Do snowbirds count as environmental refugees?

With all the global cooling going on maybe the UN can provide free transportation and lodging for all their offilcials and employees at some fancy resort in the Kanduhar region of Afghanistan. I'd be willing to help pay for that.

I expect the UN to pay for my annual winter trip to a Mexican beach . . . nothing says climate refuge like a frozen Canuck a la playa con cerveca fria.

Nanodiamonds found that debunks AGW theory. Physical evidence found that supports that a Comet struck earth 12,900 years ago.
To be published today (this date) in the journal "Science"
Doug Kennett, Archeologist U of Oregon

The UN is a self generating work project for the third world administered by western liberals who are sure they know what is best for the world, as long as someone provides them with the funds to make it happen. I wonder who will get to pick up the bill for moving all of the Africans out of that environmental wasteland and moving them to the country of their choice? They do get to chose, right?

"top 10" list of warming solutions.

Topping the list was "limiting the leftard greenie population" by keeping them in the manner to which they've become accustomed. Drugged,doped,and living in trees .
(cultural/social training for those mentioned above that are in denial of their "heritage" will be reeducated by Comrade Gore's Enlightenment Fund)

"Limiting population" as a policy is a socialist construct. If one was really serious about slowing birthrates other policies like freer trade, accelerating globalization will work much better - prosperity is the one thing that produces long-term sustainable population growth.

Tommy Douglass - Not Dead Enough!

If the kids on the Suzuki commercial only knew the green poison he preaches they wouldn't be so eager to put the "No Wasteful Parents Allowed" sign on the treehouse and willingly snuggle around a person that wouldn't hesitate to strip parents of modern tools to protect their kids from common but deadly harm.

What would the kids think if one of their family or friends died from something treatable like pneumonia or other infections because the good fruit fly doctor and his Maoist green army succeed in establishing Western population control policies that deny modern drugs and medicines to the general population?

Suzuki is no friend of children. He prefers most of them (and their parents) didn't exist at all. That Suzuki used kids in a piece of socialist green propaganda shows just what kind of a disingenous creep the guy really is. Maybe he'll be playing a flute in his next commmercial...

With out a doubt, Leberalism should be catagorized in the medical books and society, as a mental disorder. This insanity that is sucking the monetary system dry along with each and every taxpayer will be the demise of our way of life if not stopped. Retards and misfits of society used to be locked up or at least marginalized and ignored, now they have big budget Hollywood movies on our national CBC or star in creepy eco-ads with children on tv. We need to continue to ignore the MSM and tell our politicians not to bail out these purveyors of lies and deciet, "for the sake of the children" as the lefties say. This lunacy has cost billions so far, and only the free thinkers of society will turn the tide of stupidty of the left.

Dr. Fruitfly has been preaching a version of this for years.

All lefties report to the concentration camps for forced sterilization . Dr. Megele Suzuki will great you at the gates.

"Sterilization will set you free"

The Club of Rome whose main solution has been to limit, if not reverse population, got behind environmentalism in the early 90's as a means to speed up the process.

Maurice Strong (co-author of the Kyoto Protocol) is a member, along with Al Gore, Javier Solana (Secretary General of the Council of the European Union) and a lot of other expected 'world leaders'.

“It would seem that men and women need a common motivation, namely a common adversary, to organize and act together in the vacuum such as motivation seemed to have ceased to exist or have yet to be found. The need for enemies seems to be a common historical factor…Bring the divided nation together to face an outside enemy, either a real one or else one INVENTED for the purpose…"

"Democracy will be made to seem responsible for the lagging economy, the scarcity and uncertainties. The very concept of democracy could then be brought into question and allow for the seizure of power."

"In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. The real enemy [of the elites and their minions] then is humanity itself.”

"Democracy is not a panacea. It cannot organize everything and it is unaware of its own limits. These facts must be faced squarely. Sacrilegious though this may sound, democracy is no longer well suited for the tasks ahead. The complexity and the technical nature of many of today’s problems do not always allow elected representatives to make competent decisions at the right time.” (Particularly note worthy vis a vis the EU)

- “The First Global Revolution” (1991) published by the Club of Rome.

How prescient.

Interesting:

"...Paul Martin's name appeared on that list. Paul Martin is a former Canadian Prime Minister. The only New Age flag Javier Solana really flew publicly was that of the Club of Rome. Canadian Alexander King was a co-founder of the Club of Rome. Canadian billionaire cum esotericist Maurice Strong was involved and was to become a leading UN figure in setting up a global governance mechanism that saw its fullest expression at a Rio de Janeiro Earth Summit in 1992. Maurice Strong has been photographed in group meditations at the New Age "Vatican City" of Findhorn. They were praying to whatever "source" they acknowledge for "the Reappearance of the Christ." By "Christ," they definitely did not mean Jesus. Strong was there as part of an excursion with Lucis Trust/World Goodwill folk under the auspices of something they call the "World Service Intergroup." Using their own words, "

"The purpose of the World Service Intergroup is to generate a focused, conscious and deliberate intergroup effort to specifically assist the Externalization of the Hierarchy and the Reappearance of the Christ. . . . One of our tasks is to recognize them ["hierarchy"], and assist them by preparing humanity for the imminent reappearance of the World Teacher. This World Teacher, or The Coming One is known by many different names in the various spiritual traditions: Christ; Maitreya; Messiah; Imam Mahdi etc. This reappearance will be preceded by a widespread opening of the heart of humanity, and a recognition of the inner teacher in each one of us, manifesting as a consciousness of love and service to all.[3]"

Sounds like Maurice Strong and Paul Martin are hoping to usher in the same being as Imadinnerjacket.

A creepy amalgamation of new age spiritualism, the environment, bloodlust and greed. Fueled by billions of dollars.

"We need to get some broad based support,
to capture the public's imagination...
So we have to offer up scary scenarios,
make simplified, dramatic statements
and make little mention of any doubts...
Each of us has to decide what the right balance
is between being effective and being honest."
- Stephen Schneider,
Stanford Professor of Climatology,
lead author of many IPCC reports, CoR

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Unless we announce disasters no one will listen."
- Sir John Houghton,
first chairman of IPCC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It doesn't matter what is true,
it only matters what people believe is true."
- Paul Watson,
co-founder of Greenpeace

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We've got to ride this global warming issue.
Even if the theory of global warming is wrong,
we will be doing the right thing in terms of
economic and environmental policy."
- Timothy Wirth,
President of the UN Foundation

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"No matter if the science of global warming is all phony...
climate change provides the greatest opportunity to
bring about justice and equality in the world."
- Christine Stewart,
fmr Canadian Minister of the Environment

http://green-agenda.com/globalrevolution.html

newswithviews.com/Cumbey/constance6.htm

Why doesn't the US reduce its carbon footprint by claiming the UN a climate resecue area,and immediteatly send them all to the source,i.e. Darfur,Sudan,Africa??

irwin -

Those quotes are almost scary enough to be unbelievable. I'd love to share them with some left-leaning AGW patsies I know; do you have any reliable links?

Thanks!

mhb23re

Ah yes, "limiting population": the culture of death that J2P2 spoke of so often is on the move ... the Obamamessiah riding one of the four Horses of the Apocalypse ...

Horrifying image, isn't it?

Betcha Holdren doesn't have any kids.

Maybe we should start a UN backed de-population scheme.

I nominate John Holden to be the first to be de-populated !! What's that you say, he meant other people have to de-populated, not the leaders of the De-Population Movement (DPM).

All people are equally available for de-population, but DPM leadership is more equally unavailable than others.

Report to the camps !! Save Mother Gaia.

Any time I encounter someone advocating "limiting population" as an answer to the world's problems, I retort with this:

"If you truly believe there are too many people in the world you are more than welcome to remove yourself from the gene pool."

It's amazing how fast they clarify that they don't mean *themselves*. Typical liberal: will tell everyone else what to do but won't do it himself.

Welcome to the leftist bizarro world, justifying massive government intervention on a worldwide basis, by making plans to "help" the millions who will supposedly suffer as a result of the Earth imminently turning into a burning inferno,

while the temperature of the Earth continues to slightly drop...for a period going on eleven years now.

This whole charade can be likened to an argument with a young spoiled child, who's incapable of rational thought:

at first the child trys to explain why he should get his way. When you present facts that show how him getting his way is impossible ("I'm sorry Billy but I can't take you on a trip to the moon, its too far away and there's no way to get there"),

he descends into a hysterical tantrum.

mhb,

The 'green-agenda.com/globalrevolution.html' links to pages and documents published by the Club of Rome, as well as member's quotes.

The CoR appears to be the controlling organization behind the entire environmental and economic assault. Their first document published in 1972, titled 'The Limits of Growth,' set the stage.

George Soros, naturally, is a member. He is also a key figure behind the current economic chaos. The following CoR quote explains a lot:

"Democracy will be made to seem responsible for the lagging economy, the scarcity and uncertainties. The very concept of democracy could then be brought into question and allow for the seizure of power."

So this means the UN will mandate sterilizations in places where the population density is highest?

Somehow I don't think that will be the case.

irwin daisy quoting the World Service Intergroup: "This World Teacher, or The Coming One is known by many different names in the various spiritual traditions: Christ; Maitreya; Messiah; Imam Mahdi ..."

Another word for this "Teacher" is the Anti-Christ.

"But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by its cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed ... you submit to it readily enough ... such boasters are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder! Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is not strange that his ministers also disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness. Their end matches their deeds."

2 Corinthians 11

"For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths ..."

2 Timothy 4: 3,4

"They promise ... freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for people are slaves to whatever masters them."

2 Peter 2: 19

Mo Strong, Gore, and Suzuki and their minions (wasn't Trudeau a member of the Club of Rome?) have all the marks of these "false apostles, deceitful workers, and ministers of righteousness." They are definitely exhorting people to wander away to myths rather than stick with sound scientific doctrines.

Kyrie Eleison.

Slightly o/t. But pretty interesting.
http://en.sevenload.com/videos/cwXiuUh-Doomsday-Called-Off
I am as shocked at the source, Newsworld as by this debunking of the CG claims outright. (is that YOU CBC?)
I don't watch tv news stations anymore.

(Sorry if this was covered before, but been busy over the holidays and just caught this.)

Hold it.A 150 million "enviromental" refugees???No problem.Rachel Carson is killing them off at a good rate.

Irwin
"Democracy will be made to seem responsible for the lagging economy, the scarcity and uncertainties. The very concept of democracy could then be brought into question and allow for the seizure of power."
A good example of that is the coalition, still being promoted by Layton and his pals and still not rejected by Iggie.

Irwin, that's pretty interesting stuff there. I remember The Club of Rome from waaaaaay back in the 1970's from a second year anthropology course.

The prof thought the sun rose and set on these guys, and their book "Small Is Beautiful". I'm sitting there, like 19 or 20 years old, soaking wet behind the ears, and telling the prof "but sir, the numbers don't add up!" He didn't have a ready answer for me.

The bollix that our public policy has become seems to support your contention. Too many people my age believed the hype back in the 1970's and now they are old and in control of the Ministry of Paper Clips. The resulting mess is what we get for employing English majors who can't do simple arithmetic.

As to the "limiting population" bit, that's Leftist code for giving away birth control to the savages. I bet Mr. Holden gets political contributions from Big Pharma, they love the idea.

Thanks, irwin daisy, for reminding us about all this New World Order stuff, which is real and scary.

Pierre Trudeau was for many years a member of the Club of Rome and Paul Desmarais is connected at one level or another in various worldwide secret societies which encourage limited population growth, etc.

"Itching ears" indeed.

Limit population growth, eh?

Hmmmm. Aren't these the people who run international aid networks, developement aid networks, UNICEF, WHO, etc?

If "limiting population" is their goal, simply saving all that money trying to help the poor is an easy solution.

I would bet they haven't exactly thought this one through...

My dilemma with this topic is that I am far right on most issues and I know climate change is a socialist take-over scam, however, the reduction of world population through attrition is not a bad idea.

I don't know how one arrives at how many people are welcome onto the surface of this planet, but it's looking pretty crowded to me.

The democratic and prosperous left has been reducing it's numbers for decades now. With monetary prosperity comes less need for a dozen kids to support the subsistence family.

If the collectivists win, there will be a lot less prosperity and more people. They defeat their own purpose. Perhaps they would prefer to depopulate by force ... I don't know, but clearly we would do well with a smaller world population.

33 million Canadians have a high standard of living, you cannot say that about the billion plus Chinese or the billion plus East Indians. If they ever do achieve our standard of living, there will be few resources left after about one generation of a couple of billion more people out cruisin' for burgers in their new car.

If we take the capitalist route, the future will be a less populated and more prosperous world. If the control freaks at the UN have it their way, there may be gas showers for billions and the remaining numbers will be slaves who don't own guns.

Either way, I think we are headed for depopulation. How it comes about may even wind up being a huge surprise. Who knows?

Sorry that should have read ...

The democratic and prosperous WEST has been reducing it's numbers for decades now.

Phantom:
"As to the "limiting population" bit, that's Leftist code for giving away birth control to the savages. I bet Mr. Holden gets political contributions from Big Pharma, they love the idea."
Not to mention the viagara recommended for the multi married Muslim elite.

Human population growth is comparable to bacterial population growth modelling in Petri dishes.

There are four phases - lag phase (long slow growth, think millenia ago 1800s), log phase (rapid growth, 20th century), plateau, then death, as all resources are exhausted.

Trying to limit population growth is like the game of Prisoner's dilemma. It won't be successful, because people will ultimately exercise their own free will to their own selfish desires.

So, my friends, let's enjoy the ride, for however long it lasts. We're OK, but at some point, the world won't be able sustain the current population growth rates.

The green revolution bought us time - fertilizer has really helped us keep the music going - but at some point - probably a few hundred years in the future - there will be a reckoning (unless the rest of the world discovers the birth control pill and adopts NA and Euro 1.2-1.4 or whatever kids per family).

Sorry, long post.

I bought into that idea, and almost missed out on having a family. I was an ancient 32 before my first was born. I remember who instigated the movement back then. It was the womens' lib folks. I was young enough to be influenced by those people. I caught on before it was too late, but many people in this country are facing their golden years all by themselves.

Before we get too carried away, blaming ourselves for this mess, we should remember that two generations of Europians were wiped out bt German aggression. England lost 800,000 in WW1. France lost many more. WW2 was the fatal blow to their gene pool. That's what really created the vacuum which sucked so many muslim immigrants into their midst.

And besides, isn't nature trying its best to limit population? By sharing our advances in food production, medicine, and technology with unsustainable populations, we're actually commiting crimes against nature.

Ed, the Viagra thing falls under the "tolerating the savages and their crazy customs" part of Leftyism.

Your average Lefty thinks 60 year old bearded, toothless Afghan warlords with three wives "marrying" 12 year old girls is a quaint custom... when it happens in Afghanistan. Add the viagra in and it becomes a big joke.

The joke stops being funny when we're talking about Bountiful BC. Those toothless, bearded ancients need to be subjected to some serious population reduction, according to the Left.

"Do snowbirds count as environmental refugees?"

"I expect the UN to pay for my annual winter trip to a Mexican beach . . . nothing says climate refuge like a frozen Canuck a la playa con cerveca fria."

Indeed.

I suggest that the entire population of Canada decamp to California, Florida, the Caribbean, Mexico, Spain, the Riviera, Tuscany and the Adriatic and set up "UN refugee camps" in these locations post haste.

I presume this includes Canadians suffering from the unusual cold & snow this season? To which address at the UN's HQ in NYC should we apply to get free vacations to Hawaii, California, Arizona, Mexico, Florida, & Cuba?

People are the problem? Wasn't it a, you know, PERSON, who said this?

Apparently there is no such thing as irony any more.

As for me, I am fine with people. The more the merrier. I think the real problem is snow pollution. The air is so thick with it that sometimes we can't see across the road; trees and ground are covered by it, and variants of snow pollution have caused a form of scum that covers local water bodies for months at a time. It's a pollution trifecta! Where is the outrage?

batb - "various worldwide secret societies"

How do you know?

Jack - If you "don't know how one arrives at how many people are welcome onto the surface of this planet" why do you think "the reduction of world population through attrition is not a bad idea"?

Begs the question.

Civilization and political stability means a high standard of living and full bellies.

Barbarism and social strife means poverty and hunger.

Economically, we seem to be in a bit of a pickle because financial capital is limited, either through scarcity or hording. And now we want to limit human capital?!

And people think that this will be a good thing?

Idiots.

Tenebris,

Actually, the standard of living of the average joe after the black plague went up. Labour shortages and a surplus of housing, etc. In fact, it was the greatest increase in the standard of living for almost a thousand years.

And since there was a drop in prices of most goods (including food and housing,) inflation didn't seem to be an issue. Not that they measured that sort of thing back then.

Population declines work well for everyone. Unless of course you live in an unfunded welfare state reliant on the slave labour of an over-taxed young to pay for the freebees of the deadbeat old liberals. Then you're f*#@ed.

I continue to shake my head at the leftards out there. The article Kate links to describes how two Standford researchers posit mankind (namely, Euro-trash settling the new world) is to blame for the Little Ice Age.

I marvel at how AGW remains any shred of credibility amongst the general population. With increasingly hysterical and ridiculous claims emanating from the AGW camp, I would have expected lawsuits against frauds such as Gore and Suzuki to have been filed by now.

...retains* any shred of credibility...

I think we should ban all immigration from low carbon producing areas to high producing areas...put that in your pipe lefties!

Yet another reason to dismantle the UN and boot it out of North America.

Kate, link more to your archives. Your track record is impeccable.

MSM is reluctant to link to theirs. Too embarrassing.

Warwick; "Unless of course you live in an unfunded welfare state reliant on the slave labour of an over-taxed young to pay for the freebees of the deadbeat old liberals."

Very true !! Many pension plans are already huge Ponzi Schemes.

World population growth rates AND actual population numbers are set to fall dramatically in the next couple of decades.

Nothing, but nothing, breaks a chain letter, pyramid scheme faster than new contributors refusing to contribute - or not even being around.

Population could be controlled to a significant degree by ending immigration from Muslim countries. That together with strict conditions on receiving aid would force these people and their governments to confront their obvious ideological shortcomings and take responsibility for themselves. Or else.

Otherwise, we all see what is happening. The flame of their ideological hatred and thirst for supremacy over all others is being fanned, funded and spread.

There is no future good in store.

The House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs published a report entitled ‘The Economic Impact of Immigration’ in the spring of 2008 which concluded that there were no net economic benefits to mass immigration in the UK. In other words, the European country whose immigrant community contains the greatest fraction of law-abiding, productive immigrants still has no net economic benefit to offset the increasingly hideous social and cultural costs of mass immigration.

Moving across the English Channel to France, an organization called Contribuables Associés (Associated Taxpayers) recently published a report finding that immigrants, who make up 11% of the population, reduce economic growth by two thirds, create a net annual tax burden of 26.19 billion Euros, and necessitate an annual security budget of 5.2 billion Euros. Immigrants therefore constitute a significant net drain on the French economy, a net drain with no obvious solution. Whatever economic benefits the French may have gained earlier from relatively targeted mass immigration are now being rapidly undone. It is widely claimed that restrictive labour laws in France hold back the economy because employers will not hire, even during a boom, people they cannot fire during an economic downturn, as the eventual costs will outweigh the immediate benefits. Ironically, France itself has not had the wit to act with similar prudence, having ‘hired’ in the 50s and 60s a large group of immigrants whose massively and uselessly bloated numbers form a constituency it cannot ‘fire’ now that times are hard. The shocking criminality and hostility these people are spewing forth into the country is too well known to be adduced here as further evidence.

Even the Toronto Star published an article on immigration stating that it is creating a net annual tax burden of $4.6 billion a year.

I don't think this includes the increased costs in security, incarceration and sanity, either.

Jack - If you "don't know how one arrives at how many people are welcome onto the surface of this planet" why do you think "the reduction of world population through attrition is not a bad idea"?

Tenebris,

I know because can see how over-populated many regions of the world are already. They are flooding into the less populated Western counties as fast as they can. I also see how many millions of people die annually from starvation and disease. I can tell because of the number of unresolvable wars and major disputes are going on all the time usually over shortages of resources.

If I am wrong, and I don't think I am, it is still not a bad idea to limit population growth on a finite ball in space. Don't you think?

Consider this fact ...

Nearly all the genius, inventions and discoveries occurred before 1950 and that includes the electricity, the computer, television, the automobile, rocketry, nuclear energy not to mention the likes of Einstein and others. This all happened with far less than half of the population we presently have.

NOTHING NEW HAS BEEN INVENTED OR DISCOVERED SINCE.

We have indeed improved and developed many of the those things, but nothing new since.

Why we are less creative is anyone's guess. Perhaps too distracted by entertainment media to have time for creative or original thought.

As we grow in population I see the value of your 'human capital' parroting the value of our fiat currency. Worth less as more is printed to imitate real wealth.

From the Independent UK, a newspaper that recognizes the valuable input from [' experts, who include recognised authorities from the world's leading universities and research institutes, as well as a Nobel Laureate,'] ha !

Climate scientists: it's time for 'Plan B'

[The collective international failure to curb the growing emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere has meant that an alternative to merely curbing emissions may become necessary.]

[..]

[The plan would involve highly controversial proposals to lower global temperatures artificially through daringly ambitious schemes that either reduce sunlight levels by man-made means or take CO2 out of the air.]

[..]

[Artificial cloud cover over areas of open sea could lower global temperatures]

Sorry. Too late. The sun is already doing that. Has been since 1998. See Sunspots, cosmic rays, cloud formation. Try to keep up, eh ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/climate-scientists-its-time-for-plan-b-1221092.html

Jack 205 PM

I agree. Just look at the new possibilities for agriculture. Mesopotamia was exhausted long ago. Next civilization to flourish - the Greeks - until they had exhausted their topsoil - then the Romans - then Europe - and then one of the last great untapped resources of topsoil was utilized in North America, coincident with our "rise" in the world. Perhaps there is a grand new resource in the rainforest areas of South America - but either we continue to produce exponentially more food, or stop producing exponentially less people.

I believe the math to be really compelling on that.

"limiting population".
Make that 'limiting copulation'.
That'll go over well with the polygamist set...

but either we continue to produce exponentially more food, or stop producing exponentially less people.

I don't understand that comment. Please explain.

Jack - here is the first of a set of thought-provoking clips from a lecture detailing the impact of exponential population growth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY

If we have a 5% growth rate in population every year, the population will double in 14 years. There would of course have to be the necessary fuel and food for this increased population to avert civil strife.

(Unless of course you have decreased production of people, or increased destruction through disease, war, famine, etc.)

No hidden agenda - it's just pure math :-)

Nothing from the UN surprises me but I am surprised to see the number of people here who buy into another old scam - the population bomb. There is not a single country in the developed world with enough births to sustain its population. These populations are all ageing, dying off and not replacing themselves. This is the justification used to open wide the doors to large numbers of immigrants (except Japan) and due to a lack of proper selection and screening of immigrants we are finding that this causes more problems than it fixes. In poorer areas where population growth exists, it still is not all it is cut out to be, since they also have a much lower survival rate.

Anyway I am old enough to remember the population bomb myth which is just one more from the same camp as the global warming myth and many others.

Nearly all the genius, inventions and discoveries occurred before 1950 and that includes the electricity, the computer, television, the automobile, rocketry, nuclear energy not to mention the likes of Einstein and others. This all happened with far less than half of the population we presently have.

NOTHING NEW HAS BEEN INVENTED OR DISCOVERED SINCE

Jack | January 2, 2009 2:05 PM

What about the Internet?

Again !

[ It is not hard to understand how most of us form the impression that overpopulation is one of the world's most pressing problems. Turn on your television and you see asylum- seekers slipping across border fences, or throngs of youths throwing stones somewhere in the Middle East. We hear of child soldiers in Africa, the disappearing rainforests of Brazil and melting polar ice caps -- all caused by a human population that has nearly doubled in the past 40 years. We shake our heads when we read that, every year, the earth gains another 75 million human beings while losing approximately 27,000 plant or animal species.

Yet, beneath the surface of events, something else is happening. Though world population is still rising, it is doing so at barely half the rate of the late 1960s, and is now heading, many demographers believe, for absolute decline. The United Nations Population Division estimates that the number of infants and toddlers in the world (ages 0-4) will begin to contract within little more than ten years. The number of children under 15 will begin to decrease in little more than 20 years. This means, strange as it may sound, that all subsequent population growth will be due to increases in the numbers who survive to older ages. By 2050, there will be 35 million fewer children in the world than today, and 1.2 billion more people aged over 60. ] American Foundation

Yet, the looney Latte Liberals try to keep on a panicking us with predictions of gloom - as Kate's post shows. But the real story is different, partly because of,.. well the Liberated. (and don't get me wrong - I am not saying it is a bad thing. Just pointing it out)

Again ! Two by Four over the head;

[ Why is this happening? The primary reason is a dramatic fall in birth rates that began in western Europe in the 1930s and is now spreading to every corner of the globe. Since the start of the 1970s, while fertility rates were falling by 27 per cent in the industrialised countries, they were plummeting by 46 per cent in what the UN terms "less developed nations". The average woman in the world now bears just 2.69 children, down from more than 4.48 in 1970. That change is sufficient to cause rapid ageing of the population, particularly in regions where fertility has fallen most dramatically, such as the Middle East. If fertility rates continue to fall, as nearly all demographers believe they will, global population decline becomes almost inevitable.]

Anything less than 2.1 and you have population decline - in absolute numbers. So much for Multhais. He hadn't heard of Judy Rebic.

And hence, the major plank in Kyotosim is taken away.

Mideast Fertility Rates Plunge: The Mideast Times

http://www.metimes.com/Editorial/2008/01/25/editorial_mideast_fertility_rates_plunge/6336/

Alain - I agree that the "population bomb" as originally posited was a bit of a canard - however North American society depends on population growth for its success - whether it's to sustain social security in the US and other integral aspects.

So, I believe that for our society to continue to function, we either need to produce our own replacements or "import people", and it seems as if we've more or less collectively decided to import them, saving ourselves the "work" of childrearing.

Many broad generalizations in my comment, but I hope you see the general core of the argument there.

Where is everyone getting this "cooling for the past 10 years" from? Please provide a link to a SCIENTIFIC PAPER...that means no news articles, no random websites. I've yet to read a SCIENTIFIC PAPER that shows evidence that shows this.

Limiting population, huh?

Screw you.

You take yourself out first my "enlightened better".

Flushing the 'pill' down the drain does not destroy estrogen, boys drink water...the 'control' is by making boys feminine and girls aggressive. If boys never become men then the world will be run by the aggressive, fanatical, frustrated females. The 'greenie thingie' is to make people passive - and drinking water is a direct route.

"The pill" was distributed to stop families from being such formidable institutions. My Grandmother had five children to take care of her when she went blind; she lived in her own house with two granddaughters until her kidneys gave out, she then moved to a seniors hospital where her family took care of all her needs except the kidney machine. No one took less than excellent care of my Grandmother - she was loved and valued and there would have been hell to pay for any nurse that failed to treat her with respect and gentleness. My Grandmother worked for her family all of her life: she was a midwife, an accountant for her farmer/rancher husband and brother-in-law, she took care of and fed and watered her children, her grandchildren and countless neighbours and hired men. Grandma ruled her house, her domain and no one questioned her. What happened to that arrangement? "The Pill" happened, creating a nation of small insecure families, pansy boys and unhappy, aggressive girls.

No wonder big pharma backs the Global Slavery group. It is in their interest to do so...another point to ponder...why does big pharma back 'smoking bans' because..the nic drugs are addictive and heated tobacco, when inhaled produces testosterone in men (not women though)..and we all wondered about the fanatical agenda of the smoke ban ers...I never trust anything the msm supports..like feeding cattle animal parts, using Monsanto (spelling?) wheat, force feeding animals and plants (and indirectly , people) steroids and hormones....just have a look at an old movie or look at some old photos..note the masculine/feminine features and figures of the young people in those days compared to today.

Jack – You don’t see “how over-populated many regions of the world are already”. You see how ill-governed/managed are those regions. The peasants of the under-populated rural areas of the world are not flooding into the megapolises to reduce population pressure but to enhance opportunity.

You don’t “see how many millions of people die annually from starvation and disease.” They die because they are prevented from achieving their potential, usually by some power-hungry bast@rd(s). The “unresolvable wars and major disputes … going on all the time” are NOT “usually over shortages of resources”, but derive from greed and short-term thinking.

“If I am wrong, and I don't think I am”…(You are)
“…it is still not a bad idea to limit population growth on a finite ball in space. Don't you think?"

There are at least two incorrect assumptions here: (1) that we are approaching a stage where we must limit growth. This has not been shown. The “carrying capacity” of this planet is immense, especially if used wisely. (2) That active intervention by top-down fiat (a la China) does good in the long run.

Take an economic analogy: people are a resource, so manage opportunity to overturn limits, rather than take a fearful, chicken-little-like “precautionary principle” attitude.

“NOTHING NEW HAS BEEN INVENTED OR DISCOVERED SINCE.”

This stupid rationalization to limit growth lies behind the precautionary principle itself. It is also a straw man argument, contingent on ones philosophical position. It is not true in the way you assert. You have merely grown blasé about the miracles that surround you. Not only are novel applications of the fundamental insights made in the last century accelerating, this is happening in both the usual incremental fashion, and in transformative ways. At the forefront, the nature of fundamental intellectual pursuit is shifting from reductionist to expansionist (holistic/complexity/systems).

Enough. It’s the new year. Be a little positive, will you?

"Topping the list was "limiting population"."

That of course who apply to who exactly? Since Western nations have below replacement fertility I'm assuming that's a statement aimed at developing nations high fertility.

Tenebris,

You call me stupid and tell me I am definitely wrong.

Pretty negative debate tactics. Then you tell me to be more positive.

One who is so positive of being right to the point of dismissing anyone else's points ends debate. From now on when I need to know anything for certain, I will simply consult with you.

Oh great wise one.

Be more civil in with your arguments. You can win friends that way.

I am never sure about speculative matters, but you are. That is a sign of psychopathy or at least over self-confindence. Perhaps you need to consult with someone yourself.

One last point. You state that large population needs to be better managed. Do you really think that is going to happen?

Jack said: "Nearly all the genius, inventions and discoveries occurred before 1950..."

Packet switching networks.
Solid State transistors.
Friction Stir Welding
foamed metal composites
carbon fiber laminations
hip replacements
viagra
computerized fuel injection
scramjet engines
high temperature metal ceramic composites
cell phones\
atom lasers from bose/Einstein condensates
Metal Storm computerized ignition guns

I can go on for days, Jack.

Tenebris at 3:39 PM

""""Take an economic analogy: people are a resource, so manage opportunity to overturn limits""""

How leftist of you using such an analogy:-)))))

actually your analogy defeats your point

when you reduce people to "resource" to be managed you effectively remove the reason for existance

Tenebris: Google Paul Desmarais and the Club of Rome. I couldn't find that he was a member, which doesn't mean he isn't, but his name kept coming up in connection with other one-world order organizations.

Something else that has gone unchallenged Jack, you assume a human-created governance of some description can control the human population on this planet.

How they going to do that?

War: Not a good method. Populations always go up after a war.

Tyranny: Not a good track record of success, they always burn out after a generation or so, and the population doesn't change much if at all. See China.

Democracy: Populations don't vote to reduce themselves.

Maybe population is like the weather: not something we can control at this point.

Tenebris, how do I know?

Besides Google, I'm also clairvoyant ... ;-)

Can we move the Africans to Nunavut and then colonize Africa?

I can go on for days, Jack.
Posted by: The Phantom at January 2, 2009 4:13 PM

Indeed. Jack's comment reminded me of that famously ridiculous quote, "everything that can be invented has been invented."

Very interesting thread here...I'm late to this party, but I'll throw a few things out here that I have not seen mentioned so far, such as the connection between John Holden and Paul Ehrlich.

In 1968, Ehrlich wrote one of the early "human extinction porn" genre books "The Population Bomb" and has over the years has produced the following gem quotes including:

"The battle to feed humanity is over. In the 1970s the world will undergo famines . . . hundreds of millions of people (including Americans) are going to starve to death." (Population Bomb 1968).

"By 1980 the United States would see its life expectancy drop to 42 because of pesticides, and by 1999 its population would drop to 22.6 million." (1969)

"Before 1985, mankind will enter a genuine age of scarcity . . . in which the accessible supplies of many key minerals will be facing depletion." (1976)

The last quote was later proven spectacularly incorrect in a famous bet with Business Professor Julian Simon (Wiki "Simon-Ehrlich_wager").

In 1980, Simon had Ehrlich choose five of several commodity metals. Ehrlich chose 5 metals: copper, chromium, nickel, tin, and tungsten. Simon bet that in 10 years, their prices would go down. Ehrlich bet they would go up. By September 1990, Ehrlich admitted he lost the bet and wrote a cheque to Simon.

And who helped Ehrlich pick the 5 supposedly "scarce" metals: John Holden

(Google "Flawed Science Advice for Obama?" for an interesting post in the NYT by John Tierney)

Some takeaways from this are:
- The human extinction crowd (Malthus, Ehrlich, Kunstler) have always been among us.
- They will always get way more press and recognition by making the most ridiculous and extreme statements.
- When their own money is on the table, these people usually lose.

Adding to the Phantom's list refuting Jack's "Nearly all the genius, inventions and discoveries occurred before 1950...":

- Fibre Optic Networks (and a significant driver in the substitution of Copper in communications networks)
- Norman Borlaug & the Green Revolution (Wiki Norman_Borlaug) which ultimately blew away Ehrlich's predictions by helping feed the world.

For all our flaws and all the challenges we continue to have, I'm with Julian Simon.

Don't bet against Humanity.

Typo...I should have typed "John Holdren" not "John Holden"

For those interested, a good Wired Magazine article on Julian Simon titled "The Doomslayer":
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/5.02/ffsimon_pr.html

Belated Happy New Year to all!

After reading all the comments on here. I figure its best to go into bulldozer futures.
Its why Islamic & Socialists get on so famously. They love death in all its forms. Exceptions being serial killers of course. They are natures little helpers in these mad minds.
Once they kill the normal population, the crazies will commence on each other. Both ideologies are dedicated to violence, with absolutism taken to levels of insanity.

What did bill Ayers say? Ahh yes, it would take 20 million Americans to die before the triumph of socialism. He though that low.
JMO

ooh ooh, LASERS!!! Not even theorized until 1958.

Jack, it isn't looking good for you dude.

nothing invented since the 50's?

how about painting and powering your house in a can? Wait a minute!..not quite there, yet.

I'm all for heavily curbing the Islamic Birth rate, as we in the West are already about to die off, we will be replaced by at least two generations of Muslims.

Um, not to put too fine a point on it, but I invented something new, ca. 1998, which you could look up at the USPTO if I was interested in mixing up my clients with blog comments, but I'm not. Oh by the way, my company uses my invention to make a product that is very good for the environment.

I was about to contradict the claim that nothing new has been invented since 1950, but I'm having second thoughts.

I "invented" a new contraption for my little niche in the oilpatch. I thought about applying for a patent, but then realized all I'd done was take existing technology, and designed a new system to operate it.

When you put a lot of new inventions under a microscope, you'll realize they're just new designs. Some of them are very ingenious, but are still based on existing inventions or ideas.

Once we had the wheel, the storage battery, alternating current, the jet engine, the rocket engine, radio waves, microwaves, the internal combustion engine, the steam engine, the telephone, antibiotics, immunization, the record player, magnetic information storage, gunpowder, dynamite, nuclear fission, and the flush toilet, pretty well everything after that is basically just improvements.

All inventions have stood on the shoulders of previous inventions; that taints no invention. Mendel's pea genetics stood on the shoulders of arithmetic. Otherwise, there would only be one invention, Aristotle's Organon, from which all else has followed logically ;-)

dp, have a look at my blog. Somebody makes a new, groundbreaking discovery or invention about once a week. Innovation and discovery is not in decline, its accelerating. What's currently in decline is socialism and abuse of debt.

Yes, the only MEN in the world are the Jack Layton’s of the world.

Manly, hipp, and metro-sexual – you know gay in look and manner but quite possibly not?

Real men in the classical sense stink like a locker room (oh phewee). They are nothing but Knuckle dragging red necks without a brain in their head! If you can’t name three different ways to make a latte’ and know when to squeeze your legs together when you fart, YOUR ONE OF THEM!

Yea, great friggin world we live in folks………….

Good artists copy. Great artists steal.

- Picasso

Deeznuts,
Here is a chart of the published HADCRUT data for the past thirty years. If you don't like the name of the web site, there are plenty of links around the web to allow you to download and graph it yourself.
vhttp://www.junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/HadCRUG.html

BTW, here is a confirming type freebie that the oceans have been cooling for the past five years, which is the extent of the measurement

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88520025

they can all start farming in the artic.

Here's some great population idea's.
Giving society cheap, abundant energy would be the
equivalent of giving an idiot child a machine gun."
- Prof Paul Ehrlich, Stanford University
My three main goals would be to reduce human population to
about 100 million worldwide, destroy the industrial infrastructure
and see wilderness, with it’s full complement of species,
returning throughout the world."
-Dave Foreman,The Earth has cancer
and the cancer is Man."
- Club of Rome,
Mankind at the Turning Point

Here's one from our own One World Order Mo Strong.
"Current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the
affluent middle class - involving high meat intake,
use of fossil fuels, appliances, air-conditioning,
and suburban housing - are not sustainable."
- Maurice Strong,
Rio Earth Summit

I am a "Muddlist"

Here is the Muddlist Manifesto:

Utopians should be shot. If a utopian has a scheme which obviously can only be achieved after world conquest, e.g. world population control, where the war for control is a feature, not a bug, they should be shot "on sight", or flailed to death with primative agricultural instruments, or defenestrated or dispatched in the quickest way possible with the resources at hand.

Decisions should be made based on well known principles which are widely understood to be generally correct, practical, and over knowable time horizons (nobody knows what thirty years from now will be like).

Tim: The graph doesn't show a cooling over the past 10 years...possibly over the past 5 years a slight "cooling"...however temperatures are still above the mean. No where did you give a link to a SCIENTIFIC PAPER. I don't want some random website...that's the problem with the way most people conduct their "research". They don't use primary sources.