Two and a half years ago, a google of *Global Warming Hoax* brought up just a few hits.

With this (from sda) usually being near the top;

----------------
Kyoto is the biggest Hoax the world has ever seen. Kyoto was born in Oak Lake, Manitoba in the 1930's. Maurice Strong, yes a Canadian, is the Grandfather of Kyoto. From Stockholm to Rio to The Earth Charter to The UN to One World Governance, MS and his "ideas" are what the Kyoto Protocol is all about. The first hint of Kyoto surfaced in the 90's while Maurice Strong was Chairman of debt-ridden Ontario Hydro. Out of the blue OH purchased a rain forest in Costa Rica. Many millions. Some were outraged. Where and the hell did this idea come from !! MS countered, it was to off-set OH's emissions. What many at the time did not realize was the power and influence that the man had in world affairs. He liked NGO's, The UN, Environmental Activists and other non-elected organizations. Was Paul Martins life long mentor. Google Maurice Strong and you will see why we have the Kyoto Hoax and how the scam was able to engulf the world. It would, however never have got this far without the help of the MSM. This is the puzzling part for me. The best explaination I have found is on Patrick Moore's (co-founder of Greenpeace) website, Greenspirit. Look up "Hard Choices for the Environmental Movement". The Earth's climate has always been changing. It is not about science.It is a belief. That is why the big promoters like Gore, Suzuki, Chretien, Martin will never debate it.

Posted by: B. Hoax Aware at May 29, 2006 1:08 AM

From sda May 28, 2006
Poor Man's David Suzuki

---------------------------

I am glad it has been relegated lower - not even in the top 200 out of two and a half million. (got tired of looking, ha !)

The world is catching on - thanks to blogs.

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/004043.html

test your vision. . . can you detect it ?

http://tinyurl.com/9q2jny

Sweet...finally an easy way to decide science..just let the people and google do the work. This is genius... :S

Think of the low cost housing and medical advancements and child poverty and hospitals and schools and disease reduction and roads and bridges and meaningful energy reduction and the many other things this stolen money that Algore and Suzuki were responsible in part for, could have gone into. Things this world needs. Not another FRAUD, perpetrated by the fraud artist from Oak Lake.

Bartinsky: What stolen money, what are you talking about? Low cost housing doesn't get built because people would rather make money off of high priced housing, child poverty has been around a lot longer than this whole climate change issue...nothing was or is stopping it from being solved other than a lack of desire.

You're not going to laughing when all of our crops start dying off due to global warming. What are you going to tell your children then? Mommy and daddy were just too lazy and selfish to do anything about it when they had the chance!

add "child poverty" to the meaningless oxymoron list.

Puddin n Pie: How is "child poverty" an oxymoron?

An oxymoron (plural oxymorons or, more rarely, oxymora) is a figure of speech that combines two normally contradictory terms.

A child (plural: children) is a human being between the stages of birth and puberty.

Poverty is the deprivation of common necessities such as food, clothing, shelter and safe drinking water, all of which determine our quality of life.

"You're not going to laughing when all of our crops start dying off due to global warming"

We're in Canada, you doofus. You may not have noticed, but it gets pretty damn cold up here. An increase in average temperatures would be a boon for agriculture in Canada. If AGW is real, then bring it on!

Izanpoo
"IF" the world is warming would this not be better for our cops and farmers in the north.Would this not in turn make longer growing seasons so farmers would be able to grow more than one crop per year?
I think you had better stop watching to much gore and fruit fly videos.

Alex: Droughts certainly aren't going to help. The Dust bowl can attest to that.

Since people seem to like to look in their backyards and call it the global climate, here's what's happening where it's summer.

Droughts, floods and heatwaves as global temperatures rise
17/12/2008 10:52:00 AM. | AAP

Parts of Australia endured some of their driest and hottest years on record in 2008, while it will likely go down as the planet's 10th warmest year on record, the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO) says.

Releasing its annual statement on the global climate, the Geneva-based world weather body said climate extremes - including floods, persistent droughts, snow storms and heatwaves - were recorded in many parts of the world.

While Arctic Sea ice dropped to its second-lowest level since satellite measurements began in 1979, regions such as southern Australia experienced long periods of scorching temperatures.

Adelaide endured 15 consecutive days of maximum temperatures above 35 degrees, its longest-running heatwave on record, while Victoria had its ninth driest year since records began, the WMO noted.

"These conditions exacerbated severe water shortages in the agriculturally important Murray-Darling Basin, resulting in widespread crop failures in the area," the WMO said.

Conversely, several significant rainfall events affected eastern Australia early in the year, causing major flooding, particularly in Queensland, while widespread heavy rains across most of the continent in November ended an extremely dry period in central Australia.

Climatologist Andrew Watkins said while things averaged out over the globe, overall Australia had been warmer than the global average, adding that recent rain events were welcome but more were needed to break the drought.

"There are some good signs at the moment going into next year for Australian rainfall - as to whether that will end the drought is another thing because we need need many years of rainfall to catch up in our dams," Dr Watkins told ABC Radio.

"You're not going to laughing when all of our crops start dying off due to global warming. What are you going to tell your children then? Mommy and daddy were just too lazy and selfish to do anything about it when they had the chance!"

Something tells me that "Izanpo" is only slightly above the age of being able to procreate (perhaps only mentally/emotionally, though).

Keep reading and regurgitating the feed though, we're better off suffering you than have you sneaking around undermining and corrupting stuff that real people care about. It's quite amazing how human brain development can be arrested yet still convince itself that it's correct. Ya gotta get 'em early before that critical thinking thing sets in.

All lefty planners know this, it's a perquisite for joining the club. Hint: recruit only those dumber than you, or at least dumb-down the smarter ones.

Me, I like to hang around with people that are smarter than me, hoping that intelligence will get transferred perhaps by osmosis or something.

My IQ of 183 doesn't prevent me from hanging out with the really smart kids.

Ghia ignores climate models and the EU ... Russians to blame.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477856,00.html

We import most of our fruits and vegetables. Now you could say, well, we'll be able to grow our own, however, climate change will not turn unfertile land fertile.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/01/08/peter-foster-climate-rains-on-aussie-drought.aspx

Oh crap, I mis-typed and accidentally moved a decimal point. It's actually 18.3 (Fahrenheit, though).

This is much more appropriate number for a knuckle-dragger like myself.

Sydneysiders are being told to get ready for a warm one today, because a heat wave is hitting the city.

The mercury is expected to soar above 40 degrees in the west, while in the city it'll be a milder 31 thanks to sea breezes.

Forecaster Elli Sparks says the heat has swept across Australia.

“We’ve got this mass of very hot air right over NSW and it’s been coming to us all the way from Western Australia and the north west (of the country),” Ms Sparks said.

http://www.livenews.com.au/Articles/2009/01/06/Heatwave_hitting_Sydney_today

And the rivers are likely to be packed again today, with a maximum temperature of 37 degrees expected on the Border and 35 degrees in Wangaratta.

The heat wave is predicted to continue into next week.

Tomorrow’s expected maximum of 26 degrees at Wangaratta and 28 degrees on the Border is the lowest predicted peak temperature for the cities until at least next Tuesday.

http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/river-a-haven-from-the-heat/1401475.aspx

Thanks Nemo2 @ 3:34. Great article!

Hey Izapoo, I am a farmer, I know a little about the process. The money that you and your ilk waste on the non-existant problem if it is yours, is no problem. When it is tax-payers it is my business. Tell your mommy and daddy that you got sucked into every scam, and thats why your broke dufus.

Pacific Dictates Droughts And Drenchings

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/01/040129072151.htm

Bartinsky: What money are you talking about? What tax dollars of yours are currently being wasted on climate change?

Hey Deeznuts- let me pick-up a comment trail from a different thread.

Frenchie77: Scientists aren't in a position to call Al Gore out, that's not what they do. The media not calling him out has nothing to do with the science. Why would I go to BBC, CNN, or any other such media outlet for scientific info when I don't even go to or trust them for news on current events or politics.

Man, you are a real piece of work!!

So, here are you telling me that you don't trust the media for science, and then promptly post a media piece chalk full of BS. To what end???

Look, as I've tried explaining to other AGW zealots, it's hard for me or anyone to believe that the "science behind AGW" isn't zhit when the mouthpieces are nothing but!

But, you're not really interested in that, are you? You've got your membership in the church of the month club and will parrot whatever you are told.

Besides, you forgot to mention in your post, that some AGWers say that increased temp will put more moisture in the air and create more storms and more rainfall. While others say droughts will become more common, frequent, and severe. Seems to me that the "science" is just as full of it as the mouthpiece.

Its an interesting spectacle to watch the melt down of this Ponzi scam, with its hysterical acolytes. Its even funnier to watch all those who invested so much emotionally in this nest of lies panicking as the money ship sinks with any belief in there lies. The desperation is like milk & honey, as is there idiocy being exposed for the money scam it was from the beginning.
All one had to do is look at the names of the boosters of this fairy tale.
All the biggest names in money, trolling for carbon credits to sell. The UN , who with the oil for food (guns) was perhaps the prime crime for money in human history. Its was not as mistake but as carefully planned as any bank heist. Its like selling dreams with no overhead. No product just free money for a made up climate bogyman. Turning a needed gas by tree’s like co2 into arsenic. Than changing the narrative in the middle from GW to another code word climate change. Well news for them. The climate is always changing. Weasel words for a criminal enterprise.
The World was here long before us, & no doubt will be here when the human race moves on.
We are mortal mites on the face of the Planet, not godling’s with superpowers.
JMO

Frenchie77: The articles I posted did not claim any scientific conclusion...they merely summed up the weather. Where do you see any "BS" in those articles...please, point it out. None of the articles even mention the words climate change or global warming.

More moisture in the air is inherent in warmer air temperatures...the higher the temperature of air the more water it can hold...that is fact. What I've heard is that more frequent high intensity rainstorms in some areas are expected and more frequent high intensity droughts in others. It's both, not either or.

About 47 years ago, when I was living in South Australia, a guy, up around Marree or Oodnadatta, or somesuch, placed a tongue-in-cheek ad in the paper, something to the effect of "Rain gauge for sale, 7 years old, never been used. Might work as a dust gauge".

Revnant Dream: I don't see climate change dispearring, where are you looking? No one is arguing that the earth is in trouble...they are arguing that the earth that supports us is in trouble...and thus we are in trouble.

No scientist has ever implied that CO2 is evil...that's why you shouldn't get caught up in the media hype.

deezflowers

"""""Bartinsky: What money are you talking about? What tax dollars of yours are currently being wasted on climate change? """"

now why did you go and do that, here I though you were just uninformed, but you prove me wrong by proving yourself intellectualy challenged.

Even if the gov't only spent money doing studies tax dollars were spent, is the gov't goes beyond studies, which it has, there is a greater chance of moneys wasted, and there has been a lot of money wasted, as in sooozoookeys tax free status while pontificating on political issues, which is against the rules. So pay up sooozoookey, I want my tax dollars returned!!!!

Deeznuts,

I may have missed it, in which case I apologize, but did you let us know when the climate was stable?

"We import most of our fruits and vegetables. Now you could say, well, we'll be able to grow our own, however, climate change will not turn unfertile land fertile.
Posted by: Deezflowers"

But we already have lots of fertile land whose only limiting quality is the short/cool growing season.

Guys, guys. Look again at Kate's post here. Now press 'reset'.

She never mentioned any dissyflowers.

Deeznuts:

What is up with all the references to Australia? Anyone who knows anything about climate knows when la Nina conditions prevail Australia suffers. However, when La Nina conditions prevail (like since mid 2007) the globe also cools.

GYM: studies? You think studies constitutes a large portion of your tax dollars? You ellude to the gov't doing more, but that's as far as you go. So what else, other than studies, does the government throw away your money in the name of climate change?

Kathy: you missed it. The climate is relatively stable by definition, it is weather that is not. The climate has been stable for the past 10,000 years, allowing us to prosper.

"Weather is the day-to-day state of the atmosphere, and is a chaotic non-linear dynamical system. On the other hand, climate — the average state of weather — is fairly stable and predictable. Climate includes the average temperature, amount of precipitation, days of sunlight, and other variables that might be measured at any given site. However, there are also changes within the Earth's environment that can affect the climate."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change

"Although Modern Man had developed long before the migration from Africa began ∼ 55,000 years ago no agricultural societies developed until about ∼ 10,000 years ago. In the next 5,000 years agricultures developed independently in at least six regions of the world. It is virtually certain that it was not a chance occurrence that so many new agricultures appeared in the same 5,000 years. What inhibited agriculture world wide for 44,000 years and what changed ∼ 10,000 years ago? Here we suggest that a major factor influencing the development of agricultural societies was climate stability. From the experience of four cultures we estimate that the development of agriculture needed ∼ 2,000 years of climate free from significant climate variations on time scales of a few centuries. Using the Empirical Mode Decomposition technique specifically designed to exhibit the time history of the amplitude of variations in non-stationary time series such as climate proxy records, we find that between 50,000 years ago and the termination of the Younger Dryas ∼ 11,600 years ago there was probably no time span as long as 2,000 years that was free of relatively large century scale variations. Furthermore variations on these time scales appear to have been relatively small since the Younger Dryas (YD) ended, supporting our proposition concerning the importance of climate stability in the history of human culture"

http://www.springerlink.com/content/38514g144160220j/

Dr Watkins, Australia's Dr Suzuki.

Dirtman: No, we don't have a lot of fertile land where the only problem is a short/cool growing season. The season's won't change with climate, they are a result of our position on the globe. Most fertile land is in the prairies, where springs and summers are warm enough for good agriculture, other than that fertile land is at a premium, BC doesn't have a whole lot, and in the east it's contained to the St. Lawrence flood plains.

"Oldjim (09:07:30) :

Oh I love this one http://icecap.us/index.php/go/political-climate

“Britain’s wind farms have stopped working during the cold snap due to lack of wind, it has emerged, as scientists claimed half the world’s energy could soon be from renewables. The Met Office said there has been an unusually long period of high pressure across the UK for the last couple of weeks, causing the cold snap and very little wind.

Since Boxing Day much of the country has suffered sub-zero conditions with frozen rivers and lakes and even the sea in the south of England, at Sandbanks in Dorset. In the last few days temperatures in southern England plunged as low as 17.6F (-8C). However the weather is expected to warm up over the weekend, with wind speeds also picking up. But sources in the energy industry say that the lack of wind has caused the country’s wind farms to grind to a halt when more electricity than ever is needed for heating, forcing the grid to rely on back up from fossil fuels or other renewable energy sources. “"

"Mid-Winter Report Card
10 01 2009
Mid-Winter Report Card
Guest post by Steven Goddard

We are almost at the half way point for the meteorological winter (December through February) and it is a good time to evaluate how the NOAA CPC (Climate Prediction Center) and UK Met Office winter forecasts are doing so far. As seen below, CPC forecast the highest probability of warmth for Alaska and the upper midwest"
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/01/10/mid-winter-report-card/#comments

Prediction: 'THE GORE EFFECT"

"The Coldest Weather Possible In Nearly 15 Years"
http://www.accuweather.com/news-top-headline.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&date=2009-01-09_21:55

Makes me wonder whether Mr. Gore will be in Washington a week ahead of the Innauguration.

Holy Cripes. It's going to +40C in Aussiland. Like it never got that hot in Canuckistan in summer. Oh wait,it IS summer in OZ!!! Who woulda thunk?

OH yeah.And cue the eco-nuts/Goracle cultists that it's time to start screaming about the Anarctica iceshelf melting,seeing as it is also summer there and getting warm!

Retreating Glacier Fronts on the Antarctic Peninsula over the Past Half-Century
A. J. Cook,1* A. J. Fox,1 D. G. Vaughan,1 J. G. Ferrigno2
The continued retreat of ice shelves on the Antarctic Peninsula has been widely attributed to recent atmospheric warming, but there is little published work describing changes in glacier margin positions. We present trends in 244 marine glacier fronts on the peninsula and associated islands over the past 61 years. Of these glaciers, 87% have retreated and a clear boundary between mean advance and retreat has migrated progressively southward. The pattern is broadly compatible with retreat driven by atmospheric warming, but the rapidity of the migration suggests that this may not be the sole driver of glacier retreat in this region.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/308/5721/541

deezflowers It's called summer. Much of Oz is desert. It's summer..in the desert.

I think what has happened is that alot of these climate change belivers have bought alot of ocean front property in arizona from Al Gore and are now praying that he is right about climate change so that it will bring up the value of these properties.
"LOSERS"

I believe it is summer in Australia right now. It is often warm then and can even be very warm. No need for alarm. The warm rising air will hold the sky up.

Speedy: Yes, I know it's summer, I stated that in the first post with an Aussie weather report. It was supposed to be a contrast to the cold weather reports here in the northern hemisphere causing people to some how link that to negating climate change.

"The average surface air temperature of Australia has increased by 0.7 °C over the past century. [3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Australia

The average temperature for January in Sydney is 25 degree celsius.

"The mercury is expected to soar above 40 degrees in the west, while in the city it'll be a milder 31 thanks to sea breezes.

Forecaster Elli Sparks says the heat has swept across Australia."

"Parts of Australia endured some of their driest and hottest years on record in 2008, while it will likely go down as the planet's 10th warmest year on record, the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO) says."

What's all this BS about "the planet has been cooling for the past 10 years"?

Brain:

"Anyone who knows anything about climate knows when la Nina conditions prevail Australia suffers."

Actually, it's El Nino that gives rise to droughts in Aussie...maybe you don't know so much about climate?

"Rainfall is highly variable, with frequent droughts lasting several seasons thought to be caused in part by the El Niño-Southern Oscillation."

http://australiasevereweather.com/links/temprec/sydney.htm

Sydney: January

Highest Maximum temp: 45.3 on 14/01/1939

Highest Average temp: 33.7 on 13/01/1896

It's weather.

Nemo2: I would call the highest maximum temp and highest average temp "extreme weather". Under that notion, the current heat wave would constitute as extreme weather.

And changes in the ocean waters are caused by the sun.
Not mankind.

Yawn.

rockyt: Hey, we need to tell the scientists! "Stop, no need to do your work, rockyt has it all figured out"

Deeznuts
Dont worry the scientists giving up on AGW!
Thier finding out it is just another enviro SCAM!

Hey, we need to tell the scientists! "Stop, no need to do your work, rockyt has it all figured out"

That's pretty funny, since it's the alarmist crowd who pretend (against mounting evidence and relying mainly on the output of some seriously flawed climate models) that they have it all figured out, that there's a 'consensus' which means we should all shut up and accept what Hansen and Suzuki say (on pain of imprisonment), and that cranking back and forth on the CO2 dial is all you need to 'regulate' climate and stop it from changing (whatever that means).

Fortunately, if various signs like Google searches are any indication, the public may be starting to get wise to the high priesthood of watermelon charlatans and their anti-science garbage.

http://tinyurl.com/9weqhe

Editors comment...
Supported by in-depth scientific evidence, Singer and Avery present the compelling concept that global temperatures have been rising mostly or entirely because of a natural cycle. Unstoppable Global Warming explains why we're warming, why it's not very dangerous, and why we can't stop it anyway.

Reader's comment...
The range of evidence the authors bring in to characterizes the 1,500 year cycle is stunning and their end-of-chapter notes (over 500) make this book the obvious starting point to study the whole issue of global warming / cooling. They have also included a well written 11 page glossary.

The chapter on "The Sun-Climate Connection" was probably written before the publication of Hendrik Svensmark and team's experimental paper on low level cloud formation "Experimental evidence for the role of ions in particle nucleation under atmospheric conditions" (17 August 2006). Although they cite his previous work this latest paper adds experimental verification under controlled laboratory conditions for the solar winds participation in the formation of low level (high albedo) clouds. Once again carbon dioxide was conspicuous as a non-participant.

Those who have adopted the religion of anthropogenic global warming will not like the material presented in this summary, however science does march on and experimental evidence overrules hypotheses even if embodied in expensive computer simulations.

Factual statement nuts, try it sometime.

Well, seeing that "Global Warming" takes place on a regular basis each year - winter to summer, and over a far greater temperature range than the IPCC predicts where are the awful effects each year ?. Shock and horror about predicted GW effects on the Great Barrier Reef neglect the normal temperature rise in waters South to North. Again, the GBR seems to cope very well as do human populations - want to have a 2 degree rise in temperature ?, just move 100 or so km north or south as appropriate. Overpowering all else though, is that the advocates of global warming are trying to perpetuate the biggest scam in human history on the rest of us, they are getting more shrill as their position is seen to be false.

Deezflowers:
Obviously you don't live in Alberta where they want to pour co2 down shafts of old mines costing the tax payer Billions.
As I said before, look who's promoting this. Its the same cast of characters who taught us in school of the coming New Ice Age. There was talk back then of shutting up Global cooling as today. You have the same dingbats crying for people to stop or even jailed for exercising free speech to what most people I know, consider a bogus money scam. When the largest names in money like Rockford & Mo Strong back this, you know the con is on.
The only people who are going to suffer now, are the same folks who tried the other weather rip off. In the end science itself comes into question. Think Cold fusion!
Look at the sources of this myth, particularly the UN.
JMO

"Weather is the day-to-day state of the atmosphere, and is a chaotic non-linear dynamical system. On the other hand, climate — the average state of weather — is fairly stable and predictable. Climate includes the average temperature, amount of precipitation, days of sunlight, and other variables that might be measured at any given site. However, there are also changes within the Earth's environment that can affect the climate." From Wikipedia via Deezflowers 2009 4:49 PM

"The climate system is particularly challenging since it is known that components in the system are inherently chaotic, and there are central components which affect the system in a non-linear manner and potentially could switch the sign of critical feedbacks. The non-linear processes include the basic dynamical response of the climate system and the interactions between the different components. These complex, non-linear dynamics are an inherent aspect of the climate system. Amongst the important non-linear processes are the role of clouds, the thermohaline circulation, and sea ice. There are other broad non-linear components, the biogeochemical system and, in particular, the carbon system, the hydrological cycle, and the chemistry of the atmosphere."

http://www.grida.no/publications/other/ipcc_tar/?src=/CLIMATE/IPCC_TAR/WG1/516.htm

What's all this BS about Sydney? I live here and short of a two week hot spell during the spring, it's been a bloody cool summer.

multirec: "What's all this BS about Sydney? ... "

Why is it that the casualties of AGW can't just shut up and except that they are burning up?

BTW: For stylish Aussie floodwear:

http://tinyurl.com/9qxplv

Ural: G'day mate, throw another dingo on the barbie.

Crispytoast: try doing a google scholar search..type in climate or climate change, or even climate change myth...let us know what you find.

Kimw: I suggest a little more reading/research prior to discussion.

One thing to think about is the whole world doesn't have seasons.

Revnant Dream: Who wants to pour it down mineshafts? The government? Or private corporations? Or is it the government paying an externality of corporations with tax payer dollars.

johnlee: Your article said nothing different from the one I posted.

Example: weather is a component of climate...

one article said this:

"Weather is the day-to-day state of the atmosphere, and is a chaotic non-linear dynamical system.

the other:

"The climate system is particularly challenging since.... COMPONENTS in the system are inherently chaotic (weather), and there are central components which affect the system in a non-linear manner (weather)"

one said this:

"Weather is the day-to-day state of the atmosphere, and is a chaotic non-linear dynamical system"

the other:

"Amongst the important non-linear PROCESSES...role of clouds (weather), the thermohaline circulation (broad scale weather), and sea ice. There are other broad non-linear COMPONENTS, the biogeochemical system and, in particular, the carbon system, the hydrological cycle (weather - precipitation), and the chemistry of the atmosphere."

The Aussie stuff was to remind people that just because it's cold here doesn't mean it's cold everywhere. From what I've read, it would appear that Aussie is having a heat wave, and that its mean temperature has risen over the past century.

From what I've read, it would appear that Aussie is having a heat wave, and that its mean temperature has risen over the past century.

Have you ever considered that it may well be that you don't read enough, or at least read well with enough comprehension?

Jan: Sometimes, yes. Please point to where I misread.

Uh, like the whole thread.

Jan: Please, give me an example of where I misread.

G'day. I haven't been down for over 20 years ... is the Rocks still above water?

Speaking of dingos, are they drowning like the polar bears?

"The season's won't change with climate, they are a result of our position on the globe. Most fertile land is in the prairies, where springs and summers are warm enough for good agriculture, other than that fertile land is at a premium, BC doesn't have a whole lot, and in the east it's contained to the St. Lawrence flood plains.

Posted by: Deezflowers"

Yes Deez, the seasons will change with climate change. Summers will be longer with global warming, last spring frosts earlier and first fall frosts later, summer nights warmer and winters milder. The reverse is true with global cooling. Do a little research (Wiki is not reliable, do real research) into past climate fluctuations. You'll find that the warm periods (warmer than now) have been times of plenty for the human race, and cool periods have been times of hunger and starvation, war and pestilence, weather extremes and crop failures. Don't take my word for it, do the research.

Ural: The rocks are still above water and I've yet to see an elusive dingo, however have bumped into kangaroos as big as me, bloody frightening!
The heat wave is in Queensland, Noosa, Brisbane, etc. Normal temps for that area. Back here in Bondi, the temps are cool, 24 for a high today, so for someone to say that Sydney is going through a heat wave, I'd seriously question where they get their data from.

johnlee: Your article said nothing different from the one I posted
Deezflowers at January 10, 2009 10:33 PM

Deezflower where does your Wiki article("Weather is the day-to-day state of the atmosphere, and is a chaotic non-linear dynamical system. On the other hand, climate — the average state of weather — is fairly stable and predictable. Climate includes the average temperature, amount of precipitation, days of sunlight, and other variables that might be measured at any given site. However, there are also changes within the Earth's environment that can affect the climate." )article note this:

"These complex, non-linear dynamics are an inherent aspect of the climate system"

'Inherent' as in "existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inherent

multirec: " ... I'd seriously question where they get their data from."

The internet:

http://www.weatherforecastmap.com/new_south_wales/sydney/

Deez...whatever

So, let's take your insubstantiated article and counter with another (just click through the images):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthpicturegalleries/4207985/Animal-pictures-of-the-week-a-special-cold-weather-edition.html?image=1

So, you manage to find an article that says australia is warming but manage to miss that almost everywhere in Europe (and this applies to the northern hemisphere in general) we are freezing our nuts off.

In reality, it's called climate and us "deniers" are saying that it is always changing. It is you zealots that keep saying that the whole damn planet should have constant climate.

It is you zealots that are advocating your position, thus it is up to you to provide a damn-near bullet proof theory. It is NOT up to the rationale world to provide a complete counter theory, all we need to do is poke holes in yours. Frankly, that is all too easy when you have Al Gore as spokesman and hansen/mann as lead scientists. Why don't you stop your nonsense and look at climate audit (if you can understand it) for a quick glimpse of the glaring holes in just one aspect of AGW theory (i.e. data collection and provision).

Just like every zealot out there, you conveniently point to those stories that support your POV (no matter how full of BS) and ignore anything that doesn't.

As for us "deniers", if you peruse SDA archives you will find that she links to a lot of pro-agw stories (and posters like to "de-construct" those) as well as con-agw stories (and we like to "de-construct" the crappy ones here too).

You also manage to keep pointing back to media sources as references after saying that you don't trust them!

Again, I know that you a simply incapable of understanding your hypocrisy so I really don't expect any glimmer of understanding or logic to emerge from your postings.

In this regard, you and John Cross must be related (hmmm, same MACs??) as you consistently manage to keep posting the same fallacies regardless of how many times it is shown they are false. Really, while I may be an "AGW denier", you guys are the "reality deniers".

Dirtman: No, seasons won't change, the length of daylight on any given day is not determined by the temperature or any other climatic variable. They are determined by the rotation of the earth. What you call "longer summers" will just be warmer springs and falls.

Wiki is perfectly reliable as an initial source. Tell me, where do you do your research? Do you use primary sources?

multirec: http://www.secondsout.com/World/news.cfm?ccs=225&cs=51545

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10550911

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24881875-5013404,00.html
AUSTRALIA is in the grip of a heatwave that yesterday gave Sydney its hottest day in two years and Perth its 10th consecutive day of 32C or hotter.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24881878-5006784,00.html
An emergency was declared in the Southern Highlands, southwest of Sydney, and residents were warned to brace for further outbreaks today. The fires come after three days of sweltering heat, in which temperatures have climbed above 40C

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24875540-5001021,00.html
The heat is back with a vengeance this year. Temperatures up to 41C are expected in Sydney's western suburbs today - on the back of yesterday's 39C.

johnlee: The wiki article does not directly say that "weather is within climate", but I believe that's a given or at least implied from "climate — the average state of weather".

Frechie77: I used the article from Aussie BECAUSE IT'S SUMMER THERE!

Just what made you believe that a counter argument is a photo gallery? That's about the lowest, least credible or useful piece of information you could possibly use. The climate is RELATIVELY STABLE, it has been for the past 10,000 years. Weather, on the other hand, is very variable.

What is climate audit, I'm guessing some BS website. Here's a real suggestion, how about you search through PRIMARY RESOURCES on the subject, you know, scientific research papers, and tell me what you find. I use media sources for current event reporting, as in reporting on the current weather, not those that summarize scientific work.

Trust me, if anybody showed me an ounce of credible information negating the reality of anthropogenic climate change I would recognize it. I kept seeing some BS about the planet having been cooling for the past 10 years, yet no one has answered my request to see a PRIMARY RESOURCE demonstrating it. Like this.

http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~td/Recent_papers/Knutson_et_al_J_Clim_2006.pdf

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/303/5663/1499

http://www.pnas.org/content/103/39/14288.abstract

Deeznuts @12:29 "...Just what made you believe that a counter argument is a photo gallery? That's about the lowest, least credible or useful piece of information you could possibly use...."

Well, you better tell CNN, BBC, CBC, etc cause that's pretty much the norm for news these days.

"...I used the article from Aussie BECAUSE IT'S SUMMER THERE!..."

Yah, that tends to be the AGW thing, only ever report on hot summers and ignore the blistering cold winters!

And really, as you don't trust the media why does it matter? It is ALL not trustworthy, according to you.

Really, you don't know www.climateaudit.org ??? If you don't, then go englighten yourself but methinks you are feigning ignorance here! Steve and crew there are doing a very fine job trying to point out exactly how/why the science behind AGW is so full of BS. It basically comes down to 2 things, accurate and trustworthy data and repeatability. These are the hallmarks of quality science and AGW zealots fall significantly short of the mark on both!

You want links to science, you want quality summaries, you want fair debate, then this site has it all.

You want to keep your head up your azz, then don't bother!

Frenchie77: CNN and the rest are MSM, I ignore it, it is propaganda, largely influenced by the same groups that already shout at us through every other conceivable medium.

I was only making a comparison, that's all. The south tends to not get very much attention so I simply brought up the fact that in some places it's bloody hot.

It's not all garbage, you have to take most of it with a large grain of salt, and some of it is just blatant propaganda. A weather report I would classify as being fairly benign, maybe a bit of hysteria/entertainment, but in general the facts tends not to be distorted.

I will check out the website.

I checked out the site, it's a good source. There are no claims that climate change is not real, nor that we shouldn't take action though..at least not from Steve's sources. I completely agree that it is blown out of proportion by the media, that Al Gore is a tool, that science isn't perfect, that there's lots of uncertainty, that climate models are flawed, that science itself is closed minded, that politics and science are intertwined, ect...but I have not found any reliable, logical, information supported with evidence that negates climate change or our effect on the planet (large extinction, if not mass extinction event currently occuring).

On the highly politicized issue of climate change, however, understanding uncertainties is made difficult when scientists advocating for action oversell the predictive capabilities of climate models, such as those of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). BUT action on climate change makes sense even if many climate scientists oversell predictive capabilities.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/06/17/overheated-claims.aspx

http://www.cejournal.net/?p=607

"No, seasons won't change, the length of daylight on any given day is not determined by the temperature or any other climatic variable. They are determined by the rotation of the earth. What you call "longer summers" will just be warmer springs and falls.

Wiki is perfectly reliable as an initial source.
Posted by: Deezflowers"

The length of daylight is irrelevant. Warmer climate/temperatures extend the growing season earlier in spring and later into fall. That translates into a longer summer. Ignore the "official" dates of summer which have been arbitrarily assigned to the summer solstice and fall equinox. Summers are much shorter and winters much longer here in north central BC than in the hot south Okanagan.

And remember, we were talking about increased food production, something that comes with warmer temperatures and longer growing seasons.

As for Wiki being reliable, check this out for an example of how it is be manipulated:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/04/12/wikipedia-s-zealots-solomon.aspx

"No, seasons won't change, the length of daylight on any given day is not determined by the temperature or any other climatic variable. They are determined by the rotation of the earth. What you call "longer summers" will just be warmer springs and falls.

Wiki is perfectly reliable as an initial source.
Posted by: Deezflowers"

The length of daylight is irrelevant. Warmer climate/temperatures extend the growing season earlier in spring and later into fall. That translates into a longer summer. Ignore the "official" dates of summer which have been arbitrarily assigned to the summer solstice and fall equinox. Summers are much shorter and winters much longer here in north central BC than in the hot south Okanagan.

And remember, we were talking about increased food production, something that comes with warmer temperatures and longer growing seasons.

As for Wiki being reliable, puleeze! Back in April the National Post ran an article called Wikipedia's Zealots. Check it out.

Sorry for the double post

Frenchie77: No, Deezflowers and I are two different people. However I do admire his for sticking to the science, engaging in reasoned discussion, providing supporting background references and staying relatively polite.

You say that I keep posting the same things that are false. The thing I post more often on this site than any other is what I consider the 3 main starting points for AGW (I can repeat them here if anyone is interested).

Yet you have not been able to even cast doubt on then, let alone showing they are false. And before you say that you already have, please provide a link to back up your point.

Regards,
John