sda2.jpg

September 4, 2008

"Dear Mr. Carlin"

Jonathan Kay is embarrassed by an industry that probably doesn't deserve him;

A few weeks ago, I wrote a column arguing that readers will miss the mainstream media when we're gone. Oh sure, bloggers have a lot of spicy opinions. But when it comes to investigating important stories, they don't hold a candle to big, deep-pocketed, old-fashioned newspaper writers and broadcast media outlets.

Imagine my embarrassment, then, when it turned out this week that the flagship newscast on the biggest, deep-pocketedest, old-fashionedest Canadian media outlet of them all -- the taxpayer-funded CBC--got suckered into reporting a story that the blogosphere chewed up, debunked and spit out two days earlier.


Except that there's nothing remarkable about this. Debunking mainstream media agenda-driven "journalism" has the bread and butter of the political blogosphere for years. Newsbusters, Media Mythbusters, the thousands of eyes at LGF, the specialists at Icecap and Anthony Watts countering weather hysteria and junk science - open source critical analysis is out there for the taking, it's free, and yet the mainstream media continues to be deaf, dumb, and blind.

I've said it before - this isn't an extinction. It's suicide.

News consumers are no longer willing to be passive recipients of filtered, uninformed, agenda-driven journalism. They're not just showing the imposters up for what they are, they're responding - in subscription cancellations, channel changing, and plain old talk back;

Dear (name withheld):

I write to acknowledge receipt of your e-mail, which I have shared with Mark
Harrison, acting Executive Producer of The National, along with the request that
your concerns be addressed.

Yours truly,

Vince Carlin
CBC Ombudsman


We'll be following this one.

Posted by Kate at September 4, 2008 12:09 PM
Comments

watched a bit of CBCpravda last night and they kind of withdrew the bit that they had reported Palin was a member of the Alaska separatist party. but did note that her husband was.

Posted by: cal2 at September 4, 2008 12:14 PM

Cluesticks and LARTS all the way down...

CRUNCH (ow!), SLAM (ouch!), BASH (yikes!), KAPOW (holycrap!), BIFF (didn't see that coming!), BAM (uh-oh)...

Posted by: PiperPaul at September 4, 2008 12:19 PM

How does it feel to know our tax dollars support a news outlet that can't reach the debased ethical and factual standards of daily kos?

Posted by: wyatt salt at September 4, 2008 12:20 PM

The National Enquirer with ?

BTW who was the nerd on cbc last nite after the palin speech.

Posted by: bryanr at September 4, 2008 12:21 PM

Quel suprise! Just what do CBC reporters do with all their paid time anyway? And their staff of researchers for that matter.

Posted by: Texas Canuck at September 4, 2008 12:22 PM

Just don't hold your breath about results from CBC. Expect an absolute defense of whatever it was CBC did wrong, and several paragraphs of weaselwords rationalising their behaviour.

Posted by: grok at September 4, 2008 12:25 PM

Just to clarify: LART - Large Attitude Readjustment Tool.

Posted by: PiperPaul at September 4, 2008 12:26 PM

The Canadian Broadcorping Castration.

Still stuck on Stupid.


Beyond help, past hope, waiting for the rot to get worse.

Posted by: Fred at September 4, 2008 12:27 PM

John Cruickshank, head of news, should be wearing this.

CBC had to correct their previous smear last night on the National. They reported that she was an Alaska Independent Party member.

Neil MacDonald needs to go and not just be relocated to Toronto.

Scroll down. There is a good comment about how CBC smears, smears again, allows the smears to set in, and then quietly 'correct' the misinformation only after being pressured days or weeks later.

Al Jazeera is already making a cozy place for Neil as you blog, Kate.

Posted by: bob at September 4, 2008 12:28 PM

I have a friend who canceled cable connection long time ago in order to to have more time for family interaction. I had always wonder how they can live without tv , before I tried myself. It has been a year only with Internet ,books, radio and rented movies . Amazing how much you can do and how much you can read. For the younger generation : "it's just stupid to organize your day around tv program and plan to sit passively in a chair at the specific time". If you'll try, you won't loose anything.

Posted by: xiat at September 4, 2008 12:33 PM

The Torch said it best:

http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/

"Journalistic objectivity is a fairy tale told to children and developmentally challenged adults."

the Torch 19/Aug/2008

Posted by: Glrn at September 4, 2008 12:34 PM

By pure chance I happened to see the CBC piece that Kay reported on - was bored, flipping channels.

I'm used to seeing CBC lie to push their agenda, but I must admit I was shocked to see just how far they went in that piece.

They really are pond scum.

And on top of the shock I did laugh to think that the story they were reporting had already been well and truly debunked.

With CBC now tossing out its classical music - and having already tossed out their excellent late night jazz show - there is really no reason for them to exist any more.

May the CBC and the rest of the MSM die sooner than later at this point. I loath them all.

Posted by: TJ at September 4, 2008 12:35 PM


sorry put this in the wrong place.

CBCpravda must be going catatonic on this one.

lets see - she's a Republican, we dont like.
- she's a woman, okay we like
- she's prolife , nope, not cbc policy
- she can draw a crowd like hussien -
okay we like
- she has more than 2.1 children-hate
- supports a canadian pipeline -like
- killsfurry things with scary gun- no
- married to native -like
- cuts back government spending - nope
- will kick drunken joe bidens butt.


I thought Keith Boag was going to lose is lunch the other day when borat dion came out with his nuts dragged thru his nose after meeting with harper. an election , when we are down? cant be?

Posted by: cal2 at September 4, 2008 12:36 PM

I'm surprised Kay took this long to realize the CBC is incompetent. Sure, it's bias is irritating but the real reason I click right by is that it is simply moronic drivel. All the clever and insightful information is online.

Posted by: chip at September 4, 2008 12:39 PM

Seems to me Neil Macdonald has been relocated more than once. It's a typical tactic used when complaints get overwhelming for management at CBC.

Macdonald has been in Washington and squarely in the Democrat camp. He, like the likes of Wolf Blitzer on CNN, met someone who knocked their socks off. They have nothing left to say beyond tabloid gossip type reporting.

Governor Sarah Palin, a plain talking, common sense woman of many accomplishments is the biggest threat to Obama and company yet. The reaction of the Left tells it all.

Her speech last night rendered the likes of Wolf Blitzer and cohorts speechless, he had no where to go, he looked stunned.

Go governor Palin, you have the goods!

Posted by: Liz J at September 4, 2008 12:49 PM

CTV did the same thing. LLLLLLoyd spewed it out the other night. Don't these guys have the internet? or are they still pulling stories off the teleprinter? What's worse, they spread this crap down through their affiliates, which, btw, the local Association Posts, is getting awfully tired of the comparison as being dumber than.

Mind you, its no different with the leftrolls who show up here. Ya'd think that if they had sufficient computer skills to find SDA, they could use google, at least.

Note to leftrolls - you're not helping your cause when you use CBC, CTV, WaPo and a bunch of others to base your drivebys on here. It just makes you look dumber then they are, and trust us, that's not a good thing.

Posted by: Skip at September 4, 2008 12:54 PM

Now now, let's not be too rough on the CBC.
All you have to do is read the viewer/listener/reader comments on any given story to realize that they are just desperately trying to hold on to the only audience they have.

Even small "l" liberals have given up on the CBC.

Posted by: Largs at September 4, 2008 12:54 PM

Given Jonathan Kay's past views this column seems to complete his apostasy. I also love how he says "Left-wing bias from the CBC-- that we expect. But rank amateurism is unforgivable."

I got a good belly laugh there.

Posted by: Voidraithe at September 4, 2008 12:55 PM

this description from Huckabee's speech last night works just as well on the CBC.

“I’d like to thank the elite media for something quite frankly I didn’t believe could be done — that is unifying the Republican Party and all of America” behind McCain’s pick of Palin.

“The reporting of the past few days has proven tackier than a costume change at a Madonna concert.”

Posted by: Fred at September 4, 2008 12:57 PM

So sad that so many glazed-eyed Canadians take whatever filth CBC and CTV spew out as gospel.

What is it with leftoids and conspiracy theories? They're always the first to jump on ridiculous bandwagons?? Shame on the CBC.

Posted by: Soccermom at September 4, 2008 1:03 PM

Sell the CBC. I don't want $1 of my tax dollars going to it. Enough is enough.

Posted by: Sounder at September 4, 2008 1:05 PM

It is fun today to watch the elite media, and the most trusted team blah, try to defend themselves after the bashing they got last night. One this is started it will be difficult for it to stop.
Considering they are re-playing her comments over and over, as they try to get someone to say, she was wrong.

Posted by: MaryT at September 4, 2008 1:12 PM

Audit the CBC now!

Send in the Auditor General and cut their funding.

The CBC is a miasma of decrepitude and a bastion of anarchy.

Phone the Minister of Heritage and demand accountability.

Posted by: Brad at September 4, 2008 1:23 PM

even when the PM calls an election CBCpravda turns it into a lieberal story.


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/09/04/harper-election.html

Posted by: cal2 at September 4, 2008 1:28 PM

New job openings for former CBC employees are here

Posted by: xiat at September 4, 2008 1:52 PM

It isn't incompetence in this case. The CBC put just enough little 'outs' in the newscast so they could claim to being fair.
It was a calculated smear.
Niel MacDonald has a long history of bias and having to be apologized for.
Why are my tax dollars paying for biased news and lame sitcoms?
When did that become one of the core functions of government?

Posted by: Stan at September 4, 2008 1:58 PM

Henry Champ's article "Paying a high price for Palin" is about as clueless as it gets.

From the cbc's Washington File:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/reportsfromabroad/champblog/2008/09/paying_a_high_price_for_palin.html

"Publicly, the choice of the ultra-conservative Alaskan continues to get Republican delegate support; privately there is growing concern and some anger that McCain's impetuousness has hurt the ticket."

Has the cbc EVER refered to Obama as "Ultra Liberal"? Theres no such thing truely.
Impetuousness?

"By most accounts John McCain has muffed this one."

"Monday's revelation of the governor's daughter Bristol and her pregnancy has highlighted the messiness of the governor's selection."

"It now appears that the team of lawyers and operatives conducting the selection vetting arrived in Alaska only the day before McCain announced his selection."

"The biggest problem, however, is Trooper-gate.
McCain's people say they are not troubled by the allegations of her abuse of power."

Good gawd, cut funding now.

Posted by: lilli marlene at September 4, 2008 2:01 PM

Sounds exactly like old Kneel's take.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1843.htm.

Posted by: richfisher at September 4, 2008 2:10 PM

The CBC is even worse than CNN,and that takes some doing.After they were caught off guard yesterday,having to admit that Palin gave a great speech,they have regrouped and are back on track today.Special needs children funding slashed by a whopping 62%,the christian right,Republicans belittling Obama,blah blah blah.The new rallying cry for the MSM,can we sink even lower with our sneers,smears,and lies? Yes we can.

Posted by: h.ryan at September 4, 2008 2:10 PM

Here's a good example:

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=dc0b4b92-3515-4a7a-bccd-de94fc9cd4ec

Conservatives open vault with billions in new spending

Ford gets loan. 'Money not being thrown around:' PM
DAVID AKIN, Canwest News Service
Published: 11 hours ago

The federal Conservatives rushed out billions of dollars in new spending announcements yesterday while the Liberals made their own billion-dollar announcement, a sign that an election campaign is underway in all but name.

In Windsor, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Ottawa would send Ford Motor Co. an $80-million cheque as a repayable loan to help the Detroit-based company reopen a mothballed engine plant here.

New spending? Uh... that money is part of the innovation fund announced during the budget, how is that new spending? And since when are loans spending?

Sheesh...

Posted by: allan at September 4, 2008 2:16 PM

And that, my friends, is why I stopped watching The National over five years ago.

Posted by: mark peters at September 4, 2008 2:21 PM

You mean Neil MacDonald showed some sort of left wing bias in his reporting? Unbelievable! He has such a history of journalistic fairness and integrity. And I find it hard to imagine the CBC would allow such a smear to be aired on The National which is normally a well-spring of solid fact finding devoid of any subjective commentary from its correspondents. At least they balance things off with Heather Mallick's tax-payer funded blog of random thoughts on on the Mother Corp's main news site.

Posted by: swatter at September 4, 2008 2:45 PM

It continues this morning as Joel at PTBC reports. CBC this morning interviews a left wing radio host about Sarah and all her failings. Google Shannyn Moore and read some of her thoughts. I think CBC has found themselves a star and I'm willing to bet they're about to make her a regular "expert".

Posted by: Boots at September 4, 2008 2:53 PM

swatter:

Oh, dear.

You're just as sarcastic as the thin-skinned lefties claim Sarah Palin's sensational speech had.

Posted by: set you free at September 4, 2008 2:57 PM

mark peters:

Only five years?  I stopped watching "The National" in the early 1990s.  And with the incredible dumbing-down of CBC Radio Two that started on Sept. 2, my last link to "Canada's National Broadcaster" is well and truly severed.

It's Shoutcast for me from now on (well, that and possibly satellite radio...).  Can I get my tax money back now, please?


Garth

Posted by: Garth Wood at September 4, 2008 2:59 PM

Its like watching the Pandas slowly die out from lack of vigor to mate any more. Even Panda porn can't get them serviceable. Alas our media has become as dysfunctional. All Hail the Obama "personality cult". 2008 was the Death of the old Media as it was sucked into the Uber messiahs machine. The turning of truth for personal bias did em in. They have become eunuchs of the lefts political Masters. The keystone cops of Journalism.

Posted by: Revnant Dream at September 4, 2008 3:07 PM

"Journalistic objectivity is a fairy tale told to children and developmentally challenged adults."

the Torch 19/Aug/2008

Posted by: Glen at September 4, 2008 3:24 PM

Some basic math and biology training might be needed for the CBC, because as you know, they didn't do so well in school, all those drama classes cut into those boring old science and math classes.
A woman who gave birth four and a half months ago is unlikely to be five months pregnant. No, really. It's probably a bit of a relevation, but I'm sure they can scrounge up an expert to confirm it.
Now my training as a investigative reporter is pretty much limited to having read the Encyclopedia Brown mysteries and watched the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew on TV, but it seems to me that if you do the math, a small problem pops up.
It might be a good time for our future crop of Governor Generals at the Corrupt Broadcasting Corporation to take a bit of time off from their busy schedules of smearing all things conservative to maybe take a GED course.
Or at least try to get their grade 8 math and biology up to par.
Hey, maybe they can spend a few million of our tax dollars and have a new game show.
They could call it 'Why Is your Fifth Grader So Much Smarter Than A CBC Reporter'?

Posted by: Stan at September 4, 2008 3:25 PM

CTV is in the game as well. They interviewed Quinn from WaPo, and some leftogynist fem from Planned Parenthood.
Why didn't they interview some of the Alaskan beaurocracy that Sarah cleaned out of office(Republicans too)? Guess they didn't clue in to the fact that Sarah Palin's message is not about birth control, and sex ed, it's about representing her electorate, reducing taxes and waste, and standing up for America.

Posted by: bluetech at September 4, 2008 3:40 PM

The left, here and in US, went after an unknown Alaskan governor and turned her into a national celebrity.

Good job. As for the idiot comment about "cannon fodder," well, keep up the good work.

Posted by: Shamrock at September 4, 2008 3:48 PM

"Why didn't they interview some of the Alaskan beaurocracy"

They did - they interviewed Lyda Green, an avowed old republican enemy of Palin's back in Ak. Green had the smarts to recognize that her career wouldn't benefit from a full blown assault, but she was able to squeek out that "Palin wasn't ready to be VP". CTV did nothing to establish who she was, other than to imply that she was a "colleague" of Palin's and "knew her well". Their mutual animosity is apparently legendary there.

Posted by: Skip at September 4, 2008 4:26 PM

I'm just watching don Newman on the Broaaaaaaaaaadcaaaaaaaaaaaast. They are doing the spiel on the new poll that shows the CPC up by 10 points.
The CBC will be trying to spin these polls to get Canadians thinking that they should vote liberal to keep the CPC from getting a majority.
On one hand they keep telling us how surprising this is and in the next breath they tell us this is a trend that has been going on for a long time.
Spin spin spin spin and more spin.

Posted by: Stan at September 4, 2008 5:07 PM

I gave up the CBC for Lent about 20 years ago, and it's the best thing I ever did. 'Helped my blood pressure, too. I watch them only to see what they're up to.

I DID listen to Radio 2 in the morning, Music and Company with Tom Allen and for that reason alone, figured CBC radio was OK.

Now they've got a new lineup called NEW 2 and it's crap, total crap. I feel sorry for Tom Allen. It must be driving him nuts. It drove me nuts for five minutes and I yelled at my computer "THAT'S THAT! I'M OUTTA HERE."

No more CBC, EVER. So, please Stephen Harper, when you win the next election GET. RID. OF. THE. CBC. Like other commenters, I don't want one more red cent of my tax dollars going to this entitled, out-of-touch, lying, conniving, media abomination of an outlet. ;-)

Posted by: batb at September 4, 2008 5:16 PM

So I guess things were pretty much As Usual while I was gone.... !!
Heh?

Posted by: OMMAG at September 4, 2008 5:27 PM

Jonathan Kay: Let the CBC know how you feel about Neil McDonald's appalling smear on Sarah Palin
Posted: September 04, 2008, 2:26 PM by Jonathan Kay
Jonathan Kay
Following on today's column about Neil McDonald's appalling CBC report on Tuesday night's installment of The National, I've been cc-d on a lot of angry emails to CBC Ombudsman Vince Carlin (Ombudsman@CBC.CA). What follows is a good example of the genre …



To:
Vince Carlin
CBC Ombudsman

Thursday, September 4, 2008 (6:00am EDT)

Dear Mr. Carlin:

This letter is a complaint against Neil McDonald's Tuesday September 2 report concerning
VP nominee Sarah Palin. I make three specific complaints:

1. Neil MacDonald suggested that Sarah Palin might be the true mother of a child that in fact was borne by Palin's 17-year-old daughter. McDonald relied on debunked internet rumours for his false reporting. See the essay by Jonathan Kay in today's National Post:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/09/03/jonathan-kay-the-cbc-s-appalling-smear-on-sarah-palin.aspx

2. In McDonald's same report, he also repeats the completely false story that Sarah Palin used to be a member of the Alaska Independence Party (AIP).

3. On the Wednesday September 3 CBC National, Peter Mansbridge attempts to correct this second of McDonald's fabrications, stating that "there have been news reports claiming that Sarah Palin used to be a member of the Alaska Independence Party...". Mansbridge
then goes on to correct McDonald's false report with factual information. My complaint is that Peter Mansbridge was not forthcoming in stating that (a) it was Neil McDonald who made the latter false statement, and that (b) Mansbridge was correcting a false CBC report. Mansbridge leaves the false impression that he is correcting the reporting of other news media, and not the CBC National.

The three above complaints suggest that the CBC National is not only seriously biased, but that it is actually deliberately misleading its viewers in its crusade opposing the Republican Party in the U.S. election campaign.

On a positive note, I notice that the Wednesday CBC Morning news show did not re-telecast Neil McDonald's shameful news reporting. I appreciate the good professional judgement of the news editor at CBC Morning to realise that McDonald's Tuesday reporting was false.

I demand that the CBC suspend Neil McDonald for deceptive and false news reporting.

I would like you to convey my compalints to Neil McDonald, Peter Mansbridge of the CBC National, senior personel at CBC News, and John Cruikshank, publisher of CBC News.

Sincerely,
David Murrell (PhD)
Department of Economics,
University of New Brunswick

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/09/04/jonathan-kay-let-the-cbc-know-how-you-feel-about-neil-mcdonald-s-appalling-smear-on-sarah-palin.aspx

Posted by: Orville at September 4, 2008 5:56 PM

it must have pained CBCpravda to type this one.


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/09/04/poll-results.html


kneel macdonald , the antiamerican toady will have a job in a couple of days at Al Jazeera. there are CBCpravda employees already over there keeping his seat warm.

I predict CBC will essentially ignore the Canadian election . maybe one short story a day per party, lieberals(never grits), greens, dippers and in small print "Tories"


Harper , you magnificent bastard!!!


Posted by: cal2 at September 4, 2008 6:37 PM

Orville: What nonsense is this? "Neil MacDonald suggested that Sarah Palin might be the true mother of a child that in fact was borne by Palin's 17-year-old daughter. McDonald relied on debunked internet rumours for his false reporting."

Sarah Palin IS the true mother of little Trig; Bristol is pregnant, but has never yet given birth. This David Murrell you quote must be one idiotic professor, or else he's been spending so much time on econometrics, he's forgotten how to communicate in English.

Posted by: KevinB at September 4, 2008 7:08 PM

kevinb...calm down...looks like typo to me.Reading the whole letter, obviously it should have read:

"...suggested that Palin might NOT be the true mother..."

The remainder of his lettter dissed Macdonald appropriately.

Orville...Can you clarify?

Posted by: bluetech at September 4, 2008 7:20 PM

I noticed the CBC trumpeted "The National" as the #1 newscast in the country for the middle weeks of August. No mention, of course, that during that period, "The National" was a sliver of baloney in an Olympic sandwich.

Just for laughs, I clicked on the "Toronto" link in the same Nielsen story. For the week of August 3-10, CBLT had three shows in the Top Ten- the Olympic opening ceremonies, a truncated 10-minute version of the National on Friday night which occurred in the middle of the Opening Ceremony broadcast (and for which ratings from the O.C. dropped by 20%, suggesting a lot of people were doing something more productive, like going to the bathroom), and Olympic coverage on Saturday.

After that? They had number 19 with "Coronation Street" and number 23 with "Fashion File". Both CTV and Global newscasts ranked higher. CBLT's local newscast didn't make the Top 30.

So actually, I'm indebted to Mr. Kay for pointing out this latest piece of CBC stupidity. No one else is watching to see it.

Posted by: KevinB at September 4, 2008 7:23 PM

Well, well, well... and the Left thinks that the mainstream media is trustworthy. Of course they do, because the MSM, certainly obviously the CBC, is on their side!

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at September 4, 2008 7:50 PM

Canadian Sentinel: "Well, well, well... and the Left thinks that the mainstream media is trustworthy. Of course they do, because the MSM..."

please allow me to finish your sentence...

IS THEM!!

Posted by: batb at September 4, 2008 8:03 PM

CBC CHRC

FIRE.THEM.ALL.

Posted by: cal2 at September 4, 2008 8:19 PM

GRITS GRITS !!!
the CTV(TASS) has turned on the GRITS.


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080904/greenshift_suit_080904/20080904?hub=TopStories

Posted by: cal2 at September 4, 2008 8:52 PM

I've just seen the Globe and Mail's Margaret Wente, for whom I have a great deal of respect, on TVO.

She actually said that no one had heard of Sarah Palin before last Friday. Interesting . . . I heard of her quite a long time ago--on the internet.

MSM: Mortally Stymied and Myopic.

Good Lord, deliver us.

Posted by: Concerned Canadian at September 4, 2008 9:06 PM

"She actually said that no one had heard of Sarah Palin before last Friday. Interesting . . . I heard of her quite a long time ago--on the internet."

It's likely few people had heard of her, like me for instance.

Now, thanks to the dem smear campaign, everybody has. Good job of supplying the means for your own defeat.

The post Clinton dems must be the stupidest political party out there, constantly exhibiting horrible judgment and nominating facade candidates.

Now they lose, again.

Posted by: Shamrock at September 4, 2008 9:14 PM

Interestingly, I just saw a National Critical Issues Survey from the Conservatives.

One of the questions is "The CBC costs taxpayers over $1.1 billion per year. Do you think this is:
a. a good use of taxpayer dollars b. a bad use of taxpayer dollars.

Glad they're at least asking.

PS. Also a question about the HRCs

Posted by: Valencia at September 4, 2008 9:37 PM

All these wonderful comments and I have nothing to contribute because I won't watch and you can't make me watch CBC or CTV.

Posted by: Joe at September 5, 2008 12:32 AM

'Why Is your Fifth Grader So Much Smarter Than A CBC Reporter'?

Posted by: Stan at September 4, 2008 3:25 PM
I weep with envy at that line. I am still chocking from coffee going down the wrong pipe. (O:}

Posted by: Revnant Dream at September 5, 2008 2:21 AM

Hey, for those who just love to watch their tax dollars at work, check out today's Post, where the CBC gives a big sneering finger to Jonathan Kay on the letters page.

Posted by: ebt at September 5, 2008 4:33 PM
Site
Meter