot of money - more than a road to bankruptcy.

Les - as for Obama saying that he didn't want the Canadian system, my advice is never, ever, believe a word Obama says. His words are always rhetorical; that is, they have a political not factual purpose. He was trying to calm fears, based on what Americans are hearing about the Canadian and UK systems. But, if you read his bill, it will inevitably lead to the demise of the private insurance system.

On another note, with regard to Obama's bill, note that he has now taken to calling it 'my bill' and 'I won't or will do..'. Rather than OUR bill. Why the switch to a personal rather than Democratic Party bill? Because the Democrats, and that includes Pelosi, Reid, Specter et al, are becoming viewed in a very unfavourable light. Obama, despite the drop in his polls, still has a smidge of favourability to him - and that's why he's been Told to Link the Health bill to himself.

Of course, since he didn't read, much less write it - that's yet another dishonest statement.

Ah yes! Travers that fountain of wisdom and profound knowledge.

I suspect that If any of the Red Rag Riters ever produced something with actual facts, without the lefty slant ... and IF the editors published it... they'd get bombarded with complaints from their readers.

How's the rag doing as a business?

Faster Please!

Oshumash:

I invoke my First Amendment right to communicate with whichever troll I'd like to communicate with.

By speaking their language and agreeing with their rhetoric, it creates a bridge of understanding.

Remember, parody is our best weapon.

Anybody can do it. Just listen to the speeches from the NDP conventin this weekend and formulate your own anti-capitalist, pro-totalitarian rhetoric.

The troll will believe you agree with them when, in fact you are laughing at their lunacy by mocking their ideas which have proven to not have worked anywhere, any time in the history of humanity.

Remember, they're the insane ones, who keep speaking out of the same playbook of failed regimes in the hope that the outcome will be different.

There's no sense getting mad about it.

Chill, have some fun.

I can picture Old Man Travesty as he prepares his regular diatribes for The Red Star:

Hunched over and squinting at the screen, a line of spittle trickling from one corner of his nervously twitching mouth while he searches his vast database of reusable slurs for gems like "Bizarre and unhitched from reality", "Inflaming fear with fiction" and "mob rule", accusing his political enemies of "wild hyperbole" even while pouring bucket after bucket of hyperbole and caustic scorn onto them, all interspersed with uncontrollable giggling, snickering, snorting and the regular expulsion of nasty greenhouse gases in self-satisfaction.

Kind of like an older, fatter, flakier Inspector Dreyfus in the Pink Panther movies.

Fewer and fewer people take what Travesty says seriously but occasionally his columns can be transfixing, like a train wreck.

As the headline suggests, since the phrase that inspired the ‘death panels' has now been rescinded, Sarah Palin has outsmarted Dear Leader Obama.

Apparently, Travers still hasn't caught on to the fact the phrase, which pays doctors for end-of-life consultation, has been taken out.

Dummy No. 2.

Indiana et al:

this is a book By Thomas sowell I intend to read before Christmas:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d.html/ref=mp_s_a_7/183-9661000-4975550?qid=1250373029&a=046508995X&sr=8-7

And this column by dr Charles krauthammer explains why more preventative healthcare - which Obama is claiming to be the big money saver - will make it far more expensive.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/13/AR2009081302898.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns

This quote from fupenguin.com “on the origin of douchebags” pretty much sums up my
thoughts about James Travers, The MSM and Teh Won.

“Personally, I'm not going to be seduced by some dinosaur wanna-be that thinks a laid-back demeanor and a shit-eating grin is going to convince me to sully my honor”.

Sarah Palin exagerated? Than why the backtracking ? Why an amendment?

Emanuel Changes Mind on Death Panels!

ConservativeAmerican.org
Leading the way Right

By Peter Andrew

Former VP Candidate Sarah Palin scores another victory in her truthful claim of health plan “death panels.” The Washington Times says…
Dr. Ezekiel J. Emanuel, the White House official targeted by Sarah Palin and other conservatives as an advocate for health care rationing and “death panels,” said Thursday his “thinking has evolved” on the need to decide who gets treated and who does not. “When I began working in the health policy area about 20 years ago … I thought we would definitely have to ration care, that there was a need to make a decision and deny people care,” said Dr. Emanuel, a health care adviser to President Obama in the Office of Management and Budget, during a phone interview. “I think that over the last five to seven years … I’ve come to the conclusion that in our system we are spending way more money than we need to, a lot of it on unnecessary care,” he said. “If we got rid of that care we would have absolutely no reason to even consider rationing except in a few cases.”

[quote]To try to provide everyone with a fault-free and risk-free life is communistic folly. It cannot be done. What would life be without risk anyway? [/quote]Momar

You would fit the mold of a typical American, but this generation wants to take the RISK & rewards, but not the consequences (free loaders). They are throwing away the American dream & won't enjoy the same perks (rewards) for success that was common of my generation . Socialist America will become the global service industry..

Palin has pointed out one, of many, problems in the "Jelly Ball" Congressional Bill. Congress has been passing these ambiguous (scum ball lawyers make sure they are ambiguous), bull shit bills that can mean anything to anyone. The bill is a "Jelly Ball" that the Obama administration will implement in any way they please... Courts will have to resolve the issues with implementation.

Look at the Obama administration and ask yourself the following questions.
Do they represent the average American?
Do you trust them?
Why does Congress write “Jelly Ball” bills ?
Why will Congress give a "Jelly Ball" to Obama?

Phillip:

What means Jelly Ball and what are its origins?

I tried to get the picture of President Bush with a bullethole in his forehead but I am not that good. As a consolation prize though I have a zombietime link of Pelosi People showing the love.
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/

I've been reading the back-and-forth regarding bankruptcies, and how they are being attributed to medical bills.

What seems to have been overlooked by both sides in this particular debate is that if you become seriously ill, you cannot work. If you don't work, you have no income. Your expenses continue, though. Not everyone has disability insurance, and it certainly is not part of Canadian Medicare, is it?

And disability insurance, if you do have it, often has limitations on it.

I suggest that it is the loss of income brought on by illness that is the primary driver for medically-related bankruptcies, and the fact that bankruptcy rates differ only slightly between Canada and the U.S.A. is consistent with that.

Why anyone reads the Star still remains a mystery

>"I think that over the last five to seven years … I’ve come to the conclusion that in our system we are spending way more money than we need to, a lot of it on unnecessary care,” he said. “If we got rid of that care we would have absolutely no reason to even consider rationing except in a few cases.”"> Ezekiel Emanuel.

We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.

Ezekiel Emanuel in The Lancet, January 2009

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2809%2960137-9/fulltext#article_upsell

These guys lie as easily as they breath.

My guess is Joe Citizen is a linear thinker. BTW, I liked your story - broke the monotony - humour is always good - I do hope you meant to be funny. ET can always be counted on to give a well thought out synopsis. Good luck with the test results...may have to wait awhile though - after all this is Canadian Health Care.

Joe Citizen, you strike me more as a volvo guy than an F150 type.

Travers repeats his talking points well, eh? That bilge looks like he did a cut/paste from on of Barry's speeches.

Mr. Travers has obviously enjoyed good health his whole life, as have his close relatives. Or he's getting major payola from the Liberals. Outside possibility, they have pictures of him doing something he'd rather everyone not know about.

Sarah Palin speaks the truth on this issue. "Death panels" is an accurate description. Its a panel of bureaucrats (not doctors, note) who decide which patients are going to get the required procedures and which ones are going to get the dirt nap.

Please note that -buying- the procedure will not be possible for those denied coverage by the Death Panel. To get private procedures you will have to leave the country.

You know, like we do.

No-One:

RE: Lineal thinking: The closest path between two points is almost the straight line.

Sorry"" That should read:

Re: Lineal thinking. The closest path between two pints is almost always the straight line.

Gosh--I'm losing my linear thinking.

That should have read: The closest path between two points is almost always the straight line."

Unless you're drawing a line across a basketball. Then the curve becomes the straight line. So said my Geometry teacher, whom I fell in love with in Grade 10. She and I went for a ride in the country one day. She wanted to give me a ride in her new VW beetle. She was only three years older than I was. That's all I'm saying.

Looks like Travers incontinence continues from both ends as usual. Put the old leftie out to some useful posting like putting the cotton in asprin bottles, what a Toronto loser, always has been a has been.

all the bs aside palin is right. those working with obama will be more than happy to kill off the people they think are wasting air and they will do it with medical care rules.

Poor Jim,

The longer Harper is in power and the Libs getting nowhere and now down south the Oreo communist is falling like a lead balloon, the worse old Travers liver gets.

Hope your not too old to get treatment when you literally start turning yellow, crater nose.

"Not waiting for the cirrhoris"

Ignorance is winning the debate, as so often happens, and a reality Republicans count on. Palin specifically and conservatives in general seem to possess a never ending supply of the stuff, a veritable cornucopia of nescience.

Life sucks for you doesn't it pillboy? Off your meds again? Must suck to be living in your mom's basement!

Commisar philboy seems to be ignorant of the fact that we're onto his tactics.

http://nukegingrich.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/take-2-obama-star.gif

Another one;)http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ONylrfDR86Q/Rdyo58N-7zI/AAAAAAAAAAM/DOjQxxPWtzk/s400/take-2-unhinged-pelosi75%25.gif

Joe C...so you are a linear thinker after all. Sounds like your teacher was into extra curricular activities. It was not meant to be an insult - the linear thinker bit - both my spouse and his father are linear thinkers - comes in handy when your an engineer.

" a veritable cornucopia of nescience." - Philboy

Then verify it for us. Give us some evidence of this ignorance, and defend your position against all comers!

Yeah, Pelosi made mention of the documented fact that protestors carried swastikas at the town halls.

So what?