Scary.

(It's spelled 'Yonge,' by the way. Trips me up sometimes too.)

I wonder if Pierre's ghost attended the rally?
On a serious note , we should not forget that the People in Gaza are resonsible for this mess. They chose and elected Hamas and they continue
to support these thugs.
Even those who support Israel sometimes forget that it's the average Palestian who is responsible.
I sometimes wish our Immigration criteria had one founding rule: If you want to bring your hatreds with you...Don't come to Canada!

What are the champions of human rights, secularism, responsible free speech doing today...well they're marching with terrorists and their supporters, lending support to terrorists shouting "Allah Akbar! and 'death to Israel' etc. etc. The new inverted Canada.

Hey, look at that AK-47 of God on the flag.

From yesterday's Jerusalem Post:

"Another Fatah official said it was "ironic and sad" that people were demonstrating in Tokyo and London against the Israeli offensive while the PA was trying to halt such protests out of fear that they would turn into pro-Hamas rallies. "

Ironic indeed.

Fatah and Egypt are siding with Israel against Hamas. This is a stunning development, a news definitely worth printing. But it won't be. That's beyond ironic.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733139092&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://backspin.typepad.com/backspin/2009/01/5-snippets-you-might-have-missed.html

Palestinians sure are hard to figure out. First they claim that they want to be martyrs, that there is no greater glory. Next, after provoking a response by shooting missiles across the border, they get p*ssed off when Israel responds by dropping bombs on them. Some people you just can't make happy no matter what you do.

We have an islamic 5'th column right here in Canada.
One would think that Iran's agents in Canada are running the show in regards to the demos here and elsewhere. No person in their right mind could actually support these thugs, Hamass. unless of course you are doing the bidding for the mother ship of terrorism, which happens to be Iran, or you could be a brain dead anti-semite. Well actually both.

These animals should be sprayed with bacon grease.

This is what we tolerate? Now wonder the Americans think we're nobs.

Just ignore it. In a few years they will be doing it again. And again. And again. Just a endless tape with same crap...different year.

Why do we tolerate this and why are they not deported? Two excellent questions and I would add a third one. How many were born here? A famous Brit (not to-day's UK) who was born in Ireland was once asked how he could be British and not Irish replied that being born in a stable did not make one a horse.

So just exactly what do these people contribute to Canada other than the most vile form of hatred?

Sure looks like Trudopia to me.

Right on Alain. And how difficult would it have been to screen these fascists or their parents on entry to Canada? A half trained immigration official might have missed one or two but we seem to have a real problem building for the near future.
Entire cultures of thousands who consider us to be just convenient dupes or worse. An American social scientist some years ago attributed the much higher US crime rate as caused by a counter culture of people who were schooled by the Civil Rights Movement. I think we will all live to see his Theseus proved.

Are these flags not of a banned (and illegal ..) terrorist organization?

Should these flags not be confiscated at the very least by police, or the demonstrators charged?

Alain; the actual selection and screening of immigrants (to Canada) is done by locals hired in whatever country is under discussion. To a career bureaucrat that seems to make sense, I guess...

Welcome to Turdopia Multikulturalism.

Any person holding up a flag with an AK-47 on it is not a Canadian. He/She is certainly not welcome in my Canada.

I'm fed up with the Cult of Tolerance, and the Cult of Multikulteralism. You are Canadian, period. If not, f8ck off, and go back to Fecesistan where apparently you'd prefer to be. F*cking ingrates.

Looks like they're getting ready for martyrdom. Thank God for the Gun Control Registry.

Here's a neat picture currently on the CBC website (until they realize what it really reveals, that is.) Looks like there might have been a problem with a gas hot water heater in that building.

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2009/01/03/gaza-bomb-cp-6039006.jpg

No peace before victory

every day we get a little closer to violence in our streets. i have said it before and will say it again, islam is evil and those who follow it do not want peace except on islamic terms. ie. the death of all jews, christians etc.

Israel, here's how to do it;

Take over all the mosques and schools that they use to teach their children this poison, then wait thirty or forty years, until the present generation is too old for rocket-launching duty.

I expect the CBC will start another TV comedy to appease the pro-Hamas population of Muslims in canada since LMOTP was such a hit after 9/11 when 24 canadians were slaughtered by 19 Muslims.

The show could be called....

Corner Gaza

A peacful town out west has a business run by Palestinians that funnel profits back to Hamas and Hezballah , but locals haven't caught on to the families bent for collecting RPG's and Suicide vests.

Thanks to out Refugee System these thugs and Islamists also get free health care and welfare checks if they go to school , maybe that's why some have covered their faces because they told Officials they fled the Middle east to live in Peace in canada.
This is what maher Arar told the Media and they bought it , the CBC didn't care that Arar applied for a gun permit, or that he left his wife and kids to live in the USA near the Boston Airport
where the 9/11 hijackers got some planes , nor did they report that the RCMP found data Discs and Hard drives hidden in walls and the attic of his house.
His wife is palestinian and Pro-Sharia law that's why we don't see her ever working outside the Home , the Arar's fled canada for Tunisia to live to her relatives until the local Police starting watching them because of her relatives ties to the Muslim Brotherhood .
That was when Arar again abandoned his family and caught a Plane to get out and go to the USA , he was refused entry as a single male travelling by himself with a canadian passport as a Syrian.
Tunisia refused to take him back for fear the Arar's would demand asylum and go on welfare , it was only JORDAN that agreed to take him in and then Ararbs kidnapped him and Allegedly harmed him befor taking him to Syria for a Military trial as a draft-Dodger .

We were played for suckers folks, the Arar's got $10 million dollars in exchange for dropping their $400 million Law suit agaisnt us tax payers.
Arar never testified , nor gave one piece of evidence to prove he was tortured in Syria after he left Jordan.
It's all in the Inquiry documents and the O'Connor report that the MSM is ignoring or too stupid to do research on the facts about Arar.

Deja vu...

How predictable.

Every time Israel defends herself against the hateful Jew-killers of "Palestine", these scumbags are all over the Toronto streets with their illegal terrorist flags and their hate-propaganda picket signs (don't expect Special K and the Warman to go after these special folks, though- they ain't white, so they can spew hate all they want). But when "Palestine" is attacking Israel and Israel isn't retaliating, where the hell are these people? Think about that. Duh!

Pro-"Palestinian"/anti-Israel demonstrators are haters, period. They lie. They claim to stand up for human rights, but that's a lie.

Why did the Hamas supporters have face coverings at the protest while the Israeli supporters didn't cover their faces?

Answer: The cold Toronto wind was blowing onto the faces of Hamas supporters. The wind was blowing onto the backs of Israeli supporters--face coverings weren't needed. It's allahmentary science.

This is the price we must be willing to pay to ensure free speech in this country (not that we have free speech as Ezra, Kate and the other Bloggers who have faced lawsuits and/or human rights complaints can attest). I might not agree with their message but they should have the right to express their POV.

"Why did the Hamas supporters have face coverings at the protest while the Israeli supporters didn't cover their faces?"

Maybe the Hamas supporters are ugly and were embarrassed to possibly see themselves on TV.

Oh, wait...

Saw clps of protests all around the world, including in Israel itself. Yes, that's Jewish Israelis protesting their own gov't, demanding it be stopped.

I wonder, if you're a Palestinian living in Gaza and blame Hamas, can you take to the streets to protest against them.... or would you be shot to death on the spot, or taken away never to be seen again? Just further proof that there's no moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas.

Oh, and it's funny that we have MSM attacking the Israeli gov't, demanding they be allowed to follow the IDF around inside Gaza to report specidfic locations to Hamas... this is the same MSM that explains/rationalizes to its viewers that its reporters have to be blindfolded by Hamas terrorists (oops, strike that, I meant "militants") en route to the rocket-making factories... you see, if they weren't blindfolded, well, Israel could map the route with the footage provided, and if you're MSM you don't want to do that.

I have always wondered at this curious alliance between militant islamists and our liberal lefties. What would make those dim bulb libs get in bed with racists, women haters and religous fanatics? At first glance they are nothing alike.

Upon closer inspection though, our fig farming goat feltching palestinkian terrorist friends are much like our liberals in other regards:

1. they will happily yodel and howl about their own rights while denying others theirs

2. they will cheerfully bypass the democratic majority to achieve their ends and fall back on it when their aims coincide

3. when it is time to defend their rights, these bungholes would rather have others do their fighting for them - they will offer moral support by waving placards and burning flags.

4. their personal hygienic habits are similiar too. Dirty, smelly hippies abound in Tranna

Rather than bacon grease, I would rather see that crowd sprayed with napalm. To hell with the lot of them.

I was told David Miller and his flock got rid of all the gun clubs in Toronto. I guess they missed one.

And where are the brownshirts of the CHRC ?

As I'm looking at the Muslim protest a question comes to my mind....... Is it possible for Israeli F-18's to fly this far......? Naw.... too bad though.

It may not make sense to anyone with common sense but apparently it's OK to fire rockets into Israel and expect Israel to ignore them. That's a prime example of the Lefty brain at work.

The media gives the Hamas supporters holed up in the safety of this country more coverage than they gave our anti-coalition crowds.

Thanks to Trudeau's Charter those Bastards with face masks on our Parliament Hill and elsewhere have all the rights they could never dream of where they sprung from. How many are true Canadian citizens? If they were pooped out here they certainly are not protesting according to Canadian values, they're protesting in extreme hatred for the Jewish people. As Canadians we support the right of any country to defend herself.

If we don't stem the flow of immigrants with agendas spawned by old hatreds we're going to be having more than demonstrations in our streets.

It appears Australia gets it. They're not going to allow any Gitmo detainees back into their country. Of course the Leftoids in this country can hardly wait to get the Khadr spawn back "home" to the arms of his terrorist supporting family.

Thanks Liz, corrected.

I am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Gaza part of Egypt before the 1967 war? If that is the case it has never been Palestine and the Israelis should give it back to Egypt and let them deal with it.

Sounder: "The new inverted Canada."

In a nutshell.

I can tell you that if 80% of Canadians went to Christian churches and synagogues on a regular basis and 20% didn't, as was the case just a scant 50 years ago, we wouldn't have many of the lib-left policies we have today or the disgusting scenes of Hamas flags proudly waving at the corner of Yonge and Dundas Streets in one of Canada's largest cities.

Today, we have 20% of Canadians going to Christian churches and synagogues and 80% not. 'Talk about inverted Canada: Can we say that this flip in our habits has benefited Canada and Canadians' freedoms?

If we are EVER to come to terms with what has happened in our country, re the inversion of democratic values, we have to come to terms with our national belittling of the faith of our fathers and mothers, the faith that nurtured and ensured the democratic freedoms Canadians have enjoyed up to this point.

For the past 40 years, in both government and our public institutions of "education" (let's call it re-education) Canadians have been discouraged from either acknowledging, let alone supporting, Judeo-Christian beliefs and values. We have been told to dump them, while at the same time, under the banner of multiculturalism, to glorify all other cultures and faiths. Christians (less so Jews) have been ridiculed and criticized when we express our faith in the public square and have been told, in no uncertain terms, to shut up and go to the back of the multi-culti bus.

A few people get it. But a whole lot more Canadians need to get -- and start speaking up about it -- before there can be any expectation of a change for the better in multi-culti, anti-Judeo-Christian, Canada.

'Ever wonder why the left supports Hamas? In part, because they're against both Jews and Christians whom the left see as sworn enemies. And, in many ways we are. We don't buy their social engineering schemes for the world and have often been quite vocal about it -- even though very few seem to be listening ...

I respect anyone's right to free expression in Canada and that includes peaceful demonstrations but I'm more than a little pi--sed to see a couple of Canadian flags flying in that protest scene. Its an insult to my country's strongest symbol.

As Hamas was the duly elected "government" of Gaza and the Palestinians, then the resumption of rocket bombardments was an act of war, not terrorism. Israel has every legitimate right to take the war as far into Gaza as necessary to end the aggression against it permanently. Those barking at the UN and in Toronto and elsewhere, need to understand that if they recognize the legitimacy of Palestine, they have to recognize that the state of Palestine has initiated a state of war against Israel, not terrorism. Be careful what you wish for when you elect a government...

Roger

there's a wealth of information available about the kennedy assassinations, never touched by the msm, it's very damning

a different bob

that'd be 15 & 16's, kanada flies those paper pussy planes, 18's:-))))

minuteman

yup, that's correct, and the west bank was Jordan, just repatriate the people and keep the land

BTW: When I talk about "we" Christians, I'm not talking about the official hierarchies of most of Canada's mainline Christian churches.

For some reason--isn't this how you get to be part of hierarchical officialdom?--they've been very good at playing dead while saying "hit me again" when it comes to Christians being belittled, ignored, persecuted, punished, and shut up in the public square. And all too often, they're the ones encouraging Canada's policy of "multiculturalism," even though Canada's policy is actually a beard to cover up Canada's lib-left anti-Judeo-Christian sentiments.

Enough is enough.

"free to express opinions in Canada"

Quite right. But as a sovereign, Canada has every right to allow into this country whoever it wishes.

It follows that it has the right to not allow large groups of people who espouse a cult of death, a perverted form of religion which praises killers, manifests martyrs, treats women like cattle, believes certain groups in our world are so inferior they are ripe for extermination, condones and encourages honour killings and attempts to advocate all of these things as acceptable in Canada in the form of Sharia law.

Rights work both ways.

Those who attempt to manipulate the "I have my rights" mentality usually tend to forget that.

Multiculturalism as a policy within our Constitution, bucked up by Trudeau's Charter could eventually take us to a place we never imagined. It's one of our main attractions for immigrants from some of the most unstable places in the world.

In this democracy, before Trudeau's tinkering, we were governed by the rule of law and had equal rights as law abiding citizens. God and Christianity were not bad words either. We could celebrate Christmas and recite the Lord's Prayer in public schools and council chambers etc without objection.

Now we have to go underground so we won't offend some minority or other. Bear in mind those minority are growing and demanding more for their beliefs knowing they will get anything they ask for under Charter rights.

Well-said, biff. And just a reminder to those who have forgotten: When Christians demonstrated in front of abortion clinics, peacefully by the way, praying, singing, and walking, they were accosted by police and the judiciary banned them from being anywhere near a clinic.

Linda Gibbons is in prison, again. Does anyone care?

One of the great ironies of this is that one of the main reasons Canada has had to allow so many immigrants into our country is that we have aborted roughly 2.5 million CANADIAN babies.

Think about it.

I totally concur with batb. When a country—a civilization, The West—severs its own roots, it's not going to survive. Add in the fact that the darkness is falling and the wolves are circling.

We're watching the suicide of our once strong and free culture. A vacuum will always be filled: look at the pictures of the anti-Israel mobs and be very afraid. 'Ashamed too: remember, this is suicide. As batb has pointed out, we have chosen to turn our backs on our Judeo-Christian foundation and the free culture it allowed. We ignore its annihilation at our immense peril.

I am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Gaza part of Egypt before the 1967 war? If that is the case it has never been Palestine and the Israelis should give it back to Egypt and let them deal with it.

Posted by: minuteman
..................................

Egypt doesn't want them.

Isn't that surprising. Wow, who'da thunk it?

Who is the Jew-hating Liberal activist and why is Warren Kinsella protecting him?

"'Ever wonder why the left supports Hamas? In part, because they're against both Jews and Christians whom the left see as sworn enemies."

batb, so true unfortunately.

I am reading What's so great about Christianity by Dinesh D'Souza (a Chanukah present to myself)- it clearly covers the facts of how Western civilization is biblically based. JudeoChristian values/morals hinder the agenda of the left and so they team up with the enemies of Christians and Jews.

If you throw up your hands and say a pox on both their houses, if you cannot pick a side in this battle, your side will be picked for you

You want these hamas terrorist supporters, with their faces covered, out there protesting on our streets. It is a guarantee the liberals will never regain power in our country. I have talked to many who cannot bring themselves to vote liberal because of the fact they see the liberals as terrorist supporters.

Isn't that fat dennis codderre standing at the back?

denis coderre !

"I might not agree with their message but they should have the right to express their POV."

A Muslimah, caught on tape, shouting "Back to the ovens" in FT. Lauderdale.

A Muslim threatening a counter-protester in San Francisco with, "I'll shoot you between the eyes."

Machine guns on a banned terrorist group's flags in Toronto.

No, they have no right in our lands to express this type of vile hatred and death threats to non-Muslims. It's against the law.

It appears that it's getting to the point that if the government doesn't enforce the law against these thugs, it becomes incumbent upon the citizens to do so.

It's time the majority of Canadians made it very clear to all elected representatives that we do not want these vile, filthy haters here. We want an end to Muslim immigration and we want the ring leaders, protesters, militant imams, honour killers and their families and friends deported, post haste.

batb,

True enough about the lefts support of Islamic terrorist organizations. However, the Jews and Christians have the option of becoming dhimmis in Muslim lands. Atheists and polytheists do not. It's conversion or death.

But then, why let a little problem like your own murder get in the way of righteous hate?

minuteman - from the 16th c to 1948, the area was ruled by the Ottoman Empire; then it passed to Egypt until 67; then Israel to 94, and then Palestine. The area was part of the UN 1948 area set aside for a potential Palestinian state.

Yes, the Palestinians elected the Hamas, not for their terrorism, but because of the corruption of Arafat's Fatah party; Hamas had essentially taken over social care and services while Fatah was focusing on enriching its leaders. What has happened now is that Hamas has taken control of Gaza, and Fatah has moved to the West Bank - and Hamas has focused only on terrorism. But a key problem is that when Hamas won the election, Israel closed the Gaza borders, effectively destroying its economic viability (Gaza must export or it has no income).

Yes, a major problem in Canada - and Europe - is the policy of multiculturalism, and it's in our Charter as privilaged and indeed dominant. Effectively it sets up a situation where you can't evaluate the behaviour and beliefs of an ideology. That's an incredible restruction. This multicultural clause says that ALL beliefs and ALL behaviour, if operating within a 'culture' are closed to judgment, evaluation and are, furthermore, protected.

Clause 15, equality rights, declares that every individual is equal before the law..without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability. OK. As long as we are clear what the term 'discrimination' means in actual practice.

BUT then...this same section has a second part, which says that 'subsection 1 does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including...[all of the above]. What does this mean? It means that a program can privilege someone defined as 'disadvantaged' and upset the insistence that we are all 'equal before the law'.

This clause says that we aren't equal. And there's clause 27, which says that the Charter 'shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with the preservation and enhancement of the multicultural heritage of Canadians'. I have no idea what this means, other than under it, I could claim a right to behave in such and such a manner...because of my 'heritage'. So, if I want to have four wives...this clause ought to protect and enable me to do so.

And, we have our Human Rights Commission and Section 13, which prevents us from criticizing and judging the beliefs and behaviour of other cultures. Now - why shouldn't we critique and judge this behaviour? After all, it's man-made behaviour; it was developed by man and can be changed by man. But multiculturalism in the Charter and our Human rights sets up ALL beliefs and Behaviour, if operating within a DEFINED GROUP - as immune to anlysis, questions, evaluation, judgment. Incredible.

The Australians do indeed have it right. Since Oc tober 15, 2007, they have an Australian Values Statement, for all visas. The applicant must read a Life-in-Australia booklet, and sign the statement that states that they will respect the Australian way of life and obey the laws of Austrlia. This statement declares that:

Australian society values respect for the...freedom of the individual, rule of law, parliamentary democracy, equality of men an dwomen...mutual respect, tolerance, fair play, equal opportunity. And the English language..and that if they apply for Australian citizenship, it is a 'common bond'..which involves rights and responsibilities.

What has Ausralia done? It has made a values judgment. It has declared that its values are primary in this land. It hasn't declared, as has Canada, that 'all beliefs and behaviour' are equal, and if you are a minority then your beliefs and behaviour are protected'. No, Australia has made it clear - it has evaluated its identity and selected what is important and non-negotiable. If you want to come to Australia, you accept these values as primary.

This is quite the document - and I wish, strongly, that we would do the same here in Canada. It would be a vital and important change to strengthen our identity and purpose.

Really sad and shocking...I admire Girl on the Right for attending...I wanted to show support but couldn't bare to put myself near the insane screaming mobs that support terrorists. Too painful to see it in the heart of our cities...the masses of support these irrational lunatics that have no regard for the principles of democracy and freedom who are able to gain the support of most of the media in this country as well as the support of large groups of people who ignore the aggression of hamas and paint the israelis as the bad guys.
I wear a large Israeli blue scarf around my shoulders around Toronto, no flag, now symbols, but even still, the color triggers their rage. Islamic looking individuals spit out their car windows...some people warn me not to wear it over my shoulder as a display...no stones thrown, but that has happened during ramadamed,and the many, many pasty faced vegan type torontonians with their pali-scarf wrapped necks make sure to curl up their thin beady lips in disgust as I walk by.
My only consolation is reading weasel zippers thrice a day......with a heavy topping of the nose on your face.

batb: The trouble with your 80% / 20% ratios is that it so much depends on what message the Church is spreading at the time of attendance. Back when 80% of the people went to Church the Church the church the people attended was preaching Socialism. People didn't go to Church to be sanctified they went to Church to get their weekly dose of White Guilt. I don't think we should blame the people for abandoning the Church I think we should blame the Church for going off message.

Joe:

Your background must be either United or Anglican.

My church has never preached socialism and I'm about to go attend right now.

no, irwin daisy, your universal condemnation of ALL Muslims as 'evil' is something that I hope we don't accept in Canada.

I know a lot of Muslim people and none of them fit your stereotype. Ever heard of Salim Mansur, the columnist at the Sun? Tarek Fatah? There's lots of others who openly reject Islamic fascism. Your insistence that ALL Muslims are fascists is an act of blind hatred similar to that of which you accuse the Islamic fascists.

There are people of the Jewish religion who will make, like you, the same vicious condemnation of Muslims as 'all evil'. And plenty who do not, and who have friends who are Muslim.

Universals are never reasonable; they are always blind. I think that the Australian solution is an excellent strategy, for it clearly makes a reasoned judgment. It says that 'our Australian values as we have developed them, are accepted as the non-negotiable values of our country. If you want to come to Australia, you must accept them'. That, to me, is a mature response.

Your hatred of all Muslims is an immature response and won't solve the problems of this world. We are no longer able to isolate each nation and population; we operate globally and can't imprison either ourselves or others.

Instead what we must do, is NOT 'get along' in the multicultural sense, nor exclude peoples (as we did during the world wars and before) but insist on evaluation, questions, criticism, analysis and judgment. Our judgment of 'what is a good society' must be one that shares and develops common values. And we must establish those common values - and stick to them. I don't think that your solution is a good one because it rests on hatred.

ET why dont you stop bullshitting us.
All the mussies need to go back to ala.

ET - I agree with that there are many moderate Muslims. What I cannot accept about most of them is that they do nothing to condemn what the radicals say and do. It is left up to people like Kate, Kathie and others to raise the alarm bells only to be hunted down by the dangerous hordes in Canada's Human Rights Tribunals.

Moderate Muslims need to make their voices heard or run the risk of being branded with the radicals. Come on Moderates, where are you and your voices?

In San Francisco the Muslims are shouting two types of slogans. One sanitized version in English and the real thing in Arabic (taqiyya):

"The anti-Israel side had one slogan in English, and several more in Arabic. The English-language slogan: “Palestine will be free, from the river to the sea” - which frankly states the intent to destroy the Jewish state and ethnically cleanse the land."

"The Arabic slogans: “Itbach al Yahud” (slaughter the Jews), “Falastin balad’na w’al Yahud qalab’na” (Palestine is our land and the Jews are our dogs), “ba ruh, ba dam, nafdeek ya Falastin” (with our soul, with our blood, we will cleanse you oh Palestine), “al mawt al Yahud” (death to the Jews), “Khaybar Khaybar ya Yahud, jaish-Muhammad saya’ud” (Khaybar Khaybar oh Jews, the army of Muhammad will return).
[That last slogan refers to the battle of Khaybar where the prophet Muhammad opportunistically attacked and slaughtered the Jews who had been hospitable to another Arab tribe. The subsequent sacking of Khaybar by Muhammad's forces re-energized the brigands who had flocked to his cause, and persuaded several Bedouin tribes to join Muhammad's forces in hopes of fun and profit.]"

There are also very disturbing videos at the site.

faustasblog.com/?p=8957

Anyone see Vladimir Illich Layton and his lovely wife there? That's their crowd.

" Our judgment of 'what is a good society' must be one that shares and develops common values. And we must establish those common values - and stick to them. I don't think that your solution is a good one because it rests on hatred."

While I happen to agree with this,ET,what about the common values of those who follow the peadophile Momud? Are those actual "values" to a rational,thinking person? We here in North America have established our values,and stoning,clitoral circumsion,burkhas,"honour killings",etc are not part of those values.

Spray them with bacon grease then napalm.
Im with Isreal.

Muslims who do speak up against the barbarism of the death cult of islam, have to fear for their lives, and that of their families.

islam is a horrid barbaric death cult. One that if you are born into there are very few avenues of escape.

There is no value in islam in a civilized world. The purpose of that sick twisted cult it to assimilate by force. If that doesn't work, step two, is to the kill the unbelievers.

It got to go

ET.....still a wacky discredited Hagarist and closet disapprover of "ZIONISTS"?

We are supposed to envy Toronto it's diversity aren't we?

Nobody thinks this will go away on it's own do you?

just thinkin - I'm not interested in the alleged source of Islam (Mohammed) since I don't follow the 'single cause' theory. I think that Islam as an ideology arose for economic and political reasons in the 6th c.

It is primarily an economic and political mode of life, suited only to a nomadic pastoral economy, pre-industrial and totally unsuited to a modern industrial society. By defining itself as a religion it moves its axioms outside of debate and change. That's an error. It has to change and modernize.

The Christian social and political ideology which developed in Europe from about the 4th century on, became rigid, outside of adaptation, suited only to a peasant agriculture. It had to change and enable the use of reason, individual free thought and so on. It went through a difficult 400 years to change that ideology - but it did.

Islam has to do the same. It has to modernize. There are quite a few Islamic scholars writing in academic and other journals about both the need and the right to 'interpret' rather than blindly follow the Islamic writings. So, either it changes or its people can't function in the modern world.

After all, a population that rejects the use of reason, questions, dissent, can't produce new technology or adapt to various environmental problems. So, it has to change. And since all ideologies stem from the mind of men, including the Islamic, that means that men can change that ideology.

But the West has to make it clear that the multicultural acceptance of a medieval life style isn't acceptable. That's why the Australian strategy is so important. They've made it clear - and Europe and Canada haven't done so.

ET,

Nowhere in my post did I refer to "all Muslims as evil." I have never done this. I would like to know why you constantly and libelously make these assertions? It is beyond insulting, it is an outright lie.

I have stated over and over again that I stand against the Islamic ideology; that it is foundationally violent. And I stand against those who promote the worst aspects of it.

I have also constantly said that Muslims are the first victims of this ideology.

I do say that Muslim immigration must be stopped. Whether the 'vast majority' are moderate or not, it is still a trojan horse for those who wage war against non-Muslims in dar al Harb.

Furthermore, once landed, Muslims tend to create their own enclaves, having and wanting nothing to do with integrating into the host culture. This becomes a prime incubator for extremism and future separation issues. As witnessed in 'no go areas' throughout Europe and more so in the Philippines and Thailand.

So, ET, I reject your unfounded and libelous assertions and am deeply offended by them.

However, your constant and irrational support of Islamic terrorism, writ large in violent Palestinian actions, and your baseless attacks and accusations, gives one pause to think about your character and motivation. As others have mentioned.

Kate, thanks for posting that for me. I was sick as a dog last night from frostbite and a cold I had picked up at the rally.

Here is a post with further pics.

RG

http://girlontheright.com/2009/01/04/target-rich-environment/

Outstanding photos (and dialogue) reflecting both sides of the
Israel vs Gaza conflict.

I've been to many of these Jew hating events in the past (see videos below), and agree with others who have said that yesterday's rally was different. It really did feel like violence could erupt at any moment. The hatred was absolutely palpable. I don't mind saying the shrieking, spitting, Nazi salutes to holocaust survivors, the faces fully concealed, etc left me shaken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlcfPgKwveY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TckadG0lFmE

glasnost - awesome pics but certainly not for the faint-of-heart. War is a terrible but sometimes necessary extreme form of diplomacy.

Glasnost, excellent pictures. Though I admit I felt more sorrow over the Israeli Doberman than I did over the Palestinian child.

Macondo5, yes, I felt it too. There was a stench of violence in the air yesterday for sure. At any moment those animals could have overtaken the cops and come for us.

RG

Didn't pic #11 look somewhat fake to anyone?

Except for the boot on one guy which appeared to be going in the wrong direction, the rest of them, unless they were deposited that way awaiting pickup, seemed like they were intact and posed.

Now I've never, thankfully, been in a war situation, but I'd think that there would be missing heads/limbs, etc, from bomb blasts.

As to the ubiquitous 'wounded Palestinian children', there's 'blood' on their faces, but I never see gaping wounds, (or any wounds), from which the 'blood' is emanating.

Perhaps I'm just cynical.

So tell me,ET and no sarcasm intended,just how many of us must die while we wait for Islam to move 1300 years forward? Why should they have the right to kill us,while refusing to move ahead,and we not be allowed to retaliate?

And Right Girl....I just wish more people had the "gonads" you do to report AND attend this,this...well words fail me as to what to call it.

ET: **But a key problem is that when Hamas won the election, Israel closed the Gaza borders, effectively destroying its economic viability (Gaza must export or it has no income).**

ET, could you point me to your reference for that please?

I wonder how long it's going to be before they decide we aren't listening and set off a few suicide bombs in downtown Toronto to get our attention?

TJS - "how long will it be before they decide we aren't listening and set off a few suicide bombs in downtown Toronto"

Hmmmmm...... a suicide bomb set off in the middle of a Hamas protest march..... Interesting idea...

These animals should be sprayed with bacon grease.

No, pig urine.

Thanks, Right Girl, and those others who were at the rally in Toronto yesterday. If I'd known about it -- was it posted here at SDA? -- I would have gone.

I want to make clear that I am totally in favour of authentic "multiculturalism." I believe that different cultures and faiths, when working together towards common goals, is a very good thing -- and that we can learn many things from others of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds. I have lived in another country for a number of years, where I had to learn a new language and adapt to very different norms and values, and my family and I definitely benefited from this experience.

What we have in Canada, however, is not authentic multiculturalism. One can only authentically encounter "the other" when one is grounded in one's own cultural/faith story. What we have in Canada is over 40 years of Anglo-Saxon Christians -- in effect, three and four generations -- being denied their rightful story. We've been told that we are "guilty" and that our story needs to be deep-sixed in order to make way for and give credence to others' faith/cultural stories.

This is a totally false dichotomoy and, sadly, too many of us who have had our story usurped by the lib-left, multi-culti crowd (read the London School of Economics' brainwashed Quebecois Librano$ of Trudeau & Company's ilk) have sat by like mute idiots and said and done nothing except beat our breasts as we intone, "mea culpa!" "it's all our fault!"

WHAT'S all our fault? It's our fault that we opened our country to immigrants? Ironically, it's OUR Judeo-Christian hospitality that has invited the multicultural mosaic of immigrants to our free and democratic country, while we, the host culture, have been flogged almost to death -- self-flagellated would be more accurate. You're right, lookout, the West is actually committing suicide.

These Hamas marches of masked individuals spewing hatred are not lawful. What were the police doing? Why weren't they arresting some of the demonstrators? Where was the CHRC crowd while hatred towards Jews was being promoted?

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. If "mulitculturalism" means that certain ethnic/cultural/faith groups are allowed carte blanche to air their vile hatreds against groups they dislike, while the rest of us fouth-, fifth-, and sixth-generation Canadians stand by having been told to shut up, having been, effectively, disenfranchised IN OUR OWN COUNTRY WHOSE FREEDOMS WERE FOUGHT FOR AND HARD-WON BY OUR FATHERS AND GRANDFATHERS, something is terribly wrong. Terribly wrong.

I'm mad as Hell and I don't want to take this C-R-A-P anymore. Olivia Chow is my useless MP. Who should I write?

BTW, ex-liberal, you're so right about choosing which side you're on or having your side chosen for you. Now is the time of decision. We no longer have the luxury of standing idly by while our democratic freedoms are being trampled and forcibly taken away from us right under our noses by new and militant immigrants to Canada. (Happy belated Chanukah!)

batb: **I want to make clear that I am totally in favour of authentic "multiculturalism."**

batb, tell me what authentic multiculturalism is and I'll probably be in favour of it too.

ET: "Yes, a major problem in Canada - and Europe - is the policy of multiculturalism, and it's in our Charter as privilaged and indeed dominant. Effectively it sets up a situation where you can't evaluate the behaviour and beliefs of an ideology."

Well, actually, yes you can "evaluate the behaviour and beliefs of an ideology" under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (sic) in Canada -- if that "ideology" is Christian. "Official Canada" has been doing just that as Christians' behaviour and beliefs have long been under the watchful eye of the public education system, journalists, law enforcement officers, the judiciary, and the CHRCs.

For years, Christians have been, in effect, gagged and arrested for peacefully demonstrating in front of abortion clinics and have been taken to CHRCs and punished for their views (the Rev. Boissoin, Scott Brockie, the BC Knights of Columbus, Catholic Insight, etc.). They've been told that there is no place for Christianity in the public education (sic) system, even though every public educational institution was begun and supported by groups of Christians for EVERYONE, not just those professing the Christian faith. (What other faith group has opened public institutions to which everyone, regardless of their faith affiliation, is invited to participate in?)

The Charter has seemed to guarantee that it's pretty much a one-way street here in Canada: Either you're a lib-left social engineer -- and what you do and say then has official Charter sanction -- or you're a militant non-Christian, non-Anglo Saxon immigrant and you're free to say and do pretty much what you want against any group you have grievances against -- and you're given carte blanche to do it. You're untouchable.

This is what "multiculturalism" in Canada has come to mean. This is how it operates.

What's just about this?

Be sure to watch Macondo's video, posted above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlcfPgKwveY

and then part 2.

Watch how they all know they're lying, and how they resent being called on it. They can't answer a single straightforward question. When confronted with reason, they practically roll their eyes as if rationality is further evidence of oppression by Jews.

Individually, they're just dissembling idiot liars, who hide their blatant anti-Semitism behind some addled -- and now finalized -- progressive narrative.

Collectively, they're ominous.

glasnost: "batb, tell me what authentic multiculturalism is and I'll probably be in favour of it too."

I thought I had!

I suggest that Canada was an authentically "multicultural" country before the Charter of Rights (sic) and Freedoms (sic) began abrogating certain groups' rights (aka Christians and those of us of British heritage) while championing the rights and freedoms of "official Canada's" chosen groups, aka lib-left special interest/victim groups.

Canada was authentically "multicultural" when immigrants were free to come to Canada -- and they came in hordes -- but made the decision to become Canadian -- 'none of this hyphenated Canadian business -- and bring their children up as Canadians. If they wanted to keep the language of their forefathers and mothers, they taught their chilren in their homes or private schools, not in our publicly funded schools, as happens now under the auspices of "heritage languages," and they were definitely discouraged from bringing and airing grievances from their homelands.

We used to have authentic multiculturalism in Canada (they still have it in the U.S.A., I think), but not anymore.

...and just for a little levity and entertainment, here's a Palestinian kindergarten graduation ceremony:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHdWgES-Uw&feature=PlayList&p=06C4B84D4344DF6F&playnext=1&index=25

Et...your comment at 1:01 PM explains exactley how "intellectuals" screw up the world.A 6th century culture and market???? Wake up!!! This is the 21st century.You make excuses for a culture that should have died 1500 years ago? Only a pile it heigher and deeper could do that. Must be nice to sit in your little home and not have to face the real world.Frankly,ET,you are a fake.

well, batb, I wouldn't call what the HRCs do as 'evaluation'. I call what they do as 'prejudicial assertions'. There's no reason, no logic, no facticity in their claims.

Your examples (Rev. Boissoin, etc) reveal this, and their most recent 'judgment' which saw nothing wrong in a fanatic Islamic tirade...all show that what they are not doing, is critical evaluation.

If we are in favour of freedom of speech, then I don't think that we can insist that rallies, either pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel, can be stopped. The thing is, according to that insane HRC Section 13 act, such rallies ARE illegal, for they most certainly do promote 'hatred or contempt' towards another group. But, since most of us want this Section 13 removed, and our rights of freedom of expression supported, I don't see how we can insist that the demonstrators be arrested.

blackbird - nope, I'm neither wacky nor a follower of Hagarism. I don't believe in any messianic movement of any religion. I base my analyses on demographics and economic viability.

As for zionism, yes, I'm against it because I don't believe that any people (defined as an ethnic group) have any inherent rights to any land base. Sovereignty over land is a political not cultural process. The Europeans could move from Europe to settle in other parts of the globe but their sovereignty over these lands was political and economic strength and not any 'ethnic right'.

justthinkin - what do you think the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are about? They are attempts to enable those populations to develop democracy and a middle class; those two processes are the key to changing Islamic fascism and Islam to a modern version.
I don't happen to think that the I-P fight over land and a Palestinian state is the same thing as the fight against Islamic fascism.

glasnost - the Hamas winning of the election resulted in Israel closing the border in 2007-8. You can find details of this in Wikipedia on Gaza Strip, also type in 'closing of gaza borders' and you'll come up with quite a bit of data on this. Essentially, Israel (and Fatah) refused to recognize Hamas as the legitimate government, and closed the borders as Hamas/Fatah fought.

Since Gaza is a highly dependent 'plot of land' (and 30 km by 10 km can't be called much more than that)..its economy ground to a halt. There are factories in Gaza that, for example, make the clothes, which are delivered to Israel companies. With the border closing, their factories closed. I hesitate to give actual links because I'm usually sent to join Forest Gump when I do so..but google in that phrase and you'll find some data.

irwin daisy - well, you may be 'deeply offended' but my opinion of you remains the same. You view Muslims as all mindless puppet creatures of their texts; your view is that the texts are 'fascist' (your description); and therefore, the followers of this text are fascist. You reject any and all Muslim immigration which sets up a clear judgment that you view ALL Muslims as unfit to live within a democratic society.

Thanks Right Girl, you are brave.
Wish I'd heard about it, sorry I couldn't attend.

Yonge Dundas square (location of Canada's first swarming, and famous boxing day shooting) will be Canada's killing area where these idiots will go to lower Canada into authentic middle eastern muslim culture.

Beware.

More pictures and stories about the Toronto terrorist rally at Jihad Watch.

I'll be at the next one with my Sony HDD. And given how violent these fascist Muslims on our soil are becoming, and because I'd probably be arrested carrying a baseball bat, maybe I'll bring along a couple of Serbian bouncer friends and a Sikh, or two, in full regalia.

As a police officer told one counter protester at University and Bloor, "You had better leave because we can't guarantee your safety."

What are we allowing our country to become? What use is the law unless it is upheld? Will the whole world become a stinking desert to appease the multiculturalists and the spread of Islamic hate?

"You reject any and all Muslim immigration which sets up a clear judgment that you view ALL Muslims as unfit to live within a democratic society"
No I don't ET. By their own defintion of following the Quaran,they set themselves up as unfit to live in any civilized country.

ET: **But a key problem is that when Hamas won the election, Israel closed the Gaza borders, effectively destroying its economic viability (Gaza must export or it has no income).**
ET: **the Hamas winning of the election resulted in Israel closing the border in 2007-8. You can find details of this in Wikipedia on Gaza Strip, also type in 'closing of gaza borders' and you'll come up with quite a bit of data on this. Essentially, Israel (and Fatah) refused to recognize Hamas as the legitimate government, and closed the borders as Hamas/Fatah fought.**

ET, Hamas won the election in January of 2006 you seem to be implying that Israel closed “Gaza’s borders” as a direct result of the election outcome.

My understanding is that Egypt closed “Egypt’s borders” in 2007, and Israel closed “Israel’s borders” in 2008, both as a result of Hamas/Fatah in-fighting in Gaza, as well as increased rocket attacks originating from locations in Gaza.

If a nation closes its border, it is somewhat specious to couch this in terms of closing the border of the contiguous nation.

Well, ET, I maintain that you are completely in the wrong. That you continue to fabricate and revise history. That you reject how Palestinians and Islamists define themselves in their own words. And more importantly, you reject the importance of the Quran, Hadith and Sira - the very foundation of the Islamic ideology - in the social context, judicial and political views of Muslims.

You reject history and common sense. And you are at odds with and reject the opinions of almost everybody on this board on this subject, going so far as to make libelous assertions and insults.

Furthermore, you have never provided any evidence to support your ahistorical points of view. For example, "Islam is the result of Christian incursions into Arabia". Or that "fascist Islam only came into being in the 19th century."

You constantly falsify what I've said, in fact constructing outright lies. For example:

"You reject any and all Muslim immigration which sets up a clear judgment that you view ALL Muslims as unfit to live within a democratic society." ET

When what I actually said was:

"I do say that Muslim immigration must be stopped. Whether the 'vast majority' are moderate or not, it is still a trojan horse for those who wage war against non-Muslims in dar al Harb."

and,

"Furthermore, once landed, Muslims tend to create their own enclaves, having and wanting nothing to do with integrating into the host culture. This becomes a prime incubator for extremism and future separation issues. As witnessed in 'no go areas' throughout Europe and more so in the Philippines and Thailand."

So, in light of this, any reasonable person can safely assume that your irrational and baseless support for Palestine and your pet views on Islam are indeed ignorant, if not anti-Semitic.

And that, madam, is my opinion of you.

glasnost - I'm uncertain what you mean by 'closing the border of the contiguous nation'.

The Hamas election victory in January 2006 led to a weak Hamas-Fatah coalition government, which rapidly fell apart with the two sections fighting each other; Fatah retreated in mid 2007 to the West Bank and Hamas declared itself in full control of Gaza. The Israeli govt closed the crossing points in 2006 during the fighting between Fatah-Hamas while those of Egypt remained open. Thousands of Palestinians - I'm not sure how many - but in the five figures, and these were the skilled people - left during this period 2006-07. Apparently, a fair number came to Canada.

My understanding is that in mid June 2007, when the Hamas declared itself in full control of Gaza, Israel then declared Gaza a 'hostile entity' and closed its border entrances. Same with Egypt.

Does anyone here think this would have exploded like this if the Jooo's where not winning. The UN is going to call an emergency meeting. Funny thing they never do when Jews lose.
The MSM keeps on ticking away with the evil Israeli narrative, compared to the loving victims they portray the so called Palestinians as. Don't these people put bombs on their own children & retards? By hook or crook, phony or real. The media will try to render the Israelis as the true barbarians, not the rocket launching maniacs. Who have sworn to kill every Jew they can find. Silence only about that from the MSM. Makes one ashamed to be Countrymen with such traitors. These folks are in love with death as much as the barbarians if not more. Haters of humanity the lot of them.
The left has no shame, the craven governments no honor left, but surrender to the savages demands.
As the Muslims become more extreme with each victory of law fare to terror, the more our lives shrink. In 20 years if this continues, Women will have lost all their rights. You will be property again. The Elite will bow to Islam without a whimper. I wish my rant was fairy dust, but even the dhimmi’s know the time is coming. You can feel the darkness becoming solid.
JMO

"You reject any and all Muslim immigration which sets up a clear judgment that you view ALL Muslims as unfit to live within a democratic society"
No I don't ET. By their own defintion of following the Quaran,they set themselves up as unfit to live in any civilized country.

Isn't one of the lefts reasons why we should abandon Afghanistan that they will always be uncivilized and we can't change them? Isn't it therefore logical that we shouldn't let millions of them come and live here? Any leftists out there with a logical answer to this?

I bet I could find ET a leprechaun before he could find me a moderate Muslim that actually sticks to his religion and isn't considered an apostate.

RG

well, irwin daisy, I'm afraid that I'm rather indifferent to your opinion of me.

Now, as to the emergence of Islamic fascism, I've urged you to read books on both the nature of fascism and the emergence of Al Qaeda, which is Islamic fascism. You have obviously not done so. I've provided some names and titles, including Lawrence Wright's The Looming Tower, a history of al Qaeda, and various texts on fascism. Your choice has been to reject this information.

You have therefore made the, what I consider ignorant conclusion that Islam and fascism are identical. They are not.

As for the emergence of Islam in the 7th century, I totally reject ideological emergence on its own. Ideologies are always rooted in the deeper infrastructure of a population and this deeper infrastructure is the economy. The economy is based in the realities of the local environment. And the economy is bonded to the demographics, ie, how many people can that economy support.

This ecological perspective is a well-known foundation for studying societies. You don't know anything about this perspective and have instead focused only on the text - which I consider a superificial and dangerous method. Your choice. I could give you the names of some texts on the role of the environment and economy in forming the cultural behaviour/beliefs of a population - such as Emilio Moran, and Jared Diamond, and Bernard Cooper...but I doubt if you would read them.

So, enjoy your opinions.

ET: What about the rockets? What about the rockets, don't the rockets mean anything?

Perhaps you should use your esoteric vocab to help us to describe the parties in this historic event.

Israel: agressors, defenders ...
Hamas: freedom fighters, instigators, zealots ...
Palestinians: helpless pawns, freedom fighters ...

Regarding 'closing the border of a contiguous nation': If Canada decided to close its border, would you report that as "Canada closes the US Border"?

ET@11:01 AM

There is not now, nor has there ever been, a country called Palestine.

"well, irwin daisy, I'm afraid that I'm rather indifferent to your opinion of me.
Posted by: ET at January 4, 2009 5:36 PM "

What more can you say.Disagree with the great ET,and get a snide,snobby,PHD response.Also notice she never does answer questions given to her? Iggy would be proud.

ET,

Your pompous lecturing falls on deaf ears. You are asking me to read a book that concurs with your narrow opinion, which I reject.

I have read Jared Diamond and reject much of what he says in terms of the development of Islam, for it's too narrow minded, simply based on mechanics alone.

I prefer to rely on historical accounts from the time, including Islams own texts, the Hadiths and Sira. As well as the various Islamic commentators. All of which disagree with your POV.

I've also suggested certain books that you have obviously not read, such as anything from Dr. Andrew Bostom, Jamie Glazov, Joseph Schacht, David Margoliouth, Snouck Hurgronje, Charles-Emmanuel Dufourcq, Jeffery, Lammens.

I've proven through history many, many times before that Islam can easily be defined as fascist and totalitarian from the outset. It did not suddenly become so in the 19th century.

Jonah Goldberg's book, 'Fascism for Proles,' outlines fascism as thus:

The notion that communism and Nazism are polar opposites stems from the deeper truth that they are in fact kindred spirits. Or, as Richard Pipes has written, "Bolshevism and Fascism were heresies of socialism." Both ideologies are reactionary in the sense that they try to re-create tribal impulses. Communists champion class, Nazis race, fascists the nation. All such ideologies -- we can call them totalitarian for now -- attract the same types of people.

Islam, in fact, champions all three. That Muslims are the best of people and above dhimmis. That Jews and Christians are apes and pigs. And that the Muslim nation - the Ummah - has an Allah given mandate to rule the world, supreme.

Fascist Islam comes replete with it's various genocides, ethnic cleansing, pogroms, destruction of and theft from other cultures - more so than any other political ideology that has ever existed on earth.

They taught Hitler.

And you to yours.

Here's a question I have about "The Dog that didn't bark" .

If we in the West keep hearing about the diversity and multi-faith society for Palestinians where everyone is oppressed and occupied to the point where they become Suicide Bombers.....then where are all the Christian/Palestinians bombers , plus, why are we only seeing the Pro-Hamas/Hezballah morons at the protests?

The CAW will rue the day they stayed mute when the Liberal M.P.(Carolyn Parrish) embraced Palestine House and the anti-USA/Israel muslim population by bashing their(CAW) UAW Brothers as Slacked-Jawed idiots for Electing a Moron from Texas.
The NDP/CUPE/CAW coalition of yahoos will only have themselves to blame if Obama follows through with his Auto Bail-out that may demand a pull-out from canada to protect "American" jobs , you know.....those slacked-jawed idiots that Elected him last year because their all racist morons and bigots.

Palestinians in Toronto keep harping about how they just want to live in Peace with the Jews and any Israelis, BULL.......they can't even live in Peace right here in Toronto among all our Multicultural sectors because people like Mohammad Elmasry told Michael Coren on live TV that Palestinians in canada are telling him that ANY Israeli over 18 is a valid target for murder because of the Military service rule.
Elmasry's very own words pointed to the Palestinians right here whom claim to have escaped and came here to live in Peace.

Nobody seems to be connecting the Dots for why the Pro-Shariah Muslims have settled in Toronto(on the lake) ,Windsor,Montreal,Fort Erie,Niagara Falls and other "Border-Towns" with easy access to the Jew-Loving USA ?
I wouldn't put it past the Pro-Hezballah/Hamas Islamists in canada to use our Country to fire rockets into Detroit,Buffalo,Vermont,Maine, Port Angeles, and other spots while hiding among Civilians in Government housing buildings full of Bogus refugees from the Middle east and North African Muslims.
In Toronto at the Kipling and Dixon area right under the Flight paths for Planes there are Refugee-Apartment Unit with mainly Somali-Mulsims demanding Shariah law in canada , the Local Mosque was the one that told Muslims not to offend Allah by saying "Merry Christmas" because Christians and Jews and filthy pigs in the Quran according to Muhammad's voice in his head.
Honour killings, Rapes,Polygamy,and even muders are covered up by the Media that don't tell the whole story which is obvious when they refuse to mention the Religion or nation of origin for the criminal.
Jordan Manners died in a Pro-Union school where Teachers made the free will choice to not report many crimes and rapes because it would offend and smear some groups as a stereotype , the girl that was raped in the Gym was a Muslim along with the Student in Ottawa that was raped until CAIR did their PR job to hide the Whahhabi Islam Shariah to claim they weren't really Raped because that would hamper them getting married to a Muslim male as damaged-Goods.

Roger: 6.25am.

I note your remarks on Mahar Arar. Held in a 10x8x6 ft cell for months. Damp and nasty, mice droppings coming in. (He claimed).

One week later he was spruced up and looked like CBC eligible man about town. Good enough for those centre pages of the National Post and Toronto Star. The beautiful and successful. As I said then, was an independent medical team given to go ahead to carry out extensive physical testing? Perhaps they were, doubtful though. Arar should tell us his secret. Imagine the questioners of the RCMP asking Arar questions about the points you raised. Why this? Why that? What reasons?

We were caught solid.

ET you don't know your Hamass from your elbow about Islam. Combine that with your vaguely disguised hatred for Jews (Zionists)doubly discredits you.
That crap about closing the borders and stopping the Gazans from exporting demands the question of what industry (other than death)does Gaza engage in? I'll give you a shiny dollar for everyone you can name.

Professional refugees and welfare parasites do not engage in industry. Tell us your opinion ,ET, as to why the greenhouse industries bought from the Jews by Bill Gates and turned over to the PA were destroyed within weeks by these friends of yours, the Muslims?

BL@KBIRD....do not expect a response from ET.She is a lover of the underdog,even those that use retards as human bombs,lob rockets at civilians, and follow a 1500 year old peadophile.You have been exposed,ET,as the left wing nutcase "intallectual" you are.Now go play with your Hamas buddies,biddie.

ET - "Ideologies are always rooted in the deeper infrastructure of a population and this deeper infrastructure is the economy."

Do you acknowledge that the “deeper infrastructure” fundamentally derives from individual expressions of basic human nature?

How do you see human nature? Inclined to creation or destruction?

I demand a bigger Karnaugh map, Tenebris: what
about creative destruction and destructive creation?

Humans do two things: they try to make their lives better, and they try to fix the problems caused by the last time they tried to make their lives better. Always has been; always will.

So it's not destruction or creation, the question is: is creation minus destruction greater than zero? Personally, I would say, emphatically, yes.

tenebris - you are the one who is bringing up the term 'basic human nature'.

The basic human nature that I can think of is - the desire to live, which is within us the second we are born; the desire to interact which is a basic biological principle of all that lives, the emotions of fear and love which are also basic, the desire for both stability or habits of life, and for novelty. Those, I think, are basic.

The interesting thing is that human nature is both individualistic and social. That is because our species, almost alone of all species, has a limited genetic knowledge and relies almost exclusively on learned knowledge - which is always social rather than individual.

Having a learned knowledge base gives our species tremendous flexibility of adapation - we don't have to change our physical form; we change our knowledge base in order to fly. BUT, even though our knowledge base is collective/social and beyond any individual capacity to develop and accumulated over generations, it is only the individual who thinks, reasons, questions.

So, our species is a combination of the collective (our knowledge base) and the individual (who thinks, innovates, questions). This binary frame sets up conflict, for the collective operates around stability, habits, normative patterns. The individual operates around diversity, differences, dissent. However, our species requires both processes.

As such, our 'human nature' must be to both create and destroy. We must remove old dysfunctional knowledge (the earth is flat, witches exist) and create new knowledge. We must have the power to reject social modes that are dysfunctional (tribalism) and develop modes that are functional (democracy).

Didn't Maher Arar's wife win the NDP nomination? Does the NDP actively curry favour with these individuals?

blackbird, if you google in 'industries in gaza' you'll find that the industries are primarily textile and detergent production, along with some furniture, and other small business products.

A major problem is that these industries function primarily by export rather than internal to Gaza consumption, and with the closure of the borders to Israel, and the forbidding of exports, these industries have collapsed.

As for the greenhouses, some of which were dismantled by settlers upon leaving and some of which were looted by Palestinians, the Gaza officials had tried to start them up and continue them. A major problem is water, which is restricted, and above all, the closure of the borders. Gaza's economy is 85% and more dependent on exporting whatever it produces; if it can't export - it has no economy. Fresh produce and flowers, which were the basics of the greenhouses, were the staple export. With the borders closed, that economy ends.

I suggest that you do a google search and research these issues rather than simple insults which are nonproductive.

Vitruvius – for ET’s sake, I was avoiding the classic good/evil descriptions, as exemplified on each pole by Pelagius and Augustine, respectively.

I think you’ve developed a numerical stutter. The two things you refer to are, to my mind, a manifestation of a single desire – a short-term coping mechanism to enhance autonomy without undue regard for future consequence or past considerations.

If you wish to pursue the duality (and it takes a Calvinist to truly appreciate the antithesis), I would asset that you have a sign error. Population expansion and technology do not equate to the uplift of the mass of mankind (***PC segmentation fault***out of cheese error***), if you naively assert such to be the relevant dynamic in the dance of bliss. I do not expect you to fall prey to such a fallacy. What metrics are homomorphic to man, if indeed he be the measure of all things?

I really don't think we want me to go into my opinions on the matter of the dance of bliss here, in this thread, Tenebris, that would be off topic. I simply made a passing comment. Some comments are just thoughts, not arguments.

ET – Indeed, I am bringing up human nature. After all, if we are naught but puppets in a play, constrained by gene and circumstance to act out our vain imaginings to no purpose, then whence the “must”?

And why do I bring it up?

Because your genuflections to Marxism in presuming economy as fundamental to human expression do not belie the millennia of sheer, cussed, contrariness in man’s expression of himself, nor overturn his quintessential, abject, stupidity in pursuing personally and socially destructive paths.

Your pronouncements on the Israeli/Palestinian issue appear improperly grounded. Charitably, you are expecting intellectual leaps of faith in your readers because you do not adequately asset your axioms, and your “proofs” omit too many steps to re-establish your logic. You have deservedly been taken to task by other for this.

Redeem yourself.

So it's not destruction or creation, the question is: is creation minus destruction greater than zero?

Or if I may paraphrase a very wise man, "Meaningless, meaningless everything is meaningless, everything old is made new again for indeed there is nothing new under the sun". There are but seasons of our existence. A time to be born, a time to die: A time to plant a time to uproot: A time to heal and a time to kill: A time for loving and a time for hating. A time for war and a time for peace. All of man's striving is but chasing after the wind."

Wait, wait, "quintessential, abject, stupidity in pursuing
personally and socially destructive paths"? I'll drink to that!

Know then thyself, presume not God to scan;
The proper study of mankind is Man.
Placed on this isthmus of a middle state,
A being darkly wise, and rudely great:
With too much knowledge for the skeptic side
With too much weakness for the Stoic's pride,
He hangs between; in doubt to act, or rest.
In doubt to deem himself a god, or beast;
In doubt his mind or body to prefer,
Born but to die, and reasoning but to err;
Alike in ignorance, his reason such,
Whether he thinks too little, or too much:
Chaos of thought and passion, all confused;
Still by himself abused, or disabused;
Created half to rise, and half to fall;
Great lord of all things, yet a prey to all;
Sole judge of truth, in endless error hurled:
The glory, jest, and riddle of the world!

-- Alexander Pope

I'll see your Pope and raise you a Kipling (and now forsake wine for the evening's port):

As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

(And yes, it IS no topic - think about it)

Ack! ...ON topic...

tenebris - because I postulate the economy as basic to the existence of mankind, doesn't mean that I'm a Marxist! Surely you know better than that!!

The economy, understood as the means of obtaining food, shelter, clothing etc is a basic first requirement of all living organisms. It has nothing to do with Marxism but with physics and biology! It is fundamental to life. The next step is to examine what kind of economy is viable in a particular environment (an exam question I often posed to my students).

The environment limits and defines how you are going to sustain yourself. This involves soil type, climate, temperature, water supplies (rainfall, river, mountain runoff etc), seasonalities, plant life, animal life etc. Can the plants and/or animals be domesticated? In most of Africa for example, this was not possible. The amount of 'energy' from the environment directly affects the size of the population.

Then, you move on to the organization of this population (political, legal, kinship). The ideology..religious, narratives, etc..is only the final conceptual 'glue' of the society. Final not origin.
This is not a marxist analysis. I'm surprised at you.

I disagree; my views on the Israeli-Palestinian situation are grounded. In facts. I've provided quite a few of them. I don't subscribe to the emotions so often expressed here as 'grounded opinions' of 'they are all animals';' they are all fascists'; they deserve to be nuked'..and so on.

So, sorry, I don't feel any need to redeem myself.

Yes, vitruvius, nice quote.

ET

Three pages in the google search so far, hate industry,death industry, tunnel smuggling industry and one notation that there was no industry. How far need I look and how old were your references? Was it when the filthy Juice you hate ran the place?

Why do you lie about the green house compounds? You are an underdog lover aren't you?

ET to borrow a very poorly written poem.

Where the cloud goeth, The LORD knoweth, The cloud knoweth not.

Where the man goeth, The LORD knoweth, Knoweth the man not?

Man is not simply a victim of happenstance and circumstance.

Put a group of humans whose belief is X in a given environment and you will have a drastic difference from a group of humans whose belief is Y.

What we believe about ourselves, our world, our society and our relationship with the deity is far more important than you would have us to believe.

Like waiting for Godot, even some conservative naifs are still expecting the mythical moderate Muslim majority to show up and be counted.

Any Muslim who is moderate by Western standards is part of a small weak minority who are cowed by the militant majority except for a few brave voices whom you can count on the fingers of one hand out of millions and everyone knows by name e.g. in Canada Salim Mansur, Tarek Fatah and Irshad Manji. They are shunned by the majority who consider them borderline or wholly apostate, no small threat as many Muslims believe apostasy deserves a death sentence.

Consider as evidence against a significant moderate Muslim contingent that not a single mosque's congregation in the West has ejected any imam as too radical, despite much documentation via Internet writings or secret filming of sermons in mosques that reveal marked hostility and agitation toward the host countries and their citizens by the mostly Saudi directed imams.

Muslims divide into increasingly larger groups starting with the core fanatics willing to kill others and themselves in the name of their religion, those who actively support them financially and logistically, facilitating their free movement through their communiy, those colluders who do their best to distract the host community from Muslim wrongdoing and drain funds by gumming up human rights machinery with mostly trumped up or frivolous complaints of Islamophobia, those who push for sharia, those who agree in polls that suicide bombing is justified, and finally those who are complicit with their silence, who make no objection to tens of thousands of attacks around the world by Muslims against all other religions.

There is no moderate Muslim cavalry who will ride to save us.

I'll see your Kipling, Tenebris, and raise you a glass of port. And I'll note that we had better cut this out, or Kate is going to smack us upside the head; other than to mention:

The Sons Of Martha
by Rudyard Kipling

The Sons of Mary seldom bother, for they have inherited that good part;
But the Sons of Martha favour their Mother of the careful soul and the troubled heart.
And because she lost her temper once, and because she was rude to the Lord her Guest,
Her Sons must wait upon Mary's Sons, world without end, reprieve, or rest.

It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and cushion the shock.
It is their care that the gear engages; it is their care that the switches lock.
It is their care that the wheels run truly; it is their care to embark and entrain,
Tally, transport, and deliver duly the Sons of Mary by land and main.

They say to mountains ``Be ye removèd.'' They say to the lesser floods ``Be dry.''
Under their rods are the rocks reprovèd---they are not afraid of that which is high.
Then do the hill-tops shake to the summit---then is the bed of the deep laid bare,
That the Sons of Mary may overcome it, pleasantly sleeping and unaware.

They finger Death at their gloves' end where they piece and repiece the living wires.
He rears against the gates they tend: they feed him hungry behind their fires.
Early at dawn, ere men see clear, they stumble into his terrible stall,
And hale him forth like a haltered steer, and goad and turn him till evenfall.

To these from birth is Belief forbidden; from these till death is Relief afar.
They are concerned with matters hidden---under the earthline their altars are---
The secret fountains to follow up, waters withdrawn to restore to the mouth,
And gather the floods as in a cup, and pour them again at a city's drouth.

They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose.
They do not preach that His Pity allows them to drop their job when they damn-well choose.
As in the thronged and the lighted ways, so in the dark and the desert they stand,
Wary and watchful all their days that their brethren's ways may be long in the land.

Raise ye the stone or cleave the wood to make a path more fair or flat;
Lo, it is black already with the blood some Son of Martha spilled for that!
Not as a ladder from earth to Heaven, not as a witness to any creed,
But simple service simply given to his own kind in their common need.

And the Sons of Mary smile and are blessèd---they know the Angels are on their side.
They know in them is the Grace confessèd, and for them are the Mercies multiplied.
They sit at the feet---they hear the Word---they see how truly the Promise runs.
They have cast their burden upon the Lord, and---the Lord He lays it on Martha's Sons!

And, of course:

I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

-- Albert Camus

ET – Oh, good. Now we are getting to definitions. So, basically, you are asserting economy to be equivalent to nature, as understood in the nature/nurture debates?

Stop presuming that people know what you are talking about. (and I do apologize for the Marxist dig, but it did work).

Now, expand on the strictures of historical constraint that bias a mere instantaneous analysis of the Israel/Palestine imputation of guilt. Quite clearly, you and irwin daisy disagree on matters of fact. Let us leave those aside for now, and first determine if they truly matter, because where you two are at odds is an issue of justice.

Are the Israelis and Palestinians equal actors, or does history require one to be judged more rigorously that the other?

Oh well, I'm just a country boy ... don't understand most of the big city words. Born'n bred in Alberta. Not that I'm an expert, but I suspect we have the same economic system and all that non-tribal sh*t that the Eastern folks have.

My question is - why don't I trust the "Eastern Society" ... nobody learned me not to ... Iggy said he was sorry. I also have friends from the East and they are good folks.

Can any professor explain to me why individual to society and society to individual isn't working for me ... given all other things appear to be equal?

Vitruvius - Great poem.

Again, ET is strongly and tirelessly defending her anti-Israel stance. She surely knows that Intellect is not sacrosanct. Instead of being so defensive about criticism, listen to another viewpoint once in awhile, ET.
You really don't have the answer to this age-old problem, and it would be arrogant to think you have. More is going on in the spiritual world over the land of Israel than a non-believer can comprehend.

ET,

"There's an interesting inteview with Massoud in FrontPageMag dot com, Nov 13, 2007, called 'Muslims Against Sharia'. Google it and you'll find it quite informative. For example, he says:"

"Islam in its present form is incompatible with modern society"

- ET (posted later on another thread)

"You (irwin daisy) reject any and all Muslim immigration which sets up a clear judgment that you view ALL Muslims as unfit to live within a democratic society."

- ET (earlier on this thread)

It's good you've finally come around to reading 'Muslims against Sharia' which I suggested you read about a year and a half ago. However, ET, your posts are quite revealing, wouldn't you say?

Perhaps your rigid and narrow view may be opening up? Maybe you might become open to actual debate based on the facts?

On the other hand, you could be slipping into hypocrisy on top of your prejudice.

We'll see. A change in approach would be nice and informative for all involved. No shrillness needed, or falsifying what people say.

Roger...Wow, at least one person on this blog knows what's really going on in Toronto...but you didn't mention the infiltration of the blue collar and semi-educated white collar into the infrastructure now thickening and almost cemented...police, city workers...your cable guy...we have had to put up with it in our Universities for several decades and now the most frightening thing is the subtle influence from their encrusted undemocratic mentality that has crept into our society.....all safely packaged in...you guessed it '''multi-culturalism...

tenebris, the 'nature/nurture' framework is a 19th c. analysis; we don't, thankfully, divide the world up into such binary simplicities anymore.

My focus on societal analysis is to first acknowledge the environmental realities that a population has to deal with; the economic reality that the population develops rests on a realistic assessment of that environment. You can't grow wheat in the arctic. This is a basic ecological societal framework. You can read Jared Diamond's work on that, though I prefer Emilio Moran. Google his name and check out his basic book on Adaptability; basic ecological anthropology...and chapters on living in arctic zones, grasslands, arid zones, tropics.

The West (Europe) has the richest biome on the planet which is why it moved, eventually, into industrialism.

You seem to focus on binarisms (nature/nurture; free will/sin; good/evil). I'm not into that type of analysis; I work within complex adaptive systems and binarisms don't play much of a role.

No, irwin daisy and I don't simply disagree on matters of fact but also on matters of interpretation. It's a total and full disagreement!

As for the Israeli-Palestinian situation, I've outlined my views on that so many times, it would be redundant to repeat them. To reduce this complexity to what you seem to want, namely, who is good and who is evil, as do so many posters on this thread, doesn't, in my view, work in this situation.

There are mistakes on both sides but I feel that the greatest errors have been made by Israel with its occupation and settlements. Another error, made by the world, and used by the tribal Arab and Persian states, is to merge the I-P situation with Islamic fascism; the two have completely different causes. I like Wright's book on Al Qaeda for an examination of Islamic fascism.

"Some people you just can't make happy no matter what you do."

:)

Love it Bob C!!!!

ET: "I've outlined my views on that so many times"
ET and New agree about more than one thing: try to talk others into your way of thinking until their eyes glass over.
Fortunately, ET knows how to type.

me:

Check out these links for exactly how close Hamas is to the NDP, Arar's,CAIR-Can,Nihad Awad,and the Financial-Jihad in Canada via CHRC's and CRTC where Dr.Sheema Khan tried to Sue and Shut-Down a Radio station for allow a gues to tell the truth about her ties to the Whahhabi Saudi's and the Crusades in canada for Shariah Law .
Sheema Khan was at the Arar Inquiry to give evidence for Islamophobia and Racial-profiling in canada which lead to Maher Arar being arrested in the USA, CAIR-Canada held a "Victory Dinner" for the Arar Millions$$$ and guess who was there....Jack Layton,Lib M.P. Dion, Sheema Khan,Mohammed Elmasry,Gilles DuCeppe, and Tarek Fatah who now denounces CAIR .
CAIR members have been Convicted and are in US Prisons for Terrorism funding to Hamas via the Bogus Islamic Charity ( Holy Land Fund) that Maher Arar himself claimed was denied a job at because of the Public Smear of his alleged ties to Terror groups.
The University Of Ottawa also provided "Expert Witnesses" for Torture to back-up Arar's claims for Alleged harm , and guess what...that same U of O is now on the donations list for the Arar's Millions$$$ according to CAIR's on Press release for the Victory Dinner hosted by CAIR .
Nihad Awad is on a CTV view interview where he admits that he and CAIR have supported him since 2002 , that's because Arar had a second home in Boston near the 9/11 Airport and was photoed by the FBI for attending a Mosque alleged to have Al-Qaeda ties for recruiting Jihadists.
Read the original Lawsuit by Arar on his own website where it declares that "JORDAN" caused his harm and allow Kidnappers to grab him to return a Draft-Dodger for a Military Trial in Syria.
The Inquiry revealed all this information that included the news of Arar getting a Gun permit just after the Montreal Massacre by Gamil Ghrabi
on his Jihad suicide mission for Allah.

http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/15993.shtml

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

As for the NDP and Hamas.....check out this article for Arar's wife and Alexa McDonough at a Pro-Hamas rally in Ottawa back in 2004 , the NDP and MP McDonnough had joined CAIR-Canada's crusade to Sue us taxpayers for $400'000'000.00 based on Alleged harm , and YES.....his Wife ran for the NDP in Ottawa to win the Seat from the Anti-USA/Israel population .
http://nonprofitnet.ca/wao/wao.php?show&1086

Remember the story of canada's 1st Terrorist charged under the new rules which was Momin Khawaja from Ottawa, he was the person at the same Mosque as the Arar's which CAIR's Lawyers advised them to not help Canada and the RCMP expose Terror-cells in canada.
Shortly after refusing to help protect canada from Jihad, the Arar's fled to Tunisia to live with her Relatives and one of them was alleged to be linked to the Muslim Brotherhood , that's why Arar had to flee Tunisia and he chose JFK airport which is very close to CAIR's NY office and Nihad Awad.
Arar was REFUSED entry to the USA as I was once while in my car and they didin't think I was a valid visitor , they had the right under the U.N.Charter to send me back to the Place Of Entry
on the Canadian side.
ERGO, Arar had a shady history in the USA and was flagged as a Syrian flying alone on a Canadian Passport which are mostly fake passports from the Middle East , this forced the USA to send him back to Tunisia to be with his family ( we know if he was sent to canada the Media would say the USA denied him to go back to his family) but Tunisia feared an Asylum claim since they didn't report to Canada that they were there with our Passports .
Only the old quasi Jew-Hating Jordan would take him in to meet up with his family to fly back to canada , his wife never showed and the Arab "Dawg's" collected the bounty for this Draft-Dodger.

$10 million for an alleged harm will buy lots of Terror-camps in B.C. to train Jihadist before attacking the USA border towns.

I never trusted the guy , nor did I believ that M.P. Mc Donough and Taliban-Jack were that stupid to not know about the Hamas ties and Terrorism links for CAIR and the Ottawa Mosque.
That was the same Mosque that Chretien went to after he told the media that the USA deserved 9/11 , but Chretien wanted to assure Muslims that 9/11 had no ties to Islam .
This he did before visiting Ground-0 to pay respect to the 24 canadian civilians murdered by 19 people claiming they were Muslims and obeying Muhammad to kill the unbelievers and Jews.