"A total of fifty-four million Muslims now live in Europe."

Holy ****!
I knew it was bad, but I had no idea it was THAT bad!

Coming soon? Or already here?

It is very difficult to be an optimist in the face of the growing Islamization of Europe. All the tides are against us. On all fronts we are losing. Demographically the momentum is with Islam. Muslim immigration is even a source of pride within ruling liberal parties. Academia, the arts, the media, trade unions, the churches, the business world, the entire political establishment have all converted to the suicidal theory of multiculturalism. So-called journalists volunteer to label any and all critics of Islamization as a ‘right-wing extremists’ or ‘racists’. The entire establishment has sided with our enemy. Leftists, liberals and Christian-Democrats are now all in bed with Islam.

I was listening to John Oakley on AM 640 this morning. The topic was some nutty Jewish professor at York University who’s filed a complaint against the university with – you guessed it – the Ontario Human Rights Commission because the good professor believes that shutting the school down on Jewish holidays engenders anti-Semitism (!). He would like to teach his class but the classroom doors are shut.

The first caller I heard was let’s just say from a broad strata of society, who said it didn’t matter as we are eventually all going to be muslims according to the word of god, and god does not lie.

It was quite chilling to hear – forget about Europe, let’s look at our own problems.

Edward, followed by this......"San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering 25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just 12 years from now. Bernhard Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century."

At best, even if the pushback started in earnest now, Europe is going to be a very different place in 20 years. Decades of inertia, appeasement and outright collaboration can't stem the tide of this catastrophe, it's an uneasy truce at best.

Europeans haven't even started to seriously organize themselves on a grassroots level that I can see. Where's the rage translated into a huge political upset for the status quo or protests in the streets? They let us use our armed forces and treasury to protect them from the USSR. Who is going to fix this for them? The path Europe has chosen is one of appeasement to anything threatening them.

Too bad so few in his homeland, a ground zero country, are listening to Wilders. He's vilified there. The Dutch, Swedish and the French truly deserve their burqas. Creating a Muslim/dhimmi refuge in those countries might be a solution for any EU country that finally pushes back.

Obama's forces are pushing hard for the Muslim vote here, they are canvassing mosques. Socialists are as despicable fascists as 7th century Islam. They compliment each other.

Living in Europe, I can totally agree with Geert. I have lived and travelled extensively, for work and pleasure in multiple countries and have seen much off the beaten path...it ain't pretty in the muslim areas and it ain't getting any better.

A few europeans, a very few, recognize the depth of the problem but they usually keep their mouth shut. By far, the majority of people acknowledge that they would like less immigration, but they simply don’t understand that their culture is already dead in the water.

I routinely comment with people here that any of our current problems are insignificant and irrelevant as we’ll all be muslims soon anyways, and then the fun starts. Most think I am joking!

I also routinely comment that I will remain in Europe until I get kicked out. Again, most here think I am joking!

Anyone that believes Europe will remain european (at least without an enormous fight) for even the next 20 years is a complete idiot with their head up their azz.

This is why we need Tancredo's anti-shariah bill in the US. And the Brit Conservative's to win with their anti-shariah legislation as well. Other countries will follow suit.

However, that's just a start.

The movie 'Obsession' has been delivered to millions in the US. More mass public education like this is necessary. With that, I believe the supremacist Islamic colonization will be rejected. As it must be.

I'm reading Bruce Bawer's fine book about this very phenomenon, “While Europe Slept”.

A far from conservative American and Harvard educated homosexual, who felt that living with his partner in Europe would give him more freedom, Bawer moved there. Living in Holland and Norway changed his mind entirely. His detailed descriptions of the crass, juvenile, but potent anti-Americanism, smug socialism and political correctness, and the grovelling appeasement towards the anti-social, government funded, radical Muslim hordes is scary reading.

And still, Europe sleeps.

Reading the descriptions of the EU governments’ left-wing boneheadedness, their duplicity (including the complete collusion of their left-wing MSM), and their apparent suicide wish in this book is altogether like reading about left-wing politics and MSM in Canada. I was astonished at how his description of the political culture of EU countries is an astonishingly accurate assessment of Canadian political culture, including our scheming MSM.

The book could easily be renamed, “While Europe and Canada Slept”.

If the elites in the West and the idiots who keep electing them don't smarten up, there won't be a West. It'll serve these dunderheads right, but, by the time they realize they've cut off their socialist, American-hating noses to spite their smug, arrogant faces, it'll be too late. And the rest of us will go down with them too.

Then who will the Laytons, Dions, Duceppes, and Lizzie Mays blame? (I doubt that such deluded, cocksure hypocrites will ever have either the grace or cojones to look in the mirror.)

Kyrie eleison.

Could make for a good reality TV show, though.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2008/10/politics-will-be-about-managing-culture.html

Once a majority is achieved in Europe, watch for it, their first democratic act will be to abolish democracy.

I posted a video here on my blog a while ago. And I think while eyes are focused on a bogus carbon CO2 problem the real danger to our future is creeping in.

First - there are two causes, as I see it, of this trend. They are linked. The first is the introduction of a non-industrial tribal population and economy - to industrialism. How have they dealt with it? How have we dealt with it?

We dealt with it, stupidly, by actually accepting that a tribal perspective and economy can actually co-exist within an industrial one! It can't. Societal infrastructures exist only in an Either-OR situation. Your infrastructure is either industrial (non-tribal) or non-industrial (tribal). Period.

Multiculturalism accepts that a tribal mode of life can exist within an industrial economy! It can't. Result? Enclaves, balkanization of tribal modes..that exist on welfare. That is, the industrial economy, to which these people do not participate, supports them.

How long can one economy support a population that does not contribute to it? Not long. But, as long as the leftists naively support multiculturalism, which promotes non-contributing members of the population...this will continue.

Now - will it cause the collapse of Europe? Will the world become Muslim? I'm saying -against the doomsayers - NO. I repeat: NO. Why not?

Because, as a societal structure, Islam cannot economically support a massive population. It can support a non-industrial economy; that's actually what it, as an ideology, is focused on. A non-industrial, tribal economy and societal system.

It has no capacity for industrialism, which requires a large, flexible middle class, acting within debate and dissent, constantly innovating new technology, constantly expanding its economic base.

The fact that Islam as an ideology rejects science, reason, individualism - shows us that it is perfectly suited for a no-change, non-industrial economy based around stability and group-ism. Muslims in the West survive only by being economically parasitic on the industrial production of the West.

But - in the ME - tribalism has continued only by means of dictatorships and repression. Such cannot last - and the ME is already recognizing that it cannot continue to live off oil - which is technologically extracted by Western expertise - and must move on to the industrial age. It must modernize, must enable a middle class, must enable individualism and thinkers. You can see that happening in Dubai. And yes, in Iraq.

The ME will modernize faster than the protected, cocooned ghettoes of the West!

BUT - since Islam, as an economic and intellectual mode, cannot support thought and science, then, it cannot support large populations. So - the West cannot move into, itself, being 'Muslim' - unless it reduces its population by, not millions, but by a billion.

Then - you have China - which has no intention of reverting to the feudal era that is Islam, but has one focus - capitalism and making money.
Same with India.

So- my prediction is that these enclaves in the West will reach a critical threshold; the West will realize that it cannot, economically, afford to support these parasistic communes. And the people in them, will also tire of the Cave.

So - my view is that the world won't become feudal and tribal! The world population is too large for that.

P.S. Doug Saunders, a Globe and Mail columnist in good standing, recently wrote a column saying that the views expressed in this thread are a laugh: “The 'Eurabia' myth deserves a debunking”, Online Edition, Saturday, September 20, 2008: “Baby-booming Muslim hordes take Europe? Rubbish!”

He even called the Church of the Renaissance a "terrorist" organization. No such thoughts about present-day Islam, of course.

Talk about rubbish!

Could be why the anti-immigration, far-right party took 18% of the vote in the recent Austrian elections. They may hold the balance of power in the Austrian parliament. Europe has a way of lurching from one extreme to the other and the push back may not be pretty.

Harper's immigration policy will attract disaffected, young Europeans to Canada because the Islamic invasion of Europe has reached the point of no return. Let the European socialists count on Islamic mercy when they try to create an Islamo-socialist society. It should be a laffer ...!!!

What has happened in Canada is muslim immigration has settled into the large cities, and what puzzles me is how they survive financially. The only thing I can figure out is they have been financed by ME petrodollars, because when a taxi driver owns a home and his wife stays at home with 4 children .. well that tells you he's being subsidized.

Are muslims in our midst the vanguard of Islam in Canada .. all financed by ME money???

WTF kind of hate are you posting here?

I happen to live in one of those "muslim ghettos" in Sweden; it's a very pleasant neighborhood. If there are "religious fanatics" here, I haven't met one. Most muslims I meet are what I'd call mildly religious; most religious extremism takes place in parts of the u.s. I believe.

Your post is total rubbish; pure hate for a people you know nothing about.

ET at October 2, 2008 11:18 AM

A good comment. Of course, the $64,000 question is what happens after the West realises it can't support the parasitic communes.

"The Europe you know is changing."

Eeeeeek!!! RUN AWAY!! RUN AWAY!!!

If you can get a copy of the documentary Obession?

It's interesting.

While Muslims move in, the young educated Germans and English are moving out in record numbers realizing their future lies elsewhere. These are the very people needed to fight for western democracy yet they are doing what any rational person does - finding a better place to live for them and their families.

Well, the threat is very likely exaggerated, but nevertheless there is a threat. I spend a lot of time in Europe, and I wouldn't be too worried (at least not now).

I am an optimist, e.g. as soon as people start to realize that sharia is being considered in their country, they will object and it will be stopped.

Also, many, probably most, muslims in Europe are not that interested in a theocracy.

As long as we in Canada, and the europeans, can continue to freely inform and debate, we're ok. (Which is why it is so important to stop the HRCs.)

ET:

Your usual good analysis!

I certainly don't disagree, but I think your analysis also points to another frightening possibility.

"So - my view is that the world won't become feudal and tribal! The world population is too large for that."

What guarantee is there that world populations must stay above the level necessary for industrialization? Would not large scale wars or societal collapse also bring huge population reductions? (shades of the "Four Horsemen")

However unlikely it may seem today, I don't think we can discount the possibility of a new "Dark Ages".

"maintaining the proper pessimistic attitude means that you are rarely surprised and never disappointed"
-Mad Mike

;)

HRC, Hallmarks of hate:

(1) The Powerful Menace Hallmark: the targeted group is portrayed as a powerful menace that is taking control of the major institutions in society and depriving other of their livelihoods, safety, freedom of speech and general well-being;
(2) The True Story Hallmark: the messages use true stories, news reports, pictures and reference from purportedly reputable sources to make negative generalizations about targeted group;
(3) The Predator Hallmark: the targeted group is portrayed as preying upon children, the aged, the vulnerable, etc.;
(4) The Cause of Society's Problems Hallmark; the targeted group is blamed for the current problems in society and the world;
(5) The Dangerous or Violent by Nature Hallmark: the targeted group is portrayed as dangerous or violent by nature;
(6) The No Redeeming Qualities Hallmark: the messages convey the idea that members of the targeted group are devoid of any redeeming qualities and are innately evil;
(7) The Banishment Hallmark: the messages communicate the idea that nothing but the banishment, segregation or eradication of this group of people will save others from the harm being done by this group;
( 8 ) The Sub-human Hallmark: the targeted group is de-humanized through comparisons to and associations with animals, vermin, excrement, and other noxious substances;
(9) The Inflammatory Language Hallmark: highly inflammatory and derogatory language is used in the messages to create a tone of extreme hatred and contempt;
(10) The Trivializing or Celebration of Past Tragedy Hallmark: the messages trivialize or celebrate past persecution or tragedy involving members of the targeted group;
(11) The Call to Violent Action Hallmark: calls to take violent action against the targeted group.

--------------

Well, from this list and given the ideology, jurisprudence, texts and historical facts of Islam and its founder in their fight against all non-Muslims in dar al Harb - The prisons should be full.

ET-- Interesting and I guess I agree with what you say, it sounds reasonable.

I guess where I have my big problem is why do we have to let one segment of our society, the left, drag us all down to rock bottom to wind up in the gutter like a common drunk before, I think the majority, see the light. The path we are following with the hardening of the line between the left and the reasonable is one of destruction of our western civilization as we know it. Are the left and the reasonable about to face off in more that words?

Ah Geert Wilders.

Solid credibility.

When it comes to objectivity, Wilders is the right wing equivalent of, I don't know, Kim Jong Il.

Its funny how he doesn't mention the rising racism in the Netherlands. How many of you here know that even government schools in the Netherlands deliberately dissuade colored children from attending their schools by using deterrent tactics such as waiting lists.

You cannot deny integration to a group and then complain about segregation. Consult people who actually know whats going on - like Christian Joppke, a Dutch scholar who taught at UBC, or Ellie Vasta, who has chronicled this issue exhaustively. Wilders is a bit of a joke - and to be taken about as seriously as you would take Jerry Falwell's views on judaism.

nellygoph - I don't think your post is substantiated by facts. Many of these ghettoes in Europe are fanatical, as evidenced by the preaching in some of the mosques, by the bombings, killings, car burning, carried out by these people, etc.

I think that they are far more fanatical than those in the US, because of the policy of multiculturalism, which isolates them, which moves them out of the productive economy, which refuses to integrate them. They revert, in this isolation, to fanaticism.

The US rejects multiculturalism. Australia, which used to accept it, has now also rejected multiculturalism and instead, focuses on diversity - but - within an integration into and acceptance of the main tenets of Australian societal infrastructure.

However, as I said, it cannot last. No fanatic system can reproduce itself; no fanatic system can economically sustain itself. Cults last for the life of the leader. That's all. BUT - in the West, multicultural isolationism, which is actually a form of rejection, a form of racism, has to stop. These people have to be integrated into the economic, political and societal infrastructure.

BUT - this doesn't mean transforming the nation to Islam! And the reason for that is because Islam and industrialism are incompatible. What it means is that Islam has to move out of functioning as a societal, economic and political ideology to only a religious ideology.

This won't be easy, because the religious aspect of Islam is its weakest area, with almost all of it cribbed completely from the Judaic religion.
But the societal themes of Islam are functional only in a non-industrial society. So, it will have to change.

But, the West is waking up and starting to reject the isolationism of multiculturalism.

Again, just look at Islam from the point of view of a Man From Mars.
Can an ideology that rejects freedom of thought, science, dissent, innovation, reason - produce new technology? No.
Can an ideology that therefore rejects a middle class produce a growth economy? No.
Can an ideology that has no capacity to support an increasing population, nurture and keep it healthy, function when the population is increasing? No.

So- on this basis, Islam, as an ideology, can't be dominant in a world population of 6 billion.

At the moment, it is dominant only in an area which is not, in itself, industrial, but functions within a one-product 'industrialism'. Oil. Technologically extracted and processed not by Islamic ideas but by Western technology. That can't last.

In the West, it is parasitic, living in enclaves within Western industrialism. That can't last, because a critical threshold will be reached when it is beyond the economic carrying capacity to support a non-productive proportion of the population.

So- I'm not as 'gloom and doom' as some of you. It will take time. What we are seeing is a tectonic shift, when one societal infrastructure, operating in a 7th century mode, meets up with a 20th century mode. That's a shock to both sides. But, the larger population can't revert in time. The world can't become feudal again. The global population is too large for any but an industrial economy.

Moroccan Organization: Many Moroccan Youngsters are Scum

"Driss el Boujoufi of the Union of Moroccan Muslim Organizations in the Netherlands (Ummon), has said that “whole generations of Moroccan youngsters grow up as scum because the Dutch do not enforce their norms and values in the public domain.” Recent information from the town of Den Bosch shows that, of the 20 groups of problem youngsters in the town, the four most criminal ones are of Moroccan origin and Moroccans are over- represented in police statistics on youngsters aged between 12-24. A spokesman of the local Moroccans criticized the soft approach of the local municipality, complaining that millions of Euros are spent for useless projects while serious issues are neglected.."

From Bad News from the Netherlands

http://tinyurl.com/42hudn

Scrolling through the posts, we find that the same dead horse is being beaten. Lots of unneccesssary conjecture and unsubstantiated allegations. There are a few intelligent posts here, but a lot of this is weak on substance - just a lot of anger.

Firstly, there seems to be the impression that multiculturalism was adopted in Europe in order to "appease" (penny) minorities. This is incorrect. Multiculturalism was implemented because of the "Temporary worker" programs. After WWII, the Netherlands needed to supplement its workforce to start economic growth. Multiculturalism was justified on the grounds that it ensured that temporary workers would be able to reintegrate into their home societies once they had finished their work and left. But these temporary workers never left. It was a shortsighted policy without altruistic motives.

In the Dutch case, this is compounded by the issue of Pillarization - Dutch govenrment has a tradition of allowing different groups to do as they wish since 18th century. This is because they had large catholic and protestant populations. Pillarization was brought into 1960s mostly out of inertia, but it was reversed in 1992 or thereabout.

"Muslim immigration is even a source of pride within ruling liberal parties."

This is bizzare statemnt not grounded in fact. Unsubstantiated nonsense.

"Multiculturalism accepts that a tribal mode of life can exist within an industrial economy! It can't. Result? Enclaves, balkanization of tribal modes..that exist on welfare. That is, the industrial economy, to which these people do not participate, supports them."

Yes. And No. As recently as 2002, widespread racims was rampant - ie a colored person would earn less than a white dutchman for doing the same job. A Human Rights Commission has belatedly come into existence to investigate such discrimination. Furthermore, local authorities have been known to encourage "white flight". But yes, multiculturalsim, in Dutch context, assumes tribal mode of living can coexist. In fact this was not even deliberated upon. The aim was to ensure people could return to their home culture. They were kept insulated. Deliberately.

"But - in the ME - tribalism has continued only by means of dictatorships and repression. Such cannot last - and the ME is already recognizing that it cannot continue to live off oil - which is technologically extracted by Western expertise - and must move on to the industrial age."

I am in agreement. However, you are perhaps understimating how well these dictatorships have invested their money - from the Carlysle Group to English Football Clubs. They will always have a strong flow of money coming in from abroad - even when Oil stops.

"So- my prediction is that these enclaves in the West will reach a critical threshold; the West will realize that it cannot, economically, afford to support these parasistic communes."

This is already the case in Netherlands. Indeed, it has been case since late 1990s. However, Geerts and his ilk are not interested in finding a workable solution - they are only interested in winning votes by stirring up excitable elements. This in turn is creating unneccessary unrest and detracting from problem. Much like some of the posts on this thread - which seek only to insult, not address.

" P.S. Doug Saunders, a Globe and Mail columnist in good standing, recently wrote a column "
Why not a link?

The 'Eurabia' myth deserves a debunking
DOUG SAUNDERS From Saturday's Globe and Mail September 20, 2008
http://tinyurl.com/3r6bvb

Or read this --

The decadent, doomed society portrayed in today's popular anti-Europeanist literature exists only in the minds of certain North American conservatives
Dan Gardner The Ottawa Citizen Saturday, March 08, 2008
http://tinyurl.com/3z2hpo

."San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering 25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just 12 years from now. Bernhard Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century."

Yeah, well guess what - they don't glorify abortion and contraception the way the West does. The West has a birthrate that's barely at or slightly below replacement. Muslim families far exceed that.

When conservative Christians have more than 2 kids, they're labeled "breeders" who should to be sterilized - for the good of the planet and all that.

We're contracepting ourselves into extinction.

Mosque Warns of Muslim Youngsters with Extremist Ideas

"The radical As' Soenah mosque in The Hague has informed the Dutch Intelligence Service AIVD, that they are concerned about a group of 15-20 Muslim youngsters who presented extreme positions in mosques and have now disappeared. This was confirmed by Municipal Councilor Abdoe Khoulani."

More from..Bad News from the Netherlands

http://tinyurl.com/5xjuap

ET, I apologize, but I must nitpick.

"Many of these ghettoes in Europe are fanatical, as evidenced by the preaching in some of the mosques, by the bombings, killings, car burning, carried out by these people, etc."

This is not substantiated by fact. In the French banlieu riots, the perpetrators were not Muslim, or, indeed colored. While the media has attempted to portray them as immigrants, white frenchmen were involved.

In Britian, the race riots were, as name suggests, racially-based - Asian versus White. Not Muslim versus white. You are picking isolated instances and portraying them as the norm. This is not the case. England is not burning. Holland is not burning.

"They revert, in this isolation, to fanaticism."

This is true.

"The US rejects multiculturalism."

This is not true. Multiculturalism is alive and well at the local level (Minority language services etc). It is not a declared policy as it is in Canada and Australia, but, like the UK, it is implemented at the local level. One needs to be clear with what multiculturalism is here. It is practiced in US, without US having it as official policy.

nellygoph & Van der Waart - it all boils down to this, over the years enough information has crept across the ocean to repudiate your comments. Present demographic facts don't lie nor are the demographic projections that far off. Native Europeans simply aren't meeting replacement levels while Muslims are outbreeding them. It is and will increase as a major cultural dislocation wrought with problems. Gates of Vienna is a site that has documented the problem with the testimonies of people in place. You need to spend some time there. It's not just Gert Wilders' observations.

That the two of you showed up with emphatic denials so quickly is odd. It's downright suspect.

van der waart - I fully agree with you that multiculturalism in Europe was based around the temporary worker program - and Europe didn't know how to deal with their not leaving. European multiculturalism isolates them into ghettoes and does not permit them to move into the middle class economy.

Canadian multiculturalism, a product of the Trudeau (and Quebec based) era in Canada is equally isolationist. Quebec, as a province, has the lowest ratio of immigrants, and particularly 'visible minority' immigrants in the country - and Quebec, alone of the provinces, has complete charge of its own immigration.

But Canadian multiculturalism, translated from this Quebec rejection into Ontarian sophistry, is equally isolationist but views the newcomers as a 'relic of their old country' and insists on them remaining 'as they were' without change or integration.

mad mike - why won't the world reduce its population and become feudal? Well, consider societies as similar to biological systems, which over time, became more complex, moving from single cells to complex organisms. You cannot move backwards from complexity to 'simplicity' without getting rid of a lot of mass/matter in the process.

So- can you get rid of half the world's population via some..catastrophe? Always the possibility of course.

But, can you get rid of the knowledge base? No. So, you can't revert to a non-industrial mode of organization which has no knowledge of industrial technology. Therefore, IF the world's population was reduced by 60%, that doesn't mean a feudal system. It means a generation of hard work to rebuild industrialism.

Kindly remember as well that China and India, as part of this global 'biological organism' and are far more immune to Islamic conversion than the West.

Van der Waart

I'm sure some Europeans do display forms of racism towards muslim. But muslim can be racist as well.

In Århus, Denmark´s largest City but one, there is the quarters of bad reputation called Gjellerupparken. It is mainly inhabited by violent Muslim immigrants, but there also was a colony of Greenlanders, Eskimos.

Århus Stiftstidende, 5. juli, 2008 : “Shouts in the street like: »f*ck home to Greenland, this is our Gjellerup «, are quite common, as well as it is quite normal that Arab youngsters throw fireworks at them.
http://euro-med.dk/?p=1448

Stop the Ethnic Cleansing of Greenlanders!
by Baron Bodissey

Last Saturday a group of demonstrators, under the leadership of SIOE, converged on Aarhus in Jutland to protest the racist behavior of local Muslim immigrants. The issue that sparked the protest was a series of violent attacks by Muslims against Greenlanders, who are native Danes, in a housing project in Gjellerup.
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/08/stop-ethnic-cleansing-of-greenlanders.html

euromuslim immigrant social intransigence is learned premeditated behavior....with 5% of the population they usually receive nearly 40% of the state social welfare benefits.

the phenomenon is a conspiracy plain and simple.

lookout: and others ...

Bruce Bawer wonders who's sleeping more deeply -- Europe or America.

ET

I concur with most of your comment regarding the eventual fall of Islam. I have always maintained(to no applause) that the Jihad is actually about insecurity and Muslim women. Modern technology has made it impossible to completely hide the outside world from your subjects(see Soviet's wanting blue-jeans in the 80's). It is this access to information that has empowered Muslim women, and this same access to information that will undermine Islam. The only defense (and an impotent one) is to lash out and scape-goat the west as an evil entity that is destroying the fabric of their society. They deny that women can be individuals and can contribute in non-traditional ways. The reality is, unless they destroy the west, they're mid-evil mindset will be destroyed. This is about Muslim men who wish to maintain control of Muslim women, the rest is propaganda.

These dudes know darn well that if they let their women out, they will find less hairy handsomer dudes.

My statement is always the same: The silence from feminists and gays is deafening.

Watch this interview with former KGB cat Yuri Bezmenov in 1985. He shows us in chilling detail how the western cognoscenti got brainwashed. Very timely considering the extreme danger of a new marxist wave in the US. What struck me most was his remark about how no matter what evidence we present to our liberal interlocutors, we get nowhere, which probably means that this very thread is pointless.

Er, Reagan didn't kill communism

And, oh, Warren Buffett on Charlie Rose last nite said he's an Obama supporter.

I'd like to go on, but I must now go shoot myself.

This is all true and well documented and factually supported in Steyn's "America Alone".

Nice try:

"WTF kind of hate are you posting here?

I happen to live in one of those "muslim ghettos" in Sweden; it's a very pleasant neighborhood. If there are "religious fanatics" here, I haven't met one. Most muslims I meet are what I'd call mildly religious; most religious extremism takes place in parts of the u.s. I believe.

Your post is total rubbish; pure hate for a people you know nothing about.

Posted by: nellygoph at October 2, 2008 11:31 AM"

Tell me Nelly, why is it that when one walks down the street in India, that one only sees Indian faces? When one walks down the street in Yemen, one only sees Yemeni faces. When one walks down the street in Shanghai, one only sees Chinese faces. Etc Etc. But, come to any Western country and White caucasians are very quickly becoming the minority. Yes, nice, very nice.

Me No Dhimmi:

Wow. Excellent, if frightening, link.
The whole thing, in a nutshell, right from "the horses mouth".

And that was recorded 23 years ago; the process is moving along exactly as he predicts, it appears we are well into stage 2.

I'm reminded of the ancient Chinese curse: "May you be born in interesting times"

Mac,
"why is it that when one walks down the street in India, that one only sees Indian faces? When one walks down the street in Yemen, one only sees Yemeni faces. When one walks down the street in Shanghai, one only sees Chinese faces. Etc Etc."

Well, I don't know about Yemen, but in India you see a lot of different faces, and even if they look "the same" to outsiders, India is an incredible mix of peoples, races, and faiths. And a reasonably successful one too.

When I was in Shanghai this spring, I saw many foreigners, and their numbers will likely grow.

When I was in Dubai this summer, it was interesting to notice that something like 80% of the population is foreign.

In Saudi there is are large groups of foreigners, western, indians, philippinos, etc.

And in Canada, I see not only beautiful Scandinavian looking faces (like mine), but also pale brits, dark haired irish, cigarette smoking frogs, indians, chinese, hispanics, jamaicans, etc etc, and so far the country seems to work quite ok. (Just get rid of those HRCs.)

The focus should not be on race and nationality, but on religion and extremist ideologies. That latter can be a terrible combination.

Mac..."most religious extremism takes place in parts of the u.s. I believe. "...get a clue. Muslim killing Muslim and anything that can't move in the ME. So the truck-bomb outside the hotel in Islamabad was Bush's fault? You deserve your burkha.And with any luck,this time NA will NOT be bailing your asses out,like in WW1 and WW2!

Muslims the religion of peace.
"The figures are stark. An average of 112 cars a day have been torched across France so far this year and there have been 15 attacks a day on police and emergency services."
Action Police, a hard-line union, said: “We are in a civil war, orchestrated by radical Islamists.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article607860.ece

mac - just a note, but comparing India and Yemen, which are nations, with a city, Shanghai, is a bit much.

However, you are quite wrong; there are a lot of foreigners in India - in the big cities. And certainly in Shanghai, which is an very cosmopolitan city.

Furthermore, in the majority of western cities, you won't find 'visible minorities', for immigrants tend to go only to the largest cities.

What you are ignoring in your attempt to somehow denigrate others, is the nature of immigration. The desire of people, if they can, is to move from an unsustainable country and economy to a sustainable one. Therefore, until India moved into industrialism - why would a Westerner move there? Same with other countries.

In the ME - there are a LOT of foreigners, because these societies haven't educated their people well enough for them to take over the industrial operations of their own countries. That will change in, let's say, 20 years.

North American nations are immigrant nations, because they offered any and all the opportunity to be middle class - and to move immediately into an industrial economy.
India wasn't industrial; Yemen wasn't industrial and so on.
China IS now industrial - and don't ignore China. There are lots of foreigners there now, in the big cities, and lots of investment.

With regard to Islam, again, this is a medieval ideology and it requires modernization. Isolating its followers won't work; insisting on integration if they are immigrants is necessary. The ME itself has no choice but to modernize.

"The ME itself has no choice but to modernize.

Posted by: ET at October 2, 2008 3:40 PM "

Very well said ET. But what will it take to modernize them? They seem to be quite happy with their 7th century culture. Otherwise,why would the females over here be wearing the burlap sacks? Why are they always two paces behind their "man"? I think it not so much a culture that has to change,but a cult that must be changed.

nellygoff,

It seems you know little about your own country.

Fjordman: "According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå, it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. According to these statistics, almost half of all perpetrators are immigrants. In Norway and Denmark, we know that non-Western immigrants, which frequently means Muslims, are grossly overrepresented on rape statistics. In Oslo, Norway, immigrants were involved in two out of three rape charges in 2001. The numbers in Denmark were the same, and even higher in the city of Copenhagen with three out of four rape charges. Sweden has a larger immigrant, including Muslim, population than any other country in northern Europe. The numbers there are likely to be at least as bad as with its Scandinavian neighbors. The actual number is thus probably even higher than what the authorities are reporting now, as it doesn't include second generation immigrants. Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm, who has investigated violent crimes in Svea high court, found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists were born on foreign soil or by foreign parents."

70% of Spain's prison population is Muslim. For France, over 50%.

The core of the problem is the foundationally violent, supremacist and political ideology of Islam - and it's prophet - whom Muslims are all commanded to emulate. This is proven in the Islamic trilogy and resulting historical fact played out over the last 1350 years.

But, of course, apologists don't deal with facts. They'd rather let fly with ad hominem attacks:

"Wilders is a bit of a joke - and to be taken about as seriously as you would take Jerry Falwell's views on judaism."

Refute what he says in Fitna, for example, with facts if you're so sure of yourself.

Hugh Fitzgerald has a good question:

"But no one who is both intelligent and well informed can deny the truth of the following sentence:"

The large-scale presence of Muslims in the countries of Western Europe has led to a situation that, for both the indigenous non-Muslims and for other, non-Muslim immigrants, is more unpleasant, more expensive, and more physically dangerous, than would be the case without that large-scale Muslim presence.

Take that last sentence. Admit its truth. And now refresh your memory about a statistic or two. Recall, for example, that in 1960 there were 1,500 Muslims in The Netherlands; in 1970, 1500; in 1997, 400,000; in 2008, more than one million. Recall as well the great and continuing spread between Muslim and non-Muslim birthrates. Ask yourself what it costs the welfare states to support these huge families, which take advantage of every conceivable benefit, and then some, even as they fill up the prisons, and of course keep the security services and the attendant personnel (detectives, judges, lawyers) expensively occupied.

Now ask yourself whether or not the legal and political institutions, the social arrangements, the museums and universities, the architectural monuments, all of the artifacts that are the result of the freedom of artistic expression and the encouragement of free and skeptical inquiry (philosophical, scientific) that are, in every conceivable way, flatly contradicted by the letter and spirit of the Sharia, of Islam, are worth preserving. And if so, what do you think should be done to preserve them? What is licit, and what do you think is not licit?

Ask yourself. Think.

said it before will say it again. we will have to fight our own to mremain free. all the esoteric discussions will get you nothing. you will lose.

Mac. You should go visit India, and Shanghai. You see all nationalities there, like you do in Canada or Europe.

My original comment in this thread was just about the ridiculousness of the post. Muslim migration in Europe is a complex issue, and one paragraph spewing muslim hatred does nothing to discuss the issues at hand.

I'm a Canadian and just did some travels in the middle east, and like everywhere I've been on this planet, I always run into nice, friendly people. Muslims I met on this trip were no different.

Don't paint a billion people with the same brush because of a few extremists, or because they have trouble integrating into Europe. Any north american would have challenges integrating into Europe. Extremism is an ugly thing, but so is some of the hatred on this web page.

However, Geerts and his ilk are not interested in finding a workable solution...

Oh, come on, Van der Waart, you sound like the classic elite lefty politician/ bureaucrat/academic, the very people that have been fiddling while Rome burns on this issue. What part of the demographics do you not understand? What part of the catastrophic displacement of native Europeans by a group that are anti-secular by religious dogma, understand you only in a dhimmi context, and have religious permission to unleash violence on you to justify their religious ends.

Please. A big influx of a group with those cultural/religious characteristics would be a calamity anywhere on the globe. In fact it is one in places where Mulim numbers gain traction over their non-muslim neighbors.

What's the coveted "solution" that is being dismissed? Gert Wilders has every right to be a part of the dialogue. That's if you are being genuine in seeking an all-points-of-view democratic forum. Trotting out Kim Jong Il, Jerry Falwell and racism to stop the dialogue here is so hackneyed and tells me that you are very disingenuous. And, because the Dutch were racist in their past doesn't mean they must forfeit control of their future.

I watched a PBS program here in Canada a couple of days back. The presenter (an American) was travelling through Europe. He started out in Amsterdam at the train station and went through Germany. Having been in these places recently it struck me as odd that the people in the film didn't represent the ethnic breakdown that I would expect to see in such places. There were far too many white people! At the end of the program it showed it had been filmed in 2000. Then I realised just how much things have changed in a few short years. I no longer recognise London now. It has not changed for the better. The impending financial collapse will really throw a spanner in the works and already we have seen the rise of the right wing in Austria. trouble is coming mark my words.

just thinkin - yes, it is a kind of cult, isn't it?

In the ME - why does it have to change? Because they can't sustain their population within a non-industrial economy. And..the oil won't last. At present, the oil revenues are being redistributed to the population; it silences them. But it keeps them out of any political or economic power; that's what has led to Islamic fascism.

The ME externalized this fascism against the West. Bush pushed it back into the ME - and the fight is now between the fascists and 'modernizers' - but within the ME. The modernizers will win; you can't go back to the 7th century, no matter how romanically pure it seems in your fictional words.

Over here, in the West, we have enabled 'blocs' of Muslims to remain economically and culturally isolate. Economically isolate because they are funded by grants and welfare - rather than having to face the integration required in the workforce. Culturally isolate because we have rejected their integration and encouraged them to remain 'isolate' and 'different'.

Such isolation and such differentiation leads to anger on the part of the second generation. They want to fit in, not be pushed out as 'diverse and different'.

penny - I think that van der waart (obviously Dutch) is speaking in a very rational and objective manner. Not in the least 'leftist'.

The lesson from this that we should understand is that the situation is the making of Europeans, who lack the will to deal effectively with the extremist ideology of Islamism. Instead of insisting on the integration of all and deporting the extremist elements, they turned a blind eye. Of course when one is ashamed of one's culture and heritage, one promotes the multicultural myth. Therefore I suggest that this internal sickness is the real threat to Europe rather than the Muslims, who are simply a result of it.

I fear that neither Canada nor the US appear to have learned anything from Europe's demise. One only has to take note of the election campaigns taking place in both countries to observe that not a single candidate from any of the major parties is addressing anything of importance. In Canada where we continue to witness the elimination of our traditional freedom of expression and of the press along with the internet, there is silence. Instead of promoting less government, they promote more government interference, meddling and intervention. And the list goes on. We have lost the two elements which most contributed to the greatness of Western civilisation; individual freedom and a free market. So I say we are no better than the Europeans when it comes down to it.

van der waart posts comments like this:

"When it comes to objectivity, Wilders is the right wing equivalent of, I don't know, Kim Jong Il."

This is not rational in the slightest. In fact, in all of his posts he has only stated his opinion and made assertions without any factual support.

I've asked him to refute 'Fitna', for example, with facts. So far, this has been met with silence.

Based on that, I'd agree with Penny, regardless of the more or less civil tone he has taken. He's a drive-by leftist.

BTW, ET,

I'm not a fatalist concerning the ideological problem that Islam is presenting in the west, either. However, the solution will require legislation such as Tancredo is pushing in the US and the Brit Conservatives are promising. In fact, it will require a lot more. And it may very well become bloody, before it's resolved.

You've stated your opinion on numerous occasions:

"We dealt with it, stupidly, by actually accepting that a tribal perspective and economy can actually co-exist within an industrial one! It can't. Societal infrastructures exist only in an Either-OR situation. Your infrastructure is either industrial (non-tribal) or non-industrial (tribal). Period.

How long can one economy support a population that does not contribute to it? Not long. But, as long as the leftists naively support multiculturalism, which promotes non-contributing members of the population...this will continue.

Now - will it cause the collapse of Europe? Will the world become Muslim? I'm saying -against the doomsayers - NO. I repeat: NO. Why not?

Because, as a societal structure, Islam cannot economically support a massive population. It can support a non-industrial economy; that's actually what it, as an ideology, is focused on. A non-industrial, tribal economy and societal system."

Fine. However, what will need to be done? Anti-sharia and anti-political Islam legislation? Ending multiculturalism? Outlawing leftist political parties? Or, will it simply happen by osmosis?

Islam has succeeded for 1350 years as a parasitic culture. It is continuing to do so, except now the host is western civilization. Does not the billions in foreign aid, welfare and constant capitulation to their demands, translate as jizya and dhimmitude?

penny - I think that van der waart (obviously Dutch) is speaking in a very rational and objective manner. Not in the least 'leftist'.

Perhaps after his first post, injecting Kim Jong Il, Jerry Falwell wasn't a good start. Gert Wilders isn't suggesting a Third Reich solution to the problem, he is stating the stark reality for which he's being vilified as a radical unfairly.

I'm very curious as to what is the "workable solution" that Wilders is obstructing? My point is that he should have a seat at the table in verbalizing his opinion.

Let's agree to disagree.

Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, Dubai are examples that even 7th century tribals can master petro dollars, banking, derivatives, hedge funds and do very well. Islam is adapting to the modern age and keeps their unique toxicity. And, the US hasn't been a "nation of immigrants" for a long time. There are limits to that myth.

nellygoph:

You should go visit India, and Shanghai. You see all nationalities there, like you do in Canada or Europe.

Which means nothing in the context of actual immigration. There as many international workers in both places that aren't immigrants, big difference. There are a lot of Chinese now in Africa exploiting their commodities, it means nothing in the context of immigration. They aren't staying. And, we all meet nice people in foreign places, it comes with the territory of just passing through. I'm sure I'd be treated with warmth and hospitality if as an American I passed through Iran. It doesn't change their goverment's essential wish to see people of my ilk dead. Islam's attitudes toward non-Muslim's are at core dangerous to me in spite of their culture of hospitality.

...here's a predicition:

If we, the West don't smarten up with the Muslim and Political Correctness issues, we'll be happy when the Chinese come.

You might be right, tomax7. The Mongol horde, led by Genghis Khan, certainly knew how to deal with them.

no penny, because SA uses 'petro dollars' is not a sign of it, as a sociopolitical structure, adapting to an industrial economy. The only proof of adaptation is allowing the population to form a middle class. That means democracy. At the moment, SA is two, not three, class. It is tribal; it has a hereditary elite tribe that is dominant - and the rest of the population.

Dubai and SA are not comparable. The UAE and Dubai are attempting to move out of tribalism and into a modern infrastructure.

Sorry- but the US began as an immigrant nation, and it continues to enable immigration. By this I mean that you can come to the US and immediately become a member of the middle class. You can't do that in Europe.

irwin daisy - Islam was not parasitic when it was operating as a pre-industrial, agricultural sustenance economy in the ME and Africa. The problem with Islam is that it is primarily a 7th c. tribal sociopolitical and economic system - that was set up to be immune to change - by defining it as a religion. It has very little 'religious' about it, and most of that is lifted completely from the Judaic beliefs.

By setting up a belief system as outside of change ..wow..that's difficult. But, it has to change because it can't support a modern economy.

What needs to be done in Europe? Rejecting multiculturalism. And, insisting on integration within the local national laws. Allowing and insisting that the 'isolate blocs' of immigrants integrate and be middle class. In Europe, they were deliberately isolated as low class temporary workers.

The ME will, now that Bush has enabled democracy, sort itself out and change. It has no choice. It cannot repress a population that large; it has to empower them, ie, allow a middle class to develop.

nellygoph said this (not mac)
" most religious extremism takes place in parts of the u.s. I believe."
In North America we have critters called gophers that hide under ground. nellygoph you would have to living underground to make that kind of statement.It's not true.Hardly worth discussing.

Amy...good point. Canadian families are having their 1.2 children.Christian and Muslim families are having the 2+.
Another factor in this coming change is the high rate of abortion in the western world, but not the ME.

Check out The Demographic Winter.

penny,

Geert is a politician who wants votes. He is what you call a rabble rouser. Dutch politicians are not blind to the problem. They know what is going on. This debate started in Netherlands long before September 11th. Geert is not a constructive voice.

In any democratic nation, taking such a stance against a single minority group can set dangerous precedent. Classic lefty or righty is your opinion. The issue here is not just about Muslim and west - it also affects relationship between majority and minority. If you can target one, you can target all. At heart of htis issue is idea of citizenship. Are all citizens equal or do citizens of a certain group become less equal? Do they have same rights? And most importantly, can citizenship be stripped?

Law is currently blind to religion, and that is the way it must remain. Geerts wants to change this by focusing on one religion. Whatever the merits of this, the danger of the precedent it sets is too important to ignore. Hence my assertion that Geert is not lookign for a workable solution. Sane Dutch politicians are balancing a host of issues here.

"Gert Wilders has every right to be a part of the dialogue. That's if you are being genuine in seeking an all-points-of-view democratic forum. Trotting out Kim Jong Il, Jerry Falwell and racism to stop the dialogue here is so hackneyed and tells me that you are very disingenuous"

I apologize. I did not mean to insinuate that he should be silenced. At the same time one must factor in his starting position before accepting his analysis as objective. In the same way that you would, on basis of your writing, adjust when reading what a lefitst has written.

Irwin Daisy,

"In fact, in all of his posts he has only stated his opinion and made assertions without any factual support."

I have pointed you towards the sources for looking up facts. Ellie Vasta, Christian Jopkke, Mark Verkuyten etc. There is much literature on this subject. It is very topical in Netherlands.

"I've asked him to refute 'Fitna', for example, with facts. So far, this has been met with silence."

You are too quick to judge. I had more pressing issues at hand. My response to this has not changed. I see as little point in refuting this as I do in refuting Michael Moore documentaries. They are entitled to their views. I do not feel need to subject myself to these views.

"Gert Wilders isn't suggesting a Third Reich solution to the problem"

I stand by my contention that the issue here is about citizenship and the relationship of majority with minority. When policy makers and law makers consider this, they must consider precedent they are setting in this regard. Geerts is not saying anything unknown or unique. He is presenting it in a way that will boost his political profile. People more concerned with the future aree dealing with this issue in more pragmatic way - that is to put forth a solution that does not set a dangerous precedent for all minorities. At heart of this, is all citizens are equal regardless of religious beliefs.

"Islam was not parasitic when it was operating as a pre-industrial, agricultural sustenance economy in the ME and Africa. The problem with Islam is that it is primarily a 7th c. tribal sociopolitical and economic system - that was set up to be immune to change - by defining it as a religion. It has very little 'religious' about it, and most of that is lifted completely from the Judaic beliefs."

Islam's success depends on shariah and a major part of that is the dhimmification and jizya extracted from host populations. It has never produced anything original. It is and always has been parasitic. Supremacism is the key.

Furthermore, given it's Beduin, desert beginnings, it hardly had any agrarian background, or knowledge. Mohammad got his financial start by pirating caravans, as usual. Then, expanding into slavery. This is why they slaughtered the men and saved the women and young children.

Agree with the religious component being lifted from Judeo/Christian belief (as well as various other beliefs, such as Sabianism). Islam is, if anything, a heretical sect, originally known as Hagarism. Perhaps, to a degree, to revenge and justify Ishmael's illegitimacy.

" most religious extremism takes place in parts of the u.s. I believe."

I find it hard to believe anyone would be silly enough to believe this, more likely it's just a cheap shot. (Shot? bad choice of words...)
Check out the news on any given day; islamic extremists detonate bombs all over the globe, and are quite proud of it.
Meanwhile, it seems quiet in the United States, although there are those Christian "extremists" who smile and ask if I've found God. A little cloying, but not dangerous and I enjoy people who say they'll pray for me rather than threaten to cut my head off.

Europe was okay when it was sperate and independent nations now its the EUROPEAN SOVIET UNION and its less free its just so unforunate for them

ET,
"What needs to be done in Europe? Rejecting multiculturalism. And, insisting on integration within the local national laws."

Exactly right.

Geerts wants to change this by focusing on one religion.

As well he should because Islam is a political entity being foolishly afforded religious protection. And, tolerance of intolerance isn't a virtue. Islam is anything but tolerant, but, sadly your offspring will find that out in due time.

Personally I think Holland is a goner. Those that can immigrate will, the remaining natives will need to cut a deal for the best dhimmi terms that they can get in another generation or two. I'm not trying to be insulting, it's just my honest opinion.

penny, perhaps you are wilfully ignoring the core problem here or you simply do not understand it. Even if you take the religious aspect out, at the end of the day the issue boils down to the treatment of a minority in a democratic state. Precedents have to be set carefully. This is about Dutch democracy, not Islam.

Wilders and his folk claim to be concerned only about Islam, but this is sadly not the case. His supporters lack the sophistication to distinguish between Islam and other religions. They establish hostility by skin color. They do not ask individuals if they are Muslim or not - it is simply assumed that they are on the basis of appearance. Wilders, and many far right politicians have been adopting a very simple tactic. Set a precedent against Islam while public opinion favours it. This precedent can then be used against any minority that is deemed "un-European". The dangers inherent in this approach are obvious to see.

Your opinion on Holland is either ill-informed or mis-informed. While it is topical in North America to talk about Eurabia, the numbers do not add up. Holland has 1 million Muslims in population of 17 million. This is hardly overwhelming.

Islam in Holland is not a uniform bloc either. There are divisions within Islam that further undermine its supposed agenda. In layman terms, some Muslims are Muslims in name only, while others are ultraconservative. They do not have same agenda.

And so on and so forth. Nor is the government blind to this problem - I should point out that the first warning about Islam was issued in early 1990s by the leader of the Dutch Liberal Party. At the same time, the Dutch government needs to address this issue without setting a dangerous precedent that you either do not want to accept, or do not want to comprehend.

As for Holland, I would leave it to the Dutch government, and not pay too much attention to local rabble-rousers like Wilders,.

penny, perhaps you are wilfully ignoring the core problem here or you simply do not understand it. Even if you take the religious aspect out, at the end of the day the issue boils down to the treatment of a minority in a democratic state. Precedents have to be set carefully. This is about Dutch democracy, not just Islam.

Wilders and his folk claim to be concerned only about Islam, but this is sadly not the case. His supporters lack the sophistication to distinguish between Islam and other religions. They establish hostility by skin color. They do not ask individuals if they are Muslim or not - it is simply assumed that they are on the basis of appearance. Wilders, and many far right politicians have been adopting a very simple tactic. Set a precedent against Islam while public opinion is against Islam. This precedent can then be used against any minority that is deemed "un-European". The dangers inherent in this approach are obvious to see.

Your opinion on Holland is either ill-informed or mis-informed. While it is topical in North America to talk about Eurabia, the numbers do not add up. Holland has 1 million Muslims in population of 17 million. This is hardly overwhelming.

Islam in Holland is not a uniform bloc either. There are divisions within Islam that further undermine its supposed agenda. In layman terms, some Muslims are Muslims in name only, while others are ultraconservative. They do not have same agenda.

And so on and so forth. Nor is the government blind to this problem - I should point out that the first warning about Islam was issued in early 1990s by the leader of the Dutch Liberal Party. At the same time, the Dutch government needs to address this issue without setting a dangerous precedent that you either do not want to accept, or cannot comprehend.

As for Holland, I would leave it to the Dutch government, and not pay too much attention to local rabble-rousers like Wilders.

Van der Waart talks about Muslims. Others talk about the supremacist political ideology of Islam not being compatible with democracy.

See the difference?

Irwin, I have never seen such a one-trick pony be so proud to be a one-trick pony. It is not a compliment.

Wilders belongs to a supremacist political ideology that distinguishes between Whites and 'blacks' (the term used for colored people in Holland). He doesn't want just Islam out - he wants everyone out. Islam is the whipping boy of the day, and he is using it to set dangerous precedent. Mark my words - if he succeeds, it will not end with Islam.

While there may be a supremacist political ideology of Islam, it is far-fetched to suggest all Dutch muslims are supporters of such, as you are insinuating.

I have read your posts and I can only conclude that you like flogging dead horses. There is nothing new or original in any of those posts - they all repeat the same theme- inherent dangerous supremacism of Islam. You need only post that once. There is no need to respond to everything I write by repeating yourself. If you have something new to say, do feel free. Or else, this is like discussing issue with parrot that knows only one line.

Europe has been working and realized in this modern era where both individuals and governments are working to repay the banks, the more children a couple has the LOWER the standard of living they have. The Muslims have been moving into Europe, going on welfare and breeding like bunnies.

Sad but the meltdown of the financial world whether it is orchestrated by the banks or not will force governments to cut back or even eliminate welfare to tens of millions across Europe. The reaction by the Muslims who have grown to believe it is their right to live in Europe, be paid to do nothing and allowed to breed will precipitate the kind of backlash that MAY (possibly) save Europe from themselves. The moronic politicians will no longer dare blame the "systemic racism" of the Europeans as an excuse for the Islamic rioters. The backlash will be grassroots and will be the LAST opportunity to save the Western civilizations from a purely Mulsim Dark Ages that will last a thousand years.