The Greeks, will be happy to put her thoughts right.

Hey, everyone makes mistakes, but with this new administration we're talking the fast and the furious.

What is sad is that with the cheap gifts, and the teleprObama interactions with the press, and gaffes here and there - it really cheapens the appearance of the US.

I remember talking to a provincial cabinet minister - it was shortly after the time the opposition party was running a leadership campaign. The government in power found a way to support the weakest opposition candidate. (Read $$). Once the person was successfully elevated to that position, all monetary support evaporated.

Politics is a dirty game. Did Obama's ascent go beyond mindless people hoping for change? Did some money somewhere outside the US realize that putting that guy in power would be an easy way to cripple the US?

Not impossible, and I don't believe in conspiracy theories; just worrisome scenarios.

Don't expect the journalistic whores to report anything negative about O ring and his administration. One has to remember they are covering their asses just as much as they are covering his.

I don't think that I'll hold my breath waiting for the MSM to put Hillary's goofs up in lights. And to think, they could have had Sarah!! Exactly what they need right now.

Americans invented democracy much the way that they single-handedly won WWs I and II. They do have an irritating propensity for self-aggrandization.

OK, I'll try again without recourse to my normal mode of expression.

Despite the fact that I am an unreconstructed RWDB, I regret to have to say that in this case she is correct.

Mark Steyn (!) defends Hillary (!!!):
In Defense of Hillary

I don't often come to Hillary's defense (Um, come to think of it, this is the first time) but this isn't the gaffe some want to make it to be.

All of Eastern Europe was under Soviet control until 1990. The fascist Franco held Spain until 1975. Germany and Italy weren't the bastions of freedom before 1945 and they took all of Western Europe into the darkness with them.

And the UK... Well, the throne was still pretty powerful when we left.

It's all going to end in tears for these Democretins.

FOX News certaintly reported Hillary's ignorant comments. But we all know that she won't be pilloried as was Sarah Palin.

Incredible. She obviously knows nothing of the Greeks and their city states, of Plato, of Aristotle. Nothing of that great document, the Magna Carta of 1215, which binds the Sovereign Will of the King to the rule of law. The 1264 Montfort parliament?

Did her studies not include Locke - a key force in the development of the US Constitution, who locates power in the rights of the people.

Oh, and apparently, Hillary's Russian translator goofed up on an inscription on a document. Ah well.

Meanwhile, the British are fuming over the mean-spirited and disrespectful treatment given to Brown by the Obamas. I heard one charming Democrat lady say that 'it was deserved; the British haven't been supporting us in Afghanistan'. Now wait a minute.

Courtesy isn't a matter of totting up a check sheet of 'Did this; Did not do this' and then, scrolling over to: Result: good gift/bad gift. Courtesy is due to the OFFICE and the office of the leader of one country must treat the leader of another country as an equal and with due respect.

The Obamas didn't do this; they treated the UK PM with disrespect. I'd say both Obamas are behind this. Obama - because he's a narcissist and can't handle anyone taking the spotlight from him; and he can't handle free-to-interact press conferences. Michelle Obama is, I'd guess, anti-British because they were a colonizing country..and her knowledge of history is probably as bad as Hillary's.

I can't think of any other reasons for such shabby behaviour on the part of the Obamas.

EJHill and others - I take your point - but I wonder whether such a comment was even necessary in the first place. It is self-aggrandizing, IMHO

ET, yeah, that comment about Afghanistan is funny - I think the British could be a lot less supportive all of a sudden should they choose to.

And again - this is a "I don't have to be nice to my friends, because I'm too busy getting my enemies to see how charming I am so I can get new friends" type of thing

Steyn is correct.

Vitruvius - nevertheless, I don't understand the point of the comment.

As it happens, the US -does- have the oldest democracy in Europe, other than Britain. It's not the oldest democracy in history by any means, just that most of the Euro democracies re-started after WWII.

Now this is the funny part. RUSH LIMBAUGH is the guy who's fond of pointing that out. Hillary should shoot that speech writer.

The United States of America is not a Democracy: it was founded as a Republic. Particularly, it is a federal constitutional republic.

This is even stated in the Pledge of Allegiance:

"...to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, One Nation..."

From: www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4080

"...So what's the difference between republican and democratic forms of government? John Adams captured the essence of the difference when he said, "You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe." Nothing in our Constitution suggests that government is a grantor of rights. Instead, government is a protector of rights.

In recognition that it's Congress that poses the greatest threat to our liberties, the framers used negative phrases against Congress throughout the Constitution such as: shall not abridge, infringe, deny, disparage, and shall not be violated, nor be denied. In a republican form of government, there is rule of law. All citizens, including government officials, are accountable to the same laws. Government power is limited and decentralized through a system of checks and balances. Government intervenes in civil society to protect its citizens against force and fraud but does not intervene in the cases of peaceable, voluntary exchange.

Contrast the framers' vision of a republic with that of a democracy. In a democracy, the majority rules either directly or through its elected representatives. As in a monarchy, the law is whatever the government determines it to be. Laws do not represent reason. They represent power. The restraint is upon the individual instead of government..."

The USA is not a Democracy. Well, at least, it was not founded as such.

"Steyn is correct."

I'm gonna agree.

But E.T., look at the Mark Steyn link posted by Dutch Canuck at 7:40. 2,400 years ago the Greeks invented democracy, and there's the Enlightenment and everything, but basically, in terms of sustained democracy, i.e. not re-writing the constitution every decade and having blood-soaked coups and so on, the Europeans (not counting the Brits of course) have sucked at it.
She may be graceless (she always was), but she's not wrong here.

Yeah, but Phantom has a point Zilla, the speech writer should be metaphorically shot.

Although the Swiss aren't members of the EU, they have been around for a while.

Was PM Harper on CNN again? It looks like Hillbilly's head is exploding.

"So I push the button here and the fireworks go off...just look over your right shoulder"

Of course, if you want to be pedantic, the oldest true democracies are in Australia, where women were allowed to vote before any other place in the known universe.

Erick Larson: "Did some money somewhere outside the US realize that putting that guy in power would be an easy way to cripple the US?"

That scenario is really not too far fetched. Bill's campaign was reported to have been bolstered by Chinese donations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_United_States_campaign_finance_controversy

Or how about this clip: "One wonders if the Mitrokhin archives mention Herbert Norman, our ambassador to Cairo who committed suicide in 1956 after then-external affairs Minister Mike Pearson assured the House of Commons that he, Norman, had never been a communist -- when in fact, he had been.

How about Pierre Trudeau's controversial trip to a Moscow economic conference after World War II as head of the Canadian delegation comprised of Communist party members? (Trudeau said he threw snowballs at Stalin's statue... in April!)"
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/99/10/CanadaCommies.html

Life is interesting, ain't it?
One must try to discount conspiracy theories, but the Russians must think they died and went to heaven after Hillary's visit.

Yeah, but the Swiss invented the cuckoo clock.

Is it just me or is giving gifts of large red buttons to a non allied nuclear rival inappropriate....or ominous.

Odd choice of gift.....also odd way to go about diplomacy, sorry, sorry, ulm sorry.

I guess my thought that maybe they might push foward with the missile defence was too clever by half....yup, I guess they really are out of it.

Welcome to Jimmy Carter 2.0 by the end of his term, actually about halfway through the Europeans were completely fed-up and exasperated.

I expect we will see something similar.

Of cours after a year or so Obama might wake up and put the adults in charge.

4 years to go. You are absolutely incorrect. We've been, in this blog, through this debate before.

A republic is the structure of the government; it's a particular structure without a monarchy, with several branches (executive, legislative, etc). A democracy is the process of operation of that government, i.e., how the govt is chosen (by elections; how decisions are made in the legislature (by majority vote). The USA is, structurally, a republic; this republic operates in a democratic mode/process.

The quote by John Adams doesn't point out any differences.

And since when is a democracy not operative within a rule of law? And who makes the laws? The legislature, i.e., the government. Laws most certainly represent reason - and as you point out, all citizens including government officials are accountable to the rule of law.

As for who becomes the government within an election, yes, it's the majority vote. That's what made Obama rather than McCain the president. And that's why the Senate is so desperate to get 60 votes for its measures - that's the majority vote.

By the way, it's normal to provide the link to your quotations.

The USA is both a republic and a democracy and was founded as both, since its inception.

As for Mark Steyn's addendum that the US is the most continuous democracy (well, apart from the others, such as Britain)..that's an addendum. Hillary didn't say that. And I'm not into guessing what people meant when they don't say what they want to mean..

ET -
> it's the majority vote.

No. It's the Electoral College.

> By the way, it's normal to provide the link to your quotations.

I did.

Otherwise, interesting response. But I live in a Republic, lower case democracy.

Yes, but imagine if Bush had said or done any of what's gone on in the past few weeks, in terms of appointees with tax problems, gaffes, and an idiot vice-president.

The late-night boys are still making Bush jokes, for mercy sake.

"But but... we're different."

As Krauthammer said the other day, I'm trying to develop a zen-like calm about it all, and even to quietly enjoy it.

Krauthammer is correct.

4 years to go. You live in a republic and a democracy. We in Canada live in a constitutional monarchy and a democracy.

As for the 'electoral college', the president is chosen by the majority of votes of this college. Again, majority vote; the fact that this is second level (i.e., delegated by population size) rather than direct, is not relevant.

Votes in the Senate and House are by majority.

Votes in the Supreme Court are by majority.

And all processes are also within the rule of law - and the law is developed by the legislature.

vitruvius - a zen-like calm is necessary to prevent one's head/heart from exploding. Either than, or the zen-calm is actually a state of stunned shock.

oldest constitutional republic too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino

must be the same speech writer that credited Detroit with the first automobile.

but why give the krauts or dagos any street creds when you ARE the Obama adminstration.

Actually, the Zen-Calm was a famous racing
sailboat that won a number of low-wind races.

Vitruvius is correct.

Boots is correct.

I have to side with Hillary on this one - though I rarely do. America is not only one of the world's oldest "constant" democracies it is also one of the world's most "mature" democracies.

What do I mean by that?

Its painfully obvious - only in such a mature democracy would you see a "Zero" like the big O elected to the most powerful position on earth.

Sorry about my last post. Seems I got in the way of a lovefest betwix Vit and Boots. Sounds alot like a cat food I used to buy.

Never mistake low-hanging rhetorical fruit for love.

> We in Canada live in a constitutional monarchy

Which made Obama's reception with the Right Honourable Michelle Jean, Governor General of Canada all the more fascinating, did it not?

> the fact that this is second level (i.e., delegated by population size)

Doesn't Canada have a larger, and long overdue issue to address with this, in the near term?

> Votes in the Senate and House are by majority.

Not always, not exactly. Exceptions include preventing a filibuster (60/100 required).

All of this means what?

Perhaps that things are more complicated than anyone with common sense would want.

God knows, there's plenty for us to fight for on our side of the border.

Also that just maybe, Canadians should start to clean up their own backyard? Eh?

Time for FDR to go on TV again and reassure the American people that Hillary is not under sniper fire at some Balkan airport. Gawd!

Too bad Condi's not still Secretary of State. They'd never have slipped any bad Russian past her.

4 years to go - sorry, I don't understand most of your comments.

What's your point about the Governor General and Obama?

What do you mean by a larger and overdue issue?

Are you saying that a vote in the Senate or House could succeed, even if the majority rejected it? And by majority, I do not mean the arithmetic majority but simply the fact that one side of the issue had more votes than the other side.

What are you talking about - cleaning up our own backyard? I was reacting to your original post that claimed, incorrectly, that the US was not a democracy. You didn't seem to understand the terms 'republic' and 'democracy'. They aren't exclusive. That's all I was talking about.

What's with the picture in the background?

"What's with the picture in the background?" Posted by: Shaken

The man pushed the button and it went off.

And at the same time a weird voice said:
"That was easy!"

Gunney99...

Peter Worthington outed Pierre on the snowball incident.

There was no snow in Moscow during that conference.

Peter had gotten a copy of a weather report.

Pierre wasn't happy with Peter.

" We helped Bill with this problem too.
Just hit the green button .The Fart Re-Director(Fred) will channel away all those brainfarts.
There, now look out the window toward the White House."

Keep it civil, ET.

US House/Senate votes can be obstructed with less than majority. Intricate rules of procedure go far beyond simple statements.

Simplify:

Canada:

* Monarch's Representative is appointed, NOT elected.

Implications for relations with Foreign Powers? Whom to relate with: GC? PM? (did you see Obama and GC's meeting? it was well covered here.)

* Non proportional representation in federal elections.

Vast implications for voters of "lesser" Provinces?

* Appointed (not elected) Senators.

Appointed politicians with agendas for life. Implications for everyone?

Canada = Democracy?

Overcharged and overstated. Yup - sounds like a Clinton to me!

ldd - that is the line of the week/month/etc!!

Thanks, couldn't resist.
And we have one of those too.

How come no one thinks Obamba is pimpin out Hillary like a five dolla hooka at these international conferences? I would think that as a pseudo woman she should be almost insulted that she never seems to be considered the object of anyone’s desires (not even Jeffry Dalmer types).

Hell you could probably find some crazy internet sex site dedicated to Rosanne Barr if you cared to look – but Hillary? Zip nada………………………..She genuinely is some kind of David Ike lizard thing…………Just sayin anyway.

Maybe she was distracted by all the sniper fire.

Dean Acheson is rolling over in his grave.

When democracy starts isn't the point. The point is did Hillary know that various forms of democracy exist before the us' reublican version?

That someone in a democratically controlled state department made such high level gaffes - it is the party that boasts about how much more cosmopolitan and aware of the world it is than the provincialrepublicans - really is disturbing and goes a
Long way towards explaining how BO wrote that letter to the Russians and wasn't stopped.

I agree with the commenters who say she's not really wrong. The American 220-year record of uninterrupted democracy is, AFAIK, unmatched by anything in continental Europe except possibly for Switzerland. What I wonder about is, basically, what on earth would she gain by saying something like that? Isn't the Secretary of State supposed to be a sort of uber-diplomat? The Obama show really is looking like a major train wreck.

You may remember a film - starring, I believe, Meryl Streep and Albert Brooks - in which, upon death, selections were made from videotapes of one's entire life, and offered as evidence for or against transfer to Nirvana (or something like it).

I suspect that if we could view the entire lives of say ... George Washington, or Abe Lincoln, or even Socrates or St. Peter, we'd find plenty of "gaffes".

They're fun, but in the end they don't matter very much.

The character of society does matter, especially for those bringing children into it, and it is best defined by its choice of leaders.

Happily, North America remains closely divided in its notion of worthy leadership, and therein lies what hope there is for the future.

The resistance to the intrusion of an oppressive State is not a new thing, it's been going on over most of the world for most of history.

But, in the same sense that it's foolish to expect the State to take care of you, it's foolish to expect others to resist the State in your behalf.

It's up to you.

"Isn't the Secretary of State supposed to be a sort of uber-diplomat?"

Hillary Clinton's basic claim to fame is this: she is the wife of a former president.

In this sense, her political skills are essentially Argentinian in nature.

When I'm feeling particularly cynical, I wonder to myself whether the Obamatistas made her Secretary of State deliberately, with the Machiavellian view that she might bumble around the world just enough to discredit herself in the eyes of the 2012 electorate.

The Greeks may have invented democracy, but the Americans invented the Easy button.

"That was лёгкий"

Looks like a run on training wheels for the White House for the next 4 yrs.

The saddest thing is that it couldn't have happened at a worse time.
But then, that is what makes history so interesting.

Vit is correct.
Except about the 8 greatest cars of all time. heh.

That picture in the background is the future of your 'republic/democracy'.

ET, 4Yrs... if your votes do happen to elect whom you think you want in office, by some stroke of luck, amazing how they eventually kowtow to elitist policy, isn't it? Here's a suggestion: Take a Rothschild out for drinks, and get him drunk. Then, ask him about majority rule.

The majority doesn't rule. Never has, never will. This empire will go down just like all the rest.

four years to go - could you explain how I am being 'uncivil'?

I'm not crticizing the US governmental structure which I think is superior to the Canadian. I was criticizing your incorrect definitions of 'republic' and 'democracy' which led to you conclude that the US wasn't a democracy.

Again, democracy is the process of coming to decisions, and simply means that a vote is taken and the winning vote is accepted. This has nothing to do with how the membership of the voting body is constituted.

A republic or constitutional monarchy is the structure, not the process, of the government. There can be numerous levels of this government. They can be, in themselves, appointees or elected; they can be subject to a vetting process of the elected body (as in the US) or not (as in Canada)..and so on.

In all non-dictatorship cases, a governmental structure operates according to Rules, as outlined in a constitution and a body of law.

The GG or Queen has no legislative authority, therefore, a visiting leader can't interact with the GG/Queen except in a symbolic manner. Our Senate is, indeed, a disgrace. Appointments to legislative positions rather than elections is a choice, and both procedures have their benefits and problems.

Again, what's your point? My posts haven't been to compare the US/Canadian structures but to point out that your definitions of republic and democracy were inaccurate. That's all.

State Dept. scores an 'own goal'!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2200351/posts
"Mr. President, Sir; GE's on the phone, something about a bailout..."

Folks seem to misunderstand what is going on. Big Owe has put "experienced people" like Hill the Pill in the show windows for now to reassure and lower the temperature. One by one as things go south they will be burdened fairly or unfairly with failure and sent packing. The sure sign that things are improving as far as he is concerned will be wholesale replacement of them by his loyalists. Then things will really get interesting.

In its first 2 months, by my count, the Obama government has insulted Pakistan, India, Poland, Czechoslovakia,UK,EU, and most of the Arab countires. Fortunately he's no George Bush, or he would have the whole world angry with him.

"which has been around a lot longer than European democracy"

How do you date a country? Why not use it's current constitution? By that measure the United States dates back to 1789. Netherlands 1848, Germany 1949, France 1958, and Greece 1975. These are the ones I know off the top of my head.

Is there a single European country whose current incarnation is older than the United States?

I always get annoyed when I hear americans say that they are the "birthplace of democracy"

Funny how it took Hillary to make others finally call them on it.

Well at least the US has been the worlds greatest champion of democracy .... up till now.

Not that the Jillbilly would give a crap.

The Highwayman said: "This empire will go down just like all the rest."

Difference being, this one will be going down -with you in it- dumbass. So you might want to give some thought to helping steer away from the icebergs, and basically do something other than complain about the frickin' wine list.