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January 9, 2009

The Most Trusted Name In Propaganda

Bob Owens;

The segment with Gilbert shows him and another doctor badly faking chest compressions and other life-saving measures on a live boy faking death in what can only be described as political theater. The video claims to be filmed by the brother of a Palestinian teen that claims the boy was one of two purposefully killed by a missile fired at them by an Israeli drone as they played.

[...] CNN editors who swallowed the story of the poorly-acted video unquestioningly—no doubt because it fit the anti-Israeli narrative familiar to CNN viewers and critics—have now pulled the video without explanation, correction, or retraction.

It has also been determined that the videographer who filmed his brother's "death" is the general manager of a company that hosts web sites for Hamas.


Fake but accurate! While the video is gone, the story remains up at CNN.

The video:

Posted by Kate at January 9, 2009 9:28 AM
Comments

Now why doesn't this surprise me. What does surprise me is the MSM fall for this tactic time and time again.
On a different topic Ezra Levant caught this one. Liberal blogger justifies the use of human shields by the Hamas.

http://the-mound-of-sound.blogspot.com/2009/01/yes-they-use-human-shields.html

What are these loons smoking to write this!

Posted by: Archie at January 9, 2009 9:58 AM

It really doesn't matter what any blogger says. Israel is the overwhelming military power in the middle east...they are dropping 1 ton bombs on a heavily populated civilian area that has been largely cut off from any supplies including food, water, and medicine for 5 months +

I don't know if there's much more that needs to be said...oh, they got all those bombs from the US...and the tanks, aircraft, and helicopters.

Posted by: Deeznuts at January 9, 2009 10:01 AM

Gee, fake "news" on CNN? I'm shocked, simply shocked I tell you.

It isn't like this is the first time for these dorks either. I seem to remember them admitting they aired Saddam's propaganda un-cut and un-commented upon because otherwise they'd get kicked out of the country... and have nothing to show on TV.

I guess video of a fake dead kid is better than no video at all, eh? After all, they've got 24 hours x seven days a week of air time to fill.

At least it was video actually made in Gaza, and they didn't film it on a Hollywood back lot with actors from LA. Like a certain Big Three network did with a certain exploding truck.

Posted by: The Phantom at January 9, 2009 10:02 AM

Have no fear, if you missed CNN's broadcasts of lies old count Lloyd and OwlOliver will re-broadcast it in its entireity tonight with up dated footage of the size of Bre-Xs's mine holdings, and a "Pam Andersons breasts are natural story". Stick a fork in the MSM.

Posted by: bartinsky at January 9, 2009 10:22 AM

Yes, Deez, they are the overwhelming force.
Makes a person wonder why anyone would want to piss them off doesnt it?

Posted by: Lee at January 9, 2009 10:24 AM

"Israel is the overwhelming military power in the middle east...they are dropping 1 ton bombs on a heavily populated civilian.........."

So if it were the opposite you would be quite happy I presume? And if you were to defend your family after months of rocket bombardment, you would bring out your flyswatter I'm sure.

Posted by: Sounder at January 9, 2009 10:24 AM

"Israel is the overwhelming military power in the middle east..."

Then it's pretty stupid of the Paleosimians to poke them with a stick(Kassam rockets) don't you think?

"oh, they got all those bombs from the US...and the tanks, aircraft, and helicopters."

You'd be surprised how many tanks the Israelis got from surrounding Arab nations when they were poked by these Arabs on previous occasions. Of course the tanks weren't up to Israeli standards so they converted them into APCs.

Sane people, after so many martial defeats, would have left Israel alone by now, but these Arab crazies are counting on the fifth column in the West to bring them a victory that they can't win against Israel on the battlefield.

5th Estate = 5th Column

Posted by: Oz at January 9, 2009 10:24 AM

The same kind of manipulation goes on in all our MSM on almost ALL topics, whether it be the left's hostility to Sarah Palin, the smooth ride given to Obama, our own MSM's hostility to Harper and so on.

But, as noted, even though one or more videos may be fake, even though one or more events may be totally re-interpreted, the reality is that Israel is bombing a densely occupied area, and that not all the people affected by this war, are members of Hamas.

Posted by: ET at January 9, 2009 10:27 AM

Deeznuts, actually because the USA has so many dorks like you, Israel makes most of their own munitions and vehicles. Merkava tanks are made in Israel, and they are extremely efficient for the job. They do buy aircraft from the Yanks, but then so do we. Its hard to make your own jet fighters. They used to buy Mirage fighters from the French, but that was back when Egypt was buying MIGs from the USSR.

Bombs are 500lbs. and laser guided to withing a few inches of the target. Like maybe six or so inches. 1 ton = 2000 pounds, those they use for busting reinforced concrete underground bunkers. They hardly even make a ripple on the surface when they go off because they penetrate the soil by sheer kinetic energy and only explode when they hit an open space. The explosion is designed to destroy the bunker, not to make a huge frickin' hole.

Of course if the bunker/tunnel happens to be stuffed full of missiles, explosives, RPG ammunition or such like, THEN there will be a big frickin' hole in the ground. At which point you have to ask yourself, what kind of barbarian a-hole puts a tunnel full of munitions under people's houses with kids in them? The answer is the Hamas/Fata/PLO kind.

Incidentally, that PC you're typing on there, if it has an Intel processor, it was designed in Israel by JOOOOOS! Better throw it out the window or you'll get Joooo cooties on ya. D1ckhead.

Posted by: The Phantom at January 9, 2009 10:27 AM

I may be wrong, but I think I saw the green helmet guy in the video.

Wonder when Flat Fatima will make her appearance?

As an emergency responder and reviewing the CPR, I have to say I would fire the person doing it if they did it that way in Canada.

All that CPR is accomplishing, is to make the kid puke.

Posted by: robins111 at January 9, 2009 10:29 AM

"Israel is the overwhelming military power in the middle east..."
With the neighbours they have this type of fire power is a must.

Posted by: sysk at January 9, 2009 10:33 AM

I propose that such MSM fakes be designated as "Fauxtography" as suggested by a letter writer to the Post.

(P.S. Anyone know what those Israeli munitions are that airburst and then shower down? Seen a lot of pictures of them detonating and they probably aren't flares as they use them in the day. Just curious. Maybe our online arms expert Deeznuts knows.)

Posted by: Bart F. at January 9, 2009 10:34 AM

Really, what is the world coming to when a harmless community organization like Hamas can't fire off a few thousand rockets at random into Israel, hoping to kill a few Joos? [/sarc] I genuinely feel bad for the LEGITIMATE innocent bystanders who happen to get caught in a crossfire, but what does Hamas think is GOING to happen when they fire their missiles and mortars from backyards and schools?

Posted by: SDC at January 9, 2009 10:35 AM

ET, yes the IAF is bombing a densely populated area. They are doing it magnificently too, at a level of marksmanship which approaches miraculous.

The -reason- they are bombing a densely populated area is because that is where the terrorists are shooting from, and where all the munitions are hidden. Schools, hospitals, mosques, homes.

That, as I'm afraid you will have to admit, is not the IDF's fault. They are scrupulously following the rules of war. Punctiliously, I would venture.

Hamas is doing quite the reverse, and there is no excuse for that. Its evil, and they need killin'.

Go Sabras!

Posted by: The Phantom at January 9, 2009 10:38 AM

Israel is the overwhelming military power in the middle east...they are dropping 1 ton bombs on a heavily populated civilian area that has been largely cut off from any supplies including food, water, and medicine for 5 months +...oh, they got all those bombs from the US...and the tanks, aircraft, and helicopters.

I never understand what the point of posts like this is intended to be.

That equality of combatants is the preferred scenario for any conflict - presumably leading to a drawn-out and bloodier conflict? That an advanced Western society should do all it can to not get too far ahead of a medieval foe stuck in the 7th century? That said medieval foe isn’t using cell phone, satellite phones, the Internet, and other Western technologies not only not of their making, but so far in advance of their capabilities as to be beyond conception in their tiny “if Allah wills it” minds?

Would weaponry from China and Iran be preferable, assuming of course they have anything left over from what they’ve been shipping to the terrorist organization known as Hamas? Did you know that in the past the Palestinians have previously received bomb-making components as part of their humanitarian aid packages (substituting potassium nitrate for sugar and fertilizer with sulfuric acid for flour)?

Tel Aviv, by the way, has a denser civilian population than Gaza. I look forward to the Leftist emoting over that.

Posted by: Mississauga Matt at January 9, 2009 10:39 AM

You've got to love the sheer stupidity of CNN removing the video but leaving the text. The real measure of an organization's competence is how they solve their problems.


Dumbasses.

Posted by: penny at January 9, 2009 10:45 AM

They may not all be members of Hamas, but the majority of them elected Hamas, condoned Hamas's intentions, and supported Hamas's actions.

It's only when THEY become the focus of attacks that we hear the "Poor us" wailing.

Posted by: Nemo2 at January 9, 2009 10:47 AM

^5 Chuckles at phantom. Hypocrisy and stupidity sometimes go hand in hand, but mandatory ni the leftist mentality.

Posted by: Sean McAllister at January 9, 2009 10:52 AM

Deeznuts at 10:01 AM

I have a suggestion for you that maybe you can convince the Israelis off, tit for tat, Hamass fires one of those sewer pipes over the fence, Jews randomly through back a 10,000 pound daisy cutter. Fair enough for you?????

and


It's been a long time since I took my first aid coarse, but porko and his CPR just cracked me up

CNN, just a bunch of lefty losers

Posted by: GYM at January 9, 2009 10:53 AM

The Phantom: I'm Canadian bro. And don't fool yourself...the weapons come from the US. Israel doesn't have to pay for them either when they have funding from the US. The country with more military force than the rest of the world combined and Israel is going to get some of their munitions from France?


Whatever Gaza is, according to the international court, Israel is occupying it:

In July 2004, The International Court of Justice delivered an Advisory Opinion on the 'Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory'. The Court observed that under customary international law as reflected in Article 42 of the Regulations Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land annexed to the Fourth Hague Convention of 18 October 1907, territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army, and the occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.

The State of Israel raised a number of exceptions and objections,[9] but the Court found them unpersuasive. The Court ruled that territories had been occupied by the Israeli armed forces in 1967, during the conflict between Israel and Jordan, and that subsequent events in those territories, had done nothing to alter the situation. 'All these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_territories#West_Bank_and_Gaza_Strip_after_1967


Depleted uranium found in Gaza victims
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?
id=80443§ionid=351020202


Dershowitz on Israel and Proportionality
http://opiniojuris.org/2009/01/03/dershowitz-on-israel-and-proportionality/


http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/arti...lt-on-gaza.html

http://www.zmag.org/zvideo/2961

Posted by: Deeznuts at January 9, 2009 10:56 AM

nemo 2 - It's like blaming All Canadians for elected Chretien. Palestinians voted for Hamas rather than Fatah because Fatah had become totally corrupt, while Hamas was focusing on providing social services to the people. That is, people didn't for an ideology; they voted for immediate local assistance. They weren't getting it from Fatah which was busily taking all the international funds for itself.

I'm not sure of your point, Mississauga Matt. Tel Aviv isn't under attack.

My own view is that this attack will simply inflame more youths to join Hamas and other militant organizations.

Posted by: ET at January 9, 2009 11:01 AM

You do know that Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, and all they got for their troubles were more terror attacks?

You do know that prior to 67 Gaza was "occupied" by Egypt? That Judea and Sumaria were occupied by Jordan? Please find us the "International Court's" ruling on that.

You do know that Egypt has a security fence along its border with Gaza, under which the Pals have dug tunnels that strangely can only transport weaponry but neither food nor medical supplies? Please supply the "International Court's" opinion on that too.

Posted by: Mississauga Matt at January 9, 2009 11:05 AM

Those air bursting munitions look like time fused 155mm artillery smoke rounds. Hamass cant shoot if they cant see.

Posted by: Grobe at January 9, 2009 11:05 AM

Umm, isn't the doctor in the glasses Dr. Mads Gilbert? Seem he's rather well known for some interesting political views . . .

Posted by: the rat at January 9, 2009 11:06 AM

ET: If Mr Chretien had run on a platform, (similar to that of Hamas's Charter), where his avowed intent was to, say, 'obliterate the US', and he had already begun firing rockets across the border, is it possible that he might not have enjoyed quite the majority he received, (social programs notwithstanding)?

Posted by: Nemo2 at January 9, 2009 11:09 AM

I wonder what will happen when Obama takes over? Will the lefties still blame the U.S. for everything,even at the peril of being called racist?....Anyways,back to the media. Yesterday the BIG story was about the UN stopping aid because da joos were making it way too dangerous.Unfortunately,the other side of the story,like the videotape of Hamas using UN ambulances as troop carriers,was never shown or mentioned.

Posted by: wallyj at January 9, 2009 11:09 AM

The "point" about Tel Aviv is that I'm just prepping the even-handed Leftists for the day - which will be soon - when rockets fall on that city.

Posted by: Mississauga Matt at January 9, 2009 11:11 AM


Wow! another video out of Palliwood. The MSM - dumb-dumber-dumbest.

Should Israel stop blasting the Gaza - absolutely not. After years of rocket launches into their territory they have all the right to finish Hamas off. No need for them to pay one iota of attention to the MSM and the fans of Hamas in any country that are denouncing them for this latest escapade.

Eventually, no matter how many slurs and insults you throw at people or countries, it is human nature to thumb your nose, people get immune to the name calling. That is what is happening here in Canada. We are called racists pigs, red necks etc.etc.etc. Do we care - not any longer. It's like water on a ducks back. Keep throwing the s@#t and we cease to pay attention to you. Before you know it, we will be exactly what you call us.

I hope Israel finishes this damn job and goes after Lebanon and Iran post haste.

Posted by: dolly at January 9, 2009 11:14 AM

ET: Also, to repeat a comment I posted on another thread, I was first in the M.E. in 1963 and was informed by numerous Syrians, Iraqis, etc, at that time that they were going to invade Israel and "Kill Jews", so I fear your comment, ("My own view is that this attack will simply inflame more youths to join Hamas and other militant organizations."), is somewhat redundant, they don't need inflaming or encouraging.

Posted by: Nemo2 at January 9, 2009 11:15 AM

The Pallywood productions coming out of Hamasistan are a disgrace. Poorly shot, easily fisked and over the top.

Where's Green Helmet Guy when you need him ? The crews in Hisbollahstan are laughing their well used asses off, the Iranians are apoplectic because they paid for this crap and the Arab world's "street" bemoans the level that their propaganda has sunk. You'd find more depth in parking lot puddle on a hot July day.

Posted by: Fred at January 9, 2009 11:18 AM

Good catch rat. I wonder if he's a CNN contributor now?

Posted by: dp at January 9, 2009 11:19 AM

Deezenuts, you may not be aware of this, but Wikipedia is not a trustworthy source of info for contentious issues. There's a thriving cottage industry of jerks modifying the articles to suit their own view/agenda/perversion.

The Uzi machine pistol, the Galil rifle, the Merkava tank, and a whole buttload of parts, electronics and munitions (including air to air, air to ground missiles, artillery ammo, bombs, seeker heads, lasers, blah blah blah) are made IN Israel. Its a national policy to source as much of their war kit as possible at home, because too many times the international community has cut them off from supply... but not their opponents. Recently, I might add, not in ancient times. I remember it.

I fail to see why you and the rest of the Left leaning crazy people in this country have a problem with hunting down and killing guys who fire missiles and mortar rounds at tanks from places where civilians are hiding.

Hamas does not act in any way to protect the people of Gaza. Rather the put them in peril as a means of defaming the Israelis. That's some pretty expensive propaganda, don't you think?

And then there's this little datum you've ignored. Hamas couldn't even scrounge up a real wounded kid for this video! If things are as bad as y'all say, there should be busted corpses and dying kids all over the frickin' place. But here's the Paliwood Propaganda Production in full swing, tanks are blowing sh1t up, airplanes are bombing the hell out of everything, and they can't even find an actual wounded kid? Come ON!

Gee, maybe they're LYING about the dire horror? Maybe the IDF is driving around NOT killing, maiming and destroying everything in sight? Maybe you're being taken for a sleigh ride by a bunch of guys who'd sooner see you dead than talk to you?

Consider the possibility, eh?

Posted by: The Phantom at January 9, 2009 11:44 AM

CNN was opining on the lack of professional credentials of "Joe the Media Rep." His goal is to go talk to avarage Israelis. Doesn't it seem odd that an org. like CNN would feel average people should not talk to average people.Lose the hairdryer and the makeup and would she have a job?

Posted by: Speedy at January 9, 2009 11:51 AM

Where's the sanity shown by anyone trying to explain away any crazy sect or movement firing rockets into a neighboring state?

There's no way on earth any country could ignore being attacked like this. Now we have all the bleeding heart Left weeping and wailing about the killing of Palestinians. Killing Jews OK, killing Palestinians bad.

Has anyone of the 'informed' people here heard of any time the Israelis have used their own women and children as human shields?

Time to wake up and realize what we're dealing with and realize how unlikely it is there can be any permanent resolution without policing the region for the long haul.

Posted by: Liz J at January 9, 2009 11:53 AM

So the israeli's get sme weapons from the US...and Hamas gets some weapons from Iran and Syria....whats the point?

That Israel dominates the region militarily....whats the point, Iraq was the dominant power for awhile in its neighborhod, now it is Iran....whats the point?

The embargo is also put in place by Egypt. But more importantly, if you dont do an emnbargo then you have to engage in military actions if a neighbour is engaging in threatening behaviour. So which is it, until hamas is willing to negotiate, embargo or military all the time?

End of the day, the Gazans need to accept that Israel will exist and stop firing rockets.....do those two things and tomorrow is completely different world. How hard is that to accept. In both cases these are "free things" in that acceptance of Israel's right to exist and the seccation of rocketfire cost the population nothing.

Not everything Israel does is correct but this hardly constitutes anything beyond the norm in the region.

BTW, if 100 Paelstinian prisoners = 1 Israeli, the last time the exhanged prisoners it was about that, then fatal casualties are running disproportionately against Israel right now.

Posted by: Stephen at January 9, 2009 11:59 AM

SDC, I do not think that there are any innocent bystanders in Gaza. For any criminal enterprise to flourish, there has to be some kind of implicit or explicit agreement with the host community. If a criminal gang is intolerable, you either move away, or you get them to move away. The fact that Criminal organizations like Hamas and Fatah have existed in Gaza for decades, tells me that the residents of Gaza want them there.

I think the people in the West Bank are the ones who actually get it here; they are simply going about their business, going to work, taking care of their families. As for the people in Gaza, the only conclusion I can rationally come to is that they are living the lifestyle they want to live.

Posted by: Kevin in Sk at January 9, 2009 12:06 PM

When Obama takes over and continues to carry on US foreign policy, many leftard heads will explode.

Change? Ha.

Any time I listen to Obama speak, the only change he speaks about is a return to personal responsibility.

Personal responsibility is hardly the underpinnings of the delusional left.

When Obama comes out and says Hamas extremists were responsible for provocation, millions of heads will explode.

Posted by: set you free at January 9, 2009 12:08 PM

I'm no expert but a few things do seem out of whack besides the CPR.

I'd think that if that rooftop, with "scores of women and children", was hit by a rocket, there'd be more damage than pock-marked walls and more than 2 deaths.

I've never seen a funeral procession in Gaza that didn't involve a cast of thousands parading through the streets, the body aloft.

I thought drones by definition were pilot-less. With or without a pilot, are they capable of firing rockets?

Posted by: Kathryn at January 9, 2009 12:17 PM

Set you free said: "When Obama comes out and says Hamas extremists were responsible for provocation, millions of heads will explode."

No they won't. Nobody is going to hear him say it. CNNABCNBCCBSCBCCTVBBCAlJazeera will show it one (1) time, at 2AM. Then it'll be back to the fake wounded kid.

Posted by: The Phantom at January 9, 2009 12:19 PM

"SDC, I do not think that there are any innocent bystanders in Gaza."

On the whole, I'd agree with you, but those children who end up being maimed or killed because uncle Mo decided to launch a Kassam out of his back yard or schoolyard clearly don't deserve to die for it; uncle Mo clearly does.

Posted by: SDC at January 9, 2009 12:20 PM

Remember Mason, when he was interviewed years ago by some news outfit he was asked about Iatolla Komani's crap in the middle east he said drop a bomb level the place and make a parking lot out of it. At the time I thought god what a dork, now I'm starting to wonder if he was on to something, harsh but well????????? the other pete.

Posted by: the other pete at January 9, 2009 12:21 PM

"I thought drones by definition were pilot-less. With or without a pilot, are they capable of firing rockets?"

Yes, Kathryn, the newer drones are, the Predator for example. These aircraft are piloted completely by remote control, and can be controlled by their ground operators on the other side of the world; the highly-successful Predator strikes in Afghanistan are controlled from California, with flight and weapons commands being relayed through satellites. Besides Hellfire missiles, these aircraft also have laser designators, so that they can point a laser at a given target, and laser-guided munitions like bombs, missiles and artillery shells will home in on the source of laser backscatter off of the target.

Posted by: SDC at January 9, 2009 12:26 PM

Ctv newsnet just had a reporter telling us how there are now over 700 dead,and about 200 of them are children.He also noted that western journalists are not allowed into Gaza. These figures are supplied by Hamas and should be taken with a very large grain of salt.By my reckoning,4 days ago there was 400 dead,35 which may have been civilians.Since then,if you believe the latest report,more than half the deaths have been children.The IDF appear to be targetting children. I don't think so,however I do think the 200 children lie will be reported over and over.

Posted by: wallyj at January 9, 2009 12:28 PM

Deeznuts:: you are citing Press TV Persian branch as credible source for facts? Fact is the Persians are supplying the rockets to Hamas and that they are stating that "Norwegian medics" are the source for the "depleted uranium" diagnosis, PLLEEAASSE!!!!!

Posted by: uuess at January 9, 2009 12:34 PM

Yes, ET...it is terrible that Israel is dropping munitions on heavily populated areas. But, please remember:

- they are essentially at war. When a neighbouring country / territory / whatever lobs 3000 rockets into your country, they have effectively declared war. Hell, they even have it written down in their own Charter that they want to eliminate Israel!
- Hamas is the "duly elected" REPRESENTATIVE of the Gazan populace...get it? They REPRESENT them and act ON THEIR BEHALF. When the world was at war with Germany / Japan, Germans and Japanese were the enemy and many "innocent" Germans and Japanese were killed. In war, every war, civilians are killed.
- as for dropping bombs on populated areas, what about WWII London, Berlin, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc. and ad nauseum? Where were all of the hand-wringers then when all of that was going on?
- I believe that the Geneva conventions require that combatants wear uniforms, keep their forces away from civilian populations and not use civilians as human shields, etc. Hamas is violating the Geneva conventions...where is the outcry?

Your mechanistic / logical academic "analysis" of the Middle East situation just doesn't adequately take into account the emotional / religious / cultural aspect of the situation. In my opinion, these Gazans have been thoroughly indoctrinated and brainwashed into a WHITE-HOT, SEARING, SEETHING HATRED of Jews and this has been going on FOR GENERATIONS! Giving them (the "Palestinians") the land and governmental autonomy (in my opinion) WILL NOT make ONE IOTA of difference to them...their HATRED has completely twisted them to focus on death to the Jews regardless.

Posted by: Eeyore at January 9, 2009 12:39 PM

nemo2 - a generation ago, before the occupation, and yet while there was still no sign of a Palestinian state, sure, you'd get people saying they'd like to 'kill Jews' because of what they felt was an incursion into the area. Just as you get Israeli settlers saying they want to 'kill Arabs' and I'm sure you must realize that settlers do feel and say such things. They are human on both sides of the issue.

But the youth of Gaza, who are for the most part, under the age of 20, have no experience of anything other than occupation, and, since Hamas took over right after Israel left Gaza, of the Israeli blockade. And, still, no Palestinian state. They are ripe for recruitment because of this.

Kevin in SK, your theory then assumes that All Canadians are co-conspirators in Chretien's Adscam. And because we didn't leave Canada, we are as guilty as all the Sponsorship guys.

By the way, it is extremely difficult for a Palestinian to 'move away' from Gaza or the West Bank. Where would they move to? Who would accept them? How would they finance the move? Remember, they aren't citizens of a country; they only have 'travel documentation'.

The people in the West Bank don't 'get it'. And I have to ask - Get What? Get that Israel has no intention of enabling a Palestinian state? The people in the West Bank aren't just 'going about their business, going to work'. You ignore that the settlements and the Wall have in many cases denied them of their farms, their work - and even, getting to work in another village or in Israel.

The people in Gaza couldn't 'go to work' because their few industries were primarily fresh fruit and vegetable produce destined ONLY for Israel, and some furniture manufacture. When Israel closed the borders to all but humanitarian imports and to ALL Exports - in 2007 and 2008, that ended their ability to 'go to work'.

The ME situation, which includes the I-P situation, and Arab fascism, and Iranian imperialism, is NOT a simple binary framework of Israel good; Arabs bad. It's much more nuanced and complex than that, and I feel it is unworthy of us in the West to move into such game-playing scenarios (ie, going to a football/hockey match and rooting only for one side).

The ME is not a sports event; the causes, the people, the agendas are complex; are filled with levels and levels of cultural and historical narratives which 'outspeak' each other, are contradictory, are multiple, are often incompatible with each other even within the same group - and I think that we can't protect ourselve from these complexities by any simple conclusion of X-good and Y-bad.

Posted by: ET at January 9, 2009 12:39 PM

SDC,

Thanks. A quick look at Wiki says Predators are weapon-equipped but it doesn't show that Israel uses them. I did find, again through Wiki, that Israel uses Herons but it doesn't say that they are weapon-equipped.

I remain skeptical, not only that a drone fired a rocket at that building, but that a rocket was fired at all.

Posted by: Kathryn at January 9, 2009 12:40 PM

ET- A generation ago you might hear people saying they want to kill Jews?

Try hopping into a taxi in Calgary, and asking the driver how to solve the Palestinian conflict. 9 of 10 will say "kill all the Jews". Anybody on the streets of any big Canadian city on 9/11 saw middle eastern people cheering and screaming allah ackbar.

Are you of German descent by any chance? I had an interesting conversation with one of my son's friends last night. He commented that nuking Israel would solve the problem. I was taken aback at first, but remembered his dad is the son of a German POW that stayed in Canada after the war. Old habits die hard.

Your apologistic attitude isn't changing anybody's mind, I'm afraid.

Posted by: dp at January 9, 2009 1:14 PM

ET seems to have made some progress in understanding that there is zero prospect for a "Palestinian" state, probably due to the wise words of our DJ Vitruvius (even though I've been making the same argument since first coming here 3-4 years ago). But of course, without the gravitas.

BUT, she continues to retail the bogus and slanderous charge that Israel failed to "enable" such a state. I consider this charge to be -- I have to say it ET -- out and out, certifiable moonbattery. This is classic leftism -- seeing vicious genocidal aggressors as underdogs and passive victims without moral agency.

As others have pointed out here and elsewhere, ET, your approach is too academic, too esoteric, too cerebral. This is what I've meant in the past by referring to your lack of "street smarts" on this issue.

And, that's being kind.

Posted by: Me No Dhimmi at January 9, 2009 1:29 PM

The air-bursting "munitions" are called parachute flairs. They are flares which shoot outward and rain down slowly to light up a large area to enable more precise attacks instead of blindly shooting in the dark.

Posted by: eljay at January 9, 2009 1:40 PM

dp


ET is an academic (PHD)who sit in a fluffy chair in an ivory tower and is unable to grasp that text book "knowledge" takes a second seat to "street smarts". I'v had to deal with one or two of these types in my working life.


I would suggest that ET google Salim Mansur (PHD) who teaches sociology (as I recall) at western. Dr Mansur is of Indian Muslim heritage, born in Kenya, and educated in England, and has written extensively on this topic (and muslim social/religious/ideology) over time.

Posted by: GYM at January 9, 2009 1:48 PM

dp - good heaven's no, I'm not of German descent, and I don't think within any 'hereditary' mindset perspective. I can think for myself, thankyou.

As for your Calgary cabdrivers - so what. We get the same kind of verbiage about Muslims on this blog. I would hope that we, as rational, questioning and exploratory minds, would be able to move outside of such primitive biases.

sorry, me no dhimmi, my views on Israel-Palestine haven't been changed by vitruvius, much as I esteem and respect him. My views that there is no possibility of a Palestinian state are based on the factual realities of the increased settlements of the West Bank by Israel over the past two years. That in itself tells me that the verbiage about 'a future Palestinian state' is meaningless.

No, I don't think that my claim that Israel has failed to enable a Palestinian state is 'bogus and slanderous'. Settling the West Bank is a reality; it's not bogus. How can you slander the truth?

And recognizing the truth is 'street smarts', while your, and others' reductionist views that 'all Israelis are good and well-intentioned' and 'all Palestinians are genocidal aggressors' is, if I may say, pure cerebral fantasy.

People aren't as basic and simple as your outline; one population can't be reduced to 'All X are Good' while All Y are bad'. And the situation in the ME isn't as simple as you outline.

Again, Israel's settling the land set aside for a Palestinian state is a clear indication that NO such state can develop in the future.

What should Israel have done? Enabled a Palestinian state by working with the Palestinian peoples themselves; that is, the farmers, the workers, the local people.. and along with the international community, worked to develop the West Bank for Palestinians (not settlers as Israel has done). That means, the farms, the irrigation, the roads would be for a Palestinian economy (not for a settler economy as it now is) - an economy tightly linked to that of Israel.

Same in Gaza - an economy tightly linked to that of Israel.
And, to have recognized a state of Palestine (which Israel has never done).

So far, no-one has explained to me why the settlements in the West Bank are not to be viewed as effectively ending a future Palestinian state and rendering any talk about such a state as bogus. And no, I'm not interested in explanations such as 'there's no such thing as a Palestinian' or 'the Jewish people were there first 2,000 years ago' or 'they won the war'.

Since the Israeli, Palestinian and international talk has been about a proposed Palelstinian state, then these arguments are empty. My question is - how does settling the West Bank, which includes Israeli-only roads, Israeli-only use of water - how does this go towards enabling a Palestinian state?

And again, it may be intellectually and emotionally comforting to conclude that All X people are good and All Y people are bad, but I've yet to see any situation, outside of films and novels, which operate that way.

Posted by: ET at January 9, 2009 1:55 PM

ET said "What should Israel have done? Enabled a Palestinian state by working with the Palestinian peoples themselves; that is, the farmers, the workers, the local people."

Has there ever been any indication that the Palestinians would be even marginally receptive to such 'cooperative efforts'?

Posted by: Nemo2 at January 9, 2009 2:01 PM

Israel doesn't use Predators - they fly the "Mahatz" (Heron) and I don't believe they have armed it yet.

Canada has just acquired Herons.

Those pictures we are seeing on the news - the ones with a downward cone of smoke trails, are not "parachute flares". They are 155mm air bursts - the modern version of Henry Shrapnel's original invention.

The RCA is using the same munition in Afghanistan - very devastating to group targets in small open areas.


Posted by: Fred at January 9, 2009 2:05 PM

gym - Salim Mansur is a friend of mine. We've talked extensively by email and over coffee about these and other issues and have similar views on many things. He's in the political science department.

I agree with you, in large part, about academics, but, obviously, not with reference to myself. Again, don't make the reductionist error of claiming that IF one is an academic, THEN, one is also 'not street smart'.

However, I think that there's more to the reality of the ME than street smarts - whatever that means to each of us; I think that information about the history, the mindset, the actual things done (eg, road development, water development, economic devt etc) is important.

Posted by: ET at January 9, 2009 2:08 PM

After all is said and done, the basic ingredient in Gaza is Hatred that is advocated, taught, preached and historically mandated by the Islamic faith, if you can call it that, and I guess you can.

There is a fundamental faith that if you kill a Jew, you're cool. Very difficult to make peace when you have a cultural indoctrination like this, and having no wall or big walls, border check points or no border check points, has nothing to do with it. It's their reason for being!!

I keep hearing proportional response and comparative casualty figures. It’s not a hockey game where you’re supposed to stop scoring when you’re ahead. Check out the Us and Them figures for WW2. Nothing proportional there, and that was a good thing.

Posted by: Pat at January 9, 2009 2:19 PM

I enjoy reading your comments ET. And I enjoy your respectful tone, and the fact that you do not engage in hyperbole and name calling, both of which are boring.

Certainly, this is a complex issue. The sad answer is that the reasonable individual can see the desperation and futility of this situation and can understand (though not necessarily justify) the actions of each "side".

I do not see a solution in the forthcoming years. Likely, demographic imperatives (growth and strength) will sort this out long term.

Posted by: Erik Larsen at January 9, 2009 2:24 PM

As a physician who has just finished doing a resuscitation last shift, I agree with the analysis by Last Mohican.

The CPR is fake. There is no ventilation, the chest compressions are pitiful.

Moreover the interesting thing is that the monitor is beeping, but doesn't look like it has asystole on it. In fact it is making the noise it makes when it is unplugged from the patient or an error vs. a serious interpreted event (some monitors can tell if their leads are plugged in). Also while it is beeping the caucasian doctor is putting the chest lead electrodes on the kid's chest, while the other guy is doing fake CPR, meaning the monitor was not actually attached to the patient.

Posted by: langmann at January 9, 2009 2:31 PM

In Gaza the war is fought with rockets and bombs but out here, safe and sound the war is being fought via the media. Unfortunatly, the media are for the most part not the most reliable source of information as can be seen in the CNN fauxtography. Hell, CBC's insight is being fed by a reporter from Al Jazera, for crying out loud. CTV is busy interviewing by phone "Canadians" who want out of Gaza but not if they have to return to Canada. They seem to mistake Foreign Affairs Department with Tourism Bureau.

Fortunatly, there is the internet where one can look around and find lots of info, just have to put on your own filters to get to the truth. The IDF actually have some gunsight footage available on U-Tube. Propaganda, maybe but at least there is another side to see.

btw, Phantom, lookes like you hooked a live one with Deezenuts. A koolade drinker fer sure.

Posted by: Texas Canuck at January 9, 2009 2:32 PM

Pol Pot was right about one thing. People like "ET" have absolutely no social value.

Posted by: dp at January 9, 2009 2:33 PM

ET:
The settlements: what percentage of the land mass of Judea-Samaria? Is it 4-5%. What's the settler population: is it around 150,000 or so? Did they steal the land?

As you know all of Palestine was intended for the Jews beginning with the Balfour Declaration of 1917, after which in 1922, 77% of it was cut away for Adbullah's TransJordan -- for Arabs of Palestine. No Jews allowed. Judenrein.

Judea-Samaria was part of the Jewish allotment in the Mandate.
Yes, the 1947 partition did exclude Judea-Samaria, but the partition became (res #181) a dead letter when it was rejected by the Arabs who instigated an intended annihilationist war against Israel. Interestingly in the early 90s the Arabs tried to revive Res. 181, knowing of course that it would entail Israel's exit from the West Bank. But they failed. Dead letter. Not in force. REJECTED. Israel stayed because the Arabs REJECTED all negotiations.

Do you favour a judenrein Judea-Samaria? Why? Is so, are you telling me Muslims can't live with Jews in their midst? Would this be due to Islam (forget islamofascism, an unfortunate distraction). Gaza is, of course, judenrein. Did that help?

How about an Arab-free Israel? Are you in favour of ethnic cleansing? I am, when two peoples ("peoples" with reference to the "Palestinians") can't live together as equal partners. (see Pakistan).

Are you aware that Jews are LEGALLY permitted to live anywhere between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, which of course would include Gaza and Judea-Samaria? This is clearly stated in the Mandate, League of Nations. Continued with the successor UN. Never changed. The settlements may or may not be wise (good politics) but they are not illegal. A "street smart" player doesn't give up stuff taken LEGALLY in a defensive war without a quid pro quo from the enemy. Especially when dealing with Arab-muslims who see all concessions as weakness to be exploited, who consider all agreements with the infidels, hudnas (treaties to be broken when enough strength has been attained). Afflicted with liberal cognitive egocentrism, you simply cannot GET THIS, ET.

Yes, your charge is bogus, as is your additional claim that the "settlers" are a true obstacle to peace, instead of a handy bit of agitprop for western consumption, which you've swallowed whole. Bogus on its very face, considering the outcome of removing all 10,000 Jews from Gaza.

Posted by: Me No Dhimmi at January 9, 2009 2:38 PM

It is the iron law of every colonizing movement, a law which knows of no exceptions, a law which existed in all times and under all circumstances. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not "difficult," not "dangerous" but impossible!... Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot-or else I am through with playing at colonization.

Vladimir Jabotinsky, one of the founding fathers of the Zionist movement, wrote in 1923:

Posted by: Shawn at January 9, 2009 2:44 PM

CTV is now reporting that Israel is using white phosphorus, in violation of Geneva Convention rules. They have footage! It looks real.

That's gonna smart.

Posted by: dp at January 9, 2009 2:47 PM

ET said:

"My own view is that this attack will simply inflame more youths to join Hamas and other militant organizations."

What is the point? It isn't Israel or anyone else's responsibility to stop youths from joining terrorist organizations. The youths that join Hamas deserve their fates.

The best lesson I have learned from a councilor is that someone else can not make you feel a certain way(ie inflamed). How someone feels is solely that persons responsibility. It is this projection of blame that prevents the person who feels that way from taking responsibility and feeling better.


Kevin said:
"SDC, I do not think that there are any innocent bystanders in Gaza. For any criminal enterprise to flourish, there has to be some kind of implicit or explicit agreement with the host community. If a criminal gang is intolerable, you either move away, or you get them to move away. The fact that Criminal organizations like Hamas and Fatah have existed in Gaza for decades, tells me that the residents of Gaza want them there."

I agree with this statement. Similar to the situation with Lebanon not long ago I think civilians in most cases are just as responsible as the terrorists themselves. IMO(I'm not saying I'm right) WRT the war on terror, the difference between warring with Hamas and Palestine is a facade. These people elected this government, and the government is waging war on a sovereign nation. The fact that civilians allow military groups to operate from their backyards makes them culpable!

Could someone tell me where I'm wrong here.

Posted by: Indiana Homez at January 9, 2009 2:54 PM

ET, I'm not picking on you ok? Just so you know.

Going back to something you said at 11am, "My own view is that this attack will simply inflame more youths to join Hamas and other militant organizations."

Madam, I beg to point out: this is not the problem. Hamas is a glorified street gang. We have street gangs here too. Maybe not quite as perverse and disgusting, but still. They're here.

The difference is, our home grown and even imported a-holes are not being armed by foreign powers. The Mohawk Warrior Society for example is not being supplied with guns, RPGs, C4 and rockets by the State of New York, for the purpose of doing war on the province of Ontario.

If more punks join Hamas, Fatah, PLO or whatever it doesn't matter a damn, really. What matters is shutting off the flow of foreign arms. Without munitions the most these cretins can do is wave flags around and beat the hell out of each other behind The Wall in Gaza and the West Bank.

That's why I disagree with your about the possibility of a Palestinian State. Making a street gang into a state, that could be a bad thing.

With statehood comes the power to control borders. Which means Iran, Syria and [woo!] Saudi Arabia would be able to freely ship BIG missiles into Gaza, and plausibly deny they had anything to do with the launching of those weapons and the killing of 10^n Israelis. Chose your own exponent based on how much bang the Arab states get for their spent-in-China buck. If they pony up for chemical weapons, n will be large.

Therefore, I see no reasonable alternative for the Israelis at this time to do other than what they are doing: destroying Hamas's missile infrastructure and killing their sh1thead gunmen one at a time, in Gaza.

Declaring war on Syria, Egypt, Iran and Saudi Arabia and nuking the hell out of the lot of them is within Israel's power, don't forget. They could nuke Mecca. Foosh, instant self lit parking lot with glass paving. That'd be pretty special, eh?

Maybe driving tanks around in Gaza is the least crappy choice available. I'm sure all those IDF dudes would rather be clubbing in Tel Aviv than clubbing Pali gunmen in Gaza, right?

Posted by: The Phantom at January 9, 2009 3:08 PM

me no dhimmi - I think it's useless to bring up the Balfour outline of 1917. Indeed, it had an intention of a Jewish state, to deal with 'The Jewish problem throughout the world' (???)and Balfour expressly stated that the Jewish state was to be set up 'in Palestine' without consulting the 700,00 Arabs living there' - quite an elitist and colonial attitude in my view.

Do I favour nations that exclude other ethnic or religious groups? No, I don't. We live in a global world. I am aware that Israel wants a Jewish majority, other Arab nations want a Sharia Law which obviously requires a Muslim majority. This is their wish - and most certainly, I can't influence either national agendas!

Can Jews live with Muslims; can Muslims live with Jews? Of course both peoples can. That's not the point. It's the national official policy that is the point.

The occupation, in my view, is illegal in that it runs counter to the proposal for a Palestinian state. To declare that Israel 'won' it in a war would also mean that Britain should occupy Germany..and so on. And also, IF the West Bank and Gaza were 'won' in a war, then ALL discussion about a Palestinian state OUGHT to have ended. Completely. Over and done with.

But it didn't. The rhetoric continued. Why? Because Israel has no intention of absorbing the Palestinians in these 'conquered territories' (West Bank and Gaza) as Israeli citizens. Because of the requirement for a Jewish majority.

This means that these territories could either be handed over to the Palestinians for a state, which Israel refused to do- and Palestinians rejected the Israeli offer of only municipal governance while Israel retained full control over the land, borders, water, air; or, it could continue to occupy them and increaseingly settle them..in the hopes that the Palestinians would leave. I think the latter is the Israeli agenda.

I didn't know that I was 'afflicted with a liberal cognitive egocentrism'! heh -That's quite an ailment, me no dhimmi, and I'm sorry, but I don't feel so afflicted. I disagree with your perspective but I don't feel that you are bogus or afflicted with any ailment.

We just have different data bases, analyses, views. I'm not going to claim that there is anything cognitively or emotionally or psychologically wrong with you because I don't believe that one's opinions are 'essentialist', ie, either 'right or wrong' and as such, caused by some aberration of being. No, we have different data bases and analyses. That's it.

As for zionism and colonialism, shawn, I'm aware that zionism has been defined as 'colonizing' but I don't see it that way. Colonization in my view means occupation of a land base and absorbing the inhabitants within the new governance. I don't think that zionism had that agenda towards the Palestinian population.

Posted by: ET at January 9, 2009 3:15 PM

dp said "CTV is now reporting that Israel is using white phosphorus, in violation of Geneva Convention rules. They have footage! It looks real.

That's gonna smart."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm

Quote: "White Phosphorus (WP) - Smoke
White Phosphorus (WP) creates a smoke screen as it burns. Phosphorus smokes are generated by a variety of munitions. Some of these munitions such as the M825 (155-mm round) may, on explosion, distribute particles of incompletely oxidized white phosphorus.

Smokes obscure vision and are used to hide troops, equipment, and areas from detection. Smoke screens are essential for movement in city fighting. In the December 1994 battle for Grozny in Chechnya, every fourth or fifth Russian artillery or mortar round fired was a smoke or white phosphorus round."

Posted by: Nemo2 at January 9, 2009 3:18 PM

I can just picture the 'Green Helmet Guy' standing in the corner yelling "Where is the machine that goes 'ping'? The CNN crew is nearly here and we need the machine that goes 'ping'!!"

Posted by: robp at January 9, 2009 3:35 PM

The occupation, in my view, is illegal in that it runs counter to the proposal for a Palestinian state.

In your view ET. But not according to international law as I understand it. They took the land in a defensive war and all attempts at negotiating with the Arabs were REJECTED. Life an death. National survival.

I had not intended this as an insult at all:

Liberal cognitive egocentrism, a Richard Landes coinage, I think: not being able to get out of your own mindset [on this issue!] and see the conflict from the other party's POV, which, for the umpteenth (heh!) is that the Arabs of Palestine want Israel destroyed and Jews murdered, or in the very best case scenario, Jews living as dhimmis in the former Israel. The one state solution, which is their objective.

ET, you should really demur from a casual use of terms like "legal" and "illegal". As you know, lefties tend to do this when, for example, by rote, they spout the error that the Iraq war was illegal. Illegal = I don't agree with it.

Posted by: Me No Dhimmi at January 9, 2009 3:39 PM

indiana homez - we have criminal gangs here, and that doesn't mean that we Canadians are ALL responsible for their existence. We had Chretien's Sponsorship/Adscam scandal, and that doesn't mean that ALL Canadians who elected him were responsible for his behaviour.

I happen to be in favour of the Iraq War, and so were many Americans - and a lot were NOT in favour of it. Because the US government went to war did not mean that ALL Americans approved. So, your attempt to merge ALL Palestinians with Hamas is invalid.

phantom, I agree with your focus on the source of the weapons, which is different from my focus on the numbers of radicals in Palestine. However, I do not agree that ALL Palestinians are radicals or 'cretins' or 'genocidal aggressors (MND)'. Therefore, my view is that IF one dealt with the Palestinian man-on-the-street (not the corrupt Fatah or radical Hamas) and worked with them to develop an economy, you'd get far more success and support.

And, the reality of a Palestinian state would mean that the people would focus on the progressive improvement of their daily lives, there's be no need to 'import arms' against Israel, which would become their largest and most important ECONOMIC partner.

I think that the solution to Islamic fascism in the Arab states - generated out of their tribalism and refusal to modernize - is democracy. That's a slow solution, but I think that a democratic Arab state in their midst, eg, Palestine, would do more to deal with fascism than 'nuking them' - a solution which I find untenable.

So, we all continue to disagree. Ah well, that's what Fridays do to life.

Posted by: ET at January 9, 2009 3:42 PM

I support what ET has to say on this subject except for one thing.

Israel cannot be expected to play a noble role like the USA just did after taking out the despots in Iraq and then investing blood and treasure in nation building. I believe that worked in Iraq ( ok, ok , it could backslide and we may not know if it really worked for 15 years). But my point is, some Western party has to play a role in helping “Joe the Palestinian Plumber” have a livelihood.

Israel cannot do that.

Maybe the West can, but who?

But I do believe there has to be “hope” for some kind of economic viability for the Palestinians to dig themselves out of their miserable situation and their miserable mindset.

Finally, I confess to being heavily manipulated by the MSM over the years regarding the Palistine/Isreali situation and I’m still trying to sort out the facts and look like I’m vacillating when I do. I’m sure a lot of Western politicians feel the same way but can’t admit it.

Posted by: nomdeblog at January 9, 2009 3:45 PM

There's a great article in Pajamas Media today, on 'New Iraq emerges from Tyranny and War'. Google it and check it out.

It talks about how "The United States has succeeded in transforming a bellicose, autocratic state into a friendly one that is making steady progress towards becoming a self-sustaining democracy"

America gave Iraq a chance at democracy - and it took that chance..while so many in the world tried to prevent it, and tried to maintain the old tyranny.

I would hope that the world can give the Palestinians a chance at the same goal.

Posted by: ET at January 9, 2009 4:05 PM

langmann, the monitor may not have had an asystole on it but there definitely are a couple of asystoles standing in front of it.

The Toronto police expect 15,000 muslims and their supporters like Sid Ryan, OCAP, student union types marching to the Israeli embassy at Bloor and Avenue Road on Saturday. Hint, don't park your car in this general area as the "youths" have been known to torch a few in their exuberance.

ET, astounded at your statement saying Toronto has the biggest muslim population of any city in North America, that's scary to say the least.

Posted by: Dave at January 9, 2009 4:28 PM

I noticed one thing missing from the video - the wailing. I've seen lots of news reports of deaths in the Middle East and they all have one thing in common - wailing. There was no wailing here, just subdued crying. That alone should have been a dead giveaway (no pun intended) to the ‘reporter’.

Posted by: Timberlea gal at January 9, 2009 4:29 PM

"And again, it may be intellectually and emotionally comforting to conclude that All X people are good and All Y people are bad" says ET

I don't think anyone here is saying that. But what is wrong with looking at the history, looking at the facts, and picking a side. For all other conflicts on the planet it is appropriate to pick a side. Could you pick a side in the cold war, WWII, Iraq vs America and her allies, terrorists/West? Why must we throw up our hands and shout "both sides" when it comes to Israel/ArabMuslims?
and I cannot fathom how you think the presence of Jews destroys the possiblity for the Arabs of Palestine to have (their 2nd) state?

Posted by: ex-liberal at January 9, 2009 4:36 PM

ET, I do not think, nor have I said, that -all- Palestinians are cretins. That's one of those race-based hatred things, which are provably stupid. Only retards believe stuff like that.

Most people don't really give a crap about the Big Issues, they are just trying to get the orange crop in and complaining about their inlaws.

The question that arises though, is what will they put up with in their space? So far, the Palestinians of Gaza have been quite willing to put up with foreigners using their kids as human shields. This is not indicative of a healthy culture, yes?

I'm always optimistic about empowering the individual. Left to their own devices, people tend to behave themselves. So, if there was some -practical- way of keeping foreign interests out of Gaza, they'd all settle down and get back to the orange picking.

Maybe the Americans could "invade" Gaza and the West Bank, then offer them the same deal as Puerto Rico in 20 years. I can't imagine why they would bother, as there's nothing in it for them but grief, but it could work.

Short of that sort of deus ex machina visitation of peace-through-superior-firepower, there's no alternative for Israel. They have to go in and kick people in the ass until they stop trying to kill Israelis.

There's no magical answer for these kinds of issues, you know. Its the same as bank robbers. You can't let them keep robbing the bank, and you can't pay them off to stop 'cause the bank has more money than you want to pay them. You have to capture them and stick them in jail, or shoot them. That's the two options. Sucks, but there it is.

Posted by: The Phantom at January 9, 2009 4:50 PM

ex-liberal you raise interesting historical comparisons . Where would the loser Germany have been without the Marshall Plan?

I suspect right back in déjà vu 1919 and gearing up for another onslaught. That’s what Palestine is without a viable economy. Ergo: beat the crap out of Hezbollah and Hamas, finish them off, make sure the whole world knows we picked a winner and there is a loser …. Then we need a Marshall Plan for Palestine et al.

The Arabs and Iran will hate that idea because they don’t want the Palestinian problem solved. It is great propaganda for the Islamists and despots running the hell-holes throughout the region to point to the Isreali/Plai situation to recruit into their death cult.

Posted by: nomdeblog at January 9, 2009 5:16 PM

When the Gazans respond to direct warnings of imminent threats by calling all children to show their support and stand on the roof to stave off a bomb, and there is pride shown in these actions, what do you expect but an increase in the casualty count? There is a saying "careful what you wish for, you might just get it"? They loudly tell the world that they choose death, then complain when it comes to pass.

Israel works overtime to spare lives of innocents and simply gets it thrown in its face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE

Posted by: TruthSeeker at January 9, 2009 5:56 PM

ET

We'll have to disagree. I never voted for J.C. or P.M. but as a Canadian our soldiers were representing me when they were abroad. If our military commits atrocities(mandated) on innocent people then I believe that I and all Canadians responsible regardless of who we voted for. If a friend or family member of mine is a gang member committing crimes that I'm aware of, I'm just as guilty and evil if I turn a blind eye to it. If there is a crime committed that I have witnessed and I don't come forward to the police, I am an accomplice.

Turning a blind eye to evil is evil in itself, this is what the so called "civilians" are guilty of. This is not a military conducting operations on a base separate from civilian populations where those civilians can claim ignorance and innocence. This is a "gang" of criminals being enabled by their community. No enabling by the community equals no gang. The obvious argument is civilians are bullied by these gangs. Although this may be true, it is not an excuse. Part of liberty is having backbone ,and standing up for principles regardless of the personal costs. Black communities in the USA have a very similar problem. When black on black crimes are commited very few witnesses ever assist the police in solving these crimes. Why? They're cowards. They would rather tuck their tails then stand up and protect their communties.

"Coward" may be a human reaction but it is not an excuse, in fact, it too is evil.

Posted by: Indiana Homez at January 9, 2009 6:03 PM

ET a rhetorical question:

If Canada's mainland was under attack as Israel is, do you think that Hamas would only target Conservatives and Liberals?

Posted by: Indiana Homez at January 9, 2009 6:09 PM

ET

in the early stages (67-mid 80t's) the was a lot of trade/commerce/and labour crossing back and forth between Israel and the west bank, what caused the decline????


It was giving the palestinians what they wanted, "rule" by their selected leader, Arafat. And from there on things went down hill, because Arafat was not a leader/ nation builder, he was a pawn and a crook. He took monies from various sources and started a slow smouldering "war" with Israel, thus keeping the focus off himself and and his thievery. The Hamas were encouraged by the west (USA) to offset the effects of the PLO (Fatah), and now they have become the scourge. If the palestinians were to become sovereign the would, as Lebanon has, become and extension of Iran, fully armed with more powerful weapons and encouraged to attack Israel in unison with Hezbollah (Lebanon) and there would be huge life loses on all sides, with probable missile exchange with Iran, is this the type of scenario you propose, or can you not grasp this, because most of my "street" sources, whether they be pro or anti Israel predict the same out come of a sovereign palestine.

Posted by: GYM at January 9, 2009 7:18 PM

ET

and yes, I agree with you that the Palestinians should have their own land. Also I agree that most (not all) west bank settlements should be removed if there can not be an agreement between the Pals and the settlers to cohabit peacefully , to which I see as much resistance by the settlers as the Pals. Many of the settlers are both extremist and foreigners, that info comes from published interviews and from Israelis I worked with.

Posted by: GYM at January 9, 2009 7:27 PM

In the 80's no one could touch CNN. look how the mighty fall when there only thought is for Utopia on the Marxist road. They should have figured out long ago anything the Dippers do brings death in its multiple forms. Its so pathetic now with the internet, to see the false bias thown at us as competent journalism. Its why I stopped watching network news a while back.

CNN is now just a fable waiting to be born. An ill omen of the buzzards of elitism.Always seeking an oppertunity from the smell of socialist corruption.
JMO

Posted by: Revnant Dream at January 9, 2009 8:24 PM

gym - I fully agree with you about the corruption of Arafat; he didn't want a Palestinian state for then he'd lose power.

Equally, the Arab states don't want a Palestinian state for they don't want an Arab democracy in their midst as an example of 'what could be' to their own people.

However, I disagree with your street sources as to their suggestion that a Palestinian state would become an appendage of Iran.

An occupied Palestine has become that, but a free Palestinian people, aided by the international world to develop their own democracy (not with Fatah or Hamas as government); and with extensive economic links to Israel - need not become an appendage of Iran. Indeed, I would suggest (and so would the people I communicate with on this issue) that it would resist such a strategy by Iran and would act as a counter to Islamic fascism in the region.

Posted by: ET at January 9, 2009 8:31 PM

"My own view is that this attack will simply inflame more youths to join Hamas and other militant organizations." - ET

This is a fools response. Are we to fear this?

What ET is admitting is that she actually agrees with the majority of commenters. That is, that these people are so ridiculously blinded by ideological hate that they will throw their lives away and the lives of their children, in order to preserve their hatred.

As langmann posted at 2:31.

This is political theatre. These monsters will stoop to any level to preserve and grow their hatred of Jews. Taqiyya and Kitman are religiously sanctioned.

ET,

The vast majority of conflicts in this world are caused by Muslims. Including the agitation and conflicts they cause in lands to which they've immigrated.

Question:

If the ideology of Islam was removed in all its worst forms, starting with the inculcation of institutional, racist hatred perpetuated from generation to generation in the Palestinian education system and mosques, do you not think the situation would be resolved by now?

Posted by: irwin daisy at January 9, 2009 8:39 PM

irwin daisy - this is the last time I'll interact with you; I'm not interested in your defining my views as 'a fool's response'. Nor in your interpreting my comments to appear to make me agree that 'these people are blinded by hatred'.

In reply to your question about removing the ideology of Islam (in all its worst forms - and what do you mean by that?) and asking whether such an act would solve the problem, my answer is NO. You are, as usual, ignoring the economic infrastructure and ignoring the political infrastructure.

I've outlined the dysfunctional nature of a tribal political system within a large population - and its preventing a middle class economy from emerging many times. This is the cause of Islamic fascism.

I've also outlined to you that Islam can and is being modernized, re-interpreted and that Muslims are attempting, slowly, to modernize it so that it can function within a modern industrial democracy. You have disagreed that it can be done.

So, I don't think that we have much to debate about with each other. We have two completely different perspectives.

Posted by: ET at January 9, 2009 9:17 PM

If that's how Palestinean doctors do CPR, remind me not to have a heart attack in Gaza....

Posted by: Shere Khan at January 9, 2009 9:55 PM

Israel makes its own tank, the Merkava. It's pretty innovative.

Posted by: PiperPaul at January 9, 2009 10:00 PM

Shawn/Jabotinsky at 2:44 pm:

"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not "difficult," not "dangerous" but impossible!... "

This may have once been a universal rule, but not any more, as Muslims are proving in Europe and maybe soon in North America. All you have to do now to colonize is find a place where the people already living there are so addled by the nanny state, self-loathing and political correctness that no garrison is required to defend the colonization process. In fact, if it is needed, those being colonized may provide the garrison for you in the form of HRCs and other state organs that will abet the colonization and attempt to prevent the pre-existing population from even perceiving it.

Posted by: felis corpulentis at January 9, 2009 10:54 PM

Modernize? How so?

The only possible way that can happen is by discarding the Medina portion of the Quran, all of the Hadiths, the Sira and most importantly (included), their Prophet's sayings and actions.

Unless, of course, you have a better solution than the majority of the reformers, who also happen to be considered apostates?

And don't bother with the equivalency argument that Christianity was reformed, so therefore...

The foundation of Christianity, the NT and Christ's life example were not and did not need to be reformed. The politically motivated abuse, running contrary to the ideology did.

Your theory of Islamic appeasement is and has been a miserable failure throughout history.

That's what I meant by a fool's response. 'Don't aggravate them, otherwise more will become murderous wretches.'

As opposed to your pretentious and childish, "this is the last time I'll interact with you;" as long as you keep posting rubbish, I'll call you out on it. Respond or not. I could care less.

Posted by: irwin daisy at January 9, 2009 11:17 PM

Quite right, felis corpulentis.

What Clint Eastwood defined in Esquire Magazine as, "The pussy generation."

Posted by: irwin daisy at January 9, 2009 11:23 PM

In fact, if it is needed, those being colonized may provide the garrison for you in the form of HRCs and other state organs that will abet the colonization and attempt to prevent the pre-existing population from even perceiving it.
Posted by: felis corpulentis at January 9, 2009 10:54 PM

Well, you nailed that one felis corpulentis. This is one of the key theses in Walid Phares's books. Across the West, the university departments of Middle East Studies (sic) have made this their main project and have been wildly successful at it, as evidenced by that post 9/11 breast-beating refrain, "Whey Do They Hate Us".

Posted by: Me No Dhimmi at January 10, 2009 12:23 AM

"[The]charge is bogus, as is [the} additional claim that the "settlers" are a true obstacle to peace, instead of a handy bit of agitprop for western consumption.... Bogus on its very face, considering the outcome of removing all 10,000 Jews from Gaza.
Posted by: Me No Dhimmi at January 9, 2009 2:38 PM

And this is the rub of it. The Gazans could have had the beginning of their very own nascent state right now. It's been three years since the Israelis pulled out, lock stock and barrel.

What happened? Did the Gazans build schools? Roads? Hospitals? Ports? Social housing? Did they engage any other nations in trade treaties? Exchange programs? Defense agreements?

No.

They built smuggling tunnels. For weapons. They built rockets. Those rockets were fired into Israel.

I can only imagine the chaos that would ensue should the Israelis wholesale pull out of the West bank. The lesson from Gaza is clear.

Posted by: Colin from Mission B.C. at January 10, 2009 3:58 AM

... and destroyed those cutting-edge high-tech greenhouses which, amazingly, Israel left behind, in tact, which could have become the basis of an industry.

Posted by: Me No Dhimmi at January 10, 2009 11:57 AM

Paging the US Surgeon-General: Where is Sanjay Gupta when you need him?

To get back to the original post in the thread CNN has reposted the video, claiming that the bloggers are wrong and that the video is authentic. After all, the cameraman says so.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/07/holmes.gaza.boy.cnn

So CNN, has Sanjat given this the CNN/USSG seal of approval? If not, why not?

Posted by: Skip at January 10, 2009 12:33 PM

Ah yes, Skip, where were we ...

Little Green Footballs is sticking to its hoax charge. While CJ has pi**ed me off a lot lately, I DO trust him on this stuff, recalling his brilliant coup on the Rather fraud.

Posted by: Me No Dhimmi at January 10, 2009 1:19 PM

MND at 12:23 AM:

Yes, my post should have recognized the role of Middle East Studies and, indeed, much of Western academe in garrisoning the Islamic Colonization Project. Going further, at least in Europe, establishment politicians play a major role as well. And not all of the MSM facilitators are organs of the state.

Posted by: felis corpulentis at January 10, 2009 2:13 PM

Israel may have pulled out 3 years ago but they've also cut of Gaza from supplies...is starving and dieing from treatable diseases any better?

How would Gaza be able to do anything..it's not whether you trade with the world, it's whether the world trade's with you.

Posted by: Deeznuts at January 10, 2009 2:34 PM

How would Gaza be able to do anything..it's not whether you trade with the world, it's whether the world trade's with you.

Well then I suggest you take the 'World' to task for the problems of Palestine.

Posted by: Jan at January 10, 2009 9:18 PM

Deeznuts -- if Gaza was truly cut off, it would be a ghost town by now. That there are still 1.5 million residents kicking around puts the lie to your assertion.

That said, Israel certainly does enforce strict control over the border. Do you think this is done in a vacuum? Out of sheer malice? Just for the fun of it?

Or, perhaps, might there be legitimate security reasons to manage tight controls over the movement of people and supplies into Gaza? I think the abundance of rockets and AK-47s in the territory is sufficient answer to my question.

Posted by: Colin from Mission B.C. at January 10, 2009 10:59 PM
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