Nobody needs to be a doctor.

And those who choose to, given the shortage of doctors about to come down, don't need to be that competent.

Have they ever been really competent here in Canada, Amy P?

Who holds their feet to the fire?
How do the families of patients get justice?

Tsatsi's incompetence would have to be severe and to have cost lives to have been noticed at all and for him to have been suspended.

Here in the okanagan, there are a lot of doctors/health practitioners from outside Canada.

I know of a lot of good doctors from South Africa, both white and black (one anyways), and we are really lucky we have them for the services they provide. Without them, we would be definitely worse off.

Wonder if we did not have such an exodus of Canadian doctors to US 10 to 15 years ago if the end balance would be the same. Now there will be no big incentive for Canadian doctors to leave ;)

This might end up being good for us.

Like crabs in a bucket.

Have they ever been really competent here in Canada, Amy P?

Wouldn't know. I'm American, so we're just getting to taste the glories of socialized medicine.

we're just getting to taste the glories of socialized medicine.
~Amy P.

Well Amy P, you're in for a treat./
Socialized medicine is by far the single largest budgetary expenditure of every level of government in Canada and your people are going to foot the cost of start-up implementation right at the beginning of the Great Recession.

Free skittles and unicorns for all!

Gee, I always thought the dirty little secret about socialized medicine was that a lot of people died waiting in lines to get access to medical care.

Now I know better :)

No Fred, the dirty little secret is that every time people complain about the waiting lists the politicians spend money to study how to cut the waiting lists, the study always concludes the solution is that the system needs more money, the politicians throw more money at it, and the money goes to pad the bank accounts of the Unionized workers associated with the medical industry.

That hasn't been a secret for a long time, Fred.

I think that the current president will be finding a whole lot of issues to be out of his depth. This is the price you pay for hiring an Alinsky-trained "community organizer" to run America.

At best Akinsky-schooled community leaders were pay-rolled agitators. Paladins of chaos for hire who took their civil disruption techniques from Saul Alinsky's handbook "Rules for Radicals" to frenzy local communities into mass hysteria over some flimsy social injustice grudge either real or fabricated.

It is a long step from being a professional agitator-complainer to the nation's top problem solver offering effective solutions which please the majority.

So far I see BO stumbling in making that step. Obviously he has no worked out solutions at hand and relies on the community radicals inside his teleprompter for fast solutions and sketchy implementation. So far what the teleprompter oracle offers is calamitous economic policy, Laputan social placebos and official ideological pogroms - all of which defy the dynamics of reasoned lucid governing.

I wonder how long it will take the HRC to get involved , and deem that this Dr. , is in fact the real victim here

The dirty little secret is that it costs the government a lot of money to train doctors and when they graduate they can and do go where they make the most money and have the best working conditions. Rarely is this in a socialized medicine environment. Since extra funding for training more doctors does not show any results for a decade politicians are reluctant to do this as they only worry about the next election.

Another dirty little secret is that training both men and women to be doctors does not create the same future benefit. Women doctors tend to work much less over their careers as they put trivial little things like having kids, family, and quality of life ahead of working long hours, being on-call and taking hospital privileges. Hence we need to train more female doctors to get the same coverage as with male doctors.

...they can and do go where they make the most money and have the best working conditions...

Perhaps Obama will be helping Canada to retain more Canadian trained doctors.

I can't wait until we adopt the poorly performing medical system from the good ole USA...oh wait... nobody, except the well heeled and entrenched corporate interests, not even most Americans, wants that system... never mind.

There are alot of problems concerning our healthcare. You can't say its just this or the other. Everything just seems to stack on top of the other. Combined that with the drain by hyphenated Canadians , and the fact that our politicians tend to put "special intrest" groups first. It's all about the vote

Read this again:

"Nobody needs to be a doctor."

People who are smart enough to get through medical school are smart enough to do other things.

There are alot of problems concerning our healthcare. You can't say its just this or the other. Everything just seems to stack on top of the other. Combined that with the drain by hyphenated Canadians , and the fact that our politicians tend to put "special intrest" groups first. It's all about the vote

"Combined that with the drain by hyphenated Canadians , and the fact that our politicians tend to put "special intrest" groups first."

Any proof of this or are these the typical rantings of a SDA racist?

I think doctors are all indiviuals--some are good--some are not so good--some are not good at all!!

All doctors who enter a Canadian province and intend on practicing have to pass an exam. If that province passes the Doc--he or she should be competent. I believe the same rule applies in most free countries, even in the USA.

An American doctor would have to write an exam if she or he wanted to practice at say, The Mayo Clinic. Correct me if I'm wrong!

In any event, I'd guess that any Canadian government that tries to mess with medicare will find itself defeated very quickly! That I know for a fact!!

My nephew is an airline pilot in the USA, his wife is an accountant. Both are joggers, healthy, non smokers non drinkers. He is 33 she is 32, they have two healthy kids. He was on probation for a year, they now have medical coverage from the airline. However their insurance costs, prior to this month, were $750.00 per month!! You want to live in the USA? Go ahead, make my day!!

Jack Frosst, you did not finish.
What are Canadians paying for our Health Care rationing system?

"My nephew is an airline pilot in the USA, his wife is an accountant. Both are joggers, healthy, non smokers non drinkers. He is 33 she is 32, they have two healthy kids. He was on probation for a year, they now have medical coverage from the airline. However their insurance costs, prior to this month, were $750.00 per month!! You want to live in the USA? Go ahead, make my day!!"

A good point.

However, how much of your taxes, per month, go to medical care in Canada? If it is more than $750 per month, why not go with a US system?

Then the other point is quality. Universal medical care is one size fits all.

I would prefer to have my $750 per month in taxes (or whatever it is) back so that I could purchase the type/amount of medical care that is best for me and my family.

My parents were English-speaking, Commonwealth educated individuals (teacher/nurse- both now retired) who, when trying to enter the Canadian workforce, were told that despite their licenses and years of experience, they weren't good enough to work in Canada. My father often had to wait for someone qualified to test him (to see if he was up to Canadian snuff) and my mother had to correct Canadian nurses' mistakes on my brothers (she's still appalled by the filth and indifference in Canadian hospitals).
If any old experience will do, why not take the qualifications, experience AND dedication of two people whose training and experience is akin to what one might receive in Canada? Was someone afraid they would get more bang for their buck?
I am not arguing that anyone should be given a pass, just those whose qualifications and experience are above question.

Actually, this doctor was allowed to practice in his specialty prior to passing his board exams. They give foreign doctors three tries to pass them within a set period of time, and he was about to run out of time ...

PS: A radioligist is not a doctor! I won't say that a doctor cannot become a radiologist or vice versa, however most radiologists are technicians! Check out SIAST (web site and search "radiology."

And for those who believe that USA doctors don't make mistakes, go to Google and enter: "How do I sue my medical doctor in the USA" Bettter yet, check out the famous court case known as "Fantasy V Reality."

In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was US$6,714; in Canada, US$3,678.[5] The U.S. spent 15.3% of GDP on health care in that year; Canada spent 10.0%. The health statistics also favour the Canadian system.

I'm sorry what is your argument against our system again? Oh that's right, exceptionable systemic failures. If you keep ignoring the unexceptional American heath care failures, your assertions seem cogent.

Jack Frosst,

I concur with Mberridge said.

Everytime you talk about private health care, people panic and exclaim quite loudly about the costs of health insurance, cost of a good doctor etc, etc.

What most people fail to realize is how much of a money sink our system is, and how much money would be saved by leaving the current system and giving people the freedom of choice.

In the end it's all about freedom.

Oh, and history has proven that socialized medical care doesn't work, use google, I'm too lazy and busy to get a link.

Avaia said: "I wonder how long it will take the HRC to get involved , and deem that this Dr. , is in fact the real victim here"

I wondered about that as well. I was unable to find a connection (via Google) to Afrikaans, the language/ethnicity of many doctors from South Africa who seem to use Saskatchewan as a gateway into the broader Canadian health care system.

South African doctors emigrating to Canada appear to be a problem for South Africa (see this CMAJ article from 2001 - http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/3/387 ). Based on my experience with three of them in BC who started out in Sask it may be a problem for Canada as well. OTOH I may have just had a run of bad luck.

Jack

My Mom's a GP here in Canada. She'd have specialized if not for the two kids she was raising while she went through Med School (try that one...)

She graduated top 10% of her class at UofT.

She has wished for some time she was a Vet instead. She likes animals...

The dirtiest secret is that most GP's in Canada are poorly paid gatekeepers put in place to keep the specialists in check so governments can "keep the lid on costs".

Ontario governments run by three different parties had the same answer when asked to increase funding for more medical student places at universities. NO! NO! NO! They also had the same answer for qualified students who offered to pay all costs involved in their own education plus plus. NO! NO! NO!

Well, Joe, I have projected numbers for 2008.
Per capita spending is expected to be over $5,000 CAD.
These are TAX dollars.
Jack Frosst's example of insurance costs were around 200 per capita per month. (2400 per year)
Even in Canadian money, its not close.
How much is spent by Canadians who go to the U.S. for medical care?
Numbers dont mean anything unless the whole picture is examined.
Wait until Americans get introduced to "wait times/lists"
Interesting times.

"Oh, and history has proven that socialized medical care doesn't work, use google, I'm too lazy and busy to get a link."

Exactly which facts do you object to, the superior heath indices of the Canadian system or the cost advantage?

Standards in the rural parts of the province tend to be a little more 'forgiving'. It becomes a matter of having no doctor or one that has yet to pass full accreditation. That doesn't mean they are all bad just that your chances aren't as good in remote areas. The same is true to an extent in the US. If you have basic credentials and want to work on a Reserve in Nevada or in the Appalachians you have a lot better chance than practicing in Phoenix or Richmond.

"Socialized medicine is by far the single largest budgetary expenditure of every level of government in Canada and your people are going to foot the cost of start-up implementation right at the beginning of the Great Recession."

Sorry to burst your bubble Oz, but the facts get in the way of your little fantasy world. From wikipedia:

"The U.S. spent 15.3% of GDP on health care in that year; Canada spent 10.0%. In 2006, 70% of health care spending in Canada was financed by government, versus 46% in the United States. Total government spending per capita in the U.S. on health care was 23% higher than Canadian government spending, and U.S. government expenditure on health care was just under 83% of total Canadian spending (public and private)."

So without socialized medicine, the U.S. already funds 46% of health care in the U.S...not only that, but per capita spending is much higher. Whether that equates higher quality care is up for grabs...though another quote from that same wikipedia page quotes a study that says:

"A peer-reviewed comparison study of health care access in the two countries published in 2006 concluded that U.S. residents are one third less likely to have a regular medical doctor, one fourth more likely to have unmet health care needs, and are more than twice as likely to forgo needed medicines."

Gee whiz, when can I get my non-socialized medical plan? I just can't wait!

First Dr. Charles Smith and now this guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Randal_Smith

What kind of background, history checks are they doing in Sask hospitals, and doesn't the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Saskatchewan have a better system for monitoring these cracks?

Lee, you just embarrassed yourself with your numbers.

You asserted nothing that undermines the essential fact that the Canadian system is more economical and performs better in the aggregate.

Good luck though, apparently Rich from Alberta has some compelling Google data he can provide, if he finds the time.

"In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was US$6,714; in Canada, US$3,678.[5] The U.S. spent 15.3% of GDP on health care in that year; Canada spent 10.0%. The health statistics also favour the Canadian system.

I'm sorry what is your argument against our system again? Oh that's right, exceptionable systemic failures. If you keep ignoring the unexceptional American heath care failures, your assertions seem cogent."

Again, good points (if true). However, I would have to see the total cost/benefit to judge. There are harder to qualify factors such as quality and access. How do you rate wait times and the human cost of the pain/lower quality of life of waiting 2 years for a hip replacement? How is that factored into your numbers?

It's a complicated issue that cannot be summed up so easily.

Perhaps I am typical of SDA readers and cannot get past my own biases, but I would prefer more choice to less. I think it promotes competition, keeps people/organizations more honest, and allows me to find the best medical coverage fit for my family.

"... the Canadian system is more economical and performs better in the aggregate"

Oh, absolutely. Unless you really get sick, and need to see a specialist. Or require an ER. Or need a family doctor in Ontario. Or don't mind interminable waiting for elective surgery. Or...

If you think a state-run monopoly is a better watchdog on budget spending than private companies, why, I'd love to sell you some real estate, sometime. Cheap, honest!!

Governments can't fix the canuck health problem because governments are the problem.

mhb23re
at gmail d0t calm

I'll concede that the American system is superior for those of means. However, both systems ration their resources, the American system by means, the Canadian system by need. This then becomes essentially an ideological dispute. Which system of rationing is more equitable?

Leftards:

The US has no waiting lists for anyone with insurance or the ability to pay. The best care money can buy is expensive.

A single large US city has more MRI's than Canada. That's due to the higher expenditure. Here in Canada, we have waiting lists full of people the government hopes die before they get care. That would get any HMO in the US sued out of existence.

The US system is better than ours for 70% of the population. Both middle/upper income (who get the best care in the world) and the poor (which are covered by medicare.)

Only the lower-middle class is hard done by.

Like all leftards, you compare figures which are not comparable to make a point which isn't relevant.

Compare the money spent by government on the people covered by government.

Private care is illegal outside of Quebec (who seem to be able to get away with what other provinces can't.) So, obvious to non-leftards, if people were able to pay for better care here instead of going to the states, the numbers would look much different. The lower cost of care here is due to less care here - not better care.

Oh, and most of the people in the US who are not covered are only without coverage for short periods between jobs or they are young healthy people who decide they don't want to pay for coverage.

"Oh, absolutely. Unless you really get sick, and need to see a specialist. Or require an ER. Or need a family doctor in Ontario. Or don't mind interminable waiting for elective surgery. Or..."

are poor, lose your job, your insurer drops you, or your HMO rejects your treatment...oops, that's the superior American system.

Get off your high horse mhb. Health care is a cost-plus business, meaning that at the first sign of trouble, a doctor could set you up for a full battery of tests knowing that his practice will profit as a result.

Canadians live an average of 2 years longer than Americans, and have better infant mortality rates. The wait time differential between Canada and the U.S. can be explained by the amount of money we spend on our system. From that same wikipedia article:

"Canadians also experience waits for medical emergency and specialist services, although there are high numbers of people waiting under both the U.S. and Canadian systems. Studies by the Commonwealth Fund found that 24% of Canadians waited 4 hours or more in the emergency room, vs. 12% in the U.S.; 57% waited 4 weeks or more to see a specialist, vs. 23% in the U.S."

So it appears that in terms of delivery of service, we wait about twice as long for our services. This does not often affect real emergency treatments...as I said, our life expectancy is higher. So, we could increase our health care expenditures by 50% so that we can spend 15% of our GDP on health care like the U.S. does...all for shorter wait times? The fact remains that Canada allocates health care resources more efficiently than the U.S.

The politicians who grind on about two-tier health care and queue jumping are the ones who aren't affected by it. Ever hear of a politician who didn't get immediate attention for their ailments?

I want ever dime back.
All that money spent on something I DON'T WANT.
If I want insurance I'll go buy it, if I don't how dare you make me buy it anyway. Get the point yet leftards?

Yeah, you're not part of society. Oh wait, unfortunately you are

How many doctors evacuated Quebec years ago when stuff started coming down on them from the hallowed halls of red tape?

joebaloni what an apropos name. I'm a member of this socialist hell hole because the scumbag turdoh lied to use and turned our great free country into this. YUK.

Kate, while I completely support private health care, this has little to do with the overarching type of health care system. America has these issues as well. Also my doctor is from South Africa and he is a damned good one.

bar_jebus

You ever consider the US's penchant for killing each other may have more to do with their life expectancy? Or the poor eating habits?

Oh, and we're catching up on obesity and poor eating habits so I'm gonna guess we'll look more like them soon rather than the other way around.

But stats are a fun way to not understand things. They are also a fun way to lie. Studies by agenda driven agencies are not credible. Funny how leftards would discount anything done by Exxon but believe without question anything some foundation with an agenda told you.

We also don't get access to new technologies and drugs anywhere near as fast as the US because the government doesn’t want to pay for it.

joebaloni

I repeat: the poor are covered by Medicare. It's the lower middle class which is often left out.

Question for you halfwits:

Would you consider the sytem used by Europe and the vast majority of the civilized world?

"What are Canadians paying for our Health Care rationing system?"

Last I heard, our "free" system cost every person in this country $3200 per year or $266 per month; for a family of four, that's $1066.

A few months ago, the head of the Calgary Health region was on the radio and he said that it cost every Calgarian "just" $7 or 8 per day. At either rate, that's over $10,000 per year for a family of four.

Say anything you want about our system, free it ain't.

Our free healthcare is doubly misnamed - it isn't free and health doesn't need care.

No wonder our health care is cheaper. I've had a skin condition on my freaking face for five months and I have to wait three more before I can see a dermatologist.

I can see the same doctor at the same clinic next week if I wanted cosmetic surgery. But, because I have a real medical need, I had to see a GP who gave me a referral to get on a list to get an appointment.

It's got to the point where I'm considering heading to Minnesota or North Dakota and paying out of pocket so I'm not embarrassed to go out in public.

It's a great system -- to keep costs down, refuse to see patients. You have no other avenues to explore.

Being a Canadian who has been living in the US for several years now I can attest to the straight-up fact that the healthcare system down here is superior to Canada’s.

-Access is fantastic. It takes minutes to find any doctor and book any appointment.
-Surgery and visit wait times are minimal(hours or a few days).
-Hospitals are modern and have the latest and greatest equipment.
-The majority of people have health insurance(those that don’t are rich enough to pay cash or go thru one of the many gov. medical programs available).
-Health insurance (company or privately sponsored) is just not that expensive.

-The really cool part is that you pick your coverage levels much like auto-insurance. If you want a higher deductable, no optical, etc to save money, go for it. Currently I pay an out-of-pocket $50/year deductable and $10 co-pay on all drugs, this certainly does not break the bank.
-Also, you should ask yourself this question: Would you rather have a doctor operate on you who performs 10-20 operations/procedures a year(Canadian or third world doctor) or a doc who does a 200+ operations/procedures a year(US doctor).

And one last point towards this blog post: The issue is not ‘ideological’, Canada’s system is malfunctioning exponentially, and any reasonably-minded person can see this. So those that scream that the ‘US system is worse!’ I suggest you take your head out of the sand, take a good look at works down here and other countries, and change what you’ve got.

The U.S. spends more on health care than any nation on the planet. To say, "the U.S. system is superior to Canada's" is stating the obvious. What I'm directly my comments towards is how efficiently resources are allocated. If we bumped our spending on healthcare to match the U.S. (an increase of 50%), I have no doubt we could equal their care. At that point it would be viable to have comparisons between the two systems based on service received since we've eliminated money from the equation.

"Studies by agenda driven agencies are not credible."

Ah yes, those pesky studies, always bringing "facts" into an ideological argument. How are statistics regarding the amount of money being expended on health care "agenda driven"? They're numbers....how you interpret the fact that the U.S. spends vastly more on its health care is up to you.

Hey the leftards are calling everyone racist, they must be getting their lazy welfare fat asses gift-wrapped and handed to them again.

Philadelphia has more MRI's than our entire country.
There are 10 month waiting periods for beds in the maternity ward.
The average American family keeps 10,000 dolars more after taxes than the average Canadian family.

Sorry to burst your bubble Oz, but the facts get in the way of your little fantasy world.
~bar_jebus at May 21, 2009 1:18 PM

Not at all. I didn't compare Canada to the U.S.
I said, "Socialized medicine is by far the single largest budgetary expenditure of every level of government in Canada."

Furthermore, you clearly demonstrated that you have no idea what GDP is and that you have a severe reading comprehension deficit.

That you imagine you burst any bubbles is entirely delusional on your part.
It is you, bar-jebus, that live in a fantasy world.

Jason,

I'd also like to introduce you to some elementary math skills:

17,000 murders in the U.S. per year
2,509,000 deaths in the U.S. per year

17000 / 2509000 = 0.6% of all deaths are related to murder

Our murder rate in Canada is about half of the U.S.'s....so there's a 0.3% difference in the rate of deaths between our countries due to murders...its pretty easy to see that murder is not a factor when determining the reason that our life expectancy is higher than the U.S.

Very true, I mis-read your comment completely :)

I do know what GDP is, and while different from government expenditures, its still a valid measure of how much we as Canadians spend on health care compared to the Americans.

"That hasn't been a secret for a long time, Fred

Sorry Kate, it was a lame attempt to be cynical/snarky.

Been trying to quit coffee for the last while. Obviously it has unintended side effects. My snark meter is waaaay off.

its still a valid measure of how much we as Canadians spend on health care compared to the Americans.~bar-jebus

No it isn't.
American service and Canadian service in medicine are not equal so comparing GDP isn't useful.
Canada fails in the area of diagnostics where we have waiting lists. That means serious problems are diagnosed late.

What Americans are in for a shock about, is how much of the budget of every level of government, that means State and Municipal not just Federal, is going to be paying compared to what their existing budgets are now paying for medical care.

Just imagine American surprise when they encounter their first Unionized nurse's strike.

bar_jebus

You missed the second part. Lifestyle.

That said, the murder rate per 100,000 residents is more than triple in the US. Per year. Add that to 80 years of lifetime and it adds up in the life expectancy which is total, not yearly.

The average murder rate per 100,000 people between 1998-2004 was 1.82 for Canada and 6.3 for the US.

"Ah yes, those pesky studies, always bringing "facts" into an ideological argument."

So when an exxon study says that global warming doesn't exist you believe them or do you only mean that "facts" are only valid if you like them...

Oz,

It is a useful comparison as the lack of funding is the cause of wait times, not the other way around. I have identified that we could boost health care spending by 50% and only then would we equal the Americans in terms of GDP spent on health...seeing that our wait times are about twice as long as American ones (according to data I already posted), those numbers seem comparable....but really they're not since an increase of 50% in health care budgets would bring us more than just better wait times. We already receive great care from our health system, but it is very delayed.

"What Americans are in for a shock about, is how much of the budget of every level of government, that means State and Municipal not just Federal, is going to be paying compared to what their existing budgets are now paying for medical care."

Just imagine when they don't have to worry about insurance payments every month. All its doing is shifting the cost of health care around in the hope that everyone can be included in the system rather than just those who can afford it, which is something we Canadians already do rather efficiently.

Jason,

Mortality rates are also per year...did your socialized education forget to teach you math? Such a poor system isn't it? ;)

That said my ratio of a 0.3% higher rate of death in the U.S. still holds as I was comparing two sets of numbers that were both per year.

I personally don't believe that humans cause global warming. Try a brush thats not so broad next time when painting people you disagree with. And why do you keep bringing up Exxon?

bar_jebus

"Mortality rates are also per year..."

Actually, you referred to how many years longer CDNs live as compared to yanks. That figure is called life expectancy. It spread over the average... wait for it... life.

Socialized education indeed. I guess they taught you how to change the benchmark when called on your errors.

And before you go ragging on any more about a 50% rise in Canada's health spending to match US spending, you may want to consider that since American GDP per capita is higher, their spending per GDP at any given rate is a higher absolute level of spending than the same figure would be in Canada.

In other words, not only do they spend more of their income on Health, they have more income. So multiply your 50% figure by the difference in GDP per capita to get the real figure.

Since you're a leftard, I'll be more explicit. If (using a round, obviously not indicative figure) you have a GDP per capita of 100,000 (way higher than actual) in the US, and you spend 15% of your GDP on Health, you are spending 15,000 dollars per capita. The same % spending at 50,000 of GDP means 7,500 per capita.

So, we make less and also spend less as percentage of our income.

bar_jebus

"why do you keep bringing up Exxon?"

I only bring up Exxon as it's the slander any of the gorbots use to trash everyone who dissents.

BUT, they do bring up a point that the source of a study or "poll" or statistic matters (the slander part is that most of the dissenter have never taken a penny of their money.)

If your source is biased, you can't trust the outcome as it has a high likelihood of being manipulated.

In other words, when a group with agenda A commissions a study on said topic, what do you think the odds are that they will come up with a report which does anything but affirm their agenda?

"Actually, you referred to how many years longer CDNs live as compared to yanks. That figure is called life expectancy. It spread over the average... wait for it... life."

....are you serious? The numbers I posted show that out of all deaths, the difference in murder rates between the U.S. and Canada only account for a difference of 0.3-0.4%....do you honestly believe that the 0.3-0.4% more deaths due to murders in the U.S. contribute to a lower life expectancy by 2 years? Your silly attempts to make that 0.3-0.4% into a cumulative number is absurd.

You do make a good point about our countries respective PPP, but even still, our 35,000 to their 45,000 only accounts for a difference of ~25%. That leaves a full 25% increase avaliable for us to put towards health care. Its too bad you didn't bother looking up the numbers to save yourself the embarrassment.

I really enjoy your derisive use of the word leftard...it just shows how you're completely unable see this debate in anything but ideological terms rather than real facts. The funniest thing of all? I probably agree with you on a whole range of issues that lean more to the right than the left. Grow up.

We already receive great care from our health system, but it is very delayed.~bar-jebus

I, personally, have been on the receiving end of delayed care and "great" it is not.
It has a huge impact on your quality of life and those who are close to you as well.

I hope you receive some delayed care yourself.

As for delayed diagnostics, you clearly don't comprehend that leads to cronic or terminal health conditions.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure or a stitch in time saves nine they used to say.

In the American system they don't have delayed diagnostics.

The lack of funding isn't the cause of wait times.
Increased funding goes to increased wages and benefits for Canadian medical staff every time.

I've seen diagnostic equipment idle when having to use it at 4:00AM New Years day. I waited 6 months for that visit. Prior to the visit I waited 6 months to get the visit booked. Prior to getting the visit booked I waited for 6 months to see the specialist who booked the visit for me.

I was lucky. When my GP saw my problem he said it would take 5-7 years to get the operation.
I got it in less than 2.(I found a way to jump the cue)
Did you think that was great, bar-jebus?
It wasn't.

mberridge. where do you get your numbers? in ontario over 40% of the provincial gdp goes for health care. when doctors become civil servants what the hell do you expect. 9 to 5 and half that time is spent doing paperwork.

I'm a Paramedic, not a doc. But I must admit. If anyone thinks the GOV can do a better job.

Please, tell me which one that is?
Cost over runs, waste of taxpayers money, Fools working for the gov, Paper work, paper work, papaer work.....

bar_jebus

Ah, not to put too fine a point on it but I didn't put a figure on how much more we would have spend to match the yanks. I merely pointed out that your figure didn't take into consideration the difference in income.

From another poster above:

"In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was US$6,714; in Canada, US$3,678"

So, provided these figures are accurate, we would have to spend 82.5% more to match the yanks in health spending and not 50%. That difference in income matters.

Income and PPP are not the same by-the-way.

As per the murder rate's effect, I didn't claim it made up the whole difference. In fact, I specifically mentioned a second factor: lifestyle. I don't have to factor into some model every variable which will account for every bit of the difference.

All I have to do is point out some for you to be wrong. You implied in your post at 1:49 that funding of health care wasn't needed because they spend more but have lesser outcomes. You implied it would be a waste of money. So, as an illustration of why your point is wrong, I offered two reasons why.

Life expectancy has a hell of a lot more to it than health spending as a percent of GDP. When you equate the two and say that money is wasted by increasing health spending just because the Yanks have a shorter life expectancy, you are not making a valid point. In most of Europe, they spend more than Canada (just like the US) but their numbers are better than ours (unlike the US.) By the less-than-statistically valid reference to US, Europe and Canada, I'd say health spending is Uncorrelated to life expectancy.

I point out two of the multitude of other explanations to any difference in life expectancy between us and the US. I didn't suggest I accounted for all of them. To make the point your assertion is foolish, I don't have to.

And, if you are dealing with life expectancy, small mortality differences based on any number of variables DO add up over the years and IS cumulative. Just like all the illnesses you can die from may be small by themselves and over short periods, but they add up. Not sure what's difficult to comprehend.

Kate -- it's a good point that people don't need to become doctors but your example is lousy. You can find bad doctors anywhere. We also have some of the very best here in Canada -- money does not drive every decision people make.

Even saying all that, I still buy your general point that government control will reduce the pool of people that want to become doctors.

And, South African family doctors are, on the aggregate, among the very best in Canada and we should be glad to have them. My wife, a physician, has worked with many of them and she is very impressed at their level of training.

I'd be mad as H*ll if this guy had botched up my x-ray, or any of the members of my family.

Is a lousy doctor better than no doctor? Since moving to the Big Smoke two years ago, I've been going to a doctor "recommended" by a family member. Every time I've gone to her, she's screwed up: lost my file, had my birth date wrong in the computer (big problem if I'd ever ended up in an ER), had another patient's report on a urine sample on my file ('wonder what she told the patient whose results were in my file?), leaves her patients' files open on her computer when she leaves you alone in her office (I could photograph this very personal info with my cell phone...), forgets to give you pertinent paper work, etc., etc. There's more.

I'm desperately looking for a competent doctor and wonder where I can find one. This doctor practices in a very tony part of Toronto, as part of a group of MDs. As far as I can see, the whole outfit is questionable and it's time to move on! But where to?

All I know is my counter parts in western PA or TX(similar pay levels, same job within the company), could have an insured MRI within the week, I'd doubt I'd be able to get one before the first day of summer...

Its not insurance if its mandatory, its not free if every two weeks I notice 1/3 of my hard work doesn't make it to the bank account. If the feds/province spend 40% of their budgets on health care, that means I'm paying over $400 every two weeks for health care, hardly a bargain even in contrast to anecdotal american perspectives of 700 a month. I guess I should feel pride in that perhaps half of that $400 is paying for someone else's health care, but all I feel is poor and afraid to break my leg.

Bar & phoneybaloni

Another factor to consider when comparing GDP #'s is many Canadians don't receive any treatment due to rationing; therefore, the GDP #'s you quote are skewed. As it was stated above the argument is statistically unsound and therefore irrelevant.

The bottom line is our current healthcare system is unsustainable. There will be a time in the near future when services will not be available to Canadians because the system will have gone bust. Canadian will get healthcare reform one way or another, it's just my opinion that it should be done on our terms.

Once again, for the left this is an ideological argument, so it's politics. Unlike abortion there is middle ground here, it's just that the left in Canada are unwilling negotiate. I suspect you know this Bar so you need only to remove your head from your arse. Regarding phoneybaloni, the space between his ears is too vast a chasm to navigate safely.

batb, you should move to Nova Scotia dear. In the midst of a provincial election and some parties are promising everyone their own doctor (forget the chicken in every pot). Never mind that they have ERs that close for part of the summer. I guess nobody is allowed to have an emergency then.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; as one who has worked in both US and Canadian systems, the biggest difference is that in the US you are a customer, whereas in Canada you are a debt. In the US they want your business because it is a source of revenue, where in Canada they budget for only x number of patients, any more and heaven forbid it will cost us more money than we allotted for.

Ever see $25 million dollars set aside for "wait time guarantee" sit around for over two years because nobody can figure out how to best use it? People are queuing up to die and the boards can't decide on the lunch menu.

As it happens, S. Africa trains exceptional physicians. We're not talking about Somalia or Chad.

The real issue is why did it take 5 years for this fellow's competence to be questioned.

Of course, if Chretien hadn't cut med school enrolment in '93, we wouldn't have as bad a doctor shortage today.

S. Africa trains exceptional physicians.

I hope Dr. L. Darius Tsatsi is the exception.

To be honest Jason, I didn't understand your latest post too well. I never said that spending more on health care is a waste...I merely pointed out that our life expectancy is higher than Americans, and yet we spend far far less of our GDP on it than them. There are obviously many other factors that affect life expectancy, but I would maintain that the quality of health care being provided would be perhaps the greatest factor in a developed nation (by that I mean we can assume violent death, famine, etc. are not factors).

Oz,

"As for delayed diagnostics, you clearly don't comprehend that leads to cronic or terminal health conditions. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure or a stitch in time saves nine they used to say."

I understand what delayed care leads to. There are flaws inherent in both systems. In the Americans, people who pay for private insurance tend to avoid using it for fear of increasing their premiums. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure most people value their health over monetary concerns, but I enjoy having the ability to inquire about any issue on my health without fear of hurting my financial situation. I really can't grasp how placing a patient under extreme financial stress is supposed to help them recover.

That systemic issue hurts preventative care in the U.S.. Here, our problem is wait times. Health problems that would have been simple to fix can become much more complicated and even lead to death. I am sorry for your delayed care that you've received...my own father just got his hip surgery after a year and a half wait, so I'm not completely unaware of the issue.

To be honest I feel like you're exaggerating the issue. A recent CBC article highlighted the areas which suffer from the longest wait times:

"Patients waited longest between a GP referral and orthopedic surgery (38.1 weeks), plastic surgery (34.8 weeks) and neurosurgery (27.2 weeks)."

A far cry from the 5 - 7 years you claim. However, I don't know your situation so I'm not going to claim outright that you're lying or exaggerating.

Indiana,

"Another factor to consider when comparing GDP #'s is many Canadians don't receive any treatment due to rationing"

A very good point, and I agree. I don't think it invalids looking at the numbers however. You could just as easily say that Americans don't receive treatment or medical checkups as often due to a fear of rising premiums, etc. But I agree with your general point that there are many factors which make statistics somewhat hard to use.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/francis/archive/2009/05/13/u-s-healthcare-lies-part-ii.aspx

You don't have to look any further than our own national post to find Americans griping about their own system back home.

While I don't disagree with the main thrust of the post, ie that socialized medicine reduces the supply of Doctors, there's nothing wrong with South African doctors. I work in a hospital with several of them, and one of them is my family doc. They're in demand the world over, and we're lucky to get the ones we do, bad apples notwithstanding.

Lies - Damned Lies and Statistics ... one thing is much like the other.

Go to the root of the argument for socialized medicine.
In Canada it was a political ploy by a guy who was one goose step away from European fascists to buy the votes of people who never had any money for health care ... prairie farmers.

No more trading chickens or hogs for TB shots for the kids ... no more bills for helping the wife pump out kids number 11 and 12.

Of course it helped that your run of the mill blue collar type in the day (see Toronto and Montreal) didn't have a pot to piss in and would just as likely let little Johnny's broken arm set itself or try home made splints rather than save money to pay the doctor.

The real story is that it's all about forcing capable and responsible people to pay for the unlucky or worse the lazy and stupid.

Not sure one can conclude a whole lot based on a sample size n=1. There are certainly some very fine South African trained doctors just as there are some Canadian trained mediocrities. I'm not sure that socialized vs non-socialized medicine has very much bearing on individual physicians' clinical competence/acumen.
The major ball and chain inflicted by socialized medicine and the associated restrictions on private involvement in health care lie in the restriction of money that can be made available to spend on health care.
The great thing about a price regulated economy lies in the ability of consumers to essentially "vote" with their money. While the price of gasoline shot up last year, there was never any real shortage of gasoline. The ability to choose to allocate more money for gasoline over all the other things for which that money could have been allocated sent a strong signal through the economy to co-opt the resources needed to make gasoline available to provide consumers with what they were voting for.
I constantly hear that we spend too much money on health care. The fact that waiting lists and shortages exist is evidence that, in fact, we don't spend enough money on health care versus all the other things on which we can spend our money. Spending additional money on health care is unpopular because of the nature of health care goods and services. Health is a "hygiene" factor (no pun intended). Being illness/injury free doesn't make one happy. But being ill or injured can make one miserable. We spend money on health care to avoid or attenuate a negative. When we spend money on a spa treatment, workout at the gym or a day of skiing, we don't think of it as "health care" even though these may have a very positive effect on our overall health. I can't think of the last time anyone told me they enjoyed their last colonoscopy so much they were returning with friends and family for seconds.
Because the Canadian system precludes allocating additional funds through the private system it remains consistently short of funds, resources, and manpower.

How is it that we would scream bloody murder for paying 750/month for superior health care coverage, but 2000/month for the dream home is just fine? Priorities anyone?

To be honest I feel like you're exaggerating the issue. A recent CBC article highlighted the areas which suffer from the longest wait times:

So this time you're being honest, eh bar-jebus?

You feel like I'm exaggerating the issue because the Communist Broadcasting Corporation had an article highlighting wait times?

Grow up child.
The sooner you actually have to depend on the failing system you tout, but know nothing real about, the better.

The US needs to put a cap on the amount doctors can be sued for. This will bring insurance costs down, and they won't need the crazy high salaries.