Tom Gross is cool. He said "bejeebers". ~:D

And now the answer to the BIG question of why Arab countries hate the United States of America: Because the U.S. of A prevents the Arab nations from slaughtering every single Jew on the planet. It is also the same reason so many lefties hate the United States of America. Plan, simple answer from here in -40 celsius Saskatoon Saskatchewan.

Any minute now new/haye/real/mos will be along to explain it all for you, Trent. You won't be able to read past the faux-broken English, but he'll be here.

ulianov will demonstrate why the super duper careful Israel Defense Force is eeeeevile while the slap-dash, if-it-moves-shoot-it Sri Lankan army can be trusted to do whatever it is they do without media supervision. He will make as much sense as new/etc.

This is why we mock you, you dorks.

Don't let this stand as a defense of *cough* "new, etc.", (I actually delete most of her comments), but the broken English is not a put on. I've talked to her on the phone.

Even more laughable is the silent streets when rockets are regularly fired into the regions only democracy by fanatical terrorists.

VDH, and Steyn both have good stuff out in the last few days. Their common thesis:

the "world community" and our "tolerant progressive left" here in the West, are tacitly, and in some instances explicitly, condoning the goal of the extinction of Isreal.

We've known that for awhile. What's new frightening is how open many are now being about it.

You'll notice, it goes on to say:

"Most analysts believe that a political agreement will be necessary to forge a lasting peace as the rebels turn to the guerrilla tactics that have enabled them to rebound from previous serious setbacks."

Amazing discovery of green algae which could save the world from global warming!!

Melting icebergs, so long the iconic image of global warming, are triggering a natural process that could delay or even end climate change, British scientists have found.

A team working on board the Royal Navy’s HMS Endurance off the coast of Antarctica have discovered tiny particles of iron are released into the sea as the ice melts.

The iron feeds algae, which blooms and sucks up damaging carbon dioxide (CO2), then sinks, locking away the harmful greenhouse gas for hundreds of years...

read more -->
http://hernadi-key.blogspot.com

Unlike ET's claim, I didn't think new's comments were a put on either, Kate. Although, I'm a little surprised that new is a she, what with some of the veiled death threats, etc.

But then, some of the Muslimahs - like the protestor caught on tape in Ft. Lauderdale the other day, shouting, "Back to the ovens" - can certainly be just as vile.

And I suppose, the Palestinian mothers who rather than packing a bag lunch for their kids, pack a suicide vest instead, stand as testament to the unisex appeal of ideological Islamic hatred.

Watched and listened to a talk by Brigitte Gabriel and it was incredible and frightening as she, a Lebanese Christian, talk about how her country was taken over by the muslims. 30 years ago Lebanon was a Christian democracy and now a hezbollah and muslim shithole. This is her website. She spoke on how only the Israelis came to their aid as the muslims slaughtered the Christian Lebanese and how even when she was in an Israeli hospital with her explosion-injured mother and there were a couple of muslim women in their hospital room as soon as the Israeli nurses were out of earshot they cursed them and wished them dead! She noted that the Israelis were kind, always helpful and caring, in contrary to the lies told to her and continued to be taught in mosques around the world.

http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/

How is that only these women like Gabriel and Hirsi Ali seem to have the courage to speak out. Where are the "moderate" muslims?

As she warned the propaganda arm of hamasss is working at full speed with the leftist MSM to destroy our freedom and way of life. When my leftist friends scoff at this I remind them, remember when Lebanon was referred to as the Venice of the middle East, I do, and it is not that long ago.

I see the same lefties marching with the muslims as they did with the USSR anti-bomb crowd during the cold war. Same shits, different day.

"I remind them, remember when Lebanon was referred to as the Venice of the middle East, I do, and it is not that long ago."
..........................

Perhaps it's because Beirut was known as 'The Paris of The Middle East'? ;-)

Thousands of people took to the street in Toronto yesterday to condem Israel's actions in Gaza. Far more signifigant, millions and millions DID NOT, having far more important things to do. Of particular signifigance, of the hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the GTA area, more than 90% of them didn't protest either.

Perhaps they, like myself, had far more pressing things to attend too. Personally, I used the occasion to take my dog for a long walk.

"new" is the kook who harassed Loblaws executives after they stopped using her firm as a supplier of Halal foods.

Financial Post story

She now seems to have tracked down Kathy and Kate, gun-totters both.

"Where are the "moderate" muslims?"

Dave,

I think of Muslims on a scale. At one end is moderation, at the other, fanaticism. (Which is a scary enough thought as it is).

How many degrees separate the two?

To answer that question, and despite the 70, or so sects, consider that they all share and recite exactly the same texts and are all commanded to emulate the same prophet.

This is unchanged and unchanging, as the Quran is the uncreated and unmitigated word of Allah.

That's precisely the reason why an apparently moderate Islamic couple can immigrate to the west and despite the advantages, still have a child that grows up to be a terrorist. As we've witnessed over and over again.

bob

"""" Personally, I used the occasion to take my dog for a long walk. """"""

I took my dog out for a sh......

Kate

I can do excellent broken english, and a perfect stutter, worked great when the judges need CONvincing that I are innocent:-)))))

The Hamasophiles understand one thing, if it bleeds it leads....which also applies to various rage boi's.

High emotion works on TV, looks good, sounds good and is "dramatic". The role of editors is supposed to place it in context but they dont do that, editors are really "producers" now. They have a different role, think of a film producer. The producer is supposed to generate ratings and money.

The demonstartions are predictable. I honestly don't care because other than seeing it as two countries having a long fight, there isnt much else there. Israel is responding to a threat, actual and potential. Nothing new here at all.

Hamas is trying a tactic, of violence to acheive their political goals. Problem is their stated goals mean perpetual battle. Till the Palestinian people decide that these tactics are no longer in their self interest then this will continue.

We cannot solve the problem for them, other than encourage the solution when the time is right. Till that time, as long as the "rules" are followed then here isnt much of interest to Canada, no need to change our curent position and cetrtainly no need for us to do anything other than we are. Maybe the hamasophiles will wake up one day to realize that in Canada they are shouting in a canon and by far the majority of Canadians don't care and shouldnt care.

The solution is pretty clear, most elements of Israeli society are just waiting for a reasonable negotiating partner, until that time they will remain a prickly porcupine. I would if I were them.

But never underestimate the ability of humans to blame someone else for their troubles to look for any excuse to not take responsibility for their own situation.

As much as I think the Israeli's have been their own worst enemy on some occasions (the infamous settlements) 90% of the time they have been more restrained than others would be.

The Palestinians, well, 90% of the time they are their own worst enemy....when you can tick off Bill clinton, which Arafat did, then you really have acheived something.

As bad as the Hillel and Muslim Students, Arab Student Association battles were in the 80's on campus, when I attended, they dont come close to the problems today. I worry about the crap that is tolerated on canadain campuses today and in 8 years when my daughter starts. Somehow I suspect the level of discourse will only get worse.

BTW, the Tigers...good riddance. I am sure the Liberal Party, particularly Jimmy K, will be upset at the loss of signicant under the table funding from this criminal organization. They are and were horrid. Why we turned a blind eye to them is beyond me.

Personally, I think the media overblows the protests. I mean, a few hundred protesters in Vancouver? A city of what, 2 million? That's less than 1/10 of one percent. I guess that means some 99.9% didn't protest. From the media's perspective that's fair and balanced.

Damn, Nemo2, I meant Paris as she had spoken in her talk but wrote Venice but the reality still exists as I had worked with several Lebanese years ago and remember how they described their beautiful city compared to what it is today.

Irwin Daisy, George Jonas wrote on this a couple of days ago noting that new immigrants will accept the conditions of their new country as they made a decision to leave the terrible conditions of their old one for a better life, i.e. Pakistan to the UK. If they don't assimilate and remain in a cultural ghetto their descendents wont accept this accomodation to the country's culture and attack it as we see happening all over Europe.

Brian Eno stands up for Hamas at terrorist rally in London:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWsv4-_UX4g

I don't think that there's any comparison between the Tamils and the Palestinians. The former were not promised a land of their own, as were the Palestinians.

And I don't think, any more, that Israel is interested in a two-state solution. Its continuing settlement of the West Bank precludes any Palestinian state. And its economic blockade of Gaza, which has destroyed its economy, sets it up for a takeover by some international Care Agency. As noted, Egypt doesn't want Gaza.

I also think that the Arab States accept the existence of Israel; they know perfectly well that it is there to stay. BUT, as I keep saying, the I-P situation is not the same as Islamic fascism, and what the Arab States and Iran want, is to use the I-P situation to deflect the vital reforms needed in their own countries. They MUST move into democracy out of tribalism and they don't want to do that.

So, they deflect population unrest internally to the I-P situation as causal of 'all internal problems'. No, the problems in the ME arab and Iranian states are internal to those states; they aren't caused by I-P.

Our friend 'new' is a woman? Good heavens, who'd have thunk it. As for the broken English, I maintain that she's fluent; her spelling and occasional lapses into good structure betray her; also, her 'deliberate' lack of structure means that she's putting it on. All languages have structure, and pretending not to have one doesn't work. She can pretend not to speak English, as noted above.

As for the comment that millions didn't protest, I really don't think that's a relevant point; that is, it doesn't show support for or against Israel or Palestine. Not all people are the type to go to rallies but they still have opinions on issues.

Where are the moderate Muslims? There are plenty around; some speak out (Salim Mansur, Tarek Fatah, Irshad Manji etc); others don't. But the moderate women Muslims spoke out, firmly, when the Islamic community was trying to get Sharia Law in Ontario. The Muslim women said: NO.

"Where are the "moderate" muslims?"

It's a rhetorical question. There aren't any.
Why? Because Islam is an extreme ideology.
If you are moderate, you aren't a Muslim.

How can anyone pretend an ideology that pronounces the death penalty for those who leave it is anything but extreme?

Jeeze Kate, these idiots call you on the phone? That's frickin' scary.

My apologies to new/etc. for mocking her command of English, its better than my French. However I continue to mock her obscene ideas and statements. When I'm not busy scrolling past them, of course.

Because why?

Any of y'all remember the vast outcry from the trolls, the MSM and the cognoscenti when the Lebanese Army shelled the living crap out of the PALESTINIAN REFUGEE CAMP in Lebanon? Me neither.

That's why.

That article on the "Axis of Idiots" is a must read.

ET, I know plenty of Muslims. They are all doctors. They uniformly LOATH the Wahabi scumbags who run Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

They don't say much because they might have to go home some day, or they have family back home. Tells me all I need to know about how things are back home. The word "Gestapo" springs to mind.

Which makes it all the more obscene that the MSM is busy supporting these Arab cretins against Israel and the USA.

GYM;

What would be particularly interesting to know would be how many people were in the Eaton's center at the time looking for some good after Christmas bargains. I'll bet there were more doing that than outside shaking their fists.

If I owe a debt of gratitude to Mike Harris for anything, it would be for opening my eyes one time when he was being asked by some breathless reporter about the 50 or so thousand "Days of Action" protestors trampling the grass at Queen's Park. His response was something to the effect that he represented the more than 10 million Ontarians who didn't show up to protest, and a couple of years later proved correct when he won a second crushing majority.

It took me 40 years to realize that what one doesn't see is every bit as important as what one does. Congratulation to you if you came to that conclusion quicker than I did.

Let's see if you folks can connect the dots:

Google: loblaws muslim halal

The CTV article follows a common pattern in the MSM -- note the highlighted word (emph. mine, obviously):

"...Israeli ground forces moved into Gaza -- following days of bombing and more than 400 Palestinian deaths. Israel SAYS the offensive is in response to rocket fire from Hamas militants."

It's impossible to believe that the writers at "ctvbc.ca" who authored the piece are unaware that a) Israel has been warning Hamas at length to stop firing rockets -- almost 7,000 in the last few years -- into civilian areas, and b) that if they don't, Israel will respond. To write that "Israel says" they are acting in response to non-stop rocket fire suggests that Israel's reasons for taking action are open to doubt.

CTV also continues the practice of magnifying the number of civilian deaths by referring to the dead as simply "Palestinians" -- "...following days of bombing and more than 400 Palestinians deaths." Much later, near the bottom of the article, they clarify a bit -- "The air strikes have killed more than 400 Palestinians, and 25 percent of them maybe have been civilians..."

Israel is NOT shooting people because they are Palestinian, and every honest person on earth who has any intelligence knows that. The grievance-propagandists are attempting -- quite successfully, with the complicity of much of the media, including CNN, CTV, etc -- to promote the view that when Israel responds to terrorists, they are targeting Palestinians. This sort of editorializing, mindfully based on entirely false premises, is transparently anti-Semitic at it's root, inasmuch as no other nation who responded to rocket attacks would be falsely accused of attacking another ethnic group. But there you have it: Israel finally responds to non-stop rocket attacks from militants, after enduring the attacks *far* longer than any similarly militarily-endowed nation on earth, and is then not-so-subtly accused of attacking an ethnicity, a beleaguered group of people, while the comprehensively stated, clearly-stated hatred of Jews on the part of the terrorist attackers is somehow a non-issue, and essentially non-existent; the issue, rather, is that Israel must not respond to bombardment by rockets.

If, say, the Indian government targeted, attacked and killed Islamist terrorists in the border region, who had hidden behind civilians, and the result was that some civilians were killed as well, the media in general wouldn't say something as inflammatorially vague as "the Indians killed 400 Pakistanis;" they would use clarifying terms, they would say something like "Indian forces launched an attack on"Pakistani militants..." etc., and then specify that civilians were killed as well. Israel, in comparison, it is constantly implied, is attacking Palestinians as a group, even though they're not.

In the falseness, the lies, the attempt by putatively progressive journalists and activists and analysts to hide their true motivations you can see the front line of anti-Semites who hide behind their carefully constructed wall of progressive propaganda.

Israel has a right to defend itself, and there's a very special place in hell for anyone who tries to bury this fact by appropriating the suffering of those Palestinians who don't support rocket attacks targeting Israeli civilians, or by dissolving the salient point in litanies of historic sociological/climatological detail -- "YES, the Coprolites are streaming over the hill to attack Benthamite families, BUT the Coprolites are using ash-wood pick axes, which are not as thick as they used to be. Ash-wood only grows in temperate climates, with high-PH soils, which the farming practices of the Benthamites have altered, so..."

Yeah, so what should the Benthamites do? After they're finished making pastries out of the blood of Coprolite babies, of course...

If Hamas hadn't been firing rockets non-stop into Israel for years, in violation of a ceasefire, Israel wouldn't be in Gaza. Period. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge this straight-up is LYING, and anyone who engages in the watch-the-hand tactic of appropriating the suffering on the innocent Palestinians who are being victimized by Hamas, and placing the blame on Israel, is worse yet: a mindful, practiced, dissembling propagandist liar who is hiding their own hatred. Full stop.

Let's see if you folks can connect the dots:

http://tinyurl.com/a7x7l3 (google Search)

ural - tried it. Doesn't give access. Now give us some dots we can actually connect to.

"Today, ‘good’ Americans question and are critical of a president and his government which is so out of touch and is so corrupt"

From "John Hagee" at the "Axis of Idiots" link.

I agree, all the taxpayers in all Countries should regard their government with a modicum of skepticism, blind faith in any leader only gets a Country into big trouble. I hope American people can remember that when the messiah takes the reins in a few days.

The seemingly endless posts by JH at the link make one feel he's just had a "three hour tour" of the local mental institution.

Oh, and I think it's safe to assume the anonymous poster-bot is not the Pastor of the Cornerstone Baptist Church in Texas.

Dave: I have heard of Basra, Iraq, (a place where I was 'detained' for a day in 1963, on suspicion of trying to smuggle someone OUT of the country), being called, (but not by many), 'The Venice of The Middle East'.

[/quote]No, Mr. President, you don’t get off the hook, either. Our country has two enemies: Those who want to destroy us from the outside and those who attempt it from within. Your Soldiers are dealing with the outside force. It’s your obligation to support them by confronting the AXIS OF IDIOTS. [/quote]

YES... or McCain’s failure to define himself or willing to fight the good fight against the Media agenda. Better to go-along then to stand on principles and maybe lose. The choise for the voters was Cold Grits Vs. Warm Grits

Or the Republicans in Congress that behave like shell-shocked munchkins not willing to step outside the status quo, set by the media.

ET writes, "Our friend 'new' is a woman? Good heavens, who'd have thunk it. As for the broken English, I maintain that she's fluent; her spelling and occasional lapses into good structure betray her; also, her 'deliberate' lack of structure means that she's putting it on. All languages have structure, and pretending not to have one doesn't work. She can pretend not to speak English, as noted above."

I altogether agree with ET’s assessment. I've taught many ESL students and “new’s” (et al’s) sheer number of discrete errors, which, BTW, show no discernible pattern—as ET points out, there appears to be a deliberate lack of structure—betrays this person. ESL English speakers and writers make errors, but, given a number of samples, the errors follow a pattern and are predictable. On the other hand, new’s English language “errors” are parallel to what one would see on a few canvases “painted” by chimps who were encouraged to splatter multi-coloured paint at random. new’s a fraud, IMO.

Re the IDF invading Gaza, with which I am in full solidarity—NO cease fire until the job is done—at “Quid sit”, Josh Miller writes, “My pro-Israeli stance has nothing to do with religion (as is the case for some Christians) and everything to do with good ‘ole fashioned common sense, coupled with a sense of justice.” Well, good for him. (And just where might this outlook have come? He thinks it sprang out of his own head, fully formed?)

For me, my Christian perspective has EVERYTHING to do “with good ‘ole fashioned common sense, coupled with a sense of justice.” (Reason and justice: Christian concepts via Jerusalem, Athens, and Rome, disseminated for centuries throughout the world.) Please note that the majority of leftists, who are the main supporters of the Muslims, are committed secularists. Of course, some secularists are on the side of Israel—but not very many.

Note, too, that anti-Israel Europe is also very anti-Christian: in over 70 000 words in their new constitution, not one word acknowledged their Christian heritage. As Europe has become more and more secularized—and collectivized and “Muslimized”—Israel has become more and more demonized and denounced. What about reason and justice: Christian concepts via Jerusalem, Athens, and Rome? They seem to be on the way out.

So, the Joshes of this world, IMO, shouldn’t be so eager to distance themselves from Christianity and Christians, as if that culture—JUDEO-Christian, BTW—wasn’t the seat of both reason and justice in a much more sane world than the one bequeathed to us by the secularists: Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, etc., who, among other atrocities, murdered hundreds of million of their own people.

As a Christian, I’m ashamed that the Christian churches are so silent re the defence of Israel. But what would one expect, as the churches of the West become more and more secularized?

When I’ve sung Parry’s “I Was Glad”, I've meant it!

Psalm 122. Laetatus sum

I WAS glad when they said unto me : We will go into the house of the Lord.
2. Our feet shall stand in thy gates : O Jerusalem.
3. Jerusalem is built as a city : that is at unity in itself.
4. For thither the tribes go up, even the tribes of the Lord : to testify unto Israel, to give thanks unto the Name of the Lord.
5. For there is the seat of judgement : even the seat of the house of David.
6. O pray for the peace of Jerusalem : they shall prosper that love thee.
7. Peace be within thy walls : and plenteousness within thy palaces.
8. For my brethren and companions' sakes : I will wish thee prosperity.
9. Yea, because of the house of the Lord our God : I will seek to do thee good.

To that I say, “Amen”. But, somehow, I don't think most of the secular West—or the murderous Muslim states—would be in agreement.

a different bob,

Google search was just a description ... just try:

http://tinyurl.com/a7x7l3

EBD, well said!

Barf Alert:

The vile, evil Canadian Press/MSM is a deadly propaganda mouthpiece for the Hamas perverts. MSM displays its anti-semitism.
Isn't "Canucks" so cute and coy? Is "Canucks" a Universal?
...-

"Canucks protest Gaza violence
By THE CANADIAN PRESS"

Ctv had a professor on today who clarified for us dimwitted viewers that Hamas is not a terrorist organization,but an organization that does some terrorist activities. See,not so bad after all,kind of like Ted Bundy was a charming fellow, he just had a few annoying habits.

first sepeate isreali and palestin for two years
completly no body travel to each others or interfer with each other for long period of time
that is only way to stop and reduce kill for both sides!
then let them to seat in table talk
---
i think
people protest in street is good sign
but not immidiet solution
solution is hand of force poltician to see this death seriously

it is real disturbing real bother pulic see or hear all death
when earthquick happend all people and world send the need and help to them for survival

when war start noboy care

only those protesting should not made disupt the inside each country
but also ask politican
to send army in region to stop war immidetly
in seize fird and isreal back to tehri land soon

other than that thos voice is like eco and
if politican leader do not act
it does not matter to change or
at least help those people

voice of public and protest in all country can made wake up sound
but not help today solution to that region

solution is
why all world let this continue
how they can help it stop and never happend again
how to dealiver peace in region
how to deliver long term seucirity in region
hwo to used outside party to back and help them

consequences of public protest is only
they can not handle see this get repeated

if you sep 11 was 3000 to 6000 dead
and USA had to put bomb in all muslim countries or put blam

now look ate least 300 die let stop

such tiny small region
look at map of Isreal
and look ate populatio of isreal and paletin

this is easy by force to do peace

isreal and palestine can not reach peace
they must get FORCE to do peace by internatioal army to help them no other way i can see those peopel can stop it

i can change my word
international force army can force isreal and paletin to get seperated and put their feet out of each other busienss first
relatioship of if they like to talk or seat over roudn table will come after when at least
2 years they are not kill each otehr by intention

when both has gun to kill how they excpet to talk peace taht is nonsense as i feel it
sepearte them completly and by criminal law order and order of international

for two years two countries isreal and paletine must ban in any talk any interfer in their walk to border or any relatioship until time by tehir sepertaion made them back to see if they can open their border to each otehr later again

that is my solution i may be wrong since i do not know army knowlege well i think it for good intention of both sides really

"I altogether agree with ET’s assessment. I've taught many ESL students"

Yeah, I'm still skeptical, although it's difficult to imagine a clever lady like Kate getting duped.
I've taught some ESL and there is usually some progress. There is, however, a third possibility - "new" is actually Stephane Dion.

I say let them be martyers every one. When you hide ammunition in schools, use children as human shields, put rockets in hospitals, strap bombs to your own kids or the retarded. There are no civilians. The real civilans left a long time ago.
JMO

Wonder how long it will be before these so called “moderate Muslim” peaceful demonstrations in Canada resemble the “disfranchised youth” demonstrations throughout Europe?

We need to clear these people out of our midst before they drag their pathetic problems into our backyards any more than they already have.

Honestly, very few real Canadians actually care about the mental issues in Palestine. Certainly not the other landed Canadian immigrants. How many Asian, Indian, sub Saharan African Canadians, do you hear commenting, blogging or protesting the issue (aside from Muslims of course)? It’s in reality a “white Christian” bleeding heart sentimentality that dredges out the arm chair quarterbacks to beat their keyboard keys in righteous indignation.

This is not our problem folks. But the Palestinians gaining momentum in our streets and parliament is!

Am I being selective in this bias? You damned rights I am. Israelis pose us NO threat; we have proof of this during the 60 years of their independence and over 1000 years of living within our communities. The Palestinians “Aka – Muslim front men martyrs for the faith” Have proven their ability to not be able to coexist peacefully with anyone. They indeed are the pawns of their faith, but as dangerous to our culture and society as an AIDS pandemic.

Until Muslims are prepared to denounce other Muslims who perpetrate savage acts, moderate Muslims don’t exist.

Show me a “moderate” Muslim. Please show me that I’m wrong. Find me a Muslim who will publically say that Bin Laden is a bad “person” albeit a Muslim. This is different than saying that BLs “actions” are deplorable.

There is an important distinction at the gut-level, and after all we are talking about gut-level values.

Better watch out, Knight 99 and glasnost.

ET will denounce you as haters for harbouring rational opinions.

Ben laden saudi arbi man is bad person period

his act to occupied afgani land while he is from
saudi arbi look for land to put wahabi ideas to get used
waht USA teached him war activities
with no favor for afgani benfeit

but also to used that war technic and use of isalm to kill more msuim
and made afgani act more dumber
by join him wiht talebin people

his ideogly of use reglin to do what you wish for as most rich background of bin ladne he was rich man and rich man always love to have more land to ooccupied cheap and freely

he did not open any eyes or help islam grow in consrucitve view
since he grow up with hand of american ideas not muslim really

i am saying ben laden is embrased me
to say he is good muslim
becuae he was bad person

so as i can say isreali poltician useing jewish relgion to kill is embrased all jewish in world too
becuae isreali poltiicna born by hand of American ideas and now isreal are left to alone fight and all blame to jewish relgion while it is not

so as ben ladne idea born by idea of amdeian who helped him in first place and left him when he need help to blame it to muslim relgion

Ben laden saudi arbi man is bad person period

his act to occupied afgani land while he is from
saudi arbi look for land to put wahabi ideas to get used
waht USA teached him war activities
with no favor for afgani benfeit

but also to used that war technic and use of isalm to kill more msuim
and made afgani act more dumber
by join him wiht talebin people

his ideogly of use reglin to do what you wish for as most rich background of bin ladne he was rich man and rich man always love to have more land to ooccupied cheap and freely

he did not open any eyes or help islam grow in consrucitve view
since he grow up with hand of american ideas not muslim really

i am saying ben laden is embrased me
to say he is good muslim
becuae he was bad person

so as i can say isreali poltician useing jewish relgion to kill is embrased all jewish in world too
becuae isreali poltiicna born by hand of American ideas and now isreal are left to alone fight and all blame to jewish relgion while it is not

so as ben ladne idea born by idea of amdeian who helped him in first place and left him when he need help to blame it to muslim relgion

http://www.theage.com.au/world/cia-tracking-4000-uk-terror-suspects-20090104-79u6.html

CIA tracking 4000 UK terror suspects

Quote: "A former CIA officer who still carries out freelance work for the agency voiced the irritation of some American spies. "It's certainly frustrating that Britain is an Islamist swamp," he said."

A pissin' contest with a skunk is still a pissin' contest with a skunk even if it is a female.

new ~ "Ben laden saudi arbi man is bad person period"

That's a great start [new]. What are you prepared to do to convince other Muslims that they must denounce the people (Muslims), who are proposing violence as a solution to their problems.

when you defend yourself is differenc than act of violance
being police for your region and
protect the border for palestine
is not terrorist activites either

the word and act are different

you are telling me if any muslim in world
take gun to protect their right
or push nonmuslim away to not harm them
are terrorist of barbarian and not civlized

while we do not see all nonmuslim are infedal as you call yourself

how news lable muslim in defend thier right
when isreal cut their fuel and l et to die
in winter or not eat to live in poverty
that made them to stand for their right

taht is defence sometimes
not violance

you can ask that stupid israli politican i just finish watching his news half an hour agao
thta said

all paletinan must ceae and decease weapen before they give or accept any offer

sound may be very smart while
they are the one who occupited oslo 1993 and
cut their water man

what isreali said of cease and decease andlive to die or we kill you not sound reasonable to me too

in fact so or too stupid for me to hear it while i have not interst to take side i just see not sound logic at all

it is like you take one free man in city of canada and put glue in their mouth and put them in room with no water and said do not do any thing to come out of it cease and decease is order from law and judge who has not conflict of interst in region

when USA nato the isreal benefit
USA judge can not order any thing any more toward Israli since the documetn proof they had conflict of itnerest with region not to take beneit of jeish or muslim in the region

you order the law by right person not carry it

even if you think i may not smart to say that above look at other voices
plus that is not me to say it this is all
world who said today
evern tony blair in Isreal today i heard to force some more policial activieies

there is very simple solution to that crisis very simle solution need guts to do that law only

Well, there's one troll heard from. Now where's ulianov with his spewage?

Hey new, how's the meat business?

“New” –

Is obviously spamming SDA with the same nonsensical rhetoric over and over with long repetitive threads. This is obviously a conscious ploy to disrupt conservative debate on sensitive subjects and derail them. This is not meant to convince the actual comment participants of any opinion change, but to make the threads unreadable or hard to follow by drop in readers……………

glasnost - try salim mansur. He's a Muslim, writes for the Toronto Sun; he's a professor of political science at UWO. How do I know he's moderate? Read his columns. Oh, and he and I have met and talked several times over coffee.

What about Tarek Fatah - he denounces the radicals quite openly.

Irshad Manji; Aayan Hirsi Ali.

Google their names and you'll find out more. there are others of course; I won't give their names, but the ones I've mentioned are often making public statements.

Try the blog: Muslims against sharia. There's an article by Farid Ghadry (Reform party of syria) on why Hamas must be destroyed.

The president of Muslims against Sharia is Khalim Massoud (see Front Page dot com). There's an interesting inteview with Massoud in FrontPageMag dot com, Nov 13, 2007, called 'Muslims Against Sharia'. Google it and you'll find it quite informative. For example, he says:

"Islam in its present form is incompatible with modern society, that's why it needs to be reformed. The first step is to abandon the doctrine of Islamic supremacy and remove passages from religious texts that could be interpreted (or misinterpreted) as calls to violence. We believe it is possible. Muslims, just as all other people, are human beings. If Christians could abandon the Inquisition, Muslims can abandon Jihad. Taking violence out of Islam is not the same as taking Islam out of Islam. It is a historical fact that major religions like Christianity and Judaism have undergone reformations on more than one occasion. Islamic reformation is no different. "

There are others writing in academic journals writing on specific actions of interpretation and openly declaring that the texts are, and must be, open to interpretive change and reform, to make Islam compatible with modern society.

I hope this information can be of use to you.

ET, thank you for pointing me to Muslims who are apparently willing to break the code and become "moderate Muslims". I look forward to investigating the links you provided.

What has really grabbed my attention today however, is the reaction of the SDA poster "new" who seems to have risen to a challenge to denounce Muslims who do bad things. This, of course, assumes that "new" is actually a Muslim.

Stop feeding the trolls. That means, do not respond at all.

Thank you.

Moderate Muslims? Government counter-terrorist dhimmis?

Try this no-nonsense piece by Bill Warner at Political Islam: Refuting Counter-Terrorism Dhimmitude

Irshad Manji a "moderate Muslima"?

Islam means submission. A Muslim is One Who Submits. Irshad Manji does not submit.

Kudos to Irshad Manji for trying to destroy Islam, though.

When has Salim Mansur ever renounced the passages of the Koran that practicing Muslims like Osama bin Laden use to justify Jihad and acts of terror against the Kafir?
Never.

ET,

"There's an interesting inteview with Massoud in FrontPageMag dot com, Nov 13, 2007, called 'Muslims Against Sharia'. Google it and you'll find it quite informative. For example, he says:"

"Islam in its present form is incompatible with modern society"

- ET (posted later on this thread)

"You (irwin daisy) reject any and all Muslim immigration which sets up a clear judgment that you view ALL Muslims as unfit to live within a democratic society."

- ET (earlier on another thread)

It's good you've finally come around to reading 'Muslims against Sharia' which I suggested you read about a year and a half ago. However, ET, your posts are quite revealing, wouldn't you say?

Perhaps your rigid and narrow view may be opening up? Maybe you might become open to actual debate based on the facts?

On the other hand, you could be slipping into hypocrisy on top of your prejudice.

We'll see. A change in approach would be nice and informative for all involved. No shrillness needed, or falsifying what people actually say.

This has not been happening in a petrie dish, observed from the 30,000 foot level. The Islamic ideology has been rudely interrupting peoples lives.

In 270,000,000 cases, snuffing them out. Now it is within our borders.

I give those Muslims who are actively attempting to reform Islam, respect and support. However, there are far too few of them. And what they are largely saying is to get rid of Mohammad, the Hadiths and much of the Quran. Which I don't think is going to happen. And which is the key difference vis a vis Christian reform.

I agree with Kate. In some cultures it's called "shunning." It works.

I-P : solution for both parties
STOP acting barbarian

civilized -- Shunning!!
...

civilize

to bring out of a savage, uneducated, or rude state; make civil; elevate in social and private life; enlighten; refine: Rome civilized the barbarians.

civ⋅i⋅lized 

–adjective 1. having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc.
2. polite; well-bred; refined.
3. of or pertaining to civilized people: The civilized world must fight ignorance.
4. easy to manage or control; well organized or ordered: The car is quiet and civilized, even in sharp turns.

...

Shunning

Shunning means those whom we used to call brothers and sisters we would now pass in the market or street without acknowledging.

shun means expel from a community or group; ostracize; ostracise; cast out; blackball
...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning
Purposes
Shunning can be broken down into behaviours and practices that seek to accomplish either or both of two primary goals.

To modify the behaviour of a member. This approach seeks to influence, encourage, or coerce normative behaviours from members, and may seek to dissuade, provide disincentives for, or to compel avoidance of certain behaviours. Shunning may include disassociating the member by other members of the community who are in good standing. It may include more antagonistic psychological behaviours (described below). This approach may be seen as either corrective or punitive (or both) by the group membership or leadership, and may also be intended as a deterrent.

To remove or limit the influence of a member (or former member) over other members in a community. This approach may seek to isolate, to discredit, or otherwise dis-empower such a member, often in the context of actions or positions advocated by that member. For groups with defined membership criteria, especially based on key behaviours or ideological precepts, this approach may be seen as limiting damage to the community or its leadership. This is often paired with some form of excommunication.

Some less often practiced variants may seek to:

Remove a specific member from general external influence to provide an ideological or psychological buffer against external views or behaviour. The amount can vary from severing ties to opponents of the group up to and including severing all non-group-affiliated intercourse.
Shunning is usually approved of (if sometimes with regret) by the group engaging in the shunning, and usually highly disapproved of by the target of the shunning, resulting in a polarization of views. Those subject to the practice respond differently, usually depending both on the circumstances of the event, and the nature of the practices being applied. Extreme forms of shunning have damaged some individuals' psychological and relational health. Extreme responses to the practice have developed, mostly around anti-shunning advocacy; such advocates highlight the detrimental effects of many of such behaviors, and seek to limit the practice through pressure or law. Such groups often operate supportive organizations or institutions to help victims of shunning to recover from damaging effects, and sometimes to attack the organizations practicing shunning, as a part of their advocacy.

...

Shunning:
”A Part of the Faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses”
(Watchtower 4/15/88, p. 29)

by Gary Busselman

shun - to keep away from; avoid scrupulously or consistently.
(Webster’s New World Dictionary)

- to keep clear of; avoid. (Funk and Wagnalls Standard Desk Dictionary)

Why It Works

Why would I be afraid of someone who threatened not to talk to me unless I behaved a certain way? Why would I punish someone by not talking to them? Why would people try and try to gain the acceptance of a group who would look right through them without speaking or even acknowledge them when they chance met? What are the rewards for the shunners? What are the rewards for the shunned?

Why the threat of shunning helped to keep me “in line” is clearer to me today. I believe that very night we “freed” the woman with the broken car, but we further enslaved ourselves to the Watchtower. For two reasons:

(1) We reinforced each other by participating in a crime. In order for me to accept my own (truly un-Christian) behavior I had to approve, reinforce, accept, and condone the behavior of all the other members of the group. Shunning gave me the illusion of power. The illusion of power to a powerless person is a drug.

(2) The group members modeled for me what they were willing to do in keeping the commands of the WT. For a moment I put myself in that woman’s place, and I knew I didn’t want to be there. Raised by Witness parents and indoctrinated by the WT since age seven, all my real security was tied up with a Watchtower ribbon. The thought of leaving the group was unthinkable.

Shunning means those whom we used to call brothers and sisters we would now pass in the market or street without acknowledging. I was on spiritual high ground (a sort of religious “high”). While alone I was less bold when a shunning opportunity would arise, If it was a private situation, however, I might feel somewhat uncomfortable and maybe even make eye contact and nod.

shunning can be used for abuse..
Real or threatened, physical, mental, emotional, and verbal abuse is their power over members and often former members. Fear, guilt, shame, hatred, and later resentment and anger kept me with them selling Watchtowers on dirty street corners next to the bums, and from house to house.

Shunning is probably the ultimate rejection of me as a person and maybe the cruelest mental, emotional, and psychological form of abuse. The results of the shunning by Jehovah’s Witnesses done to me was substantial pain and suffering … but only as long as lowed it to continue.

Shunning is a Drug...
...and drug users need enablers. I've noticed a few things about abusers of people and things. A person who abuses other humans does it for a reason. It is the same as any addiction to a substance or behavior. The addict gets something out of it, a "reward." I have done research on the subject of addiction and have reached some interesting conclusions.

Addicts need a drug , abusers need a victim. Shunners are playing a mind game and they need a playmate who will follow the rules. Shunning is their drug. Abusers need help to carry out their abuse. They need enablers (victims). Without their victims they can not continue to abuse. Watchtower rules for shunning must be followed by both shunner and VICTIM or shunning doesn't work! Shunning is a show. To best work it needs an arena to be played in, and an audience.

Recognizing My Responsibility
I have a duty to myself, who I love, and to my many loved ones and real friends to protect myself and them from abuse and abusers.

We are obligated to protect ourselves, even from parents. There is a limit on the extent to which we honor or obey them. To honor means to provide food, clothing, and shelter to them if asked, to avoid reprimands, be civil in conversation, and accommodate parents in requests made. To honor parents does not mean to make myself a target for their abuse of any kind. Emotional abuse hurts just as bad as physical abuse even though the scars are not on the outside.

http://www.freeminds.org/buss/shunning.htm