It would seem that the only viable protests that are being seen in Western countries are coming from the "criminal element" of that society. In Sweden, it's the motorcycle gangs, in Sicily it's the Mafia. Wouldn't it be ironic if Western society is saved from itself by the very people who have decided to live "not quite in it."

~~favill~~

Hello. This is really old news. I stopped going to LGF when Charles started doing mainly evolution posts and not much about Islam. I visited after a while and found that Fjordman had been banned. After some more research, I also found out that Charles had a falling out with Robert Spencer of JihadWatch.com and thereligionofpeace.com.

Fjordman's essays were always well worth the time to read so I was very surprised to find him banned at LGF. But it's Charles' site. But when I found out about his fallout with Robert Spencer, one of the most gentle people that writes about Islam, I stopped posting at LGF.

If you click on the link to LGF at JihadWatch.com, you get directed to www.littlegreenfootballs2.com created by a growing list of banned users. They continue to post on Islam and have some worthy links so they're worth checking out.

Too bad about LGF though. I learned a bunch there. And for a while Charles dug up some of the best articles about Islam. My favourite was the Humiliating Teapot. But Charles has apparently outlived his usefulness with regards to Islam.

Left LGF a long while ago - the echo chamber and cult of personality around Charles Johnson was getting a bit shrill, and he was spending most of his time attacking the "creationist menace," not the Islamists who inspired him to turn his cycling and coding blog into something worth reading. Of course, that was long, long ago now...

I just de-listed LGF. I was a strong supporter of Charles, even when the split with GoV and others was happening. But the latest turn there, first against creationism as a crypto-Islamic plot, then against creationism in itself, now against any Christian that might espouse (espouse = not condemn in LGF speak) has turned me off. The next step is pretty obvious and repugnant. I still have it in an RSS feed because Charles still occasionally fights Islamism, but it was my first stop in the morning, no more.

When you become what you hate, then you have lost. Does it matter WHICH group you are sending to the gas chambers?

At least Fjorman finally admits that he's A-Ok with being allied with Neo-Nazis. Hardly scattered groups, but legitimate political groups that hold power.

If this blog is heading in Fjordman's direction, then I'll be deleting it from my bookmarks.

Krydor.....You just don't get it,do you? The GREATEST threats to Western Civilization right now are Islamofacism,and the politicos who bend over for it.You know,being "nice" to them, and spouting their "cause",won't save your sorry ass head from being separated from the rest of your useless body.Take your "white" guilt and stuff it.
LGF has become a Jihad,Islamofacist,Religion of Pieces supporter. Nuff said.

I don't read the columns at LGF anymore. As has been mentioned already they have become mostly rants against creationism. The Link Viewer section is still worth a visit though.

Justthinkin, I wouldn't go that far, he doesn't support Islamofascism, he simply thinks creationism (and I fear Christianity) is a bigger threat.

Western governments inability to act against multicults are driving some good folks to distraction. I'm still against cavorting with nazis, neo or otherwise, however. Charles is right when it comes to another thing about Spencer. His conclusions don't leave any wiggle room. Do we want a total war with Islam everywhere or do we want to wise people up to the dangers of this totalitarian "religion", elect politicians who "get it" and deflect its grab for power? Can we live with jihad?

Oh, I get it just fine, Justthinkin. I just don't happen to think that trading FASCISM for FASCISM is much of a trade at all.

This is simply common sense. The soft tyranny of the Nanny State has been removing freedom from the West since WWII. Its been the long, slow, sneaky Leftist incrementalist revolution.

The major cause of outrage against Muslims it seems to me, is that they won't bend over for Big Brother in Europe. They keep their 14th century bullsh1t in defiance of Euroculture, and are basically taking the place over. Normally that wouldn't be a big deal, except they keep blowing things up for no good reason and they like to burn cars.

Europeans are waking up to the fact that they can't resist the Islamists because their very own governments will not let them. Germans are discovering its illegal in Germany to actually be a German. France has decided being French is a bad thing. All will be homogeneous members of the Family of Man(TM). Objecting to outrageous behavior from identifiable "victim" groups is racist and therefore verboten.

They are not free, in other words. The oppression is soft and squishy, but under the pressure of Islamic jihad and insane PC contortions of ancient law, they are finding they can't even fart without breaking a regulation.

Louis the 14th's France looks like a shining city on a hill compared to Modern Europe, so far as personal freedom is concerned. The sole difference between Hitler's Germany and today's is they don't gas the Jews. Freedom wise there's screw-all difference. The nail which sticks up will be hammered down.

What it looks like to me is that the American Revolution of 1776 is -finally- getting over to Europe. People are realizing that freedom is the thing they are missing, and if they don't get some soon, bad things are going to happen.

America as usual is ahead of the curve, they are having their freedom revolution right now. That's why Rush Limbaugh is being targeted by the entrenched MSM and the US federal government. He's a danger to their interests, as all revolutionaries always are.

Up the revolution!

Johnson can do what he wants with his site, of course, but ban-happy comment sections eventually turn into parties that you can't wait to leave, after everyone starts turning against each other for the smallest departures from consensus. LGF passed that point at least a couple of years ago. And anyone who thinks creationists are more dangerous than Islamic fascists is living in a world I don't recognize.

Yup, I read that close to the date of composition in November. I agree with him but thought he was being a bit histrionic, drama queenish.

I have removed Little Green Footballs from my favourites due to CJ's moronic anti-anti-jihad. I was a hatchling there for a few hours and was banned for a pretty mild post [deleted] admonishing CJ and company for not being sufficiently aware of the threat and for their excessive purity and paranoia about comic-book "fascists". I believe I mentioned Churchill's alliance with Stalin against Hitler.

Weird, 'cos I once heard him interviewed on Tammy Bruce and I thought to myself, "this cat speaks with a liberal voice". I think's he's a 9/11 conservative who has reverted to his earlier liberalism. He's even been defending the Obama shoe-shine bow and put up one of Bush bowing ... to receive a medal (which I don't approve of either, come to think of it).

Fjordman is a great essayist (TM) I guess, but I feel that his writing tends toward the turgid.

I was thinking the same thing MND. He is a 9/11 conservative that is really showing his roots.

The dye job is really growing out.

I fully supported his goals of keeping creationism out of the schools, where it has no business, but he was just utterly out of step with just about everything he ever wrote 4 or 5 years ago.

Then I had the nerve to question the almighty Chuck and my account was gone within 5 minutes of the post. Emailed to ask what was what in the zoo and my IP was banned about 10 minutes after that.

"Non-Muslims in Europe who want to fight against Islamization are up against the cultural, political and media elites in their own countries, as well as the European Union, the Organization of the Islamic Conference, which is the largest voting block at the United Nations"

That pretty much sums up all the transnationalist technocratic elite cabals....NOW ask yourself just what it is about the culturally incompatible social disruption of radical Islamism that suits their goals?

Because the rant from "Downfall" never gets old, here's "The Lizard Lounge" -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFgKXAphIlc

LGF is not pro-jihad or pro-Islam. It is pro-common sense. Just as Kate has said "When the Nazis show up to protest the communists, you're supposed to pray for an asteroid, not pick a favourite." Allying with white supremacists and neo-nazis to oppose jihadists and islamists is simply picking the lesser two evils. Would you want to be associated in any way with neo-nazis? I wouldn't.

And could someone show me where Charles Johnson says that creationism is more of a danger than jihadis? Just because there are more dangerous threats doesn't mean that we should ignore everything else. CJ is not a religious right, social conservative Republican and that made many long-time lizards angry. His blog is also not solely "anti-jihadi". Some people didn't like that and told him so. It's his house, he decides who gets to stay.

Michelle, you just took the words out my mouth. Pray for an asteroid indeed. We know where nazism leads and I have trouble telling them from jihadis. I have to agree with Charles Johnson. Creationism is just nonsense. Nazis, jihadis and creationists (to a lesser extent) are all a blight on and a threat to modern society, imho. None of them are thinking clearly and I wouldn't want any of them teaching my kids or running anything larger than a two holer.

He doesn't say it, he simply devotes his blog to fightling creationists nowadays. Bobby Jindal and Sarah Palin, because they are ID friendly are suspect.

ducktrapper, Michelle, I agree with you in principles. Neo-nazi's are scum. As is the Spanish inquisition and the Khymer Rouge. But if Charles dumped his emphasis on the islamic threat and started rooting out anyone with a connection to Pol Pot and Torquemada instead, I'd feel as confused and offput as I am by his opposition to the ID movement. Whatever you think of ID (or the nationist movements in Europe) They aren't the problem. When your house is burning down, you don't stop and get your oil changed.

LGF is not pro-jihad or pro-Islam. It is pro-common sense.

C J is pro Israeli Nationalist if nothing else. All other blogs must submit their loyalty to the existence of Israel or you don’t get his holly stamp of approval. C J is quick to pounce on any European group trying to preserve their European identity but ignores the radical ideology of some of the groups in Israel trying to preserve their own.
I stopped going to LGF long ago.

Just had my first look at the place in a few days (occured to me that the work IP is not banned.... duh).

Something over 2000 posts on his "I am moving" threads. Something like eight posters.

As I said in my previous post, I actually support his stance against creationism in the schools and if he wants to pull away from the anti-jihad bent to concentrate on the bible thumpers then that is his complete right to do so. Save the fairy tales for Sunday school where it belongs.

BUT!!

For a man who absolutely demands honesty from others (remember Rathergate and the photo shop episode?), to immediately ban anyone who dares to question him?

Hypocrisy, thy name is Charles.

I commented after one of LGF's creationist rants that they at least don't blow themselves up while I'm enjoying an al fresco beer in the Old Market. That comment resulted in my immediate banning. It seems I'm in good country. The blog dilutes the real issue through it's negative focus on Christians. It has not been missed since.

Me, I bear no ill-will for Charles. He's simply not singing the same song anymore. I went to him to keep on top of the islamic threat, he's not that interested in it anymore.

I left LGF a long time ago. The whole groupie lizard echo chamber that he carefully controls got juvenile. Johnson's detour into attacking Creationism ad nauseum is just lame.

And, trust me, ducktrapper, your kids being exposed to creationism ought to be the least of your worries. I'd start the list with drugs, porn, leftist moral nihilism, the death of free thinking and speech that comes with pc, the unfair artificial guilt they are made to feel if they are white, I could go on.

Very good link to a very good essay, Kate. Does it mean that silencing of critics of ROP in Canada is not a taboo topic anymore?

Creationism is silly. Islaomfascism is actively dangerous. To focus on Creationism would seem to indicate a political agenda at odds with smaller government/less taxes conservatism.

Pity.

However, the blogosphere is a big place. Room for everybody. Yay!

Penny - I don't know you so I won't automatically trust you just as I won't trust Fjordman. He's the oh so reasonable voice of a movement I cannot stomach. CJ has ferreted out this unholy alliance and wants no part of it. I agree. Johnson tries to point out that the choice is not between the success of Vlam Belang and other white supremacist/anti semitic parties or the success of the jihadis. Both represent evil and history has no shortages of examples. I'll still take the asteroid. If it's religion you want, I'll pray for the asteroid.

Without the fact of creation, there cannot be evolution.

That's the point Charles, as well as those who manipulated Darwin's words for political purpose, cannot seem to grasp.

Does anybody here disagree that the physical world was created?

Just accept the fact that trees, animals, mountains, air and all that is around us somehow got here and that things change (evolve), then you can get on with your life.

To deny the fact that what is here was somehow created is as silly as believing living creatures somehow evolved from rocks.

There could be an unrecognised inner feeling of fear, if not that, apprehension about speaking out against radical Islam.
The power of those who are of that religion, even if they are bona fide non-militants, is obvious, if one considers how many Canadians and Americans act. The almost audible sigh of relief at being told of the "normalcy" of this Islamic entity. Sort of we have nothing to fear- after all. Perhaps we do not.
A sort of awe about the mystique of the whole idea of Islam exists. In most cases were persons to put forward ideas which are much like those of Islam and under a different banner, there would be heck to pay.
The derision for fundamental Christianity is well known. No fear to ridicule those beliefs. A sort of respectful attitude then exists to Islamic belief. This not out of a reasonable respect and accomodation for something different, but an inner apprehension. They do not articulate this, but they know it.

*
"...up against the cultural, political and media elites in their own countries..."

not to mention... afghani women...

"But we do not want total freedom. We wanted it to be limited and to be
within Islam."

*

Coincidentally I just got kicked off LGF last night, quite a first for me and apparently a culmination of getting in trouble the past two days for not going along with the owner's opinions. Since I've seldom spent a lot of time posting in the threads, I was surprised to see the host himself attack other posters repeatedly and kick one off in his "Pizzagate" thread.

He also said posters got kicked off for being "rude," but there seems to be some, er, discretion on his part there, as he "cordially" invited me to "p*** up a rope" before blocking me, and a couple of "Lizards" called me names before and after my banishment.

I never was a LGF regular and apparently exposed myself as a disloyal "Lizard," in regard, for example, to the extent praise should be offered to Obama for resolving the pirate / hostage situation, i.e.

"There is way too much mean-spiritedness in modern politics, and I for one am totally sick of it. And disappointed in those few LGF lizards who can’t find it in themselves to be gracious and say, “Well done.”

Fair enough. It's his sandbox and I hadn't fully realized the cult of personality there. He was apparently a Democrat before 9/11. He says of Obama in the same post,"I certainly don’t agree with a lot of his policies," fairly ambiguous for a blogger who writes so much. Time will tell.

I think his heart is in the right place, he's done good work and his site is useful for the user-contributed news and opinion feed, but I wonder where he's heading.

Ducktrapper, I am confused. Penny pointed out that "drugs, porn, leftist moral nihilism, the death of free thinking and speech that comes with pc, the unfair artificial guilt..." Are more imminent threats than Creationism, you feel that assertion is untrustworthy?

The one characteristic of Islam, right from its inception, has been the means by which it spread its influence.

Judaism has chronicled it sometimes violent history throughout the Old Testament, yet maintainted an underlying tribal nature, manifested in its self-description as Chosen People.

Christianity maintained that the truth was not the exclusive purview of one tribe, but it was a means of enlightenment for all nations, all economic classes and both sexes. The truth being a gift, it's appeal was in the voluntary acceptance of the gift.

Islam, right from its inception, spread its influence through violent means. From the Sword of Allah to the AK47 of Allah, this particular underlying thirst for violent subjugation of tribes unlke themselves is proudly displayed on their flags to this day.

Oddly, I just disagreed with CJ this morning and was not banned, flamed or even looked at askance. Say what you like, it IS his blog, however. Has Kate never deleted the odd poster, here?
Set You Free - "Does anybody here disagree that the physical world was created?" Is this a test? May I point out your straw man? NO ONE intelligent has said that anything living evolved from rocks. Therefore, I must respectfully disagree because you're using illogic that hurts your entire argument.

Krydor et al......LGF...LITTLE GREEN FASCISTS. CJ wants bucks...and will bow to anything and anybody who will send him advertising,if he pushes their agenda.
"If this blog is heading in Fjordman's direction, then I'll be deleting it from my bookmarks."
Ummmmmmm.....Can't handle the facts and truth?

Justfeelin, I want to be on record as disagreeing with your emotion on this issue.

duck:

You're absolutely correct. I've never read any post by you claiming living things evolved from rocks.

Speaking of ducks, did you know nearly 1,300 ducks were killed around airports in Canada last year? That's about 300 less than drowned in the oil sands tailings ponds.

This is presumably the latest in an ongoing spat between Little Green Footballs & its denizens who align themselves with nazi-loving euro anti-jihadists.
Pam Geller was an earlier traveller beyond the pale.
From your article --
"I am deeply disappointed by how Charles Johnson has handled this situation. It was dishonest when he presented the Vlaams Belang in Belgium as refusing to denounce the Holocaust.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=27674_About_Vlaams_Belang_and_Sweden_Democrats
[This is the corrected link that Fjordman has from the phrase "the Holocaust"]
[...]

From Johnson's [LGF] article --
Exhibit 1: in 2005, Vlaams Belang MPs shunned a resolution condemning the Nazi death camps.
Exhibit 2: a White Power flag at a Vlaams Belang rally this month.
Exhibit 3: As mentioned above, the predecessor to Vlaams Belang, Vlaams Blok, was outlawed in 2004. Their comeback as Vlaams Belang was applauded in 2005 by David Duke and the neo-Nazi skinheads at Stormfront.
Exhibit 4: we don’t only find support for Vlaams Belang at Stormfront. Here’s a post at the “Pan Aryan National Front,” with links to many VB videos

All with links. And 996 comments, of which one --
In this article Dewinter elucidates that his party's roots are in the Flemish Nazi Collaborators, as well as support for Haider, Le Pen and the NPD, which are all worse than those photographs

Far right groups in europe don't play well together.

Justthinkin,

What truth would that be? The only truth to this is that if you hang out with Nazis, eventually, their stench becomes a part of you.

I'm not interested in it. I despise Islamofascism for the EXACT SAME reasons I despise regular Fascism. So, why would I ally myself with people no different than my enemy?

You can do as you will and have history judge you accordingly. Last time this sort of thing happened, collaborators were about the same as their Nazi overlords.

Your choice. You make mine easier.

I stopped going to LGF well over two years ago. I haven't missed anything, it seems. Unlike the mighty SDA. :)

I don't remember Charles ever stating that he doesn't believe in a creator. In fact, he specifically reminds people that evolution and belief in God are not mutually exclusive.

He is against teaching creationism in science classes and disguising it as "intelligent design." And he makes fun of young earth creationists. A 6000 year old earth? Too funny.

What do I care about ducks? I traps 'em! ;)

Of course Kate has banned the odd poster here.

She, however, does not ban posters wholesale. She even has a skin that that is tough enough to take the odd critique. In the three years or so I have been haunting this place, I think she has banned a handfull? And zapped only the most bothersome of posts.

The post that got me banned from LGF?

"Well 20 months or so ago, it was Beck who was screaming and pounding the desk about Fanny and Freddy and the economic crash he saw coming.

I saw nothing here from you about it Chuck."

That incredibly bland post was replaced with this by Charles,

"First meltdown of the thread -- and I predicted this one coming in the last thread."

Meltdown?

duck:

Cheers, brother.

Where did you get that big brain of yours, Krydor?

You know, the one that can insert entire belief systems between the lines written by others.

You need to get out more. And remind me not to link again to the Liberal Party of Canada website - there are documented anti-Semites contributing to that party and that by default, means Ignatieff is a Nazi.

I do despair at the stupidity of people, sometimes. It's just not that often that they go to so much trouble to put it on display.

Personally, I too fear and loathe creationists what with all the Christians beheading non-believers, stoning their women and dancing in the streets shouting "God is great!" every time a Christian creationist blows up a daycare. Oh wait. Never mind.

Johnson does have the irritating habit of flaming and even banning commenters who even mildly disagree with him. The results are that the threads tend to be homogenized and boring, where once they were disparate and lively. I much prefer the discussions, say, here.

This tendency to control his comment threads is strangely at odds with his willingness to reject reflexive support of traditional conservative doctrine. He openly supports reason over superstition; he rightly chastises those who reflexively and predictably vilify Obama -- often the same people who reacted with outrage when the left reflexively vilified Bush. This speaks to an open mind. Mindless partisanship is one of the lowest forms of stupidity, and Johnson seems to be able to reject it.

So it's odd that somebody who clearly values free thinking is compelled to control his commenters the way he does. Too bad. I still pop by LGF sometimes, but I usually come here afterwards.

So it's odd that somebody who clearly values free thinking is compelled to control his commenters the way he does. Too bad. I still pop by LGF sometimes, but I usually come here afterwards.

It does intrigue me as a "bannee" but we all have our quirks. I have a brother-in-law whom I've long described to his face as the most devout and proselytizing athiest I've ever met. I sense that as part of his whole "creationist" obsession (I think that's fair), and I certainly understand his extreme concern at being connected with anything Nazi or racist.

In any case, had Kate posted her most recent link to Blackfive above* in the LGF post where I was banned, she inevitably would have been banned too.

*The tests for our President continue and I now have multiple confirmations saying that the initial set of rules that Obama put on the Navy forbid any active attempts to rescue the hostage and only after they requested he reinstate their authority to act if the hostage was in imminent danger did he do so.

I find it amusing when the left can't debate or rebut or justify their loopy logic they envoke the ole "Affiliation with Neo Nazis" thang. Check out the local liberal loon from Tarrana who appears to Link Ezra allegedly with Stormfront. Too funny, LGF feel off the cliff of commonsense a year ago, he sees Nazis everywhere. The fact is Political Islam and Neo Nazis are united, remember Calgary hatefest rally, but the left point the finger towards us and for some reason the MSM eats the propaganda like popcorn.

Canadian Infidel, thanks for posting that link to LGF 2.

takes awhile to get going but interesting.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,865,The-Human-Body-as-an-Evolutionary-Patchwork,Alan-Walker-Princetonedu

Atlanticjim - Well, it's his blog and you know how much he loves being called Chuck, for starters. So, right off that was mighty friendly of you. Maybe you should try calling the proprietor here by a less than friendly short form of her name, one that you know she dislikes and see how Kate responds.

Set you free - Cheers backatcha!

i've said in the past that we will have to fight our own to win the war against islam.

Gates of Vienna has a bit on LGF
As longtime readers know, we normally avoid posting about LGF’s gradual retreat from any association with most anti-jihad bloggers and writers. Tundra Tabloids has been following this meme, and has created an amusing graphic showing a bus and all the people that Charles Johnson has thrown under it. KGS recently ran out of room and had to expand the picture to add the latest victims.
http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/

The same Gates of Vienna that hosts, Fjordman and other nazi sympathizers and apologists? So what is it? The enemy of my enemy and all that? Some enemies I wouldn't be caught dead associating with and those who apologize for Vlaam Belang are among them. See dizzy's post above. Spencer is either one of them or too pig headed and proud to admit that he was taken in by them and finds that he needs to explain and tolerate their positions. IMO, Charles Johnson quite properly, upon finding out their true colours, threw them under the bus, as you say. Me? I deleted Gates of Vienna and kept LGF.

"Atlanticjim - Well, it's his blog and you know how much he loves being called Chuck, for starters...."

Posted by: ducktrapper at April 14, 2009 3:46 PM

I did? Wow, and here is me being the last to know I knew!

If calling him Chuck counts as a meltdown, then his skin must be thinner than rice paper.

And in the future there ducky ol chap, how's about you speak for you and I will speak for me.

K?

Funny, you read all the posts by Creationists here whinging about Charles Johnson's alleged vendetta against Christianity, and you'd get the impression that his blog has completely abandoned the anti-jihad battlefield. Not so, of course, there are frequent sarcastic posts about "Our Friends the Saudis" and the "Religion of Peace."

People tend to forget that LGF has never promoted itself as a conservative or "right wing" blog. It's labeled on the masthead as an "anti-idiotarian" blog. Since conservatives in general tend not to be idiots, they may find a great deal of congruence between their own beliefs and CJ's anti-idiotarian positions. But if conservatives happen to embrace an idiocy of their own, such as Young-Earth Creationism, or the nonsense about measles shots causing autism, then they suddenly find themselves on the receiving end of the anti-idiotarian fire. And they don't like that. And then they whinge about LGF having departed from some sort of conservative orthodoxy; that the blog has abandoned them. Suddenly, it's all about them, and their particular pet idiocy, and all the other spheres where there was congruence between their position and that of the blog host are swept away in an orgy of self-pity.

It's not a phenomenon unique to LGF; in fact it's not even unique to the Internet in general. You can see it in real-life relationships, where some people will abandon a friendship rather than question their own prejudices.

Bottom line: if you, or I for that matter, want a blog that agrees 100% with our own values and beliefs, we will have to start our own.

CJ started a war of words with Barron at GoV .... long time ago.. over the fact that he posted reports about the connection of some right wing European (Vlars Belang??sp??) party members to movements that were "Labelled" fascist. Which in Europeon terms is anything that is NOT outright socialist.
As stupid act of mindless spite over nothing more than observing what was going on.

Since then .. over two years ago ... I've bothered with LGF exactly twice.

As for GoV they have stood by their principles as far as I can tell... and I review their material at least once a week.

Aside from some commenters there who are clearly nuts what have they done wrong?

IMO ... nothing except to challenge Charles Johnson in his attempt to create a blanket smear of their efforts and their character.

CJ is an ego out of control and on the far side of unhinged.

I still go there for the Link Viewer and the music videos.

The reason most "moderate" run-of-the-mill "average" citizens in the West are whistling past the graveyard about the mortal threat Islam poses to western civilization in what can only be described as an almost conscious, willful, suicidally naive fashion, is that they full well realize the sisyphusian efforts involved. And after half a century of the constant drumbeat of multi-culti propaganda through the MSM, academia and Hollywood they no longer have the psychic energy with which to gird their loins for what common sense tells them is the supreme effort ahead that will be required.

Much easier to elect the head-in-sand approach. That way you can't see them coming. "Ignorance is bliss."--until the blade falls.

Just a quick litmus test for us fans of free speech: are we prepared to have our kids taught that there is an alternative view of how everything came into being, called "Intelligent Design" and let them make their own minds up after begin rpesented with the arguments for and against? Or do we prefer that our schools indoctrinate more little robots, obedient to the correct way of thinking?

I mean, if ID is so silly, shouldn't it be exposed to debate in the very place we are trying to encourage free thinking and enquiry: our schools?

That tack got me banned at LGF, but not before I'd had a chance to give CJ and some of his minions a darned good verbal bollocking. I guess he was itching to ban me, and I'm surprised it took him that long, seeing what he's done to others. But I got hte shotgun blast in before he took me down, so he's getting a bit slow I guess?

I might jump in here and say that as far as Fjordman, GoV, et al., are concerned, once again their critics seem to want to shoot the messenger of dire tidings. I first stumbled upon Fjordman in 2004 when he had his own blog and was one of the few doing actual factual reporting on what was going on in Scandinavia. The attempts to blacktop people such as him and those who post at GoV has, to my mind, evolved from a reflexive distaste of principled opposition from the multi-culti crowd to a loosely organized/coordinated effort to stifle all voices of opposition to immigration and Islam. This trend has taken on new dimensions with the latest
Homeland Security report characterizing groups that oppose immigration (among other things) as right-wing "fringe" groups that are possibly "terrorist" in nature--to include states rights groups (which I guess would put the Gov of Texas and the Indiana Legislature on the terrorist watch list to name the latest people to publicly support devotion to the 10th Amendment of the US Constitution.)

What is now in evidence, it seems to me, is a full-court press by the left in the MSM, the left part of the blogosphere and academia, in conjunction with the Obama Administration and supporters in Congres--and ardently joined by Islamicists--to paint/smear/slime anyone on the right who questions either untrammeled immigration to western nations or the security threat posed by Islam as extreme racists on the fringe of society and politics, and as potential terrorists who must be shunned, watched and discredited as not worth listening to. In other words as people holding views so outside the mainstream of respectability as to not be allowed to be voiced--or at the very least severely limited/restricted if not outright censored.

Under the Obama Administration this effort is only going to intensify by giving the imprimatur of government authority to this movement via the DOJ, EEOC, Homeland Security, the FCC and other agencies able to bring regulatory/legal restrictions to bear.

"It's always darkest just before it turns totally black."

Addendum: "Dr. Sanity's" blog today has an excellent post on the psychological/philosophical effect of Post-modernism in providing a societal "gloss" which goes a long way to explain the mental processes involved in our suicidal cultural "group-think."

Before you call VB and Fjordmann 'Nazi sympathizers', stop and think - who else is vocal about ROP slowly but surely raising the sword that will chop off our heads. Certainly not you!

So gordin, how do you explain getting banned from LGF by mentioning this very post?

Because Charles is no longer a seeker of truth, but is now deeply into himself.

> Just a quick litmus test for us fans of free speech: are we prepared to have our kids taught that there is an alternative view of how everything came into being, called "Intelligent Design" and let them make their own minds up after begin rpesented with the arguments for and against?

That has nothing to do with free speech. I'm a fan of free speech and I'm all for your freedom to tell your kids, or anybody else who will listen, that the Universe was created out of sheer willpower at the whim of a Supreme Being. I wouldn't want to live in a country where you didn't have that freedom.

But as you're aware, this is not a free speech issue; rather, it's about religious fanatics trying to push their views onto kids, in school, in the guise of "intelligent design".

> Or do we prefer that our schools indoctrinate more little robots, obedient to the correct way of thinking?

If by "correct" you mean "true", then yes. Yes I do. Evolution is a fact of nature whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

> I mean, if ID is so silly, shouldn't it be exposed to debate in the very place we are trying to encourage free thinking and enquiry: our schools?

No, because it's not just silly; it's religious indoctrination dressed up as "alternative explanation". People who wish to present this thinking to their children are free to do so at home, and so they should be.

I'm all in favour of home schooling.

I'm surprised to learn that LGF bans so many people for some pretty innocuous opposition. How un-conservative. It just results in an echo chambers of dorky one liners.

Thats one of the things i appreciate about SDA, everybody can say what they want so long as the language doesn't get obscene. The varying points of view can get sifted pretty cleanly by the people here providing some good comedy. There are some text book trolls - but they get fried pretty fast.

And yeah, i dropped LGF primarily because of his silly fixation on Creationism vs Evolution. What a dopey distraction - who cares...

I have also stopped reading LGF. The Lizards are only allowed to agree with Charles in a very narrow opinion range. It is like he has completely lost it. He is so purist in his thinking that no one can live up to his standards.

Every day he bashes creationists, who are now apparently the world's greatest threat to mankind. It is disappointing to watch, so I don't any more.

Mambo, you commit the cardinal error of dressing up "the scientific paradigm as we currently know it" as if it were a religion in its own right. I am of the view that nothing is sacred, not even science, nor ID. Bu the way I am a trained scientist in a "hard" science area.

You wish to pretty much exterminate opposing explanations of what the current scientific community believes. These beliefs will change with time, as yet more evidence and contradiction comes in. That is the true way of knowledge. Also, it is bcoming increasingly clear that science today is becoming a branch of sciology in a most unprofessional way (think David Suzuki and other politicians masquerading as scientists).

Let our kids be exposed to alternatives. And if you'd deny them that in public schools, well then it is the best argument for home-schooling I've seen yet!

I might agree with you bcf ,if the proponents of creationism were not so dishonest in their presentation of their position. They understand that there is no scientific basis for what they are proposing so they try and dress it up as ID.

If creationism is what they believe to be the way of things then say that. Don't try and dress it up as Intelligent Design with a raft pseudo scientific garbage. Until they are honest enough to say exactly what it is that they are proposing then leave this garbage where it belongs and where I learned it and disgarded it 40 years ago, Sunday school.

> Mambo, you commit the cardinal error of dressing up "the scientific paradigm as we currently know it" as if it were a religion in its own right.

No, that's just what religious fanatics need to believe, as though it justifies their own faith.

> Bu the way I am a trained scientist in a "hard" science area.

Then you'll appreciate the value of "hard" evidence as a basis for testing and developing a theory; you'll further appreciate that since there is zero evidence to support ID, it has no place whatsoever being discussed in a classroom.

> You wish to pretty much exterminate opposing explanations of what the current scientific community believes.

Well, I certainly don't want "opposing explanations" for which there is absolutely no evidence taught to children as though they have any merit whatsoever. If you were a "trained scientist" you'd feel the same way.

To: Atlantic Jimmy or is it Jimminy? Jimbo? Well alright then.

So sad, that you'd toss out 2000 years of thought and tradition because somehow there is only one way of knowing. Unfortunately you are bansihing metaphysics from the classroom, and as a hard scientist (pure mathematics) I know that much of "hard" science today is based on pre-supposing models to be true, and then hammering and contorting the evidence to fit the model. Like AGW.....

I for one want my kids exposed to where our society actually came from - Christian and Stoic philosophical traditions. Actually "hard" science has shaped very little of what the West once was. That is neother bad not good, but the way things turned out. I think you are tossing the baby out with the bath water, but hey, after what I've seen around Western education, my kids are on the fast track to home-schooling.

Bottom line, how does hammering creationists, of which I am NOT one, forward our focus on radical Islam and the WOT? It doesn't. It's nothing more than a distraction. In the case of LGF, that is an entertainment blog and the creationist theme was not entertaining.

I like Pam Geller. She's operating with her emotions leading the way but surfaces very interesting news items. Plus, one feels compelled to support a conservative Jew. Endangered species and all that.

iowavette: "how does hammering creationists, of which I am NOT one, forward our focus on radical Islam and the WOT? It doesn't. It's nothing more than a distraction. In the case of LGF, that is an entertainment blog and the creationist theme was not entertaining."

America and Canada were founded and built by creationists. Heck, Mackenzie-King was even into having seances with his dog. I therefore conclude that it was neither Islamists nor evolutionists who built the new world. So I will keep a little space in my life to hear what creationists have to say. It won't kill me to listen once in a while, regardless of my feelings about the subject. Just sayin, you know.

> So sad, that you'd toss out 2000 years of thought and tradition because somehow there is only one way of knowing.

Nice try. Nobody is suggesting that history be "tossed out." Only that religious creation myths not be taught as "alternative explanations" in a classroom setting.

What the hell, why not introduce Ptah into the curriculum as an "alternative explanation" of the origins of the Universe and humanity? For thousands of years, the most advanced civilization on Earth, at the time, accepted him as the Creator. Is it "sad" that we no longer think this? Does the length of time that people believed the myth make it "true"?

> Unfortunately you are bansihing metaphysics from the classroom...

No, just religious indoctrination, which is what ID is.

> I for one want my kids exposed to where our society actually came from - Christian and Stoic philosophical traditions.

Fair enough! Me too. That's what the study of history and philosophy is for. Not to be confused with physics, biology, anthropology, and chemistry.

I myself am glad that medicine is not based on "tradition," but on "what works", so that I don't have to go for bloodletting when I have a flu, and that schizophrenics are no longer deemed to be "possessed" and treated with incense and chants.

You don't get it Mambo. Because where the F**K do you think all our laws, customs, why even the scientific "method" hail from, ??? Do some basic research before you jump into the lake with the big boys, dude...

BTW Mambo, the Catholic Church withstood the onslaught of Islam, and beat it back. I got bad news for you, chum. There is no victory over Islamic fascism to be had in state-enforced atheism. Post Christian Europe will be Islamic, not secualr atheist. No secualr atheist society has survived very long in all of history... And the Chinese are not secular - they have all kinds of mystical beliefs you'd dismiss as "religion"...

So I want my kids to know something about who we as humanity believe God to be (whatever form he/she/it) is believed to take, and that that belief has formed a greatd deal of the "rational" method that survived the Dark Ages. That belongs in metaphysics, NOT history.