Oh man, I heard him say that yesterday. First time I've listened in ages. It was SWEET.

I very much doubt Bary knows how to change a tire, and furthermore I bet he's proud of that.

Bary's not much with the manual labor, I'm thinking. Kinda like John F-in' Kerry, but without the Dickie's jacket.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20080608ObamaFlatTire.jpg

with barrys chicago training,taking one off real fast might be as far as it goes.

RACIST!!!!

Will Wagoner prove to be the modern inCARnation of John Galt? Time will tell.....

even tho Rush stated GMC should have gone chapter 11 he couldn't bring himself to unequivocally say it's time to gut the fat cat unions....

.....i wonder who will be first to baldly state the obvious ?

Well, as they say, 'only if it wants to change'.
(old psychologist joke. Sorry.)

Interestingly enough, the question that I always ask myself about a co-worker or boss is whether, if he were a mechanic, I would trust him to replace the brake pads on my car. The answer for most of management is a resounding "No".

Kinda like girlie-man Stephane Dion not even having a drivers licence??

"I am Rush Limbaugh, America's Truth Detector, America's Doctor of Democracy, a general all-round good guy"

I am, not stirred enough said, Canada's Bullshit Detector. Limbaugh is the biggest bullshit artist on the airwaves.

First of all Wagoner was not fired he was asked to step down so that a rescue plan could move forward. Wagoner perpetrated the biggest and longest paper loss cover up in the business history of the modern world. He has been replaced by the COO of GM until a replacement can be found.

Limbaugh and rightards taken in by him would like to see Wagoner continue as CEO. This is pure insanity.

No, imbecile. We'd like to see GM die the death it richly deserves, instead of becoming some kind of fascist state-run bollocks making politically designed golf carts. Bad ones too.

Personally I'd like to see you grow a brain sometime soon, stirred. It'd be like a miracle.

NSE wrote; "First of all Wagoner was not fired he was asked to step down so that a rescue plan could move forward."

Hmmmm, I may be slow and from the south, but how is that not the same as being fired ?

You know eventually, you are gona run out of excuses for this guy.
,

I guess everybody should be just like you hey Kathy... Like Obama only because he is black... RACIST HYPOCRITE!

(Wagoner was not fired he was asked to step down)

I appreciate comments like that; it eases my concern that the opposing viewpoints of someone such as NSE may have some sort of rational analysis going on that i have failed to appreciate. (Hey, it could happen!)
It is fun to watch the backfilling and justifying. Too bad the stakes are so high.

So they're only going to replace Wagoner huh? That's like when John Roth got replaced by his CFO (forget the fool's name).

The only way out of this is through bankruptcy. The entire firm needs to be cleansed and what they certainly do not need is Obama and a bunch of economists setting the new firm's (if there is one) long term objectives.

So they're only going to replace Wagoner huh? That's like when John Roth got replaced by his CFO (forget the fool's name).

The only way out of this is through bankruptcy. The entire firm needs to be cleansed and what they certainly do not need is Obama and a bunch of economists setting the new firm's (if there is one) long term objectives.

With the Clintons hiding in the woodworks, maybe GM is going to be forced into bankruptcy and then sold to Chinese interests. What better way to get their foot firmly planted in the market?

The first order of business for GM's new owner should be to appoint a commitee to investigate why black cars have so many more problems than other color cars.

"Henderson said GM doesn't want to use the bankruptcy protection route to restructure, but he acknowledges that path is "certainly more probable" now.*"

O's appointee is preparing the way for bankruptcy.

O's legerdemain is a humongous money-laundering scheme using taxpayers' money.

O's fascist/corporate State picks up speed.

"GM unsure on more CAW concessions: CEO"
(cbc)

"we started with bank deposits, money markets, auto warranties, and tomorrow it's toasters."

If only TOTUS could guarentee 1st round draft picks in the NFL. Then I'd be impressed.

The last century has been a constant fight against ascendant collectivism; that war is in danger of being lost because so many people are asleep at the switch. It's obvious that a significant number of Americans have now forgotten, after years of prosperity and freedom, that everything about their society is the result of America resisting, against the odds, the communist-style policies of so much of the rest of the world.

Mark Steyn wrote today, "Most Americans don't yet grasp the scale of the Obama project. The naysayers complain, oh, it's another Jimmy Carter, or it's the new New Deal, or it's LBJ's Great Society...You should be so lucky. Forget these parochial nickel'n'dime comparisons. It's all those multiplied a gazillionfold and nuclearized and Europeanized, which is less dramatic but ultimately more lethal."

Re Limbaugh, he's entirely right about the media being asleep at the switch, too, at a critical time. A huge techtonic shift is happening, something monumentally damaging and dangerous, and Alison Smith of the CBC, for example, treats Obama like he's just another manifestation of nominal, pitty-pat partisan politics. He's not.

Interesting times. Obama is the most dangerous man in generations, and yet even here at Kate's we see commenters quipping away, missing the point.

It will be interesting to see how Obama will be stopped. Americans are going to have to wake up, and if they do, hopefully it will be soon. The path he's taking America down has little to do, at this point, with old-fashioned partisan politics.

RACIST? No, racist would be, "Does anybody think Obama knows how to steal hubcaps?"

The US federal government is going to guarantee the warranty of GM and Chrysler. They are going to guarantee the losers.

What about those that are successful? Nothing? No guarantee?

It used to be that success and profitability were the incentives for hard work and productivity. Now Big O has a developed a new societal norm. Lazy overpaid under productive union guys are now the poster boys for the American dream. Well, its sure to turn into a horrible nightmare.

How'd you like to be sitting there today with a lot full of brand new GM vehicles, each one of them eating money in interest? Not to mention a bunch of salesmen playing fiddly winks in their offices because there's no customers?

I bet the owners of every GM dealership in the country are having kittens today. The shock will have worn off enough for them to realize they are now government employees.

RACIST?? I know it's Kathy, but it would be the typical lefty's response. My question would be is it racists to claim Obama learned to steal tires in Chicago, or racist to assume that only African Americans (or whatever the p.c. term of the month is) steal tires??

"First of all Wagoner was not fired he was asked to step down"

There is a big difference people! When you get fired, your boss says "your fired", then you have to pack up your things and leave your office, you don't have to go home, your boss says, but you can't stay here.

When you are "asks to step down", your boss says "please leave" then you have to pack your things, and leave the office.

It is a huge difference people! Huge!

Strange times ,strange events, unless you are a lefty of course then all is normal and well.

Lefties: You hated Bush ,which I understand, but this is crazy, when are you going to wake up and admit your guy is a dud.

Ford had the Edsel
GM has the Obama.

phantom - no, they aren't government employees.
They are government prisoners. Without any protection from contracts or other rules. Obama's New Society takes power away from financiers, manufacturers, industrialists and workers. That is, his New Society kicks out the middle class from any political and economic ..and legal..power.

Remember, government employees are unionized collectivist puppets. Protected, tenured for life, and unproductive of any wealth; all they do is move wealth around from site to site, taking their cut as they do so.

Unions have destroyed the productive capacity of industries like GM. Unions, which are parasites, have switched the focus of the industry from the production of consumer-desirable goods and services, to the benefits of the employees. Huge salaries, benefits, massive pensions, early retirement, double time, sick day benefits even when not taken..have all leeched out the profits of the industries.

Rather than enabling the industries to pay for research, new plant equipment, new technologies etc, the profits have all been moved to the benefits of this elite set of 'workers'. Result? The death of the industry for it cannot produce viable goods.

Obama's agenda - and it isn't simply his but is that of the hard core left in the Democratic Party - is to strip the middle class, the domain of the Republican Party - of any rights and powers.

Will this be successful? Obama's 'population', the ones that he uses as his voting bloc, are the unproductive members of society - the welfare, the non-working and the illegal immigrants..and be assured that the Democrats will get these illegals on the voters lists...and..the intelligentsia, the civil service, the academics, who are equally unproductive.

These are the people who are all susceptible to utopian rhetoric, to being fed misinformation which they don't know enough to criticize..; to being manipulated with emotions of fear and hope; and, to being manipulated with accusations of bias and racism. These are Obama's three strategies he uses to keep him in power.

Criticize him - and you'll be attacked by his team (as they do attack FOX and others); criticize him and you are dead in the Press Room (as Obama cut dead the NYTimes, and other newspapers that criticized him). And remember, Obama's Press Meetings are filled with followers and pre-selected questions. Nothing is ad hoc; because Obama can't answer analytic questions.

At the moment, the reaction is verbal; it's stunned surprise and you can read and hear the shocked reactions. But, it still hasn't 'hit' a lot of people..exactly how far Obama and his group are moving. The Tea Parties, the rejection..Obama will ignore them. Utterly ignore them. That is, he'll ignore the people, the ordinary man on the street who rejects him, while his team will smear the MSM who reject him.

The question is - can the fictional world of academia, where you can retitle a 'terrorist action' into a 'man-caused disaster'..can this fictional world become the real world of everyday America? Will Americans accept such fiction?

At some time, I think that people are going to have to take Obama to the Supreme Court. Sounds insane but, if he's ignoring the Constitution, he's going to have to be reminded of it.

I posted on the G&M yesterday that O knows what a lug nut is cuz he keeps hiring them but does he know how to tighten one.

Does Obama know how to change a tire?
Probably not, but he can hope for change.

If that doesn't work -- hope harder!

Where I grew up, everyone learned early on how to change a tire, start a fire, make a decent cup of coffee (without a $300 coffee maker) and a lot of other routine skills. Nowadays it seems that learning to kick around a spherical ball is the only thing that matters. Maybe we should go back to requiring everyone to take several hours of archery practice on the longbow. That seems to be where our society is headed.

First of all Wagoner was not fired he was asked to step down so that a rescue plan could move forward.

To comment on that is just too easy.

BTW, fat cat union employees represent 15% of the cost of your car. I think the other devil really lies in 0% financing. Do you really think GM, Chrysler & Ford weren't liable to pay the interest charges? (which BTW amount to $1000's per year & the finance companies are independent of the manufacturing arms) What we're seeing here is the fruit of 0% financing sales gimmick, a 14 year old tree that has finally blossomed.

ET, I'd make a funny comment, but reading your comment and EBD's above, it actually isn't funny.

How about the suppliers? That's going to be interesting, eh? GM leaned on their suppliers hard, they were infamous for it. But that's going to be -nothing- compared to Government Motors. They probably won't even be given the opportunity to turn down contracts, just get taken over in turn.

ET, I wouldn't put much hope in the Supreme Court. Obama's going to pack it in the next couple years, just as ours was packed by the Liberals.

Either the Republicans win HUGE in 2010, or there's going to be full on fascism south of the border.

Time to start beefing up the Canadian Forces? We -are- sitting on more oil than Saudi Arabia, y'know.

bear - the Unions, which are parasites, have destroyed GM. Why? Because the unions focus on the workers not the product. The union agenda is to get as many workers in its 'nest' as possible, and then, feed off them. The way to feed off them is to increase their wages, benefits etc, so the dues could increase. But this focus on industries working only for the workers/unions..rather than the industry working to make products and services..is economically disastrous.

For example,

Because of unions, GM was unable to fire unproductive and incompetent workers. Unionized employees are 'there for life' no matter how unreliable, incompetent, unqualified.

Because of unions, the assembly was inefficient and costly, for unions required such extreme job classifications that you needed ten people to do the job two could readily do. Ten people versus two. Think about that.

Because of unions - you couldn't replace workers with robots, which are cheaper and more efficient. In fact, you can't get rid of workers except by retirement - and the pensions are enormous..remember, the wages are at least 72 per hour.

It isn't simply the wages which are the problem. It's wages, plus inability to reduce numbers of workers, plus health care, vacations, sick days, and pensions, pensions, pensions etc. Health care costs are at least 1,600 per vehicle.

And what about the infamous Oklahoma Plant, which GM tried to close in 2006 but the UAW contract meant that the 2,400 workers continued to receive full pay and benefits for the next two years as they 'attend classes or 'volunteer in the community'.

Two years pay for not working. Tell me, what industry can afford this? And why should it? Again, the unions did this; they switched the focus from the product to the worker; all profits went to the worker rather than the product. Result? No ability to make products...

Toyota makes a profit of at least 2,000 per car while GM makes a LOSS of 1,200 per car. GM, which is unionized, has collapsed under the weight of the Union Parasite, the UAW.

And they called George Bush a Fascist!

When will the people wake up to what Ogabe is doing to the USA?

"I'm deeply reassured that the largest company in America is owned by a guy with the vast private sector experience of Barack Obama."

I was watching when Krauthammer delivered that line with a straight face. It was a thing of beauty. Pity none of the "O's" followers will ever get it.

ET:

Because of unions, the assembly was inefficient and costly, for unions required such extreme job classifications that you needed ten people to do the job two could readily do. Ten people versus two. Think about that.

Because of unions - you couldn't replace workers with robots, which are cheaper and more efficient. In fact, you can't get rid of workers except by retirement - and the pensions are enormous..remember, the wages are at least 72 per hour.

Honestly, I am SO tired of these canards being tossed around. From the Automotive News, May 2005:
General Motors' Oshawa, Ontario, No. 1 plant passed Nissan Motor Co.'s Altima line in Smyrna, Tenn., as the most efficient assembly plant in North America, using 15.85 labor hours per vehicle. The Oshawa No. 1 plant produces the Chevrolet Impala and Monte Carlo cars.

From Motor Authority, June 2008:
The latest report from influential analytical firm Harbour Consulting-Oliver Wyman has found that Chrysler’s Supplier Park plant in Toledo, Ohio, is the most efficient vehicle assembly plant in North America. Not only that, the Harbour Report also found that Chrysler’s overall efficiency and productivity was equal with that of Toyota.

The Supplier Park plant manufactures Jeep Wranglers and only needs 13.57 labor hours per vehicle. However, not all credit can go to Chrysler because the plant is actually micromanaged by a number of different firms. Kuka Group is used to manage the body shop, while Magna Steyr manages the paint shop and Hyundai Mobis looks over the chassis assemblies.

The next-closest assembly plant was General Motors' Oshawa No. 1 plant in Ontario, Canada. The plant used 15.18 labor hours per vehicle to build Chevrolet Impala sedans.

Chrysler showed the biggest improvement of all carmakers, cutting its total manufacturing labor hours per vehicle by 7.7% to 30.37 on average, the same number recorded by Toyota. However, Toyota's number did slip compared with last year’s result. It needed 2.5% more hours to produce a vehicle this year than it did last year.

Ford improved its total manufacturing productivity by 3.7% to 33.88 labor hours per vehicle, while GM's total improved 0.2% to 32.29 hours.

So how, exactly, are they using 10 people to do the work of two, or tremendously less efficient than the Japanese transplants, when the difference in labour time is on average 3 hours per car? Please stop posting these ridiculous and untrue assertions.

I pointed this out yesterday: GM's demise (and all of Detroit's) started with the 1970 strike. GM feared they would be subject to an anti-trust suit as they had 50% of the US market, so they caved on higher retiree benefits, and most important, the "30 and out" principal. Since the UAW uses a "pattern" contract approach, Ford and Chrysler had to follow suit. This meant a young man, starting out of high school at 18, could retire at 48 with an indexed pension and health benefits. Since life expectancy has increased dramatically since 1970, that young man could conceivably draw pension benefits for 30 years - exactly as many years as he worked!

Of course Toyota, Nissan, and others don't have these costs - they haven't been in business long enough in North America to have a substantial number of US workers drawing pensions. As Mark Steyn wrote (I don't have a direct quotation) GM, Chrysler, and Ford have been turned into virtual senior citizen homes with small automotive subsidiaries.

The real cause of this, as always, is government. Without the threat of an antitrust suit, GM might have stood up to the UAW a little longer, and settled for something less punitive. But at the time, Japanese manufacturers and the OPEC oil shocks were not on the horizon, gas lines were a distant memory from WWII, and GM thought they would maintain their dominant position indefinitely. Hindsight is always 20/20, but I defy anyone to tell me that they predicted all these things in 1970.

Absolutely incredible - unadulterated socialism in the USA. You know you have a socialist government when...the Presidents asks a CEO of a private company to step down (euphemism for fired). Why didn't he ask the CEO's of AIG and its subsidiaries to step down? Hmm, wonder if it has something to do with the $103, 000. + campaign contribution? He gives banks money but forces private companies to merge with an Italian (Fiat) company. The Dictator is choosing which companies he will allow to survive. The day has arrived - the US is officially a socialist and fascist country.

Word is out that BAMBAM is already readying FEMA camps for the rioters.
Remember his core support is unproductive and when the welfare gravy train hesitates....THEY WILL RIOT.
The Roman Emperors were very skilled at manipulating the mob....Obama's control slips when the bread and circuses fails.
We are certainly descending into interesting times.....firearms and ammo are becoming a scarce commodity........there are a lot of folks afraid---very afraid.

Stepped down, laid off, fired, "taking one for the gipper" ..... they all mean the same thing - well, at least to those who chose not to get caught up in flowery proses like our friend Not Stirred.

I think hubcap stealing would have been beneath Obama. I mean, after all, how many do you have to steal in order to support a coke habit??

Here's my two cents from yesterday on the same topic. I put 'em online before reading anyone else's opinion.

http://thecanadiansentinel.blogspot.com/2009/03/obama-tightens-control-over-means-of.html

Probably exaggerated a little bit, but, hey, the other side does it all the time, so they can't complain if I do...

Tut, tut. President Obama does not steal hubcaps.

He delegates that sort of thing.

I forgot to add one other point:

Obama's ultimatum that Chrysler make a deal with Fiat makes me itch to play poker with him. What does he think Fiat's going to do? If they have any brains - and that's the land of Machiavelli they're from - they'll let the 30 days expire, let Chrysler go into bankruptcy, and then go cherry pick the parts they want in a fire sale. Obama's idiocy has guaranteed that Chrysler is done.

Too bad; our family made a lot of great trips in our Chrysler minivans.

kevinb - your statistics hide reality and are irrelevant.

Labour hours per car is totally irrelevant. What matters is the NUMBER of workers being paid for those labour hours. If there are SIX workers, each putting in ten minutes, then, this is still ONE hour. And that's the problem - the employee numbers at these unionized plants, where the only way to get rid of the worker's presence is by 'early retirement', and you yourself note the extreme costs to the company of such 'non-working workers'.

That is, you get rid of the physical body of the worker but you don't get rid of the financial cost of that worker. So, what does it matter how many hours it takes to complete the car, when the selling price of that car must cover those SIX ..or TEN workers, rather than the ONE worker..and also, all those non-working early retirees..who took early retirement..and didn't wait for 30 years.

And, as noted, the costs of employee wages, benefits, health care, pensions..all paid by the company not the worker - effectively meant that profits could not be returned to the product. They were returned to the worker.
The inability to fire workers, the necessity of paying people who didn't work (Oklahoma)..what company can bear these costs?

And no, the real cause is not the government. It's the unions. The parastic unions, which effectively transformed industrial production from its necessary focus on the product..to its focus on, and only on, the worker.

We consumers aren't purchasing the worker. We purchase the product. And if it costs too much because it has to cover all those unnecessary workers and their benefits; if it isn't a competitive product because profits aren't returned to making better products..then..we don't buy. What's the cause of this disaster? Unions - the parasites of the industrial world.

John agrees.
The USA is now a corporate-fascist State.

O is TOTUSPOGM.
...-

Meet the new president of General Motors
Globe and Mail ^ | March 31, 2009 | JOHN IBBITSON

By dismissing GM's restructuring plans, forcing the resignation of CEO Richard Wagoner and shuffling its board, while sending in advisers to work on restructuring, and guaranteeing its warranties, the Obama administration has effectively nationalized the nation's largest automobile maker."

"Conservatives are apoplectic. "These are no longer companies," stormed Americans for Limited Government. "These are now de facto agencies of the federal government.

"This is a new order not just for the American economy - but for the nation's entire system of government. The executive branch is taking upon itself seemingly limitless powers. ... This is war."

They have a point."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2219252/posts

Now that the big O has guaranteed the warranty work you'll see about ten the amount of work on each new vehicle and it will help keep the dealers afloat.

What are Constitutions or covenants to do with Obama? He is above such mundane realities with his. Super super duper awesome community organizer powers.
As he says: Yes we can. Meaning he can do whatever he wants since he's Black. With any criticism seen as racism. Who would call him out?
The race whores like Jesse Jackson, naw. The guilty feeling elitist white establishment. No way. This guy makes em feel like they have done penance. The MSM, hah, they worship his shadow.
The black community. Get real, remember Barry Marion as mayor of DC.
Folks this dude will just do what he pleases with not a peep from the peanut gallery. God save America.
JMO

ET, PLEASE don't get tunnel vision! The unions aren't the ONLY problem!

But, as usual when a group is threatened with the loss of it's lucrative entitlements (0% financing) they lash out. Get out your frickin' calculator and do some math. How much interest is there on a $50,000 loan over 60 months? Any clue? Cause when you buy that chariot @ 0% the finance company ISN'T being a nice guy, they're sending SOMEONE the bill!

It's easy to vilify the unions, lord knows on many levels they deserve it. BUT what role did the geniuses over in fleet that sell units below cost to get numbers up play? I've seen fleet units get absolutely trashed through abuse, we deny warranty and then the fleet dorks turn around and pay for it AFTER the dealer declines the warranty. This is not an isolated case, I can think of three cases at one dealer of the 200-300 in the last 6 months that cost GM $15,000 just because someone is a chickenshit @ GM Fleet. What about the recurring problems that engineers fail to fix from one model year to the next? (think cooler lines & heater resistor modules). Someone has to set these people down and FIRE THEM ALL!

The business model is screwed up completely. I've seen this elephant walk and it's doesn't want to change course.

Boycott Government Motors!

Buy Ford!

john begley at March 31, 2009 2:02 PM

The first was the CEO of Crysler Canada; and then various members of teh government. The CAW is not yet receiving the message.

ET:

From Hoover's Business Intelligence:

Employees 2008 (total - blue and white collar):

GM - 243,000
Toyota -316,000

Now, I'll admit that GM is supporting a lot of people through the so-called "jobs bank", and I've said that the after-effects of the 1970 UAW contract is the major problem facing all of the old Big 3. But I'll say it again: the thing that made GM give in to that contract was the threat of anti-trust, and that wasn't the unions' fault - it was people like the fatuous John Kenneth Galbraith (who as a Canadian, should have known better!) who were insisting that GM should be broken up.

GM has long been subject to threats and penalties under anti-trust. Pierre duPont, of the eponymous chemical firm, was selected as president of GM in 1915, and helped lead the firm into its former spot as the #1 automaker in the world, was forced to resign in 1957 (along with other members of the duPont family on the board), and the duPont firm was forced to divest itself of its huge (23%) stake of GM in 1961. Presidential loser and scrambled egghead Estes Kefauver led a number of anti-trust "investigations" targeting the US steel and automotive industries in the 1950's. In the 60's, the US DOJ filed an antitrust action against GM for monopoly actions in their diesel locomotive division. In 1962, GM was brought to court for limiting distribution; in 1966, it lost the case, and was enjoined from refusing sales to discount auto houses.

Given that history, it's no wonder GM was scared of another antitrust case if it had tried to break the UAW. It's hard to blame the union for getting every thing it could get in the circumstances; as I noted earlier, the US auto industry seemed supreme and invulnerable to challenge. I don't support the armed strikebreaking activities used in the US in the early 20th century, but I equally don't support the unarmed thuggery unions now exhibit on picket lines while gutless police and politicians look on. Again, I blame government, not the unions, for the problems.

Oh, and just for the icing on the cake: in 2007, GM and Chrysler looked at merging, a move that might have helped both companies survive. But the talks didn't go anywhere because of, to a large part, threats of - you guessed it - antitrust actions.

I don't really know if Americans will "wake up" -- maybe a vast majority of them already have, but are afraid to do something about it; everybody feels as though they have too much to loose perhaps.

I really am beginning to doubt that the Republicans will sweep the '10 or '12 elections, or, even if they did, that it would help much.

As for America turning fascist -- the heart of the people themselves, no, a thousand times no -- a vast, overwhelming majority of Americans would never willingly support fascism/totalitarianism.. But the keyword is "willingly"; Americans are completely susceptible into being conned into fascism, because they could never fathom such a thing happening here or they themselves accepting it. We've been on the road to fascism since FDR, and maybe that road is merely coming to the final stages of completion with Obama. There's a line from Norman Mailer's "The Naked and the Dead": "American is going to absorb that [facist] dream...When you've created power, materials, armies, they don't wither away of theri won accord...Your men of power in America...are becoming conscious of their real aims for the first time in our history." That line really has been sticking in my mind a lot lately -- not a fan of Mailer persay, but I thin there's some truth to this.

Interesting perspective, KevinB

bear - my point with the unions with regard to your comment about the failure to fix problems is that the profits aren't returned to the research and development staff to fix those problems. The money goes to maintain the regular workers.

kevinb - I don't see that monopolies enable industries to deal with over-employment, unproductive workers and high benefits costs.

I certainly don't support monopolies as they are economically unhealthy; therefore, I support the anti-trust laws.

Essentially you are saying, if I understand you correctly, that a monopoly enables an industry to reject or counter a union. I don't see that at all.

A union can bring a monopoly to its knees by its strikes and its 'work to rule' and so on and it can do this faster and easier than in a competitive environment when both workers and consumers can move to another producer.

After all, the TTC, the Toronto Transit Corporation union holds ALL Toronto citizens hostage when it goes on strike; there's no alternative to the TTC and therefore, the union's power is supreme.

You say it's hard to blame the union for getting everything it could get. I find it very easy to blame the union for changing the FOCUS of, and the PURPOSE of an industry, from the product to the worker. An industry is not supposed to exist to pay its workers; an industry is supposed to exist to manufacture products to sell.

The unions have, every one of them, and every time, refocused the purpose of an industry, of a corporation, of a government bureaucracy from making goods, from manufacturing products, from providing services....to ONE focus - the expanding comfort and well-being of the employees of that industry, that corporation, that bureaucracy.

I think it will not be long b4 people will be longing for the days when "unions" were all they had to complain about.

The real issue is that the US has a bonified sociopath for a leader and to make matters worse he is a fascist with socialist plans for that country. Never trust a leader who does not place his hand over his heart when the national anthem is being played...better yet, do not elect a president who is not a US born citizen.

Lou Dobbs is gaining my respect. He is on CNN, but he actually questions Obama's actions-huge surprise coming from CNN. So far I have been impressed...I said so far, time will tell.

The US needs our prayers. Russia and China have recently stated they want a global currency.

ET, just so you understand the scheme a wee bit better. The Parts Distribution Centres are NOT unionized. Did you know that? Most people ASSUME that all blue collar GM people are union. That sir, is just ONE of the MANY things people don't know. I've dealt with GM for over 20 years and what I know you could fit in a thimble. What YOU know won't even begin to fill a pin head.

So heres a recap...

1. The unions are costly
2. GM Fleet is so chickenshit of the big leasco's they cave into ridiculous & expensive concessions.
3. GM Fleet would kill it's first born to claim highest sales.
4. The engineers are stubborn and don't admit to mistakes.
5. GM Sales pisses cash away by offering idiotic 0% financing.
6. While we're on the entitlement kick, heres another issue; in 1984 the standard warranty for all GM products EXCEPT fleet was 12 months / 20,000 km. Now, there's a BASE warranty of 36/60,000 + 8 years for converters & PCM's + 5/160,000 km (I think) on parts of the drivetrain. If you think the Union costs money, just think of the warranty liabilty that's incurred just to say "Best warranty in the business"

I'll say it again. The elephant doesn't want to change, it wants US to change.

I worked for GM for 40 years as a salary employee.

Wagonner should have gone years ago. Every time he opened his mouth, Wall Steet sold the stock. Obama made the right decision for all the wrong reasons.

A big problem with GM has always been it's muti-layered management. Hard decisions are always subverted, changed, or ignored by each layer looking after themselves. It is only in the last couple of years that GM trimmed out the fat.

Philosophically, GM has always been a very conservative company, not willing to take many risks. When you sell 50% of the full size pickup, for example, you don't like to upset the customer base with radical changes. People expect a Silverado to be a Silverado, just like F-150 owners expect a F-150. When you build a new Ram or Tundra, you can take risks because the probability of attracting new customers is far greater than upsetting your previous owners.

Structurally, GM was hampered with the wrong products at the wrong time, and an inability to change quickly. Dropping a product line and bringing a new one on takes at least two years and if the public taste changes within that decision loop, you always have wrong product for sale.

During the 80's and 90's, truck demand was growing at a fast pace. In 1980, 2 cars sold for every truck. By 1995, car and truck sales were even. Yet GM, remaining conservative and safe, never got beyond a 60%/40% car/truck mix. In point of fact, GM could never build enough trucks to satisfy public demand, and ended up with too many cars nobody wanted.

The demand for trucks was still outpacing cars in 2007. Then a couple of things happened. in early 2008 gas prices jumped, and people stopped buying big vehicles (SUVs). Then the summer of 2008, the housing bubble burst and homeowners and contractors stopped buying trucks (Pickups). Then in fall 2008 the banking bubble burst and folks stopped buying cars and trucks, period. Here is a challenge: stop building half of your production without hurting anyone, oh, and in the process, try not to trim the Ontario GDP by more than 30%.

Wagonner should have gone years ago. But Obama Motors will be a regulatory disaster. He can back all the warranties he wants, but his new Green designers, his new Union production managers, and his carbon trading sales department will kill the new car business dead, Toyota and Honda included.

Welcome to the new Cuba.

KevinB

your "angle" sheds new lite on the problem, but ET is absolutely correct on her position re; unions. I had one of the big3 as a customer, known people in management of 2 of the big3, and know many workers in all of the big3, and productivity , output per wage dollar spent, is out of whack big time. You have to do the analysis differently than what has been done to date by damn near everyone. This also applies to "quality", as you don't destroy and then rebuild reputations overnite, so when people talk quality comparisons, do so over the last 10 -15 years, and the true picture will become clear!!

I just did a little, informal survey at work, and nobody I talked to would buy a new GM or Chrysler vehicle now. Who will be the customer base for these clowns?

I wonder if people actually consider reliability when comaparing Toyota, GM and Dodge? When I've read consumer reports and lemon aid guide the Big 3's vehicles are usually far less reliable, probably meaning much more warranty repairs. Warranty repairs have to come out of somebody's pocket. Personally I buy Japanese for the reliability.

Bear, talking about the elephant not deviating from its course.

I've noticed something over the last few years. Everybody is nostalgic for American muscle cars. They are going for million dollar prices at auction.

Ford jumped on this hard, and released the new Mustang. Which is a real Mustang looks like one, goes like one. Too expensive for kids to buy though.

Chrysler woke up and smelled the coffee, releasing the 300, the new Charger (which I'm sorry, ain't no Dodge Charger) and -finally- the new Challenger. Which by all accounts doesn't suck, but its really not as cool as a real Challenger. For my money the '70 Challenger is the very definition of cool. All too expensive for kids to buy as well.

Where's GM? New Camaro costs $40K++, not released yet. Missed the boat, big time.

But the truth is, they -all- missed the boat. There is a thriving industry producing brand new 1969 Camaro bodies, Hemi Cudas, Chargers, Mustangs, Challengers, re-creating all these Detroit muscle cars, and the Big Three are -not- in it anywhere. All produced in China on new tooling. You can have a brand new 1969 Camaro, 'Cuda or whatever with the upgrades of your choice like suspension, aluminum engine, roll cage, brakes etc. for a price pretty competitive with a full dressed factory unit from the dealership. Or you can go nuts and spend $100k, fat wallets are always at risk in the car biz.

The Big Three could re-release their previous hits with minimal engineering upgrades and sell all they could make. Every gear head and magazine writer in the WORLD has been screaming this at them for nearly twenty years. Who's making that money now? Chicoms.

And -that- is why GM is begging for scraps from The Messiah. They are IDIOTS.

In MSN finance... Obama has decided bankruptcy is best for GM. I wish this IDIOT would stop making anouncements in the evening AFTER the markets have closed!

(Wagoner was not fired he was asked to step down)

Hmmm... I was asked to step down from a job once many years ago. Thought it meant I was fired. Didn't know I had a choice in the matter.

Posted by: dj at March 31, 2009 9:23 PM
> In MSN finance... Obama has decided
> bankruptcy is best for GM.

Sorry folks, Obama is right. GM is bleeding billions every quarter. Sad to say, the best option for GM US chapter 11 and hope to rise anew from the ashes. The only way GM and Chrysler can continue "as is" is by having the US and Canada keep throwing money at them. That is obviously *NOT* acceptable.

To have a hope of surviving, GM must chop off major segments of its dealer network as well as some product lines. You may not be aware of this, but thanks to extensive lobbying of US state legislatures by car-dealer associations, it's a helluva lot more difficult to "fire" a franchise than it is to fire even a UAW autoworker. There are 50 sets of laws GM has to deal with. In some states, it is flat out impossible to "fire" a franchise. They simply get their lawyer to send GM a letter demanding a pile of cash compensation. A million is the starting point. Example... in 2000, Oldsmobile was selling like 1% of US auto sales, and GM decided to shut down the brand. It took a billion dollars, and four years to settle with the dealers. That was in "good times" when they could switch some dealers to their other brands, and there weren't that many dealerships to begin with. Today, it would be horribly expensive to shut down Hummer, Saturn, and Pontiac. Those contracts can only be broken by Chapter 11.

I preface with "I don't like unions but" I've told more than one person (from a weird sort of sarcastic point of view)...

We have it all wrong here, we don't need to get the unions out of GM, we need to get the Unions INTO Toyota!

The 1st time I said that, everyone just roared. The only thing is, once full pension load kicks in at Towyota we won't need to install the union. The train wreck has left the station and in another 20 years we will see the carnage.

John, having been on the receiving side of GM decisions, trust me the dealer net was trying to warn you guys 20 years ago.

KevinB and the bear:

Don't waste your time trying to use FACTS when discussing matters with ET...the facts are whatever she decides they are.

ET, excellent posts as usual. One more point, late last year when GM‘s problems were becoming news, there were some stories on what GM supposedly owed the union, something like 12 billion. This was to have been due sometime this spring, March or April, can’t recall. I think it was something to do with the union’s contracts and their management of pensions and health care, stuff like that. Or has this already been resolved with the previous bailout?

Wagner was not fired because GM would have been on the hook for severance and pension worth over $20 million.

If the company declares bankruptcy, all pensions and severance would/could be gone in the flick of a pen.

Cheaper to keep Wagner at this point.