What's more, the fools are creating an atmosphere of nastiness that could blow it for their candidate.

At some point, Senator Obama is going to have to tell 'em, "Shut up already, I don't need this. The target is McCain, dammit."

Just watched an interview with james carville on CNN. He's sitting in the path of hurricane gustav, but still took the time to hold up pictures of the town hall where Ms Palin served as mayor. He described it as looking like a bakeshop. No mention of her being governor.

Time to get down and dirty. Bring on the swiftboat guys. There isn't a black family in America that doesn't have someone serving time in prison somewhere. All they have to do is dig.

Predictable...especially by the KosKids.

Kate...sorry for the following OT, but did you read/see this?...(from the following story)

http://www.style.com/vogue/feature/090108VFEA/

'Curious about what kind of a background could produce someone like Palin, I called up her parents, who live 40 miles from Anchorage in the small town where Palin was mayor. "Come on over," her father, Chuck Heath, said on the phone, "unless you have a problem with small dead animals."

The last quote from Mr. Heath? ;) Coincidence?...I think not!

It's OK.
The Libcoms are reacting just as expected. Don't fight it. Embrace it, and use it as the tool against them that it is.
It may just be me, but it seems that the tide is turning and the morons are being recogonized by the regular public for what they really are.
I'm thrilled. A Republican in office, and Harper with a majority. Now on to the civil service and the CBC.

I head Diane Francis loves her... not!

Apparently even the Canadian fiscal quasi-feminist conservative set is in full on attack mode.

Diane Francis has drunk the Obama Kool-Aid.

On a theoretical level I find this fascinating because we are witnessing in front of our eyes what happens continually with discursive categories of identities (like gender, race, class, ethnicity...). One's sex as male or female is quite fixed and easily determined. One's gender, as a man, woman, trans, is a much more variegated and shifting reality that is discursively constructed across time and space. I think what we're seeing is that progressives indeed are for "women" which they posit as a certain way of being. Likewise, conservatives are in favour of "women", which they too posit as a certain way of being. Point is, the stakes are quite high, for the fight continually is over the very definitions of womanhood, if there is such a thing, and which versions become predominant.

Politically, Republican supporters whining over scurrilous and personal attacks is just a tad ridiculous. The Republicans elevated smear and negative tactics to the level of a given in contemporary politics. They also proved that going negative is highly successful. Harper learned this well (from day one he has attacked Dion's "manhood") and has been very effective at portraying Dion as a spineless, wimpy, leader.

There seem to be two options. Reintroduce integrity in politics, reinvigorate an electorate that is turning out in record low numbers, and don't reward these bums by voting for them. Or, accept this mudsling as the new bottom in politics and turn politics into a Teflon contest. The latter, sadly, seems much more likely. But don't cry foul when politicians are attacked. Rather thank Cheney, Rove and the neocons for taking nastiness and win at all costs to the next level.

btw I don't need, as I have in the past re: my discussion on "culture", to be lectured by pimply faced know it all MA's. If you disagree with the idea that identity is discursively constructed, fine. I get that people also have essentialist notions of identity. That's fine too. In that case, we'll just agree to disagree.

I think your ideas about identity are interesting and I won't argue with you about them. However, what ever gave you the idea that Dion is not a "spineless, wimpey, leader".

Billygoat said: "..."unless you have a problem with small dead animals." [quoting from Palin's dad]

Not SDA, but a kindred spirit of sorts - if you catch the picture of mom and dad sitting in their Alaska living room, you'll get it right off. This is bush country - they're hunters, the evidence is on the wall - everywhere. The tree huggers are going absolutely apoplectic all over the internet about this. What a novel concept: hunter-gathering to survive - who'd thought of that?

ROTFLMAO!

Bill, I find your ideas interesting and would like to subscribe to your newsletter...

OMG.

The moonbats are turning themselves into pretzels dealing with Sarah Palin. Everything they believe about women--their equality, their abilities to do anything a man can do, their right to reproductive freedom, their breaking through the glass ceiling--is being challenged by Palin.

And they can't handle it. Everything that's fine for a lib-left feminist--in fact, everything they EXPECT of a left-lib feminist--doesn't compute when all of their litmus-test expectations show up in a family-loving, pro-life (Palin CHOSE her reproductive freedoms by having five children), gun-toting, Republican politician.

Of course, I guess being able to handle a gun, going to a Christian church, and choosing a large-ish family, with the newest member having Down's syndrome, doesn't permit Mrs. Palin membership in the feminist moonbats' "august," "enlightened," "tolerant," "open," and "diverse" club. There's only so much tolerance, openness, and diversity one can permit, after all.

Boy, are these lefties getting bent out of shape. As Revnant Dream puts it, they're having a massive and very public nervous breakdown.

Looks good on them. Real life really challenges these shysters.

DailyKos has finally seen the error of there ways, sort of:

"Flogging this rumor in light of what seems to be pretty solid counter-evidence is just squandering whatever credibility we have. In the words of Janor Hypercleats, "They's laughin' at you, boy." There is so much more that we could be highlighting regarding Palin; we don't want that to be tarred with "from the same people who smeared Palin's teenage daughter..."

"The Republicans elevated smear and negative tactics to the level of a given in contemporary politics."

Examples please. Was it pointing out that Kerry was never in Cambodia on Christmas morning, 1968, as he claimed was "seared, seared!" into his memory? That is the usual example.

What is the Republican version of Farenheit 911? Or is that stuff all true? What was the Republican version of claiming that secret operatives blew up the World Trade Center? Or is that true?

What are these smears? Really. Obama attended Islamic schools in Indonesia? I don't know, but I think the evidence points to that he did.

Was it the whole Reverend Wright thing? Let's see, the autobiography which he wrote in hist thirties after accomplishing exactly nothing was named "The Audacity of Hope" a phrase from crazy Reverend Wright, to whom Obama never listened? Is that the smear?

Really. But, in case you are as stupid as you seem, we are not "whining" about the "nuts and sluts" attack on Palin, we are celebrating it, shouting it from the rooftops! Exactly the opposite of Kerry's approach to the swift boats, which was to try to prevent people from hearing the actual facts of the "smear", but to dutifully plug their ears if it ever comes up.

I am 100% confident that you will not reply to my declaration that Kerry lied about being in Cambodia on Christmas 1968, because to admit that the Swift Boaters hurt Kerry because "the truth hurts" would be beyond your level of self awareness.

"There isn't a black family in America that doesn't have someone serving time in prison somewhere. All they have to do is dig."

I love conservatives. "What? We've been one-upped in the slime department? Well, let's get ON it, people!"

Posted by "The Red Pen" at Daily Kos, August 31, 2008 @ 8:50 p.m., accompanied by a photo of an obviously pregnant Sarah Palin five days before Trig Palin's birth:

[begin quote]

OK, there is a visibly-pregnant Sarah Palin talking with a CBS 11 (Dallas [crossed out]) (Juneau) reporter at the Governor's meeting (in Texas [crossed out]) end of the Alaska legislative session. She clearly appears to be pregnant.

Unless someone has counter evidence, we can drop this crap now. Yes, there are still some interesting questions, such as why she flew to Dallas and back when she was this pregnant, and why the Alaska Airlines crewmembers insisted that she was not visibly pregnant on the flight. Nevertheless, until this photo is debunked, we look stupid pushing this rumor.

That is all.

[end quote]

Yeah, that's all, and the Kos Kids look more than stupid. They've shown what douche bags they are and that they live in a scuzzy alternate universe most of us don't ever want to visit.

I'm off to have a shower.

bill stewart - you sound like you've taken too many introductory courses in women's studies and postmodernist 'cultural studies'. You've got the jargon (sex vs gender; discursive identities etc).

However, -has it ever occurred to you that this jargon is, itself, a discourse and therefore, an abstract creation of the mind? And far, far removed from reality?

No, the world doesn't operate within a binary frame of Either Physical Essentialism OR Discursive Conceptualism. The world is a bit more complex than such undergrad binarisms.

The world is real, which makes it complex rather than simple. And both essentialist and discursive identities are simple constructs: physical vs mental. The world operates within BOTH 'realities': the factual and the fictional. The two realities, the physical and the conceptual, interact.

What you are describing are only the cultural constructs of identity - what is the normative ROLE of a man or woman in a particular society. However, normative roles are only the average, and are dependent upon the ECONOMIC identity of the society.

A dynamic society enables and permits a wide statistical variation. A no-change no-growth society doesn't enable much deviation from this norm of 'proper behaviour'.

So, our modern industrial nations must enable a wide variation of normative behaviour of both genders. Again, this normative behaviour is always restrained by physical reality; it must be; we cannot live in a purely fictional world, despite what the postmodernists wish.

As for your comments about Republicans 'whining' about scurrilous attacks - I disagree. You are, of course, setting the stage for your readers by your own biased words (whining etc). To attack someone, ad hominem, is always reprehensible. Your obvious leftist bias (and that includes your focus on discursive identities) means that you ignore the Democrat and Liberal smear campaigns.

Speaking of discursive creations, Kerry's self written version of himself as a Vietnam hero was put down by the Swift Boat truths, and Obama is nothing but a discursive creation; there's nothing there other than words.

No, Harper has never moved into personal ad hominem. Could you provide a specific example of his attacking Dion's 'manhood'? He certainly has said that Dion isn't a leader. So? Does that have any truth in it? Meanwhile, from day one, Dion has attacked Harper as a 'control freak'.

And finally, Bill Stewart, it is an invalid argumentative strategy to try to defect an opponent's argument by ad hominem descriptions of any who disagree with that argument as 'pimply faced MA's. Let's focus on your argument instead. It's invalid.

As I said, your simplistic reduction of reality to the binarism of physical Essentialism vs mental discursiveness - is invalid. Reality is more complex. Try reading Aristotle's Metaphysics rather than Derrida and the rest of that gang.

The heart of the feminist is not about what a woman can accomplish, or about opportunity. It is a disdain for the Judeo-Christian family model.

Linking To D.U.!!?? EWWWWWWWWW!!@!!!

minuteman, hope I didn't give the impression that I wished to defend Dion. There are many substantive reasons over which to disagree with Dion. My point was that, from day one, the conservatives, clearly influenced by the success of the neocons south of the border, have done little else than ad hominem attacks on Dion's character (not that the fear mongering perpetrated by the Liberals was any better). And it's largely been successful, since the one thing people seem to know about Dion, despite not knowing anything else, is that he's a weak leader, a view which interestingly hinges on accepting a certain view of masculinity. Unfortunately we are increasingly becoming polarized around these issues and partly because so much is at stake. I think people that define our differences as purely regional, or as a rural/ urban split miss the point that at issue are more profound discourses. Discourses that define what it means to be a man, woman, trans, that define what security and freedom mean, what leadership means, what community means etc. And neither side wants to see the other side become hegemonic.

sheesh, bill stewart - can you move out of the undergrad jargon?! You are trapped in it. There's reality outside the classroom, you know.

No, your attempt to justify your original statement that Harper attacks Dion's 'manhood' by now linking that to the claims that Dion is not a leader ..are invalid. Leadership and 'manhood' are not synonyms. Tell that to Margaret Thatcher. Or Sarah Palin. Furthermore, coming to a conclusion that Dion is not a leader is, well, it's valid. Are you actually suggesting that to say such a thing is unacceptable?

Could you provide some evidence for yet another conclusion of yours - that the Conservatives are 'influenced by the neocons south of the border'. Since the term 'neocon' is in common jargon an insult, you seem to be suggesting that concluding that Dion is not a leader is a result only of the American-influenced politics of the Conservatives. (Is it Bush's fault?)..and has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Dion's own behaviour.

So - Dion IS a leader according to you?! How has he shown these attributes? After all, according to you, the view that we have of Dion as not a leader is created by the neo-con Conservatives and is purely a discursive image. Not real. Heh.

My, my, so according to you, our political identity, which is splintered into various identity-blocs (regions, rural/urban) can be even more splintered into 'what it means to be a man, a woman, what leadership means, what community means and so on. These are debates that are philosophical, that actually transcend the lower realm of politics and can't be legislated within any House of Commons.

As for 'neither side wishing the other to be hegemonic' - again, you are slipping into simplistic binarism. As well as cultural jargon which has zilch to do with politics. After all, each side wants to win. That's what the political system is based on; one party gets to form the govt.

Hey Mr. B. Stewart. You might want to check out Democratic and Leftwing attacks on Reagan, long before any neocons "started" anything against Clinton or Kerry. You also might want to check out Michelle Malkin's links to the acts of unhinged leftists in 2004. The physical and verbal attacks on Republicans and the sheer hatred directed at W. Bush have been beyond anything we've ever seen in politics yet. I mean, movies about SHOOTING him that win awards? And what about the ads against Harper with the gun pointing at the TV viewer, his so-called "secret agenda" and the scary fascist Canadian soldiers in Canadian streets? And now the feminists of the left and the oh-so-sensitive-and-progressive males of the left attack a vice-presidential pick because she's a woman, a mother with a career (just not one they like, as it involves oil and politics), and made a choice to have a disabled fifth child.

Libs label Cons as bigots, racists, phobes, sexists, yawn-and-on-and-on, and that's never smearing, merely telling the "truth". Cons say Libs still haven't returned or accounted for billions of lost Canadian tax $, and that's "dirty politics" and "character assassination."

Sigh.

Hypocrisy, thy name is Liberal. Of course, dirty politics are always, always started and played by "neocons" and Rove, etc., never by Dems and Libs. Never. Innocent as babes, those liberal chaps. Merely telling everyone the truth.

"'There isn't a black family in America that doesn't have someone serving time in prison somewhere. All they have to do is dig.'

I love conservatives. 'What? We've been one-upped in the slime department? Well, let's get ON it, people!'"

I agree. There was no cause for such a low statement.

Now moving on, some SDA folks might be interested in some Palin/Biden comparisons (rather than the silly Palin/Obama apples-and-oranges ones).

For all the Democrat noise over Palin "merely" being a former municipal politician and governor of a state with an "insignificant" population:

Please remember that Senator Biden is from DELAWARE. He has been elected, and re-elected to the US Senate on no more than a hundred thousand votes (plus or minus) on each occasion.*

Also - guess what he was before he was a senator? Yup. A city councilman in Wilmington. In other words, a municpal politician.

* The population of Delaware is 850,000, only a quarter million more than Alaska.

"he's a weak leader, a view which interestingly hinges on accepting a certain view of masculinity"

Bill, so nice of you to suggest there are alternate forms of masculinity. There aren't Bill. Masculinity is defined as having qualities traditionally ascribed to men, as strength and boldness.

Key word here is traditionally. Your alternate view only appeared once the feminization of Western society got rolling in the late sixties. The result being that you, a man, would suggest that there might be a way to define Dion as masculine.

Bill's ideas on masculinity, brought to you from the halls of academia.

Best election ever. Some of the Progressives need their nappies changed. I'd like to nurse them, but my nipple's sore.

Bill : I'm just a "lowly ditch digger" , but you seem to have missed something, all the discourses you seem to think are important once where : when society kept things simple in their communities, their personal lives, and placed great value in keeping them that way. Tradition comes to mind, and governments at one time knowing their place when it comes to society.

You need to be pointing fingers at progressives, not people that have seen changes in society, and the frivolous reasons for many of them.

You just adding more gobbledygook, to a readily apparent mess.

If Sarah Palin indeed comes from simple, salt of the earth stock. The left should be more careful they don't give her ammo, to call a spade a spade.

Whine you say? You have no idea Bill.

Plenty of misogynistic hatred on the Left, including amongst those who vote Democrat.

Watch and listen to the Left from now on. Witness the insanely jealous hatred they're going to spew towards Ms. Palin just because she's a woman, smart, successful... and not-leftist. Worst of all for the Left, she's going to make history instead of a Left-winger called "Hillary".

Leftists just hate it when it's not their side "progressing". They don't care if Ms. Palin represents all women; the fact that she's not a leftist is, to them, unforgivable and somehow makes her a devil or something...

Why don't the Left simply attack Ms. Palin's conservatism? Why do they express misogynistic hatred instead? I guess it's cause there's really nothing wrong at all with being a conservative after all.

There must be nothing bad about Ms. Palin that they could use against her, seeing as they can only fabricate falsehoods and spew 'em with zealously hateful fury, sort of like the Nazis did against Jews and sort of like the "Palestinians" do against Israel. Par for the course...

Bill Stewart said "Discourses that define what it means to be a man, woman, trans, that define what security and freedom mean, what leadership means, what community means etc. And neither side wants to see the other side become hegemonic.'

Hegemonic? Bill, come on. Everybody knows what those words mean. We have dictionaries. This is not a discourse, its a friggin' full-on battle to decide if we are going to have a free country or not.

The battle between "Left" and "Right" boils down to the Left finding personal freedom and the sovereignty of the individual inconvenient, because it clashes with their economic and social theories. For Leftist economics to work, everybody has to know their place and do what they are told, because they believe people are stupid and must be controlled. That's the rock everything they do is founded on.

All the crap about sexual identity and feminism is just a bat to beat up traditionalists with. You can see just how much they mean it by their treatment of Sarah Palin.

The traditionalists are the ones who have been resisting the loss of economic freedom and individual sovereignty being imposed by the Left. They are the people who have become weary of being treated like retarded children by their institutions, and would like said institutions to back the hell off, thanks very much.

The CPC is -slightly- less wedded to central planning socialism than the Liberals, and therefore supported by traditionalists as the least evil they can get at the moment. Harper merely points out the socialist intentions of the Liberals and their obvious corruption. At best they're going to take all your money and waste it on non-functional social programs. At worst they will just take all your money.

Calling Dion a wimpy totalitarian is not a smear, Bill. Its a description. Just like calling the American Left a bunch of hate filled, misogynistic pecker heads is a description.

I am waiting for the MSM to say she is a racist. She is married to a man who is part Eskimo, but that won't count.

McCain has succeeded to changing the channel on the 24/7 Obama coverage. Good for him!

I think mike murphy - a former (
Current on the back channel?) mc Cain advisor who is now a regular on MTP - may have outlined it best. McCain took this high risk veep (gamble implies a degree of foolhardiness that denigrates/discounts mccain's application of decades worth of political wisdom IMO) option because it was his be chance to put this campaign onto the topic that has been his battle his entire political career-reforming how government governs. Palin was the only choice who truly meshed with his philosophy and who because she was female and unknown would cause enough of a stir to take the focus away from BO. If JM's reaction on fox yesterday on how much money his campaign recieved since the announcement from the conservative wing that part of SH may not have been a primary factor in his decision.

So far stage one - stealing the limelight from BO has been an unqualified success. The next stage - as murphy pointed out - will be much less certain. If SH performs well under it still may not work out if the dems succeed in putting the focus on SP's staunch conservative views and away from JMs change government meme. Things like pro-life even in the case of rape and the issue thatsunk stock day north of the border -a belief in creationism and that it should be taught at the same level as evolution are very much on the fringe of american opinion and not agreed to by most of the key swing/independent voters.

Murphy's body language and tone on MTP leads me to believe that he is not optimistic that JM can keep things from going in the latter direction.

" .. because they believe people are stupid and must be controlled. That's the rock everything they do is founded on." Phantom

IMO, it is the 'latte fascist liberals' who truly think that. The stupid intellectuals.

The 'working person left' are trying to increase their lot in life by using unworkable (no pun) socialistic means.

Dirty politics has been around forever. At least these days most just attack verbally and with bizarre conspiracy theories.

In our instant access, media overloaded age, politics has become a drama. For every person who is genuinely interested in the issues there are many more that either don't care or want to be entertained. Obama and his handlers know this and have played the game very well by making him into a celebrity - The One. Now here comes another charming personality but a style opposite to Obama's. An all-American woman with an equally engaging story but who is regular and down to earth. His story is victim politics, righting the wrongs, salvation through government programs, mysterious associations and elitism. Hers is a tale of the girl next door might make it all the way to VPOTUS and beyond. A woman who took on corruption and won her way to the top against the odds.

I think that Palin's critics should not underestimate how much people will want her to win. Attacking her teenage daughter and the parentage of her disabled infant will make the average fair-minded American want to protect her and make the uninterested take notice of her story. Obamaites could look like bullies and Obama himself risks being upstaged by her (I suspect his ego will react very badly to that).

I wonder if Ron Paul and his legions well come out and support McCain's "reforms?"

Hi Kate, you were never a big fan of McCain, what do you think of the Palin pick?

The Republicans raised 7 million over the weekend after the Palin annoucement.

Anyone else been turning down the CPC fundraising over the weekend?

The Messiah failed to marginalize the nutroots. Maybe there is something he can't do afterall.

The anger and 'hatred' shown towards political aspirants is a direct result from partisanship - and being slotted into camps.

The Amaricans have a well developed democracy, with citizens engaged and an active political discourse.

They've also allowed themselves to have drunk the koolaid that a politician can change everything.

Great marketing, but not true. The people are the government.

Those who want leadership in a pill are the same lazy asses who demonize the competition, and remove their humanity.

And the left will always be the most bitter, because they are the laziest.

lynnh at September 1, 2008 12:03 PM

"I think that Palin's critics should not underestimate how much people will want her to win. Attacking her teenage daughter and the parentage of her disabled infant will make the average fair-minded American want to protect her and make the uninterested take notice of her story."

Gord Tulk at September 1, 2008 11:50 AM

"Murphy's body language and tone on MTP leads me to believe that he is not optimistic that JM can keep things from going in the latter direction."

Gord would be correct if the Dems had held their rage in check and started out attacking those positions of Palin instead of the point of attack undertaked by the Dems. Obama's campaign started it when they first announced an un-complimentary greeting to Palin welcoming her to the race. By the time Obama could issue a retraction the genie was out of the bottle and the gnashing of teeth beganeth.

Because of this, I do believe Lynn has generously afforded us with a perception most "mothers" and an Oprah'd American society would feel towards Palin. That demographic is a significant portion of the 52% of voters in the US overall.

Seems daughter Bristol is actually 5 months pregnant (with plans to marry the father). I'm waiting for the, "Well, if she wasn't so absorbed in her work maybe her daughter wouldn't be pregnant meme" to start.

The libleft bottom feeder, aka Mikey, dives back under his rock.
...-

"Coward Michael Moore Removes His "Show Us The DNA!" Smear From Website Re: Palin's Baby
Michael Moore's Website"

Poster says: "Fortunately we took two screenshots so that the weasal can't pretend he didn't say it."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2072395/posts

Woo hoooo it has got a lot more interesting "down south" the coronation of Obama seems to have been knocked off it's little tin wheels. Sarah Palin sure seems like a breath of fresh air, a "real" person who happens to be a woman to boot. The usual leftard suspects have gone into ultra-smear mode, I think this will hurt the Obama-messiah far more than Mrs.Palin. Unlike him she has actually done things, run things, and walks the walk, does anyone else find it just a little strange that Obama has written multiple autobiography's before he has actually done anything?? Only politican I recall doing this wrote "mein kampf" the crowds adored him also that didn't end well.
cheers Bubba

This whole situation is pretty low on the morality scale.

I can't believe the left would even conjure up something like that.

Yes, it's on both CNN and Fox, that Bristol Palin, who is 17, is five months pregnant, will marry and keep the child. And that McCain knew of this situation before picking Mrs. Palin as VP nominee.

They only went public to stop the rumours that Bristol is the mother of Mrs. Palin's fifth child.
What puzzles me - is why did these rumours start? Why such a vicious slander against so many people, Mrs. Palin and her husband, Bristol, ...why such slander?

The left can't abide women who are successful outside of the Left Bloc. The Left Bloc has a specific ideology that you must accept or you are not a 'valid woman': namely, pro-abortion, adversarial against men, socialist for others but quite satisfied with enormous self-wealth. Any woman who operates outside these axioms is attacked by the left.

Now- what will be the result of the announcement of Bristol's pregnancy and marriage? The fact that Mrs. Palin is Trig's mother will obviously have to disappear. What will they attack her with now? Having her daughter marry rather than abort? Probably that will be the next theme.

Incredible how vicious the left is against successful women. The constant references to her as Mayor of a small town, utterly ignoring that she's Governor of a state - a state with a population about the same as Joe Biden's Delaware and he's only a perpetual Senator without executive experience.

Ah well - the left is in a knot.

Bill Stewart at 9:20 AM

tho there is merit to your position as to IDENTITY, that is not the point being made here. One of the key planks of liberalism is EQUALITY, this includes gender equality, thus liberals have positioned themselves to be held to a higher standard in this mater, and yet they are more vicious on their attacks pertaining to gender. This is not just an observation in conjunction with the Palin thing, but in general every day life as well, I'v commented on this for at least 20 years.

So I feel you should really step back and try and grasp the essence of what is happening.

And as far as the portion of you " rove, cheney, etc" comment, well lets just say the mass media has opened a door that does not lead to a rose garden. Something that should be addressed and dealt with, and rove and company only fine tuned the art, Clinton and company were no strangers (even to other dems)to this sort of thing.

"There isn't a black family in America that doesn't have someone serving time in prison somewhere. All they have to do is dig."

I'll second the motion that slurs of this nature are unwelcome here.

Besides, even if it were true, it doesn't apply to Obama. He doesn't come from a black American family. He is as alien to the average black American family as Stephane Dion is alien to the average Quebecois family.

Both carpetbaggers to the core!

Bill Stewart comes on here and makes declarations that he apparently cannot support, then he expects us to listen to him.

"Hegemonic"? Must have fallen asleep last night reading Chomsky.

I am still waiting to see how the Swift boaters lied about Kerry's claim that he was in Cambodia on Christmas day, 1968. Still waiting.

To Bill Stewart's way of thinking, even to state an opinion, e.g. that these troglydites that are smearing Palin support Obama, and therefore are on his "team" is to lie.

Battle tactics. Choosing the terrain and executing suprises flawlessly, nailing the timing, and getting the lucky break that the adversaries first re-action is a bad one, even a wrong one that hurts them more than the suprise.

Interesting to note the only candidate with military training and experience is McCain.

Chopping off the medias pending love-in for the ones ascension has taken control of the fight away from Democrats, forced a major error right off the bat (small-town mayor is a bad thing?) and sparked the interest of the conservative base. And they will IMHO react very strongly to the smears being flung right now, at a very popular sitting Governor and her family.

The frog, having believed the scorpion, could not understand being stung in the middle of the river...you knew what I was...

The Democrats embraced their hard left, allowed them access to the agenda and the tone (and look at the tone right now), and now have a very ugly choice. McCain is deep inside their decision loop, has them off-balance, and has had a long time to prepare his battle plan.

bluetech: "The heart of the feminist is not about what a woman can accomplish, or about opportunity. It is a disdain for the Judeo-Christian family model."

ET: "The left can't abide women who are successful outside of the Left Bloc."

Exactly. There's the "equality feminist" who, as ET points out is pro-abortion, anti-men, and on the government gravy train ('finds it hard to succeed, let alone exist, when not slurping at the public trough: LEAF, HRCs, SOW, etc.) and then there's the rest of us for whom the "equality feminist" has only disdain, contempt, and ridicule.

I've never actually met a radical feminist I like, and they tend to hate me.

So, Bristol Palin is five months pregnant? One more front on which Sarah Palin can relate to North American women and families. I don't think there are too many families who haven't had someone become pregnant out of wedlock. The Palins and John McCain didn't try to hide it: They could have left Bristol at home and made some excuse, but they didn't.

The Left is being hoist on its own petard. Every time they open their mouths to belittle Sarah Palin and her family, they show their true colours which are dark, nasty, and ugly.

America is watching.

“Ah well - the left is in a knot.”: ET

And they’re becoming increasingly shrill in their desperation to maintain the sociological pendulum at the extreme position they have managed to achieve since the 1960s. Is it possible that a direction reversal is inevitable.

So,let me get this straight.According to the Dems,a teenaged girl,that has a little unplanned pregnancy..is worth the smear campaign of the century,but Billy Boy,the former Pres.is the biggest man-slut ever in politics,and that's ok?? Got it!

Dear ET,
Yes, I've taken my share of graduate and undergraduate continental philosophy and poststructuralism inspired courses. In fact, I've even taught a few university courses on the subject. Making fun of a topic or characterizing an argument as "undergraduate" does invalidate an argument.

"has it ever occurred to you that this jargon is, itself, a discourse and therefore, an abstract creation of the mind? And far, far removed from reality?"
Of course it has, considering one of the mantras of poststructuralism by Derrida, of which you are no doubt familiar, is "There is nothing outside the text." I cannot speak from a position outside of textuality. Now I'm not sure what you mean by reality, but based on the confidence with which you refer to "reality", it only makes me suspicious because there is where pure ideological chauvinism resides. As I see it, "reality" is not removed from discourses, but rather impossible without them.

"The two realities, the physical and the conceptual, interact." or you can't socialize a desklamp.
Agreed, now that we don't have the single monolithic reality that you seemed to have command of previously, but I still find it interesting that the material is factual and the discursive is fictional. Have you ever seen anyone act without "discourse"? I would argue that even the so-called instincts in human beings are refracted through culture. Eating is never simply an instinct. Sex likewise, otherwise there would be a lot of frustrated women out there if men performed every time exactly the same way as they did their first time :) There's nothing fictional about culture and its discourses.

"However, normative roles are only the average, and are dependent upon the ECONOMIC identity of the society."
Are you outing yourself as a dialectical materialist, a Marxist no less. If so, welcome aboard. Marx couldn't have said it better himself. Also, if my discursive identity is constrained it's not because discourse is fictional, it's because I am a body, a human one at that, situated in time and extended in a particular space. Thus, I am different from a Tibetan monk not because of the fictionality or untruthfullness of discourses, but because of the culture(s) I happened to have been born into.

"To attack someone, ad hominem, is always reprehensible."
Except of course when you do it by trivializing another's words as undergraduate, jargon, etc.
"Your obvious leftist bias (and that includes your focus on discursive identities) means that you ignore the Democrat and Liberal smear campaigns"
I tend to agree with the first part. Both that I have a bias (everyone does, it's called discourse) and leftists might be more open to postmodernism. However, I completely disagree with the second part. Not only do I mention in my comment that the Liberal (and I would add sometimes Leftist) fear mongering regarding Harper's conservatism was no better than what the Conservatives did, but also I've often stated that I hold equal contempt for Liberal and Conservative ideology. Liberals and Conservatives despite their differences, hold, as a point of departure, the assumption that capitalism is beyond reproach. Socialists hold, as a point of departure, the assumption that at the very least, capitalism must be challenged and reformed. Thus, the reason I'd prefer to be called a moonbat than a Liberal. Liberals are your retarded brothers. :)
p.s. I wasn't deflecting, I have received rude comments from people invalidating my arguments on the basis that they have received a MA degree.

"Leadership and 'manhood' are not synonyms".
No, but one's view of what constitutes masculinity certainly affect one's expectations surrounding leadership. For many, leadership remains the purview of men only, and then only of certain kinds of men (strong, powerful, phallic, controlling). For some a leader need not be a man, perhaps a person who enables other to do their best, who brings out the best in others, who brings together a strong collaborative team etc. My point was simply that one of the things being decided in the next election is what expectations do Canadians have surrounding leadership? Harper represents a controlling, more masculine type of leader and Dion represents a more decentralized, less masculine type of leader. I'm simply saying that way one defines masculinity for oneself tend to affect one's expectations of a leader. I'm not sure what's contentious about that.
ps. I'm not saying the neocons invented smears and dirty politics. I'm simply saying, in part through their success, they helped make them normative. Since it's now commonplace, no one should be whining about it, least of all neocons.
Peace, or not

Could Bill Stewart be new/food media/haye,etc?

I can't get over the doublethink involved in focusing on Palin's experience. It is more than Obama's by any traditional measure. I hope they keep it up, because, as people realize how inexperienced Obama is, they are going to swallow hard before voting for him.

The quote in the post that KS has up is actually one of the more moderate ones.............

Well the website is well and truely named, The Superficial.

Now some callers on CNN radio are suggesting that this is Bristol's second pregnancy, the first being, of course, little Trig. And the host does nothing but fan the flames! Hey Moonbats. God is NOT on your side. I think it's someone else with horns on his head.

"Could Bill Stewart be new/food media/haye,etc?": h.ryan

I stopped reading his post when he "post-graduated" to prolixity.

Simple questions Bill.Yes or No.
Do you think women have the right to control their own bodies?
Do you think women can be successful at a career and still raise a family?
Your family has never had a pregnant teen?
When did you stop beating your wife/kids?

The Palins have responded to the smears...

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/gov-palin-says.html

I doubt, however, that the Leftists and the MSM will stop. But let's see if they continue. And see what Obama says or doesn't say about those raving moonbat lunatics he considers his supporters. Is he smearing Palin by proxy? Letting his minions do the dirty poo-chucking work whilst he pseudonobly struts around in his fancy suit, uttering fancy, meaningless slogans, making the brainless Progressicollective swoon?

h.ryan, interesting theory. The bullroar is about the same, just without the fake immigrant shtick.

What about it, Bill?

By the way, not to put spike in your front wheel or anything, but all your prose rests upon a false assumption, as does all of post modernism.

Human nature is not malleable. There's a fixed set of machinery that culture runs on top of, in the manner of software running on hardware (but far more complex, obviously). Culture, or as you say "discourse" is what we use to mediate between the conditions we find ourselves in and our "mechanical", as in biological/neurological/physical nature.

Changing the conditions will allow cultures to change. Fiddling with the culture will not change the conditions. Nothing at all changes human nature.

Post Modernism is backwards.

I wonder how long it will take for the Democrats to figure out that the Palin's pregnant daughter story works against them. It only makes VP candidate more human and exposes the biggest weakness of Obama/Biden: being o phony and pretentious. That is the biggest weakness beside having army of crazy supporters.

Soccermom: "Now some callers on CNN radio are suggesting that this is Bristol's second pregnancy, the first being, of course, little Trig. And the host does nothing but fan the flames!"

How low can these people go? Already, it's quite clear that Sarah Palin was pregnant before the birth of Trig. Even the moonbats at KOS have had to back off the slimey slander:

Under a photo of Sarah Palin: "OK, there is a visibly-pregnant Sarah Palin talking with a CBS ...Juneau reporter at the Governor's meeting in...the Alaska legislative session. She clearly appears to be pregnant."

This rumour-mongering is one of the most disgusting smear campaigns I've ever seen. Surely, the position of Vice Presidential candidate, itself, should not be dragged through the mud, let alone the individual running for this office.

The moonbats are utterly beside themselves, they're hysterical, they're not thinking straight. As Revnant Dream has put it, they're having a very public nervous breakdown.

I think they'd better snap out of it. They're doing inestimable damage to their own candidates. And, if Barack Obama is a leader, he'll nip all of this disgusting speculation in the bud. It's in his interest to do so, otherwise his silence could be construed as support for the smear tactics.

It will be interesting to see who is the most tolerant and forgiving of the teens unintended pregnancy - the feminist left or the religious right. I would bet that the loudest outrage will be from the "every lifestyle is a personal choice (unless you disagree with us)" side.

The best thing the democrats could do is have M.Obama make a statement that she, like all mothers with daughters, respect the private and personal nature of the situation. It would show a measure of class and dignity and set the tone for the dem supporters to treat the Palins like opponents not enemies (one of the hallmarks of good sportsmanship).

lynhh...considering the viciousness of the attacks I think nothing left to Obama campaign but to defend Palin......

(....and I thought American soap operas are boring)

LOL - Palin was a member of the Alaska Independence Party! A Secessionist! YeeHaw!!

The Leftists don't go after male politicians as viciously, hatefully and recklessly as they're going after Ms. Palin with their vicious, caustic, hateful, gossip-mongering smears. What does this make the Leftists, if not sexists, misogynists?

And why is it that Bill Clinton can get away with various sex offences, lying under oath, etc., etc., and they only think he's oh, soooo wonderful nevertheless? I remember how they were so vociferous in defending him and I now marvel at the contrast between that and what they're doing today.

Leftists are, as we speak, showing us their true colors.

Apparently Leftists believe it's ok for them to be hateful, as long as they're Leftists. Being Leftist absolves one of everything, apparently!

CS...add to your list...wonder how many lefty politicians (both sides of the border) have arranged for their teens to have abortions?

Nothing so open minded as sweeping it under the rug, or throwing the baby in the trash.

Phantom, I bow to your superiority. In this thread not only have I been told what "reality" and "the World" are, now I have dogmatically been told that human nature, whatever it is, is not malleable. If you mean, as I suggested above, that you can't socialize a desk lamp into human society because it doesn't have the minimum conditions for acceding to human culture, I agree.

But if you mean that human nature is immutable and inevitable, I disagree. In my view, human nature is itself a construct, or at the very least, as Foucault once told Chomsky (who by the way is more inclined to agree with you), there are at least two human natures: the bourgeoisie has a human nature and the proletariat has a very different human nature. Old language, but could fairly easily be translated into current parlance.
Since you know what the true and undisputed human nature is, do tell us who was right: Hobbes or Locke, or was it Mill? Someone else?

So her 17 year-old daughter is pregnant,oh my,like that is so unusual. IMHO,the only way that this will affect Mrs. Palin is that in 4 months she will change from a MILF to a GILF.

look, bill - your postmodernist discourse is, as you say, just your own textuality. It has no reality outside yourself. And I consider it pure pompous blather.

Describing a text as Undergraduate blather is a valid description. It means that you haven't stepped outside the jargon and critically analzyed it. Describing someone who might potentially disagree with you as 'pimply faced MA' is ad hominem.

No, bias is not a synonym for discourse. Bias means an ignorant, uninformed perspective. A discourse can readily be informed and based on facts. You are biased.

What nonsense - your statement that 'pure ideological chauvinism' resides in reality. Totally meaningless.
Believe it or not, trapped within conceptualism as you are, there IS a reality outside of your own narcissistic self-absorption. And it exists without you and doesn't give a damn what you say or discourse about it. A biological cell gets along quite well without your or any, discourse on it.

I can't stand Derrida's empty rhetoric.

You don't understand the term 'fiction'; it doesn't mean imaginary. It means socially created, ie, a cultural construct. As I said, we live in both worlds, the factual and the fictional, and the factual, which is hard reality, constrains the fictional.

Eating IS an instinct and is then moulded within the symbolisms and habits of culture. What's your point?

No, I don't, as do you, equate the Liberals and Conservatives in their political ideology. The Liberals are corrupt; their ideology has one item; power. The Conservative ideology is focused on the well-being of the country and citizens.

No, because someone posits that the economy is basic to society doesn't mean they are a Marxist. What nonsense - do you seriously think that Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, Keynes etc - and all those Nobel prizewinners of Economics were Marxists? heh.

Kindly explain how capitalism should be challenged and reformed.

My, my, you do have a fixation on 'maleness', don't you.

Your latest textual rhetoric (you write as if you've memorized all the undergrad postmodernist texts)...on leadership is pure rubbish. First, you claimed that Harper was attacking Dion's 'masculinity'. Now, you are slithering out of your original attack with:

"Harper represents a controlling, more masculine type of leader and Dion represents a more decentralized, less masculine type of leader."

Nonsense; these descriptions are empty. Dion isn't a leader and what the heck is a decentralized leader? Dion doesn't enable anyone to do anything. You are slithering out of your first attack on Harper which was to tell us that Harper was attacking Dion's 'manhood'. Now, you are retracting...

Then, you write:
"ps. I'm not saying the neocons invented smears and dirty politics. I'm simply saying, in part through their success, they helped make them normative. Since it's now commonplace, no one should be whining about it, least of all neocons"

Bill- you are slithering again. We aren't talking about the INVENTION of smears and dirty politics. YOU used the term to denigrate the Conservatives. YOU compared them with the 'neocons'. I asked you to explain yourself and to show how the Conservatives were 'influenced by neocons'. You said it after all. Don't change the topic.

And don't do the smug pompous 'peace' ending; that's a strategy of claiming superiority.

At Rush Limbaugh's site is a transcript from his show with "The New Face of Feminism" and 2 recent photos of Mrs. Palin and Mrs. Clinton. Under the photos is stated... "Hillary's place taken by another woman - again"

gotta love Rush, his skin is thick enough to take the crap and he never fails to dish out.

I understand he signed a fairly big contract ($400 million?) covering the next few years, I think it was negotiated with the opinion that Hussien Obama will be the next POTUS and that would provide Rush with sufficient ammo to sell his show.
good luck to those people paying his bills...

Rush loves the McCain-Palin ticket, and so do I.
Clearly the left has really been affected (infected?) by the choice of Palin as running mate, they didn't see this coming, truly they've been blindsided, I hope the worst for them.

Good point, Bluetech.

The Left forgets that if they're going to get nasty and fabricate smears, they open themselves up to having us non-lefties use the most inconvenient of all damaging truths against them that we mightn't otherwise have.

But they never see anything coming, so, well, not our problem... if we don't fight back, with equivalent return fire, they'll win by cheating, and we can't allow that.

Hey Bill, here is a good one for you. Eddie Stelmac must be King Phallic, since he beat the sh*t out of Taft, Martin and Hindman. "EH".

I did see to much dirty politics on the conservative side but the liberal and ndp sure threw it around.

We, who voted for Stelmac are watching pretty close to see where this is leading us.

If people want the equality then work for it. Equality is never appreciated until they receive through work, never appreciated when it is handed to them on a plate.

I see women in the lumber, oil, farm and retail, just name a few who have started out at the "goon spoon end", the bottom of the heap and worked themselves up to management and this applies to men as well.

It has been handed to people to long and is what now they want. Look at most people entering the work force, people in politics. You do not get good management until they have actually done the job. This means actually working for a living.

Take the two "Dems" for example, they have sucked and been supported by the government of the day for all their life. Now take the two "Reps" for example, one made lots of money and I am quiet sure he has had to step on a few necks to get it, "who cares". The other on has been a working mother whose husband has had to work to raise and maintain a decent lifestyle for "kids and for themselves" in the far north. I have worked in the Arctic and it is not freaking "izzy monies".

The right or left can smear or bitch about rights, values, wasted money, wasted time and effort just to name a few. When you attack a persons family, "IE" "such as the did on Sarah Palin's daughter", you would be very lucky that they are protected by everybody crying free speech.

As far as the said daughter being pregnant, "SO F*CKING WHAT", I think that young people haven't change since I was that age. We did it, they do it. Her decision will be hers and the boys, "NOBODY ELSES". I am quite sure this was discussed between all parties involved.

That Bill is a grown up decision.

Now take the ones who want the handouts, want the nanny state, the ones that want equality, the ones that want to be on top of management, the ones that want to be in political control are the ones who are not the smartest people or leaders. "THEY JUST KNOW THE SYSTEM AND SUCK OFF THE GOVERMENT TEAT". You get people who leave their kids in the hospital for the long weekends because they want their four day bash with drugs and alcohol parties, leave their kids at day cares to raise from the time they are old enough to walk until school age and then send them to school. When some thing F*cks up, scream blue bloody murder that it was the government's fault.

Now take the people who actually work for a living, pinching pennies to bring up their standard of living. These people do not start out in management positions, the have to perform at an acceptable level of work before these said people will be put forth into the management level. You do not hear about these people because they are raising families, making adjustments as their family grows.

The computer and Internet access has opened the world for these people. We are hearing the screams from the nanny state lefts, "which is quite pleasant". They seem to have trouble putting forth a argument that is really worth reading or listening to before the hard working rights are being called "racist, pigs, anti-socialist" just to name few.

Now the hard working right is fighting back. You will lose because of the right wants to know where their "izzy monies" are being spent.

Bill, I am no learned individual, "never went past grade 9", but I have worked for a living since I was sixteen, 36 years. I have trained young people in the oil industry for supervisory positions since I was 19 years old. I have seen both sides and the people who had to work for a living has done much better than those that did not.

Usually the people who made it was raised in families with moral guidance, hard work ethics and people who cared what went on around them. This included politics, understanding where their tax dollars went.

The people who were raised on the socialist programs were about one in ten that made it in the same time frame, one in five with multiple job try's. We just called it, "being hungry". The ones that did make it was not long in turning to right and saying to the left, "WHAT THE F*CK ARE YOU DOING".

It has being my experience that I would much rather deal with the people whom have had to work their way to top of management than those who were handed the position.

I do not know, maybe I am off the wall with this one. When McCain asked Palin would you be my VP, I am quite sure that she thought about it and discussed it with "FIRST DUDE", then with "FAMILY", then made the adult discussion about the VP position. If they want to sling mud on her family values, "let them", it will show how low they can get.

The "Dems" are showing a couple of cheap suits and I mean this in the most derogatory manner, because when it comes to dealing with the ultraviolent left, they will fold like a couple of cheap suits.

The "Reps" are showing a couple of real hard working people. Both of them have made decisions based on how they lived and acted. They have faced the leftest comments for a long time, I am quite sure they will handle this one.

Bill, if you had to have the one pushing the button at "3am", whom would you prefer, somebody that has actually used a gun and brought back food for the table of a government guy who's been working in the useless department since the beginning of time.

Bill Stewart....boy, you have been hiding in the dialectic woods for too long. The industrial Revolution is over, the world has changed. Lay off Chomsky, try Munger's "Psychology of human misjudgment", and if you are stubborn to think about the society in terms of classes, try this: cosmopolitan vs. local.

OT, but the meeting is over and as predicted by many Dion has no agreement with PMSH. And again, Dion has that smirk on his face like a small child, saying, look mommy I tied my shoes by myself. In Dion's case, he has tied his together.
Liberals are ready and will win the election. Just ask Dion or possibly Jason. Reporters asking where they got the money. Green shift will sell.

this is good.. Palin supported the alaskan separatists.. just like I do.. Vive l'Alaska Libre..

you can see her support message here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4iCDBIAde8

By the way, there is no way that Bristol could be the mother of both Trig and also be five months pregnant. It takes a few months for the woman to be able to become pregnant after a birth.

It is absolutely astonishing how the left, the self-declared haven of 'tolerance, acceptance, feminism, blah blah' has exploded in hysteria in reaction to Mrs. Palin being declared the VP nominee.

And why hasn't Obama told his followers to shut up? Why hasn't Michelle Obama told his followers to shut up? lynnh - I like your suggestions very much.

bill- you refuse to accept that your views are open to criticism. Other people have different conclusions about reality and the 'world'. After all, you have informed us of your views of both. What's wrong with others telling you about their views? Since you believe in individual discourses, then, you can't conclude that only your discourse is 'right'.

Phantom wasn't being 'dogmatic' although you certainly are open to such a criticism because you don't accept the 'discourse' of others.

So, you are a follower of Foucault; I'm not. What's your point about the 'bourgeoisie and the proletariat'? The fact is, both are, like you, locked into a particular perspective. That's sad - to be trapped within a discourse and not know that there is reality outside the discourse.

The function of knowledge is to constantly attempt to reach that reality rather than remain trapped within one's discursive tales. Try reading Karl Popper's 'Objective Knowledge'.

Boycott the odious Beagle Blogger for starting the rumour in the first place.

Oh...Poor Kate,
The Palin's have previously released info that their 18 year old daughter is pregnant....the downe syndrome baby is Sarah's, not the daughters.

Do you have difficulty shaving in the morning?
Does your nose grow as you tell each lie?

Don't you feel rediculous now?

“I have said before and I will repeat again: People’s families are off limits,” Obama said. “And people’s children are especially off-limits. This shouldn’t be part of our politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin’s performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president. So I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories. You know my mother had me when she was 18, and how a family deals with issues and teenage children, that shouldn’t be a topic of our politics.”

dizzy: Do you have a link for Obama's telling people to back off Governor Palin and her family? He's right on target. Good for him.

batb said: "dizzy: Do you have a link for Obama's telling people to back off Governor Palin and her family? He's right on target. Good for him."

Except that he's defined that turf as part of his sales package, and been caught out on it. He's now "infamous" "punished with a baby" Pa. speech is loading up on blogs via youtube as we speak, in direct comparison to Gov. Palin's announcement concerning her daughter's pregnancy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNzmly28Bmg

CNN's Wolf Blitzer show had a vicious anti-Palin report on about a half hour ago, with a woman reporter almost drooling with joy as she informed us of the 'rumours' that Trig was really Bristol's child, and that Bristol is, herself, five months pregnant. This reporter then went on to assert that this proves that Sex Education ought to be mandatory in schools and ...etc..etc. You get the drift. It was vicious.

Then, a man (didn't get his name)..chastized CNN for this 'new low in reporting'; stating that this report by CNN should never have aired; that it was despicable...while Blitzer tried to steer the very valid criticism to a red herring, ie, that 'sex education ought to be taught in schools'..The real issue was the depths of personal attacks being carried out by the Democratic MSM against Mrs. Palin.

I must say - I haven't seen such a vicious, hysterical attack against anyone as the Democratic left has launched in the US against Mrs. Palin.

Yes, CNN and Fox and others are indeed reporting that Obama has come out and said that 'families are off limits'..and that his own mother had him when she was 18.
However, Obama is criticizing Palin that she doesn't support 'equal pay for equal work'. The trouble is, they couldn't provide any evidence of such a claim. They said that McCain didn't support such ..and therefore, that meant that neither did Palin.

"The Obama campaign could not provide immediate proof Palin’s opposition to Equal Pay - and instead only connected Palin to McCain’s opposition.

“Senator McCain has a clear record of opposing equal pay and as his running mate Governor Palin is tasked with promoting his agenda,” Obama spokesman Jen Psaki says. "

Heh - so, a VP is a clone of the President? No kidding. But she's also against the theme of global warming and McCain accepts it; she supports drilling and he's against it...and..and..

Being illogical is fun if you're an Obamaist.

Bill Stewart at 2:23 PM

Intellectual masturbation. Worthless.

"equal pay for equal work" is a crock. Its not about paying people the same money to do the same job, its about the government deciding how much different trades are worth and what people should be payed, instead of the market. Its already illegal to pay two people different amounts to do the same job because they are different sexes.

"Leftists are, as we speak, showing us their true colors.

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at September 1, 2008 3:41 PM"

Even if the McCain/Palin ticket were to lose in November they will have served in pushing the vile nature of the far left so far out into the openly public discourse that one would hope that the voters would finally realize that they, also, must share in wearing the stench. Pendulums swing...

I saw that Wolf segment on CNN with the Bill Bennett exchange. Here Obama had just made a pronouncement telling his constituency to 'back off!'. Actually impressive; one of the few examples I've seen where Ombama seemed genuine, and within minutes it's all blown apart with the report back from Alaska and Wolf trying to spin it all into flame again. They just can't help themselves.

Bill Bennett was the man attacking Wolfe. Poor Wolfe kept trying to win the argument but Bill kept it up. The females on the panel were on Wolfe's side, and John King slipped in when can we get her on the panel and ask her about this and the trooper story. I think the cnn staff knows they have been rebuked. Now some female anchor is saying the govenors family had a secret and had to go public today. If many people know something it is not a secret, cnn was again left out of the loop. Donna Bash lost out when she tried to get negative stories from an Alaskan male delegate. She asked, what do you think of the story Sarah's daughter is pregnant, he said she needs love and a hug, happened to me and today I am the proud grandfather of an 18 yr old granddaughter who is starting college this fall. It has happend to thousands of american families, life happens. Now cnn is saying it is a bombshell announcement. Why.

They are not Obama's dogs, but he can call them off...

The video of Bill Bennett is now on you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUsrTV_DSuc

ET said

"""""By the way, there is no way that Bristol could be the mother of both Trig and also be five months pregnant. It takes a few months for the woman to be able to become pregnant after a birth."""""

there is a term, "Irish twins" which is used when childern are less then a year apart by birth. Some are less then 11 month apart, as one of my friends and his sister are, so ET, it is improbable, not impossible.

Fact is years ago there was a reported case were a mother was pregnant twice, 4 months apart. That ment she carried 2 babies at the same time for 4 to 5 months, one was white, the other black, so 2 different fathers. So please be carefull with you assertions, as you contibute much to these dicussions and I hate to see you discredited by these small errors.

Unequal pay is myth. If women would earn less then men, every company would be trying to employ only woman to beat-up competition in labour costs.

Mother's ready to hit the campaign trail while she's got a four month old infant.

Meanwhile her seventeen year old daughter announces her pregnancy.

Family values, folks!

I watched the Bennett/Wolfe exchange. I think someone from the control told Wolfe via his ear piece to shut the F up, because it seemed that someone on the panel was going to.

If McCain can get the votes of all the women who were pregnant at their weddings, it'll be a landslide!

gym - we are talking about probabilities not improbabilities. Trig, the baby was born on April 18, four and a half months ago. Bristol is five months pregnant. OK?

Now, back to the viciousness of the left in their slander and libellous attacks against Palin. I don't think I've seen anything as vicious, irrational as the blind fury of the left against Palin. And especially the leftist women; they are having hysteric fits against her. Why?

It's pure slander. What CNN did was yellow 'journalism'; it was pure and open slander.

O'Reilly has pointed out that Daily Kos has been engaged all day in blatant libel of Palin and her daughter - and Obama, after all, had previously shown his support for Daily Kos. Will Obama renounce Daily Kos?

real - how does working the campaign trail and having a five month old show neglect of family values? Are you supposed to sit by the crib? So, her daughter is pregant - and keeping the baby. That's family.

Real: Your comment is bigotted, sexist, intolerant, and ignorant to boot. There is room for you in leftist politics ... I'd give it a try.

Since last Friday, we have been shown, beyond a doubt, that nobody ... and I mean nobody ... is more bigotted and intolerant than the left. This goes for journalists to the mud-crawlers who sometimes troll this blog. In one fell swoop McCain brought out the worst in the left ... where even the Urban Bourgeois Liberals couldn't contain themselves. It's as if the curtain was lifted and all the filth was revealed.

My, what a lightning rod this Sarah Palin is.

Kyra Phillips (?), the reporter from Alaska who was the catalyst in the CNN Wolf/Bennett exchange, did a fresh piece just now for Larry King Live. It is insane the mouth-frothing vehemence being demonstrated. How can they hate the lady-Governor from Alaska to such a degree?

BO maybe sincere or he may be laying down a marker in order to per-empt a damaging revelation about his wife and some of the things she has said i.e. anti-white or people she hangs with.

The baby rumour is almost 100% sure to be bogus, but unless we have absolute confirmation that sarah's daughter is at least 5 months pregnant not 4.5 then we cannot completely rule it out. That said, unless those publishing such rumours have concrete proof they should stfu.

What where watching is simply the collective left having a simultaneous nervous break down. They have no idea how to react so have reverted to atavistic norms. Innuendo piled on slurs with no water.

I am so enjoying the circus. Its like watching clowns fall while trying to do a trapeze act with no net. The lemmings have really soiled themselves this time round. The more they sound off the better. The true face of the progressives has appeared at last.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkEvy-9yVyQ

If O was really serious about calling off the dogs he would fire his supporter/campaigner who was on Meet the Press yesterday, who said they would not attack Sarah, but would let the media do it instead. Seems they are following orders.
Did anyone read/see the first comment from O's team after the announcement. If that wasn't a hint to the media to go at her nothing was. He had to make a different comment and try to recind the first one. He said today that he has 2500 working on his campaign (to prove he can lead) and can he guarantee that not one of those 2500 didn't comment on Kos, or spread rumors on other blogs. I am beginning to think his people are worse than the Clinton clan. Can't wait till tomorrow to get Rush's take on all this.

donny n...she wasn't a product of their media manipulation,that's why.

"He said today that he has 2500 working on his campaign (to prove he can lead) and can he guarantee that not one of those 2500 didn't comment on Kos, or spread rumors on other blogs.

maryt...was that a typo...did he say 'he can guarantee'..?

If he did then either he's a liar , deluded or a complete control freak with cultish following. It's impossible to know what 2,500 staff have been up to this w/e.
Silly man. And silly people who would believe such a shallow puff ball statement.

"equal pay for equal work"

Most jobs in the private sector are negotiated and payed on an individual basis; therefore, negotiation is a large factor on how much an individual will be paid. I have read that women typically will accept the first offer of an employer. I think some of the pay inequity issue boils down to girls not being given the tools that are often passed on to boys from their fathers.

I spent many years in retail and a common sight was the father showing the son how to get a deal. I can also count on one hand how many women attempted to dicker with me on a ticket price(1 in 10 yrs). To her credit she walked and took her buisness elsewhere, good for her.

http://www.womendontask.com/stats.html

Hey Paul

You think the high energy relentless 24/7 intensity of a modern politcal campaign leaves lotsa quality time for a four month old baby, huh?

And the 17 year old daughter of a 'social conservative' getting pregnant with no wedding bells - no contradiction there, right?

You guys don't even have the integrity to remain true to your discredited ideology.

Opportunists, each and every one.

Haven't dropped in here for awhile. Looks like this Canadian site has been over run by President Obama bashers. I kind of liked the CWB bashing better and is more in line with what you would expect from a Saskatchewan farm girl.

Hey real - can you pull off this trick you're so painfully striving to affect (hoisting the Palins on the petard of what you percieve "social conservative" values to be) without sounding like such a prig?

I mean, you obviously don't have any time for the more rigid values of the past, so why are you trying to damn the Palins with them? Is it possible - here, just entertain the thought for a second - that religious conservatives might be prepared to live with the challenges and complications of the modern world as well? Like teenagers who have sex and the likelihood that women might value their careers as much as men? Can you walk straight after twisting yourself into such a pretzel to make your point?

Actually, mccarthur, your bashing is very much in line with CNN, Daily Kos and other leftist. It's personal, malicious and totally, utterly bereft of logic. Ah well. Such is the nature of the leftist.

real- your opinions are without merit. You see, you aren't being 'real'. You aren't a realist. Being a conservative and a realist means that IF your daughter becomes pregnant, you don't bury them in the sand and kill them by stoning; you don't insist that they 'choose' an abortion. Instead, you accept reality; you acknowledge a new life and you support your daughter in enabling that new life.

Being 'real' means that you can, as a father,go back to work. You can also go back to work if you are a mother. A child needs both parents, and the two months of a campaign when that child is four months old, won't harm him.

indianahomez - nice comment. Very accurate.

And I wonder if Obama's people are behind the Bash and Smash Palin campaign. He can declare he's squeaky clean but the left, which is his base, is currently showing its true colours: malicious, vicious slander. That's the left.

Real,

A little sexist are you? So answer this, how can Obama be a father and run for president at the same time? I thought that this is what the left has been fighting for, or does it only apply to people with your same political views?

Real: Clearly, you have no idea of what "social conservatives" stand for ... nor those of us who are not social conservatives. Worse yet, you can't fathom the size of tent that conservatives have erected ... for it is much larger and more inclusive than the ever shrinking shack that the left is struggling to maintain.

Again, your bigoted, ignorant, sexist, and ill-informed comments only serve to diminish those on the left who still believe in tolerance.

Rick

I'm not 'damning' the Palins at all. Merely showing how the values of the brethren here are entirely situational.

Palin's baby is put forth as a solid credential for her candidacy among the social conservatives. Therefore it's entirely appropriate to wonder how that same baby is to be cared for when the mother has committed herself to the mad intensity of a modern knock-down drag-out campaign for the next two months.

It's also appropriate to wonder what the mother was doing travelling by plane in her 3rd trimester -- and taking an eight hour plane ride after her water broke.

As well, since Palin has designated herself as opposed to sex education and in favour only of 'abstinence only' education, it really isn't priggish to point out that the 'priggish' advice she would dole out to other people's children came up empty with her own daughter.

What's really entertaining is seeing the pretzels you guys are twisting youselves into trying to justify McCain's preposterous choice. You must be dreading what tomorrow's news will bring.

But then he could have nominated a ham sandwich and you guys would be frothing at the mouth defending it. Good little lemmings in lockstep!

Paul

"you can't fathom the size of the tent that conservatives have erected"

I'll abstain, thanks! :)

And I wonder if Obama's people are behind the Bash and Smash Palin campaign.

I haven't really studied it, but Charles Johnson (Little Green Footballs) has done some sleuthing and found that the source of some of those smear sites was the Obama campaign itself.

Obama is a communist thug, pure and simple, and therefore any MO will be acceptable, following the dictum that "eggs must be broken to make an omelet". He has set himself the task of "transforming America" so Palin is a very small sacrifice for such a noble task.

And did we notice the narcissisitc basis for his announcement to back off: that his own mother had him when she was 18. Self-referential ad nauseum, eh?

Posted by: batb "dizzy: Do you have a link for Obama's telling people to back off"

I cribbed it from some blog -- it's all over. But here is a Reuters report --
http://blogs.reuters.com/trail08/2008/09/01/media-should-back-off-bristol-palin-obama-says/

Real: :)

"You think the high energy relentless 24/7 intensity of a modern politcal campaign leaves lotsa quality time for a four month old baby, huh?"

Well, the child does have a father and is part of good family structure. They will help take care of the baby while the mother is busy working. In case you didn't know, women are allowed to have jobs now.

"And the 17 year old daughter of a 'social conservative' getting pregnant with no wedding bells - no contradiction there, right?"

So, shit happens. Kids don't always listen to their parents and sometimes make stupid decisions. How they deal with the consequences is more important. And how are they dealing with it in this situation?

"You guys don't even have the integrity to remain true to your discredited ideology."

Accountability and not allowing our race/gender to be our main defining characteristic is one of the main parts of our ideology here. Please show us how that has been discredited?

I've observed that the rules of sex apply ONLY to other people, NEVER to so-cons. As long as you PRETEND to believe their crap, you'll be forgiven anything, even held up as a hero.

A liberal's daughter who has a baby out of wedlock is a slut and a tramp. A so-con's daugnter who does it is a little hero who chose to give the gift of life.

Get real, real. BTW, what's with denial the Dems seem to have that Palin is a currently serving state governor. Obama just put his foot in his mouth (on CNN which seems to have completely abandoned any pretense of impartiality), where, remarking about Palin's experiencenoted as a small town mayor,had 50 staff while his campaign currently "employs" 2500 people.

Pardon? Having a mostly volunteer organization, running for office, is the same as being the GOVERNOR OF A US STATE?

As a friend pointed out, please bring it on, Joe and Mary Sixpack will see it for what it is, gutter politics. They are losing it.

Imagine if HRC's daughter was pregnant. Work that one through in your mind. Are they actually arguing that having a pregnant daughter and downs child makes a woman unacceptable for executive office. How misogynist is that folks.

I wonder when the Democrats will wake up from their self-induced nightmare.

Real, the only pretzel I see is your attempt to pretend that conservatives and liberals live not only in different countries, but different eras in history. As a parent, I'd have wished that Palin's daughter had thought first and kept her knees together, but young people aren't famous for that - hey, my mother was about Bristol Palin's age when she had me, and didn't get married to the guy, but family helped out, and here I am, quite unable to damn a young girl for making a dumb mistake.

What's your excuse?

Rove and Real are the sort of pinch-faced Pecksniffs that one dreads having as neighbours or even sitting next to on a long bus trip.

Who, aside from her family, has the right to give a flying F if Palin's daughter is pregnant? It's 2008 folks. We don't brand womens' foreheads any more. If Palin performs as well as Veep as she has in the Governor's chair, I doubt that the average citizen will care if Bristol has a litter.

Speaking of living in the 21st century, women are now free to hold down responsible, executive positions and to make highly personal decisions about their family arrangements without having to justify themselves to busybody jerks.

(For the record, Zog is of the male persuasion and old enough to remember the days when a working wife was considered to be a family disgrace.)

"uterus politics"

You should copyright that one, Kate.

Rick

I'll make the assumption that you're reasonably intelligent and assume your comment that I'm 'damning' the girl for her pregnancy is a conscious misrepresentation rather than a display of your denseness.

I couldn't care less that young Palin is pregnant. It is relevant only insofar that her mother would deny sex education and information about birth control to young woman while preaching 'abstinence only' to them.

It is relevant to point out that a politician speaks of enforcing rules and values on others that they are incapable of enforcing in their own household.

Whether or not conservatives live in a 'different era in history' or not, conservatives like Palin attempt to enforce rules from a different era in history on others - in their own households, though, not so much. Aside from the obvious hypocrisy, it almost makes one question the relevance of such rules and values, eh what?

Hey Zog

Speaking of Pecknsniffs, it's the woman all you guys are defending who's all "no sex education, only 'abstinenceonly' can be taught" -- she's the one who wants to interfere in people's lives with her anti-choice position. The plight ofher daughter wouldn't even be relevant if it didn't display the mother's hypocrisy.

As well, your little observation that it's the 21st century now and "woman can make highly personal decisons about family arrangements without having to justify themselves to busybody jerks" would be impressive were it not that Palin with her anti-choice views specifically does want to interfere with womens' right to make those decisions.

Cheers.

Thanks so terribly much for giving me the benefit of the doubt, real.

Thas was sarcasm, by the way. Hey - two can play this game, right?

You sound like an ad hominem liberal when you throw around this image of Palin as some sort of Puritan agent of state interference. You might want to do a bit of research (I know - that's hard), which might turn up this little tidbit from the 2006 Alaska gubernatorial race:

"In 2002, when she was running for lieutenant governor, Palin sent an e-mail to the anti-abortion Alaska Right to Life Board saying she was as 'pro-life as any candidate can be' and has 'adamantly supported our cause since I first understood, as a child, the atrocity of abortion.'"

"Palin said last month that no woman should have to choose between her career, education and her child. She is pro-contraception and said she's a member of a pro-woman but anti-abortion group called Feminists for Life"

http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/governor06/story/8049298p-7942233c.html

You throw around the term "anti-choice" like a brickbat, but you don't seem to understand the full meaning of the word choice. A parent raises a child according to rules that they consider wise, with the full knowledge of their own fallibility, and the likelihood that mistakes will be made. They choose how they'll raise their kids, and hopefully educate their children that decisions have consequences; if you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex. I don't have to define the word "abstain" for you, do I?

If you roll the dice and don't get the result you wanted - discounting the likelihood, slim as it might be, that Palin's daughter might have wanted to get pregnant; once again, choice - then you deal with the consequences. If you consider life to be sacred - as Palin and her family obviously do - you have to embrace the consequences of that choice.

Choices have consequences, and if Palin and her husband decided to raise their children with a preference for abstinence over contraception, that was their choice - a personal one whose consequences they were doubtless aware of, and I'm assuming they made their children aware of the same. Choices were made, consequencs followed, and as far as I can tell the Palins are dealing with them. The principled stand that Sarah Palin and her family have taken is that abortion is not an option. It's what I also believe, so I see no hypocrisy here.

Why would I have a problem with that? Why do you?

Real Said: It is relevant to point out that a politician speaks of enforcing rules and values on others that they are incapable of enforcing in their own household.

What rules and values are you talking about? Enforcing laws ... like murder and robbery sanctions ... or controlling the social lives of 17 year olds? What nutty vision do have of so-con households ... using terms like enforce? And since when, does any so-con "enforce" abstinence values of their 17 year old children? Chastity belts? Locking them up in their rooms? What planet are you on ... and what monstrous vision do you have floating around in your cranium of the average so-con household?

Are you really that daft?

Posted by Real "she's the one who wants to interfere in people's lives with her anti-choice position."

There it is, Real demands personal freedom so that he can be part of a socialist society where personal freedom's are subordinate to collective.

Incompatible. And these people are supposed to be bright?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hyuk hyuk gurgle snort.

Kate I am glad that this post came up.
As I stated in a reply to Bill all decisions have consequence's that will affect present and future implications.
Palin is pro-life with a job. Here discussion to represent the people in her family by working as a business owner, joining the PTA, rep on town council, running for LG of Alaska, rep Alaska people in the energy industry, fighting the crooks that were in place already, running for governor and wining, rep the people from Alaska as governor to the US and the rest of world. Then being asked to rep the republican party as "VP" and accepted the job.
One and many questions that the people are asking is how did she do it.
COMMON SENSE APPROUCH: Do people really think that she had no discussion with "FIRST DUDE" and "FAMILY" before any of this happened. I think this women would put her family values first and everything else second. If the young lady wanted an abortion it would have happened. It would have been discussed and run around the tree "WITH ALL INVOLVED PARTIES" but in the end she would have put their child's decision ahead of her beliefs.
This is where the left is still out of the loop. They want the decision left with the clinics and government running the system.
There are so many examples out there of where the system is falling apart from discipline, justice, immigration, politics, charities just to name some.
For years the MSM has had it so easy just to print the headlines with a few misleading words and getting away with it. Now people are just getting started to where this is going and now they holding the MSM misleading quotes to be responsible about objective.
I believe this presidential campaign is opening the eyes of the America ordinary people to actually open their eyes and ears and to see what is happening.
AND IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN CANADA WHEN PMSH CALLS THE ELECTION.
SARAH PALIN IS THE BEST THING THAT HAPPENED TO US POLITICS IN 28YRS.
NOTICE THE LEFT IN CANADA, MABEY YOU SHOULD PUT SOME DECENT ARGRUMENTS ON TABLE ABOUT THE POLITICAL AGENDA THAT YOU SUPPORT, INSTEAD OF SPEWING THE ONELINE COMMENT AND EXPECT THE REST OF US TO SUPPORT YOUR ACTIONS.
IN THE END "ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORD".

Define "so-con". I am still struggling with "neo-con" as it originally referred to a liberal who now has moved to the right.

The following is from the hate-mongers at the Daily Kos in response to the squemish among them that balk at wallowing in s**t.

NoodleyAppendage (1000+ posts) Sat Aug-30-08 10:26

122. What many here don’t understand. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH.

The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet:

Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

If people start to think that there might be something fishy with Palin’s last kid (if hers), then that’s FINE. One more doubt (whether tied to reality or not) is another hesitation at the ballot box.

GET WITH THE PROGRAM PEOPLE. The “rising above it” bullshit has served us so well in the past, hasn’t it?

If you have problems with the story, then STFU and get out of the way of Dems who are engaged in MODERN POLITICAL WARFARE. Go tend your garden or some other pedestrian task, because the “concern trolls” are not helping shape the message.

Rick,

A great post at 9:09am. The word choice, like progressive and liberal, has been co-opted by those on the left to mean precisely the opposite of their real intent.

In particular, I liked the way you have tried to outline to real (sic) the connection between choices and consequences. Unfortunately people like real will not make the connection, they are still too busy looking for more rights as long as they don't come with any responsibilities.

You can try and teach your children as much as you want about abstinence, drugs etc. but the CHOICE ultimately remains theirs.

DBH, the KOS thing you cited there reminds me of the strategy of the Big Lie invented by Josef Goebbels, Hitler's propagandist.

And the comment by "Noodley Appendage" is evidence that Leftists/progressives/liberals do indeed conspire to spread malicious, hurtful, hateful falsehoods about their political/ideological counterparts as a means to win power by cheating, by being unethical and immoral. This is the nature of the Leftist/liberal/progressive. Once in a while they'll expose the whole strategy/plot, unable to bite their tongue, needing to brag, to show off. Loose lips, ships, you know. They're that nasty and undisciplined. This is how they transform the perceptions of the population- by relentlessly inundating them with deliberate lies over and over again, harnessing the power of the mainstream media, most members of which share their ideology and lack of conscience/ethics/morality... It's a form of hypnotic suggestion that affects the subconscious.

Leftists/liberals/progressives are unethical and immoral and will do pretty much anything to win. They have no conscience, are usually atheist and believe that their selfish ends justify any means whatsoever.

This is why we cannot ever trust/believe a leftist/liberal/progressive, particularly the spin doctors and politicians amongst them. Then there's the leftists who dominate the mainstream media... can't trust them, either.

Hey Rick

My sarcasm was in response to your deliberate misrepresentation of my view by saying I "damn" the young Palin for her unwed pregnancy. I'll leave aside your calling me a 'prig' in your first post directed at me, as well as the slights contained in your last post. I'm used to the fact that your ilk can't discuss an issue without trash talking your opponent. Guess you think it makes your argument (and you?) look stronger.

Another characteristic I've noted in your ilk is the habit of constantly opening up false arguments to divert attention from the fact that you can't defend your central argument. Your new straw man is to claim that I have a problem with young Palin not aborting her child.

I don't; I don't have a problem with anything she does. I don't care.

However, I believe it's relevant to point out that her mother would ban all explicit sex education for young women of her daughter's age and insist on abstinence teaching ONLY. It's relevant to point out that the philosophy she would impose on others failed completely in her own household.

The 'principled stand' the Palins are taking (way to spin this into a 'positive', Rick!) that abortion is "not an option", which is so admired by you, would not be possible in the America Palin would seek to create - because the State would make that decision for them. It is odd that you praise their moral fibre (for not aborting a baby? - low bar!), while you defend their worldview which states that all such moral decisions should be made by the State.

The term 'anti-choice' may be used as a brickbat but your term 'pro-life' has pretty much lost all meaning since you and the others here signed on to blow innocent Iraqi babies to pieces based on obviously flimsy evidence simply because it was proffered by the guy "on your side". Not much concern for innocent life there, was there?

But the real main argument, which you scurry around trying to avoid with all your diversions is this: a woman who would deny young women sex education, who would enforce abstinence only education on them, and then deny them choices in their own health and pregancy ... that same woman's daughter is in the very dilemma that 'abstinence only' education is supposed to prevent.

Hey, if someone's seeking to impose their own morality on others, how 'bout they practise it in their own household? Maybe they can even provide us with a display of how it works, since they've decided how good it is for everyone else. That's the point. Words are fine, but actions are nice too. Sometimes you have to walk the walk, and that hasn't happened here.

Also: Sarah must really think the country's in dire need of her unique skills, since she decided to subject her daughter to intense worldwide scrutiny at this crisis moment in her young life. Thanks, Mom!

"Good little lemmings in lockstep!"

I would rather be in lockstep defending a woman's honor from scurilous attacks than be in lockstep attacking a woman's honor because I want to win an election.

Sexual harassment of the help in the governor's mansion and the WH is "personal" and "nobody's business" but a woman's own choices she makes about her own body? Down's syndrome risk increases greatly for women like Palin who have children late in life. It is a genetic abnormality. No amount of bad prenatal car is going to alter a child's genetic makeup. I can't believe I even have to say this. What a piece of crap you are, really.

"since she decided to subject her daughter to intense worldwide scrutiny at this crisis moment in her young life. Thanks, Mom! "

Maybe her error in judgement was underestimating how many scumbags there are on the left who have extended the politics of personal destruction to the whole family of a candidate?

Stupid, ignorant trash talk, Real. You can feel the anger and the spitting all the way over here. Scrutiny, the family can take. Trash from you social neanderthals is what they're getting.

Have you even read what she said about sex-ed?: "The explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support," she wrote in a 2006 questionnaire distributed among gubernatorial candidates.

Now, Real, in your rush to be a complete idiot, do you actually know what she's talking about? Explicit sex-ed programs are a new approach that is embroiled in controversy all over the States. Its not sex-ed as most people think of it. Its a field-trip hands-on type of program that a LOT of American school systems are not comfortable with. Neither is she. Big deal. If a local school wants to do it, they'll have to pay for it themselves. Big deal.

Some reason why leftist parents (all one of them) can't teach their own kids about sex, or does the school system have to teach them too? What a knob.

"The 'principled stand' the Palins are taking (way to spin this into a 'positive', Rick!) that abortion is "not an option", which is so admired by you, would not be possible in the America Palin would seek to create - because the State would make that decision for them. It is odd that you praise their moral fibre (for not aborting a baby? - low bar!), while you defend their worldview which states that all such moral decisions should be made by the State."

Wow. Amazing. A more total case of poor reading comprehension I have never seen. I can't even contemplate responding to you, real, because it's obvious you can't even parse out the meaning of words in sequential order. I'd love to find out just how, precisely, anything I've written translated into that complete farrago of nonsense.

Hey Rick, sure:

I'm presuming you support and agree with Palin, yes? You're certainly using a lot of energy to defend her.

Palin is against abortion under any circumstance. If it were up to her, Roe vs. Wade would be overturned.

Ergo, if her worldview were enacted, there would be no choice, no legal choice, a young pregnant woman would have but to bring her pregnancy to term. The State would have made that choice for her, at Palin's - and your - say-so.

I was merely noting that it was ironic that the choice the Palin's made, that you so admire, would have been impossible in the state Palin would seek to create.

Anything else?

There's no 'stupid ignorant trash talking', Skip. I'm merely pointing out how the actions of Palin and her family differ from the ideals she would preach to the rest of us - the same way that the Right has noticed Al Gore's mile-long house as he's preached about global warming, or Edward's 600 dollar haircut as he preached about poverty.

Yes, these actions are important in what they tell us about the candidates' sincerty, left or right. And the fact is that the McCain campaign made the story of Palin's Down syndrome child into a major part of her image - it was a selling point. In using Palin's family - and the abortion issue - as a positive for the campaign they have laid themselves open to it also being a negative.

Palin is an advocate of abstinence only education. As far as your trash-talking personal insults go, I'll say the same as I did to McGinnis: they really don't make your argument stronger. They only make you look juvenile.

Real, you're not worth the time.

Oh and Rick, Skip?

Word is that Palin used her line item veto as governor to slash funding for a shelter where new teen moms - who have no place to go - could live.

Gosh, that isn't very supportive for those teen-age girls who decide not to abort their pregnancies is it? She's really not honouring their 'principled stand', is she, Rick? Almost like she's one of those anti-choice people who insist on no abortion under any cirucmstance but as for the inevitable result of such a policy - well, you're on your own, kid! What Christianity!

Rick? Skip? Where'd y'all go?

Real, you are hopelessly clueless.

Real said: "Word is that Palin used her line item veto as governor to slash funding for a shelter where new teen moms - who have no place to go - could live."

As one observer who actually checked it out says:

"...if you think expanding a program by $3.9 million instead of $5 million counts as cutting funds, you’re qualified to work for one of America’s most esteemed newspapers."

[hint] the paper in question would be...WaPo!

Really, if you want to play in the world of the big dogs, at least take the time to learn which end you sniff.

Real, since you are digitally challenged, here is the real story (note, not from WaPo):

"The answer is that Covenant House is expanding. The plans are described in the 2009 Alaska capital budget proposal…

State funding will assist Covenant House to relocate, and construct a new Crisis Center for Covenant House in downtown Anchorage.

$22 million is needed to complete the expansion. Covenant House asked the Alaska legislature to provide $10 million, the legislature answered with $5 million in the 2009 budget. Governor Palin cut the figure back to $3.9 million -- for this year. This likely doesn't stop the expansion; Covenant House will either have to get more from the state in a future year and/or increase the amount from private donations to make it happen. But no existing program that helps teenage mothers or the children of teenage mothers has been affected by this budget decision, and calling a one-time infusion of $3.9 million added by the state on top of normal operating expenses a "cut" only makes sense if you can't do math, if you don't understand the difference between a capital outlay and an operating outlay, or if you hate Republicans."

The internet is your friend (Andrew Sullivan is not, now go away and learn how to use it. This thread is done.

No matter how you slice it, Skip, Palin cut funding for the expansion of a centre that helps young unmarried mothers. The legislature was willing to offer the money - she cut it back. It obviously isn't a priority for her.

Now according to the McCain campaign her anti-choice stance is a BIG priority for her. That's the reason they made so much of her having a Downs syndrome baby. Her anti-choice stance is so radical that she has declared she wouldn't allow her daughters to have abortions even if they were raped.

But actually helping to care for young mothers and their babies after they've chosen the 'principled stance' of having their babies? Well, not much of a priority at all.