I wonder what response a freedom of information request would garner?

Yes, the fact that one has to pay for Stats Canada info always bothered me given that they are funded out of taxpayer dollars.

But I think the info is valuable to marketing companies etc. so perhaps that's why they charge.

Don't know the answer.

Simply make figures up. If Some twerp from Statscan or some other socialist outfit argues with you, defy them to produce the data. Presto, instant, and totally free data! Otherwise if they don't put up, tell 'em to shut up abd keeo making up figures. That's the way to deal with socialists that is far more humane...

I would have liked to have seen your charts. Probably because I have not seen charts like that very often. Probably because people have to pay for the data.

It gets worse. I've been in business for over 10 years. I get a never-ending stream of demands (not requests, I'm legally bound to respond) to complete surveys for Stats Canada. And these aren't simple things to respond to. They want all kinds of breakdowns of percentages of your business focused on this or that area. Stuff that can take hours working with an accountant to figure out.

A few years ago, after receiving an unusually long and cruel survey to complete, I decided to ignore it and see what happened. They started calling. When I finally answered their call, I complained about the heavy cost they were having on my business in time and accounting fees. I told them that I expected to receive a copy of the results of the statistics gathering at least. They informed me that, no, I would have to pay for them like everyone else. I almost went through the phone on the guy. Appalling that I have to spend my time and money to complete this crap, and don't even get the thanks of receiving the results of my labour.

Since that time, I don't take too much time completing their surveys (if you know what I mean), so don't take too much stock in Stats Canada's data.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that has experienced this.

If the information is available immediately from a database, that information should be freely available upon request. Collecting the C$12. probably costs more than C$12. I think the computer may belong to a Union.

The solution to this problem is to eliminate stats Canada. I've been infuriated with this policy for years and have generally used US statistics because they are very readily available online. In the US the policy seems to be that the taxpayer has already paid for gathering the information so lets provide it to them for free. In Canada, even though taxpayers have paid for the information to be collected, it is not made freely available.

This issue hasn't been getting much publicity in Canada and I suspect that a few thousand letters to Conservative MP's about the non-availability of fundamental economic and other statistics in Canada might result in some action. Also, if people performing comparisons between various countries made a point of indicating that Canadian data was not freely available it might help.

SC, what I've done in situations like this is to provide the information in some obscure format such as octal representations of EBCDIC characters of the Ukrainian language answers. When I've been called I simply point out that the instructions did not specify what language or format I was to answer in and that my answers are therefore valid and it is up to them to figure out what I've done. Never had a problem afterwards.

I think people are forgetting that all the taxpayers pay for the collection of statistics but only a few people want the information. Wanting the results for free is simply greed, trying to get what other people paid for.

loki / sc -- good one eh! loki, tell them for $50.00 Canadian, you'll translate

"Wanting the results for free is simply greed, trying to get what other people paid for." posted by Jim Pettit

You were educated by the BCTF were you Jim?

Captain,

Statscan is one of the best stats keepers in the world. I don't think it's a bad thing for people to pay for quality data.

Here's a letter I sent to the StatsCan folk. (The argument it benefits a few is BS. It benefits everybody in Canada to have not only efficient BUT INFORMED markets)

Hello,

I'm an economist in the US and was starting to conduct a study on the Canad=
ian economy and naturally found Statistics Canada.

I noticed I have to pay for your statistics and the short question I have;

Are you freaking kidding me?

I'm not a Canadian citizen, but I am an economist, and you should be ashame=
d of yourselves for daring to charge for such information.

1.=A0 You are a government entity and the taxpayers have already paid to co=
mpile these statistics. They should therefore be made available to the publ=
ic for free.

2.=A0 The statistics are vital for not only government bureaucrats, but the=
private sector not to mention the financial markets.=A0 If you ever wish t=
o attract capital and investment, let alone have the financial markets accu=
rately represent prices, these data should be made public for free.

3.=A0 You data is most likely corrupted.=A0 I present the following link wh=
ich shows your "mandatory surveys" are so onerous they're starting to lie t=
o you for the sake of efficiency.=A0 You'd also do well to read through all=
the comments.

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/009824.html

4.=A0 The idea of putting a hurdle between the public and data about their =
DEMOCRATIC government is unethical, if not, undemocratic, even dictatorial.=
=A0 You should be ashamed of this petty extortion.

Regardless, it behooves the question can the Canadian government do somethi=
ng as simple as provide basic economic statistics?=A0 And since you cannot,=
what are the real costs to the Canadian population for such incompetence?

I'm curious where the ranking of stats keepers in the world comes from? Can you back this up or is it one of those Canadian/nice things to say like "Dion was too honest for his own good" or "voting is a sacred duty" to use a couple of recent ones?

There are multiple comments already above describing withholding/giving bad information.

I don't know about quality data, I always fill them out as a visible minority with a disability writing with my left hand like a 4 year old....... make my company wildly profitable too.

My vain hope being they might back off on the next social program.

Frankly, the arrogance of StatsCan is revolting.

Many years past, I was the neighbor to a woman studying social work at the University of Regina. I recall her asking me for help in gathering information regarding some women's issues. I sent a request to the Status of Women group in Ottawa, and received almost a cubic foot of printed information for use in my neighbor's indoctrination at the U of R. I'm certain she passed the class.

It took years for me to figure out what exactly the S.O.W. was up to, I wasn't really political in my youth...

So I looked today, at their publications, it seems there is still no change there. We can access this information either on line in html or pdf or request for some to be delivered by Canada Post... but there's no mention of payment. either for posters for your home office (I assume these are rolled up 24 x 36 or similar) nor for printed propaganda.

It's all free when you jump on their bandwagon.

Captain,

I believe the official reason was cost recovery implemented under a Chretien government?

One nifty side effect for the liberal elites is that educational institutions and think tanks, almost exclusively with a liberal bias, get access while stay-at-home researchers can't afford to cough up the cash.

Coincidence?

There is a legacy going back to when the former Liberals took over a financial structure that was define by the previous PCs. This structure left no free cash for the libs to suck up, and made million dollar election bribes difficult without adding more taxes. As most know, this led to off-loading costs onto Provinces, Cities and Municipalities, and charges for stats, weather reports and a whole host of other government reports, airport landing fees etc.

While I have no specifics, it is my understanding that in a true 'Tragedy of the Commons' fashion, the system was being abused. Rather than a newspaper or TV station pulling data once, they had each reporter pull it over and over for every story. We then had 'Think Tank' types pulling data, putting on a bit of lipstick and selling it to large Corporations for a fat profit. One of these was a former economist from Stats Can I happened to know personally.

From my perspective, I doubt Von Mises would have much problem with user fees if the costs are kept down that way. I'd like to see the Stats Can budget lines. (Those are public record).

Ian

Incidentally, request the date from your MP's office, he gets it free too.

I think the reason they charge is because people like me use the data all the time for business purposes. I don't really have a problem with charging business users for the stats. I think it would be nice to have a free consumer version though.

Statscan is one of the best stats keepers in the world. I don't think it's a bad thing for people to pay for quality data.

Maybe not, but then perhaps StatsCan should also pay a little something for the data they are collecting. At the very least, I don't think it is unreasonable to provide the stats back to the very people that have helped in their efforts to collect them.

I suspect there are a ton of people, who like David, don't exactly give the questionnaires their fullest attention.

You get what you pay for, or don't, in this instance.

They give most of their data away for free. It's custom stuff they charge for. Talk to the Fraser Institute about the quality of data at Statscan. It's good stuff.

for the kind of health info you are looking for, you might look at CIHI -- Canadian institute for health information I think it is.

Hold it!!! Isn't our "health care"free? Ergo,any info about it should also be free.If they are charging for the info,then isn't that two-tier???
And yes. Myself and my better half recieved a "request" from Stats Can regarding our business,employees,employment,etc.Called up their rep here in Edmonchuck,and told her in no uncertain terms to stuff it. I have not,and will not,give them one iota of info. She threatened jail. What a hoot. Told her,hey,go to Revenue Canada. They have all the info.Funny. Haven't heard a peep since.
Stalin would be proud of our commie beauracracy.

What can they do if you don't fill out their survey for Stats Canada survey?.

Never ever fill anything out the Government sends you, ever. Fill out just one and your name seems to go on a mailing list and departments you have never heard of will be sending you questionnaire that have to be filled out "by law'.

Return them, WRONG ADDRESS, and save yourself no end of problems and wasted time. I say this after 45 years as a business owner.

As a small business owner I can attest to the fact that Stats Can is only typically arrogant, intransigent, arrogant and omnipotent when it comes to resource / time sucking government agencies. The CLEAR winner on ALL those counts would be Canadian Revenue Agency.

None of these government employees have ever worked a day in their lives. For many English is obviously a third or fourth language. Intimidation is common and in the case of the CRA minor paper pushers can freeze business bank accounts and steal all your money in only a few hours over an allegation only. Cops trying to seize the assets of convicted felons take YEARS ... forensic audits, multiple convictions, petitions to the courts, appeals and then it rarely happens anyway. If they had the powers of some minor bureaucrat in the CRA they could cripple crime in Canada but criminals have RIGHTS. Small businesses are too small to defend themselves in embarrassing court cases so they are easy fodder for the CRA's "quotas".

If you want something REALLY interesting to investigate and get some really interesting feedback, start a blog where business people can post stories of their encounters with Rev Canada. I can promise you, the horror stories out of STATS CAN will sound like a joke when you find out what the CRA does - every day.

"What can they do if you don't fill out their survey for Stats Canada survey?."

They threaten but ultimately they appear to do nothing. I "failed" to fill out the census. They sent some poor lady around who informed me I was going to get in a heap of trouble (if I had to guess it was a private citizen picking up some extra cash). I just smiled, thanked her for the information and politely closed the door.

Last I heard of it. That was two years ago. Bear in mind I was and remain willing to do time for the offense. I admired the farmers who went to jail for selling their own wheat, and though my effort pales by comparison, its the least I can do.

This: "I think people are forgetting that all the taxpayers pay for the collection of statistics but only a few people want the information. Wanting the results for free is simply greed, trying to get what other people paid for.

is either one of the funniest, most subtle bits of online sarcasm I've read in months, or it's a first-class "90 lb test with a Lucky Louie" troll.

Either way: bravo, sir!

Yes, Stats Can is supported by tax dollars, but it would need a lot more tax dollars if it didn't have some of these cost recovery activities. Also, most of the information is not being purchased by individuals, but by businesses, which are using this information to make a profit.

So Shawn. It's all right if I come over,and waste 2 weeks of your time,with no compensation? And then charge you for the info you gave me? Gawd. No wonder the socialist leeches are taking over this country. Try standing up for yourself sometime. You may find it enlighting.Oh and shawn,the union is ripping you off.Sucker.

Tomorrow, Monday, October 20th, I want to see and hear Stephane Dion proclaiming that he intends to hold on to the Liberal leadership to fight fight fight that "rightwing, neocon, climate change denier Stephen Harper who does not represent Canadian values".

65% of Canadians did not vote for Stephen Harper and the Conservatives, and that is a majority ... a MORAL MAJORITY !

I, Stephane Dion as Liberal leader, intend to lead that Moral Majority to stop Stephen Harper and his climate change deniers who would destroy Canada and the World.

I am on a mission of Truth and Hope and nothing can stop me, for I am still the Leader of the Liberal party, the party that I love and respect, and I love Canada too much to give up and quit.

I shall be the leader of the Moral Majority, and I want to unite all those who are opposed to Stephen Harper and the Conservative agenda. Join me in the fight against those who would make Canada unrecognizable and unlivable. I still have hope for a fairer, richer, greener Canada, and we must not abandon our mission to save Canada because the World is watching us.

Let us unite for we are the MORAL MAJORITY !!

I feel your pain but Harper cut StatCan's budget so they need your $12 now.

For anyone who doubts that Harper cut StatCan's budget, look it up. It's in the `07-08 federal budget. You can get that info for free; at least until Harper cuts their budget too.

And the more cuts the better Robert.

Small, tiny, miniscule govt is the goal!!!

Yes, you have to pay. That's the magic of Crown copyright, and a good illustration of why it is unconstitutional in the U.S.

Probably like the cost of FREE water:
1 Liter @ $5.00 where shipping, handling, equipment, labor, maintenance, etc,etc,etc cost $5.00 - but the water is free.

tuco @1:01 pm
Quite a few commenters have 'fessed up their messed up responses to StatCan surveys.
Do you still think it's 'quality data'?
Just asking.

"which are using this information to make a profit."

Oh my god, those bastards. Especially since all they do is pay taxes and provide resources to compile the information.

Outrageous!

you know the part of any government form that asks if you are disabled?
I wear corrective lenses... for my eyesight! I wouldn't want to mistakenly not report something to the government.

"which are using this information to make a profit."

Oh my god, those bastards. Especially since all they do is pay taxes and provide resources to compile the information.

Outrageous!

Posted by: RCGZ

The nerve of the buggers eh?

This type of info should only be available to special interest groups to justify their next grant I guess.

I have mixed feelings about this one. A lot of stats are in specialized areas of business that most Canadians do not use. If it is useful to collect such stats I think it is reasonable to ask users to pay. More general stats (population, poverty, etc. are freely available.

Stats Canada is a communist organization

whenever a poll or statistic is published and credited to Stats Canada I am immediately suspicious

Stats Canada's information is about as reliable as the CBC's or CTV's

as soon as they start shooting people in the head and throwing them out of cars on the 401 in Toronto
Stats Canada will release "data" telling us how crime is decreasing
they're always telling us how lucky we are to be Canadian

their "data" is deliberately misleading and deceptive

It seems to me that goofy Dion said, when criticising Harper when he suggested if he didn't win the party would replace him,that Harper was a quitter and that he, Dion, would NEVER quit.

Yet here we are getting ready for Dion to---wait for it---QUIT.

What a gutless, vitriolic, effemant, despicable, asshole. But he is a liberal, and an academic liberal at that so what can you expect.

He makes me want to vomit.

Horny Toad

User pays. Just like US health care.
Pay your $12 and you'll find out that we do alright: much less than what Americans do with taxes and insurance premiums. Plus our per-capita national debt is about 1/3 of yours, which means your so-called lower taxes are really a smoke-and-mirrors game as your country borrows to pay its bills instead of taxing to do so. In all of those years when Bush was running deficits, centrist Canadian governments have been running surpluses.
Come back with your $12 when America has something to show the world in terms of good government and well-managed finances.

"On December 21, 1997, Barack Obama wrote a short review of William Ayers’ book A Kind and Just Parent: The Children of Juvenile Court, which had recently been published by Beacon Press. Here’s a photo of how the review appeared in the Chicago Tribune:"

Sorry, Lori, but I think you are wrong. The serious polls (not the NBC/ABC,CBS bullshit polls intended to sway voters) have them close with Zogby having Obama up only 2 1/2% this morning (as opposed to 6 1/2 % a week ago)

As for SNL I have only ever watched it twice-last week when I though Palin might be on and yesterday. The program is LAME but I though Palin handled it quite well.

Horny Toad

Missed it by one thread.......

Almost Maxwell Smart worthy ;)

Time for our own Boston Tea Party against the Family Compact known as the Power Corp, or our King George, Mo Strong? With his frozen eyed Marxist Chinese, with other dogmatists of the cult of death.
Canada the land of the gouged. The Nation of victims. Country of mooches living off the productive.
Ottawa being the biggest con of all.
From banks to beer where nickeled & dimed for the faux poor (drunks, drug addicts, gamblers or rich welfare Companies.
Can't let the public actually get a head of the 3 levels of government swag, its not Canadian!
Triple taxes for all.

JMO

"Nothing like keeping vital information that would empirically disprove socialism away from the population."

Awwww, the poor little capitalist has to pay for information!

Signed,

Fellow Capitalist

"I wonder what response a freedom of information request would garner?"

1. It would take longer.
2. It would cost more (they're allowed to charge reasonable administrative fees to cover the costs of searching for and proving the information).

Are you one of those right-wingers who think downloading songs for free is cool?

Signed,

Fellow Right-Winger

Do what I do. Copy down the document number, proceed to local library and ask the the folks there for relevant document. Copy down down info you need: cost - zip. Mind you if you want to photocopy the info the library will likely charge for. At least the library has an excuse for charging you as they have to paper, copier toner, etc to pay for.

the last census was what, 2006?

I wound up in district 0666

told them if they thought I was going to comply with a gubbamint stats sweep with THAT (rev 13:8) number attached to it they were friggin nutso.

I expected stern warnings about, and in fact looked forward, to legal consequences.

didnt happen.

so y'all going to have to adjust the figures a tad !!!

p.s. I still got a ph'copy of the form as a souvenir. with my most impolite comments all over it.

Captain, I share your reaction to having to pay twice for information from the bureaucracy.

The Fraser Institute studies everything Canadian and their stats are reliable. Maybe they have some of this info.

Regards

www.fraserinstitute.org/

You all need to stop looking for boogey-men behind every door. I visited the CIHI website (which is federally funded) and in about 3 minutes, found this:

http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/en/downloads/Dir_Wint06_ENG.pdf

All free of charge. The data is from 2005 but probably with a bit more work, I could have found a more current report. I believe CIHI reports annually on health care expenditures as a percentage of GDP although they don't compare to other countries (as in the above link).

BTW, the title of your post is "I have to pay for Canadian budget statistics". Health care is a provincial responsibility (except First Nations and a few other groups), therefore no "Canadian" budget figure exists without some effort at compiling all provincial expenditures...as CIHI has done, referened in my previous post.

tis barmy. I ran into this wall last week an organization I pay over 1/2 my income in taxes in part to support them and they want more before they give you any good information.

But you get to pay their pension plan.

What a collection of utter rubbish in this thread. Let's start here.

Loki: "The solution to this problem is to eliminate stats Canada"

And substitute what for it? Or would you rather be entirely ignorant of the raw data pertaining to economic and industrial activity in Canada, to name just two indispensables? Fine, you can access US data for free. What does that tell you about Canada? Zilch.

Next, bcf: "Simply make figures up. If Some twerp from Statscan or some other socialist outfit argues with you, defy them to produce the data."

Am I to presume that all of your statements are on this basis, namely making things up? StatsCan isn't in the business of advocating public policy positions, so they won't argue with you about any sort of tripe you make up, unless you falsely attribute it to them.

Next, RCGZ: "My vain hope being they might back off on the next social program."

StatsCan is not a social program; they collect the data that government agencies tell them to collect. This comment is about as dumb as blaming the trashcan as being responsible for creating trash.

Next, Tuco: "They give most of their data away for free. It's custom stuff they charge for. Talk to the Fraser Institute about the quality of data at Statscan. It's good stuff.

Heh. Go look at their publications page. The policy stuff is free. Anything with hard data in it is not.

Next, Robert McClelland: "I feel your pain but Harper cut StatCan's budget so they need your $12 now.

For anyone who doubts that Harper cut StatCan's budget, look it up. It's in the `07-08 federal budget. You can get that info for free; at least until Harper cuts their budget too."

All government agencies providing services have been required to implement cost recovery for more than 20 years. Don't bore me by pretending that this is something new attributable to the current government. Some agencies are on 100 per cent cost recovery.

One thoroughly sensible comment, TJ: "Yes, the fact that one has to pay for Stats Canada info always bothered me given that they are funded out of taxpayer dollars.

But I think the info is valuable to marketing companies etc. so perhaps that's why they charge.

Don't know the answer."

Cost recovery for federal services started as a recommendation of the Neilsen task force during the first Mulroney administration. The Deputy PM and his group looked at all government agencies to determine the overall scope of Canadian federal regulation, and which agencies and regulations functioned for the interest of all Canadians and which provided specific benefits. The task force determined that there was some public benefit to things like StatsCan but also some individual benefit for those directly accessing it, so it was decided that some costs should be recovered from those using it.

That policy has continued unchanged to this day except for details of fees charged. Given StatsCan's mandate, if they didn't charge fees there would be higher draws on general revenue to compensate. So, should those who use the system the most, pay accordingly? Socialists would say no, everything provided by the state is free; libertarians would say, you get what you pay for.

Ring, ring.

"Hello.

Yes Mr Farmer this is Statscan and we are doing a
survey on your farm finances. We need to ask you a few questions.

Scuse me, what is your name?

Patsy.

Patsy who?

I'm Patsy with Statistics Canada.

Patsy who?

We do not have tell you our last names.
Now please answer a few questions.

Okay, now let me get this straight Patsy.
You want to ask me questions about my farm finances over the phone and expect me to give these confidential personal answers over the phone to an anonymous person who name I don't know, and can't find out.

Yes.

Get lost lady and quite wasting my time.
Just how bloody stupid are you people?"

As they say, you cannot possibly make this stuff up.

I agree that the data are a public good and should be available to all, but the real question is whether Statscan is a bureau or a Crown Corporation. If it's a Crown Corporation, then it is allowed to enforce its copyright on its own data.

http://library2.usask.ca/gic/v2n4/mcmahon/mcmahon.html
Federal government cost recovery policy flows from the fact that the Canadian federal government has copyright in the works it produces including intellectual property. 11 The right is perpetual and is rooted in seventeenth century Britain at the time of the restoration of Charles II well before England's first copyright law was passed in 1710. 12

In the United States the federal government does not have copyright to the works it produces. However, U.S. state and municipal governments can claim copyright as can their Canadian counterparts at the provincial and municipal government level. In Canada both the federal and provincial governments are not bound by the copyright act and are immune from suits for infringement; this is not so with their U.S. counterparts.

To add a wee bit from a farmer's perspective; information is money. All this data we are compelled to provide is useful to some one else to make money off. Case in point; agriculture. If the amount of grain or livestock is a known quantity then the market speculators have a lot easier time in predicting the market. The producers lose a significant advantage they have to the speculators due to the federal government compelling its citizens to hand over private information.

"StatsCan is not a social program; they collect the data that government agencies tell them to collect. This comment is about as dumb as blaming the trashcan as being responsible for creating trash."

Er, CGH why do "government" agencies ask statscan to collect data if not to prove up a scenario for a new social program or expanded spending in existing ones?

Perhaps you think they need the information to support government budget cutbacks? (snicker)

So basically, as cgh so adroitly pointed out, many "conservatives'" personal responsibility/power to the market via pricing/capitalism vs. free goodies from government goes right out the window when $12 is concerned.

Signed,

Your Fellow Conservative

As far as accuracy goes, I suspect Statscan has access to Revenue Canada data, but needs your form filled out as cover for having the real info.

Ian

Well, RCGZ, ever hear of little institutions like Industry Canada, Natural Resources Canada and the Ministry of Finance? Not exactly your social welfare clubs, and they are among the heaviest users of StatsCan data within the government. So, you seem to think that all spending by government is bad, do you? Well, how would you know whether a program was having any effect or not if you didn't collect data about it? It's clear you would prefer to have a government do all its spending without having any intelligence at all on its effects. How do you think we know that Canada has a problem with productivity? StatsCan data among other things.

As to your main contention, don't be a dolt. Governments don't make a habit of inventing social programs; they're LOBBIED FOR by special interest groups.

"Perhaps you think they need the information to support government budget cutbacks? (snicker)"

Just priceless. Where have you been during the last federal election, or during the whole of the 1990s when the feds were cutting programs like mad. Does the phrase "arts cuts" ring a bell for you? Yes, governments cut programs all the time, and surely even you might have observed the effect that one had on the prospects for a Tory majority.

I'm still rubbing my eyes and laughing at this. Did I just read a post on SDA complaining about having to pay $12?

Do people really have to fill out forms without pay? That's slavery. And no one should have to pay for public stats.

" Yes, governments cut programs all the time"

And the budget expands yearly. How does that happen? Oh yes, more social programs and expanded budgets.

As to the conservative capitalist argument, I am paying for the information already. Once with my taxes for the bloated bureaucracy, pensions and jobs for life for those who work for statscan, and twice when my company is expected to provide the resources to collect the data free of charge.

Not going to pay for it three times. That simple.

"RECOMMENDATIONS

It is recommended that Statistics Canada discontinue the practise of cost recovery for goods and services that have been generated in the pursuit of its taxpayer funded activities and move to a system of charges based on transfer costs . Here transfer costs are defined as those costs incurred in moving data from its finished state to a medium as required by the data user. In addition, the use of covenants such as licensing agreements which restrict the use or distribution of goods and services provided by Statistics Canada should be discontinued.

Furthermore, it is recommended that Statistics Canada provide access to its major data bases such as CANSIM via the Internet or other access modes without charge. This approach will facilitate the democratization of data and should lead to a more informed and enlightened public most of whom provide data free of charge to Statistics Canada many times during their lives."

www.stats.gov.sk.ca/docs/costrec.php

Well, RCGZ, I presume that means you're opposed to an expanded military, because that's where a lot of additional funding has gone. I'm not sure I'd call Afghanistan "an expanded social program" but it costs money, lots of it. So, do you want user fees or higher taxes to pay for the extra two plus billion a year? Or fiscal deficits? I happen to think an expanded military and presence in Afghanistan rather important, but your blanket statement labeled government expanded budgets as "social programs".

As to expansion, ever hear of a little thing called inflation? It's still out there. Even standing still and expanding nothing means increased costs year over year. Freezing government expenditure means contracting programs at the inflation rate.

"As to the conservative capitalist argument, I am paying for the information already. Once with my taxes for the bloated bureaucracy, pensions and jobs for life for those who work for statscan, and twice when my company is expected to provide the resources to collect the data free of charge."

No, you're not paying for it. You're paying for part of it, which is why they collect user fees on top.

Ural, you surely realize that recommendations from the government of Saskatchewan are hardly binding on the federal government. Lots of people have been asking for removal of government user fees on lots of things. Big deal. Is Saskatchewan prepared to pay for it through reduced transfer payments? I thought not, and neither is any other province.

Fine, since you offered Industry Canada as an important agency...... I'll just leave it at that.

Many years ago I received the Statcan Farm census. After ignoring it for several months I started to get nasty calls, threatening me with legal action if I did not submit. I finally gave in and listed 10 acres of burdock and 30 acres of marijuana.

Never heard from anyone since.

$5 for every FOI request does not sound so bizarre, eh? I contend they require a cheque to keep track of those who pay for information and for no other reason. Guess it's the same here.

I used to be in business and Stats Can sent out these very detailed request for pricing and sales info. Many were based on a % of sales. I deliberately made the numbers add up to something other than 100%. They never offer to send me to a math re-education class but the info requests stopped!

do you own a gun? try that question.

By refreshing contrast, we in The Great Satan have the General Services Administration's Federal Citizens' Information Center, online at http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/

They have a helluva lot of FREE information available online and via published informational brochures, booklets, etc. The URL for their catalog of these is http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/catalog.pdf Most are free, or if not free, are available for a modest charge of a dollar or a few dollars, for postage and handling.

cgh - you sound like a gov't employee. You might want to get over your Sask thing and read the report/look at the tables. Something tells me that he may be right ... costs about $11m to collect $11m. We're being charged because it costs to charge us.

Squeegee kids.

My apology ... french speaking squeegee kids.