Trying to understand the mindset of these Union Leaders is like trying to understand the thinking of the children described in the book "Lord Of The Flies".
These folks sit in thier meetings each trying to prove with rhetoric, which of them is the most militant. Each being very careful not to give any kind of hint at a different point of view less they be banished from the mob.
It's very sad because the beginings of the Labour movement are full of wonderful and legitimate stories of sacrifice for working people.
The very best workers were elected shop stewards and some went on to higher office. Democracy was the hallmark and the very best were elected.
No so today. Many Union representatives are appointed based on thier willingness to conform to the party line. Many shop stewards choose to stand in order to get out of work.
It's a ad state of affairs for Working People which reminds me of a cynical song which we hear more and more today;

"The working man can kiss mmy ass,
I've got a Union job at last".

We appear to have come to an age when workers need a Union to deal with employers and a second Union, to defend them from the Union!

This is what happens when you allow a bunch of terroists in Canada.....thanks to the Liberal government...let's hope Harper will close the doors and let normal people immagrate to this country. Do you ever think these people will be real Canadians? As for unions...the very word makes me sick and we are bailing these no good socialists out.... No way.

One of the signs held by the Hamas supporters (thanks, Kathy, for the YouTube video): "Stop the War on Gaza." My immediate thought was "Stop the Hamas War on Israel."

Those hooded dudes reminded me of the KKK.

Somewhere it was reported that 15,000 Palestinian supporters were at this rally. Somewhere else, someone who was there said more like 1500. What's the actual number? I rather doubt it was 15,000.

The problem with the inflated figures is that, in true bullying fashion, far too many people think that might makes right (including one of my parents, who made the comment that seeing as 500+ Palestinians have been killed to fewer than 50 Israelis, the Israelis must be the really bad guys -- I guess I got any logic I possess from my other parent ...).

The pro-Palestinian horde is playing on this might makes right meme: We have a bigger crowd, so obviously we make up the majority opinion in Canada (Jenny Peto, a member of the Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid: the Toronto demonstration will show "the Conservative government that its position on Israel's military operation in the Gaza Strip 'does not represent the majority of Canadians,'" http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/562219)

I'm clear that the silent majority of Canadians would be ABSOLUTELY APPALLED by much of what went on at the demonstration yesterday. And, can you imagine the reaction of the police and the CHRCs if the guy screaming "Allah Akbar" (Aloah Snackbar: Shaidle, LOL!!) and his minions who were telling the counter-protesters that Hamas was going to wipe them out were yelling "Praise Jesus Christ! We're going to wipe out all Hamas supporters!" with a few four-letter words thrown in? Do you think a few "Christian demonstrators" yelling such hatred would still be walking the streets? Do you think the police and the CHRCs would be saying, "Aw shucks. Their freedom of speech and religion are guaranteed by the Charter?" Not a chance. Christians have been persecuted and prosecuted by the HRCs for far less serious infractions.

Canadians had better wake up fast. And where the Hell was Moron Miller? The guy's AWOL whenever there's a disaster happening in Toronto. I wonder where he is this time? When Jane Creba was killed he was in Mexico. What's his destination of choice this year?

The unionists and other riff-raff that pour into the streets for these demonstrations makes it easy to identify the morally corrupt among us.

Hurling kindergarten insults, racial smears and screaming lies clearly indicates how deep into the pond scum some people need to devolve in order to bring some "meaning" to their pathetically empty, utterly useless lives.

We should feel sorry for these fools, these perfect examples of everything that can go wrong in human breeding, education and socialization.

Weep for these pathetic rejects from the human family, these biological defects, these mental midgets. They have failed, fallen and will never get up.

It is a terrible cross to have to carry for the rest of their empty lives.

I'd like to see the Islamowipes try to disrupt a Montreal Canadians hockey game while inside the arena, or a Tim Horton's drive through in the morning.

I just dropped in on Kinsella's blog. That flimp is talking about music, his pet fish, work - anything except the mob of ignorant, stupid flag burners that he and his ilk have let into this country.

I am curious too, Warren. When are you going to man up and stand by your principles? So this is Canada now - where ignorant mobs of dirty people call for the death of jews? Is your silence a case of you 'just following orders from your masters'?

So here we are folks. Same spot Germany was in back in the 30's. Anti-semite mobs, speech control and censorship, and the guys responsible as quiet as church mice. I think we need to have a chat Warren - or you need to talk about this. I don't like what I am seeing and if you force this new vision of Canada on me, I will resist it with everything at my disposal up to and including violence. I am not a racist or a nut, I am a father and a citizen in good standing with my community - and I don't like what I am seeing here. At all.

Thanks so much, bab.

Just to clarify, the video was shot by regular SDA commenter and unofficial video chronicler of the free speechers, Mississauga Matt

Leave Warren Kinsella alone. His cowardice is not his fault.

He was raised by a weak father.

Thankyou to Mississuaga Matt. Those people are very scary. If this is an example of what fills Canada's biggest city ,then no wonder Toronto has problems.When they are finished with Israel, are we next on their hate list? God help Canada...

It was nice to see many of Toronto's finest out there to keep the protesting wackos peaceful. Horses too. Nice. Too bad there wasn't a little ass kicking going on. I'd like to see those ass wipes go to Gaza and put themselves in the line of fire. They sure talk tough when there are no guns pointing at them.

It looks to me like Kinsella is a double-agent. Being a liberal, he is going to go where he believes the going is good. He is a true liberal, and if he thinks he can garner the terrorist-supporters vote, he will be marching along side the pro-terrorist, anti-semitic unions.

As for the Jew-hating terrorist supporting bastards we keep bringing into this country, never forget this is Canada. The left is disappearing as they watch you try and import your horrid barbaric culture to our country.

I don't think that boy's mamma was the sharpest tool in the shed either Kate.

Good lord.

Where is Barabra Hall and her army of investigators looking into the hatred sprewed toward Jews at this rally? Didn't she pass on Steyn because it was a book, but if it was a placard she would have been able to pursue it? How sad?

Maureen, this is the real stuff. You are not going to find the Kinsella's or Hall's of Canada speaking out about the real thing.

These anti-semitic terrorist supporters, aren't fooling.

If I were a Jew here in Canada, I would be boarding my windows and sleeping with my glock under my pillow.

The left anti-semitic terrorist supporters are compiling list of Jews and their supporters in Europe, you can bet your booties they are doing the same thing here in Canada.

Posted by: Kate at January 11, 2009 10:50 AM

"He was raised by a weak father."

You surely know where to thrust the dagger, Kate.

I wonder if he was with Kathy Shaidle at the barricades in Torornot yesterday, and if not why not?

Honeypot - you are right, but we have to use the 'weapons' we have been given. I have just sent an email to the Ontario Human Rights Commission, asking them what they intend to do about the level of hate expressed not only by individuals, but by organizations at these rallies. I fully expect them to do nothing, but we can overload their mailbox with requests. People, follow my lead. Although I did have to officially put the contact info into my address book before it would let me send it - I wonder if that is a filter to ensure the the commission doesn't have to deal with inquiries? I recommend that everyone send a complaint to Hall and company (if possible insert some of her own words into your email from the many press releases she has issued or letters to Macleans etc.) and remember to ask for a response to your email.

Thank you very much Kathy Shaidle for your great courage, your great soul. Aloha Snackbar: instant classic!
I can certainly see how this experiece would shake you to the core. Myself: I'd go beserk in that kind of gathering. I would lose it. I'd be in jail. Think me cowardly if you will, but that's the truth.

batb: Your logic-challenged parent: that hurts I'm sure: best stay out of all conversations on this subject -- maybe quietly pass on some antidotal information without comment. One website Myths and Facts, I find very good. Also, Dershowitz's The Case for Israel (he's an unaplologetic liberal with a razor-sharp mind -- and fair).

I've had to train myself to NOT discuss this subject with my two gifted daughters. I do, however, pass on some very carefully selected things as antidotes to what they're reading in the New York Times and The Guardian. I lost two 40+ year friendships over this issue.

I absolutely CANNOT get over the smug facial expressions --their evident sense of safety and their evident sense of impunity in spewing this vile and putrid hate.
It's the dirty 30s again, no question. Depressing.

God damit I'm angry. Reading Kathy FOF today my blood pressure went through the roof. It hit me like a ton of bricks that the Canada of my birth is no more thanks to that traitorous, treasonous bastard Turdeau and his commie/leftist friends.

I say it's time to fight back. Time to flood all politicians and MSM with pro Canada opinion. We can't let the muslims invaders and their socialist supporters take over this country which is happening while most Canadians sleep walk through their daily lives. I need to piss on turdeau's grave to vent my feelings.

1000 plus years of Muslim violence is enough, when I can live in Saudi Arabia as a Christian we'll open our boarders to more Muslim Immigrants. When they are done spewing hatred and bigotry towards the Jews who's next on their list of people to hate? They hate our culture and us infidels as much as the Jews yet our government and immigration minister ezpose our Jewish Canadians with Muslim hate unabated and unstoppable. It's a crime to quote the bible bot it's okay to tell a Jewish Child they are going to die?

If we don't put measures in place to protect Jews from Muslim hate we are no better than those that stood by and did nothing whilst the first Holocaust was devised.

Here's another picture of those hateful Judeophobes "demonstrating" their hatred and prejudice on the street:

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Holocaust_Denial.jpg

I don't see a lot of difference between that old picture and the newest ones.

The Nazis, the KKK, the Islamofascists, the "Progressives"... they're all cut from the same cloth, be the cloth in the final form of a Nazi uniform, a white robe with a pointy hood, a rainbow-colored t-shirt or a Yasser Arafatesque kaffiyeh. They're all the same!

The only haters we're seeing on the streets right now are "Progressives" and Islamofascists. Funny how they vastly outnumber their Teutonic-looking skinheaded Judeophobic komrades, isn't it? Now we know who else the state apparatus needs to marginalize to combat this terrible hatred, racism, etc.

Hey, Special K, get out of that boys' bathroom and start taking pictures of those real haters with your phone's camera and post it online to expose them and say, "Look, see? Web of hate in Canada! Let's fight these horrible haters with the Human Rights Commissions!" And Warrin' Man, get out of your ivory tower and counsel your useful idiots to throw pies at 'em and then get the video evidence of your incitement deleted from YouTube to try to hurt your legal opponents' case that they were only telling the truth!

Worse in London, where 20,000 terrorists and their communist supporters demolished businesses, like Starbucks, injured numerous cops and attempted to light Police vehicles on fire.

This situation, if allowed to continue, is headed towards a very violent ending.

It's time the Police did their job and upheld the law. Many of these vile creatures should be up on charges. It's morphed beyond hate speech, into death threats directed at children. This is how arrogant these foreign Islamic terrorists are, they fear nothing because the left and other anarchists support them.

Rightfully arrogant, hateful and violent, because they are an oppressed minority, my ass. This is Islam, in all it's blood lust and hate, now in our living room.

A question for Mississauga Matt:

Did you at any time feel physically threatened?

Isn't it nice that Warren Kinsella has nothing but profuse condemnation to utter on his blog about these hateful Jew-bashing bigots?

Warren Kinsella is a phony. He's no "human rights" crusader. Complete phony who, in my analysis of his psychosis, obviously hates the color of his own skin and attacks only fellow pale-faces, including totally imaginary ones he claims are "Nazis" to compensate for his needless guilt for being born as he was. This is why he won't condemn these "minorities" who are indubitably openly, brazenly bashing all Jews, spreading hatred and contempt against them and inciting violence.

C'mon, Warren, why don't you kick those hateful, anti-Semitic asses on your blog, with a book, or with a stuffed animal you pull out of your gym bag on TV?

Kinsella- what a crock fulla crap.

Ok, I'll leave the poor bastard alone now. He's suffering enough, what with the neverending chaos going on inside his massive cranium. I do actually have compassion for the mentally-disordered and wish him well with his getting better and eventually becoming normal.

Just two observations Re the video of this display on non-Canadian nationalism.

1) How come the steel workers union contingent look like they never worked a day in their lives, let alone worked with steel.

2) Under Criminal code Section 318, it is a criminal act to "advocate or promote genocide". When was this section suspended for demonstrating leftists and Hamas (an outlawed group)? Were the police instructed to ignore the law in this instance? Isn't that a breech of trust by police officials?

I don't want people who openly advocate for the genocide or annihilation of a people and their nation in my country. If this is now TO political left chic, then the civil culture of GTA is degenerate and terminally sick.

Iggy's Albatross.

Was Iggy raised by a weak father?

Joan says,

"Warren Kinsella will manage the war room" for Liberal Iggy.

"Ignatieff's inner circle starts taking shape
January, 6, 2009 - 06:40 pm Bryden, Joan - (THE CANADIAN PRESS)"

STOPIGGY.

I don't think that this has anything to do with immigration. We've seen the same types of violent and flag burning demonstrations about the Iraq War. And, but only in part, it was the same group of people; namely, the unions, the left, the Islamic but also, a great many 'middle of the road' people.

I happen to have been and remain strongly in support of the Iraq War and applaud its outcome, the enabling of democracy and a middle class in a formerly tribal state.

I happen to be against the current Gaza War, and have outlined my reasons in a number of posts. As I've done already, I claim that the situation is not as simple, as black and white, as so many people, who are either in favour of or against this war, claim. It's complex, multi-layered, with levels of belief held by both sides that are inherently contradictory even within the same set of beliefs.

It is of interest to know that both Islamic and Jewish belief systems have strong similarities in how they define themselves and those who are not 'themselves. Both peoples are tribal and both clearly define their identity from other 'tribes'.

The Islamic basic text, the Qu'ran is supplemented by a host of traditional norms of belief and behaviour, the Hadith.
The Jewish basic text, the Torah, is supplemented by its own host of traditional norms of belief and behaviour, the Halakah. Nothing to talk about there.

What is interesting is how each views 'non-members' of the religious group. The fundamentalists on both sides adhere to these two sets of texts. The orthodox and conservatives Jews follow the specific rules of the Halakha quite closely, while Reform Jews do not.

And in both Israel and the Arab states, there are enough of these fundamentalists to 'make a political difference'. The orthodox and conservative rabbis, who issue their comments on how these rules are to be experienced in current events, are quite vocal and affect political decisions.

In the Islamic world, the fight between the fundamentalists and the moderates is of great concern because the moderates still do not have a powerful enough voice among the ordinary people; their governments restrain the fundamentalists only because they are cautious about the global political consequences.

But neither side is immune to the authoritative weight of these ancient perspectives about Other Peoples in My Territory.

For example, in the Halakha, it states that the land of Israel (variously defined but even at its minimal it includes the West Bank)..can't be given up. To anyone. And it is the duty of every Israeli Jew to kill, in particular, Arabs in defense of this land.
The Arabs are viewed in particular, as Other.
You can't sell immovable property to a non-Jew (those houses in Gaza?); you can't rent it to an arab except for storage; in a rabbinical court, gentile (non-jew) testimony is rejected because 'they always lie'. And so on.

What's my point? This fundamentalist view of other peoples are 'Other' is held by both sides. What I think needs to be done is that we have to acknowledge that BOTH SIDES, based on beliefs which have become revered as their heritage, as indicative of their basic identity..both sides hold isolationist views, that these views can become dominant in the nations of both and our task, the task of the West, is to try to reduce the hold over the people of these isolationist beliefs. And we have to acknowledge that both sides have the capacity for non-isolationist beliefs to develop. How?

Well, I'm back to the economy. First, I think that the enormous emotional hold of an ideology over an individual can surpass any other belief. But, such an attraction (which can be seen in various charismatic cults, in revelatory experiences, in obsessive behaviour etc) will be held by only a minority in a population. You can never reduce this ratio to zero. But you can reduce it to a minimal level. And you do that by enabling the majority of the population to live a reasonably comfortable life. That's the economy.

So, in Gaza, you work directly with the Palestinians on the ground. Not Hamas who are the fundamentalists. Fundamentalists in any belief system are outside of debate, negotiation. You work with the average people to enable and assist their economy. I've said this before; that means that in Gaza, Israel enables the greenhouse and furniture economy - really sets up a strong infrastructure - and this will separate the average Palestinian from the fundamentalist.

That's the most basic step- to separate the fundamentalist from the moderate. The moderate wants to live just as a human being; sure, they want a basic religion to provide stability and a sense of community, but not one that alienates them and diminishes their life choices. The fundamentalist only has a belief system in which to live within and any deviation from these texts is viewed as a threat.

Then, you go against Hamas, not by bombing the average Palestinian, but with the aid of Egypt (who don't want Hamas around) and the moderates in Palestine - you go against only them. And I'm suggesting that what will happen is what happened in Iraq - the local people themselves turn against the fundamentalists. The local people just want to live as themselves; they don't want to live within a fundamentalist belief system.

Therefore, my view is that Israel's economic blockade of Gaza, beginning in 2007, which destroyed the local economy, simply strengthened the fundamentalists. As for the future, I don't see any future. The Palestinians who will remain there - will Israel help them develop an economy? The greenhouses are, by now, rubble and they were destroyed anyway by the economic blockade which also shut off water, hydro, etc. Egypt doesn't want Gaza. Israel doesn't want Gaza. What's left? Hamas is left - and it will rebuild itself based on hatred. That's why I think the current Gaza war is an error.

Moslems take over Europe :Check out the Infidel Bloggers Alliance website for pictures of moslems across Europe prostrating themselves to Mecca in front of places of worship which belong to other religions. In addition, they are burning Israeli flages in front of the Vatican.

I have a suspicion about this unholy alliance between the government unions and the Islamofascists. I think the unions are getting their ducks in a row for the next round of government cuts. Remember the "Days Of Action" where all the government unions went berserk at the thought of layoffs? Imagine the chants of "hey hey, ho ho" mixed in with "Kill the Jews" and "aloha snackbar".

Just a thought.

Great job Mississauga Matt. I think your video is very well done. You dont overload the viewer with too many comments, and yet the viewer can clearly see what is being spoken. You sure that was Toronto, and not Beirut? :)

Harper will never close the door, even with a majority.He has already proven he has no gonads to fight stuff like this. The sooner he goes the better for Canadian conservatism.

ET: You're opinions on the Iraq war are based on fallacy.

2) Under Criminal code Section 318, it is a criminal act to "advocate or promote genocide". When was this section suspended for demonstrating leftists and Hamas (an outlawed group)? Were the police instructed to ignore the law in this instance? Isn't that a breech of trust by police officials? -WLM Redux

--The police are always instructed by local politicians to refrain from enforcing the law whenever special Leftists, GLBTS, Islamofascists, etc. are set to "demonstrate" in an illegal manner. There is no doubt about this- it's elementary and logical to make this conclusion after seeing the law broken by certain groups in front of the police, who actually protect them in their so doing, rather than upholding the law and arresting the lawbreakers.

Indeed, local politicians do interfere with the police, do interfere in the enforcement of the law, and do favor certain groups over others. There is no doubt in my mind about this. What other possible conclusion could the reasonable person reach?

"I happen to have been and remain strongly in support of the Iraq War and applaud its outcome, the enabling of democracy and a middle class in a formerly tribal state.

I happen to be against the current Gaza War, and have outlined my reasons in a number of posts. As I've done already, I claim that the situation is not as simple, as black and white, as so many people, who are either in favour of or against this war, claim. It's complex, multi-layered, with levels of belief held by both sides that are inherently contradictory even within the same set of beliefs."

Posted by: ET at January 11, 2009 12:23 PM

That pretty well says it all. Strongly in support of a questionable invasion, that was poorly planned, and had disastrous losses. Against an Israeli counter attack to stop repeated rocket attacks against innocent civilians. You are a conflicted soul.

Absolutely no doubt about it, you are a certified Jew hater.

ET, are you out of your flipping mind?

Islam is a violent oppressive barbaric death cult.
It is a forced assimilation cult. It has no value in a civilized world.

You can not compare the barbaric death cult of islam with Judaism or Christianity. The latter two religions have evolved, and have embraced a peaceful coexistence.

Not since the last Liberal convention have so many members of a Liberal voting block been gathered in one spot.

Great turnout!

Deez:

Which of ET's opinions do you disagree with and what would be your solution?

"Not since the last Liberal convention have so many members of a Liberal voting block been gathered in one spot.

Great turnout!

Posted by: EBD at January 11, 2009 12:50 PM "

Darn,EBD,you beat me to it! Ohhhhh,I hate you.Got your own flag I can burn??/sarc(for all the "tolerant" leftards out there.)

Awesome work Kathy and Matt! Your integrity is obvious and I have nothing but respect for you both.

It's sad that so few turned out to counter the hate but those of you who did provoked the religion of peace crowd enough that they showed their real colors.

As far as the missing muse goes....the boy is a walking contradiction...an establishment punker, ex-calgarian, leftard hatchet hack, urinal sniffing, Iggy backing (irony?)....SUCKHOLE.

Regardless....Thanks for facing our enemy

Syncro.

Well,well well.The leaders of the Jewish religion are once again promoting peaceful coexistance with their oppressors.Move to the ghettos,get in the box cars,stay in line,dont revolt,these people dont want to hurt you!The Jews that said that were later refered to as Kapos as they were the ones that kept the rest in line.They should have hung themselves.

Just some notes on the hate-fest:

- after apologizing the night before for describing Israelis as Nazis, and being reminded that he foolishly did the same to former Ontario Premier Mike Harris, CUPE prez Sid Ryan used the N-word to describe the editorials of Canadian newspapers. Sid's a slow learner.

- one terror-supporting man brought along his young son and after engaging the Israel supporters for a few minutes, pointed to his lad and said "this is the next generation of martyrs!"

- an Indian man, Hindu I presume, came up to the Israel side, nodded his head and said that he supports Israel because of Mumbai, because of all the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. He then held up the flag of Israel and proceeded to give the other side an earful. They actually stopped and listened to what he said, a little dumbfounded in fact.

- What you see on video is mild compared to what it could have been. For most of the time I was at the hate-fest the majority of the terrorism supporters were hundreds of feet to the east near where speeches were made, and for the most part anyone who tried to engage the pro-Israel side were moved along by joint CUPE/terrorism supporting event handlers. I think they realized the bad PR they got from the last go-round.

Most scenes you do see occurred shortly before the police moved us out for safety concerns, before most of the mob made its way down the street.

- no Kinsella's were seen in the making of this video!

"It looks to me like Kinsella is a double-agent. Being a liberal, he is going to go where he believes the going is good. He is a true liberal, and if he thinks he can garner the terrorist-supporters vote, he will be marching along side the pro-terrorist, anti-semitic unions."
...
No he won't be marching along side them, even Kinsella is smart enough not to do that. He will however never explicitly condemn them either all in the hope of siphoning off as many of their votes as possible.

The Liberals have consistently courted Canada's growing "Arab Street" - they know a demographic voting shift when they see one. The CJC and the Jewish community in general are a declining force demographically and otherwise. Public pronounciations in support of Israel aside, the LPC knows which side their bread is buttered on.

It doesn't appear to me that the protest by the pro-Palestinians was "PROPORTIONAL".

I am neither Jewish nor Moslem.

I am the the worst of the worst according to the CHRC. I am a white male, conservative, and christian.

Even worse than that I am a former member of the Canadian forces, Infantry. I also was stationed in the middle east with the UN.

I consider myself a Canadian Patriot, 'a term you will not hear very often anymore'.

Having said that, I am ashamed for the Canada, a country which would allow such filth to be publicly broadcasted in a major city.

I am ashamed that the Police, who are supposed to serve and protect society, stood by and let this racist ranting take place.

I am ashamed of our media which did not scream in disapproval, for the filth spewed at that location.

I am ashamed that government agencies which we pay for, who's function is to make sure this does not happen in Canada, are prepared to let this slide.

If the appointed are not prepared to stop this, who is?

Are we as citizens supposed to stamp out this filth, this anti-jewish tirade?

Do we need to stop this filth by meeting these fanatics on their own turf and level the playing field by screaming anti-moslem, anti-hamas tirades in front of city hall?

Should we scream for the death of moslem infants?

Should we demand that our government assist Israel in striking back?

Should we demand that for every missile fired from Gaza, Canada will launch a retalitory strike?

This is what these human viruses are asking and demanding for Israel.

As a democratic nation should we not be allowed to decide who we support, and how.

We also decided, what we consider civilized behaviour, nothing in the anti-jewish rally, will meet those behaviour standards.

We as citizens, must demand that this conduct be stopped. not now but right F&cking now.

Disgusting. Is that what the cesspool known as Toronto has degenerated into? Another frickin Gaza Strip? Remember, it's not just Jews they hate...

Disgusting. We need to seriously reconsider our immigration policies.

One more thing: I keep hearing about "Moderate" Muslims...

Are there any?

Blazing Cat Fur @ 1:15....And on your blog, you say you are now supporting Ignatieff....hmmmm....

Incidentally, the website called the Cannon which was reffered to here yesterday, has a poll up on the Gaza situation.

http://www.thecannon.ca/index.php

A few thoughts on the topic if I may ...

The man/child Kinsella is in show biz. Rule #1 is that is doesn't matter what they are saying as long as they are talking about you. To stop giving him press might diminish his role in the destruction of freedom.

ET ... you are confused. Let me help. Hamas - bad, Israel - good. There is NOTHING Jews can do to change the minds of their exterminators. Got that?

Toronto is now a place that I consider dangerous and evil. All decent freedom loving, non-union Canadians should not live in such a vile place. Get out of there. There are lot's a great places to live and work out West where we are a bit more democratic and still love freedom and enterprise.

The mention of the police not doing their duty regarding the haters at that Fest, is evidence that we do not have a good legal or justice system in Canada. We have totally political police forces throughout Canada who no longer "serve and protect" the people, but rather the terrorists, corrupt politicians and socialists.

I suggest that anarchy is on it's way. When you can no longer believe in your society and it's laws and it's leaders. When you can no longer identify with large groups of it's citizens, there is no longer a cohesive society or any sort of patriotism to glue us together.

I do not see why anyone wants to pay taxes to any level of government in what is left of this country.

Kinsella has finally addressed the anti-Semitism on display at the rally, but I find his response somewhat lacking: he's put up three photos of vaguely swastika-like patterns he found on the toast he made this morning, and he's calling for the HRCs to prosecute T-Fal.

Wow. Most bizarrely, there's a video of him wearing a Star of David helmet watching the rally with his fingers in his ears, shouting "LA-LA-LA-LA- I-CAN'T-HEAR-YOU-LA-LA-LA-LA....!"

Cognitive dissonance is a cruel mistress.

Toronto is the place that the so called intellectuals hold up as a beacon of the progressive world, coupled with todays sheep like lack of independant thought that is todays political climate in which people like Kate and Kathy are made out to be the bad guys for violating perverse political correctness rules (the only crimes that can't be forgiven),canada is in trouble. maybe when the messiah Obama concentrates his war efforts in Afghanistan as he promised, our canadian progressives will follow along and stop cheering on the Taliban.

This is the perfect reason why we should be removing union tax excempt status.

By the way...........Hez. is a terrorist organization........so is Hamas. We have supporters here protesting for them.

I know the way we should deal with them. The same our leaders in WW2 would have dealt with them. I guarantee you the last thing they would be doing is what you see in this video.

ET has hit new lows, equivocating between the Islamic and Jewish belief systems. Something that would make any multiculturalist proud.

Given her rails against the ills of cultural equivalency in the past, is this just a simple case of cognitive dissonance? Or something else?

Funny, how we haven't seen any Jewish counter protesters with placards and bullhorns saying "back to the ovens", or, "Hitler didn't do the job", or telling children that "you're gonna die."

Funny, how we haven't seen the burning of flags, the assault on mosques, businesses and cops by the Jews.

Funny, how the economy, democracy and freedom have not settled Muslims in the west into productive, civilized behaviour.

Funny, all that.

Islam is not equal to other religions. It's not even worth wiping your feet on.

I say Toronto just doesn't have enough uneducated third world savages.

Can you feel the diversity? So enriching.

Let's give notice to people with functioning brains to pack up, leave Toronto, and then build a frickin' wall around that hellhole to keep the undesirables out of the ROC. They want a Gaza, they can have one.

You can't reason with people like that.

deezflowers -you have provided only you conclusion but no reasons for your conclusion.

dp - I happen to support the Iraq War and applaud its outcome. A population released from a tribal dictatorship, which has moved into a democratic state, with a constitution and rule of law, and a developing middle class economy - and which itself fights back against Islamic fascism in its midst. I think that's a remarkable result, and applaud Bush, the Americans, and their allies, the British, Australians, Danes, and others, who helped to bring this about.

Honey Pot, I disagree with your assertion that "Islam is a violent oppressive barbaric death cult". Most certainly, its fundamentalist followers are all of that, but so is all fundamentalism. I've pointed out the violence and rejection of Others that is found in the Halakha of the Judaic religion.

Orthodox Jews, who play an important political role in Israel, follow these rules 'to the text', while Conservative Jews, also an important political force, allow for 'evolutionary interpretation'. My point is that exclusionary beliefs, opinions holding that Others are sub-human and must be killed, etc, are not exclusive to Islam.

I've outlined the causes of Islamic fascism, which is a particular version of Islamic fundamentalism, and won't repeat it, but the results of the Iraq War will go a long way in reducing Islamic fascism in the ME. Unfortunately, I feel that the Israeli approach to Hamas in Gaza, will strengthen Islamic fascism - and particularly in the West. We've seen an example of that in yesterday's demonstration in Toronto.

Are there any moderate Muslims? What a question; we've been over that before. Of course there are, and well-known ones include Salim Mansur who writes for the Toronto Sun, Farek Tatah, Irshad Manji, and a host of others who write in academic journals about how the Hadith and Qu'ran must be open to interpretation and evolution. Try the Muslims against Sharia blogsite.

As for the mechanical and reductionist split of 'Hamas bad' and 'Israel good', I'm sorry but I don't subscribe to mechanical motions when dealing with living beings. That's because all that is alive is a complex rather than mechanical system. Sure, you can do the binary on and off or good and bad with a light switch but when you are dealing with anything living, you have to acknowledge complexities.

Hamas is a fascist ideology and therefore, I reject it completely because it is fundamentalist. Israel is a political state (not an ideology) and can't be defined, in itself, as either good or bad. You have to consider its policies - and with reference only to Gaza, I consider its decision to invade as a bad decision. Instead, my own view is that Israel, and other people as well, ought to separate the fundamentalist fascists...from the normal everyday people..and deal with them each differently.

By the way, Toronto in itself is neither good nor bad - just like Israel, so I don't think that we can come to such conclusions. You'll find demonstrations here rather than, say, in North Bay or Brantford, because as a capital city, Toronto has the consulates.

If you are a union member maybe a note to all unions reminding them of a basic fact. The employer pays you to do as they expect. The union takes my money so you work for me and you aren't representing my interests by being involved in this. This is not "social justice" it is hate.

ET wrote:

So, in Gaza, you work directly with the Palestinians on the ground. Not Hamas who are the fundamentalists. Fundamentalists in any belief system are outside of debate, negotiation. You work with the average people to enable and assist their economy.

Wow. Talk about well-meaning but hopelessly naive.

You don't 'work with' anyone BUT Hamas in Gaza, or you don't work at all. Sorry, but you'll now need to revisit and rethink your entire strategy from the ground up. Let us know when you have something realistic, okay?...

ET

What exactly is Toronto the capital of?

Syncro

Kathy and Matt...just amazing! I squirm when I am challenged in the comfort of my home! That took guts, and we should all be spurred on to get out and speak out.

Soccermom...you beat me to it on the BCF retort.

That being said our government needs to look closely at section 13, and how to deal with the real hate mongering that is recorded here.
Or was that section 13 still there just to keep those beaurocrats busy harassing Canadians?
Lynch doesn't have the guts to go after these real hate mongering fools.

ET, I seldom engage in discussion with you because I respect your knowledge in so many areas. However, today I must say a few things:
There was no State of Palestine before 1948. There were a group of people that were asked to move from the area of Palestine. It's that simple.Unfortunately that decree has conveniently fed the Islamist hatred for Jews.And the 'common' Palestinian voted for Hamas.That would make common Palestinians as you say 'fundamentalist' (a word used a bit to loosely in this context).They are mislead and driven by hate,no matter where they live, as evidenced in this video.

Wow and Double Wow!!!

First off, Matt a big thank you from Vancouver for filming this in hi-res and for editing it. Absolutely superb.

The insights gained from the captions was great too. In no particular order, here are my reflections:

- Clearly non-Jewish protesters posing as Jews
- The Che Guevera flags (do they even know a thing about what he actually did?)
- Multiple supporters screaming with glee about how Israel would be wiped off the map
- Any attempt at peaceful dialogue by the protesters was clamped down upon by the "organizers"
- The frenzied screaming of "Allah Akbar" such as we see in incensed mobs in Pakistan and other Muslim countries
- Were the formally printed signs made by the same people who wanted to recently overthrow our democratically elected government with The Coalition?

Free Speech is a great thing and should always be promoted. But given the right of free speech doesn't guarantee that the speaker will utter anything remotely intelligent.

ET might I suggest you read up on the history of Islam, they had very brief periods in their history that they lived in peace amongst Christians and Jews. Those countries were Egypt, Spain, and Iran. I use to hold out hope that we could live in peace with Muslims in the West, the rallies across the globe have shown me I was foolish to believe the followers of a religion that straps bombs on their children could join our culture and we flourish in peace. I either bow before their violent hatefilled supremacy or become a victim of it. I don't do victim, the police were negligent in their duty, they are obligated to arrest those that called for Genocide yet they stood and did nothing.

Never Again has begun again, instead of Germany uniting with a Radical Fanatical Muslim aka Yasser Arafat we have the socialists' left in Canada united with radical terrorist supporters. Gawd those people repulse me.

When confronted with punks - deal with their cousins !!?? Not the punks ??

neo has a good link in 'Shrinking Ass Kickers post'.

--------------

neo - a very relevant link !!

[ We see this phenomenon writ large in Gaza, where the punks are organized into a terrorist militia called Hamas. It is unnecessary to consider their Islamist ideological credentials, only to witness their deeds. These are people who were under the impression that "society" -- by analogy "the world community," and the diplomatic draughtsmen of innumerable "roadmaps to peace" -- had granted them permission to wing thousands of rockets gratuitously into Israel.]

Permission granted to punks - be punks, with immunity. Now WK's fake obsession with punk bands makes sick sense.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/todays-paper/When+dealing+with+punks+there+time+liberal/1165503/story.html

"Kinsella- what a crock fulla crap."

C'mon leave the guy alone. Don't you know there was an AC DC concert in Toronto to go to. The Rogers Centre washrooms are target rich environments for hunting for swastikas.

SoccerMom said: "Blazing Cat Fur @ 1:15....And on your blog, you say you are now supporting Ignatieff....hmmmm...."

Yup SoccerMom, see also Plan-B on my site - Harper caved on Section 13 (1), he no longer merits my support, if I am going to have to give my support to an ideologically corrupt political party it way as well go to the masters of the game.

syncrodux - Toronto is the provincial capital of Ontario. It therefore houses consulates of quite a few nations, not embassies which are in the national capital of Ottawa.

Fred from BC - nope, I disagree with you. You work with the local people. I'm advocating a two-leveled approach. That is, Israel continues to provide the basic services to Gaza of water, electricity and gas. Yes, that gets to the Hamas followers as well, but the point is, you don't include the non-Hamas with the Hamas. This means that the economy of Gaza can exist; the economy requires those basic energy and water supplies.

Then, you also open the borders to the economy; the Gaza economy is heavily based on exporting 100% of its fresh fruit/vegetables to Israel. If you end this - by cutting off electricity and water and closing the borders, then, you drive the people into the arms of Hamas.

The agenda has to be focused on: How do we reduce the inflation and power of Islamic fascism? There are two ways and they are not 'either-or' but MUST operate together. One is to fight back against militant fascist attacks. The other, hand in hand, is to enable democracy and a middle class economy in the fascist-domain areas. Both must go together. Not one OR the other. BOTH.

bluetech - there has never been a 'state of Palestine'. Just as at one time there wasn't a 'state of Canada' or a 'state of the USA'.

No, the Palestinians were not 'asked' to leave, they were told to leave. And since many had been living there for centuries, on land, homes, farms under the Ottoman and then British rule, surely you don't expect them to just 'up and leave' this property? Why?

No, you are quite wrong to claim that an electoral victory of one party means that ALL the electorate voted for that party. Surely you know that is not the case. I'm sure that, although the Conservative Party won the October election, there are a great many Canadians who would object to being defined as Being Conservative.

What we have to concern ourselves with is what are they telling their children? We could be dealing with this inbred hatred on a much larger scale as they procreate here and raise their numbers to out of control mobs in our streets.

First order of business had better be putting the unionistas out of business or at least IN THEIR PLACE which is not the foreign affairs of this country.

I just read Kathy Shaidle's blog posting. She asks a very important question: Why were there not more Jewish people there to counter-protest?

I wonder what a poll would reveal:

1. They couldn't be bothered.
2. They were afraid.
3. They think that protesting is pointless.
4. They are actually against Israel's actions.
5. Other.

This is an important question that needs to be answered. I hope that Ezra Levant and other prominent Jewish Canadians address it.

ET
That's a lot of word salad just to say you hate Jews (zionists) too. I'm tired of your twisted lies about Islam and Muslims. You think of yourself as some female academic who is free to make up history. Tell us again how Islam was developed to help the tribal Arabs defend there "agrarian" lands from the incursions of the Byzantines. I was laughing for days about that one. Sometimes you make sense, but you never do about Islam. Is it your sick Jew hate or is it ignorance?

It just shows how susceptible these group thinkers have become. They will eat up terrorist propaganda, ignore history and facts, just so they can protest against the evil man. Their perspective has been manipulated full circle to the point of absolute hypocrisy and idiocy.

Perhaps WK will write a new book now tilted "Web of Hate" Hmmm?

"... when I can live in Saudi Arabia as a Christian we'll open our boarders to more Muslim Immigrants."

Right on, Rose.

Anyone want to talk about "proportionality"? Well, that's when Christians, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, atheists, etc. are allowed freedom of speech and freedom of religion rights in Muslim countries.

When pigs fly, eh? If anyone talks to you about "proportionality" in the Hamas/Israeli conflict, point this out. We have to have our wits about us, because we are hearing the most inane arguments about this issue. We've got to stop accepting them, we've got to start, quite vociferously, speaking truth to lies.

There's too much lying going on in the ranks of pro-Palestinian/Hamas groups and their sleazy accomplices in the MSM and the CHRCs. What's the name of the "justifiable lies" Muslims are allowed to tell infidels? That's going on big-time when it comes to this issue.

Thanks, Mississauga Matt, for the video and Me No Dhimmi for the suggestions for my logic-challenged parent. I'm not sure they'll help, but you never know. I've more or less taken your advice and figure that subject will be off the radar screen when we get together. I hate having to self-censor like that, but sometimes there's no other choice in this Deranged Dominion of ours.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=30a_1231680653

Perhaps this is why the Jewish people never showed up in TO. It's British police running from the protesters there. I hope the only thing holding them back was discipline.

I noticed one poster at the USW rally was holding the sign "Stop the Holocaust Against the Palestinians". If he was intelligent enough to assess the components of historic genocides he would have noticed that WWII European Jews, Armenians, Stalin's kulaks and Ukranian famine victims, Pol Pot's victims, Ruwandans, and Sudanese genocide victims all had one thing in common, they were unarmed groups whose males had no ability like the Palestinians to defend the group. What part of over-armed, militarily well-funded with the full support of their Arab neighbors does that union cretin and his lefty ilk not get about the Palestinians? They aren't and never have been victims of Israeli aggression let alone "genocide". No one in that sorry sewer in Gaza has clean hands.

And, Mark Steyn nails it, the utter moral corruption of self-loathing liberal Jews seen in the CJC, the media, lefty academia and Hollywood. I find them as loathsome as Hamas.

What I see in this video is the sad state of what Canada has become.
I fear that time spent in service to Canada, my Father RCNVR 1939-1945 and myself RCN/CAF 1963-1977 was a complete and total waste.
I look at the political leadership that has defined Canada from Def on are not worth the glass of water to generate enough urine to piss on them.
I think of where we are now, when even though he was caught with both hand in the till, up to his armpits, has a large shipping company that he calls Canadian but keeps off shore to avoid tax's, was voted in as Pm. This is the same turkey that appointed a seperatist that was a French citizen to be our titular head of state.
We then had another French citizen running for king and he got more than 2, his and his wife's. votes.
So we now have a PM who is either politically inept or just plain stupid. The government was handed to him on a silver platter and he still managed to loose. I don't think you can blame all of this on the left leaning media. This guy would loose a one man rush to a to hole shit house.
We now have an American running for king and if the poles are to be believed the libs and the cons are equal.
I beleive that Canada has become a bunch of free lunch advocates and that it does not have the gonades to be a real country.
Canada died 28 June 2004. End.

robert w- in your 'other' I wonder if it's because it doesn't make sense to confront a fundamentalist. Since a fundamentalist of any ideology doesn't operate by the use of reason then, what's the point of confronting them? Just to yell and scream? The more sensible tactic is to simply let them yell and scream. And ignore them. After all, neither side is going to change their mind in the interaction.

A more serious question is the role of unions in political issues. This is something that I think needs to be addressed. I'm aware that members have previously taken a union to court because of that union's engagement in political issues. I know that there is one case now
court case
and there have been others.

After all, unions are financially powerful because of those dues but I think they violate their mandate when they move into issues outside of the workplace. It violates the right of the individual employee as a citizen, to act on his own with regard to political decisions when a union of which he is a member acts 'on his behalf'..and without his vote that they should do so.

In addition, union management calls out these union members to work on election campaigns, to work in these protests and so on. If you hesitate, you get into the black books of the union, and can expect retaliation in the workplace.

Why were the unions out in these demonstrations? For election purposes. Remember that Toronto has the highest Muslim population in Canada and these electoral ridings are contestable. The unions work for the Liberals - and thus, have a firm control on these ridings. So, what's the demonstration about? It's about votes in Canada. Not peace and security in Israel or Palestine.

...I've said this before; that means that in Gaza, Israel enables the greenhouse and furniture economy...

ET, you've said that a hundred times. What you don't say is that the next largest export is the suicide bomber. That is a far greater detriment to Israel than any gains from furniture imports ever will be. Therefore it is in Israels' best interests to keep the border closed.

Egypt shares a border with Gaza. It's closed. As a matter of fact I believe they built a wall to keep the Palestinians out. There doesn't seem to be a lot of rockets flying in that direction. I wonder why?

ET, you are obviously well read and well educated but you need to pull your overeducated, overprotected head out of your ass.

Forget the middle east for a minute and lets look closer to home.

Suppose Obama decides the best thing for the US economy is to throw out Nafta, the Auto Pact, and anything else that catches his fancy. The US is 80% of our export market. Would that destroy our economy? Absolutely. Does that give us a right to throw rockets across the border? Absolutely not.

Lets try another scenario:
One of the US politcal parties (let's say the Republicans because they are always the bad guys in the movies) decides that alls that is wrong with America is Canada. Over the course of years this view catches of with more people even as the rhetoric gets shriller until the Republican leadership is calling for the destruction of Canada and the extermination of the Canadian people. Would the Canadian government be justified in closing the border and a massive military build-up including a nuclear deterrent? It would be a complete dereliction of duty if it didn't.

Let's try one more:
Canada forcibly expells Qubec from the Dominion. After years of constant border problems Canada closes its border with Quebec. The US does the same. Quebecs' ability to export poutine is destroyed. Does Quebec then have the right to lob mortors into Ottawa? Does Canada have a right to respond? Does this need an answer?

Hamas is the govenment in Gaza. They continually fire rockets into Israel. This is an act of war. Israel is fully within their rights to invade. Hamas uses schools and hospitals for cover. This makes them valid targets. Any civilian casualties are the fault of Hamas.

Of all the countries in this world only one is expected to have an open border with a neighbour who's sworn to its extermination.
Only one is expected to put up with endless rocket attacks.
Only one country is expected to support the economy of, and give foreign aid to, a neighbour sworn to its destruction.
Only one.

Why is that?

robert w - I think the reason why Jews don't show up for these rallies is because it's useless to go to a rally of fundamentalists, for they are immune to reason. The best way to deal with a fundamentalist is to ignore them. Otherwise, it's just two 'sides' ranting and yelling at each other. No point.

The biggest concern is the role of the unions in these rallies - and other political issues. I think that the unions are in gross violation of their members' rights when the union executive uses their dues to finance and assist political actions; and when they use the PR visibility of the union, to make public political statements. They have no right to remove the individual's right to have and make political decisions on their own.

I know that there are court cases which challenge the right of the union to move into political activism. I'll try to post a link again. I tried the a href tactic and failed. So, without the header which ticks off the filter, try this
www.journalofcommerce.com/article/id31510

I think that both union members and non-union members should protest to the government against any and all political activism of unions.

Fight fire with fire.

Let's wipe Gaza off the map!

Posted by: penny at January 11, 2009 3:31 PM

Penny, you forgot the main thing these genocides had in common: dead bodies.

6 million Jews
7 million Ukrainians
3 million Cambodians
500 000 thousand Rwandans

For an advanced military working in a small area they seem pretty slow at racking up the numbers.

Even the lefts favourite dead hero Saddam managed a 100 000 thousand dead Kurds.

You'd think the sneaky jews could do at least that well.

I'm getting close to feeling enough is enough.

I've certainly had enough of certain Muslim parasites who have come to Canada, have enjoyed its multiple benefits, on the back of the rest of us, and then abuse our freedoms by behaving like a horde of barbarians. And who gets a free pass and state protection? The barbarians. Here. On our streets. In Canada. I’m not making this up.

I’m certainly in favour of free speech, which includes very offensive speech. However, it would seem to me that the incitement to murder and mayhem, directed at an identifiable group, which I heard in this video, would fall under Sections 318 and 319 of the Criminal Code:

Section 318: “Any person who promotes genocide is guilty of an indictable offence, and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years”.

“Section 319: Section 319(1): Public Incitement of Hatred

“The crime of 'publicly inciting hatred' has four main elements. To contravene the Code, a person must:

• communicate statements,
• in a public place,
• incite hatred against an identifiable group,
• in such a way that there will likely be a breach of the peace.

“Under section 319, 'communicating' includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means; a 'public place' is one to which the public has access by right or invitation, express or implied; and 'statements' means words (spoken, written or recorded), gestures, and signs or other visible representations.

“All the above elements must be proven for a court to find an accused guilty of either:

• an indictable offence, for which the punishment is imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
• an offence punishable on summary conviction.

“Section 319(2) defines the additional offence of communicating statements, other than in private conversation, that wilfully promote hatred against an identifiable group . . . ”

I’m afraid that the kind of behaviour I saw in the video has continued to undermine what good will I might have had for Islam. Yes, there are many fine individual Muslims. However, they are, it seems, unable or unwilling to moderate the vile hatred and intimidation (and beyond: think physical and mental abuse and "honour" killings) of their very frightening fanatics.

On occasion, I’m in schools with large Muslim populations. Many of the girls wear hijab. Many of them are sullen, disrespectful, and believe, BECAUSE of their protected status—oh yes, they're VERY aware of that—that they can treat teachers with an astonishing lack of respect, all the while, living off the bounty of this once Christian country. At one school, I had to hold my tongue as I passed the mothers of two of these entitled and arrogant children. I think they were mothers: they were pushing strollers, but were covered from head to toe in black bags, with only a slit for their eyes. I wanted to say, “Go back to where you come from, you alien troublemakers.” Any such freedom of expression on my part would have had me severely censured—and I’m a 6th generation Canadian, who’s paid in the vicinity of a $ MILLION in income tax alone, to support these sponging Mohammed Come Latelys. (Of course, what I’ve just said is altogether verboten in “polite"—read idiot—company.)

On the other hand, the Jews have lived quietly amongst us for generations, contributing (as Obama would say) way above their pay grade. The Jews have been and are productive, non parasitic citizens of this country, who deserve both our respect and our protection. There is no sub-group of Jewish Canadians who act out like these Islamic barbarians.

I am horrified and appalled by the complete inversion of values in a country that used to know the difference between good and evil. Yes, that’s what we’re talking about here. Re the Church, the late Father Richard John Neuhaus wrote, “Where orthodoxy is optional, orthodoxy will sooner or later be proscribed”. Re Canada: “Where good and evil are optional, the good will sooner or later be proscribed.”

Kyrie eleison.

Considering that the Charter and its insidious culture of entitlement and favouritism has cut off nearly all avenues of defense of the good and the true—concepts that the moral relativists who run this country (into the ground) refuse to acknowledge—it’s hard to know what conscientious citizens, who have not been hoodwinked by the Zeitgeist, should do. batb says, PRAY. Amen.

(Where we are reminds me of the scene in The Lord of the Rings when the Balrog has nearly caught up with the Fellowship. Gandalf is standing on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, facing this hideous and evil monster: “YOU SHALL NOT PASS” he thunders. Then he turns to the others and says, “Fly, you fools!”

Unfortunately, as a society run by idiots at all levels, who obsequiously—and, IMO, disastrously—seek to “pat the beast”, we seem to be standing aside and saying, “You shall indeed pass—with our blessing and assistance” to the Islamic "Orcs" amongst us. By the time they take charge, with a ruthlessness the idiots refuse to imagine, it will be too late to fly.)

ET, you wrote, further up the thread, "I'm advocating a two-leveled approach. That is, Israel continues to provide the basic services to Gaza of water, electricity and gas."

In other words, the nation that the democratically elected Gazan representatives vow to destroy is the nation that you say should provide these services, instead of, say, Egypt. Does that not strike you as odd?

Similarly, you have written more than a few times that Israel controls the water in the West Bank, yet the much larger (than Israel) country of Jordan is directly east of the Palestinian border, yet I've never seen you propose the idea that Jordan must provide services to the west bank. Why not? Why do you accuse Israel of cruelly witholding services, but not Jordan and Egypt?

I find that curious. The River Jordan roughly defines the border between Jordan and the Palestinian territories (excepting Gaza). Why does your solution entail water being delivered from the downhill (ocean) side, i.e. Israel?

Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan have water, electricity and gas, ET. Why do you insist that the responsibility for providing these services should be borne by the one nation in the neighbourhood that the Palestinians and their elected representatives have vowed to destroy? Why do your proposed solutions never seem to incorporate the notion that these services should be provided by the Palestinians' Arab neighbours?

Re Iggy, maz 2 posted, "Was Iggy raised by a weak father?"

I don't know the answer to that, but I knew Iggy's father--not well, but I knew him. Like Iggy, his father was a very accomplished, worldly person. Unlike Iggy, he appeared to be an unassuming, kind, courtly gentleman--at least every time I saw him. His "politesse" and kindness seemed to be altogether genuine, quite unlike Iggy, who seems to always be "on show".

shannon - I disagree with your view.

Our modern technology can prevent a suicide bomber from entering, and if the people in the region have a vibrant economy, are a middle class and are empowered in a democracy then they won't feel the need for suicide bombers. But to destroy the capacity of a population from living except by UN handouts - means that you are building up the desire for both suicide and suicide bombers.

Egypt doesn't have an integrated economy with Gaza; Gaza had one with Israel. Furthermore, it is Israel that set up the hydro lines, gas lines, water lines into Gaza. These systems operate from Israel not from Egypt. So, if you cut off this basic energy infrastructure and the economy, what type of reaction do you expect? Furthermore, Egypt isn't settling the West Bank.

Your US example is not analagous. For one thing, we are able to open up markets with other countries. I think that Canada's laziness in making itself more globally competitive and instead relying on the US market has been a great error. But, the point is, we CAN develop other export markets. Gaza can't; and remember, its energy and water comes from Israel. We aren't reliant on the US for our basic infrastructure.

You are also ignoring that Hamas is Islamic fascism and is not the 'people of Palestine'. We don't have such an element here, either within the government or as a sect.

Your Republian example is equally a false analogy. First, it is the responsibility of any government to protect its people. On both sides of the border. Second, spurious actions are outside of debate. I'd want to know WHY the Republicans came to this decision.

It would also mean that Hamas, as the elected govt in Gaza, has the responsibility to protect its people from the Israeli act of destroying the economy. As you can see, such acts on both sides are 'catch 22's'. My answer is that Israel ought to 'go around Hamas' and deal with the Palestinian people directly and assist their economy.

Your example with Quebec - equally irrelevant. What your examples are missing, in all cases, is the reason for the behaviour. That, believe it or not, is vital. So, to simply state that Quebec's economy weakens, without examining why the borders were closed in the first place - doesn't deal with the problem and reduces the situation to only one thing - closing the borders. Without any reasons for so doing.

Hamas is indeed the government in Gaza. It is also a fundamentalist and a fascist Islamic sect. And Israel is also settling the major part of a proposed Palestinian state, the West Bank, rendering any future Palestinian state almost impossible. So, there are three factors to consider. All of them are part of the complex causality and all have to be dealt with. You only deal with one issue: closing the borders.

You don't deal with the causes of Islamic fascism in the ME. You don't deal with the causes of Islamic fascism moving into Gaza. There are three basic causes and you don't deal with any of them. You just focus on the RESULTS of these three causes: rockets into Israel.

ET wrote, "Since a fundamentalist of any ideology doesn't operate by the use of reason then, what's the point of confronting them? Just to yell and scream? The more sensible tactic is to simply let them yell and scream. And ignore them. After all, neither side is going to change their mind in the interaction."

You're kidding, right?

Shannow.. Missed a point. One has nuclear weapons and hasn't used them.

This is moving so fast into viciousness, it has to be coordinated world wide. How? Iran & Syria, with certain Saudi Arabia Princes. They have the money with agents to do this. Frankly I believe they started in the 80's to infiltrate Western institutions when the plane hijackings where still just hostage situations as a distraction.
When we started to allow more of these “Religion Of Hate” folks in our Nations, the usual procedure of Islamic attack by colonization. Than when they build up to 2 % of a Muslim population ,critical mass is reached with the attendant violence, law fare, educational institutions & if possible the press. To force their Religion on all, with its horrid laws & scorn for Females. Persecution of the original inhabitants who invariably react to this violence like sheep to a wolf. They try to appease or think they can make deals. You can’t bargain with a demon. You only get the stink of hell on yourself, than killed for the presumption to a people who feel superior . Where their Religion admonishes them to kill all except those willing to be slaves.
Its like a Women giving birth, the closer to the child being born the quicker the labor pains.
The child the Jihadists are birthing will be a monster. How could it be anything else with a frenzied people with an even more insane god.
The CJC fall into the trap. Now comes the reconing.
If we don't hold fast against therse barbarians we deserve ourt fate.

JMO

Good job Mississauga Matt and Kathy Shaidle.

By the way Matt, did you see your Mississauga-South-Brampton Liberal MP Navdeep Bains, in the crowd?

Just wondering.

EBD - the reason why I suggest that Israel provide the services to Gaza is because the operating infrastructure of pipes etc is there for such an action. Why should Egypt, which gets no taxation from Gaza or subsidies for it, expect its citizens to pay for the construction of pipes and grids to supply Gaza?

The same with the West Bank; the water comes from the aquifers and the river and is local (not from Israel), but is denied to the Palestinians except for household use, ie, not for irrigation. Why should Jordan, which doesn't have any title to or revenues from the West Bank, expect its citizens to pay for the water and energy infrastructure of the Palestinians in the West Bank?

lookout, in my view, the isolationist behaviour that you describe is due to our disastrous multicultural policy which sets up immigrant groups as not allowed to, not supposed to..integrate with any other immigrant groups and with Canadians. They are kept intact and used as voting blocs.

I think that the Australian immigration requirement of 2007 is what we should do, where we insist that all immigrant AND visa entrants must accept Canadian values.

On a brief note - it's astonishing that the women wearing the full veil don't realize that this type of garment developed as a logical protection against desert heat and above all, the everblowing dust and desert insects. To then move it into a 'moral dress code' was an irrational secondary step.

But, our multiculturalism, which isolates groups and prevents their collaboration and integration, is a disaster.

In the quote of ET that I just cited, I notice that she made an invalid equivalency, "After all, neither side is going to change their mind in the interaction."

ET, Hamas and its Canadian supporters, whom we saw ranting, raving, and inciting hatred and death, here, in Canada, on our streets, I'm not making this up, are, indeed, FANATICS.

Israel and those of us who support its right to both exist and to protect itself from attack, ARE NOT.

Please take this into account.

ET, I really respect most of what you post here. But not on this and similar threads. That you would cite a moral equivalency, where there is none, is, IMO, reprehensible. The Nazis were fanatics. You think " [t]he more sensible tactic [was] to simply let them yell and scream. And ignore them"?

Like the Nazis in the '30s, the Islamic dark is rising over all of civilization. Ignore this EVIL? I think not.

"Stick to topics you know something about."

Unlike this pissy little bitch, I actually belonged to the USWA when I worked at Stelco. Members want their leaders to work for them in the workplace. They rarely agree with the lefty opinions of their so-called leaders who have no mandate to elevate themselves to this soapbox. The use this as a method of gaining the political power which they would otherwise never achieve in a democratic society.

ET
I think you belong out on the street with the other Jew hating Jackals.

Would you care to argue my assertion or do you prefer to babble about furniture and detergent and it's free flow?

lookout - I think you are ignoring my 'theories'. I'm saying that one ignores rallies, particularly if one side IS a fanatic ideology, because in that case, neither side, the irrational or the rational is going to change. Or interact with each other; they are just going to confront. OK?

I'm NOT saying to ignore Islamic fascism! I've never said that! I've said that we have to confront Islamic fascism, both militarily and politically. That's precisely why I supported the Iraq War, and Afghanistan, because both these actions were direct attacks on Islamic fascism. I support freeing a people from fascism and enabling them to develop a democracy and a middle class economy - both of which mitigate against fascism.

It's also why I support anti-relativism; and why I reject multiculturalism and support Australia's insistence on all newcomers agreeing to support the EXISTENT Australian basic culture. That's part of the ideological fight against fascism. It's also why I support promoting, helping, assisting in all ways, the voice of moderate Muslims.

It's also why I support any and all actions of countries to reject multicultural relativism, to insist on the right to evaluate beliefs and behaviours and to conclude that the democratic and rational moral values we have developed - are the ones that must remain in place.

I certainly reject and have always rejected Islamic fascism, and have explained how, in my view, it developed, and how, where and what we must do to combat it.

As for Israel, I've always supported its existence. I don't support any 'right to exist' of any country for I don't believe that a nation, which is a political entity, has any 'right to exist' - for that makes such a reality almost a metaphysical, an essentialist force.

Nations are political constructs; we humans make them. There is no 'right to exist or even, not to exist'. I support Israel because the international community decided, for whatever reasons (and not all of these reasons were moral) decided that it would exist. Therefore, it exists and I see no reason why it should not continue to do so. I also support a Palestinian nation and see it as a problem that it hasn't come into existence.

"Honey Pot, I disagree with your assertion that "Islam is a violent oppressive barbaric death cult". Most certainly, its fundamentalist followers are all of that, but so is all fundamentalism." - ET

Equivalency and ignorance, again. ET has no idea what the ideology is about. Neither does she know what is in the Quran, Hadiths and Sira, with special regard to the actions and sayings of Mohammad. Neither does she hear or read what Muslim political and religious leaders, directly quoting the Quran and Hadths, are saying.

Such assertions as the above, without a modicum of evidence - in her own words - makes her a cloud dweller.

"My point is that exclusionary beliefs, opinions holding that Others are sub-human and must be killed, etc, are not exclusive to Islam." - ET

More bald ignorance. The difference is that violence in the OT was limited to a time and a place. Violence in the Quran is until the whole world is for Allah. And faithful Muslims are acting on it, daily. As they are commanded.

She continues to pompously lecture, rather than debate:

"Are there any moderate Muslims? What a question; we've been over that before."

Once again, ignorance. It is only recently ET visited Muslims against Sharia, despite the fact many of us have provided her with this information and a lot more over the last couple of years. However, most reforming Muslims are considered apostate by the Islamic texts, the schools of Islamic jurisprudence, most of the religious leaders and scholars and the Ummah itself. Hirsi, is admittedly an apostate.

Furthermore, the term 'moderate' should give one pause to think, rather than pause in relief. Moderate versus what, exactly? Is the ideology moderate? Was Mohammad moderate?
What of the 'moderate' Muslims who immigrate to the west and their children become violent fanatics, as we've seen over and over?

What is it about Islam that inspires, no, incites so much violence against all non-Muslims and even Muslims and has done so, with hardly a time out, for 1400 years?

ulianov, "Political activity, etc. is done with the union members [sic] approval [sic]. If the majority of union members are against a uniions [sic, sic] political activity, they should attend their union meetings and vote against it."

Utter piffle.

Union pooh-bahs have all kinds of time to meet and plot ridiculous, non work related policies, while pulling down their huge salaries. Meanwhile, their members are toiling in the trenches, so busy and tied down by their very taxing jobs, they usually don’t have time to even read all the left-wing idiocy their overlords are up to, let alone get out to meetings.

And, let’s say, a member should go and question union orthodoxy, there are myriad ways for the powerful union insiders to put up roadblocks and deliver retribution.

I know: I tried it.

Wait ET! I forgive you everything ! "burkas are to keep out sandstorms" HA HA HA HA HA Ha Ha! You have no malice, your just an idiot and a barely useful one. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

ET. What are Canadian values? I'm almost afraid of the answer

Mr Salt nailed that one. Every union person I've been associated with, past and present, have wanted the union to speak on their behalf about workplace items and generally feel union bosses should STFU about political matters. Rather similar to what parents want their children's teachers to do: Teach, not preach.

ulianov - political activity is NOT done with their membership's approval. As we've seen, Sid Ryan announced his Motion to deny freedom of speech to any and all academics from Israel BEFORE he even took this motion to a vote. Yet, he announced it, as president of Ontario CUPE, and publicized it.

Same thing with other political activity. Unions don't put to a vote their having their members work for politicians who are running for election. Yet, they call up these members and insist that they go out canvassing, dropping off leaflets, fundraising and so on.

This Hamas/leftist rally in Toronto yesterday, coupled with CUPE, was done for political purposes. CUPE was helping the Liberal politicians in various Toronto ridings - the ridings which are heavily populated with Muslims.
Did they take this rally to a membership vote? You can bet they didn't.

Unions have no right to engage in political activism. That denies the right of the individual union members from such political actions, because the voice of the collective (eg the Union) is heard far more than the voice of the individual. LOTS of union members are furious with Ryan for his anti-Israel action re the professors, but HE gets heard by the public. They don't.

Try again.

I share ET's pos on this as well. We are all well aware of the the radical Islam fundamentalism here are some of the radical fundamentalism from the other side that would resemble that of Hitlers SS.

Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel
by Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinky

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/JewishFundimentalismIsrael.html

ET

I gather you shed the light here of you academic career of the last quarter century. The very overlap when academia was poisoned with socialist tardness. And now you offer your wisdom to us ET? No thank you.

ET, Of course you disagree with me. I could have written your answer before you did.
Gaza doesn't have an integrated infrastructure with Egypt? Build one. Why won't that happen? Because the Palistinians are poison and the Egyptians know it. So do the Jordanians. Let the Jews deal with them.
We could rebuild our economy. Not quickly, and not with a world-wide economic slump. For your information, Canada has been trying for years to build a market in China for our lumber. Fifty houses will be built of wood in China this year. If you can build a market that easily it would be done already.
Why do the Republicans hate us?
Why did we close the Quebec border?
Use your imagination. There are lots of examples in history for things going badly between states. Find one and insert as necessary. The point is there is a threat or an attack, what do you do about it?
If someone pulls a knife on me, my main concern is making sure it ends up in his chest, not mine. You I gather would react differently?
"People of Palestine" Sorry, after sixty years of tender UN care, Hamas IS the people of Palistine. If Hamas had any interest in building a country, Israel wouldn't have closed the border.
Get real. The reason for Islamic fascism is the damned jews refuse to die.

Fred @ 10:31 unwittingly defines the SDA horde:

"Hurling kindergarten insults, racial smears and screaming lies clearly indicates how deep into the pond scum some people need to devolve in order to bring some 'meaning' to their pathetically empty, utterly useless lives. We should feel sorry for these fools, these perfect examples of everything that can go wrong in human breeding, education and socialization. Weep for these pathetic rejects from the human family, these biological defects, these mental midgets. They have failed, fallen and will never get up. It is a terrible cross to have to carry for the rest of their empty lives."

Thanks, Fred. Well done.

ET, I was unaware: are Gazans taxed on their incomes, and the money sent to Israel?

Shawn

Explain the difference between a Jew and a Zionist?

No emailing ET for the answer.

okay, I really do not understand ET.
She says she opposes relativism, but equates Judaism and Islam. And what is she saying about halacha? Has she been visiting sites on the "sinister talmud and rabbinic courts"? The courts in Israel are secular. Yes there are people in Israel who do not want to sell land/houses to Arabs, because they do not like the possibility of being killed. Wow, they must be fundamentalists.
After the 67 war, Israel wanted (begged) Egypt and Jordan to take Gaza and the West Bank. Egypt and Jordan refused. So Israel provided them with electricity and water etc and surprise surprise, the infant mortality went down, life expectancy increased. No wonder the Arabs are so pissed at Israel. Oh yeah, I forgot, how could they possibly achieve their nationalistic goals of statehood if their are Jews living amongst them?

Is Bernie Farber Finally Waking Up?

I was pleasantly surprised by shocked to hearing Bernie Farber FINALLY coming to the realization that Anti-Semitism is alive & well in Canada, especially in Toronto. You can hear him here at 50:00.

Joe Molnar wondered if Matt saw Navdeep Baines there? I'm wondering also whether he saw Ears Aglhabra, defeated by a Conservative in Mississauga-Erindale?

I'll bet, not likely, Iggy-Kinsella would have advised them to stay away.

"Our modern technology can prevent a suicide bomber from entering, and if the people in the region have a vibrant economy, are a middle class and are empowered in a democracy then they won't feel the need for suicide bombers." - ET

Another false statement that flies in the face of evidence. From the shoe bomber to the British bomber doctors to the 'magnificent 19.' Not to mention the appalling numbers of Muslims living in the west who support suicide bombers, shariah, etc.

"lookout, in my view, the isolationist behaviour that you describe is due to our disastrous multicultural policy which sets up immigrant groups as not allowed to, not supposed to..integrate with any other immigrant groups and with Canadians."

Despite the ills of multiculturalism, Muslims separate themselves into their own ghettos and enclaves regardless. This is apparent in every western country, now with their 'no go zones' as well as in Thailand the Philippines, etc., where they are violently and militarily agitating for separation and their own Islamic state. Besides, what other immigrating cultures cause such obvious, persistent and growing problems, as they multiply, for the whole host population?

"I think that the Australian immigration requirement of 2007 is what we should do, where we insist that all immigrant AND visa entrants must accept Canadian values."

Naive. Given the Islamic practice of taqiyya. Australia is having as many problems with their Muslim immigrants as any other country. The Lebanese Muslim violence and gang rape is a case in point - "uncovered meat."

ET, I appreciate your response of 4:47. However, I still have problems with much of your analysis: E.g., You wrote, “lookout, in my view, the isolationist behaviour that you describe is due to our disastrous multicultural policy which sets up immigrant groups as not allowed to, not supposed to integrate with any other immigrant groups and with Canadians. They are kept intact and used as voting blocs.”

There is a lot of truth in that statement. However, I believe it is somewhat disingenuous because there are many immigrant groups—in fact, most—who are peace loving, industrious and more than willing to fit in—DESPITE the Liberals’ disastrous multicultural policies.

Consider just about any immigrant group, other than Muslims: most have been here much longer than the Muslims and we’ve NEVER seen demonstrations like the one on this video—thanks Matt. And, it seems to me, there is no other group that teaches its devotees that anyone outside of its religious affiliation is an infidel, who deserves to be killed. ET, that’s the Muslim teaching. You try to get around it—speaking of ignoring—but you can’t.

So, adjusting for the Liberals’ repulsive isolationist policies, the variable that makes the present situation so dangerous is FANATICAL ISLAM. With or without multiculturalism in Canada, the immigrants from backward, Islamic countries, which produce backward, Islamic human beings—most likely, the women in bags I mentioned—seem to be a very significant part of the problem: all on their own.

tony w - you'll find Canadian values in our constitution and rule of law.

They consist of, first, democracy, which means that the power to rule rests in the 'demos', the people. Not a kingroup, eg, a tribe; not a Ruler. The people. You'll find out how this works in the Constitution and Electoral Laws.

Then, there is equality of the individual before the law, rights within the criminal code, equality of gender, freedom of speech and so on.

These aren't unique values; I hope they aren't unique for what holds us together in this globe is our common nature as members of one species, homo sapiens. But political systems such as multiculturalism, which sets up groups with different beliefs and behaviour, separate and divide us.

I don't think that there are any uniquely Canadian values and frankly, I'm always irritated when politicians talk about them - always in the generic term. Maple sugar and hockey don't count.

To those Jews, and others, who rationalize why they don't go to counterprotests, Exhibit A (just one of many similar emails I've received today):

"I'm really at a loss....I have 2 Jewish friends who are especially near and dear to my heart. (...) the other lives in NYC , maybe 10 blocks from the Israeli consulate - where there has been at least one rally - sent her links about it. She wrote me back "I would go to that one, but I already promised XXX I would shoot pool."

"IF THEY DON'T CARE, WHY SHOULD I?? Of course I don't mean that. But it's very discouraging. You can bet that if there were any rallies here, I would make every effort to be there, Protestant though I am.

"I really think the Jewish diaspora here think that Christians are more the enemy than Muslims."

I'm having a high pressure week, what with the Jew hating jackals (made up of Mohammedans and vegan commie tards/union folk)stinking up the streets of the world. I'm not a regular at SDA and maybe my attacks on ET, the heavy weight SDA contributory champion are not appreciated. Sorry but when it comes to Islam ....she is talking out of an orifice yet undiscovered by mankind.

"Why were there not more Jewish people there to counter-protest?"

They believe that the crocodile will eat them last.

Kathy,
I knew there was that rally yesterday, and I didn't go. I am somewhat observant and I was in shul on Friday night and Saturday morning. I go to a Chabad house. There was security at the door. The dvar Torah/sermon was on the current crisis. Everyone was talking about it at the kiddush/lunch. People are very much concerned and aware. There is a sense that no matter what Israel does, we will be vilified. The emphasis is to do more mitzvot/good deeds to bring more light into the world.

ex-liberal, many blessings from an "observant" Christian! Your idea of mitzvot is actually quite radical--and very beautiful. Do it!

But I also think it's important to do outward things that let the whole community know that what the radical Muslims want is beyond the pale. IF the Jews in my community had announced a counter demonstration--which they didn't--I'd have been there.

Shalom!

ex-liberal/irwin daisy:
Ditto your remarks about ET's shocking descent into moral equivalency. Kinda reminded me of Christiane Amanpour's ridiculous CNN documentary in which she explained to the viewer-rubes that early Christianity had martyrs! Early Christian martyrdom = modern Islamic homicide bombing.

ET's new meme: Israel interfacing with "ordinary Palestinians" in Gaza, by-passing Hamas. It would be a terrific thing (assuming that there are actually sufficient numbers of "ordinary Palestinians") BUT of course it is not possible: a Gazan talking to Israel is a dead ex-collaborator. As everybody knows the Gaza strip is an islamic-totalitarian police state. You can't by-pass Hamas.

It would only be possible if Hamas (and the 4 other jihad groups) were destroyed and "Palestinians" were de-radicalized. But she's against this morally just war to destroy Hamas.
Curiously she was for the Iraq war arguing against naysayers who felt that it might inflame Islamism, but here is arguing against a morally just and necessary war because it is helping recruit "Palestinians" into Islamism (which of course they are already overwhelmingly recruited into!).

Finally, another huge contradiction I've noticed. ET dismissed my earlier observations on another thread about the Balfour Declaration, the League of Nations, the right of Jews to live anywhere between the river and the sea because it went back to the imperialist-colonliast days. AND YET, Iraq itself is a artificial imperialist construct. And on top of this, the additional artificial insertion of western liberal democracy by miliary force (which, confessing, I too favoured at one time).

Again, ET, this is what I mean when I cite your lack of street smarts.

Early Christianity did, in fact, have martyrs.

History showed that every one of the 12 apostles were persecuted and killed by civil authorities.

I believe ET's point is that Judaism and Islam are quite similar in their tribal natures.

Christianity has a different nature.

I will repeat previous examples.

1) The parable of the Good Samaritan raises one important question. Why were Samaritans considered Bad in the context of Judaism. Because they were from another tribe perhaps?

2) A New Testament principle, paraphrased: ‘There is only one race, the human race.

3) A sign in the doorway of my church. ‘This is a house of prayer for all nations." Emphasis on the All.

So, I agree with ET that the nature of Judaism is tribal and the way many are piling on and calling him a ‘hater' seems to demonstrate a tribal defence.

In a interesting way, the British were brilliant in granting a state to a tribe within a surrounding tribal populations.

Until both populations can actually get past their tribalism, nothing is going to change.

ET states we do not have Canadian Culture, it's that kind of snotty socialist priggy atitude that led to our current crisis. Denying our rich culture exists is so marxist.

I suggest we show the terrorists supporters and their appeasers some Canadian Culture let's show up naked at their next hatefest chanting in Gaelic of course. Yes ET that languge survived in Cape Bretain but is a dying language in Scotland keep spinning your lack of knowledge is astounding but not surprising.

When the Islamists and their appeasers start raving and ranting at rallies over the following facts I'll give a tinkers damn what they think.

Muslims reasons to Rally:

Darfur, when can I attend that rally? Hundreds of thousands of Africian Muslims slaughtered by the Arab Janjaweed. An Arab genocide taking place where's CUPE?

Pakistan refuses to give dignity and self-rule to Balauch, Pukhtoons and Kashmiris not India.

Muslim Morocco has occupied Western Sahara now for thirty-five years.

In four Muslim countries-Turkey, Iran, Irag, and Syria that have been occupying Kurdistan for eighty years whilst denying the sons and daughters of Saladin a country to call home.

The territory of Aceh is seeking freedom, not from the Dutch but from Muslim Indonisia.

Info found in Mr. Fatah's book Chasing a Mirage.

So terrorist Islamists' Supporters when will rallies be held for the above injustices?

ET nice try. I did mention I was afraid of the answer. When you started with Trudeau's constitution and weht on to the legal industies rule of law, laws made by lawyers for the exclusive use of lawyers, you lost me. You then went on about equality. What an absurity.

Are Europe's islamic masses starting to hint at their increasing numbers and power?

Mass Islamic prayers in front of major Italian churches... that's a new one!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/4208395/Muslim-apology-over-prayers-outside-Milan-Cathedral.html

And apparently despite the "apology", it's happened a couple of times since then.

Intimidation?

ET - have you ever been to or spent time in the Middle East?

Those of us who have appear to disagree in total with your stand on Gaza/Hamas et al.

Probably because we have context which you appear to lack on this subject.

lookout - when you refer to the other immigrant groups who integrated, you are ignoring that multiculturalism as a policy is only about 20 years old (1985m 1988) - and that is also the time when the Liberals opened the doors to so many non-Euroopean immigrants.

The rise of Islamic fascism, which began to really take hold in the West in the 1990s has affected this current influx of non-European immigration, because many of them are Muslim. The statistics show the increase in Muslim immigration in the last decade.

Taken together, the development of multiculturalism as a policy of isolation and 'old heritage retention' plus the changed immigration patterns - and you get a different attitude towards immigrants, who are not expected to assimilate but to retain their old ways.

The rise of Islamic fascism as a militant movement has co-incided with the Middle East Arab (and Persian) state's desperate attempt to retain their old tribal rule versus enabling democracy and a middle class.

me no dhimmi - what moral equivalency? I'm pointing out that both Islam and Judaism were/are tribal religions and both have textual laws, the Hadith and the halakha, which define themselves as a 'pure population' and define Others as, Others and not to be interacted with except in specific ways. The texts are there; the specific rules are there - and all you have to do is read them.
And yes, the Halakha rules DO say that an infidel who is fighting them deserves to be killed.

Yes, I believe that one can interact, constructively, with ordinary Palestinians in Gaza. You reject this. And I continue to assert that one goes after Hamas radicals, but not by destroying the life and economy of the ordinary individual...who will then become radicalized. No, I don't think this current Gaza 'war' is morally just, but I do think that the Iraq and Afghanistan war are morally just (I'm referring to Elshtain's definition of the Just War against Terrorism).

As for Balfour's declaration, my point was that because he said that it would 'solve the Jewish problem' wasn't a sufficient reason for setting up a state. ALL states are artificial constructs! There's no such thing as a 'natural state'.

No, democracy was NOT artificially inserted into Iraq. What you don't understand is that the form of a political structure is directly linked to its population size and its economic mode. In an industrial economy and with a population in the multimillions, the form of the political system HAS to be democratic. Such a form empowers the largest class, the middle class - and an industrial economy requires a middle class.

It's the tribalist refusal of the ME states to enable a middle class to emerge and be democratic - that is the cause of Islamic fascism.

ET, I seldom engage in discussion with you because I respect your knowledge in so many areas.~ bluetech

Is this what you aspired to as an educator ET? Perhaps if you tried harder to understand what people are expressing rather than immediately beating them down with esoterica you would accomplish more, and maybe learn a thing or two, assuming you have anything left to learn.

In most of the Arab world the Paleos are considered pariahs. The Egyptians and the Jordanians DO NOT WANT THEM. They are only useful as propaganda tools against the Christian West.

For all you people picking on "poor" ET...please note her own words..."lookout - I think you are ignoring my 'theories'. " Take your theories and put them you-know-where. ET. You intellectual types don't seem to get it. The first...FIRST...one's to go to hell in a dictatorship/fundementalist regime are the intelluctuals.This time around,unlike the last 2 wars,my family won't be helping save your asses,as we will be to busy saving our own from a murderous cult posing as a "religion" Remember what Stalin(i think,feel free to correct) said....religion is the opiate of the masses. And boy,has Islam got a lot of masses,and they are ALL fanatics.There is no such animal as a moderate Muslim.You either are,or you are dead(apostate).Maybe instead of spreading your theories here,you could get your hands on a Koran,Hadith,etc,and read EXACTLY what this "religion" preaches and espouses!

How did these apes get into this country? My God......

DB

"This idea of not irritating the enemy did not commend itself to me ... Good, decent, civilised people, it appeared, must never themselves strike till after they have been struck dead.

There were still months of pretended war. On the one side endless discussions about trivial points, no decisions taken, or if taken rescinded, and the rule ‘Don’t be unkind to the enemy; you will only make him angry.’ On the other, doom preparing - a vast machine grinding forward ready to break upon us"

Winston S Churchill, The Gathering Storm, 1948

Of course we still have the same groups (socialists/commies, MSM, unions, eggheads) squealing endlessly now ... as in the past.

just for laugh

This is the link to video of small demonstration in Iran in support of Gaza. The man with megaphone is shouting:
Death to Israel
Death to America
but then he gets carried away and shouts
Death to Palestine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IilZqsp4Asw&eurl=http://azarmehr.blogspot.com/

Since the mid 80s, with the same multicultural policies in effect, no other group has used the "isolate" formula to hold us hostage like the radical Muslims are doing.

So, I will hold to my thesis that, though the Liberals' multicultural policies—BTW, also very much and very deliberately anti-British and anti-Christian—are absolutely reprehensible, it is fanatic Islam which is the MUCH BIGGER problem. What’s so difficult about that?

"The rise of Islamic fascism as a militant movement has co-incided with the Middle East Arab (and Persian) state's desperate attempt to retain their old tribal rule versus enabling democracy and a middle class." - ET

Another blatant fallacy, proven again and again to be wrong. ET's assertion that Islam was not fascist until the 19th century is ridiculous. Islam has always been proto-fascist and totalitarian, with all the outward manifestations, such as racism, supremacy, nationalism (ummah), genocide, etc.

ET's pompous didactic approach to debate is ridiculous when considering she's been proven wrong over and over and has provided not a shred of evidence for her assertions, other than a book or two she's read on the subject.

And how can she give support for Palestinian democracy and their election of Hamas and not Iranian democracy?

Furthermore, democracy and sharia are opposites and not compatible. Neither is shariah compatible with Human Rights, despite the Cairo declaration. We'll see how these nascent shariah democracies in Iraq and Afghan do once the western militaries have left.

ural,

Nice quote. And very true.

You can add ET to the "squealing" group, as she's made very clear in comments.

ET

I must complement you on your work on behalf of Islam. You have smoked every smoke and mirrored every mirror. With half truths and baffelgab you have attempted to thwart every jaundiced eye cast toward your gentle pastoral sexy dessert shieks so cruelly handled by Zionist Byzantines.

No other group of immigrants are self isolating like your Muslim friends. No other group of immigrants whine for special attention like your Muslim friends. Other than their feminist anti sandstorm wear, what is it that makes you carry water for them ET?

"Honey Pot, I disagree with your assertion that "Islam is a violent oppressive barbaric death cult". Most certainly, its fundamentalist followers are all of that, but so is all fundamentalism." - ET

Et, there is an over abundance of fanatical nutbars who are followers of islam. What is that telling you about islam? The death cult of islam demands fundamentalist.

There is something really wrong with a religion that ask its followers to strap bombs on their bodies and go amongst the Jews/infidels and kill them.

When a Christian goes off the rails and kills in the name of their god, they are looked down upon by other Christians. The Christian communities stand up and denounce the killer Christian. This doesn't happen in the death cult of islam, because one they adore death, and two, to kill for their god is considered an honour in the islamic world.

ET-I've said that we have to confront Islamic fascism, both militarily and politically-Et

What in the hell do you think Israel is doing? they are confronting the jihadist militarily.

Politically we have to do what we can to make sure that the backward barbaric death cult of islam is disseminated before the imports try to normalize it here in Canada.

I was wondering why the left embraced the jihadist with such reverence. After I watched the protest I understand clearly now. They want the jihadist to do their dirty work. A pack of sneaky anti-Semites, laying in wait.

"Why were there not more Jewish people there to counter-protest?"

Because they believe that strong words and finger point by Bernie Farber will save them?

My but it is amazing to what extend some continue to distort documented facts, especially when it is not the least bit difficult to uncover them in this day and age. As strange as it may seem these Islamists are no more than devout Muslims following what is written in their Koran and Hadiths. They truly believe every word and are happy to die to carry out what they believe. They are not simply a small minority who has "hijacked" Islam. Yes, there are other Muslims who do not follow all the tenets of Islam, but that does not erase the problem. The documented history of Islam confirms that these "extremists" are nothing new or different from devout Muslims in the past.

To try to compare Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus or any other religious group with Muslims is dishonest and unsupported by evidence. There is only one group across the globe that is determined that their religion have special and superior status, and you do not need a university degree to figure out which group this is. It is not a matter of hating them, but it is imperative to know who your enemy is if you expect to win. It is also imperative to know your enemy's intentions and agenda. There is no need for special intelligence to figure this out, since our enemy continually spells it out for us: listen to what these demonstrators say and believe that they mean what they say.

Another erroneous belief is that they are only targeting Jews. Yes, Jews are a target but not by far the only one, so if I were a non Jew and a non Muslim I would not feel too complacent.

I certainly agree with all those who rightly question where are all the thought and speech control zealots? Their non action and silence when the most virulent hate speech and actions continue to take place in public across Canada removes any creditability they may have ever had. We recently had our PM stating how section 13 is necessary to prevent the spread of hate over the air waves and elsewhere, and yet this in-your-face bile is ignored by the government and police along with the HRCs, CJC and all the other so-called human rights groups. This is totally unacceptable.

ET can express her opinion and we can disagree, no problem.

I prefer to take a more-to-the-point, big-picture, moral, ethical view. After all, I'm not an atheist (anymore), unlike ET, who is one, and who therefore finds it easier to niggle and hairsplit beyond morality and ethics, beyond good and evil, not that I mind, for I, too, used to be like that, when I was in university and confused as hell.

Look, the plain, basic truth is that Israel is the Good Guy and "Palestine" (Hamas, certainly, in the context of the present war) is the Bad Guy.

I'm not interested in niggling little details about tribalism and whatnot.

Fact: Hamas started this latest war. No doubt about it.

Fact: Israel exercised "restraint" throughout the thousands of rocket and mortar launchings and hits. It never stopped; it continued. The ceasefire was unofficially broken from the beginning by Hamas, then recently officially broken by their own formal declaration. Therefore, the war was officially back on with Hamas's official re-declaration of war; Israel was no longer bound by her agreement to the now-dead ceasefire, not that it mattered (she could've retaliated right from the first unofficial violation of the ceasefire by Hamas, no problem), but now Israel is wholly in the right to retaliate and destroy the Hamas attackers.

This is the situation.

C'mon ET; accept it.

Let Israel destroy Hamas; Hamas asked for it, no doubt about it; quit niggling and hairsplitting, ok?

We can worry about other issues once Hamas is destroyed. Ok?

Nevertheless, it's an honor to lock horns with someone of ET's intellectual caliber, even if we're now at odds wrt the current topic. I'm never afraid of disagreeing with professional academics, and vever shied away from doing so when attending university.

Just heard Christopher Hitchens on Hugh Hewitt.
He's NO Israel fan, to say the least. In fact, he's an Israel-hater.
But he does state clearly and unequivocally what many of us have argued: HAMAS MUST BE DESTROYED.
There is NO chance for peace without that outcome. And that outcome can't be achieved without all out war against all the terrorist groups. And that all out war can't be fought without civilian (sic) casualties though Israel's IDF, the most moral military on the planet, will make heroic and sacrifical efforts to minimize them.
We must de-romanticize, de-Che! utterly humiliate these hamassholes -- turn them into the cowardly clowns they are, and then maybe area Arabs will lose their taste for murder and mayhem.
THEN ET can do the seminar!

Hate to be a pessimist, but I'm sure Israel will stop well short of that objective.

Nonie Darwish is from Gaza.

Author Nonie Darwish on Gaza and on the “Terrifying Global Implications of Sharia Law.

http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSLB20239

More on the "islamic prayer intimidation" situation in Italy.

Ex liberal,

I appreciate that. However, I am getting lots of feedback today from gentiles who are baffled, angry and disheartened by the apparent lack of Jewish PUBLIC interest/displays against these Nazis in our streets.

This gentile anger will soon turn to apathy and perhaps even hatred _against_ Jews themselves unless the Jewish community speaks up in PUBLIC and not just in guarded synagogues.

It is at times like this that I really appreciate all that Jesus said about the sabbath:

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"

"You hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound [has been paralyzed) for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?'"

"If one of you has a son or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull him out?"

honey pot, no, the problem in Islam is Islamic fascism, and as I've explained many times, the root cause of Islamic fascism is the dysfunctional tribal governments of the Middle East Arab and Persian states.

You can confront Islamic fascism in Gaza (Hamas) militarily without also destroying the economic capacity of the Gaza Palestinians. How? As I've said, enable the Palestinians to have a viable economy and they will, themselves, reject the fascist in their midst. That's exactly what has happened in Iraq.

It's important to remember that the Arab States are not interested in Palestinians, considering them the 'scum' of the Arab world; they certainly don't want Palestine to be a state and a democratic one at that - so, they are quite content to allow Israel to continue to settle the West Bank, inflame the Palestinians, and so on.

Your blanket condemnation of All Muslims is, in my view, incorrect. The moderate Muslims are respectable, intelligent and moral people. I may not agree with their religion - but since I'm an atheist, that's hardly surprising.

lookout, yes, I agree. As I said, the rise of Islamic fascism affected the current influx of Muslim immigration - and it is coupled with the multicultural insistence that the new immigrant retain their 'old loyalties, beliefs and behaviour' rather than collaborate and integrate with others in the new world.

So, you have an immigrant Islamic group in Canada and elsewhere, being taught by their imams who are primarily from the tribal dictatorships of the ME - of the nature of a fascist interpretation of Islam. The point is, the tribal dictatorships are refusing to deal with their tribalism and are exporting the violence and anger of a repressed internal population..outward to the rest of the world. That's why enabling democracy in states like Iraq and Afghanistan..and Palestine..is so important.

Yes, Hamas will be cut down. But only because it is the pleasure of the Sunni Saudi's to cut this Shia stained root in Gaza and weaken their demented brothers in Tehran. There is a duel of the Muslims (Shia/Sunni)that is getting warmer than the Sunni majority are comfortable with.

It is a coin toss and the west doesn't even know there is a coin being tossed that will define our future.

“I prefer to take a more-to-the-point, big-picture, moral, ethical view. After all, I'm not an atheist (anymore)…” ~ The Canadian Sentinel

Sentinel, everything you expressed subsequent to the above statement regarding good vs bad guy could easily have been espoused by an atheist (as I understand the term). I fully believe that our western “Christian” society should try harder to realize a consensus about what that word means, and I don’t mean the word atheist, I mean the word Christian.

We need to unite the West so to speak. We need to acknowledge what constitutes the Judeo-Christian culture without resorting to pigeon-holing via nomenclature. In other words, we need to recognize that there is a broader definition of what a “Christian” is. We need to allow a person who has never seen the inside of a church to think of himself as a “cultural” Christian. And yes, that should include an atheist, otherwise we’d be just as narrow minded as we’re saying the other side is.

Defending Hamas or making excuses for their actions is beyond the realm of reason. Anyone capable of reasoned thought must realize a country has to react to being attacked. Hamas attacked Isreal, Israel must defend herself and her people. What's so difficult to understand?

Hamas wishes to play the victim, and we have bozos in this country defending them, that's the part that's so difficult to fathom.

We, the great unwashed, can't begin to analyze the behavior of the brainwashed followers of the cult of Islam. ET may be the only one who seems to think she has a clear handle on it. It must be from years of research and study.

BTW Honey Pot, I agree with your take on the subject. I worry what some of the anti-Israeli, anti-Canada, anti-US protesters who take to our streets are telling their children.
Having someone on a street, in a city, in our country free to tell a Jewish child he will "fu**in' die", is sure not a good sign of things to come.

"honey pot, no, the problem in Islam is Islamic fascism"-ET

...yes, and islam is chock full of islamic fascist, to the point of no return.

"the root cause of Islamic fascism is the dysfunctional tribal governments of the Middle East Arab and Persian states."-ET

...no, the root cause of islamic fascism is the barbaric and oppressive teachings of islam.

All people came from tribes, clans or whatever. Why does one people evolve and another stay in the barbaric stages of evolution. It takes living under a barbaric oppressive culture to do that. islam is an oppressive and barbaric culture which teaches its followers to hate and kill people who are unwilling to believe in their god.

irwin daisy,

I'm a "big tent" type of guy. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egghead

ISRAEL TARGETS GAZA TUNNELS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bON0eMJDc9c&eurl

Ignoring the bias of the reporter who, at the outset, starts the piece off by referring to Hamas' arms as "weapons of resistance", Gazans it shows are even "raising cattle in their homes" 1:42 of the video. Humorous in a way.

ET: "The root cause of Islamic fascism is the dysfunctional tribal governments of the Middle East Arab and Persian states."

Surely you have noticed the behaviour of Islamists in Indonesia. And in the Phillippines. And India. And, of course Nigeria. China, too. How about Thailand -- are Thai Muslims from the Middle East?

No, they're not. So what do they, and their remarkably similar attitudes and actions, have in common? Hint: it's not that they're from the Middle East Arab and Persian states.

Kathy, how much of the low Jewish turnout can be ascribed to simple fear for their lives - knowing they would be outnumbered, knowing the crowd would be riled up, and not really confident that the police had the will or the ability to hold a truly angry bunch of lunatics at bay.

honey pot - the change in economic and political structure is dependent on the environment, in particular, the 'carrying capacity' of the environment. If it is a rich ecology, then it can support a large and growing population.

This situation existed only in Europe - the richest biome on the planet - with a thick rich soil, temperate climate, regular rainfall, and plants and animals that could be domesticated. This led to large population growth, which in turn, required technological innovation, and ideological change that promoted individualism and questioning and exploration. That's what led the West to move out of tribalism. It's not inherent in any people!

canadian sentinel- being an atheist doesn't mean that one is amoral and without ethics!

Kathy according to a Jew on CTV they were busy at the Israel Consulate having a sit in to condemn Israel's aggressiion. I'm not sure what he was blathering on about but he seemed more concerned as a Jew with the people of Palestine than the Jews in Israel. Watch their looped media reports and you can assertain what he meant, me I'm just confused.

“As I've said, enable the Palestinians to have a viable economy and they will, themselves, reject the fascist in their midst. That's exactly what has happened in Iraq.”~ET

How does that principle apply to Saudi or Iran? Do they have viable economies, have they rejected fascism? How about trans-war Germany, did they have a viable economy (and don’t give me esoteric bs on this one, we’re comparing to Gaza), did they reject fascism? Italy? Venezuela?

“Your blanket condemnation of All Muslims is, in my view, incorrect. The moderate Muslims are respectable, intelligent and moral people. I may not agree with their religion - but since I'm an atheist, that's hardly surprising”~ET

The blanket condemnation that you’re inferring here ET is a manifestation of your desire to hear exactly that. Try to understand what the posters are actually expressing rather than picking apart their use of the language. There is no blanket condemnation of people, humans, individuals; only condemnation of actions or stated intent for actions

Honey Pot and others, you are wasting your time trying to present ET with evidence or facts when the subject is Israel (Jews) or just plain Jews.

According to her the problem is Islamic fascism, but the truth is that all these Islamic fascists are simply devout Muslims. ET and her fellow travellers are unable to grasp this fact or the fact that these devout Muslims mean what they say and are happy to die for what they believe. As to what they believe it is in black and white for anyone to read, so no, they are not misinterpreting Islam. While they do not represent every single Muslim, their numbers are anything but small and for them the "moderate" Muslims are heretics and/or apostates. This is why our government is irresponsible not to stop all further Muslim immigration for the time being at least.

ET, if you were asked "are you a Christian" while conversing with your hosts in the following places what would you answer?

Mumbai, Taipei, Dar es Salaam, Tel Aviv, Biloxi, Belfast, your home City/Town

"honey pot - the change in economic and political structure is dependent on the environment, in particular, the 'carrying capacity' of the environment. If it is a rich ecology, then it can support a large and growing population."-et

Can you explain to me how Israel could take a piece of desert barren land, no bigger than a tampax on the map, and turn it into a thriving ecological and economic miracle?

Palestine is right beside it, and their number one export is terrorism. How many welfare cheques does the world have to send to Palestine before they can get their shit together? You could send them each a million dollars and they would do nothing but buy bombs with it. That is what their god wants them to do. The backward inbred hillbillies are doomed, unless islam is dragged into this century.

How do you do that? you ridicule islam, you point out its oppressive and barbaric nature, at every given opportunity.

Et, they worship a war mongering pedophile. I don't see much hope for them.

Kathy, you asks a valid question as to where were all the Jews at these demonstrations? I know that I do not reside anywhere near where they have taken place, but I know that Canadian Jews have attended to show support for Israel. Why were their numbers not much greater I have no answer. But the absence of our "official" Jews along with their silence in the face of blatant anti-Semitism is more of a reflection on them than anyone else.

So Kathy and others, I also ask the same question, and I ask a second question. Where were all the moderate Muslims? Why were they not out en masse to protest how Islam was being presented? In my opinion the onus is on them, if we are to be convinced that these demonstrators do not represent Muslims in Canada.

Penny, you forgot the main thing these genocides had in common: dead bodies.

I didn't forget, but, thanks for adding the stats to my comment, Shannow. They don't matter a damn to the Canadian gentile lefty union moron with the "Stop Palestinian Genocide" sign. The definition and historic circumstances of genocide don't matter a damn to these history and logic challenged lefty cretins either, my point. Worse, they don't matter a damn to the self-loathing liberal Jews that dominate the media and alleged right's causes. If Iran turned Israel into glass tomorrow morning which is the logical conclusion of this whole terrorist horror there is a whole element of western Jews that could/would blame Israel.

We have entered an age of hubris, stupidity and Orwellian falsifications.

I hope the Israelis pound to salt the bas***rds that have been with impunity targeting their civilians. They better do it now before the liberal Messiah of moral equivocations hits the WH.

One of these days, and it's coming just based on future US weakness, we will get another horrendous terrorist attack and the spineless weasels on the left that support terrorism with their hubris and stupidity will get their comeuppance. The murderous nihilism of terrorists isn't going away. As Christopher Hitchens noted...it's insanity believing that the root cause of terrorism is resisting it.

ET, I realize you aren't defending the behavior of terrorists, but, I no longer care about tribal root causes. It really doesn't matter any more. Like the tribal Sicilian mafia that got nailed in the US, the academics of their dysfunction mattered not to juries.

There has been a pairing over the recent years of liberals and terrorists which can no longer be discounted. Both elements are fascist, anti-democracy, anti-human creeps at heart. Both have a vision of controlling by any manner possible the societies that they reside in.

Interesting discussion so far.

Given that Hamas seeks the "obliteration of Israel" and that all "talks are a waste of time"; I would fully expect that the guns will continue to talk until Israel eliminates the threat.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Why would any nation under international law; let an extra-territorial governmental group set up missile launching sites and willy nilly to randomly violate another's national airspace to lob rockets into neighbouring territory.

If Hamas doesn't like getting shot to pieces, the answer is to stop firing missiles. But seeing that their Charter mandates what amounts to 'total war' with Israel, one would expect the pounding to continue until Hamas is eliminated from the equation.

It seems to me that the IDF/IAF are in no mood to accept anymore of the 6000 odd missiles dropped into their backyard.

http://english.aljazeera.net/ new...4140674153.html

Even Al-Jazeera is acknowledging that "Scores of rockets have hit southern Israel since the offensive got under way."

Of course nobody likes to see civilians take unearned punishment, but then it is Hamas stock piling their mosques with weaponry similar to the "Red Mosque" style in Islamabad, then the Hague Conventions kick in:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_...ury/ hague02.asp

Article 23

Besides the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially prohibited:--

To employ poison or poisoned arms;

To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;

To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;

TO DECLARE THAT NO QUARTER WILL BE GIVEN;

To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury;

To make improper use of a flag of truce, the national flag, or military ensigns and the enemy's uniform, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention;

To destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war.

Seeing that Hamas seeks the obliteration of Israel; Hamas would be in violation of Article 23 of the Hague Conventions as their charter essentially mandates that NO QUARTER WILL BE GIVEN.

Cheers

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht, Commander in Chief

Frankenstein Battalion
2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von
Baden(Rheinisches) Nr.7(Saarbrucken)
Knecht Rupprecht Division
Hans Corps
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group "True North"

How long can ET continue to ignore the obvious? How long will she continue to cling to 'root causes' to explain what is obvious to those with eyes to see?

Gaza is merely a symptom, a diversion from the 'root cause' of world wide turmoil: Islam.

The seething masses we are seeing in Western Europe and particularly Britain, have no real 'connection' to Gaza and for the most part they are not themselves 'immigrants'.

They are the sons and daughters or even grandsons and grand-daughters of immigrants who have been radicalized by the agents of Islam who are supplied, funded and supported by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Pakistan.

Supplying Gazans with food, electricity, education or anything else will not change the 'root cause' of Islam, which is to dominate throughout the world.

To suggest anything else is to willfully ignore reality. The alligator is at our door.

glasnost - that's the point; saudi arabia and iran aren't democracies with a free middle class in control. They are two-classes, with an elite (tribal) control and no middle class.

No, trans-war Germany (ie, between WWI and II) did not have a viable economy. Italian fascism was an anti-socialist agenda (the global world or pan-socialism) in favour of nationalism. You might find Paxton's 'Anatomy of Fascism' of interest; its introduction discusses the development of Italian fascism.

Islamic fascism is another version of fascism and I've outlined what I believe to be its causes many times.

When the international community puts troops in harms way to PROTECT ALL Israeli's from Hamas attacks then they have a right to insist on a ceasefire. Until then they have the right to shut-up and watch the Israeli's defend themselves using whatever force they deem necessary to fix their security problem.

Israel's response is indeed brutal and the effect on the non-radical population in Gaza is heartbreaking. But if the world wants Israel to back off then step up and put their own blood on the line.

My guess is that will never happen. The rest of the world has much less appetite to stop brainwashed teenage suicide bombers than the IDF. I seriously doubt they would be equal to the task.

It's only through intense unflagging engagement that extreme elements in Gaza can be de-fanged. That's a lesson from Iraq. Another lesson is that the general population must reach a point where it rejects extremism - thus exposing radical safehavens and cleasing communities of their bullying influence. Those two lessons will never be realized in Gaza outside the line of fire. So it's either the IDF or everyone else - but either way it must be a fight fought to win.

Thank you ET for your comments on Iraq. I totally agree. It's good to see a long victimized society choose a tough path to progress over remaining mired in past history. GWB and co. did good to stay with it.

We really owe gratitude to Mississauga Matt for facing the howling mob and getting this video for us. We can't rely on our mainstream media to do it. Can you see al-CBC showing this on their Sunday report tonight? No..better not; it would spook the sheepfold.

But from the looks of things, the Canuckistani sheepfold needs to start getting spooked, because this looks to be just the beginning of more trouble in the erstwhile "peaceable kingdom". The sheep appear to have invited some very nasty types into the sheepfold. Thank goodness for free speech which allows us to understand what is going on among us.

Toronto may be gaining "world class city" status in a way it didn't want to contemplate before. It's now right up there with London and Beirut.

ET SAID:“As I've said, enable the Palestinians to have a viable economy and they will, themselves, reject the fascist in their midst. That's exactly what has happened in Iraq.”~ET
GLASNOST SAID:How does that principle apply to Saudi or Iran? Do they have viable economies, have they rejected fascism? How about trans-war Germany, did they have a viable economy (and don’t give me esoteric bs on this one, we’re comparing to Gaza), did they reject fascism? Italy? Venezuela

ET SAID: glasnost - that's the point; saudi arabia and iran aren't democracies with a free middle class in control. They are two-classes, with an elite (tribal) control and no middle class.

ET, what does “that’s the point” mean to you when you say it? Is it your first point, your revised point, the Land of Point?

Web poll:
http://www.israel-vs-palestine.com/gz/

The pro-Israel side needs support!

I have read all the words ET has written in the past two days. The only one I can honestly say I agree with is "But, our multiculturalism , which isolated groups and prevents their collaboration and integration, is a disaster." The rest is pure academic speak.

Justthinkin 6:56 PM - couldn't have said it better.

glasnost - It depends on the questioner. I'd either say that 'it's none of your business' or that 'I'm an atheist'.

When I said 'that's the point', I'm referring to my point of view.

honey pot - Israelis came, in large part, from Western Europe and brought industrial technology that had been developed in Europe, with them. The ME lands at the time, were operating within a pre-industrial agriculture - a 'sustenance' agriculture which is based around local small-scale gardens and fields (non-industrially worked), and small animal care such as sheep and goats. A very traditional southern mediterranean style of peasant agriculture. It is capable of supporting only a 'medium' size population. Israelis brought in western style industrial technology.

I disagree with the rest of your post, honey pot.

penny - I think that 'root causes' of Islamic fascism are vital. The Clinton administration ignored these roots causes; it hoped that simply maintaining 'stability' in the ME, which it did by propping up the tribal regimes, would solve the problem. Instead, it increased into rabid Islamic fascism. Bush has attacked the root causes of this fascism, and has worked to install a democracy, with a viable middle class, in an Arab state. That's the most important confrontation against Islamic fascismm that is possible.

The other confrontation that is necessary is for the West to reject multiculturalism and to insist that all immigrants follow the rule of law and equal rights etc, and common culture, of the West.

But, as I've also said, the Israeli-Palestinian situation is ONE factor in the ME. Islamic fascism is another - and can't be considered as the cause of the I-P situation. And Iranian imperialism is a third factor. The situation there is not black and white but complex. In each of the three areas.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054596.html

"Sixteen days into Operation Cast Lead, the IDF says there has been a dramatic drop in the ability of Hamas to launch rockets against Israel.

Currently, the launches have dropped by 50% compared to the first day of the Gaza operation.

A total of 22 rockets fired from the Gaza Strip struck Israel on Sunday, one of which exploded in an empty school playground in the northern Negev city of Ashdod. There were no casualties in the incident.

...The government announced a week ago Saturday that it had approved call-up of tens of thousands of reservist soldiers. The announcement was made almost simultaneously with the launch of the Gaza ground incursion, aimed at halting rocket fire on Israel's southern communities."

Given the above news, I would expect the Izzy's are going to dislodge Hamas in a more permanent way.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424929296&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

JPost.com » Special Reports » Confronting Hamas » Article
Jan 12, 2009 0:17 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 2:47
'Hamas a black and bloody militia'
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

A Fatah official in Ramallah on Sunday launched a scathing attack on Hamas and described its leaders as "criminals."

Speaking to The Jerusalem Post on condition of anonymity, the Fatah official denounced Hamas as a "black and bloody militia" that was responsible for the "catastrophe" in the Gaza Strip.

The official warned that failure to crush Hamas completely would undermine Fatah and pave the way for the collapse of moderate Arab regimes.

He said that Hamas was fighting on behalf of Iran and Syria - the only two countries that have been supplying the movement with weapons and money.

In a separate development, a leaflet distributed by Fatah in Ramallah accused Hamas of targeting dozens of Fatah members in the Gaza Strip. It said many Fatah activists and supporters have been executed by Hamas militiamen in the past two weeks.

The leaflet said that the Hamas government had placed hundreds of Fatah members under house arrest out of fear that they would exploit the IDF operation to stage a coup against Hamas.

In addition, the leaflet said, Hamas militiamen have shot many Fatah members in the knees to make sure that they won't be able to participate in any anti-Hamas activities. The leaflet called on Abbas to fire the Fatah leadership in the Gaza Strip for allegedly failing to defend its members against Hamas."

So the allegation is that Hamas is putting Fatah members under house arrest and knee-capping them or just 'dispensing with them'.

Hmm that just might fit Article 23 above:

To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;

To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury;

This should keep the lawyers busy for quite some time, if there is substance to the allegations.

Cheers

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht, Commander in Chief

Frankenstein Battalion
2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von
Baden(Rheinisches) Nr.7(Saarbrucken)
Knecht Rupprecht Division
Hans Corps
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group "True North"

When the international community puts troops in harms way to PROTECT ALL Israeli's from Hamas attacks then they have a right to insist on a ceasefire.
- Martin B

This would be a disaster. See Lebanon where UNIFIL, which was supposed to do this, instead shielded Hizbollah from Israel and turned a blind eye toward Hiz's re-arming.

There's no "international community" anyway. The EU is anti-Israel. The UN is actually jihadist totally under the sway of the 59-member OIC. They actually have mourning sessions on the anniversary of the 1947 partition, and allow maps sans Israel to be displayed.

Dear Israel: F**k the so-called international community. Stop your ears and kill all the jihadists.

Mississauga Matt, what a great job. I finally watched that video. I've been putting it off for fear my bloodpressure would hit the moon. Not so, I actually found it hilarious. They are all a bunch of moronic actors. I liked the Jewish fellow that couldn't keep a straight face and riled the speaker. Course, a mob of animals like that can be stirred to greater fetes if allowed.

My reinforced conclusion is Israel go get them and when you finish them off in Gaza come and get the rest in Toronto.

dolly: Is your name a link to a website? If so, it's not working.

Kathy,
I know your frustration. Even if it was held on a Sunday I am not sure many Jews would attend a counter demonstration. Jews tend to attend solidarity rallies.

The United Jewish Appeal Walk with Israel event is always attended by thousands of Toronto's Jews as well as non-Jewish supporters of Israel. The event last Thursday at Beth Tzedec was overflowing onto the street, my daughter could hardly get in. My anecdotal experience is that not many Jews show up at counter demonstrations.

I mentioned what I was doing on Saturday, not so much to say that Jews aren't going because it is Shabbos, but to say that many Jews may be doing what they think is their part: putting on tefillin, lighting Shabbos candles, giving to charity, studying Torah
(check out the Chabad site War in Gaza special coverage)

I personally am not so certain what standing out in front of a screaming crowd will do. And I have been at enough pro-Israel events at Queen's park since 9/11 or in front of Indigo's on Bloor or in front of the Danish embassy during the cartoon controversy, to know that we are few in numbers.

I am grateful to you and Miss. Matt for attending and recording. Hopefully there will not be another such rally, but if there is, I hope to go and see you there.

Ironic that in gun-control mad Toronto, and previously in Montreal, you can openly display a terrorist organizations flag whose most prominent symbol is an AK47. Where are all the gun control types?

Bush had something to work with in Iraq. There was an educated population who's main goal in life was to stay out of the way of the murderous government.
The only education in Gaza is jew hatred and the civilian population is every bit as murderous as the government. Opening the border isn't going to change that. It will just get a lot more Israelis killed. The Gazans don't want their own country, they want the one next door.
If the jews got up tomorrow and moved to Texas, in twenty years Israel would look like Gaza today (see any African country the British left) and the jews would be getting blamed for it because they took some sacred spoon that Mohammed used to scratch his back.
The root cause of the I/P conflict is Israels' refusal to die. Iranian money gives them the ability to kill jews. The motivation is grown at home.
No greenhouse in the world is going to change that.

The other confrontation that is necessary is for the West to reject multiculturalism

In an irony of ironies the West rejects multi-culturalism at every airport. Think about that, most of us with our heads screwed on get it. It's the only practical part of rejecting multi-culturalism that our elite dolts in government are fullfilling for us. Even the stupidest lefty doesn't want security checks dismantled. Even the Useful Idiot at the USW union with his anti-Israel placard understands who most likely will blow up his plane, but, the poor fool is trapped in lefty union herd think. History is littered with these people.

9/11 faded fast with the left, but, those are the same Big Lie people that sanitized Stalin because of their egos right up until the 30-million-or-more-dead end of his reign and beyond. No surprise that a lot of them were the same western Jewish liberals that are sanitizing Hamas via their egos with moral equivocations and are now denegrating Israel's efforts to survive.

It is the 1930's all over again. The same cast of mindless moral degenerates in the west, the same hubris, the same anti-Semitism all over again. Sadly, we are all forced to repeat history again because of the stupidity of our times.

Me No Dhimmi, I agree totally. It would be a real schmozzle bozzle. Israel has no trust of the international community for good reason and there's no faith that Israel would be adequately protected.

That's why there will be no ceasefire until Israel gets the job done. My point is really that the international community only gets a say on IDF Gaza Ops if they were willing to put themselves in harms way. But there's not a snowball's chance in that happening so the IDF will push on to completion.

The really sad thing is the terrible collateral damage. But until the ordinary Gazan works against Hamas operations within their neighbourhoods that will continue. They need an "Anbar Awakening" and that won't come without substantial sacrifice. Then lasting progress will be possible on both sides.

That re-inforces my idea of the unions ulianov.
They really don't want us to speak or think for ourselves.
Just get in line and shaddup, eh?
Oh, and pay your dues.

ET wrote:

Fred from BC - nope, I disagree with you. You work with the local people. I'm advocating a two-leveled approach. That is, Israel continues to provide the basic services to Gaza of water, electricity and gas. Yes, that gets to the Hamas followers as well, but the point is, you don't include the non-Hamas with the Hamas. This means that the economy of Gaza can exist; the economy requires those basic energy and water supplies.

Then, you also open the borders to the economy; the Gaza economy is heavily based on exporting 100% of its fresh fruit/vegetables to Israel. If you end this - by cutting off electricity and water and closing the borders, then, you drive the people into the arms of Hamas.

The agenda has to be focused on: How do we reduce the inflation and power of Islamic fascism? There are two ways and they are not 'either-or' but MUST operate together. One is to fight back against militant fascist attacks. The other, hand in hand, is to enable democracy and a middle class economy in the fascist-domain areas. Both must go together. Not one OR the other. BOTH.

-------------

I understand your point, but you are still hopelessly naive if you think you can do this without putting people on the ground *inside* Gaza, sorry. The act of "opening the borders" (not that they aren't already open for food, water, electricity and humanitarian aid, right?) by itself would be totally useless without some kind of force on the ground to make sure that Hamas doesn't simply seize everything coming across the border and redistribute it to their own supporters (as they are doing now, in case you didn't know).
If this force isn't large enough and well-armed enough to defend itself and enforce their objective, they will be either ignored or killed by Hamas, period. These people are animals, ET...and the residents of Gaza are completely under their control, so don't expect any help there.

I wish there was another solution, too.

But there isn't...not with this bunch.

Has anyone ever seen "new" and "ET" at the same time? Curious.

ET. Jan 11 at 8.04

1. “You can confront Islamic fascism in Gaza (Hamas) militarily without also destroying the economic capacity of the Gaza Palestinians. How? As I've said, enable the Palestinians to have a viable economy and they will, themselves, reject the fascist in their midst. That's exactly what has happened in Iraq.”

Did Germany, Italy and Japan learn democratic values through economic intervention of the rest of the world?

That is not what is happening in Iraq. One tribe is slowly being eliminated or beaten down. Until their value system changes (which involves complete redefining of their religious beliefs) they will remain a danger to all around them.

It is not economics, it is civilizations and culture that has to develop. You even admit as much when you point to the failure of the development of a middle class as being a source of the problem. Economic failure seems to be unique to tribal worlds. Look at Africa. The failure of the middle class to develop in Muslim worlds is not because of the failure of economics in those worlds (though Sharia law certainly makes business hard); the failure of the middle class to develop comes strictly from the tribalism and religion that is interpreted in a manner that keeps everybody down. Fix the tribalism and the culture and the rest will follow.

As I look at my world map in front of me, I see several parts of the world that are full of productive capability that were bound in tribalism when the “Western” world discovered them, or that are still bound in tribalism waiting to be set free by an economic productivity surge. But it seems to me, that what held them back or what is holding them back was/is their tribal culture. Fix that and the economic miracle that permits the growth of a middle class will occur.

2. “Your blanket condemnation of All Muslims is, in my view, incorrect. The moderate Muslims are respectable, intelligent and moral people. I may not agree with their religion - but since I'm an atheist, that's hardly surprising.”

Being an atheist you might think all religions are the same and can be learned by reading the Holy books. They are not the same. They can’t be learned by reading the Holy books. Like the Canadian constitution that you referred to as being part of our culture, much of a religions value system is unwritten, based on precedent. Just because the structure of the Muslim Holy Books seems similar to the Judaic Holy Books (and I don’t know if they are), does not mean by any shape of the imagination that the religions are similar. Their “constitutional development” will be vastly different and their practise will be different. What people here are saying is that the Muslim religion does not allow the development of a moderate branch, whatever that might be. Whether that will be the case in the future has yet to be seen, but for now, I tend to agree with what most of the other commentators are saying.

3. I do agree that multiculturalism in Canada has been bad for us. However, I feel that it started much before 1985. I think it started with Expo 67. We needed to be different from Americans and the folks in charge created the myth of the Canadian patchwork quilt or cultural mosaic. The rest is Liberal history.

I like Mark Steyn's comment: "Congratulations to the CJC on helping build a tolerant hate-free Canada. In 20 years' time, I hope there'll still be enough Jews in Toronto and Montreal to man the CJC offices. Or maybe by then the Canadian Jewish Congress will be operating out of a PO box in the Turks and Caicos."

I don't agree that Islam is a death cult, but I do think that Marxism is one, and it's the unholy alliance of the two that is at least part of the problem.

"Israelis brought in western style industrial technology"-ET

Yes, they did, and their goal was to build a viable and sustainable economy.

Why did the Palestine's not do the same? Not like they haven't received a large hunk of welfare cheques from the rest of the world to get on with it.

It is because their very existence is knotted to a barbaric oppressive hate mongering god, who demands they kill Jews.

canadian sentinel- being an atheist doesn't mean that one is amoral and without ethics!
Posted by: ET at January 11, 2009 8:38 PM

-- Calm down, ET- I didn't say what you think I said.

But I've been where you are now, meaning I've been an atheist in the past, so I can understand the way you think. And this way of thinking prevents you from seeing the obvious, that Israel is the Good Guy and "Palestine" is the Bad Guy.

That's why you cling to the whole "tribalism" thing and whatnot, the complicated academic stuff, rather than making a realistic moral judgement based on the facts of the present day, notwithstanding long-ago facts.

It's obvious that Israel is the innocent victim acting in self-defence, and that "Palestine" is the aggressor. Please stop ignoring the facts that prove it, and accept the obvious reality- it's not metaphysical- it's observable and can be processed in the mind with reason and logic, something which I've yet to be convinced you're allowing yourself to do wrt this issue, apparently preferring to complicate it all, effectively paralyzing your ability to make a moral judgement, with all the academic stuff.

Surely you're not afraid to make a moral judgement? Does atheism as an ideology prevent one from making moral judgements? After all, morality is subjective and a lot like religion. It requires belief and faith, as does religion, and, as atheism rejects that sort of stuff as "metaphysical" and unscientific, one can understand why you may choose to shy away from making any moral judgements about Israel-"Palestine" based on the actual facts of the present day.

I'll repeat: Israel: Good Guy. "Palestine": Bad Guy. Don't you agree?

Me No Dhimmi, had my hardrive cleaned because of a nasty virus a while back. Decided to forgo links. Think it's fixed now. Thanks.

"I don't agree that Islam is a death cult,"

- nv53

It's not a death cult, if you're a pious, strictly observant Muslim. Or, if you're a non-Muslim willing to convert, or accept dhimmitude and pay jizya.

Otherwise, yes, it very much is a death cult. Quran 9:5 abrogates every moderate, or less violent verse before it (125 in all), such as "there's no compulsion in religion" etc.

Historical evidence shows that Muslims butchered 270,000,000, including 80,000,000 Hindus since Mohammad. No other death cult comes close to those numbers. (Jamie Glaven, Andrew Bostom)

Muslim terrorist protesters attacking the Police in London. What's worse, is the Police are running away like pansies, while a girl stands up for them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp-lwSe2llg&eurl=http://ibloga.blogspot.com/

That's what creates more terrorists.

rroe - the development of a middle class IS an economic infrastructure.

[And Germany and Italy were both democracies before WWII; their economies became shambles in the WWI-II era).

The economic structure of democracy requires a middle class, for the democratic system empowers the middle class, who are the most powerful economic group. Tribalism is also a particular economic structure; it sets up a political system that empowers one or more tribes as authoritative.

In Iraq, they have set up a democratic system, which operates by a constitution (not a tribal set of rules); rule of law as authority (not tribal elders as authorities) and this power to decide on the government, is within the hands of the people - not the tribal rulers. It is NOT, I repeat, NOT, one tribe beating another down. It is the disappearance of tribal dominance and the transfering of this authority to the general population. This takes TIME, but the infrastructure of a middle class is there.

I fully agree with you about the problems of tribalism. But I don't think that you understand that tribalism is not simply a 'cultural mode'; it is an economic structure. In a tribal organization, the authority to make economic and political decisions rests with a tribe, either its elders or, in a larger population, with the elders/rulers of one tribe. This is an economic system, for this Set of Rulers controls the economy, the land, the capital, the resources.

You cannot 'fix' a tribal organization by, somehow, removing the tribal power on its own..for it is an economic organization. You have to, while you are enabling a different political system to emerge (democratic rather than tribal)..enable a different economic system to emerge - which gives control of the capital, resources, economic decisions - to the people, who can own land, resources, capital, and make decisions about these resources.

The two 'systems' (political and economic) MUST change together because they both operate within ONE type of infrastructure.

My being an atheist does not mean that I conclude that all religions are identical! After all, being an atheist does not mean that one loses one's capacity to reason and evaluate. What I am saying, is that both the Islamic and Judaic religions are tribal, are very similar in their treatment of themselves as privileged and Others as non-privileged. This can be found in their cutoms and texts (hadith and halakhic). I suggest you read both. The orthodox/conservative members of Judaism feel as superior to the non-members of their group as do the orthodox Muslims.

It is also a mistake to merge Islamic FASCISM with the Islamic religion - as many who consider that Islam is 'fascist' do. Islamic fascism has a specific economic and political cause (that tribalism).

And, it is also an error to assert that Islam cannot change, cannot function within moderation, because there are many people who define themselves as Muslim and who are moderates. There is also a great deal of research, debates and conferencing being done by Islamic scholars who insist on interpretation of the Islamic texts and who reject the violence in some of the texts as later historical additions.

Yes, I agree that multiculturalism may have started before the 80s but it became official and legal policy in the 80s; that's what's important.

honey pot - If you and your family and grandparents etc, have been farming in a particular way, ie, the local village peasant style, for many years, you don't suddenly decide to 'bring in' industrial tactics. People don't switch strategies that rapidly. That's because the structure of operation is totally different.

An industrial technology, first, requires money for the equipment. Local agricultural production doesn't provide that money.
Second, it operates within a different land base - larger land is farmed rather than the few acres of a peasant farm. A peasant farmer can't purchase and sustain more land.
Third, it also requires a larger consumer population to purchase those goods - and pre WWII Palestine wasn't a 'growth' economy.

canadian sentinel - heh - no, being an atheist doesn't prevent me from making moral judgments. Maybe YOUR style of atheism did just that, but MY style certainly is quite different.

The reason I focus on tribalism is because it is a CURRENT infrastructure of the ME, and is the main cause of Islamic fascism. You cannot have a massive population in the millions deprived of political and economic power - and expect no reaction. The reaction is Islamic fascism and it is being exported from what ought to be an internal fight in the ME Arab and Persian states, to I-P and to the West.

My moral and intellectual judgments - and, unlike you in your atheist era, I am able to make them - is that Israel is at fault for its West Bank settlements, (and Israel has no intention of giving up the West Bank); its refusal to enable and acknowledge a Palestinian state, and now, for its economic destruction of Gaza.

I maintain that what 'ought to' have been done is to enable a Palestinian state by dealing only with the local people. This would have required dealing with the faults of the Palestinian and Arab side in a unique way - ie - by dealing instead with setting up close economic ties with the local Palestinians.

The Palestinian/Arab side errors are primarily Arab. Arab states do not want and have never wanted a Palestinian state or democracy. They do not want a democratic arab state in their midst because they are trying to hold on to tribal political structures. That's why they've exported Islamic fascism into this situation. It suits them for both reasons.

Then, as noted before, Arabs are NOT 'all alike'; they have their hierarchies as do all other ethnicities and the Palestinians are viewed as 'scum'.
Then, there[s Arafat and Fatah - deeply corrupt and not interested in a Palestinian state. That's why the Palestinians voted for Hamas, because of Fatah corruption.

After Arafat died, Israel ought to have stepped up the economic links with the local people. And on leaving Gaza, it ought to have set up deep economic bonds with the Gaza people. Not shut off the water and hydro, not closed the border, but instead, worked with the people. Not with Hamas; With the people.

So - as I've said, it's not the simplistic reduction that you come up with of black and white. It's complex and there are errors on both sides.

Muslim terrorist protesters attacking the Police in London. What's worse, is the Police are running away like pansies, while a girl stands up for them: That's what creates more terrorists.
Posted by: irwin daisy at January 12, 2009 8:43 AM

Yes indeed. Probe, test, observe infidel reaction, take note of infidel timidity -- that 3rd world scum have a hate-speech exemption (only whitey, only Christians hate), escalate.
It'a not the bogus cycle of violence but a SPIRAL OF VIOLENCE.

Be clear: these are not spontaneous eruptions. This is a world-wide campaign run by Muslim Brotherhood proxies like the Muslim student unions, CAIR, et al.

Concerning the bogus claim that a big problem is that the Arabs in Gaza lack industry and a good economy, this flies in the fact of the following facts. When Israel removed by force its own citizens from Gaza in order to turn it over to the Arabs, these same citizens had a thriving economy that they left behind. The Arabs immediately set about destroying it, greenhouses, fruit trees, vines and crops along with the buildings. Even the surrounding Arab countries have been offered economic assistance (technology and know-how instead of just giving money) from Israel that they reject. This includes Egypt which has a so-called peace treaty with Israel. Israel has developed improved breeds of the local livestock, including camels for dairy, but the Arabs refuse everything because it comes from Jews. Their economic situation is of their own making.

I have been reading this with interest, lurking it might be called, but lurking only because I have nothing significant to add to the discussion. However I do not wish to remain totally invisible in the Silent Majority so I would like to register my opinion.
Whether the reasons and history are simple or complex it is clear to me that Hamas and it's supporters are the cause of the Gaza conflict. I support Israel in it's efforts and I admire their strategies and constraint.
There are some media reports now of Rallies to support the Israelis, most notably in Germany. One German interviewed on CTV said words to the effect that they (the German people) meant Never Again and that he for one will not tolerate the Hamas terrorist acts against the Jews.
Kathy Shaidle and Matt, I think your efforts were worthwhile and your dissapointment has become a call to self-examination for the rest of us. What are we prepared to do here in Canada, there are lessons from the past to be used here.
I will try to live my principles and find the courage to expose myself to risk. Yes, I do think rallies are risky, especially on this topic.

It isn't as black and white as you outline, alain.

Here's a link
Greenhouses in Gaza

I’m not sure why the lefty hacks aren’t focused more on the global warming issue in Gaza and the West Bank? Have you seen some of the pollution and garbage lying about?

Personally I think they should be lobbying more for solar panels and wind farms and getting ahead of the trend. Then once Hama’s trades in its guns for food, everyone will be on the same playing field, power and all.

ET on this topic your thinking is a product of the looney Left. Not only do you continue to demonstrate your absolute ignorance of Islam, but you refuse to educate yourself on the matter. You insist on trying to excuse this ideology by misinformation and distortions. You fail to grasp that it is the ideology which unites all Muslims, not just the Arabs. I have never disputed that not all Muslims adhere fully to Islam, and we are constantly told that the big majority of Muslims are peace loving and respectful of other religions. So where are they? Their large numbers should be turning out to counter-protest this "minority" of "extremists" in their mist? And how about explaining to all of us the reason for the economic situation in Gaza. Keep in mind that the Arabs there inherited what I already mentioned (this is documented and not simply my opinion) along with the fact (also documented) that this group of Arabs continues to receive more international financial aid than any other group present or in the past.

Your ramblings on this topic are what one expects to-day from those with a degree in sociology from a liberal arts institution.

Just chiming in with a recent idea: if the greentards get their way and we are forced to give up petroleum, the entire Arab world will be catapulted into the Stone Age troglodytic existence they seem to be craving anyway. If they want weapons more advanced than pointed sticks, they'll need to think of something other than money to buy them.

Must always look for those silver linings.

“if the greentards get their way and we are forced to give up petroleum, the entire Arab world will be catapulted into the Stone Age”

Yup! We know it and they are fast catching on. Hench the other reason they push so desperately into our countries. When the oil fails – they have no plans on being stuck in the desert again.

I think ET, who seems a reasonable enough fellow, could use a brief history lesson – history didn’t begin in 2007, unless you’re an unrepentant no-lobes moonbat. But if we want to start in recent times, look at it this way: Israel gave the Pals the beginnings of their own nation - and then the Pals elected Hamas who have vowed to run the Jews out of Israel – reason being that Mohammed rode to Jerusalem on a flying horse and then ascended directly to heaven…ahem!

The Pals have always - ALWAYS - backed the wrong side, from 1948 to the present day, and that is the only reason they are where they are. When Fascists from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt promised them a Muslim Palestine, they turned on the Jews who had so obviously hoped to include them in the bright future planned for everyone within their borders, and when the Arabs repeatedly failed to effectively execute their "war of extermination and...momentous massacre" in the words of the Arab League Secretary, the Pals continued their constant attacks, from the mind-bending barbarity of using human bombs to blow up discos and school buses and wedding parties to sending gunmen into yeshivas. And so it continues to this day, with the Israelis expelling Jews from townships and trying desperately to solve the situation in a rational way, yet we have Hamas and Islamic Jihad and any number of sons of bitches doing their best to force Israel to commit acts that turn the world against them again and again in ways that must engender the worst kind of maddening frustration and hopelessness. The obvious reason: they don’t want their “own country” – they want all of Israel absorbed into the Muslim hive, and they think (since the aggregate intelligence of the hive is about the same as a hangnail’s) that the way to do this is to kill Jews and convince the rest of the world to help them.

The history is there and I for one don't intend to conveniently forget it. Israel deserves to exist, that one tiny sliver of land in a morass of irrational bloodthirsty thugs, and it deserves to be run by Jews, the only people to actually do anything with it other than squat on it and let it decay. And its citizens deserve, as we all do, to live without fear of being blown to bits by a rocket or a human bomb. Hamas are cowardly scum who use human shields because they know that in a face-to-face fight they'd be annihilated. They are the ones to blame here, their own people should have the sense to admit it but they don't. They have picked the wrong side again, as they have always done, they are bending to pray to Mecca and ignoring the horrible feeling of being sodomized by the very people they have entrusted with their future. The reason: surprise surprise, propaganda, self-deception.

It is a terrible tragedy, as with the ascendancy of Taliban in Afghanistan. A tragedy of primitive, stubborn, self-congratulatory human stupidity on a massive scale, and it is running rampant through the Muslim world and has obviously infected ours. Now we are losing our country and every principle it ought to be standing for to the hive, and I have never been so ashamed of so many of my fellow Canadians. My only consolation is that it makes it so crystal clear who my friends are, and who I can easily write off, since like Me No Dhimmi I have also lost friendships over this. But I side with rationality and goodness, and severing with people who support the opposite has felt really healthy.

Always watching for silver linings…

Call yourself Small Dead Brains.

Call yourself Small Dead Brains.

Call yourself Small Dead Brains.

Call yourself Small Dead Brains.

Call yourself Small Dead Brains.