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January 18, 2009

Poll: Public Opinion Shifts Towards Gestapo

The editors of today's New York Times are transported back to '43.

h/t Stephen M.

Posted by Kate at January 18, 2009 9:39 AM
Comments

History repeats itself. I bet there is not a newspaper of the that time period that didn't carry such news articles.

It was the left worldwide and their love for the nazi's then. It is the left now also, but their love is for the islamic terrorist.

Definition of a lefty: one who is envious of success, pride, and incapable of grasping the concept of logic.


Posted by: Honey Pot at January 18, 2009 10:03 AM

Sorry folks! While no one would be surprised if this were an actual image of a NYT front page it is actually part of a satirical article published by "The Peoples Cube" blog.

I suppose the real point is that it would not be surprising if it were true.

Cheers

Posted by: Tom at January 18, 2009 10:08 AM

PS: The wording on the Banner gives it away as satire.

Cheers

Posted by: Tom at January 18, 2009 10:12 AM

The only thing that I see is a righteous hatred for violence, and a war-weary world calling for the end of war. I don't see any "antisemitism" in calling for Israel to back off, but that term seems to be the fashionable way of quelling any dissent toward a select few's agenda of annihilating the Palestinian "Moozelum" people, simply because they aren't KKKristian!

In an insanely politically-correct world, you don't speak your mind, you don't even think contrary to what the deluded masses think proper or you're a "Jew-hater" or "antisemitic" or some other lowlife that the self-righteous can feel good about themselves vilifying. Just like in old Salem, the witch hunters are out in full force, because they're too ignorant to know that there really is no conspiracy other than what has formulated in their own fevered imaginations.

There will always be people that hate Jews, and people that hate Muslims, and people that hate the government and right-wing blogs... the trick is setting a balance in an unbalanced world, and the Middle East is unbalanced. Some idiot challenged me that destroying half of the population is acceptable in terms of getting at the militants. His tiny mind could not conceive that being the very problem instigating this entire fiasco in the first place... that innocents were being harmed. No, the difference being that it's 'his' chosen martyrs, now, that are on the dealing end, and the true concept of justice is lost upon getting even.

And, still, it's the innocent that pay the price!

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 10:31 AM

There was never a better example of "fake but true." True, so true...

Posted by: Charles MacDonald at January 18, 2009 10:32 AM

Doesn't matter if it is satire, it is true. The world allowed Hitler to carry out the holocaust, and many on the left are hoping their jihadist buddies will finish them off

Posted by: Honey Pot at January 18, 2009 10:32 AM

"...a select few's agenda of annihilating the Palestinian "Moozelum" people, simply because they aren't KKKristian!"

Hypocritically and as usual with his type, this disturbed individual fancies himself a "Christian" writer on his blog.

I recommend not going there, he's just another leach attempting to up his traffic. Here's what he believes:

"This writer sees reality for what it is... that Zionism has always been the foremost concern of the world-elite, and the establishment of centralized world government in Israel is the primary purpose of the "Order of The Ages." Israel and it's people are the dupes of fanatical oligarchs, determined to overthrow Democracy in favor of something that they deem appropriate - such as world-wide enslavement of the masses, a goal that they have almost attained, already, through the practice of usury."

Posted by: irwin daisy at January 18, 2009 11:00 AM

The New York Times has been owned by a Jewish family (who, incidentally, lost many relatives in the holocaust) since 1896 and the scion of the family is the current publisher. They are the market leader in city with the most Jews in the world, NYC. And you...are suggesting they are antisemites.

No further comment necessary, other than I hope this little bit of good faith fact checking doesn't induce the usual conniption. If facts that are inconvenient to your narrative are unwelcome here, please state that clearly so there is no misunderstanding.

Posted by: Good Faith Fact Checker at January 18, 2009 11:04 AM

When I first encountered that on another blog, I actually thought it was the real thing. Wouldn't have shocked me.

Posted by: The Canadian Sentinel at January 18, 2009 11:04 AM

I am truly puzzled why the Leftists (ie unions) are so adamently anti-Israel. After all Engels and Marx were Jewish.

Is it that because of the Israel's ability to stand up on its own two feet means Jews are no longer considered a disadvantaged people whereas the Palestinians are a basketcase? Or is that the aspirations of the Left are manifest in the UN and 60 Muslim countries dictate the UN policy? Or simply because the US supports Israel?

Posted by: Earl the Pearl at January 18, 2009 11:10 AM

The substance of this parody is dead on, and Good Faith Fact Checker's comments are misplaced. The issue is not the whether of a newspaper owned by Jews in a Jewish market can or cannot be antisemitic, but rather whether NY Times slants its reportage in favor of Israel's opponents. This slant clearly exists, as it does in much of the MSM.

Posted by: Mark Jay at January 18, 2009 11:13 AM

The Times really did publish the Duranty propaganda the 1930's.

Posted by: ddt at January 18, 2009 11:14 AM

Good Faith Fact Checker, there's a lot you don't understand about Leftist folks of Jewish origin, just like you probably don't understand about various other groups who happen to be Leftist and demonstrate at least latent, perhaps unconscious, hostility towards their own origins.

You see, everyone who's a Leftist is, by definition, afflicted by Leftist Mental Disorder, and is prone to serious brainfarts, some of which are continuous.

You see, the self-loathing Noam Chomsky is of Jewish origin, and he's like the proverbial crossed fingers with Hamas/Hezbollah, and is anti-Israel. A shock, considering he has the intellectual ability to know better, particularly considering his origins. He is a prime example of what Leftist Mental Disorder does to people.

There are also Leftist Christians. Like the Clintons in the USA, like the Chretiens, Martins, the Clarks, et al, in Canada (they're all pro-abortion and pro-SSM, despite those things being verboten by Christianity).

So just because the folks controlling the NYT may be of Jewish origin, doesn't automatically mean that they're all that pro-Jewish (how do you explain the NYT's anti-Israel, latently anti-Jewish orientation in its reporting? It's possible that the owners of the paper are in denial or something... can happen to anyone, anyone at all). Same goes for the "Rabbi" who hugged the monstrously anti-Semitic Ahmadinejad at his Holocaust-denial conference.

There's also Americans who hate America, no doubt.

See what Leftist Mental Disorder does to people? It turns them into walking demonstrations of bizarre irony!

Posted by: The Canadian Sentinel at January 18, 2009 11:17 AM

That would be "in the 30's".

Posted by: ddt at January 18, 2009 11:18 AM

I don't think it's a valid analogy and therefore, it isn't a viable satire. After all, Israel isn't a ghetto and defining Israel as akin to the Warsaw Ghetto is, to say the least, quite a stretch.

Were Jews herded into Israel by an outside authoritative force that denied their right to live elsewhere in the area? Is smuggling of goods and supplies, often by children, the only way to live in Israel, as it was within the Warsaw ghetto? Did the Jews rise up in rebellion against these authorities that refused to allow them to leave? Are the Jews in Israel, under the rule of these Authorities, being shipped to concentration camps?

I think that comparing life in Israel to the experience of a ghetto and the Holocaust is totally invald. Is it an attempt to bring up the Holocaust to deflect criticism of Israeli politics?

Posted by: ET at January 18, 2009 11:43 AM

The banner at the top clearly says: “If today's New York Times editors were in charge in 1943 ..."

Satire, for sure.

Truth? Not so sure.

Posted by: set you free at January 18, 2009 11:47 AM

"I recommend not going there, he's just another leach attempting to up his traffic."

And who are you, irwin daisy, to be recommending anything? You a member of the thought police around here? Maybe you should just let others decide for themselves, before you start foaming at the mouth. You were sure quick to jump on me... you a closet member of the JDL by any chance?

I didn't see any rebuttal, just a fevered retaliatory diatribe, and a quote from my blog. But, thanks for the plug, anyway!

Just so you know, because you don't, I'm not politically-oriented. I've been vilified by the left AND the right, because I'm not into extremism and political-correctness. I am a Christian, not the Kristian FundaMENTAList type that espouses false theology based upon political expediency and pagan ideology. I follow the Christ, Who taught reason and restraint, not political-correctness and socialist-nationalist humanism.

My advice to you would be to calm down, take your meds, and maybe invest in one of those child's activity stations... you know, the ones they put in the baby's crib, with all of the dials and knobs and squeakers that so amuse small minds!

We'll all go out for coffee, now, and let you digest what my comment entailed. Toodles!

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 11:54 AM

Thanks for linking and stopping by. KGS Tundra Tabloids

Posted by: KGS at January 18, 2009 12:05 PM

Heh... sure provoked a lot of confusion and discussion, eh?

A lot of folks believe it's supposed to be for real.

For example:

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/canadiansentinel/8867810315394440854/

That fellow believed the satire for ten minutes (as compared to my half-minute) and found the actual front page from the date in question.

Posted by: The Canadian Sentinel at January 18, 2009 12:26 PM

Highway man – u talk of ‘ reason and restraint ‘ - if this is what you strive for why do u so liberally sprinkle your arguments with petty insults ? I see very little reason or restraint in your response to Irwin.

‘ KKKristians ‘...? What does this mean ? Really extreme. Puts you on the fringe.

Posted by: Agent Smith at January 18, 2009 12:27 PM

Hmm... it really puts stuff in perspective. Makes us ask whether the actual front pages we see on papers these days are the truth... or fiction. Clearly, it's a mixture of BOTH, in reality. That's the point, I think... the NYT, like the rest of the Big Media, is infamously a combination of facts and fictions. Especially when the topic turns to Israel-"Palestine"!

Let's look at TODAY'S NYT front page, just for perspective:

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/todayspaper/index.html

Click on the headline about the "ceasefire" and you'll see how the NYT treats the whole Mid-East issue today, obviously not really telling it quite as it is. Don't forget to click on the photos-slideshow link and see how the NYT paints the whole thing in favor of the "Palestinians" and fails to tell a photographic story about the hatefulness and blameworthiness of Hamas at all... at all! It clearly makes one think that Israel is simply bombing and killing for the hell of it, rather than in self-defence. No picutres of HAmas firing rockets at Israel, no pictures of the damage they do in Israel, no mention of the deaths and injuries they've caused in Israel.

So I believe the satire is perfectly valid, at least as far as the subtle lying and failure to tell the truth/whole truth/nothing but the truth... on the part of the NYT.

Posted by: The Canadian Sentinel at January 18, 2009 12:37 PM

Good Faith Fact Checker, being Jewish doesn't prohibit one from being anti-Israel, anti-capitalism, anti-religion, and undermining your own culture. It's not inconsistent with having very bad judgment. The Bolsheviks had a core of Jewish intellectuals that were more than happy to see both churches and synagogues destroyed. The Sulzberger family had no problem with Walter Duranty willfully falsifying Stalin's atrocities in the Ukraine. Your logic would imply that being American would prohibit one from being anti-American and we know that simply isn't true. There are some fighting with the terrorists.

The NYT's readership has been declining preciptiously since 2001, down 20%, while the NY Post has been gaining in that period:

http://geoff82.wordpress.com/2008/04/23/the-nyt-vs-the-ny-post/

I can't find the NYT's circulation breakdown for NYC only, keeping in mind that they are a national paper and the Post and Daily News aren't, but, I suspect they aren't the market leader in the area anymore. Their advertising fits with the upscale moneyed liberals in NYC which has become their narrowed niche there.

Pinch Sulzberger has run the NYT's brand into the ground. His shareholders are all the poorer for it. What once was considered the paper of record has turned into a partisan rag. The WSJ hasn't degraded itself in that manner and their circulation has been increasing even in these bad times, but, a Jason Blair wouldn't have been a good fit with them.

And, exactly what are the "facts" in your narrative?

Posted by: penny at January 18, 2009 12:50 PM

Agent Smith:

Believe me, I am pulling my punches!

And, if I'm on the fringe, then I'm happy to be there, rather than embroiled in the fanaticism of partisan politics. I've never responded to anyone but in kind, and you might check out irwin's comment to me a little closer. All I did was present an alternative view, and that's what I got for it. Cry me a river... besides, isn't the name of the game retaliation, these days, particularly in the Middle East?

Sorry, I know you're just asking an honest question. BTW, that term "KKKristian" is one that I have been branded with, myself, when I've attempted to contribute to other comments on other blogs. See, people are quick to label, these days, and don't really think before they do. I am neither Liberal or Conservative, I think for myself. I am apolitical, adhering only to truth... wherever it takes me. I am certainly not Fundamentalist Christian, either. I'd sooner be dead... because being dead is only the next worse thing!

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 12:53 PM

ET: I think you've misread the theme of the satire which was not a comparison of Israel to the Warsaw ghetto but rather a 'what if' retrospective look back at how a past event might have been portrayed using a modern liberal sensibility as reflected in the newspaper of record.

Don't you find yourself doing this from time to time? Wondering how on earth we would have won against Nazi Germany and Japan in WWII had we been so obsessed with the bogus concept of proportionality and so obsessed with civilian casualties.

That said, an analogy between Israel and the Warsaw ghetto may not be that much of a stretch if you toss the false marxist big lie narrative of the oppressed "Palestinian People" and see this conflict in its proper perspective, namely, the central front in the global jihad; if you look at the map and see that Israel faces not a poor downtrodden "Palestinian People" but about 300 million Arabs and Persians wanting it destroyed, and also consider how little suport it gets even from the West, which post 9/11, should be solidly with Israel.

Posted by: Me No Dhimmi at January 18, 2009 12:53 PM

sorry, me no dhimmi, but as you know, I don't agree with your merging of Islamic fascism with the I-P situation.

I do see the Palestinians as oppressed and don't understand why you call it a 'marxist lie'. What the heck does it have to do with Marxism???

I also don't agree that any judgment should be 'solidly with' or against Israel. Or any other country. That's a dogmatic ideological view, where you are for/against something without even examining its content. Rather like the Bloc, which said it would support the Coalition's budgets without reading them.

I think that we each have the capacity to reason and think and that our decisions for/against policies should be based on the content of those policies. That is, we have to examine each policy and evaluate it. Not just give the author of that policy our mechanical rubber stamp approval.

I think that proportionality IS a viable variable to examine in an interaction. That is, after all, a legal requirement. Does one execute a ten year old for stealing some bread - as was done in the 16th c or does one only take such action to a serial killer?

I've said that the only solution to preventing the Islamic fascist take-over of the I-P situation is to enable a gap to develop between the average palestinian and the radicals. The only way to develop the gap is to economically empower Palestinians. Israel's refusal to do this means that the gap narrows to nothing, and the violence continues.

As for Islamic fascism, I've outlined my views on this as well; the only strategy that will work in the long run is binary: military confrontation of facsist terrorism and, importantly, enabling democracy in the Arab/Persian states to empower the middle class - and reduce the power of the fascists.

You may not agree with these strategies.

Posted by: ET at January 18, 2009 1:24 PM

"That said, an analogy between Israel and the Warsaw ghetto may not be that much of a stretch if you toss the false marxist big lie narrative of the oppressed "Palestinian People" and see this conflict in its proper perspective, namely, the central front in the global jihad; if you look at the map and see that Israel faces not a poor downtrodden "Palestinian People" but about 300 million Arabs and Persians wanting it destroyed, and also consider how little suport it gets even from the West, which post 9/11, should be solidly with Israel."

It's not in the agenda of those that truly dictate world policy that the Jewish people be completely destroyed, but there is a movement to undermine any hope for peace between Muslims and Jews, and that movement foments unrest and discord through propaganda like that which is espoused here. The west has virtually no concept of what is really going on in Palestine, as I have tried (futilely, it would seem) to show with pictures and text.

The danger isn't from the "Moozelum hordes" but from religio-political oligarchs determined to establish their much-flaunted "New World Order." The term Zionist is not a reference to any Jew or Jews, it refers to a religio-political adherent of an oligarchical future world-state centered in Israel. These adherents are causing the unrest through false flag and other covert ops designed to keep the combatants on constant edge. 9/11, another Zionist covert op, is but one of many examples in history of using war as a means of procuring money, land, and oil, and whatever else is politically and geographically expedient.

"Political Zionism is an agency of Big Business. It is being used by Jewish and Christian financiers in this country and Great Britain, to make Jews believe that Palestine will be ruled by a descendant of King David who will ultimately rule the world. What delusion! It will lead to war between Arabs and Jews and eventually to war between Muslims and non-Muslims. That will be the turning point of history." (Henry H. Klein, "A Jew Warns Jews," 1947)

"There have of old been Jews of two descriptions, so different as to be like two different races. There were Jews who saw God and proclaimed His law, and those who worshiped the golden calf and yearned for the flesh-pots of Egypt; there were Jews who followed Jesus and those who crucified Him..." --Mme Z.A. Rogozin ("Russian Jews and Gentiles," 1881)

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 1:49 PM

I have read a certain amount of Nazi propaganda, which was skillful, evilly so; and as a matter of fact Goebbels did attempt to depict the Nazis as sensible, peace-loving people who were being thwarted by uncooperative, war-mongering Jews. That mock New York Times front page could easily have been written by him.

In fact, given the contacts of the Nazis with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, it is quite likely that current Hamas propaganda is derived from Goebbels.

Posted by: John Lewis at January 18, 2009 2:21 PM

Highwayman- I think you have trapped yourself within a Total Conspiracy Theory - a mindset that sees a single factor is the cause of most of the world's major problems. People do this all the time; some locate the cause as the USA. Or George Bush. Or Global Warming. Or Islam.

Fundamentalists all share a similar mindset; they insist that One Agent has the power to determine/cause almost all bad/good events in the world.

With you it seems to be Zionism as somehow an expression of Big Business - and you define it as a singular agential power of the world.

The world isn't as simple and linear as you and your conspiracy theory outlines. It's complex; that means that there's no singular Agent, no Power of Zionism-Big Business dictating to the world. It's much more humdrum and grassroots than that; it's complex. The world, economically and politically is a CAS, a complex adaptive system, and there are many, many interactive threads. We can't reduce it to one, even if such a reduction makes you comfortable with its simplicity.

Sorry, but I, for one, don't accept the Zionism and Big Business agenda for Israel. Or anywhere else for that matter.

Posted by: ET at January 18, 2009 2:34 PM

"The world isn't as simple and linear as you and your conspiracy theory outlines."

ET, it's a lot simpler than you think. Of course, complexity is by design, and society loves it, but it helps if one doesn't get oneself immersed in the superfluous detail of matters, even so-called "conspiracy theories". Even my quotes, over the years, from recognized authorities on the subject of the New World Order, have not swayed those determined not to believe. I have no illusions, ET. I fully expected the responses I've gotten, because I've gotten them for years. There are, however, some that appreciate and benefit from an alternative view, and it's those I do it for.

So you don't accept these truths? Fine. You learned them the same way you learned anything else... from the written word, and the testimony of others. There isn't anyone alive that hasn't had to learn from others, and take what they taught on faith, unless they were physically present to verify what was observed and being taught. Ninety-nine percent of what happens overseas is taken on faith to be truth. The media, however, doesn't always deal in truth, and only a complete moron thinks that governments deal in truth.

All I would ask of you and others here, then, is to not be quite so dogmatic about what you learn second and third-hand from less-than-reliable sources with agendas and priorities outside of the welfare of the Israelis and Palestinians, because those agendas exist whether you choose to accept it or not.

The day is coming when free speech will be gone, and you'd best appreciate what you have now while you have it... as nutty as you might think it is.

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 2:57 PM

highwayman - same to you; what you know is learned from others.

Now, how about going beyond what you've learned from others and applying some reasoning to it? And after all, a 'recognized authority' is not necessarily correct..remember all those authorities who declared that witches exist... and simply saying that they are such is a fallacious argument (appeal to authority).

For example, the world isn't complex 'by design' which suggests An Agential Designer. It's complex because that enables a LOT of different forms of matter to co-exist. Take a look at a molecule and its organization; that's not simple; it's complex with multiple links and different types of links, to other molecules. Take a look at a meadow, with its flowers, each plant a complex interactive organism, interacting with multiple other organisms, plants, insects, animals.

Society loves the complex? I'd say the opposite; most people prefer the simple reductionist explanations that reduce causality to one or two agents.

Your certainty that 'free speech' will be gone is unsubstantiated; I presume you are saying this as a matter of faith.

Posted by: ET at January 18, 2009 3:10 PM

We should be on the side of the Jews for no reason other than self preservation. The muzzies hate Christians almost as much as they hate Jews, and even if you don't consider yourself a christian, they do. Israel is the front line in the battle that we are all fighting. Anyone here who doesn't believe that is nothing more than a "useful idiot".

Posted by: minuteman at January 18, 2009 3:28 PM

I am with you on that minuteman. I see Israel as the frontline becween the islamic terrorist and us.

Only a complete fool would be cheering for the many islamic terrorist in their endeavour to wipe out the Jews.

I will just be able to sleep better when Israel destroys Iran.

Posted by: Honey Pot at January 18, 2009 3:49 PM

I guess, minuteman, that in your opinion, I'm a 'useful idiot'. I certainly don't agree that Israel is the 'front line' in the battle we are facing.

I presume you mean the battle against Islamic fascism. My view is that Islamic fascism is due to causes within the economic and political structure of the Arab/Persian ME states. This is the fact that these states retain a tribal political structure which is two class (one tribe in power; the others without power). What is needed in a large population and industrial economy is a three class system - which develops and empowers a middle class. The lack of this class is the cause of Islamic fascism.

Israel is most certainly not enabling the development of democracy (which is based around a middle class) in the ME. The primary nation that is doing that - is the USA.

Indeed, the way that Israel could help diffuse the Islamic fascist's use of Israel as a 'net' to entice Islamic radicals away from the Islamic states' internal troubles...would be to enable yet another Arab Muslim state to emerge as a democracy. That would be Palestine. The only way for this to happen, given that the other Arab States do NOT want Palestine to exist as a democratic state - is for Israel to help it do so by enabling both a Palestinian state, and enabling Palestine to set up a robust economy closely embedded with the economy of Israel. This, in itself, would be a broad and vital stand against Islamic fascism in the region. But since Israel won't do this - then, the constant repression of the Palestinian economy, the settlements, the border closings etc - all bring in yet more radicals to the fascist ideology.

honey pot - as for Israel destroying Iran, this is a 'moot' question. Certainly the Arab nations are quite worried about Iran's imperial ambitions - which include taking over these very same Arab states. I'm not sure how they would stand on this. On the one hand, such a war could be presented as 'against Islam'; in that case, the other Arab states might feel obliged to defend Iran. On the other hand, the image might be Iranian imperialism, and that's a different story. In that case, they might support Israel. The ME is a complex, complex arena. And now, there's Obama, who I think doesn't understand the role of democracy in the ME.

Posted by: ET at January 18, 2009 4:03 PM

I don't see any signs of a Palestinian democracy in the model of what we consider a democracy. I understand that Hamas was democratically elected. By that standard they are a democracy. They were elected on the platform of destroying Israel, which they are not capable of doing. With any luck Iraq will emerge as a democratic state. That was the aim of the evil president Bush, wasn't it?

Hamas had every opportunity to make Gaza into a proto democratic state, but chose not to. When the Israeli settlers left, they went out of they way to destroy all the infrastructure that was left behind and they have stent all the time since lobbing rockets at Israel. If they had been slightly less insane I am sure that They would have been able to work in Israel and cross the border freely like Israels neighbours always did until Israel was forced to build the security apparatus that they now have in place.

Posted by: minuteman at January 18, 2009 4:23 PM

Earl the Pearl said-"I am truly puzzled why the Leftists (ie unions) are so adamently anti-Israel. After all Engels and Marx were Jewish."

It has nothing to do with anti-semitism or their being Jewish. This is a freedom issue.

ALL leftists, unionists, and pretty much all modern liberals have a deep viscerial hatred of freedom.

Scratch any of them, and you'll find anti-Americanism, anti-capitalism, and pro-collectivist beliefs. Personal freedom, property rights, in fact any freedom to choose one's own path is anathema to their belief system.

This also explains their hatred of automobiles, and their attempts to curtail oil production and to increase taxes on gasoline, and to regulate the auto industry until the average citizen will not be able to afford to own and operate an automobile. This will remove the citizen's freedom to choose, where to live, where to shop, where to work.

Posted by: Ian Vaughan at January 18, 2009 4:45 PM

To Good Faith Fact Checker:

WHOOOOOOSHHHHH

That is the sound of satire sailing 35,000 feet over your head.

Posted by: KevinB at January 18, 2009 4:48 PM

minuteman - yes, enabling democracy in the Arab States was the specific agenda of Bush. I think it remains an act of far-seeing courage on his part.

As for Palestine, it certainly could be a democracy as could any population. The first step on that would be for Israel to recognize the viability of a Palestinian state - and that means getting out of the West Bank. Then, as the US did in Iraq, helping them set up a democracy in this sovereign state. That requires, of course, a viable economy. They can't have such in the West Bank, since they are not allowed access to irrigation water, the roads, nor entry to Israel.

Since Israel shut off the water, hydro of Gaza, and closed the border shortly after leaving Gaza, their economy based around growing of fruits/vegetables for export to Israel. No, Hamas did not destroy the greenhouses. About one quarter were dismantled by the settlers; one quarter were looted by Palestinians; the other 500, purchased via Bill Gates, were used as a greenhouse operation - until the water and hydro ceased and the border closed.

As for Hamas being elected democratically, yes, it was, but are you so certain that it was on the agenda of 'destroying Israel' or because Fatah was and is corrupt, while Hamas was deliberately working in Gaza supplying the social services, jobs, medical care etc that Fatah was not supplying? Hmmm?

As I've said before, a military reaction to militants doesn't always work; all it does is recruit more radicals into the movement. Instead, Israel, if it genuinely accepted a Palestinian state, and I claim that it doesn't want to do this, ought to try to widen the gap between the radicals and the ordinary individual in Palestine. You do this by enabling that individual to make a decent economic living. Not by disabling him from that - which is what Israel is doing...that will increase radicalism.

Posted by: ET at January 18, 2009 5:00 PM

"Now, how about going beyond what you've learned from others and applying some reasoning to it?"

I guess that's what I was trying to do. I realize I'm battling entrenched rhetoric, but I thought my ruminations might be mistaken for a half-assed attempt at reasoning. Oh, well.

"And after all, a 'recognized authority' is not necessarily correct.."

True... remember that the next time you listen to the nightly news, or your politicians. (Didn't I say that, already?)

"Society loves the complex? I'd say the opposite..."

Your own statements refute that. You just finished telling me that the world isn't a linear place. You seemed satisfied telling me, too.

This particular statement, though, is worrisome...

"I will just be able to sleep better when Israel destroys Iran."

Just sit back and mull THAT one over, for awhile! After all, what is everyone so scared of, here, but the supposed threat of the annihilation of a people... the Jewish people... and here we have someone preaching the very same thing, albeit to another group; which, of course, it happens to be fashionable now to hate!

Yowza! I've hit the mother lode of extremism, here!

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 5:05 PM

...the way that Israel could help diffuse the Islamic fascist's use of Israel as a 'net' to entice Islamic radicals away from the Islamic states' internal troubles...would be to enable yet another Arab Muslim state to emerge as a democracy. That would be Palestine.

No, ET, a democracy isn't what the Palestinians desire nor is it Israel's responsibility to make it happen for them. Iraq is the model for your paradigm. It was thoroughly defeated and has been physically occupied by us for the past 6 years. And, therein lies the difference which isn't to say that they won't screw up by reverting back to Arab tribalism and Islamic pathology when the last US soldier leaves. The Palestinians would ultimately be ahead if Israel pounded them into submission and occupied their sorry Muslim asses too, but, liberals and anti-Semites would go nuts. Look no farther than how Bush has been treated.

It's like the vicious pittbull that menaces a city park, the options are pretty obvious, kill it or stay out of the park. The irrational option would be reasoning with the dog.

If some of these homicidal scoundrels were wiped off of the face of the earth tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear nor linger one second on their issues. Only a misplaced liberal who is too stupid to realize that his margin of survival has been enhanced would.

Israel owes the Palestinians nothing but the full force of their military in destroying their bad behavior.

Posted by: penny at January 18, 2009 5:09 PM

"If some of these homicidal scoundrels were wiped off of the face of the earth tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear nor linger one second on their issues. Only a misplaced liberal who is too stupid to realize that his margin of survival has been enhanced would."

"Israel owes the Palestinians nothing but the full force of their military in destroying their bad behavior."

Well, I'm not a liberal, and I'm inclined to think you're half a bubble off plumb! You don't even realize what you just said, do you? You are so blinded by fear and hatred... you're worse than those that you imagine to be a threat! Cripes! This place is even scarier than the wildest liberal blog I've ever visited!

What if I were to tell you that I wished that people like you were wiped off the face of the Earth? Who do you think would be the worse in God's eyes... or would there be any difference?

You don't think you have a touch of the totalitarian in you?

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 5:21 PM

ET


""""but are you so certain that it was on the agenda of 'destroying Israel' or because Fatah was and is corrupt"""""


and we ALL know that Fatah is a ZIONIST creation which was lead by that Jewish fella, Arafat, until he died!!!

Posted by: GYM at January 18, 2009 5:22 PM

and we ALL know that Fatah is a ZIONIST creation which was lead by that Jewish fella, Arafat, until he died!!! -GYM

Actually, GYM, the PLO (Fatah) is a creation of the KGB, which also created a lot of socialist "liberation" movements worldwide.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=D162656E-9C26-4FF4-BE93-3C64CCC1FFCD

A bloody great read, that is.

Posted by: The Canadian Sentinel at January 18, 2009 5:59 PM

Oh, and ET... if I'm a conspiracy whacko, thanks... I'm in good company! (Well, SOME of it good!)

"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent." J.P. Warburg, international banker

"It is not my intention to doubt that the doctrine of the Illuminati and the principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more satisfied of this fact than I am.. The idea that I meant to convey, was, that I did not believe that the Lodges of Free Masons in this Country had, as Societies, endeavoured to propagate the diabolical tenets of the first, or pernicious principles of the latter (if they are susceptible of separation). That Individuals of them may have done it, or that the founder, or instrument employed to found, the Democratic Societies in the United States, may have had these objects; and actually had a separation of the People from their Government in view, is too evident to be questioned." George Washington, first American president

"The most wonderful thing of all is that the distinguished Lutheran and Calvinist theologians who belong to our order really believe that they see in it (Illuminati) the true and genuine sense of Christian Religion. Oh mortal man, is there anything you cannot be made to believe?" Adam Weishaupt, Jesuit agent, and author of the Communist Manifesto

"We have restricted credit, we have restricted opportunity, we have controlled development, and we have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world--no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men."

And...

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the U.S., in the field of commerce and manufacturing, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." Woodrow Wilson, American president

I could go on and on and on... but this will suffice...

"It is ironical that the only nation which affirmatively expresses a dependence upon and belief in Almighty God in its birth certificate, should now be in mortal combat for its very existence with a godless conspiracy intent upon conquering the world, and reverting human society to the hazards and indignities of the Dark Ages."

*Yawn*

No conspiracies in this world, eh?

Okay...

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 6:03 PM

Comments are being held for moderation, now, eh?

Yeah. Figures.

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 6:06 PM

You folks who are playing the Highwayman's cards are
being played for suckers. I knew this would happen with
the new blog award. Trust not the intentions of any run-on
newcomer. Trust must be earned.

Posted by: Vitruvius at January 18, 2009 7:36 PM

Vit you done went an' 'recked it. Hiwayman was just about to tell us all about them black helicopeters.

Posted by: Joe at January 18, 2009 8:22 PM

Sorry Joe, 'round these parts we don't take a fancy to dealin' from the
middle o' the deck & it don't matter non' if'n you were likin' the show.

Posted by: Vitruvius at January 18, 2009 8:30 PM

Joe...

How about I tell you where you can pick up a good spelling tutor? Nah... you probably can't read, either.

"Vit"...

You don't know squat. And, you never will.

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 8:31 PM

See what I mean? Once you expose them, they fumble
their phony dealing, and then everyone can see it.

Posted by: Vitruvius at January 18, 2009 8:37 PM

"Vit"...

If you devoted half of the time you expend being an amateur provocateur toward research and study, your wise mouth might actually have something interesting to say.

Taking shots at me won't disprove what I say, only make it all the more interesting to those with intelligence.

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 8:54 PM

When you make an argument worth countering, sir, I may or I may not do so, depending on my mood. Nevertheless, it remains the case that you parachuted into this community claiming the high moral ground and then you proceeded to spray insults around. That should have tipped everyone off, sadly, too often it doesn't. And you get off on that. We see it a lot in the psych ward. Yet it's too late, you're busted. We see that a lot too, in the vice squad.

Posted by: Vitruvius at January 18, 2009 9:09 PM

Highwayman, from one of the two(only) blog entries on your recently launched site:

"I was in the bath, one day, when I said to myself... "Highway... you've got to give up this blogging shit!" But, I just can't seem to quit. There are just too many people out there with the wrong idea of reality, and they need me!"

You've babbled all day here. I have no response to any of it, but, one small question: do you by any chance wear a caped costume with red vinyl boots? It's just this mental image that I have.

Please. For the sake of all that is orderly, reasonable and sane in this universe get back to attending to your blog. The people that need you will find you in time. Go now. Don't look back. We aren't worthy.

Posted by: penny at January 18, 2009 9:39 PM

You're throwing an awful lot of weight around, compadre... who made you the authority, here, or if you are some kind of authority, you're abusing it in the sense that you're making decisions for everyone else.

I don't know exactly what you want... I have provided quotes from famous persons, links... what is it you want? As for "parachuting" in here, my timing has nothing to do with this blog receiving any award. I have heard this blog promoted on a certain radio talk show, so I thought I'd check it out. Nothing nefarious, there.

I was engaged in debate, and I was not the first to throw out insults... that was the privilege of one of your other commenters. I countered with all civility, I thought, because I can go toe to toe with the best of them, son, believe me. I prefer not to, though.

If you're trying to intimidate me with some hint that you're a cop or other authority figure, save it, or run the risk of revealing how intolerant you and your fellow commenters portend not to be. I've done nothing wrong other than TRY to participate in an interactive forum.

If the site owner requests that I leave, fine, I'll go. But, no two-bit authority freak is going to tell me where I can go, what I can say, or when to go, savvy?

Now, you deal with that, son.

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 9:49 PM

It's too late, man, you blew your cover on my feint.
You can't take it back now: the cat is not rebaggable.

Posted by: Vitruvius at January 18, 2009 9:53 PM

Penny:

You joining the act, too?

Forgive my sorry attempt at humorous writing on MY blog. I guess that's not allowed in your universe.

No, I don't wear tights and boots... maybe I should, though.

BTW, that blog is a new one... I started a new one, recently. I've had a few blogs, some were well established with a fair patronage. I've written under other handles, too. I had intended to quit blogging, because there isn't much appreciation out there for esoteric knowledge. People seem to know it all, these days.

Of course you're worthy, dear. Don't deride yourself!

;-)

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 10:00 PM

There's no cover to blow... and I'm not leaving... son.

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 10:03 PM

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury: You have now seen the evidence clearly placed before you, and it is only you, dear readers, who can make the final judgement. Therefore, I rest my case. Besides, I've got less than an hour left to produce tonight's Small Dead Animals Late Nite Radio show, so I'd better get down on it.

Posted by: Vitruvius at January 18, 2009 10:11 PM

With a casual resort to silly insults I see highway as someone with an inflated sense of self importance that is easily pricked when challenged.

Your exchanges with ET showed some promise but your easy descent into ‘blog wars’ is immature. Make your case and defend it. Putdowns should at least be witty or entertaining and done with a light touch. Yours are just ham fisted.

Vit has earned his keep around here. You’re a newbie. Come back when you have more self control. Then we’ll see if you can play with the big dogs.

Posted by: Agent Smith at January 18, 2009 10:48 PM

"...the constant repression of the Palestinian economy, the settlements, the border closings etc - all bring in yet more radicals to the fascist ideology." - ET

And where are these radicals mysteriously appearing from? Iran? Iraq? Syria? And aren't they already part of the fascist ideology, otherwise known as Islam?

And isn't this what happened in Iraq, which you, ET, support as a correct action by George Bush?

"...while Hamas was deliberately working in Gaza supplying the social services, jobs, medical care etc that Fatah was not supplying? Hmmm?"

You mean the same Hamas that was using their fellow citizens, even children as human shields? The same Hamas that set up their rockets in residential apartment buildings, containing families? The same Hamas that stored their weapons in Mosques? That Hamas?

That's rich.

You might also have read the headlines on the mock front page. "...an over-reaction," "Jewish resistance shatters hopes for a peaceful final solution," etc. Exactly the same as todays Liberal headlines.

...........

Little wonder he calls himself 'The Highwayman.' Given how successfully he's hijacked the thread.

Posted by: irwin daisy at January 18, 2009 10:58 PM

"Then we’ll see if you can play with the big dogs."

The old rite of passage thingie, eh? *Chuckle*

Oh well... when in Rome...

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 18, 2009 11:05 PM

Aye, Irwin, still, it had the potential to become much worse if he hadn't been busted. Sorry for all the commotion resulting from the take-down, folks, as y'all know, I only do so when the danger triggers my range safety officer's sixth sense ;-)

Posted by: Vitruvius at January 18, 2009 11:09 PM

The Warsaw uprising would never have happened if they'd had proper gun control.

The advocates of gun control want it because it'll be helfpul in crushing dissent when they seize power. But I think we need our guns, just in case the government gets out of hand, like taking 50% of our incomes in taxes or something.

Posted by: nv53 at January 18, 2009 11:09 PM

It had to be done, Vitruvius.

Posted by: irwin daisy at January 18, 2009 11:14 PM

Just to note: In my previous post I put the word "satire" in braces before and after the first comment, with a slash before the word in the second instance, like it was a fake formatting request; the publishing software omitted them. No biggie, but I just want to make my intentions clear.

Posted by: nv53 at January 18, 2009 11:14 PM

"...the constant repression of the Palestinian economy, the settlements, the border closings etc - all bring in yet more radicals to the fascist ideology." - ET

When are the ETs of the world going to pass this wisdom on the Arabs?

how about something like - the constant lobbing of kassam rockets, the constant vilification of Jews, the random stabbings in the Old City, the random shootings of people driving, the suicide bombers, etc etc, all bring out the IDF.

The Arabs of Palestine have a state in Jordan (even if some people do not want to recognize that), and they could have had a second state when the two state solution was proposed in 1947 (you know, the one that Israel said yes to and the Arabs said no)

Posted by: ex-liberal at January 18, 2009 11:32 PM

You guys will be sure and tell me when those "big dogs" arrive, won't you? So far, all I've heard are yapping pups!

You need to spend a few years on American blogs... the tamest one of those make his place look pretty pale by comparison. That's where I cut my blogging teeth.

Anyway, I'm not here for a pissing contest... wouldn't be much of one, anyway, but did any of you heroes even look at my first comment, before the first jackass jumped me? I doubt it. I'll bet those images wouldn't even register with you warmongers, either! Like that windbag, Gormley, whose big mouth led me to this place, there are bloodthirsty morons here that cream over dead and dying Palestinians, mostly civilians and kids.

I know it's easy for you people here to live with what's going on over there, because it IS over there, and not in your back yards next to your two hybrids, boat, pool and deck, barbecue, and most of all YOUR youngsters! And with ol' Big Mouth spouting off all week on the virtues of totalitarianism, you must feel pretty damned good about yourselves!

I'll bet those dead soldiers coming home in boxes from Afghanistan get the juices going for ya, too... right, Mr. Range Safety Officer?

Good luck with the late night show... for bloodsucking vampires, I'm thinking?

Posted by: The Highwayman at January 19, 2009 1:30 AM

Hmmm, taking a look at some of the posts here, I really wonder if their's even a remote chance for peace anywhere on the planet. Does anyone really believe that Israel was formed in 1948 so that the Jews that used to live there could return to their homeland. The folks that had to leave lived there for a very long time and had a sun tan that the Zionists who are the now the majority will not develope for generations. They are of the Jewish faith, but come from diverse places on the planet. The first colonialists in Palestine were descendents of an ancient civilization near the Caucuses between the Caspian and Baltic seas. Needless to mention they were Caucasion and they began forming farming communities in Palestine early in the 20th century. This was a political movement by people of the jewish faith to form colonies in Palestine and this was realised when Israel was formed in 1948.

What does this have to do with anything? Well, for one, not many of the colonialists are Semetic. I suppose that what is going on here is somewhat comparable to what the US did to the American indians, but we didn't use bombs and cannons on them after we stole their best land and water and penned them up in a reservation, even if they shot a few arrows toward those of us that got too close to the fence.

Posted by: Geezerpower at January 19, 2009 3:03 AM

the jews had better ramp up and be prepared to kill a hell of a lot more people because there are about 2 billion who would like to see them all dead. all the words about who, what, when etc will not change this.

Posted by: old white guy at January 19, 2009 5:48 AM

Vit. It's called "Roadkill Diaries" so there has to be some truth in advertising. Don't feel bad, there is always the G&M for the nowayman.

Posted by: Speedy at January 19, 2009 7:20 AM

Geezerpower,

Another newbie, comes to give us all a history lesson.

Wrong.

In '48 around 6 - 700,000 Arabs were displaced from Palestine by the Arab armies who had unilaterally declared war on Israel, rather than settle for a two state solution. At the same time 800,000 Jews were violently kicked out of the surrounding Arab countries, who settled in Israel. The difference is, the Arabs were allowed to come back and reclaim their possessions, while the Jews were not. Their lands and belongings were seized, the value of which equals hundreds of billions in todays money.

And the whole situation is nothing like the indigenous Indian situation in the US.

Muslim/Arab armies stole all of these lands from the indigenous non-Arab people, by violent force - mass-murder, rape, pillage and the destruction of irreplaceable historical property. Whole cultures were wiped out, never to be seen again, in the years during and after Mohammad (c.700 AD)

Please don't come here and comment for the first time without having at least somewhat of an idea of history and what the ongoing conversation is about on this blog. It's insulting.

Posted by: irwin daisy at January 19, 2009 8:27 AM

A little more history from a newbie ...G:

LookLex / Encyclopaedia, an expansion of Encyclopaedia of the Orient:

The Ashkenazi communities were from the start of organized like small cities inside a Christian city. The Jews had their own laws, they had social contact only with each other, and they organized and armed themselves in order to protect their communities against villains and thieves.
In Poland the Jews often formed shtetls, small towns where they represented the majority of the inhabitants.
Already from the 11th century did the Ashkenazi scholars start to develop material that is still in use in Judaism today, like the Mahzor, a work that contained prayers by poets of Germany and France.
For the Ashkenazi Jews the studies of Hebrew, the Torah and the Talmud was more than just a way of understanding their religion, it was also a way of protecting themselves against the influence of the societies around them.
Ashkenazim and Sephardim came to develop different prayer liturgies, Torah services, Hebrew pronunciation and ways of life. The rituals of the Ashkenazi were of the Palestinian traditions. Ashkenazi and Sephardi tunes for both prayers and Torah reading are different. An Ashkenazi Torah lies flat while being read, while a Sephardi Torah stands up.
In order to decide upon Jewish law, there are different authorities. The Ashkenazim go by Rabbi Moses Isserles, who wrote a commentary on the Shulhan Arukh (by Rabbi Joseph Caro) citing Ashkenazi practice. There are differences in many aspects of Jewish law, from which laws women are exempt from to what food one is allowed to eat on Pesach.
But today, many of the distinctions between Ashkenazim and Sephardim have disappeared. In Israel as well as in other countries like USA, Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews live side by side, even if they generally have separate institutions.The language of the Ashkenazi Jews was Yiddish, a language close to German. In modern times, Yiddish is in danger of dying out.Today, about 10 million of the 13 million Jews in the world are Ashkenazi.

Posted by: Newbie at January 19, 2009 2:18 PM
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