I have suspected for a while that our society lacks the will, at least in the majority, to defend itself, that the west is in decline. This is another little tick in that column.

Some days it seems inevitable that at worst, I will be dressing my wife in a burkha, and at best, it will only be my daughters.

One thing is for sure, I will be damned before I spill any of my blood defending the cut and run lot.

I AM rather curious as to why Canadians are in Afghanistan in the first place. Where does it say that we ought to care what sort of hell a bunch of backward, clannish types clinging to a medieval society want to create for themselves? All anyone ought to be worrying about is containment.

I think we need to hear more from Harper on the logic of his announcement. Something does not add up. If it is all about the election then does he think he will gain more votes from wimpy Canadians than he will lose from people who supported the fight for freedom?

911-type containment?

The majority of the people of Canada, as sad as it is, do not support this mission. The parliament of Canada has voted to end the mission. Both are closely related to narrow minded hatred of America and Bush and ignore the UN mandate for what we are doing.

It is rich in the extreme for the MSM now to be flaying PMSH for doing what the people want and Parliament has voted on.

PMSH said the mission as we know it is over in 2011 - 2.5 more years. I agree.

It is time the Afghanis step. 9 years is enough time for them to get motivated and organized as a military force than can offer basic security - they don't need to be trained to execute complex Corps level combines Arms operations. Hell, we fought WW1 ans WW2 in ten years.

It is time our "allies" in NATO (some exclusions) stepped up. IF PMSH doesn't call them with a fixed deadline, they will be happy to sit back in the safe ares, pretend they contributing and be all pious & moral.

PMSH - the right move has been made. The key phrase (the mission as we know it is over) means we will still be involved, still support NATO and still continue to deliver on our mission.

Our mission has never been to defeat the Taliban, to occupy the country or be a permanent garrison.

The mission was and remains to buy some time for the Afghanis. The mission is being delivered on with the lives of our soldiers. 9 years is enough time.

We have other military priorities that need our attention. Our neighbour the Bear is awake form hibernation and he's grumpy, hungry and rich. Our North needs boots on the ground, submarines under the ice, ships in the Ocean, patrol aircraft, helicopters and UAV's in the skies - none of which we have now.

Our troops have done a fantastic job in Afghanistan and continue to do so. They can be proud of their work and achievements - no NATO contingent is dong more on a per troop basis.

Canada can be proud, especially the families who have been impacted by loss or injury, that their efforts have not been in vain.

Our military has performed above and beyond the call.

First of all I am very proud of our troops and their commitment to the Mission. I would like very much for Stephen Harper to explain the thinking behind this announcement. What does he know that we do not?
cheerts Bubba

Bubba, He knows the Americans are coming: EN MASSE! Of course our MSM conveniently omitted to mention that while bashing Harper.

There is a surge in preparation. US soldiers in Iraq will be sent to the Ghan:

"The US President George W Bush says the United States will send another 4,500 troops to Afghanistan before the end of his presidency.

Mr Bush says a marine batallion originally intended for Iraq will arrive in Afghanistan in November.

The President says that while terrorists are stepping up their efforts in Afghanistan, the security situation in Iraq is continuing to improve and 8,000 American troops will come home by February.

"While the enemy in Iraq is dangerous, we have seized the offensive," he said.

"Iraqi forces are becoming increasingly capable of leading and winning the fight - as a result we've been able to carry out a policy of return on success.

"Reducing American combat forces in Iraq as conditions on the ground continue to improve"

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/news/stories/200809/s2360274.htm?tab=latest

Even though I would like the mission to end when it is completed,as in victory ,I do agree with much of what Fred above says. However this announcement and the Lizzie May backdown have left a sour taste in my mouth. I will still be voting for Harper,but I do hope that he is worth it and does not turn into conservative-lite.

I'm a huge supporter of our military and consider myself a "Red Ensign" Canadian - proud of our past heritage and ashamed of what Trudeau has turned our nation into.
Having said that, I agree with Ed Teach when he asks why we should be involved with such a backwards country. I hear the stories from our warriors about the good they are doing and the girls going to school and the medicines and health issues Canadian troops are assisting with, but I also see a civilization that doesn't look it's wants to change, doesn't look like it's going to change and the instant the good guys leave (that's us, the Americans and the Brits) they'll just revert back to killing each other, oppressing women and killing off gays. Sorry but they're savages.
I also agree with Kevin who says he won't spill any of his blood defending the cut n run lot. I wouldn't defend any pansy-a$$ Liberals either! But don't accuse me of being cut and run! Ten years (which is how long Canada will have been in Afstan in 2011) is long enough for the Stani's to start taking control themselves. If they can't get it together by that time then it's their problem, not ours.
Paul, how about containment such as banning young Muzzies from moving to or visiting Canada? Yeah, yeah, I know it'll never happen, but really that's what it's going to take. Killing them off over in Afstan isn't even half the battle. We have our own PM-head-chopping terrorists to deal with and the Afstan war hasn't helped now, has it?
I'm NOT suggesting we cut n run because we're scared of these little Shiites, I'm suggesting we bring our forces back to Canada. I'm tired of Cdn's dying on someone's very unappreciative behalf.

Grind a Grit: There's much less to president Bush's announcement than the media (US and Canadian) have been uncritically reporting--see this "Torch" post:

'Afstan: A very "quiet surge" indeed by US/Canadian "journalism"'

Mark
Ottawa

Couldn't agree more with you Fred, Harper was placed in a difficult situation by the outgoing Liberal government who committed us to this expedition. As a minority government he had little choice but to get a consensus from Parliament. The Liberals, NDP and the Bloc forced us into a withdrawl at a specific time, it may not have been Harper's choice but that is academeic. We are invoved in a UN sanctioned effort to democratize Afghanistan not a war of aggression, it cannot go on forever. We have neither the material nor manpower in this country to accomplish the task that we were assigned. Better to bring the troops home at the specified time in order to prepare and equip them for the upcoming religious wars that will occur in Europe in the next ten or fifteen years or so.

Atenor, I agree with you up to a point. My question to you is "why should we bother fighting for Europe?" They're doing it to themselves! I have relatives buried over there from both world wars. When are they going to learn to stick up for themselves?

I'm sure I'm going to get labelled a racist or uncaring bastard for my comments, but I have a hard time supporting people who
1. create their own problems (Europe) OR
2. are provided assistance but never stick up for themselves after that (the Afstani's).

Ed T

Evil will always find somewhere to prey on the weak. While it preys on the weak it festers and grows until it can move out an continue to prey on those that are weaker. Knowing this truth, to stand by and witness evil, is evil in itself. Evil must be eradicated, the only question is how much are you willing to spend in resources. Like anything in life, the cost is always in a state of inflation.

This is why Obumma's strategy to leave Iraq and then return if need be is ridiculous, why allow the enemy to recover and continue to fester?

"today, we are all Georgians"

J.McCain

I fail to see how this is an insult to the troops. There job as stated by Parliament, is done in 2011. Does it only make them feel better if this is a permanent job?

Doesnt make sense to me. It is time for Canada to rotate out of being the point of the spear in Afghanistan, we have done it well without a lot of support. I have no issue continuing but alternatively, it is fair for us to take a rest and regroup equipment and men. I think there are other battles coming.

"War is merely politics, by other means."

Clausewitz

True back then, still true today.

Which is why "Hope has two lovely daughters; anger and courage. Anger at what is wrong and courage to set things right."

St. Augustine of Hippo would know how to motivate Cornelius the Centurion. The other option is to be starved out by the Vandals.

h/t to Cjunk on the WILL to fight.

It is not that one goes looking for a fight, only that one finds it NECESSARY for self preservation.

Cheers

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht, Commander in Chief

Frankenstein Battalion
2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von Baden(Rheinisches) Nr.7(Saarbrucken)
Knecht Rupprecht Division
Hans Corps
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”

"Atenor, I agree with you up to a point. My question to you is "why should we bother fighting for Europe?" They're doing it to themselves! I have relatives buried over there from both world wars. When are they going to learn to stick up for themselves?

I'm sure I'm going to get labelled a racist or uncaring bastard for my comments, but I have a hard time supporting people who
1. create their own problems (Europe) OR
2. are provided assistance but never stick up for themselves after that (the Afstani's).

Posted by: Bacardi Breezer at September 12, 2008 4:44 PM "

Could not agree more.WE,as in Canada,have given enough blood over two wars to these elitist parasites called Europeans.They have created their own problems with their namby-pamby,hug-a-thug rules,they can damn well live by them,without our help.They will either grow-up really fast and defend themselves,or fade out as the loser civilizations,(countries) they are, and deserve.

Suspect Harper has discussed privately with "W" before throwing him under the bus publicly. Also, it may be about the mini-surge to Afghanistan, and your PM knows more about what is coming downstream than can be relayed around the world.

Thinking it through from a space-shuttle perspective, whether the Dims or the 'Pubs are in office, there is a day of reckoning coming. The U. S. cannot afford to continue fighting wars with only token assistance from the "old" European "allies." They're either in, or they're on their own. If they want to live under sharia law, be my guest. The best and brightest will continue to migrate here. The rest can return to enviro-heaven, living off the land in some form of bedoin, tribal enclaves. Me, I'll continue to row the gears through to triple digits whenever the opportunity presents itself, wander over to check out the latest releases with a foo-foo coffee at B & N before strolling home to the little house in the cornfields.

I hesitate to criticize the Afghan people since they have lost so many potential leaders from the ground up over the years and years of war. Same thing in Iraq. How many potential leaders were killed by Saddam and his henchmen. It is easy for us to ask why there is not enough of a new generation of leaders coming on or even educated people to be the professionals in society.

Still I believe since most of the other NATO countries have not stepped up, we must put a deadline. There will probably be other parts of the world where we can do our bit, make no mistake.

If there is enough security we can continue to supply aid and experienced help to rebuild the country.

PMSH (PM S-Head) Did this to gain seats in Quebec. Withih a heart beat of comming out ahead this turkey turned into a regressive conservative. He turned his back on the west and went after quebec votes. I personally will not vote in this election because there is no-one to vote for and I refuse to vote against thus giving some other "Honest politician" a buck seventyfive or what ever it is, it's at least #10.00 more than their worth.
It would do my heart good to see the west turn its collective back on this jerk and his wimped out party.

It is puzzling to me why some of the wealthiest countries in the world cannot seem to motivate a country like Afghanistan which is the poorest. Even the simplest of solutions like the old joke about stopping a revolution by hiring half the population to shoot the other half seems more logical than what seems to be going on there. Perhaps that is the key, except instead of hiring half the population to stop a revolution, they should hire half to start one.

Penny: There is no way, by any reasonable standard, that Afghans will be able to run their own affairs for the next 10 years ... not until this generation of children, the first ever educated one, hits adulthood. Of course, we'll be out 2011 ... so once again it'll all falls on the Yanks.

Cpl. Dustin Wasden, who I had the pleasure of teaching when he was a child, was killed in Afghanistan just this past month. This is what he said before he shipped out:

"Are we not doing it for the kids?"

Canadian soldiers know what it's about ... they know that Afghanistan is a barbaric place ... but they also know where the hope lies. Harper's focus is Quebec votes ... little else ... especially in light of his words to Canadian forces in 2007:

“I don’t see the United Nations telling Canada to leave on a certain date, or the Canadian military urging me to pull out on certain date, or the military families to do that,” he said. “I don’t see our allies urging us to do that. In fact I see allies like Australia that are increasing their commitment.”

I will still vote, but my ballot will be spoiled. This decision is an absolute slap to the face of every man and woman who has worn Her Majesty's uniform for this country.

This insistence on a deadline of 2011 is the manifestation of a combination of factors. The first is, unfortunately, short term political expediency or necessity, i.e. the Prime Minister is not, nor can he be a king. His power is limited by parliament and the electorate. Politics being "the art of the possible", PMSH faces a dilemma: advocate doing what he (hopefully) truly wants to do i.e. stay until the job's done and risk completely losing influence over events, throw in the towel, thereby pandering to short-sighted defeatists and possibly gaining greater parliamentary clout for the next four years, or advocate a middle term option in the hopes that other players in the western world can be made to see sense and take on a greater share of their collective responsibility.
The second is what I refer to as "overdomestication", a concept alluded to by Kate in her National Post column to the effect that what we need is a famine. There seems to be a misconception in Canada that wars/conflicts are like the Bridge Club -- "I don't think I want to go this week, honey." Wars are more like fires, fight them and risk being consumed or ignore them and be certainly consumed. The fire may be smouldering at a distance now, but make no mistake, we are the enemy of the Taliban and their Jihadist fellow travellers. We are their enemies for who we are. We don't have to do anything to be their enemies other than fail to submit to them absolutely. Even then, we'd probably find that the rules would keep changing. (See my previous posts on abuse).
As to why we should be there in the first place, I see a couple of compelling reasons, the first self interested, the second altruistic and the two inextricably linked. The Islamofascists hate us. They hate us in the same way as the Nazis hated the Jews -- slightly different "reasoning" but just as twisted and irrational. As such, they could and would do us far more injury if they had complete control over an independent, sovereign nation i.e. Afghanistan. It would be an excellent safe haven, provide them virtually unfettered, limitless finances, and a virtually limitless number of indoctrinees becoming recruits. If the present security situation is marginal, a Taliban-controlled Afghanistan would make our security situation nearly impossible. Containment would be practically impossible.
Altruistically, the Afghans are people too. We take some national pride in helping the poor, ignorant down-trodden of the world. Well, there they are. Given the choice, most people raised in a country with an educated population, a reasonably functioning economy, decent public health, an exposure to a variety of ideas and a democratic/representative government don't choose to suddenly go off and blow up people on the other side of the world for no reason other than that those people happen to be different. Suspicion and even animosity may exist to be sure. But we don't seem to be plagued by large numbers of Buddhist, Taoist, Shinto, Animist or Hindu suicide bombers demanding that we in the west submit to their world view. In short, if the Afghans are better off, we're better off. How long would this transformation take? I'd guess one to two generations. That's how long it took in Germany and Japan, (even less) and what a transformation! If anything they've gone too far the other way. The Germans appear to have gone from hellbent on militaristic territorial expansion and "lebensraum" to blind indifference to even their own long term self preservation.
This is not to say that "hot" operations need continue for two generations. But stabilization may take that long. We should be prepared for it.
Containment by contrast will pass the initiative wholly to the enemy in violation of a core principle of defensive warfare, aggressive action. It would allow the enemy to attack when they see fit, rest a recuperate when the see fit, probe, analyze, take a breather and experiment. It would push us into internal security measures which may transform us into something we may not recognize and almost certainly would not want. It is a formula for war without end.

I do fear that Stephen Harper is just what his opponents say he is: a little man, a kitchen autocrat,
without a grasp of the important issues, a political opportunist, without honesty.
He lacks the nutty integrity of Stephane Dion, who will pursue a policy he believes in, even if it wrecks his party and the country.

I'm wondering about some re-actions here. The 2011 date wasn't pulled out of hat this week.

I suspect that Harper will do whatever suits him and ignore the 2011 pull-out date just as readily as he ignored the "set-in-stone" election date. If he feels that staying in Afghanistan at that point is the right thing to do I'm pretty sure he will given his past performance on this file.

Nothing to get riled over.

bluetech: Parliament left a lot of wiggle room. It was an extension of the mission until 2011. The door was always open for a further "extension".

"I suspect that Harper will do whatever suits him and ignore the 2011 pull-out date just as readily as he ignored the "set-in-stone" election date. If he feels that staying in Afghanistan at that point is the right thing to do I'm pretty sure he will given his past performance on this file.

Nothing to get riled over."

Thats not the point. I don't want to see compromise any longer. What better oppertunity to argue the validity of the mission than during a national election? Lets have it, as a prime issue, front and center, and lets decide what exactly this mission is worth, and exactly what sort of will, we have, as a nation.

To Bacardi B. & Just T. , the reason to return to fight in Europe is because I'd sooner fight the enemy there than on St Catherine's, Yonge, or Portage and Main. If the appeasers in the west have their way we will be fighting another war, make no mistake. We have been accommodating other cultures for too long in the west, one only has to look at the way our media have been supporting the troops and our way of life to realize that it has already begun. Islamic protest in Europe over cartoons, no-go areas in Britain and France, a leader in an English church recommending Sharia law, mosques in all western countries being allowed to preach hate and racism to Muslims as religion, the list goes on and on. Make no mistake this is the 'Domino Principal' that America was afraid of happening in SE Asia, problem is it is not Communism at work here it is religion and that has been causing wars for thousands of years.

For all those for PMSH, please read this "Torch" post mentioned in the SDA post itself:

"A modest Middle Ground Proposal"

Mark
Ottawa

Fight; or Flight

"Great things are always within our reach.
Fight with me.
Fight with me.
Fight for what's right for our country."

John McCain RNC Convention 2008

As opposed to:

"2011"

Stephen Harper 09/12/08

Victory in Afghanistan was achieved with the overthrow of the Taliban way back in November of 2001. What is going on there now is a pointless and endless occupation, ostensibly to convert a nation of low-intelligence, ultraviolent, tribalistic death-cultists into peace-loving, liberal, democratic multiculturalists. It won't work, period.

Our troops have done an excellent job under the circumstances, but they cannot be realistically expected to change the very nature of Afghanistan. It's not in our national interest to try to micromanage the internal affairs of any foreign nation, particularly an utterly backward Muslim nation. The wisest course of action of course would be to ban all further Muslim immigration completely and permanently. Non-citizen Muslim residents and convicted criminal immigrants should be deported forthwith, and Muslim citizens should be paid off, say $20,000 each, to leave Canada forever. Those who choose to stay should know that our security services will be watching them like hawks.

Kudos to Stephen Harper for putting an end-date on this hopeless occupation. The Conservatives shouldn't be held responsible for this deeply unpopular mission, which was, let us remember, the Liberal Party's idea in the first place.

I'm not terribly concerned about Harpers announcement. Once again, narcissistic Canadians are over estimating their influence, Harpers comments will not hurt the war effort or endanger our troops. Harper has done exactly what he has promised, he's shown leadership(unlike Dion).

Has it occurred to anyone that Harper was serious when the Cons and the Liberals came together on this file? As others have mentioned this war is much bigger than we perceive, and contributions can be made in many ways and different places. People who are discussed by Harpers announcement need to take their foot off the gas for a few seconds. These people are trying to predict the future with very little information. You people appear to be looking for a reason not to vote Conservative and this issue is a convenient scape-goat.

Dion's silence on this is another example of the Liberals poor strategy, and Dion's lack of leadership or understanding of the term. Dion should have supported Harper publicly on this, that would have been consistent, instead he just looks like Dion. The Conservatives are not winning this election because they are so great, the Liberals are losing because they cannot show the slightest bit of stability. The one bill they actually voted for, they can't even stand up for. Harper knew this, THIS IS HIS STRATEGY, he is a political genius.

Liberal's poor strategy

oops

The fight in Afghanistan has barely begun. Together with Pakistan, it is the centre of the war against Islamic extremism. We should not be pulling out until the job is done. Rather than selecting arbitrary dates to leave, we should be re-examining our strategy to ensure victory. It's what the Americans did in Iraq and it is what NATO needs to do in Afghanistan.

I see this announcement as nothing more than what we in the military already knew. That being the end of the Battle Group rotations into the sandbox. The Battle Group only represents a portion of our comittment to Task Force Afghanistan (TFA) with the others large ones being the Opertional Mentoring and Liaison Team (OMLT) the Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team (KPRT) and the National Support Element (NSE). Unfortunately those in the general population and the media lack the basic understanding of a modern military and equate everything in TFA to the Battle Group and the end of its mission is seen as the end of Afghanistan as a whole. The MND made it clear that we would continue to have a mentoring and reconstruction role post 2011, which means that upwards of 2/3 of the CF elements would still be in theatre, and don't think that this means no more fighting and taking it to the enemy, the OMLT does the majority of the fighting these days as the mission has evolved. The goal has always been to hand over the responsibilities of the Battle Group as they currently exist to the Afghans (pet peeve of mine is seeing people refer to the people of Afghanistan as Afghanis, they are Afghans and their currency is the Afghani). I would suggest that everyone calm down and realise that this has been expected for a long time, and not to through away your vote in frustration based around the usual poor reporting of the msm.

Well Andrew, this member of the military utterly disagrees with you.

Harper is an complete disgrace.

This country deserves Dion.

Thank you, Andrew, for the helpful post. The UN-sanctioned mission to Afghanistan is the responsibility of NATO, made up largely of those cynical, indifferent, and unreliable nations that we have supported for over 50 years to which we still send soldiers. Canada has done more than its share in recent years in NATO's operations. I applaud Mr Harper for serving notice on NATO that if the Afghans need more military support after 2011, it should be coming from those allies whose carbon taxes, social services, and opinions on American politics are so dear to readers of the Globe & Mail.

Harper stay until yeat 2011 doing what?

what is the plan

this is not Canadian too much coffee break TIME
that they only have half an hour coffee tiem tehy will go every hour for break
what the plan is!!

just stay there so far in past 4 years what they did ?

how the money spend there? how many troop are there? is Canad got money from other organization to spend more for build teh hosue there

I met few Candain few years ago when we wnat to do any project we said ok let do this they move riht left and delay and do like turtel
and when we asked htem speed up they said oh you are focring or bossing us

now the TIME is money what they plan to do in that period stay thre play with fly or coffee break because may be Canda is so much snow and Afgnestan are warmer

in fact Afgani people i know lots of them in Canda are very hard working people but small percentage of them who were ruber real danger too I still hear there is not security not delvopment in real meaning there

stay there until 2011 is vage and wast time and money

Canda can do so many job there even made some manfcure there for use small pay labor there insted of bring labor to china or south america

we need more detail and plan Mr. Dear Haper
talk specific what is detail plan next?
over what cost you will stay longer and what we gain at the end of day?

I really when I see lazy some Canadian who never vlaue time is money because they purposly wast the time to say my job finish but never do good job because they do not like to made Afaniatan get devlope any thing theyo nly like to wast thier time for hope for doing nothing may be!!

Sorry Atenor but I disagree again. If fighting breaks out in Europe between the Muslims and the civilized world we can be in just as much trouble here. Fighting them over there isn't going to protect us over here. All the problems in Europe are caused by immigration and multiculturalism which is exactly what we have here.

for my in summarize of above
some one force Harper to do that misson by force that was not volenteer by Candaina for sure
eiter UN or Bush

now he stock he does not like to help Afgantan if he like to help them should do any job done so far he hate Muslim to get grow inright direction
Haper only wait and watch the time say 5Pm
my job done my 8 years finish every body back home

i saw so many in Canda do when they like to deal with Muslim intentionaly with full hate delaynot do the job on the time gossip bring dum group in team to not forward the project becaue they hate Muslim

as I said you neve expect Conservation or republication do help Muslim for morlity to like them they do to fix their past mistake to wash their hand we are not guilty that is all

otherwise past 4 years proof next 4 years haper will not going to do any job since he hate Muslim period he only like Ahmadidh mosque in Canda

"I see this announcement as nothing more than what we in the military already knew. That being the end of the Battle Group rotations into the sandbox. The Battle Group only represents a portion of our comittment to Task Force Afghanistan (TFA) with the others large ones being the Opertional Mentoring and Liaison Team (OMLT) the Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team (KPRT) and the National Support Element (NSE). Unfortunately those in the general population and the media lack the basic understanding of a modern military and equate everything in TFA to the Battle Group and the end of its mission is seen as the end of Afghanistan as a whole. The MND made it clear that we would continue to have a mentoring and reconstruction role post 2011, which means that upwards of 2/3 of the CF elements would still be in theatre, and don't think that this means no more fighting and taking it to the enemy, the OMLT does the majority of the fighting these days as the mission has evolved. The goal has always been to hand over the responsibilities of the Battle Group as they currently exist to the Afghans (pet peeve of mine is seeing people refer to the people of Afghanistan as Afghanis, they are Afghans and their currency is the Afghani). I would suggest that everyone calm down and realise that this has been expected for a long time, and not to through away your vote in frustration based around the usual poor reporting of the msm."

A 1/3 reduction. Is that how Canadians are supposed to interprut this:

"I don't want to say we won't have a single troop there, because obviously, we would aid in some technical capacities. But, at that point, the mission as we've known it, we intend to end," Harper said, adding his party would propose to maintain "some presence" in the country after 2011, but with a focus mostly on reconstruction and development.

The CPC is throwing it off the table for the sake of winning the election. In my books, this will not do. We've gotta be open and honest about it; too much is at stake and too many have died to play politics on this one.

Actually Harper played this just right. There is no advantage in debating the Afghanistan mission during election 2008. Nothing is going to change before 2011 and in 2011 a decision will be made about our struggle in Afghanistan.

Has anybody considered the fact, that if Quebec were taken out of the polling equation, support for the mission would be significant.

there is not advantage of debating in 2008 because all is disadvantage and will be disadvantage for all of us

you only hold the horse you white Candaian Enlgish be the boss the rest is BS you know that

you never go to help Afgani or any Muslim there
look all of your judges in canada are most of them were so far BS complet say all order against Muslim " no cause of action" in civil court because they hate Muslim

so far waht do you expect poor Haper to ac fairly

support for mission of racist Irish Scotich German Catholic

if Paul you have any more authority you get Muslim balck French and others out

why do not you not get lost of this country we can breath peacfully

all war so far start from Englsih White to the world under all execuse if you big ass stop this war and hate world does not need any mission impossible to accomplish

you are so funny and blind and ignorant
the main problmes is conservaiteand republican who start all those war in past century and now need to get every body even french out

do you like any other race except yourself?
NAHHHHH nops

Actually new if we really wanted to kill Muslims we would leave Muslims to their own designs. After all Muslims are far more efficient at killing Muslims than we "white Canadian Enlgish" will ever be.

BTW didn't you hear mommy telling you to go to bed? Nighty night.

In Islam said Monafeq is worth than Kafer

moanfeq is used for group of peopl as you exactly describe if you like to both group kill each other you go to each and say the lie and come out and let these two hate each otehr and you get fish in muddy river that is culture of
English people my mother told me day one when I arrive in Canada because my mother when she was 15 was among so many English people she adviced me that becarefull about Enlgish people never trust them quickly because tehy are cut your
head by feather by talk nice by take your carpet pull under your feet to fell down

now when I saw in Canada I trust her advice that she really my mother know culture of Englsih
because all war you call it WAR in middle east is waht you made up tolet us kill each other

I remember how Americna sold weapn to both groups to let kill each otehr
as you also said do not talk about afganstan

as I live long among WHite English Candain i have no trust you go to Afganstan to help anybody

my mother always give me freedom for anything I like except being bad person and do anything god forbid us and she always tells me never listen to nobody except fear of god what you do not have one
I can not handle all racist and hate from you some times that is all, I come here to fix you and your culture some may back still some will go for sure to hell as god told those to bad people hell will wait for them this is only for believer not for ignoranc

good night

Armchair generals, like armchair detectives are a usually far distance from reality. Like my old uncle from Alberta used to say. It's time we got the f@#$ out of there!! In any event, it's the damned Liberals who got is than mess in first place.

On second thought, I think PM Stephen Harper is double tracking, as it puts other NATO partners on notice to step up to the plate and augur for more troops as many analysts have been calling for.

In short, a tactical u-turn for a greater strategic goal of getting more troops for ISAF, which down the road would be would be better for Canadian boots on the ground already.

Secondly, it shrewdly picks up a few moderate voters in Canada. Not a bad short term tactic.

Cheers

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht, Commander in Chief

Frankenstein Battalion
2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von Baden(Rheinisches) Nr.7(Saarbrucken)
Knecht Rupprecht Division
Hans Corps
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”

Hans: Harper choosing this time and place to make his statement is about the election ... nothing else. Quebec is strongly anti-war ... so he tied down the vote.

if you mean you went there for try how to hold the weapon and or how to tie your bootes and use area of desert or grass for army pratice for your coffee break to Canadina know what the army means is short term again that is I agree that is reason

if you try to say you try to stop the war or help the poor and rebuilt the afganista as we did not any sign I do not agree with

this is like you tell small child i am going to buy you ice cream and later by the money and you go and buy your self the platic gun and when you back say the ice cream store was closed I buy toy for you and small kid seat and cry ask for ice cream not the gun

those poor need money not the gun they already got it from Taleban

taht is trick Harper and other even Liberal was involve with it too I know

but for continue old trick is like let BUSH continue antoher 4 more year that is no way
Mr. Harper must change old way or may need to go fidn new job in political seat and let some one else to run the country seriously

Canda can help and use Afganstan in so many way but they hate them not like to do any work to help them just want their time talbe finsih and back home we finish 8 years but what job ? no answer they do not even know why wnet there by trick of USA adn tehy donot know why do not do good job and why not change the strategic plan to at least if they stock for other 4 years at least let use teh time in proper way

Harper's lost my vote. I'm with AtlanticJim. Canada deserves Dion. The Great White Waste of Time.

As I said in a previous post:

I agree with PMSH as well. Pull out in 2011, but with a "we'll be back" warning.

After ten years in Afghanistan, which was preceeded by about 8 years in the former Yugoslavia, the CF - for lack of a better term - is tired.

During any offensive operation, you use up men and materials, and a strategic 'pause' is necessary to reconstitute your forces.

I see withdrawl of combat troops in 2011 as the beginning of a reconstitution phase, where we can return home, repair and build up equipment, rather than buying anything in a hurry (remember the usefulness of the G-wagons?) But most important a long period to train and retrain the troops.

After a period of about 4-5 years to reconstitute our forces, the persons who had last been in Afghanistan as Privates would be going back as Master Corporals, leading their sections; the platoon commanders would be going back as Company Commanders, and so forth, all with better equipment that they are better prepared to use - rather than learning the hard way in battle.

So yeah, coming home - to rebuild - and then go back, if necessary, can be useful.

Let's just hope more of our NATO 'allies' step up to the plate to do some of the dirty work. After watching us from the sidelines, they know it can be done, they need the WILL! Let's hope they get it.

(New stuff)

Part of this reconsitution of forces would be to spend on things that we just haven't had enough disposable budget to use, since the financial cost of being there is so high.

We'll be able to get those subs of ours fixed and into the water sooner; more soveriegnty patrols in the north - and we can't be certain that there won't be a military threat there - Russia is just over the pole, and China needs resources. A study of China's history shows that if there was something they wanted or needed from a neighbour that they couldn't buy, they would take it.

What really needs to be done is an expansion of our Forces. Add at least one more Regular Force Brigade to respond to a domestic emergency. We need more than just Alert as a constantly occupied base in the north. Put some small bases like Alert at each end of the north-West Passage.

Before anyone says it, I know that the Libs and Dippers would be against additional spending and expansion of Forces, if it doesn't benefit whatever their meme-of-the-day is.

(Recently retired Major - 4 years infantry, 17 years logistics)

Sarge....with all due respect...dealt with you logistic types before.You think it is YOUR money you are spending to back our forces,not the taxpayers.Here's a hint for you.Stop spending your divisions money on trips and parties for you and your politicos at the end of the fiscal year just to protect your budget amount,and try sending it to where it is really needed,the troopies in the field.

"Today, we find much of western society almost unwilling to go to war at all. Massive casualties, on either side, are very much considered unacceptable. War-like activities are given creative new terms like “peace-making” and “police-action” to hide their true nature. This absolute aversion to warfare and even the suffering of one's enemies is certainly a novel and very modern concept. Hardly more than 60 years ago, our society was willing to rain down explosives, firebombs, and nuclear weapons on non-combatant enemies, killing hundreds of thousands. Today, the deaths of a handful of non-combatants in combat can inspire the citizenery to topple whole governments."

"While this enlightened, post-modern aversion to warfare may seem a noble and principled idea, it is unlikely to stand for long against the tide of modern day barbarians that have no such qualms."

Exterminat the Taliban.

You can NOT allow STONE AGE BARBARIANS get any degreee of legitimacy, in a world as complex as the one we find today.

Repeat: stone age ideals are OUT, period!!

98% of the Afghan population are Stone Age Barbarians. Even if we slaughtered them all, there would still be 1.3 billion low-intelligence, ultraviolent Islamosavages left to deal with in the world. The Islamic threat to Canada and the West is from the millions of death-cultists we have so foolishly allowed to immigrate to our societies, not from pathetic, Fourth World nations like Afghanistan.

Either we stop Muslim immigration altogether, or condemn future generations to dhimmi-status in a fully Islamified Western world. The Muslim population of the Greater Toronto Area is approaching 10% of the population and will not stop there. If we are serious about fighting the radical Islamist threat to Canada, then our troops should be redeployed from Kandahar to Scarborough, Rexdale, Brampton, etc. Don't laugh, because it will eventually come to that if we continue to import an estimated 200+ Muslims every single day.

the parliment of canada decide the withdrawl would be in 2011.

i missed the d. pay attention, stephen harper did not decide on his own to limit our action to 2011. it was agreed on by parliment

Justthinkin (but not too hard)

You’ve missed the point. Money saved while we’re not involved in combat ops after 2011 will be used to rebuild the parts of the Forces that have been neglected during our involvement there, and we should/would be well prepared to go back. While the US, the UK, Australia will do their part and more when needed, I haven’t much faith in many NATO countries to step up.

There is a new-old Cold War on the horizon, we must be prepared for it. And we may be facing more than one opponent in this Cold War. Russia is flexing its muscles again; China needs to expand its resource base; and of course there is the Caliphate. Did you miss the parts about raising a new Regular Force Brigade? Building new bases in strategic places? Getting stagnant equipment repaired? Capital purchases?

There will be no peace dividend. Don’t expect it.

As for your opinion about my branch, units I’ve worked with never had the money for ‘parties’ on the taxpayers hook. The closest thing to ‘parties’ was when a two week or longer field ex would end a couple days early. Luxury was access to a flushing toilet or a real shower while training, not a three day work week.

There might be a new cold war on the horizon, but we have a real war going on right now. Winning it should be the priority. This is no time for Canada to move to the sidelines.

what do you want to do You Canadain soldure who barly know how to handle the gun in your hand

we have so many conflict remain in Middle easat and ASIA that not job of Candain to get involved again USA tried to get advantage of Canadian that their dollar goes down

we have potentioanl 5 conflict still not solve in area that existing of Candain may enter them to more conflict and USA use this time conservative Canda to fight them not Americanby choose Demorcate witht his way USA come up an Canda ecomnoy will go down as these resule

1)
Do you know if Russia get motive with New Miss USA Palin to atttack more as their talk made them use Nato and Georgia
if Russi go to war

2)
if Isreal look for revenge of Iran to use nuclea weapn as key to bother Iranina ass for reveng of Iran like to kick ass of Sahinosim in Isreal who use race and national notrealy Jewish relgion to steal land in Isreal, still USA-Isreal-England vs. Iran-Palstin and Sauriah war is pontential never ended story exist

3)
if Pakstian and Indian nuclea and Hindo matter come up more between Muslim and Hindo
4)
if China and Budisom against West war come up

5)
threat of USA and Russia old war as reveng of each otehr

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/

this is headline of all topic about army in Afganstan and other today poltic debate in Canada

still so many questions not answer or not convincing answet to that becuase they do not know also poltician parties are more than
of fight French and English and Quebec and Ontario
should focus to main issue to talk I already mentioned in my other comments

Does Stephen Harper get all of his talking points from Barack Obama now?

I can't wait to hear what he has to say about "human rights" in Canada when he finally gets around to it.

From all that I've heard, Canadian soldiers are as courageous and as competent as any in the world and they've proven this in Afghanistan. I'm sorry for them that the best leader available is such a poor reflection of their courage and good character.

Exactly Mike.

With one quick statement, the sacrifices of the men and women of the Forces for the last 7 years and the sacrifices they will make over the next three years have just been completely negated.

Looks like the Taliban win on the weak kneed statement of a disgrace to this country.

Under the circumstances, I agree with the pullout.

There is no way of winning any war in Islamic countries without dealing with the ideology. Political, supremacist Islam must be separated from the state and schools in order to create real and lasting change, otherwise, unfortunately, any benefits will only be temporary.

Historically, this lesson was learned after WWII, in Japan, with regards to Shintoiism.

IMO, the best way to deal with Islam is to end Muslim immigration, containment (as was mentioned earlier), severe economic pressure, and the development of fuel sources not dependent on the M/E.

Otherwise, this will indeed be a never ending war of attrition, which, given Muslim birth rates, we may very well lose.

As horrible as it may sound, there is no sense in one of our soldiers dying, when, at the same time, another radical Muslim, or two, or three is born.

The ideology of Islam is not understood correctly and worse, being ignored and whitewashed by western governments, much to our detriment.

Attaturk's Turkey stands as proof, yet it still takes the military to enforce separation of ideology and state. And currently, the military is losing. Horrible Islamic motivated atrocities continue to plague the country.

All I know is if Dion was the only person vying for the leadership,I still wouldn't vote for the dweeb.He's the modern day Trudeau with his NEP policy.Seems that there are a few here who seem to forget the corrupt history of the Liberals,Sawinigate,adscam,HRC boondoggle,Alphonse Gagliano,Quebec's near successful referendum,Paul Martin's steamship lines,Liberal backed safe injection sites,failed multicultural policies,crime and the continuous revolving doors of our justice system,the Khadr family,the list goes on and on.So please keep things in perspective,reelecting the Liberals would be a disaster for Canada.

And that was just at the top of my head,anyone else care to chime in with what I've forgotten?OH yeah,speaking of our military,the sorry state of our military at the hands of the Liberals.

The promised scrapping of the GST by Chretien,the hits just keep coming.

When the sitting PM negates the dedication and sacrifices of the CF in one statement, I could not care less what the Liberals have done in the past or what they plan for the future.

Once again, Harper is a disgrace and this country deserves the moron Dion. Play his little political games with my life? %$&* him.

h.ryan: "So please keep things in perspective,reelecting the Liberals would be a disaster for Canada."

Exactly right! A large majority for the Conservatives should be a done deal. Yet, it's not. For those who insist on voting Liberal, despite the party's abysmal track record ... are you expecting a different result or are you just plain stupid?

AtlanticJim does this entire election centre on your priorities? Harper has a nation to run and as democratically elected leader he has many competing interests to keep in balance. I certainly don't agree with everything he does but I'm not about to withdraw my support because he doesn't bow down before me.

Parliament determined that Canada should end its Afghan mission in 2011. What kind of democracy would we have if everything parliament passes is ignored by the sitting prime minister? Does Robert Mugabe mean anything to you?

AtlanticJim...you in the military? If not,how's Harper playing games with your life,and how is it that Canada deserves Dion if it was Harper's mistake about the missions end date?And if you care so much about the CF then I would think you'd be dead set against the Liberals returning to power,seeing as what they did to the forces during the time they were at the helm.Let's not forget it was the Liberals who sent our ill equipped{remember the green uniforms}boys to that hole in the first place,and for all the wrong reasons I might add.Yes,I'll take the conservatives any day over the corrupt Liberals.

Seventeen years and counting h.ryan. At least when the Liberals were in power we KNEW they did not give a damn about us. Better that, than a govt that pretends to, but is shown to be no better after a penlight is shone on them.

Harper is a disgrace.

AtlanticJim....puhleeease,Mr. Harper has done more for the military during his short tenure than 13 years of Liberal leadership,I was a paratrooper for ten years while they were at the helm so I know directly what they did to us.During exercise we'd barter with the marines for effective rain gear,the list goes on and on so I won't even bother to get into it.What I have noticed is you seem to get a little unglued when talking about Mr.Harper,you from NFLD?If so,then that would explain everything,IE drinking Danny Williams Kool-aid,now there's a real disgrace!

No I am not lucky enough to be a Newfie. If you spent any time at ALL in the CF then you would not be so bloody stupid as to question the integrity of the people of the province that makes up a larger percentage of our forces than any other save Ontario. Newfies are the heart and soul of the CF, as anyone who has served for more than a week can tell you. That you would even THINK that about the Newfs in the CF tells me that your superiors were more than glad to see you pull the plug.

Last week the CPC had my vote sewn up. Then Harper turned into a Liberal and blew it. He showed his true colours, liberal red with a large yellow streak tossed in. For what? So he could get a few more votes? **** that disgrace to Canada.

You a left winger then?It would explain the name calling.I've met plenty of Newfs who think Danny Williams is their hero.What branch you in?Can't be the army cause real soldiers can't stand Liberals.

I also noticed you keep your yap shut on the latest thread about Danny boy,why don't you shoot your mouth off about Harper being a disgrace there,or you too much of a coward knowing you'll get your ass kicked,go run and hide newfie wannabe.

WOW!

Anger management problems much there Ryan?

As to my politics? None of your business, but if you spent any time around here you would know. As to my branch of service? That really does not matter does it? After all, I did not run off after just ten years. Signed my IPS a couple months back as a matter of fact.

And where would that be,on some gay pride parade float?

On a used car lot there side by side is a Lada and Mercedes. The two are the same price but there is a big sign on the Lada that says this car has never run and is deemed beyond repair. On the Mercedes is a sign that says this car broke down once but was easily repaired and is now good as new.

AtlanticJim walks onto the lot and buys the Lada because at least it is consistent.

"I'm not lucky enough to be a Newfie",little bit of an identity crisis it seems.

Turns out the media reports on this were BS, surprise, surprise. Apparently when in Quebec Harper only repeated that his government would honour the deal they made last spring, which called for the extension of the Afghan mission until 2011. This was the compromise reached with the Liberals in Parliament after the Manley report. A presence will remain after 2011, but not at the same level as present. My bad for believing media reports that this was a "change". I should have known better.