$1 million / job saved. What a bargain!

PLUS, is that 2600 MORE dealers to be closed? How on earth will the baby G make up for that LOST revenue stream? Not to mention the lost distribution network?

Dumb, dumber & dumbest. Take your pick as to which order they need to go in.

Isn't 1.7 billion a tad steep for a Canadian made Camero?

When the government pulls the rug out from under everybody, there's bound to be some breakage. The question is, how will they get rug back under everything or are they simply going to throw it over the top & not worry about it?

While I am under no illusion our "investment" will enter the non-performing payment sector of Gov't. accounts,(its gone baby). My greatest concern is that this is only the beginning tranch with many more to follow! Why isn't there a drop dead on this?

Brian Deese is an excellent choice. It's old school thinking that created the auto industry mess. A bright person without preconceived notions will get much better results.

I'm gradually replacing the old curmudgeons in my business with young graduates. The results are awesome. When my competitors finally clue in our market share will be over the top.

GMC false and misleading financial statements back as far as the year 2000 and $277 million settlement and Deloitte & Touche $26 million settlement with investors denies them any say in their affairs. The USA has a justice problem with expected results.

"It's old school thinking that created the auto industry mess. "

Actually, not stirred, no its not. It was the desire borne out of a depression and a world war to never have to know despair and poverty again. I have deep historical roots in General Motors, going as far back as Sam McLaughlin (Buick to you). It was old school thinking that built GM, based on savvy business, fair dealing, hard work, and a willingness to share the profitability. Arguably, the sons of the founders squandered much of it away.

A lot of the current crisis is directly related to the speculative oil market of the last two years. Had Wall Street not been allowed to kite the value of oil beyond its base, this mess wouldn't exist.

While its fashionable to trash GM these days, the standard of living enjoyed in the US and Canada wouldn't exist today. GM, Ford and Chrysler literally built north america by enabling the economic engine it became. You have a business because of GM, not in spite on it.

Your comment about referring to your older staff as curmudgeons explains why you have performance problems. You give no respect, your business gets none.

Government tries to reinvent the auto industry?

FAIL!

D3 still making pickups Yeah!

I want a Camaro SS, maybe last chance for a mid-life crisis splurge........

"A bright person without preconceived notions"

I find it hard to see anything innovative about putting a huge bankrupt corporation on government welfare with no immediate hope of profitability. Or, for that matter, no idea when the life support will stop and the profits will begin. (BTW, i'm not asking for a date, just a vague indication of roughly when and how it will happen.)
Yes, I'm sure he's bright but he's simply applying the same tired lefty notions that have failed in the past. And the beard isn't helping.

All this talk about bailing out / re-structuring of GM fails to address one minor, pesky detail - slumping sales. GM's market share has gone from 54% in the mid 50s to ~20% today. Pumping cash, either private or taxpayer, into it doesn't address the problem and, given some of the commentary I've seen around the net, will only make it worse as people vow to never purchase GM again.

But perhaps not stirred enough is correct and an untrained wunderkind will have all the answers. And maybe pigs will fly.

stirred enough

"I'm gradually replacing the old curmudgeons in my business with young graduates. The results are awesome. When my competitors finally clue in our market share will be over the top."

Define "awesome". Saving on wages? More Productivity? Revenue Stability? Successful new ventures?

I have had these argument one thousand times over my career, especially while doing M&A due diligence. Without experienced guidance that is open to new ideas, restructuring with only young inexperienced Grads under the guise "of new vision or revitalization" is a recipe for disaster. I have seen several companies implode under the chaos because these new mid level recruits do not understand the core business, nor the business markets, customer service, trust or networking and are not content to operate in the margins until they do understand it. Apple is a great example and the Steve Jobs return. That was a younger hipper Apple, that sucked at the management level.

I have seen people let go as old curmudgeons and a year later are making better money than they did as consultants returning to fix the mess. The main sin, hyper-growth without sustainable margins and re-occurring revenue, constantly changing customer policy and gimmicky accounting.

Experience matters, I do not care what the industry is and is more important then innovation within an established entity, without a stable revenue stream from a well managed core you cannot innovate except with your main products and then you are just gambling like a startup.

Amen, Skip. GM has been my brand of choice for 30 years, working my way up the "food chain" of makes as my career advanced. Life without a Corvette or Cadillac is unimaginable. The quality of GM products, despite the shots taken by many on this site, brought my Dad over from another manufacturer about 20 years ago. He feels the same. We are both mourning. I dread losing the local Chevy/Cad dealer. Many a pleasant hour has been spent pestering their Sales Manager.
The domestic manufacturers provided living wages to their employees which allowed them to buy homes, cars, raise families and put their kids through college. Their prosperity raised the collective "boats" of many millions of Americans
over the decades.
The damage done to domestic manufacturers through thoughtless legislation has finally reached it's culmination. The king is dead...
Your staffing comments are right on the mark as well. My older employees are experienced and reliable. Their knowledge has enabled our department to develop new technology that automates large aspects of internal processes flawlessly. Downsizing to accompany automated systems was handled completely through attrition. How can an employee that gave 20 to 30 years of their life to an organization be discarded? That perspective is morally and ethically challenged.

Skip,

With all due respect you sound like an old bitter curmudgeon. My business thrives because of service excellence and giivng full value to my clients. My Toyota has 280,000 KM on it and is still on its original brakes and has never been in the shop for repairs, never!

My friends with GM products experience numerous problems starting as early as 6,000 KM. Over the top pension plans and a sense of entitlement are the undoing of the N.A. auto industry.

My Dad has a 2001 Yukon with 340,000 miles on it. It just went in for it's first major repair three weeks ago, fourth gear and reverse went belly up. Understand this truck is used for extensive off-road "buff" activity as well as several cross-country jaunts annually. My Mom's 1993 Jimmy has 260,000 miles on it. She's wrecked it once but other than that, it only goes to the shop for oil changes. My sister has their 1984 Blazer in up-state New York which they use to plow snow. It now has 320,000 miles on it. Driving GM doesn't provide the "smugness" element clearly valued by those following the pack, but it definitely gets the job done.

Why would an administration run by a guy for whom the presidency of the US is an entry level executive position see anything wrong with this scenario?

"""My Toyota has 280,000 KM on it and is still on its original brakes and has never been in the shop for repairs, never!"""

not stired

and that speaks only of your driving stile, nothing else

and the is merit in both old workers and new "flash in the pans"

as far as the NA auto industry, they operate much as our government does, very inefficiently
I used to have GM in Oshawa as a customer, and I have nothing good to say about them.

also I had my own business in the auto industry for over 12 years. My observation is that it would be prudent to fire 90% of the people working at dealerships, and never let them work in the industry again!!

GYM,

My driving style is pretty aggressive. I would dearly love to drive a N.A vehicle but don't want to punish myself.

Whe you spend $50,000 on an offshore product you get quality. When you spend the same amount on a N.A. product you get a liitle bit more cheap chrome and plastic woodgrain.

not stirred They have Ratner.

Kathryn wrote: All this talk about bailing out / re-structuring of GM fails to address one minor, pesky detail - slumping sales. GM's market share has gone from 54% in the mid 50s to ~20% today

Actually, this oft quoted statistic is a wonderful example of how to lie with statistics. In 1955, total auto sales were about 7 million for ALL manufacturers, and yes, GM had about 50% for sales of about 3.5 million units.

In 2008 with its "abysmal" market share of 20% or so, GM sold over 8 million units. What happened? The size of the market grew through competition and innovation, and while GM lost market share, it's total units sold grew substantially - a pretty common occurrence in many industries and markets.

GM has many problems, but sales per say are not one of them, although that may change now that GM stands for Government Motors.

CRC

crotch:

You claim that GM sold 8 million units in 2008 and that represents 20% of the total market share.

If 20% represents one-fifth of the entire market and you multiply 8 million x 5, that means a total of 40 million vehicles were sold in 2008.

I would suggest you re-check your facts.

"""My Toyota has 280,000 KM on it and is still on its original brakes and has never been in the shop for repairs, never!"""

That's almost impossible. The brakes: Unless you live in the middle of nowhere, with no street lights and a stop sign every 30 km's in which you mostly use your engine brakes (Down shift standard tranny). Unless you don't count pads and just say you haven't yet changed the rotors?; Maybe.
What about a batterie? Tires? I guess that would be considered normal wear.

[quote]How can an employee that gave 20 to 30 years of their life to an organization be discarded? That perspective is morally and ethically challenged.[/quote]Anna Mac

You are living in a 1950's time warp!

The technology free for all (1970-80's) in Silicon Valley ended any loyalty issues between an employee & the Corporation.

The engineer demand was such that when you where hired, you where instantly working for 15% less than the Market would bear. Everyone moved frequently expecting and getting a 15% increase in wages.. The Companies of today consider ALL employees a commodity...to increase or decrease at will...loyalty is a two way street.

Your statement "was" true for the long lost paternalist Company, but unions destroyed those concepts and competition has destroyed the paternalist Company.

The normal chapter 11 bankruptcies MUST dump pension “promises” (yes! only a promise that sucked the company dry)… This dumping is a repeated practice that “millions” have experienced in the last year.. A vivid contrast that will be reflected in the ballet boxes…

RH Terry Tory,

No it's not impossible. When I bought the vehicle new in 2002 I was told it would go a minimum of 140,000 on the original brakes. I thought the salesperson was full of s**t. As it turns out he wasn't! I admit to getting a bit of pulsation now and a brake job is imminent.

I'm on the 2nd battery and 3rd set of tires. Other than that nothing. Full synthetic oil every 24,000 KM.

I commute 200 KM roundtrip and another 100 KM visiting clients every day.

It's a 4Runner SR5 auto trans.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/apr/27/chrysler-gm-history

"General Motors was founded in 1908 by William "Billy" Durant, who had started out as a manufacturer of horse-drawn vehicles. GM initially only owned the Buick Motor Company but later acquired more than 20 other companies including Oldsmobile, Cadillac, Oakland – today known as Pontiac – Germany's Opel, Chevrolet and Vauxhall."

If government had bailed out the buggy industry back then there probably would have been no General Motors

Why on Earth Canada wants Opel?

If I had the money, and my choice of cars, I would have a Ford Flex for everyday of the week. I don't know what it is about that car, but I really like it.

As for quality, you can get a dog from any manufacturer. It is a function of numbers. A company that sells millions of car every year, if even a tenth of a percent are lemons, that is thousands of lemon cars and angry customers. It is a lesson that Toyota is learning the hard way, and that had a part in taking GM down. We got a Mazda 5 2 years ago, and it has not been the best example of fine workmanship. I have a 9 year old Chysler that is beginning to show its age.

And to that moron who claims he has not even had a brake job after hundreds of thousands of kilometers, I call BS. Get in for a brake job, your car is not safe.

All you "I never need new brakes" people, your cars are not safe. I repeat, your cars are not safe. Stop BSing.

Brake fluid breaks down over time.

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf40142.htm

You should have had the fluid in your brake lines flushed and replaced at least once by now.

Kevin,

Call your local Toyota dealer and ask them about the brakes on a 4Runner. Reserve your ad hominems until after you've done research.

I live about a ten minute walk from Sam McLaughlin's estate and where the original GM plant was. A few months ago a bought a new Chrysler Van, ( I basically got it for half what it would have cost me last year). Every other new car I have ever bought has been a GM. I will never buy a car from a government owned GM or Chrysler. I am sure an awful lot of other people feel the same way. That sure as hell isn't going to help them return to profitability. I live in a beautiful neighbourhood (many would say the only one in Oshawa!) dating from the 1920's. It was built with the wealth generated by the auto industry. Its sad to see it end.

As denoted in the book "The Death of Detroit" written a few years ago one of the primary differences between the top management of the D3 and the foreign cars makers ie Toyota is that they are accountants vs engineers. They built Detroit iron to maximize profits whereas Toyota etc. built cars that people wanted and focused on the customer whereas D3 focused on their unions.

The declining sales will kill any chance of a recovery of D3, remember they have 3.3 million unsold vehicles in their inventory to get rid of first. Vehicle sales for the whole auto industry are down 35% from last year with the D3 cars down 45.9 vs 29.9 for foreign, trucks 42.5 vs 33.2%.

I hope I am wrong but I think we taxpayers will not be happy to see our money disappearing into this black hole.

Aaron:

Last time I checked, Magna International was not synonymous with Canada (though there are those who would beg to differ...)

Garth

GM is finished.

I live in small town Canada which HAD a large GM dealership. Two weeks ago they received a "dear John" ... of in this case a "dear GM dealer" letter telling them the franchise was no more.

They were the only GM dealer for 25Km and had sales of 600 cars in a good year (10 mechanics on staff). A year ago they were "invited" to spend upwards of $1 million to "improve" the GM appeal ... they are happy they didn't spend the money , as other dealers who did spend the money got canned also.

There is a lot of resentment in the area and GM will definitely lose a lot more market share than they expect due to local dealership closings.

It must be said, that like the breaking of a great dam, the American decent into Marxism is happening with breath taking speed, against the back drop of a passive, hapless sheeple, excuse me dear reader, I meant people.

True, the situation has been well prepared on and off for the past century, especially the past twenty years. The initial testing grounds was conducted upon our Holy Russia and a bloody test it was. But we Russians would not just roll over and give up our freedoms and our souls, no matter how much money Wall Street poured into the fists of the Marxists.
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/107459-0/

It's old school thinking that created the auto industry mess. A bright person without preconceived notions will get much better results.

Either you forgot a /sarc tag, or you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Pick one.

Perhaps the US should cease relying upon Annapolis, West Point or War College grads and pick some graduate psychology or humanities students to run their armed forces. You know, folks without those "preconceived notions" of a military bent, that'll address things in the miltary and guarantee "better results".

Apart from that, nobody should be surprised that a 31-year-old who's never been inside an auto plant was chosen by the boy-president to lead the nationalization of the US auto industry. After all, POTUS was elected without knowing the difference between his @ss or his elbow, so experience is obviously overrated.

mhb23re
at gmail d0t calm

There is a lot of resentment in the area and GM will definitely lose a lot more market share than they expect due to local dealership closings.

Have no fear, GM is about to learn that brand loyalty is fickle at best. Community / dealer loyalty is a different matter since the customers can put a face to them.

They sell a lot of cars...still....they had to get rid of the debt and pnsion obligation, they had to get their labour costs in line.

No guarantees they will succeed but it was guaranteed they would have failed if they didnt make these changes. In normal times there would have been private money available for DIP financing. The increase in oil prices hurt them, the lack of lease and auto lending November through february killed them.

This credit crunch hurt the vulnerable and GM and Chrysler were vulnerable. Ford would have been as well but they started their plans 9 months to year ahead of all of this.

Harper is sadly correct. Once the Americans were determined to provide money our only choice was between having an industry of substance or not.

My complaint is that this was known to be the answer in November and we could have been 3 months further ahead. The only thing the government is doing here is porviding financing, the rest is following bankruptcy and reorg procedures. Its not like the government is pushing private finaciers out of the way...because none are lending right now because of their own issues.

GM will live for a little while longer, the equity will be worth something as the upswing starts...government sells to get some, all or more of its money back and we truely walk away.

The whole industry will shift and diversify to prevent being caught with its pants down again.

As troubled as I am that there is taxpayer funds being used I am more concerned that the credit markets failed in this situation. IF GM can't survive after this, no government will save it...they are like a new company again. Lets hope they learned their lessons.

Not Stirred Enuf said; "It's old school thinking that created the auto industry mess. "

No it wasn't, it was Government Deregulation, Oil Speculators and the UAW.

And if your business is that great, name it.
,

does anybody really know what stupid means. i said gm et al should go bankrupt and reorgnize under that. son of a bitch i guess i was right. too bad no one listens to me, we could have several billion dollars in our pockets and avoided a defecit. duh. man things are so complicated.

not stirred. when you business goes for a shit call me.

owg - I think you're wrong. The assets of GM & Chrysler should be liquidated; that way the taxpayers won't suffer any further financial losses.

not stirred. i agree with you on brakes. had a new 1995 hyundai elantra. at 120k when traded still had 40% of brakes left.

the bear. the same thing would have been accomplished. chapte 11 allowes restructuring.

I had my '99 Buick in for it's first new battery and some sensors replaced. I said I had next to no trouble and was fairly happy. He said it was because it was "low tech". To me low tech was pounding a spark plug back in with my shoe when it blew out on the highway in my '57 Plymouth. He said the new cars were a nightmare. He is a service guy..not a very good ad guy.

Set You Free wrote in response to my comment:

crotch:

You claim that GM sold 8 million units in 2008 and that represents 20% of the total market share.

If 20% represents one-fifth of the entire market and you multiply 8 million x 5, that means a total of 40 million vehicles were sold in 2008.

I would suggest you re-check your facts.

Actually Set, I do check my facts:

if you want the numbers, in 2008 GM sold 8,355,947 vehicles (that's sold, not produced) and global auto sales in 2008 according to Scotia Capital were just over 52 million units (down a couple of million from 2007). The 20% came from the poster I quoted - the actual numbers place GM under 20%.

I've been in the car business. When they close all those shops, they will lose a lot of talented people. Look at the mining industry. Depressed markets discouraged people from becoming geologists - all the money was in finance. Now there's a shortage of geologists. If we can't find mines, how can the economy prosper?

Farming is another example. Low agricultural prices forced farmers to take a city job to be able to keep farming. Young people fled the poverty of farming - no future there. Now, as the old farmers die off, we have no young people who know how to farm. Their skills do not come out of a text book. They learn by doing and observing - a system of calculated trial and error.

As governments kill off industries, those skills will be lost. Entrepreneurs will give up.

What they are teaching now is how to hold your hand out for the dole. No skill required to be successful at that. We are becoming a nation on the dole.

owg - you can't be following the chapter 11 process to closely. Part of GM's restructuring proposal includes 9.5 billion USD from Canadian governments.

That's a lot of dough for a sloth that needs to be put to a quick death.

not stirred enough said, said: "My Toyota has 280,000 KM on it and is still on its original brakes and has never been in the shop for repairs, never!"

So you're telling me you have a car whose brakes lasted 280,000k, which is 178,000 miles, and have never been serviced? Same rotors, same pads? On a 4Runner? That you drive "aggressively"?

Dude, if you're going to lie, at least try to tell one that's faintly believable eh? Brake pads last 40-60,000 miles. I just did the pads AND rotors on all four wheels of my Honda Pilot at 37,000 miles. Right rear was metal to metal, the other three almost so.

Who do you think you're talking to here?

So, does this mean we can go up to a GM employee and yell at them "MY TAXES PAY YOUR WAGES!"?
;-)

Speedy, if you think "new" cars are a nightmare wait until you see a hybrid. Oh baby, there's some uncharted territory under them hoods.

Most of the problem with the newer cars for me is I can't get my hands inside, everything is too small. I have to disassemble the whole front end to change the rad hose.

Going to be a big demand for female mechanics with tiny little hands pretty soon. Or maybe for engineers who remember you have to be able to FIX it, not just drive it.

Not stirred - How many km does your vehicle's odometer show? By my calculation, driving as you have indicated 300 km/day with an assumed 5 day work week and a vehicle bought new in 2002 you would have accumulated approx. 504,000 km (7 years @ 300 km/day over a 5 day work week @ 48 weeks/year - generous for a business owner), oh yeah and without any kind of brake job.

Which is it 280,000 km at 55% of the daily mileage you reported or 504,000 at the reported 300 km/day without a brake job.

Or, is your booming business run so well by 30 year-old MBA grads that you rarely go into the office?

PS - Picking up our new GMC vehicle tomorrow.

Purchased eleven GM vehicles in my lifetime - all but one was new.

After today - only a Ford, a Honda or a Toyota will be on the short list.

Skip, I am only fifty, everything you have said is on target. This reconfiguring is a deliberate multinational business strategy, based like you said, on greed. We are giving billions, to allow china/GM, to capture their share of the market, considering currency manipulation, and our debt they own. Probably why north Korea is firing their missiles, during the GM bankruptcy..and what a coincidence North Korea loves Buicks..Globalisation versus all workers..www.whocontrolstheworld.org
Pray for the dead...fight like Hell for the living..jones/organize!

Posted by: Shawn at June 1, 2009 3:59 PM

Thanks, but that's the fourth time, in the last four days, this link has been posted from Drudge.

I do like its theme thought, that the Russian people's spirituality could not be ground out of them as easily as North Americans.

The Russian people understand patience, as they also managed to maintain their dignity under the Mongolian horde for centuries.

Thankfully, the US people get to go to the polls next fall. It remains to be seen if they've learned anything or if their descent into slavery will continue.

not stirred enough said, said: "My Toyota has 280,000 KM on it and is still on its original brakes and has never been in the shop for repairs, never!"

My sister in law was driving her 97 Camry on Whitemud freeway in Edmonton when the hood flew open, luckily she was able to pull over in time and avoid being rear ended or hitting another vehicle. She took the car in for a latch repair and 2 months later was driving on HWY 16, going 110 km when the hood flew open again - her windshield was shattered and she missed hitting a power pole by mere inches. Her daughter was with her. But - luckily, she was able to "brake" in time.

What I can't figure out is how they are going to handle the fact that the union is now management.

Someone able to explain that one to me?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gI42TgxtvU-o-MIxBt4YQa11qZ3A

soooo how does that 'work' again?

mr harper the conservative engaging in huge government 'investment' in PRIVATE INDUSTRY?

isn't that what the hated socialists do?

is harper a closet socialist? he's certainly the biggest HYPOCRITE in government today.

Kate, here's a headline suggestion for another time like this one ...

What could possibly go right?