Im quite certain "whatever needs to be done" will be the control of the price and supply of energy.

Short answer, yes, they hear themselves. Unfortunately, they only hear themselves.

Like a lot of the actions of government, talk a lot, sound good and do nothing. I think this is a scam like global warming, they puff up their chests with pronouncements, the sheeple feel good that something is being done and everyone carries on their merry way. BS to BS, stalemate.

The world has been cooling over the last decade, and yet "The G8 countries have agreed to do whatever needs to be done to limit the world's temperature to a two-degree increase."

Wow. Now THAT'S a challenging target!

In a similar spirit of altruism and self-delusion, er ... make that self-sacrifice, I pledge to do what needs to be done to limit my intake of coffee to less than 20 cups a day.

Please send cash so that I can meet my target.

How did we miss the moment Harper crossed the floor?

Its all about creating a cap and trade carbon market,follow the money.

Harper disappoints me so much. How refreshing it would have been to have seen a principled rational voice there! If he wasn't willing to do that he could have at least mentioned the effects of that big burning ball of gas at least.

I remember Harper's comments about welfare, EI and the maritimes. As someone who lives here and is surrounded by people milking EI for all that it is worth (seriously, loved ones, friends, acquaintances, etc.), I cheered him on and expected great things from him as PM. Now we have Gail Shea here every second day delivering buckets upon buckets of money.

More of the world is our thermostat garbage from the G8. If they want to do everything they can, simply stop exporting any fossil fuels to China and India, then send in military forces to blocade ME oil.

Right? Wrong? Total posturing BS. When will a "journalist" ask the Pembina Institute et al how much will the earth's temperature (fever?) will go down if we comply fully with Kyoto.

They haven't got a clue. They can't even demonstrate that climate is warming for crying out loud.

Feel good garbage like this won't remove a single CO2 molecule, or real pollution for that matter, from the atmosphere.

Mr Harper, don't let these self-interested technocrats play their games with other people's money. Wink and nudge all you have to, but don't fall for the chicken little junk science.

Harper should spend a little more time in his riding, the one right next to mine. Unless the weather is way better west of McLeod Trail, which I doubt, he would have noticed that this winter, spring and now summer has been cold. Yeah, I know, "warming means it'll be colder". :eye roll:

There ought to be a law preventing politicians from making such long-range plans; by the time they're proven to be inefficient, ineffective and bloody expensive, those responsible are long out of politics and completely unaccountable.

My gut reaction to this story was to wonder who finally found Gaia's thermostat.

Then I noticed that they agreed to limit temperature increases to 2 degrees over "pre-industrial" levels.

Two points spring to mind:

(a) it's getting colder, so that's gonna be, you know, pretty easy; and

(b) it'd be even easier if instead of picking 1850 as a "pre-industrial" starting temperature, we picked 4.3 billion years ago, when the Earth was a ball of boiling iron and silicon. It's gonna take us a while to get to 1500 degrees celsius, even with my Jeep idling in the driveway.

I, also, personally commit to doing whatever it take to limit temperature increases to not more than 2 deg (C of F - no prob).

In other words, I will do SFA (or maybe a bit less)

Well, I'm hoping for some global warming as I have had my coat on every single day in this July so far.

We have actually come to a point in our western civilization that politicians can make a declaration that's premised on the notion that have the ability to control the temperature of the planet

...and it's reported across the world media with a straight face.

What's wrong with these people? That's not rhetorical. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE???

And by what miracle of modern technology will these brain-dead zombies of the granola-munching, dread-locked vocal minority drop world temperatures?

I know, a really big tin-foil tent around the world that will momentarily divert sunlight away! And here I thought the ISS was for research, it's actually the tin-foil deployment platform.

Grrr! Stupid politicians. The fact that Harper was involved with this "non-binding" agreement makes me want to slap him upside the head and yell, "Smarten up you idiot!".

What a bunch of morons! Maybe we should limit their brain cell count to 2! No worries - we're there already. Pathetic.

Precisely, Kate. The delusion of grandeur underpinning the G8 declaration is staggering.

Most of you are missing the point. What was on the G8 agenda was reduction in CO2 emissions of 80% by 2050. That was thrown out. The 2 degree target has long been the subject of agreement by the G8. So, the Italian meeting represents "no progress" from the perspective of the AGW fanatics.

You're missing an even larger point. The two degree target requires no reductions of CO2 at all if world average temperatures refuse to rise as IPCC theory projects. The G8 rejection of the 80% means that there is essentially no chance of agreement at Copenhagen on new CO2 emission reductions quotas for a Kyoto Part 2.

"A Russian official even questioned the target just hours after President Dmitry Medvedev agreed to the number. “For us, the 80-per-cent figure is unacceptable and likely unattainable,” Arkady Dvorkovich, Mr. Medvedev's top economic aide, told reporters.

“We won't sacrifice economic growth for the sake of emission reduction,” he added."

Hey Prime Minister Steve, go ask Arkady Dvorkovich about his balls.
While you're there, maybe you can ask him if buffing a mirror like finish on a fu#@ing tax to be paid to socialist douche-bags tricked out as green science helped much in his election.

This is messaging, pure and simple spin, it is like listing the Polar Bear. A symbol to justify future action. This is NOT a good thing. They did not say that AGW was wrong, so remember that.

The leaders realized they cannot sell GHG reductions to the populace anymore but by making a new messaging statement they can justify any action based on this agreement. It is far nore dangerous than climate change because it is much easier to justify because it quantifies the threat.

GHGs = Increase in Temperature
Increase in Temperature GHGs must be reduced.

IT IS the same mesage and just as stupid.

What's wrong with these people ??

My take: The two degree "fix" is the big 'out' for the politicians, eco-fanatics and especially for the hoax swallowing journalists.

Two degrees is a much easier goal to fudge than emission limits.

1) It is not possible to accurately measure the Earths average temperature so they can tell us anything.

2) They now realize (thx Watts et al) that the Earth is cooling rendering their goal redundant.

3) The two degree goal is easy to achieve - just move the weather station thermometers away from the BBQs as Hansen's own handbook stipulates.

The ecofanatics and the Media will go along with this 'out' as they see a horrendous pile of fraud litigation about to land on their desks.

Am I wrong ??

Shouldn't be a problem since the temp is going down

As usual, CGH is completely correct. Look, there is nothing wrong with those people, Kate, they are doing, and doing well, what they are hired and paid for: they are professional liars. Nobody wants leaders to tell the truth, people can't handle the truth (and in democracies, people won't vote for the truth). That's why we are always lead by professional liars. Of course, the good news is that, as usual, our liar leaders have agreed to nothing, so there's really nothing to report, and no reason to blog about it. The real question, then, is: why do so many people not understand this? What's wrong with you people? That's not a rhetorical question.

"Unless the weather is way better west of McLeod Trail..." Kathryn 11:17 am

Nope, same weather over here, maybe a bit more wind as we are a new subdivision. Most likely due to Harper Hot Air on doing sumpthin' fer GHG reduction.

It seems the height of megalomania to assume government to be so omnipotent that it can actually legislate a change in the weather, but this is the era we live in.

Government worshipping lemmings who seek security from nature's cycles through self destructive over regulation, and megalomanic legislators more than willing to assume pseudo deity. What a combination for cultural collapse.

oh no! Its not working yet! It was 55 F this morning, and now it is up to 73 F!

That is 18 F degrees differences, way above the 2 degrees that they agreed upon!!!! whatdowedo? whatdowedo???

IMO it's just Kyoto Redux. IOW, political theatre. All promise to reduce but in fact have no intention of doing so. To walk away from Italy without some sort of eco-deal would be politically folly.

In the meantime, should one or two actors actually move towards reductions, it would make everyone else more attractive for investment and new jobs.

A classic delaying action strategy when you're in full retreat.

"What's wrong with these people? That's not rhetorical. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE???"

This is why I come here. It's comforting to see someone else exhibit this much incredulity with respect to current events.

"Do these people even hear themselves anymore???"

Well they certainly don't hear "us", do they? They also don't hear the hundreds of scientists disavowing this theory. And it is a theory, politicians. WAKE THE HELL UP.

"Government worshipping lemmings who seek security from nature's cycles through self destructive over regulation, and megalomanic legislators more than willing to assume pseudo deity" is the it always has been and always will be, V.B. (although sometimes it's religion, not government). Going from there to the same place cannot be considered to be a collapse.

cgh - many thanks for your rational and lucid response. As vitruvius points out, cgh is exactly right.

The key point is that the leaders, as Vitruvius pointed out, agreed to nothing. They threw out, (correctly), the reduction of CO2 by half by 2050, and any other such massive reductions (Russia); that would be ruinous to the economy. And their careers. China and India won't sign on, so the Copenhagen agreement is dead before it hits the table.

And 2 degrees is nothing; difficult to measure, open to debate and, the climate is cooling.

These leaders are all in a difficult political position. They have a brainwashed electorate, the majority of whom are steeped in Al Gore's, Suzuki's, and IPCC nonsense - taught in the schools, endlessly repeated in, for example, Canadian MSM.

Therefore, to reject the notion of 'global warming' (which has been backroom rejected anyway by the switch in terms to 'climate change')..would lose a lot of adoring electors. So, they have given the electors what the electors want: words rather than actions.

After all, if they instead chose a reduction in CO2 to pre-industrial levels (that 80%), which would mean a reversal of the economy to preindustrialism..that would not be much appreciated by this same electorate.

Kevin S said "Shouldn't be a problem since the temp is going down"

That will make the target very easy to meet. Then when the next election comes around Harper can claim to have met with World Leaders and devised goal. Then met the goal. Compare that to the Liberal record on the Kyoto Accord the Conservatives have the moral high ground in any debate on Climate Change.

Of course that will only matter if the MSM points this out to the electorate.

they also hear a environmental lobby, a renewable energy lobby, and a eco-guilt lobby that has a lot of momentum right now. Yep they hear them loud and clear.

Did these people just make a laughing stock of themselves?

' Meet the man who has exposed the great climate change con trick:

James Delingpole talks to Professor Ian Plimer, the Australian geologist, whose new book shows that ‘anthropogenic global warming’ is a dangerous, ruinously expensive fiction, a ‘first-world luxury’ with no basis in scientific fact. Shame on the publishers who rejected the book

Prof. What makes you sure that you’re right and all those scientists out there saying the opposite are wrong? ‘I’m a geologist. We geologists have always recognised that climate changes over time. Where we differ from a lot of people pushing AGW is in our understanding of scale. They’re only interested in the last 150 years. Our time frame is 4,567 million years. So what they’re doing is the equivalent of trying to extrapolate the plot of Casablanca from one tiny bit of the love scene. And you can’t. It doesn’t work.’

What Heaven And Earth sets out to do is restore a sense of scientific perspective to a debate which has been hijacked by ‘politicians, environmental activists and opportunists’. It points out, for example, that polar ice has been present on earth for less than 20 per cent of geological time; that extinctions of life are normal; that climate changes are cyclical and random; that the CO2 in the atmosphere — to which human activity contributes the tiniest fraction — is only 0.001 per cent of the total CO2 held in the oceans, surface rocks, air, soils and life; that CO2 is not a pollutant but a plant food; that the earth’s warmer periods — such as when the Romans grew grapes and citrus trees as far north as Hadrian’s Wall — were times of wealth and plenty.

All this is scientific fact — which is more than you can say for any of the computer models turning out doomsday scenarios about inexorably rising temperatures, sinking islands and collapsing ice shelves. Plimer doesn’t trust them because they seem to have little if any basis in observed reality '

http://tinyurl.com/leu7n2

Ian Plimer's Heaven and Earth: Global Warming, the Missing Science, a must read for debunking the AGW con.

http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Earth-Warming-Missing-Science/dp/1589794729

I agree with CGH, Vit and especially ET.

I'm of the view that AGW is a hoax, and I also agree with PMSH with respect to this for reasons I've stated before. We are long past a transfer of wealth to the third world, our politicians are much too greedy to give their "hard earned" tax dollars away. The real issue is the fluidity of trade between Canada and the U.S.; that's what PMSH is protecting.

From Bill Bragg's link

[Imagine how wonderful the world would be if man-made global warming were just a figment of Al Gore’s imagination. No more ugly wind farms to darken our sunlit uplands. No more whopping electricity bills, artificially inflated by EU-imposed carbon taxes. No longer any need to treat each warm, sunny day as though it were some terrible harbinger of ecological doom. And definitely no need for the $7.4 trillion cap and trade (carbon-trading) bill — the largest tax in American history — which President Obama and his cohorts are so assiduously trying to impose on the US economy.] Ian Plimer

Sometimes the irony of life is overwhelming. In another thread today, I referred to King Canute. For those who don't know the true legend, Canute, tired of his courtiers telling him he was a god, waded out into the ocean and commanded the tide to turn. When it wouldn't, he used that to demonstrate there was a limit to his powers.

Now, we have a group of modern-age Canutes. In true Bizarro fashion, instead of commanding the tide to turn, today when it is rushing out, they command it not to come rushing in! And when it doesn't come in, they're going to turn to us and say "See, what a great job we've done!".

Now, I need to take an Aspirin and lie down for a while...

So this is brilliant. A 2 degree increase cap by 2050.

Well that's a no-brainer. Given the trend line that started in late 2000's and the absolute temperature drop in the last 9 years, given the projection by the non-rent seeker scientists that says the current cooling period will continue for 30+ years, we can have all the energy burning and carbon production we want ans not break that 2 degree cap.

Gotta love the Law of Unintended Consequences.

Gosh! Golly!

Next they're jolly well going to do whatever needs to be done to bring about world peace, feed all the poor Africans and find a cure for the common cold!

Gee Willikers!

"Do these people even hear themselves anymore???"

I'm sure they hear themselves. The question is whether they listen to themselves...

As commented above, meeting the 2 deg C limit
shouldn't be a problem with the currently falling
temperatures. If the temperatures actually clearly
rose unambiguously by 2 deg C we even might be
concerned, although what if anything we could do
is not clear.

Defining and measuring the mean temperature of the Earth is an interesting topic.
Determining the start of the Industrial Revolution is even
more so (see the article on Coalbrookdale in
Wikipedia as a beginning). Wrangling about the
mean temperature of the Earth at the beginning
of the Industrial Revolution should keep
chatterers chattering for many a decade.

Vitruvius: "What's wrong with you people?"

I dunno ... maybe it's my believe that "cow farts" influencing global climate started out as a joke.

I have to agree with those that see this announcement as a cleverly-worded agreement to do nothing, and to take credit for having done something in order to solve a problem which doesn't exist.

They are slaying the Snark, more or less.

The politicos are going through the motions. Not one of them believes a word of it.

Harper has gone along with it because it's easier than being attacked every day by lunatic wankers. He's announced the same funging (which will NEVER arrive) about 15 times and will announce it every day until pigs fly before it actually happens.

Chretien was the same.

Ron in Kelowna, I pray that you are right. Lawsuits must be launched in Canada and the United States with with Gore, Suzuki and Chairman Mo called as witnesses. There, they can be grilled by capable lawyers to explain, despite the abundance of data to the contrary, they continue to prostelatyze the AGW message. Since they refuse to debate the issue, this is our best chance. Of course, here in Canada, the courts are stacked with good, Lieberal appointed hacks so they would never force their boss, Chairman Mo to have to testify.

Kate,

Of course it is reported that way and even stated that way. We must self flagelate for any success we have had, hairshirts to be worn by all, except thise who can afford to be otherwise.

It is ridiculous but hardly unprecendented. Humanity does this all of the time. We were small tribes of 10's of thousands of years suject to being scared by certain events. We have been "rational" for only a few thousand years (debateable to say the least. Which trait do you think has a stronger pull on us.

Sure we have dressed it up as rational and scientific. But promises that can't be kept won't be kept. So I wouldnt be too concerned one way or another. Eventually we coe to our senses, if only because some event or the results of our own folly slap us upside the head.

Yup, another couple of years of falling temps and this should be about wrapped up.

Long game.

Actually this declaration is clever....
Basically a plan to do nothing as the climate is, at this point apparently well into a 30 year cooling.....
Reality is that by the time the 30 year cooling Gore, Hansen and Suzuki will be long dead....and the current world leaders as well--including BamBam.....long since replaced by more pragmatic types.......
that sorta thing goes in cycles as well.........

"[A]nd the current world leaders as well--including BamBam.....long since replaced by more pragmatic types......."

I think you should have stopped at "replaced". Everything up to that point was true.

The Babe is announced by Gaia's NOAA-Gov on earth.

NOAA* knows what yer talking 'bout here. NOAA understands, too.

NOAA* built Noah's Ark for MaoStlong, (Hi. I'm ... Uncle Mo Strong from Canada.) who stole/re-christened Noah's biblical Ark the Gaia Ark.

Mo Stlong waved a wafer and It Was Blessed by ARkBishop Hansen and the MSM Choir sang in chant: Gaia is Our Saverus.
...-

"NOAA understands and predicts changes in the Earth’s environment, from the depths of the ocean to the surface of the sun, and conserves and manages our coastal and marine resources. Visit http://www.noaa.gov."

*"NOAA announces the arrival of El Niño"
urlm.in/csei (WUWT?)

How do we go about seceeding from this stupidity?

ET, Ron and Vitruvius: You've all noted like me that the 2 degree benchmark is the 'big out'. This allows endless waffling on the part of anyone trying to set or avoid setting CO2 emission restrictions. Some simple illustrations:

First question: 2 degrees from what benchmark year? If it's 1998, no one ever has to do anything. Oh, not a benchmark year but some average? Heh, over what time period, noting the inevitable fallacy over selecting endpoints? Remember that 1990 was set as the benchmark year for Kyoto, and its selection was not accidental. It was highly advantageous to the East Bloc and European nations. We and the US were simply stupid enough to go along with it (thank you Al Gore and Jean Chretien); hence Kyoto worked heavily to our comparative disadvantage. Rule of thumb for amateur trade (Kyoto) negotiators: never have Envt Canada do anything more than count ducks; and never play in the other guy's back yard.

Second question: How are we measuring the 2 degrees? Surface station averages? Heh, which ones? By selecting the right ones I can make the world's temperature, oh, 5 degrees warmer or 5 cooler by simple selection processes (data dredging). Satellite or balloons? Again, which ones and by which sensor methods? Infrared or microwave? Both? My, my, what's the weighting?

I could go on almost endlessly, but I think the point is obvious. 2 degrees becomes almost impossible to regulate, because as we've seen from Climate Audit and Watts Up, measuring the earth's temperature is essentially impossible to do definitively. Hence the criteria will be selected politically. As the shenanigans over Mann and The Team have shown, through statistical trickery you can make white look the same as black.

So, we're back to where we were before 1997. Global warming is simply international trade war by another name, with the desired (by Maurice Strong) side effect of shoveling money to the Third World. In closing, I think at least some of the G8 have been rather clever here. They've dumped the issue off into an area that will take years, maybe decades, to sort out the protocol standards. It's a perfect illustration of the fable of the thief teaching the camel to sing.

Ah So, we have gone from Global Warming to Climate Change to Limiting Temperature ?

And all this for a couple of *&%#$$#$ frigin lizards ?
,

That's fine that none of them really believe their own BS and have found a way to muddy the waters so their premise can't be tested. I still have not seen anywhere that they are not going to use it as an excuse to install some form of tax regime on carbon and energy in order to 'save the planet'. Still no time to let our guard down or the pressure off.

Whatever they do, or don't do, they will be able to claim success. Really, it is a brilliant move on their part. They will be able to claim all sorts of victories based on unverifiable claims.

What if it goes 2 degrees under? PMSH should have insisted on a subclaus allowing for increased pumping of carbon.

I should think Harper would have rolled his eyes when he saw this and said " yeah, whatever- it'll never come to anything , where do I sign?" It's just playing for time - time for all this warming stuff to be debunked. We'll just keep on doing what we did for Kyoto - nothing.

A light frost was seen yesterday morning in Airdire Alberta.
This is the coldest July I've seen in my entire life.
I'll be 50 years old in August and I saw the frost return last year and the year before on the night of August 10th.

Only in politics do people cheer for "leaders" who manage to lie with skill.

Maybe we should build a big ziggurat, and throw virgins off it periodically. I mean, it might not hurt

It sounds like they are refinancing a mortgage. Idiots.

cgh - I can't find this fable of the thief teaching the camel to sing. Help!

"A light frost was seen yesterday morning in Airdire Alberta.
This is the coldest July I've seen in my entire life."

I'm with you. Here in the Ottawa Valley, my pool was up to 26° C in June but now it's at 17° C.

Global warming? Bring it on!

I say the biggest victims of the Hoax are the students. The Public School System abused the innocent, vulnerable children. Gore's fictional horror movie shown over and over again was a heinous act. Instilling unnecessary fear into a child's mind is a crime - worthy of jail time, big time, IMO.

"What's wrong with these people?"

I don't think there's anything wrong with them at all. They are all perfectly normal products of the post 1980 Canadian education system. They think they are doing good. Unfortunately, they are wrong.

[engage rant mode]

I think they are minions of the enemy. I think everything they say or do is bent toward the destruction of Western civilization.

That's why I don't pay money for anything they say or do, and why the rest of you shouldn't either.

They need to be defeated in every theater available, from the stock market to the arena of ideas to parliament to the f-ing streets if that's what it takes.

Confusion to the Enemy.

/.rantmode.

I could go on almost endlessly ...
Posted by: cgh at July 9, 2009 1:25 PM

Yes, I think you could. Unless I miss your drift, you (and Vitruvius) seem to be intimaing that there's nothing to be concerned about here, as these are just talk-fests by posing pols doing nothing but emmitting warm air while trolling for votes from stupid people. Pols doing nothing, but pretending to -- something all serious libertarians pine for.

BUT, this nonsense in being expressed in real hard facts on the ground; witness the destructive cap and trade programme just passed in the US Congress. And during this recession cum depression, resources are being mis-allocated on a grand scale.

Sure, they're faking Co2 reduction and overseeing the global thermostat (the pitch), but they're deadly serious about an unprecendented level of government expansion and control over our lives. Is is an exaggeration to say we are in the throes of a world-wide Marxist revolution?

So, in conclusion I'm on-side with Kate's large-font cri de coeur about whether or not they hear themselves!

The world is indeed run by crazy and destructive people whether or not they believe the Co2-global thermostat bullshit.

Maggie, there are many versions of this story, but the simplest one is this:

A thief was caught by the Sultan and sentenced to be executed. He pleaded with the Sultan, "I know a secret, and if you spare me for a year, I will teach your camel to sing."

The Sultan, intrigued, had him hauled off to the stable, and there the thief could be found, day after day, singing to the Sultan's camel and encouraging it to sing along with him. A guard one day said to him, "Surely this is futile, that camel's never going to sing."

To which the thief replied, "Ah my friend, you don't understand. A year is a very long time and many things may happen. During the year, the Sultan may die, and I will be free. Or I might die anyway, and I will be free. Or, who knows? Perhaps the camel might sing."

The moral of the story here is that to a politician, or indeed just about anyone, the gift of time is of extraordinary value, and the G8 agreement this week is just that, buying time and waiting for camels to sing (other events to take climate change off the table or the problem to correct itself), the Sultan to die (the Greens losing their hold over the agenda), or the death of the thief (the end of my term in office and hence someone else's problem).

"The G8 countries have agreed to implement cap-and-trade to limit the world's temperature to a two-degree increase."

There, fixed it for them.

From the original Kung Fu series:

"Grasshopper, you heard but you did not listen." Seems an apt description of today's politicians.

And about Statistics: the original Star headline: Nearly 3/4 of Canadians....69%...well it should have read "just over 2/3 of Canadians since 69 is only 3 points of '66'.

Note to self: Never buy a Toronto Star.

Well put, molarmauler.
Harper's incandescent light bulb ban, legislated in 2005, kicks in in 2010.
It must be a coincidence.

With the seemingly cooling trend happening...... Obama will use it and this stupid policy thingy and claim to have cured us of global warming!!

Then he can move to other things, like pollution, Islam nutcases and national debt. You know, real problems.

Of course the world is run by crazy people. There's no way a sane person would try to run the world, the very idea is insane. And yes, Me No Dhimmi, it is an exaggeration to say we are in the throes of a world-wide marxist revolution, just as it is an exaggeration to say we are in the throes of the decline of western civilization. Actually, it's much worse than just an exaggeration, it's a pathological psychosis. Still, Kate doesn't like us to engage in extended debates here, so best I just leave it at that. Y'all have a great day now, y'hear.

MND, the Greens have always been interesting in dictating every aspect of our lives. Nothing I wrote contradicts that. What is the case, however, is that the G8 is backing away from dictating any immediate action on a consensus basis. Countries will still do it on an individual basis, depending upon how strong their watermelon lobby is.

Second, the cap and trade bill in the US has nothing to do with climate change. It's all about restoring comparative advantage for US unionized industry by imposing handicaps on everything else, particularly foreign (including Canadian) competition. It was also about providing revenue to cover off the huge deficit the US economic recovery act created, but that failed when Waxman had to give away all the carbon credits to get enough support to pass the bill.

So, W-M has nothing to do with CC, it's only about domestic protection, the modern version of Smoot-Hawley. Even Lisa Jackson admitted this week that the US restrictions on CO2 will have no detectible effect.

What is in the water in Ottawa, and why is PM Harper drinking it?

Remember G8 is not a climate conference. None of the leaders want to be associated with ecofascist limits to growth.

They will let it come from Copenhagen in December.

This is not a victory - beware Copy!!!

Next up ... new and even better IPCC models predict that increases in human CO2 production are triggering negative feedbacks which will plunge the world into "runaway cooling".

G8 promises to not allow temperatures to go down 2 degrees.

Limit to a two degree increase?

So in other words, business as usual?

cgh - excellent, really excellent posts. Many thanks.

Yes indeed, this 'climate change' nonsense is primarily a sophist term for a trade war, trying to get economic resources (for free, not even as a loan) to the 'third world' and putting economic limits on the industrial nations.

And your analysis of cap-and-trade is also excellent. At some time, however, the unions, which have nothing to do with workers but are enormous corporations in themselves, parasitic corporations, will have to be confronted.

Cjunk, Harper is trying to help Canada survive:

a) the worldwide recession by kow-towing to Obama because 80% of Canadian exports go to the U.S.
b) Obama's remaining 3 1/2 years as POTUS

The year 2010 is going to be a good year for blogging and a bad year for making a living.

I have it on excellent authority (my imaginary Liberal friend whom I consult weekly) that MI will be announcing climate change policy that goes even further than the G-8 announcement.

Upon election of a Liberal government, MI will table legislation to combat climate change and overcome regional disparities in average temperature throughout Canada.

Highlights include a law limiting the range of temperature variation across the country. For instance if it is 8 degrees C in Victoria on December 10th the temperature in Yellowknife will not be allowed to drop below 4 degrees C.

In this manner Canadians from coast to coast to coast will combat climate change by requiring less energy and regional meteorological differences will be eliminated thereby leveling the playing field for all citizens.

Syncro

Harper, in his statement, alluded to the fact that Obama lead the group in negotiating a general consensus; to which Mr. Harper agreed. He agreed to the impact that climate change is having. What do all of you right wingers think now; he may even be leaning to cap and trade or a carbon tax. Ontario, Quebec and Manitoba are all leaning in that direction.

More good news on the cap and tax front.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/07/09/breaking-senate-postpones-cap-and-trade/

I don't care if they hear themselves. The only thing I want them to hear anymore is a whistling noise followed by a thud as the mouton hits the stops.

Chris

The Liberals and their judges will be crying "bloody murder" once the hoax is accepted politically.

CGH

"Even Lisa Jackson admitted this week that the US restrictions on CO2 will have no detectible effect."

I beg to differ. The numbers I saw for Cap'nTrade were as follows for the average American Family: $2000+/yr increase in energy bills by 2012; $6000+/yr increase in energy bills by 2020.

That being said, I can't imagine the government would lowball these numbers./sarc

btw, good luck to Canadians, Europeans and Americans in getting the governments to refund or even kybosh the tax after the hoax is revealed.

The G8 targets are meaningless as many have pointed out. The consequences of Cap'nTrade are very real.

Agree with ET, really excellent posts cgh. I'm doubtful about the "trade war" angle, but certainly agree that it's global wealth re-distribution. Er, global communism. Ironically, the most poignant defense of free trade I've ever witnessed was delivered by none other than our mentally-ill moonbat Algore when he destroyed Ross Perot in that debate. He brought up Smoot-Hawley as a key factor.

And you too Vitruvius - loved your libertarian rant.

Now, Vitruvius, KevinB is, according to your lights on another thread, a fear-mongerer, and now I'm pathological then, am I, for suggesting we are in the throes of a world-wide Marxist revolution? You don't think the EU is a crypto-communist operation? The UN? BTW, I didn't actually say we were in the "throes of the decline of western civilization" but now that you bring this up, are you suggesting, like some of those happy-face investment advisors, that "this time it's different". I mean, the Roman Empire collapsed didn't it? Are you suggesting that the elites actually learn from history? If so, you'd have to explain the resurgence of destructive Keynesian economics after its thorough de-bunking in the 70s.

And I'm good with substituting Fascist for Marxist in that bumptious phrase I used.

Kate, you should start a pool for the first time any mainstream media news broadcast mentions the "possibility" that global warming may have "reversed" and that "leading scientists" have "discovered" that we are not in that much trouble after all.

I am guessing tomorrow. Behind the scenes, I am pretty sure quite a few of the "leading minds" in the climate field are taking enough flak from their "not so leading" colleagues that they are ready to put the necessary face-saving spin on all this, and talk the jumper off the ledge, so to speak.

It's too bad it had to take even this long, but some of the weather patterns this spring and summer are basically making such a shambles of the AGW theory that even within the professional ranks there are many signs of extreme discontent. I think it will soon be a case of "who wants to be the last man on the Titanic with Al Gore?" and that would not be an attractive way to spend one's twilight years.

The hubris is fantastical. Yup, politicians have now taken on divine duties. They can't tewll us the weather from day to day but by gum they will control the climate by there politician powers.
JMO

T

Get out much?

Did you hear the news about Neil Armstrong?

What about JFK?

When I was a kid and wanted to stay home from school, I'd take the thermometer my mother put in my mouth and hold it against the lighted bulb that was in my bedside table lamp. Just a second or two was enough to get it into fever territory. When I was sick and wanted to attend a birthday party, the chilled glass of gingerale that my loving mother had given me produced the opposite, but desired, effect.

Unlike my mother, I think the G8 leaders are wise to my tricks and will be using them at every opportunity, whether or not the sun cooperates.

Nope, Me No Dhimmi, the Roman empire did not collapse, it just hit a bump in the road. In fact, the whole world is living in the Roman empire, and in a number of other western empires, such as Greek, British, and American, right now. Indeed, the global trade war was invented by western civizilation, and now, western civilization is flourishing all over the global trade war. By the way, I apologized here to KevinB for that somewhat over the top comment of mine that you refered to, just about two hours before you referred to it. Ahh, serendipity ;-)

It really is like the lunatics are running the asylum.

"13,600 people have died as result of the cold so far this year in Peru. Raychel Harvey-jones reports"

http://tinyurl.com/mw95ys

and
"140 Children have died in Peru as the cold weather and lack of Medical aid affects the region.
Raychel Harvey-Jones Reports"

Otherwise, words escape me.

I'm with you. Here in the Ottawa Valley, my pool was up to 26° C in June but now it's at 17° C.

Posted by: JJM at July 9, 2009 1:41 PM
-------------------------------------------------

Translation: 78 degrees in June but now it's at 62 Degrees.

LOL JJM. How do you know you have been hanging around a canadian blog to long ? When you can do the temperature conversions in your head.
,

And in a repeat of last night, frost warnings issued again for central Nfld.

Improvements in communication will kill democracy.

In the past, politicians had no way to determine the opinions of their constituents. When a decision was required, they resorted to common sense.

Now, they must pretend to do what the public thinks best.

These guys cannot even fine tune their bowel movements to avoid missing a group photo.Fine tune to 2050 they cannot fine tune---fill in the blank any blank or try a plank.

T: "He agreed to the impact that climate change is having. What do all of you right wingers think now;"

He's no dummy. Can you imagine the bullshit that would be slung at him if he said otherwise? Remember, the world can't tolerate truth. Nice platitudes are expected, and the norm, you know: "yes we can", "hope n change" .....ad nausium.

I was gasterflabbed when I heard PM Harper sounding off about the undeniable affects climate change was having on the world. What's to do when the best PM Canada has ever had swallows the hook? I agree the liberals would be total devastation on the economy, but I do not accept incremental climate change fighting like the Conservatives are doing, as it's all a scam, do we still support the Conservatives, and how to wake them up?

Warm the planet oh mighty ones and do it now!

Lubos presents a good analysis here:
http://motls.blogspot.com/2009/07/g8-err-g7-ban-ice-ages-and-order-global.html

wuberman wrote...I was gasterflabbed when I heard PM Harper sounding off about the undeniable affects climate change was having on the world.

Me too. Every nerve I have left is telling me that he is going to impose a carbon tax. I would expect that from libs but not from a guy whose riding is in Calgary. Get ready for a knife in the back.

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am. The world IS being run by crazy people.

do we still support the Conservatives, and how to wake them up?

If there is a wake up call, it would be economic suicide to spank them while Obama is still in office.

I'm hoping Harper is smiling and nodding while talking a good game and planning to do nothing on the Global Warming portfolio just like the Liberals did before him when they signed and ratified Kyoto and then...crickets chirping.

I have a sick feeling in my stomach.

The developing countries are not happy with this agreement.......unless they can be assured that they can get the funds to see this plan through.So,not only do they want us to pay to clean up our backyard,they ain't even gonna try to clean up theirs,unless we pay them. Then we sit back and hope they do,and if they don't,tough titty said the kitty,you got screwed,you should have known better.The whole global warming scheme is a scam starting with their poster child,the rapidly disappearing polar bear. Facts don't matter,follow the money.Someone should kidnap Al Gore,Suzuki,and a few of the UN elites,strap them down,jack them up with sodium pentathol,and turn on the camcorder. Ahh,I'm starting to get a tingle down my thigh.

It is all about power (control) and money, and this is just one more phase of softening up the masses. Why should they have to believe what they say, when no one questions their claims; be it the MSM or the masses?

ET

Months ago (pre-election) I commented that I felt betrayed by the Conservatives because of a comment S.Day made which I called a lie, and pointed to that lie as evidence that the Conservatives are on board with AGW hysteria. At the time I said that my experience has made me very effective at rooting out B.S. You then proceeded to ask for "proof" because you'll not accept my perceived talent(earned skill) for smelling B.S. as tangible evidence(paraphrasing). Since then my feelings of betrayal have changed, but my assessment that S.Day was/is B.Sing Canadians is still valid.

My point is, asking for "proof" isn't necessarily checkmate wrt a debate( even though I provided some). Bill O'Reilly seems to have the same trait of denying his nose despite his face. His so called “fair and balanced” mantra and his personal standard of not bloviating about anything without irrefutable proof has made him unable to accurately report on BO. So what, BO didn’t say he’s a socialist, that doesn’t mean he isn’t one, but O’Reilly thinks he’s on some type of moral high ground for not jumping to obvious conclusions, when in fact he looks silly. He’s mislead his viewers and is only now starting to report what I’m sure his gut was telling him all along. Outside of media in the real world this black and white view of evidence can cost people their lives. Not everything is as easily verified in life as it is in academia. This is probably why sales isn't taught in university or some other type of post secondary schools because the only tangible results are sales numbers. In other words there are no measurable, similar to a built-in lie detector.

I'm not trying to say "I told you so", but your dismissal of my POV made me remember to bring this up at the right time. I'm just saying that we shouldn't dismiss the 900lb gorilla in the room just because we can't prove he's 900lbs, or that he's really a gorilla. He's there, and we can just accept that.

It's official Harper is a Modern Liberal and as such he's embraced the Church of Climate Change. Harper has taken the Conservative Party so far left it's gobsmacking, first he forces Canadians to buy 30 billion in GM shares and now he's embraced Climate Change. I'd ask what's next but he'll most likely expand the CHRC mandate to include the Social Condition, for some reason I spit after I say the words Social Condition. Does that mean I'm inflicked with said Desease?

So they are going to pass laws to regulate the atmosphere? OH MY! How powerful these great leaders are! By the way, what is the temperature supposed to be? Answer-- The same as it was when these adult children were really children never varying even a little bit (for the first time in this planet's history).
Of course setting up a carbon trading system that will generate BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars of free money stolen from the productive to those who faciltate the trades (ALGORE..Paulson) has nothing to do with this.
Wake up and fight this people!!

Assuming that burning stuff really does contribute to global warming gases , it's time to get busy peeps ...... two degrees C is one hell of a pile of tires , or any thing else for that matter .

Exactly HANDSOMEINMN.

The goal is to return the temperature and climate to what it was in the "good' ol days".

Chill kids, be like our climate and just chill.

PM Harper is just being a public believer, which public figures must do these days or else face the wrath of the unhinged looney leftie global warming hysterics.

He's going along to get along . . . . and biding hos time because he knows the temperature are dropping. Time is on ob his side, just like with the economy.

That would include Stephen Harper, wouldn't it?

it is starting . . . a big Obamassiah supporter turns on him like a starving dog in an unlocked meat store. All in the Huff Po no less.

"Hansen unhinged on G-8 failure – “Waxman-Markey bill, a monstrous absurdity”

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/07/09/hansen-unhinged-on-g-8-failure/

"He's going along to get along"

Where's he getting along to Fred? Do you think this giant tax schemes will be repealed once they see the folly of their ways?

make the 2degrees measured at the top of the Washington monument .

a symbolic phallic symbol to the world.

While they're at it, could they raise our winter temperatures 2 degrees and lower the summer by 2? A little chilly for me on the west coast come Feb.

"Where's he getting along to Fred? Do you think this giant tax schemes "

What giant taxes? Here in BC our policy wonk du jour Premier has passed a gasoline tax - I think it is up to 3.5 cents/litre now, but he dropped income taxes, but I think this is the only "giant tax scheme" in Canada. Has Harper passed any CO12 taxes ??

even Obama hasn't enacted any tax increases yet . . the Senate is next stop and it will be difficult, but that is an American problem.

O'progressives are regressive: The Dirty 30s redux?

Mao Stlong's AGW is a Red-Green Mask for the destruction of western civilization.

O is the designated hitman of the AGWPack.

GAO = "the Government Accountability Office, a research arm of [USA] Congress,"
...-

"U.S. climate laws risk trade war: study"

"The GAO warns, however, that protectionist action could provoke tit-for-tat countermeasures that would spiral into a wide-ranging trade war.

“Countries may view U.S. trade measures as trade restrictions or sanctions, which could lead them to implement restrictions against U.S. exports,” the report said."
urlm.in/csfu

Progress is being made.

When Kyoto hatched, the architects, Maurice Strong, Hansen, Gore, Suzuki, invisioned it to be the Mother Of All socialistic schemes.

Hamstring the Western Economies and give taxpayer money to the Third World - with the United Nations handling the money of course and taking a cut for Mo et al.

But the US Senate told Al Gore and Big Willy to take a hike - voted 100% against Kyoto.

Chretien signed but did nothing.

And now, heh heh, they will simply limit the temp rise to two degrees - somehow, someday, if indeed they have to.

If that is all Mo and Gang get, they will probably loose interest.

Hansen unhinged because the socialistic scheme is falling apart. He and MO are not interested in the climate part.

O'ChicagO that O'hustlin' tOwn.

Goreacle has passed the Golden Wafer-Heifer Footprint of AGW to O'ChicagO.
Here is O's Golden Heifer FOOtprint.

Moses, where are you?
...-

"Chicago – coolest July 8th in 118 years
9 07 2009

Another entry from the weather is not climate department, this time courtesy of Tom Skilling, WGN-TV meteorologist"

http://wattsupwiththat.com/

the simple fact is an increase in world avg temp translates into lower utility bills for me. I dont use air-con and wont at least until my present furnace needs replacing.

and I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge my std of living has as its foundation the exploitation of energy resources for hundreds of years before, so who am I to object when others burn it up like pergatory?

politicians making pronouncements like this reminds me of the 'great leap forward' under Mao when the only thing req'd was . . . a pronouncement from on high to cue the step-to crowd fawning over his every word.

the emperor has new clothes etc. targeting limiting of temperature increases means NOTHING without action. Im fed up with trying to improve conditions in this city/province/country/world so Im banking on the predicted eco-catastrophe to reach its full effect when Im in my mid 80s and then REALLY dont give a fcuk.

Saw this as a comment in the 'Hansen Unhinged' thread on WUWT.

ARTHUR: It’s true! It’s true! The crown has made it clear. The climate must be perfect all the year.

A law was made a distant moon ago here:
July and August cannot be too hot.
And there’s a legal limit to the snow here
In Camelot.
The winter is forbidden till December
And exits March the second on the dot.
By order, summer lingers through September
In Camelot.
Camelot! Camelot!
I know it sounds a bit bizarre,
But in Camelot, Camelot
That’s how conditions are.
The rain may never fall till after sundown.
By eight, the morning fog must disappear.
In short, there’s simply not
A more congenial spot
For happily-ever-aftering than here
In Camelot.

Camelot! Camelot!
I know it gives a person pause,
But in Camelot, Camelot
Those are the legal laws.
The snow may never slush upon the hillside.
By nine p.m. the moonlight must appear.
In short, there’s simply not
A more congenial spot
For happily-ever-aftering than here
In Camelot.

What was on the G8 agenda was reduction in CO2 emissions of 80% by 2050. That was thrown out.

The article says the 80% cut was agreed to, it's just that the base year was not determined. Whether 2006, or 1990, it's not at all comforting either way to realize that hysterical baseless anti-science alarmist propaganda has won over the "leadership" of the developed world.

The G8 leaders have finally discovered the "dark side" of the force....

The real question is what is their Sith lord names be.

Darth Gore?
Darth Delusional?

ET, your note on the unions is interesting. I would suggest to you that to a certain extent the problem is self correcting. Two reasons: 1. Because of the increasingly intrusive, anti-economic policies of the Greens, the wedge between the Greens and unionized labour is growing. You only have to listen to someone like the head of PWU, or local heads of things like painters and plasterers or the steamfitters locals to understand just how hostile some of them have become to Green politics. To a certain extent this is still masked by the politics of the large union alliances such as CFL, increasingly dominated by public sector unions, but it's there and its been growing for about 15 years. It also makes the ideological split in the NDP worse. It's obvious by now that they're not going to hold together much longer the coalition of unions and greens.

2. Every year that passes, the proportion of unionized labour in Canada (and the US) shrinks. It will continue to shrink for a host of economic structural reasons. Only in the public sector are they hanging on and growing.

MND @ 4:48: I can understand your scepticism over the trade war aspect. All I can say is that it's been a very quiet underlying theme at every COP going back to the mid 1990s. And there's no question that protectionism is a huge part of the Dem agenda in the US today. For anyone who listened carefully to O's remarks in his Ottawa visit, I found them some of the most alarming stuff any President has said about Canada in the past half century.

Heh, cgh, I'm with you on Dem protectionism. For sure. The auto bailouts and the destruction of the rule of law vis-a-vis the treatment of secured bond holders was ALL because of the UAW.

It's just that the whole global warming hoax is not trade-war related. It's really a combination of radical state expansionsim, radical global income re-distributionsim, and radical one-world government. Global fascism.

The euro-elites aren't satisfied with their Eurabia project; they really pine for one-world global governance. The best excuse for that is of course the need to "save the planet". And who can argue with that noble goal, eh?

I used to be puzzled with the political elites' wish to destroy national sovereignty. But I gradually realized that global governance would give successful pols a much bigger, way more thrilling playing field.

Finally, the more I think about it the less I accept the meme suggested here by some posters that the pols are just going through the motions in order to satisfy their stupid brainwashed voters (wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more). In fact, I don't think most folks really believe in the GW hoax. As Kate says, they just look out their windows. Most folks, of course, are not reflected by the CBC and US state-run media.

The real tragedy of the entire global warming/climate change debacle is that when the vast majority of average people come to their senses and politicians finally muster enough intestinal fortitude to dismiss this sad period in history as an enormous fraud, the Gores and Suzukis of the world will simply drop out of sight. Although they have enriched themselves beyond belief, they will slither under the rock from whence they came .... no retribution, no punishment, no public ridicule .... nothing!

It's a grandiose scheme and, years from now, these con artists will be living in luxury, knowing that they pulled it off without a hitch.

MND: more importantly, the "bigger, way more thrilling playing field" is an UNELECTED one. The UN SecGen never has to consult anything as pesky as voters, nor do any of the Eurocrats in Brussels.

What it really shows is that AGW as a practical policy issue plays out amid a host of competing interests, some of which you referred to. What the national interests (the politicians) are seeking is an advantage for themselves and their constituents. That means, the other guy's ox gets gored more than mine.

I disagree with you in the last sentence of your post. Most of them are terrified about what the opposition will do to them if they ever slack off on what everyone in politics believes is the established political power of AGW. So they all play the game. The secret is to determine who really believes the nonsense and those who don't.

i said it years ago. why the hell do you want a cooler planet. we will have to burn more fuel to stay warm. maybe we will have to burn politicans.

The G8 actually did something helpful, they put AGW back into the mix... and they put a results MARKER (>2C) on the climate. Those in Congress are voting on AGW, (not carbon or Air Quality) and they will pay the price when that theory fails. The 9 Republican Reps & Dem’s will need to explain themselves, re: AGW, in 2010 and beyond.

The debate is now AGW & who measures the 2C. That may take 100 years of academic argument, and we will be somewhat nearer a cooler planet....

Climate change is OUT….AGW is IN.. If carbon is not responsible for AGW the carbon exchange is DOA..

Far be it from me to throw a positive spin, but...

Did it occur to anyone that maybe Harper knows damn well that AGW is all BS, and that when he makes the on-camera statements he MUST make, he's fervently hoping that WE know that HE knows that it's all BS? Wink-wink-nudge-nudge?

I actually feel sorry for the guy, all the BS he has to spout, hoping to affect a beat-back of the insanity...

*Sigh*

These idiots are going to need to find a way to blot out the sun just enough to freeze our back sides off before we throw them into the Arctic and watch the ice quickly form over their heads.