As noted elsewhere . . .. what will my fridge for cooling power do when my car is not at home ?

My God that's foolish. I love the silence from the environmentalists on they union bailouts (thats what auto bailouts really are). If it were "big oil" they would marching in the streets.

So lending the storage unit [family car] to Junior on a Friday night means Mom & Dad get a chance to have a lukewarm bath by candlelight? Then perhaps watch a movie on the laptop until the battery runs out? Think of the possibilities.

If the lefties want to stop global warming, I would think they would be thrilled to get the Big 3 SUV gas guzzlers off the road and this is a perfect way to stop anymore production. But alas they won't as Big Union is at stake and there is no such thing as AGW. Looks like they shall offer the ram of pride instead of Big Union.

My cousin, 150 pounds overweight, used to work at GM. I think he was a shop steward of some kind, which means (I think) that he spent lots of time at company expense making sure that employees got as much money as possible for as little work as possible. He voted for Obama and tried to get me to do likewise.

I got an email from him today. He wants me to write my congressman in support of a bailout for US automakers.

So glad to see that belief in perpetual motion hasn't died. I don't suppose this non-moose hunting, urbane, erudite, Democrat governor stopped to ask for one second whence cometh the energy to charge this miracle battery? Perhaps the Obamessiah has found ways to suspend the laws of thermodynamics?

"your plug-in electric vehicle"... Where do you plug it in, at home? Isn't your home is powered from your vehicle?

I'm confused.

A brand new source of energy, named 'Hope', has been discovered, and will change everything.

She's a Canadian from the left coast. That might have something to do with it.

"I don't suppose this non-moose hunting, urbane, erudite, Democrat governor stopped to ask for one second whence cometh the energy to charge this miracle battery?"

That's easy! Mr Fusion! Duh!

harry: you plug it in at work, obviously. Make the company pay!

Yeah, by all means lets bail them out.
April 18, 2006

"Lifestyle drugs -- chiefly Viagra -- are costing General Motors $17 million dollars a year and the cost is passed along to car, truck and SUV consumers. The blue pill is covered under GM's labor agreement with United Auto Workers, as well as benefit plans for salaried employees"

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/04/gm_viagra.html

Edward Teach,
Thanks. Silly me! I'm so old school.

My mind, my miiiiiind!

"Your home, your car, your appliances can all be powered through the advanced battery that will sit inside your plug-in electric vehicle."

And what charges the G.D. battery, a shiny new Mr. Fusion? Do I get a flux capacitor too? How about a frickin' flying Delorean while we're at it?

CLUE BAT!!!! WITH NAILS!!!!! HIT THEM!!!!!!!!

Heh. No bailout for the automakers. I get it.

Will you support the end of farm subsidies, too? Or will it hit too close to home?

Edward, you said Mr. Fusion before me. Heck be upon you!

Perpetual motion (coming soon), super batteries (soon too), renewable power (on the horizon).

It all makes sense when one considers the Popular Science Magazine strewn Arts' Lounges.

Fuel Cells ?

Ballard Power - down 97% !! the last 9 years.

BTW, what happened to Tony-the-electric-vehicle-Guitar ?

Maybe the heading should be A Chrysler In Every Crackpot.

That's the problem when you get these politically motivated talking heads speaking about our problems, they put out such outlandish claims that would never work.

Yep, as always, nobody thinks of what goes on "upstream" to produce electricity. Rough memory serves me poorly, but I think Alberta is 75% coal, Ontario 80% nuclear, Quebec 80% hydro.

I want one of these babies for my backyard:

http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-toshiba-micro-nuclear-12.17b.html

"Lifestyle drugs -- chiefly Viagra -- are costing General Motors $17 million dollars a year and the cost is passed along to car, truck and SUV consumers. The blue pill is covered under GM's labor agreement with United Auto Workers, as well as benefit plans for salaried employees"

What...they need Viagra to help them F*** the dog?!?

Science fiction energy policy. Coming soon to a White House near you.

That one line sums up the whole kit & caboodle of the tenor of this coming administration.

what if your house is an RV?, never mind

Fuel cells were supposed to be 10 yr away 10 yr ago, and are still 10 yr away, for the average buyer. Conversion to hydrogen, via internal combustion, costs ~50K(hummer), and you lose your trunk--the tank costs 5k.
Maybe if they concentrated on econosize cars, with solar collector plugins, they might reach market for the frugal buyer. Otherwise it's all show, while Arnold converts his hummer and laughs at the gays, to the voting box.

Toshiba has small nuclear reactors - they produce electricity at 5 cents per kilowatt hour, half the current going rate. The reactor is buried 100 feet below ground, and the building overlying measures 72x53x36 feet.

I can generate 10 megawatts of power, theoretically enough to power 30K homes.

Very cool idea . . . . . .

Somebody, someday, will come up with some new energy gizmo - probably on their own dime.

Meanwhile, we have to endure the Intellectuals' dumb ideas - on our dime.

Yeah the idea of distributed modular power is an interesting one...I'd love to see some cost comparisons between upgrading our current energy grid to handle more renewable energy sources and to be far more efficient than it currently is versus having a distributed power system (decentralizing power generation into system such as those mentioned by Erik).

However, the grid needs to get a thorough upgrade eventually anyway, so I don't like the idea of creating a poor temporary fix like that.

bar_jebus - good point - I hadn't really given too much thought about the grid issues - I suppose these modular solutions makes more sense for extremely isolated communities (such as the Toshiba pilot project in Alaska).

I'd be interested to know if these small nuclear power statiosn could potentially supplement the grid, and whether that is a sensible and viable option etc.

Apparently the Russians built a floating offshore nuclear reactor. They pretty much loaded a portable reactor onto a large barge and anchored it off the coast in the northern regions and ran power cables to the shore to power isolated communities. I'm guessing the reason for this was that building a reactor out there would be expensive, but I'm not sure why it would need to remain mobile. Perhaps for mining, drilling, exploration out there where there is temporary need for power?

Regardless, that governor is daft.

floating nukes provide their own containment vessel.

running around with batteries in cars as a supplement to the grid is pure idiocy. batteries and the conversion from AC to DC and back to AC is inefficient. with 10% losses both ways and 30% losses on the lines. heaving electrons back and forth at near the speed of light is surprisingly inefficient.

"What...they need Viagra to help them F*** the dog?!?"

EDward Teach, you're cookin' with fusion today!

Let me play Devil's Advocate. Detroit is working on developing new batteries to run cars. These batteries could be used to run your home also.

The problem I see with this line of reasoning is why are utility companies working on developing these batteries also? We don't need a car company for this.

The other problem, of course, is what do you do with the battery once it burns out? A recharging station? This is a solution looking for a problem. Batteries are mobile power sources. Homes aren't mobile.

And yes, I saw the fule cell references. Once heavy trucks (Mack, etc.) start using them, or taxi fleets or buses in metro areas (NYC, Toronto, etc.), I might believe that they'll catch on. But as it stands, they're a novelty act.

And they spew green house gases (water vapor) at a prodigious rate.

Not difficult to imagine that you could drive to work, set a multilayered solar cell on your car, and charge enough to drive back, and more. For houses, forget about it for the next Einey.

T'is a great example of those who do not kno of what they speak, trying to tell us how the problems they kno nothing about will be solved with technology they can't comprehend

electric cars have been around for over a 100 years, and are still running on empty

hydrogen cells (batteries) have one large problemo, they are either on 100% or off, no happy in between, tho some progress has been made in this area, not enough for a marketable product

guess it's time I went out and invented the 1000 mile long extension cord, so we can keep the house plugged in:-))))

True, the conversion is quite terrible felis corpulentis, but if its in your home, it won't be going across the grid, which is exactly the point. You wouldn't have a 10 - 30% loss from having to use our poor antiquated energy grid, or at the very most it would be for a very short distance I suppose.

The biggest problem with Hydrogen is that electrolysis is stupidly inefficient. The only future I see for that technology is if they can use bacteria to generate hydrogen as a byproduct of eating organic materials (which is currently being developed by various universities). With electrolysis, you're generating the power from some kind of fossil fuel for the most part (at least 90% of our power comes from non-renewables) and you're only getting 30 - 50% efficiency there. Then you're using it to break apart water molecules which is a is only about 50 - 70% efficient, and you're looking at 15 - 30% efficiency.

@Half Canadian

Hydrogen emisions aren't a worry. In fact gasoline emissions are about half water vapour, half carbon (16 parts water, 18 parts carbon). Obviously hydrogen fuel cells would create more vapour, but it can quickly dissipate whilst carbon stays in the atmosphere for a far longer time (relatively) than water vapour. There are quite a few experimental bus fleets out there that run on hydrogen, but I've never heard of any mass adoptions, which sort of tells you something about the tech :S

The largest cost for fuel cells are the membrane (around 40%) and as newer ones are invented and created, the efficiency and cost will drop dramatically as it does with every new tech out there. I believe that the two major hurdles for fuel cells is the creation of cheap hydrogen, and the cost of the fuel cells themselves (as well as the lifetime of the membranes).

Bailout 101

Panic the politicians into approving huge "loans".

Take the money and go through the motions.

Once money is consumed by project work go bust.

Default on loans,get pols to pay all pensions.

Start over with no debt, modern factories, young workers, and mega-rific stock options for auto execs and their friends in the "consultant" game.

Taxpayers share? Paying off the busted debt.

Goretex.
Tho platinum covers most of a fuel cells cost..for now.

I think she meant to say: "How?" Your car will soon be your house!" Solves the housing and auto markets all at once.

Just wait until a year or two, when all those Priuses and Volts, and other cars with lots of batteries, have to replace their batteries. Imagine the complaints. "What, I have to pay another $15,000 for this already expensive car?".

Yes, you will. And you will need to do that every 100,000 miles.

The enviromentalists have been less than honest; it is Detroit, that refused to build this junk, that has been looking after your interests. Now, they will be forced to build this crap by the O-team.... at your expense.

John Luft at November 14, 2008 3:31 PM

You state that Vagra is covered by the GM health plan.

How about the other half of the equation, essential for personal well-being, the professional woman's fee?

I'm pleased to see that there is a popular revolt against an auto sector bailout. Hopefully it won't go through, but you know it will.

Why is an auto sector bailout unacceptable after basically bailing out every bank and insurance Co. under the sun?

Listen to yourselves targeting the union workers while the multi-bazillion dollar CEO's whisk off to their private Cayman Island villas for caviar and champagne to celebrate their big bailout packages.

Who designs and approves these obviously inferior non-innovative, predictable big three products which nobody wants to buy? Union members or board members?

The imports have the added advantage of not carrying large numbers of pensioners which the big three have as an ongoing burden.

The problem is at the top. Union workers from Canada in particular have won quality awards for their work, but let's pick on the overweight and the stereotypes and let the corporate types off the hook entirely. Sure. The Unions have dragged the big three down all by themselves.

Give me a break.

Why is an auto sector bailout unacceptable after basically bailing out every bank and insurance Co. under the sun?

Um...because the other bailouts were unacceptable as well?
Congress got it right the first time IMO.

Why is an auto sector bailout unacceptable after basically bailing out every bank and insurance Co. under the sun?
Listen to yourselves targeting the union workers while the multi-bazillion dollar CEO's whisk off to their private Cayman Island villas for caviar and champagne to celebrate their big bailout packages.

Indeed, indeed, not to mention the $5 billion plus going to freeloading, conservative voting farmers, year after year after trough swilling year. Of course, in the small dead mind, what's good for the right-wing goose don't mean shit for the hard working gander.

...you know, the Flintstones idea of propulsion is looking better every day.

It's all about the target audiance.

bar_jebus said on November 14, 2008 at 6:57 PM:

"The biggest problem with Hydrogen is that electrolysis is stupidly inefficient."

Where does electrolysis come into the equation?

Steam methane reforming is how the vast majority of H2 is produced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming

An industrial gas production/distribution facility I worked at 25 years ago in Scarborough had mothballed their electrolysis plant many years before I got there.

The biggest problem with hydrogen is it's extremely small molecule size, relatively low energy density and tendency to not play nice with containment vessels.

Paul, ex-Air Liquide

$73.00 an hour to bolt fenders onto Dodges and they want a bailout?
Sorry boys, you`ll have to take a massive pay cut instead.
I guess Buzz saw the writing on the wall and bailed.
And how does the economic argument work? We need to give the companies money so the employees can keep on buying DVD players and big screen tvs?
That will stimulate the economy?
But if I give them my money to buy a DVD player then I won't be able to buy one myself to stimulate the economy, will I?

Couple of things:

Erik: Just for the record, according to Ontario's Energy Ministry, we're just over 50% nuclear, 22% hydro, 16% coal, 6% natural gas, plus some wind and solar projects (totals don't add due to rounding).

re: Unions. The UAW has seen the writing on the wall, and they realize it ain't pretty. They have agreed to set up a 3rd party structure "VEBA" to handle health benefits for retired workers, and to a new contract in 2010 that results in new workers being hired at about half the current hourly costs (and about equal to what Toyota, Honda, and others pay their North American workers).

Total market size: Detroit still has capacity based on ~17 million new cars sold each year. That number is dropping, since (Detroit having been dragged kicking and screaming, to be sure) quality has improved to the point where people don't feel a need to replace their cars every three years. Add to that increasing inroads from Toyota and others, and most industry experts agree that Detroit needs to downsize to 11-12 million cars/year. Find me a politician of any party in Canada or the US with an auto plant or supplier in his/her riding who supports the closure of that plant.

History: I've read many snickering comments about the 1979 Chrysler bailout all over the web recently. It only takes a few moments of googling to find that 1) Chrysler received loan guarantees, not cash, 2) Chrysler repaid all the loans on time, 3) the US government actually made money on the deal, and 4) Chrysler was able to use the reprieve to develop the successful K and LH cars, and introduce the minivan to the world. Right now, GM is 12-14 months away from introducing the Volt, an electric car which will help reduce US dependence on foreign oil (and thus improve the US current account and trade deficits), reduce emissions and thus cut down on smog, and provide jobs for both the Big 3 and their many suppliers. I don't have a problem with loaning them money to get there, so long as executive compensation is restrained until the loans are paid back.

Finally, fairness. Lehman, Merrill, AIG, etc. all got into trouble by their own actions, with a big push from government meddling in the mortgage market (I blame the Democrats and the Republicans; I'm an equal opportunity hater!). Now that credit markets are almost frozen, Detroit finds itself, through no fault of its own, unable to sell cars today that it was able to sell last year (the Big 3 still have almost 60% market share). Why should the investment banks get bailouts, and the carmakers get bankruptcy?

In sum: loans, not giveaways; no big executive bonuses (in fact, upper management salaries should be tied to a multiple of assembly line wages until loans are repaid); union flexibility as a pre-requisite; and finally, an end to ridiculous corn-based ethanol subsidies (use that money to help fund the loans).

Yall missing the signals here! Of course you will have all your appliances working of your car battery because yall will be living in your car damit.

Stan, $73 per hour is not the wage being paid to each worker. That includes the benefits and the pensioners who are also being paid by ongoing operations. That figure is meaningless without an output attached. How many cars per day are these workers producing? You have no way of knowing that, so complaining about how much the workers make is groundless.

What is a fair wage for these guys? $5 an hour? Would you then trust their vehicles above 5kph?

Should they not be able to afford the things you take for granted in your own life? Henry Ford started the assembly line and quickly recognized how important it was for the workers to be able to afford to buy a car themselves.

Unfortunately there are plenty of unscrupulous employers more than willing to exploit their workforce in order to fatten their own bank accounts. Unions are still needed to protect honest and hard working people, who in some cases belong to a Union.

The economic argument seems to be that we need to save these jobs because of the manufacturing jobs, and the number of spin-off jobs by Companies which manufacture the parts on the assembly lines.

I lived in Alliston, Ontario near the Honda plant in the late eighties, and the number of parts manufacturers supplying Honda absolutely exploded as the plant came on line. A sleepy farming community became a teeming hub of activity, and in ten years the town was completely renewed. The number of small businesses providing jobs and making parts for Honda went off the scale.

And the last I checked you can buy a DVD player for about $25. People on welfare have big screens, so why begrudge the shift worker?

Sorry Kevin, but $73.00 an hour is the total that is paid out in wages and benefits.
It's unsustainable.
So don't ask me to sustain for you.
Face the economic realities and take a wage cut or go bankrupt.
It's as simple as that.
You killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.
$73.00 for unskilled labor is not economically realistic.
And you don't understand the fallacy of the economic argument. If I have to give you money to bail you out, it's less money I have to spend myself and to stimulate the economy.
Or does money grow on trees?
Your argument is that I should give you money so you can buy a DVD player and that's good because it simulates the economy.
But you forget to factor in that I will be buying one less DVD player, so it's a wash.
If you want to retain those spin off jobs, take a pay cut.
Because asking me to pay more taxes to bail you out is effectively asking me to take a pay cut.
Is yours the only industry in Canada?
Every dollar you get in a bailout has to come from somewhere, and that will damage whoever has to give it to you.
Or didn't you think it through?
You want to save your job?
Take a pay cut.
Don't ask me to take one when the average Canadian makes far less than you do.
You and your CAW pensioner buddies will have to face the harsh reality that your greed helped destroy your industry.
It's your fault, you take the pain.

I have never been an auto worker Stan, but I have seen data showing the surprisingly small component that wages add to the price of a car. Honda and Toyota products are more expensive than big three products, yet their wages are half what the big three pay out. There must be some explanation why the big three aren't charging more at the dealerships.

We aren't bailing out the workers, we're bailing out the company. If you choose to not bail out the company, then prepare to pay more taxes to pay the unemployment, retraining and/or welfare costs for the thousands of displaced workers. What's your preference? But you're okay with bailing out the banks then?

Blame the Union if you must, but it's management who has made the poor decisions. How about knocking a couple of million out of executive compensation first before touching the workers? Poor management, lack of innovation, and poor product design is killing the golden goose since the workers can only build what the engineers and executives decide on.

Will you be happy when all manufacturing leaves north America for good and everyone here is out of work? Isn't it greed that's sending manufacturing offshore, in that never ending quest for increased profit? The auto industry isn't the only industry, but there isn't much else left. Or hadn't you noticed?

Of course the Union is guilty of unrealistic increases over the years, but executives are completely justified in showering themselves in perks and shamelessly huge bonuses regardless of performance. There's plenty of blame to go around, but the least guilty here is the little guy. Let him have his $25 made in China DVD player.

It's not my fault, but I know the pain is coming for all of us. We can bicker all we like about who is to blame, but we're all going to see trouble from this no matter what your station in life.

"$73.00 for unskilled labor is not economically realistic."
...

"Take a pay cut. Don't ask me to take one when the average Canadian makes far less than you do."

Maybe unemployed auto workers could start to earn $200/hour as photographers like one of our lefty posters here.

i want my free lunch. where's my free lunch?

Drake;I am glad that you mentioned farm subsidies.I hope you mean the subsidies that keep Quebec in Canada and give Ontario farmers a fortune for their land.If you mean the subsidies that Western Canadian farmers get then let me tell you there has been a revolution in farming in the west.No-till,monstrous seeding machines,thousands of acres farmed by two or three guys all of the same family.If the auto industry had gone thru the same changes then whole factories would be manned by a few workers.Cars would cost the same as they did twenty years ago as that is the price that we get for our commodities.When I hear of auto workers having to get a second job to make ends meet then I will have some sympathy for them but not when they can retire from a good paying job(that they didnt have to buy),sell nothing and still live handsomely on a pension that I have to pay for.

Fair comment:

She's a f**king idiot.

Taxes up. If things go titties up?

The "automotive" workers will get first crack at new jobs.

NO NEED to actually be QUALIFIED for the position. Jenny-poo will save you!!!

...and she's an "advisor" to Obama?

My friends in Michigan keep reminding me she's "Canadian". I keep saying "No, she's a frickin' Marxist! There IS a difference."

Oh...as for any automotive bailout?

HELL no. That's a step in the direction of nationalization of the automotive industry.

You can have either a Trabant or a Lada in any colour you want. As long as it's Red.

"You can have either a Trabant or a Lada in any colour you want. As long as it's Red."

Everyone out of work could then take training to become a mechanic, and there would be full employment keeping those commie cars running...

so there is an upside to this thing!

It's not the first time. Didn't Reagan guarantee GM 800,000.000.00 in loans in the 80's?