What, did you think that Canada would escape the decline and fall of the west? It is not that we have nothing going for us, it is that we have no will.

Blaming Harper for the economic crash is like blaming the weatherperson for the hurricane.

I would like to know how any of the other candidates would have prevented this.

Countries with goverments way more left than any of our candidates are getting hit harder than us.

Perhaps part of the cause is the realization that the US is going "low growth socialist" Imagine how low growth in Europe would have been had the US not sustained the kind of economic growth it has? Who will the Swedes and Germans sell their cars to?

Canada, as both a culture and economy, has set itself up in a false cocoon.

Economically, we set ourselves up as the secure suburban nest of homes, connected to the US economy. We, ourselves, did economically nothing. We shipped all of our exports to only one country, the US. We did nothing to make them competitive in the world market; we sell to no-one else. We don't invest any time or money in failures in competition.

Intellectually, we did no research and technological development on our own; we rely, again, on the US innovations, and we copy or franchise them up in our suburban safety. We don't invest any time or money or failures, in such fields.

Culturally, we created a fictional tale about ourselves. We ignored facts and told ourselves we were bilingual, thus depriving over 80% of the population from active and serious participation in the affairs of the nation. We therefore handed over the running of the country to a small set of mandarins, even more cocooned from reality, in the Montreal-Ottawa corridor.

Relying on the US as we do, we set up our 'average citizen' as economically middle class. We taxed anyone who was able to rise above this level, to redistribute that money to ensure all were, more or less, at the same level. We thus have no investor class, and must rely on foreign money to develop our industries.

Since we have rejected risk, competition and long term investment - we expect to live in our cocooned suburban security ..forever. That's the job of govt; to keep us from reality.

The most successful political parties in Canada are the ones that keep us from reality. That's the Liberal Party..and the Bloc in Quebec. Both operate within mythic tales; both deal with the people, not by telling us 'what is real' but by insisting on those fictional tales that they have spun about us.

Canadians prefer the bedtime stories to the light of reality. The question is - how long can the US, their parent, protect Canada's insistence on stories rather than facts?

Why do people feel that the stock market is the Government's responsibility? There is no financial crisis in this country, no banks are being bailed out. No Bay street companies are being bailed out. The ONLY thing happening in this country is that the stock markets have gone down. Now, I own stock, and it went down, but that is the hole point of going into the stock market. Sometimes it goes down, sometimes it goes up. In the long run it will go up. If you don't like this, put your money in a savings account. Don't look at the government to assure your stock goes up.

I totally agree with the notion that we have lost our will to achieve. The encroaching sense that the government has failed us because our lifestyle may have to be restrained for a while smacks of such incredible arrogance and entitlement as previously stated. Our forefathers must be rolling in their graves. We had this incredible democracy dropped in our laps...did not fight for it so I guess we can take it for granted and act like petulant and spoiled little children who want what they want NOW!!

Hail Mary pass time for Bonzo, Chretien, is now out claiming he's responsible for the fact Canada is in good economic shape! Do we need anymore proof is da proof the Liberals are about as certifiably wacko as the Dippers? Funny too to hear Jean admit the country IS in good shape while the rest of the rat's asses are saying it isn't and proliferating the lie we're close to or in deficit. It's time for Chretien to STFU and tend to his business in China. Or perhaps he could read Paul Martin's book, some of which has been conveniently leaked.

Has anyone noticed, in any little corner of the news rags, any mention of Dion's plagiarizing an entire speech. Any mention of it on Puffy Duffy or beady-eyed Newman's political shows? It was front page news when Rae fed Harper's plagiarism of a couple of lines from John Howard in a speech written by a speechwriter.

Perhaps we'll need to take to the streets if Harper loses this election, or, head for the hills.

This was coming anyway. So many people have a personal debt far beyond their means: credit cards maxed out, house far too large for their needs and means, no savings for retirement, etc.

From here on out the successful politician will be the one that promises to use our own money, the money of our neighbours, that of our children and their children to solve all of our perceived current problems.

Harper has embraced practically everything Liberal. It's a mystery to me why he didn't just say what people wanted to hear, and then not do it once elected (another Liberal trait).

I totally agree with the notion that we have lost our will to achieve. The encroaching sense that the government has failed us because our lifestyle may have to be restrained for a while smacks of such incredible arrogance and entitlement as previously stated. Our forefathers must be rolling in their graves. We had this incredible democracy dropped in our laps...did not fight for it so I guess we can take it for granted and act like petulant and spoiled little children who want what they want NOW!!

As a side note Taliban Jack is advertising on Drudge lately, trying to convert the right -what a putz!

Snake oil salesmen like Dion and Layton rely on our sense of entitlement to hoodwink us and hasten their reworking our entire society in their image. From the looks of the recent polls they are succeeding.

My faith in Canada is rapidly heading back to where it was in 2004. Somebody say something encouraging, please.

Because the Media constantly present the two issues together the idea is planted that the government is responsible for stock markets.

Public Investors are responsible for stock markets ... that's why trading in them is called PUBLIC trading.

Message to Canadians .... Stop allowing the MSM to dictate how you think.

I'm still seething at Dale Goldhawk's remark, which I posted on a previous thread, that on election day "we will have elected a government that will take care of us."
Talk about entitlement.

Another poll that can be made to go even more horribly wrong

http://tinyurl.com/4dn4st

pile on

Personally, it doesn't bother me that people are upset that their home or stock values are dropping ... What bothers me is that the same people who constantly call on the government to make homes affordable are also the people who are calling on the government to prevent home values from dropping.

Geez, haven't you all figured it out yet. The stock markets are liberally biased.

Canadians as a people are lazy morons. Full stop. The fact that 2/3s of voters support socialist parties is all the proof you need.

When you rob Peter to pay Paul, don't be surprised when Paul votes for more of the same.

By the looks of the polls, Paul outnumbers Peter 70% to 30%.

Who is Liberal/Left Paul?

Women, immigrants, students, the uninformed, the perpetually afraid, sexually inadequate men. And the people who make money off them.

Fear. Lies. Money. Liberals.

Media. Sheep. Serfs.

Don't work, don't eat. Pretty basic concept. If your life revolves around sucking money from those who do work, and hard, then you ignore reality. Blaming others for your particular plight is ignoring reality. You are the sole person responsible for your current and future situation. Take responsibilty for it. Ignoring reality is living beyond your means and expecting others to cover you when you fail.

That was very good and informed opinion ET.
Reminds me of a talk I and friends with my Dad concerning free trade. His answer was simple, How can 30 million people trade with 300 million people and expect to compete with the governments of Canada committed to a socialist agenda.

Wise words from the old man.

It's all checkers vs chess. Seriously! Harper's goal isn't to win THIS election, it's to destroy the Liberals for the next ten elections (see Tom Flanagan). When the Tories were up 15 points the Liberals were beginning to throttle back the spending trying to save the party for the future. now that it's a much closer race the Liberals are spending again, to the limit. Do you think maybe Harper is happy about that? If the Liberals win Harper's strategy fails. If they don't Harper gets at least a minority and a Liberal opposition that can't afford another election for 10 years. And Dion will be toast, the Liberals will have another divisive, expensive, delegated convention, and Harper is home free for years to come. Harper can live with a CPC minority, the Liberals can't.

The CBC comments on financial stories make me want to tear my hair out...they're a bunch of doomsday fools who anthropomoprhize the stock market into some evil offspring of George Bush and the republicans. I agree that the stock market has lots its meaning (it used to be a vehicle for investment and a way to create capital) but its hardly necessary these days. Its simply become the worlds largest casino where the true value of a company has little to not meaning at all (look at the stocks of all the potash companies operating in Saskatchewan....record profits, record potash prices, and they've fallen 400% in the last 4 months).

Plus, while most western nations are bailing out their financial systems, Canada is sitting pretty due to Harper-nomics, due to his safe and cautious economic policies.

I dont share the doom and gloom some have about what Canadians think. We are in the middle of something and this was the moment for the opposition to let loose.

If they cannot take the lead now then when?

The world economy is in bad shape. The crisis in confidence eroding things. Action is being taken, the question, is it enough to get everyone to stop thinking the end of Western Civilization is upon us. When that happens normal greed will return ivestment starts again.

The lack of clarity and information about how bad things are is the problem. Once markets find the right level it returns. A sideways market today and tomorrow would be a good thing. it will convince people that bottoms are reached. it may be a tough slog back up but this gives you an indication of what happens when faith in the future collapses to a singularity of today.

The tories have been getting pasted because they let themselves get painted into the "no problem" corner.

1) There was a problem, not out fault, but still a problem

2) Made it look they didnt care or get it ot were hiding

Tories tried to get it onto the leadership in tough times, but couldnt get on message, that is the winning message. Stay away from buying low, or fundamentals are strong. More like as a government we have strengthened our foundations to weather storms like this as best as we can.

Evidence is beginning to build on the con side. Especially this idea that Canadian Banks and Insurance companies are being sought as havens and as saviours. All of a sudden it will look like we had sound fundamentals and will be able to take advantage of this situation. But that is out of con control.

Empathize with being maudlin. Somehow the Cons need to get control back, because hoping for positive, or negtive markets in the Grit and Dipper case, is not the way to ensure victory, it is gambling.

Need to emphasize record, emphasize dangers of the alternative, need to emphasize changes in the other sides plan as panic that might have fit a day but not long term. Harper hasnt done a good summary, he needs to really seal it with a summary of the elction....he needs to pose the question and make the case.

Canadians understand these things, but you have to say them, you cant rely on osmosis.

The markets are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. They rise and they fall, but for every fall, they rise further than the last time. Look at an Andex chart and you will see the upward trend. Investing takes time and patience, and those who are jumping off the cliff right now are locking in their losses, and that's a shame. And no, the government shouldn't be held reponsible for the nervous nellies.

Have you ever considered giving the leftists what they want? The former communist states in Europe had more than enough communism and socialism to help them make the right decisions. Perhaps what Canada really needs, despite the pain it will cause, is to give the NDP a chance to do to Canada what they did to Ontario. And not just for one term either; we should cram all the socialism they thought they wanted down their throats, and when they don't want anymore, keep cramming. And when they literally beg us to stop, when we hit 20% unemployment, when you can literally step over the bodies of homeless people in Toronto that the government was unable to feed? Keep cramming, but even harder.

Only when the last socialist in Canada gives up the cause will it be possible to start the healing.

"The fact that the decline in Harper's fortunes seems to go lock step with a decline in the stock market indicates"
that Harper has spent the last 20 years identifying himself with the market.

"Take responsibilty for it."

Unfortunately, jt, there are too many people that will vote for the politician that will promise the most goodies to them.

Same thing is happening south of the 49th.

Dion, Layton, Duceppe, May and Oprahbama are all pied pipers playing the sweet music of entitlements to a large voting block of the ignornat and the lazy.

So let me see if I have this clear:

The "people" see the economy tanking and the markets in panic.

So the "people" decide to run to the party which promises to raise taxes on everything thus making any downturn worse.

The "people" are too stupid to live.

When did we become such a nanny state? Why is it the states responsibility to take care of every part of our lives?

I hear Dion saying that he will protect our pensions and our investments... How? By getting a bunch of the top people together to talk about it over 30 days??
A new liberal law that the stock markets from now on are only allowed to go up in value?

I think he is smoking something (and if so pass it over 'cuse it must be good). He thinks that all these top minds will agree on one solution to fix all the issues in 30 days..
Have you seen how governments works?? 30 day.. maybe 30 months to get a plan agreed on and out for legislation.
If we consult 10 people about the issue, we are going to get 10 different suggested solutions.

Will there be a free vote on this economic plan? What if I don't like it but I voted Liberal.. can I change my mind?

This is not a simple problem that is happening. This is caused by human greed and the issues run deep and beyond Canadian jurisdiction.

The stock markets are dictating the economy whereas it is usually the economy that dictates the stock markets.

There is a big financial correction that is happening, but it needed to be done.

Unlike in the U.S. our banks are not going under. We are in trouble but nothing like south of the border. (something that people here do not seem to get... )

People are getting confused over this as we are bombarded with CNN and American coverage of their issues.
Other then normal problems that come with economic slow downs, I have not heard of anything catastrophic happening in Canada beyond the stock market corrections.

But The Libs and NDP seem to bring up this end of the world rhetoric ... (great just that's what I want, chicken little running the country)

Our problems are going to be with the sudden drop of capital that is available due to the downturn in the stock market affecting available credit, as well as a slow down in the economy due to a lack of demand for our goods.

Hey the government could always instate more make-work projects like Ontario had under Bob Rae in the 90s... Anyone remember the beloved Rae Days, when things started to get really bad??
How quickly we forget... hey we got the skydome.. opps rogers centre out of it. (How much did it cost to build vs how much was it sold for??)

I agree with the other posters, when did the government have to guarantee that our investments will always return a profit? I bet a lot of those people who took the "low risk" - "low return" investments are smiling a little more smugly now.

What we need to do is bring in the sales, batten down the hatches and point the bow into the wind.
I think our ship is sound, we do not need to make major changes in course; rather only minor adjustments, as needed, to weather this coming storm.

ET: "The most successful political parties in Canada are the ones that keep us from reality. That's the Liberal Party..and the Bloc in Quebec." I agree with this. The current increase in Liberal popularity is I think an irrational (perhaps even unconscious)attempt to pretend that we can return to the "good old days" of Liberal rule. (Lots of people think these were good times. What many recall is that they did not feel scared.) In previous times we could afford to "pretend". In the current situation this is a recipe for disaster. Hopefully people will "get a grip" and not act irrationally on voting day.

As much as I hated trudeau he had one thing dead on, and that was the fact that the 10 to 15% of the population that actually had any understanding of the issues didn't matter, the other 80% that voted did, they are the ones that will get me elected.

Most Conservatives are reality based and just don't tolerate or put up with the BS. We are as a group divided in our approach to a solution for anything, as it should be to find the proper solution, but that leaves us venerable. In turn the ants simply following the sent trail in front of them into the fire because that is what they are programmed to do, any lasting or meaningful solutions they come up with are usually accidental. One thing you can be sure of, it will sound good and be seen to be good regardless of the facts. Any blame of any kind is denied and the finger pointing begins as is currently the case.

People are going to react very irrationally on voting day.  Ontario and Quebec are populated with large groups of haters — they'll go apesh!t on the CPC's fundament and we'll be left with another (probably reduced) CPC minority.

You think we had gridlock before?  You ain't seen nothin' yet, babies.

Christopher Newton asks, "When did we become such a nanny state?"

Here's a clue, one word, starts with 't', ends with 'u', with 'rudea' in the centre.

We (both Canadians and Americans) need to do a better job of picking and holding to account our political representatives and political leaders.

It is somewhat ironical that Pres. Bush is taking most of the heat from irate citizens for this latest market meltdown. Bush has much to account for wrt the economy to be sure, in particular the spiraling debt loads from the wars.

Strangely enough though, it wasn't the war debt that triggered this latest market turmoil. What caused this latest market meltdown was inevitable, given the misguided leftist social/political agenda of the Democrats, and the incestuous relationship they have had over the last decade with various corrupt Wall Street and corporate con artists, in particular the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac mortgage giants. The Fannie and Freddie follies are primarily the direct result of Democrat social engineering and meddling, coupled with the unbounded greed and profiteering of Wall Street hucksters and corporate weasels that have gone unchecked for far too long.

People have to wake up to the fact that politicians of all stripes are responsible for the economic well being of our two nations. Making knee-jerk decisions at the polls is not enough. We need to elect people of integrity and honesty to our governments. We need to get rid of those politicians who are obviously in office to serve only themselves and their greedy friends. We need to elect people with the courage and resolve to take on and prosecute the criminal excesses of Wall Street and the corporate elite.

I take it back. You right whingers are hilarious.

Thanks Robert McClelland for proving you don't get it. I see, people are hurting, but it's OK for a "progressives" to make flippant and insensitive remarks.

I saw Mansbridge/Harper interview last night, which I considered tough but fair, though Mansbridge's body language was terrible (maybe that's just his affectations).

Harper did well, but I sensed his head is spinning with the nonsense being spewed by Dion and especially Layton, which McClelland above exemplifies - something must be done, but they never offer an ideas of what that action should be.

Tonight, Jack Layton will be interviewed by Mansbridge. I hope Layton is asked what SPECIFIC action he would take as PM, and he is not allowed to get away with saying he will help people or make polluters pay. He must be challenged to drop the platitudes and explain in clear terms what his strategy would be, with timelines, benchmarks and expected results.

Our PM has stated that his government has taken specific action leading up to this crisis, and Layton must be challenged to explain why that isn't working and how his "plan" will change that.

Rhetoric without details is BS. BTW, good entitlement comments ET with Robert McClelland demonstrating the mentality to which you refer.

Only a little OT:

Angus-Reid: Conservative 35%, Liberals 27%, NDP 18%, Greens 10%, Bloc 9%

MJ, this poll is evidence of Layton's incompetence. He could have supplanted Grits as Official Opposition, had he asked for the job and dropped his neo Marxist rhetoric (I will make polluters pay), with an extremely weak Liberal leader.

Instead he is 9% behind them. Good job Mr Layton, looks good on you.

This poll is signal (that's all who knows if it's accurate) that Tory numbers firming up. Keep working hard, a majority, always a challenge and now even more unlikely, is nevertheless still in the realm of possibility, as voters experience progressive buyer's remorse in the voting booth.

Canada will "skirt" recession:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=f00d8d60-13d8-4602-ab2f-348ae5885e06

I can't believe Harper is losing support in the face of the upcoming financial storm. Really, who is he losing support to? Layton? Dion, who can't even manage to repay his own debts? To May? This is riduculous. Even more ridiculous is the fact that the MSM refuse to admit this, let alone bring up the subject of Dion's outstanding debts or Layton's utopian yet financial unfeasible plan for the country. I feel as if Harper has had chance at a majority quashed by the political left behind the media. Take a look at the Election ticker over at CTV for example. There is never one positive sounding headline about the Conservatives. You would swear that they killed the news editor first born by the amount of vitriol published their throughout the day. The same goes for CBC.

This country is screwed. For our idiocy we deserve another four years under the liberals, and hopefully it will put us in deep enough financial ruin that it will kill us and put us out of our misery. The Canada we knew is dead.

If you're fighting the other tribe for a fresh deer carcass and the wolfpack shows up to stake its claim, is the winning tribe the one left holding the carcass?

The state has to regulate them or they'll run around like a bunch of Black market A-Rabs.
Four hundred million dollar Bonuses for some Executives while people are losing their homes and savings - that can't be right by any standard.
Speaking of entitlements you should mention government funded Day-Care.
I call them Welfare-Yuppies.

I agree on the "entitlement" aspect to this story. Canadians are looking for reassurance and for someone to tell them that things are going to be okay. Harper is giving them the straight goods on the situation facing the economy. Dion, on the other hand, is offering pie-in-the-sky and unfortunately Canadians are gravitating toward his message. The Liberals will promise anything to get elected.

Economics 101 says if you want people to spend and save and you want corporations to grow, hence creating more jobs, the LAST thing you do is increase taxes.

Layton and Dion plan to increase personal and corporate taxes.

Yet few in the media seem able (or willing) to pair liberal plans with the slowing economy, and highlight the fact that Dion and Layton will HEIGHTEN the pain rather than mitigate it.

--

If you haven't read the editorial in the NP today, it's a breath of fresh air.

Dizzy, do you know the difference between the "market" and the "stock market?"

Gay "marriage", unlimited abortion, freedom of speech is an American concept, change the flag, change the anthem, set up aboriginal principalities and cease applying the laws of Canada to them.... Anyone need any more evidence the country is unhinged.

Oh, I forgot mass dissimilar immigration - a Canadian obsession which is a mental substitute for real economic producitivty and is not only bringing about tangible social disorder now but is storing up much more trouble for later. And, in case anyone thinks it adds something economically, get with it - economists like George Borjas have confirmed it adds NOTHING per capita - all growth obtains to the immigrants themselves, with wages driven down for the rest of us, and house prices up, the laws of suply and demand not being magically suspended for immigration.

I have long thought that the only hope for a cure of Canada's mental illness is shock treatment - and looks like we're about to get it in the form of economic misery.

Or the difference between the economy and the stock market?

I seem to recall the Bank of Canada giving some support to our chartered bank system, but I have heard nothing of bank collapses, like we're hearing in the U.S., the U.K. and in Europe.

Here's some of CANADA's economic fundamentals.

Announced budget surplus of $3.3 billion for the first four months of this year.

93.9% employment, virtually full employment in the three Western Canadian provinces. Taxes being send to Ottawa from virtual full employment account for the surplus, which will be slightly less than last year's $10 billion surplus.

GDP increase of 0.7% in the last quarter. That's positive growth and the best among all G7 economies.

Stock market is falling. That would be a private enterprise market, now undergoing panic selling.

Canada will be affected, as predicted more than a year ago, with job losses in the manufacturing sector. That's because US consumers are reluctant to spend.

The Canadian prime minister did NOT cause stock markets to crash.

Voting in a party that promises to raise taxes will make the situation worse.

Vote for the party that promises to spend the least amount of YOUR money. That's right. YOUR money. It's not the government's money.

I don't think that it was only Trudeau who set Canada up as a fictional country, living within a cocoon, separated from the risks of reality. Trudeau certainly validated that structure, making it constitutional, with his Charter - a document which has removed the rights of the majority of the population.

But the development of the economic and ideological infrastructure of Canada as a suburb of the US - protected from the evils of the Big City (the US) by a few dozen kilometers (and we switched it from miles to kilometers to further fictionalize the difference between the US and Canada)...came after WWII. Sort of like a bedroom community to a large city.

That's when the policy of a governance of Canada, not by provinces or local realities, but via centralism devloped - a government thousands of miles away, isolate in itself and focused only around two provinces: Ontario and Quebec.

The first reason for this centralism was demographic; Canada's population of 11 million was split, 4 and 4, between Quebec and Ontario. The other 3 million were elsewhere and irrelevant. This centralist focus became entrenched. At the same time, the economy developed as an appendage of that of the explosive industrial growth of the USA. We 'sucked off' this American growth; we did not develop our own investor or innovative class.

Then, the wealth of this era, when we shipped all our goods to the US, meant a suburban life of ease and this led to the ability to be a welfare state - part of the 1960's ideological era of Being Looked After.

We educated a whole generation in the ideals of Being Looked After by the Government - and we rejected any tactics that would promote self-reliance, risk-taking, competition, entrepreneurship. Instead of private enterprise, we moved into govt enterprises, whether it be the CBC or Bombardier. We defined ourselves as the opposite, as 'peacekeepers, tolerant'..ignoring that such labels were actually keeping us passive and unable to take charge of ourselves.

And,that central govt became an oligarchy, a Set of people who saw themselves as entitled to rule.

Then, reality began to change. And the govt, primarily Liberal tried desperately to retain The Old Structure of Centralism.

The change was both economic and demographic. The old balance between Ontario and Quebec changed; Quebec stalled, and turned inward, rejecting the rest of Canada and becoming a socialist, dependent population, interested only on what it could get out of federation. Ontario's population almost doubled that of Quebec, primarily due to immigration - but - we didn't integrate these people.

And, the West opened up, demographically and economically. Since it had always been ignored by the central govt, it wasn't part of that ideology of state welfare, of keeping the population in secondary industries and passive. It was free, individualistic, entrepreneurial.

The centralist govt fought back against this new ideology on the horizon. That's Trudeau, who attempted to break the West, econmically, by the NEP - ie, attempting to take central control of their resources. And, he set up an infrastructure of bilingualism that effectively cut off 80% of the population from government roles - and kept the federal govt firmly in the control of that Ottawa-Montreal Set.

The entrenchment of power in this Ottawa-Montreal set was further enhanced by the refusal to change our govt structure from one based primarily on centralist appointments - to the Senate, the courts, the deputy ministers, the heads of crown corporations..to elected ones.

Australia, unlike Canada, rejected such a centralist structure and changed its governing structure to elections (Senate, judges etc) and also, focused on risk-taking, investors, innovations. Its a vital economy.

Canada chose to be a suburb, a bedroom community dependent on the US economy and technology.

It can't remain as such -

Harper is trying to change this two-generation infrastructure (now constitutionalized by Trudeau) and allow a structure that returns power to the people. That takes it away from the exclusive Set in Ottawa-Montreal. But, a transformation is never gradual, easy and like licking an ice cream. It's frightening, it's shocking - and Canadians have been bred to reject risks, to not think for themselves, to remain hidden in their suburbs.

But, it has to be done. Do Canadians have any courage left to take charge of their country and mature and reject being a bedroom nation?

The Liberals won decade after decade because, as Peter Brimelow observed, they were like the circus rider with one foot on each pony. The ponies were the liberal/socialist elements of English and French Canada. The conservatisms of English and French Canada were somewhat antithetical, but the liberal, left-wing elements were sufficiently compatible to permit Liberal party appeals to both at the same time and so create working majorities. They used their power to transform the country and now we seem to be a road without an exit.

The opening observation about entitlement mentality is spot on - Lord help us in a new Depression, given the now baked-in ethnic divisions, lack of self-sufficiency, and entitlement mentality. However, it's probably coming and can be welcomed if only for being likely to rid us of our many illlusions.

Pursuant to post by jcl at October 8, 2008 12:32 PM

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5g7AhKoHeM6M_m6JXTuZ2q9cEjS6A

Here is Bob Rae, the man who nearly wrecked Canada's largest province, saying Canada is in recession, vs. the Royal Bank, and other international experts that say he is wrong.

Has any one of our intellectual and moral superiors in the press thought to ask the obvious question?

ET at 1:15pm. That's a pretty good meta-analysis of Canada's descent into nanny state entitlement mentality. I would summarize yet further by saying that it began under Uncle Louis in the 1950s, started to get traction under Lester Pearson in the 1960s, but really accelerated under Trudeau. That was the era in which Ontario fully caught the entitlement disease, along with many major cities in the other provinces.

The cultural marxist accoutrements (multiculturalism, media and academe political correctness, special interest group lobbying, the charter and the thought police really do date from the Trudeau era. We have had little, if any serious rollback of these under Harper, and with another minority CPC government (or, God forbid, a Lib/Dip coalition government) we can't look forward to any rollback for many years.

As for an economic crisis wringing this entitlement and cultural marxist crap out of our system as some posters here have suggested, the scale of economic tsunami that would be required to wring it out would likely finish us off first. As I stated earlier in this thread, I am still looking for a reason to be optimistic.

Jack and Dion are slamming Harper for his comment last night about buying stocks right now, Harper said that the businessman at the Toronto luncheon he spoke at, suggested that there is some good bargins out there right now.

I guess Canadians have a choice: invest in the NDP or Libs who want to hammer the corporations with more taxes or invest in Canadian corporations that provide the jobs.

Boomers should be entitled to their housing bubble ? Ask the kids.

There is no free lunch - just redistributed lunch.

Politicians can't fix things - they just break them.

A coming main street hurt ? - Depends on how long the sell off stays down. 1987, nothing. 1929, lots.

'29' - the common folk buying stocks with credit.

'08' - banks buying junk with derivatives.

Sell offs happen when the commodity is held by too many weak hands. (over extended hands)

Oil going straight down - USA dollar going straight up. What's it saying ?? CNN talking heads of 2 weeks ago knew effall ! (Will you keep listening to them?)

Taxpayer $$s to help one group will always hurt the others. (That is why Politicians talk out of both sides of their mouths. SPIN !!)

Remember the experts saying "cash is trash ?" King now.

Leveraging, spec houses and auto leasing fell out of favor in 08. Bank on it.

This is a credit, liquidity crunch - aka, everyone has the loan. No one has the money to lend. Including gov'ts, institutions, banks.

Those that do have money to lend are unwilling at the moment because the collateral may fall in price. (See Japan 1995. aka deflation)

Deflation in today's society would be the 'Mother Of All Bulls In A China Shop'.

Bail outs are meant to achieve(try) a soft landing. Not to restore all the former wealth. Same as taking our money(taxes) and giving it back to ourselves( less adscam commissions).

RIM Berry going in toilet, needs cash. Lost almost a third of it's value in one day. Should not have given to the UN's One World Governance scheme .. $30 million. Loosing ground to apple, ect.

Loosing ground !? Potash Corp in free fall since Green Suzuki figured out biofuels are a dumb idea. (Our Farmers will wear that one big time) We may be asked to bail that one out too.

The easiest money will be made in the months after the Bull stands up.

"ET at 1:15pm. That's a pretty good meta-analysis of Canada's descent into nanny state entitlement mentality. I would summarize yet further by saying that it began under Uncle Louis in the 1950s, started to get traction under Lester Pearson in the 1960s, but really accelerated under Trudeau. That was the era in which Ontario fully caught the entitlement disease, along with many major cities in the other provinces."

But it isn't as though Canadian politicians (esp. the Liberal party and its CCF, later NDP, cheerleaders) hatched this on their own and made it all up as they went along. Their model above all was post-WWII Great Britain, but other European states as well (Tommy Douglas didn't "invent" nationalized medicine, as our pathetic mythology would have it).

Felis:

And I thought I was a pessimist....

The Gods of the Copybook Headings will return, but how many will be capable of understanding what's happening and what's needed, or will they all just rage?

The risk of the shock treatment is a descent into savagery.

Invest in resorts and spa's like the AIG executives after the bailout. All the stress no doubt. hahaha! Kate killed the post from the Washingtonpost.com or google AIG 85 billion bailout resort

Can I make a suggestion to the SDA nation.

The result of this election is being decided right now. The blogosphere has a role to play.

I've been on the various forums and media sites for the whole election, trying to promote the Harper approach, trying to make it clear how disastrous the Liberals and NDP are for Canada. It's a constant daily battle, and hundreds are fighting it.

Join the battle. Go out to the websites of the major newspapers, the TV networks. All of them - the Toronto Star, the CBC, CTV, Global, National Post, Globe and Mail, and any others you can think of. Call the radio shows. Voice your support for Harper.

Voice your opinions. Approve the good ones, disapprove the bad ones. That's how public opinion is influenced.

You might influence some opinions. But sitting here won't influence anything.

The most active site in the Canadian media is the Globe. Make your voice heard there, and elsewhere. Don't let the liberal lies go unanswered.

Sure the Toronto Star is a scumsucker of a newspaper. Sure the CBC makes you sick. You can disdain the battle, or you can join up, post, and say you fought for what's right.

There's a week left in this election. I sense that it's all still in the air.

I'm glad SOMEONE on the other side has the good sense to assist Stephen Harper in assuring Canadians that their banks are solid.

Ironic that the guy that would do anything to win realizes the importance more than the Doomsy Twins!

Stock market is in tank, and Dion is beaming.

It seems Grits finally got their wish for something bad to happen to Canadians, so they could take advantage of it. Don't offer solutions, offer panic, offer meetings, offer lies (worst performance in G8, in recession).

Harper right on with buying opportunity. The TSX is roughly 1/3 off its highs. Good quality companies can be bought right now with margin of safety. Even if market drops a bit further, you have 33% return locked in to when it goes back to high, which it always does, the only question being time. Quality stock markets (hit: not Nasdaq) always return their values, and it's hard to believe banks, who make money in virtually all environments, will shed value permanently, or long term.

Dion and Jack trash Harper as being out of touch for saying that there are buying oppurtunities out there. Of course this is news to be repeated over and over by the cbc and ctv. Today the TSE goes up proving that Harper was right. Don't hold your breath waiting for this fact to supplant the leftards opinions on the news.

Posted by: Lori at October 8, 2008 3:30 PM

Good idea Lori. Been hammering comments on G&M. Commented on VC Sun.

Lets everybody do it from SDA. Maybe in at election date it might work.

Absolutely Shamrock. AFter dumping my stocks at TSX = 15K, I've been buying on the dips for the last couple of weeks.

Yet to see any money.... LOL.... but I've no qualms, and I've no delusions that I really know where the bottom is. All I know is that it's not that far, and based on all previous market experience, markets get oversold in a panic, and always have a small to medium bounce-back before setting for the long slow recovery.

Bank stocks are on sale. I bought mine yesterday :)

Shamrock - "It seems Grits finally got their wish for something bad to happen to Canadians, so they could take advantage of it."

It's called "la politique du pire", and it's essentially a less violent version of the same approach that terrorists use to de-stabilize their target states.

"There is a key concept of revolutionary guerilla warfare that has, oddly, no standard translation in English: "la politique du pire". Literally, it is the strategy of (making things) worse. The idea is that the guerillas, who lack the military strength to beat their opponents in open battle, should concentrate instead on destroying the structures and services on which the population depends." (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/20/1061368352297.html Warning, author is Gwyn Dyer)

MJ at 2:50 pm.:

Of course the Libs and Dips did not invent the Canadian nanny state and political correctness on their own; but they did superintend its roll-out in Canada.

Re: Lori's post 3:30 PM Oct 08/08:
"Sure the Toronto Star is a scumsucker of a newspaper. Sure the CBC makes you sick. You can disdain the battle, or you can join up, post, and say you fought for what's right."

I did just what you suggested several days ago by signing onto the CBC website. I had been posting and voting on comments there for a few days, that is until today. Apparently, they don't appreciate my opinions and the way I vote, because today they blocked me from accessing the comments section for all of their news items. I did sign in with my original name and password today, I can still read the news articles, but I am totally blocked from the comments.

I guess this is how they get the counts up so high to favor their lefty skewed opinions on almost any issue.

Our tax dollars out there - working against us!

Dion is on newsworld,right now,mangling english and every question.

Jack Layton is shocked, shocked I tell you at the insensitivity of Stephen Harper telling Canadians that there might be some buying opportunities.

After he is finished his press conference, manages to gather himself from the Harper outrage he ..... calls his stockbroker.

What a hypocrite, telling us he interested in what's going on at the kitchen table, with family income over $400K per year, hanging out with union bosses and other self-appointed (and taxpayer funded) elites.

Posted by: Shamrock -- Dizzy, do you know the difference between the "market" and the "stock market?"

This is not a matter of Economic Science.
The question is why people are turning away from Harper.
And his image, his history & his recent words "let the market work itself out" place him in the market populist, small government camp.
Ironically, panics & wars, when people turn to the government, usually increase support for the government. He could still turn the drain around.

I don't in fact think this the only factor -- in Quebec he has misstepped a couple of times.
What's your explanation for the drop?
Do you agree with the paste, which reeks of Brecht's jibe that the people are not worthy of the government [so why not "dissolve the people and elect another?” ]

Let's see. What's the story?

The global financial crisis is being blamed on Harper. It's all his fault. People are worried and he will not run around promising billions of dollars to anyone who asks for them. The country is going into, not a recession, but a depression! SO! let's switch our vote to a party that promises to completely knacker the economy with government Green Stuff, i.e. taxation.

This whole decline in Harper's numbers doesn't make sense.

Do people really want a massive increase in taxation?

Do people really want the Dijon babbling on unintelligably?

Do people want to be brought to their knees by over-taxation; higher gas-prices?

Do people really want the childish Parliamentary behaviour we had in the last minority?

Do people really want yet another PM from Quebec?

RW:
Hell no! I'm a resident of Quebec.

"If they don't Harper gets at least a minority and a Liberal opposition that can't afford another election for 10 years."

rat

That is exactly right. That is why the best thing that can happen to the Liberals is a Conservative majority government. The Conservatives will act as a majority if the seat breakdown is similar on Oct 15 as it is today.

The reason why things are good here in Canada compared to the rest of the world is because of the tories. It is why the US Federal Reserve is asking Canadian banks for help and why they are buying American assets right now.

I've watched politics since I was a teen, and have voted for almost every conceivable party over the years. I'm distubed at the decline for the Conservatives in the polls especially in consideration of the unrealistic platforms of the opposition. Between the arts and culture flair up (Hell hath no furry like the entitled being pulled from the Public teat), and the want of someone to "feel your pain" the hopes of a majority are in doubt. If I want someone to comfort me I'll buy a dog. What I want is someone firmly in control, that I think can run a country. So, I'm with Harper all the way.

ET and Joe Canuck, good comments although somewhat harsh. Americans were always the pioneers, Canadians the colonials. I've long suspected it's a genetic proclivity. The end result is sound banks north of the 49th. Rather than buy U. S. assets, how about bailing out little Iceland. I'd hate for Mad Vlad to get another death grip on a country in crisis. Plus, the large regional banks in the U. S. are quite fluid and laying low. You all do the same. Things will slow up for a few months and then momentum will rebuild. If, on the other hand, BO gets into the White House, hunker down for a long, squalid death spiral to socialism.

iowavette, thank you for noticing. The political finger pointing and blame game is running at high gear now in both our countries. I share your same concerns wrt the socialist agenda - both the Liberal and NDP parties here want to entrench us in their warm fuzzy versions of classless cradle-to-grave nanny statism. Not my cup of tea either.

Good luck to you all down there. I hope what emerges out of all this turmoil will be improved versions of both of our great nations.