Cripes, that's nothing. Do you think Aretha Franklin could have made it in today's music industry? They take the best looking kids they can find, teach 'em to sing as best they can, and if they are tone deaf, they use pitch correction.

Looks are everything in American Entertainment, with the exception of "clowns" like Adam Sandler and Will Ferrell, who are allowed to actually look like somebody you might meet on the street.

Before this moves into a pure emotional Bash China day, I think it's important to differentiate between a society focused around a group identity and one focused around the individual identity. It's not a trivial difference.

China is a very old civilization and for almost its entirety, your identity, as an individual, was only as a member of a group. Therefore, if one person sang and one person presented, there was no practial existential difference. You were both an integral, organic part of ONE entity; the group. You can see this acknowledgement in the words of the little girl who sang but didn't appear visually.

Individualism is an existential mode that is only about 500 years old, and is specific to the West, for demographic and economic reasons that I won't go into here. Its focus is on the existential, finite reality of one unit: the individual.

Remember, the group existential reality incorporates all those individual units into its organic nature. Each 'unit' in the organic group can't stand on its own; each is part of the whole.

So, the Chinese girl singing and the Chinese girl visually performing are, to the Chinese perspective, an integral part of that whole and single organic reality - the group. They'd be baffled by the West's reaction of shock that the units aren't differentiated.

China, particularly over the last two decades, is moving out of the group organic reality; its individuals are becoming 'existential' each on their own. They are doing the unthinkable in a group; they are competing with each other and with other 'units' in other groups. You can see the results in the Olympics.

But I doubt if China will, or should, forget its over 5,000 years of existential history - that notion of the group as an organic whole. I'd guess they will move to some kind of balance between the two..

A storm in a teacup, albeit characteristic of this ruthless regime.

There are more important things to worry about, such as Georgia or the Falun Gong persecution.

looks are everything!

someone better tell Keith Richards.

I'm less bothered by the lip syncing than I am with China blatantly flouting the age rules for women’s gymnastics. The kids are supposed to be a minimum 16 years of age but the Chinese girls look like they’re 12 and 13.

And Tim is right: looks, not talent, are paramount in today’s entertainment biz, which is why we’re inundated with so much soulless pap.

Togo is now ahead of Canada in the medal standings. But we are a winter sports nation and can’t be expected to win a bronze in white water kayaking as did the African nation. Nope, no opportunities in Canada for white water kayaking.

While I completely agree with your comments to maz2 in the reader's tips thread ET, wrt to the post above? Two words come to mind. The first one begins with B the second with S.

Keith Richards made it a long time ago, before music videos. While I can't seem to judge these things, more than one female aquaintance, one of them black too, tells me that Mick Jagger is "very hot", in a manly way.

ET, what a load of collectivist claptrap. Human beings are individuals. There is no such thing as a collective identity. That is the lie that 90 years of socialist communist doctrine would have you believe.

Individuals have always existed, societies are made of collections of individuals that cooperate in their own rational self-interest.

It is not an "organic reality" people are not plants nor are the Chinese people some sort of technologically deficient form of Star Trek's Borg collective.

I can't even believe that someone could defend this blatant communist propaganda.

What did Goebbels say about the truth? It's what we tell them?

Here's a line up so far...

Games sold out - well not really. The officials just gave away enough tickets that there's a shortage available to the paying public leaving empty seats in the venues. (the committee is probably recruiting bodies to fill the empty seats as we speak)

Blue Sky Days - The sky is whatever colour we tell you it is!

"Yes she is a very good singer" (or sorry lip syncher)!

These will be the best games ever!

Ticket fraud, $50 million of fake tickets sold. Can we say WTH didn't they have tighter controls on ticket sales (or did they even want tighter controls?)

"We will improve our human rights record" Pffft, yeah sure.

"You will have unfettered access to the internet" see above!

"We will show the world how powerful we are now and they will have to respect us" (didn't someone say something similiar in 1936?)

All I've seen so far is a corrupt, power hungry government passing a polluted grunge hole as a tourist destination.

Atlanticjim - I think you'll have to clarify your objections to my post about the difference between a society that defines its individual members as inseparable 'parts of a group' versus one that sees those individuals as separate entities.

I mean that post - and if you've studied social structure over the years, you'll know that in some societies, the individual is not 'exisentially isolate' or real; they only exist as part of the whole.

Indeed, in these societies, competition and individualism are denigrated and considered completely unacceptable. Parents will have all kinds of tactics to reduce individualism as the children mature.

So, the perspective that one member of the group is visible, and another member of the group is heard - is entirely acceptable to a society which views the individual not as an existential isolate reality but only as an organic bit part of a larger organic reality.

I suggest that you do a bit of reading in anthropology.

ET, kind of like that "tribe" thing eh.

China has been involved with the Olympics for a long time now, they know full well what is considered right, fair, honest, and ethical but still do what they want to.(Sort of like the MSM.) The joys of being a billion plus country. Kind of like getting them to play Kyoto... ain't goin to happen.

I gotta agree with you ET well stated.

If the Rolling Stones were young rockers trying to get a name for themselves today they wouldnt get a chance.
This is no slight on their talent as their looks would be the deciding factor.

ET and right of center, you're both relying on the OLD model of the entertainment industry works. There's the "indy band" factor now thanks to the 'net. Maybe you've heard of it?

ET wrote, "Individualism is an existential mode that is only about 500 years old, and is specific to the West, for demographic and economic reasons that I won't go into here. Its focus is on the existential, finite reality of one unit: the individual."

ET, I know you're an atheist: fair enough. But don't you think the Judeo-Christian dispensation had SOMETHING to do with this? After all, "the West" 500 years ago was Christendom. With due respect, you appear to have a real blind spot where Christianity's concerned. How about giving credit where credit is due?

Also, I agree with Texas Canuck: the Chinese know what's expected but just don't care about following the rules: just like the power hungry Liberals, who broke all the rules and thumbed their noses at anyone they wanted to when in power—and still do—all the time. I’m confused about how this is not OK when the Liberals do it, but quite OK when the Chinese do. I’m appalled by this kind of cheating on China’s part. It’s holding up a mirror to what Canada’s becoming: all style and no substance. (Too many governmental, educational, judicial, etc, policies and our HRCs are based on this Neverland fantasy: favoured groups get makeovers that bear no relation to the reality of their beliefs and actions, while the reality and rights of their opponents are stuffed under an “invisibility cloak”.)

China’s transgressions are despicable, and especially scary, now that our once free country is on the fast track to emulating their dirty tricks. I don’t think China should be excused: in fact, I think its skulduggery should be an object lesson for all of us in Canada: “Turn back!”

ET said: "Before this moves into a pure emotional Bash China day, I think it's important to differentiate between a society focused around a group identity and one focused around the individual identity. It's not a trivial difference."

YES! This is exactly true of Chinese culture. Now the next question which arises, is this a Good Thing (TM) or is it something we should work really hard at changing? As if our lives depended on it kinda hard.

Multiculturalism holds that all these things are "relative" and all cultures are equally "valid", but this lip synching business is a scandal precisely because it is the antithesis of the Olympian spirit.

Does anybody care about the American swimmer's looks? Nope, because he's got a fist full of medals. He could look like a warthog and still be the toast of the games. This little girl sings like a lark, the sportsmanlike thing to do is put her on TV. Nobody gives a crap about her less-than-movie-star appearance, because she's got the pipes.

Did they do that? NO they bloody well did not, which means they -do-not-understand- the point of even having the games in the first place, and don't give a rip about it anyway.

The fact that the International Olympic Committee executive director is willing to shill for the Polit Bureau indicates that he doesn't care a damn about sportsmanship either. That's been my point about this whole Olympic movement from the start, and this Beijing Games in particular.

Its Munich 1936 redux, and we all know how that turned out. Tigers do not change their stripes.

Toooo funny Kate!

No, phantom - multiculturalism is NOT the same as basing a society around 'the group as an organic whole'. Indeed, multiculturalism rejects the organic whole. Instead, it splits the population up into 'blocs', defined by identifiable characteristics - such as religion, ethnic origin, language. These separate 'blocs' are groups in themselves but they certainly aren't part of the whole.

Then, you ask if 'it's a good or bad thing'. That can't be answered. In ancient times, when there was no need for rapid change but there was instead a need for societal support of all (sharing, collaboration) then the idea of the organic group was 'good'.

In the West, the population explosion which eclipsed their economic capacity to sustain that population, required change - and that requires individual dissent and divergence into new technologies. So, the constraining pressure of the group against 'free though' and debate and dissent..had to be rejected.

You simply don't understand the group perspective, which doesn't see the individual as existential by themselves but only as existing within the group. And again - this has absolutely nothing to do with communism.

Heck, I used to give my students an outline of a fun story about this very difference between the focus on the group and the focus on the individual -which took place among the San people (hunters and gatherers) in the Kalahari. These people focus on the group and constrain, restrain and mock and denigrate any individualism. It's important to do this is a group-based structure.

zip - I suggest that you read a few books on anthropology; then, you'd understand that the notion of the collectivist or group identity is basic and has been basic, to human societal structure for thousands of years. It isn't 'communist'; it's the ancient mode of societal organization. The idea of the 'individual' as a unique and self-referential existence is recent - the humanist idea emerging from the 15th, 16th c in the West - due to population and economic requirements.

the bear - I haven't the slightest idea of the model about the entertainment industry. I'm working from a knowledge of anthropological societal organization. The rejection of individualism and the concept of the group as an organic whole is a basic societal mode; it was extremely functional because individual competition would have reduced these societies to internal strife and ruin.

lookout - the emergence of the supremacy of the individual within societal organization in the West had nothing to do with any religion. Religion, after all, is a superstructural expression of a deeper reality- the reality of material existence. The emergence of the individual was due to population pressures on the economy.

And, both you and Texas Canuck misunderstand the situation. There are no rules in the Olympics that state that the organizing society's opening ceremonies must be carried out by individuals and not by the whole society. For someone in a society where the individual is an integral part of a group - whether you sing or are viewed - is totally irrelevant. What matters is the whole result of the group effect. Therefore, to these little girls, being part of the whole, is the issue. Not our western individualism.

Munich? Nonsense.

ET, I'm no theologian, but neither are you. The worth of the individual is central to the tenets of both Judaism and Christianity. Your contention that the importance of the individual in Christendom—one of its defining features, I believe—has nothing to do with Christianity is very hard to swallow. I don't!

You also say, "There are no rules in the Olympics that state that the organizing society's opening ceremonies must be carried out by individuals and not by the whole society." Who ever suggested any such thing?

However, there is such a thing as natural law: you know, that there is a right and a wrong. Although I think rejecting a fine little singer because of her looks is unkind, that's not the worst of it. The fact that the Chinese tried to hoodwink the watching world (as usual) by not telling about this charade is the greater transgression. How can one trust the Chinese or the crooked Olympic organizers when they readily collude in style over substance? (Apparently, such behaviour is frowned on in the actual competitions. One rule for competitors, another for the organizers? You see nothing wrong with that?)

I know it's hard to change your mind, ET, but I think you're the one missing the point here. Again, why is it not OK for the Liberals to dissemble and cheat (we altogether agree on that), but it's OK for China and the Olympic organizers to? (E.g., Would you buy a used car from a Liberal or a Chinese or Olympic Committee official?)

Don't lose sight of the real issue here - that China is not what it appears to be, and it will do anything and go to any lengths to maintain the illusion it is presenting to the world.

The issue is not that someone lip-synced. (A common enough occurance.) The issue is that the government and its state controlled press LIED about someone lip syncing. They lied to maintain their carefully crafted illusion. Now apparently, this issue is blacked out in the Chinese media.

Yes it is, a "tempest in a teapot". But if it is so trivial, why bother lying about it? That they felt they should deceive on such a trivial matter, says a lot about how a totalitarian government sees its relationship with its people. The people are essentially the state's property, its servants, to help it maintain the illusions so important to its power structure.

So, now we find out that the singing star can't sing.

And that the fireworks telecast was graphically enhanced.

And that the gymnasts' birth certificates have been changed to make them older.

And that many of the sports fans filling the venues are really "volunteers" there to make the arena look full for television.

And that the "mist" is really lung-scorching pollution.

Are we supposed to be surprised?

Throughout this Olympics, the list of illusion and fakery on the part of the Chinese government will grow.

But the biggest illusion of all is the Beijing Games themselves. This spectacle is a lying deceit, artfully crafted to create the illusion of peace, progress and freedom. How cunning the communists, and how cynical and corrupt the I.O.C. that a symbol long treasured by the civilized world is the very banner used to blindfold the world against the ugly truth. They've done a good job too - on T.V. it almost looks like the "Real Olympics".

But we are only fools if we believe it.

Right on Phantom.
The Chinese and the International Olympic Committee have a long way to go to "get" love and compassion for their fellow man.
They pretend they do, like having Yao Ming hold a nine year old like a baby for the cameras during the opening ceremonies; it was window dressing.

Remember what that little hero that Yao was holding replied, when asked why he went back into the crumbling school to save his classmates.
He didn't say "They were my friends" or "They needed help", he said "I am the Class monitor and it was my job".
Yau was truly crying and it was heartening, but how contrived was it given the 100,s or thousands beaten by the state and thrown out into the street because they wouldn't turn over their property so that the state could demolish it and build their Olympic roads and official rose gardens.

Look at Eddie the Eagle and The Jamaican Bobsled Team.
These were the stories that attracted people; not 300 drummers beating out Borg-like war tunes in perfect syncronization.

China's communist government and to a lesser degree the International Olympic Committee are directly opposed to everything the Olympics should stand for; fraternity, individual excellence, and sportsmanship.

Let the Greeks have the Olympics back, and take it away from the corrupt little clique of elitist graft gobblers (International Olympic Committee) that own it now.

What drives innovation in a collectivist society? An innovator is one who steps outside the norm. All the societal forces act to herd the individuals into pen of acceptability and normality.

What is China's lastest innovation? Are we going to hear about sphagetti and paper and gunpowder forever? It's getting a little stale, and does not convince me of the superiority of the current collectivist state.

Innovation is what is required to bring alternative energy sources into widespread adoption and economic feasibility. I'm surprised that the left has not seen the (wind-powered) light and recognized that collectivist societies have not demonstrated industrial or technical innovation. Rather, their innovation has been in thought-control, behavioral control, media control, punishment and re-education, and forced labor. Innovation will leap from the hearts and minds of the altrusitic People's Scientists, in good time. Sure.

I await the report from the "People's Committee On the Great Leap Forward To Replace Oil As An Energy Source", with important input from organized labor. Yes, it can be a report printed on paper - that wonderful centuries-old innovation that provides proof positive that current Chinese Communism is The Superior societal organization of all time.

In communism, truth isn't what happens, it what the bosses says happened.

The cute girl, the one who looks like the ideal propaganda image, sang the song.

Live with it.

Can't say that I expected anything different from the Chinese State.

It's a nation of sheep ruled by bureaucrats and the rulers are used to getting what they want.

The real failing in this 2008 Olympics is the IOC .. the venal Eurotrash that agreed to be bought off by the Chinese who wish to create a new public image for themselves.

China in NO WAY represents ANY of the supposed ideals of Olympic competition ... but who should be surprised that the supposed guardians of that tradition sold out?

The IOC lost their credibility long before this.

China tries to "win" any way it can.

Mean while, Canada tries to .. loose ?

" We cannot do well at the Summer Games because we are a northern country."
"Our government doesn't care enough."
"We don't want to win “too much” and celebrate “too much” and venerate “too Much” and hero worship “too much”. That would risk turning us into a nation of gloating Americans." Charles Adler

http://cjobam.corusradionetwork.com/emmis/BlogAdler.cfm?bid=25292

How long before we learn that the chinese divers were really just cardboard cutouts. As for cheating on the girls ages, think back to the russian female gymnaists of years ago, who were given drugs to keep them from developing. As someone posted a few days ago, soon the athelets will be carrying flags of their labs instead of their country. At least we can be sure that our team is clean, as they have not won any medals. And why can't all those that bought phoney tickets, and are there, get in to fill the seats.
Hope BC is watching this closely.

"There's the "indy band" factor now thanks to the 'net. Maybe you've heard of it?"-Bear

Yah I have heard of it, does it mean success?....no!

Perhaps you know that many bands that rely on the net for exposure generally fail.

ET:

I have a huge amount of repect for your opinions, but I have to disagree on the defense for the chicom's action on this one.

This has zero to do with the Individual versus the whole and everything to do with a totalitarian regime's attempt to score a propaganda point. Just as in '36 and '80 these attepmts in their aggregate revealed the evil underpinnings of the leadership to all those who were watching. Let's hope that like '80 this will play an important role in weakening and ultimately destroying the regime.

R or C, just as many bands fail using your brick & mortar approach & don't make any money either. The rise of the indy approach is a sign of a broken business model. You're holding on to the past.

ET said: "You simply don't understand the group perspective, which doesn't see the individual as existential by themselves but only as existing within the group. And again - this has absolutely nothing to do with communism."

ET ma'am, I don't mean to be annoying (to you, at any rate :), and on the off chance that you are Chinese or related to someone who is, I'm not taking shots at Chinese culture just for the hell of it. As I've said previously, there's lots of Chinese cultural traits which are admirable, and I spent a loooong time living with Chinese people and learning Chinese martial arts.

So, I feel safe in saying I do understand the group perspective as it is used in China. I lived under it for several years, so I know it from the inside as a White boy trying to fit in to it.

I know it so well that I can say with some confidence it is entirely incompatible with Western civilization. (Not civilization generally, just Western civilization.) Also on a personal level I don't -like- it, and I fight against it whenever I have it inflicted upon me by whatever group/org/company/government thinks they can get away with it.

My objection is I don't like doing the work and having somebody else get the good of it.

In this case of our Milli Vanilli lip sync scandal, we have two little girls being used and abused supposedly for the "good of the nation". Really its for the good of whatever Politbureau pr1ck made the decision. One little girl is told she is good enough to sing but too ugly for TV, the other is pretty enough for TV but not good enough to sing. Nice, eh? Real Olympic Spirit.

Now the other thing you said was this: "There are no rules in the Olympics that state that the organizing society's opening ceremonies must be carried out by individuals and not by the whole society."

That's true. It is supposed to be understood that the Olympics is about Sportsmanship and Fair Play, two quintessentially Western concepts which are completely -lacking- in this Beijing circus. They could use some education in these two concepts, and so could the IOC.

Fair play would dictate you let the ugly girl be on TV, or let the pretty girl sing, because lip-syncing is -lying-. aka cheating.

Cheating is another Western concept these collectivist types have a problem understanding.

So hopefully you get what I'm driving at here. If we want to live in a nice, peaceful, productive world where people get along and stuff, behavior like that of the Chinese government or Mr. Putin's current outrage has to be seen, by the -people- in those countries and not just their leaders, as wrong, evil and not to be accommodated in the slightest way. Its a philosophical poison which kills people by the millions, and must be eradicated.

Communism is merely one flavor of it, fascism another.

Lookout - I didn't say that the importance of the individual in Christendom has nothing to do with Christianity. I said that the importance of the individual in the West has nothing to do with Christianity.

The rise of the individual as a political, economic and societal power began in the 12th, 13th c...and many people who rejected the authority of the church, and claimed that they had, as individuals, the capacity to think, were branded as heretics by the church.

The rise of the individual came because the West was being destroyed by the results of overpopulation and desperately needed new technology in order to produce more food and deal with disease, etc.

No, lookout, you view the Chinese behaviour as 'hoodwinking' and your 'natural law' of right and wrong is different from a group-based societal right and wrong. The Chinese group, who all work together rather than as individuals, don't see this action as hoodwinking. That would only be valid within YOUR perspective, which is focused on the individual and not the group.

As for your comparison with the Liberals - that's an invalid comparison. The Liberal Party is operating in an individualist societal system, and when their individuals lie and cheat - that's wrong. You simply don't get it; the Chinese presentation of the song was not a lie; it was a group-based presentation. You simply don't understand how a collectivist societal system operates. No-one takes individual 'recognition' in such a system. All share and collaborate.

Exactly, shaken. In a group-based or collectivist society, the agenda is stability. No change. That's been the norm for most of the hundred thousand years of human societal organization on this planet.

Only individuals think. Groups don't think. So, when a society requires adaptive technology, it has to enable individualism, which means - dissent, debate, disagreement.

China has been collectivist since the times of Chuang tze, Mo tze, Kung Fu tze..but they are rapidly changing. Now, they have moved into capitalism, which is an individual-based economic mode - and are more and more, focused around the individual. I doubt that they will abandon their old infrastructure that soon - if ever. It's over 5,000 years old.

As for science, Chinese researchers have moved into top areas in physics, chemistry and biology. That's in the last two decades. And it's going to increase as their competitive focus expands.

And no, OMMAG, the Chinese aren't a nation of sheep led by bureaucrats. I'd define Canada in that manner, however.
And yes, the Chinese do want to create a new image of themselves -as participants in the modern world. What they need from the West is an acknowledgement that they can be such - and this will help them modernize and democratize. The fact that you continue to sneer at them and view them as unacceptable - that's your problem.

In a country whose people are not so easily offended and that is not burdened with political correctness .... a person who sings like a bird, but looks like a toad, can be represented by someone who looks like a bird but sings like a toad and it's okay.

No hurt feelings, no CHRC complaint. Just let's get on with the show.

The number of billions spent in the west each year on all sorts of things to merely make us look better means that appearances are important.

Let's not be so critical. China is just putting on it's best "face".

Just because the CBC hires ugly toads doesn't mean everyone must. CTV is no beauty contest either. However, FOX NEWS .. whew! Now they know where to find very smart and very hot babes. And why not? I prefer looking at Laurie Dhue than Lisa La Phlegm. How about you?

ET

I agree with much of what you posted here (I have not read the whole thread), but have to point out to you that you fail to comprehent that you are "talking" above many of the posters here on the social vs. individual construct within sociaties:-))))))

that little girl had vampire teeth...so ugly...and their choice was to opt with the holly wood version of what to do...they could have given her fake teeth...but in their eyes the she didn't fit the image...SO WHAT... they dubbed her voice which was magnificant...beautiful face...fit the voice...
If they decided not to tell..who cares...this was done many times in the film industry and in the entertainment industry...over and over...in large concerts...THEY DON'T TELL EITHER.
Yes, talk about all the corruption of the games...as if atheletes from other countries don't cheat...never have...never will...Gosh I wonder why all the drug testing...
Pray that the Chinese do become a super power, now #3 in the world...because they will help in the defence of islamification which is on the move and will mushroom in the future...
The Chinese are progressing and doing a great job of it...Mao was long ago...and they are in flux...still communist but with many freedoms and more and more emerging...
You can safely criticize them in Canada...and even somewhat when living there as I learned...
Try directing all the things you said about Chinese to the islamists, in other words speak out about those lunatics..and even in Canada you could find yourself beaten up by the islamist thugs.,..
Thank the stars the Chinese have no patience for islamists or theocratic bull...and that they are doing their best to enter the 21st century.

John V, nothing wrong with that perspective, but it proceeds from the assumption that the Olympics is a -show-. A spectacle in other words, with no meaning or purpose other than to be spectacular.

Which is indeed what these games are. That's the problem.

Phantom:

I think ET's points hold. You stated that it irks you when someone else gets credit for the work that you do, but ET has already stated that if your mindset is one of a group mentality, you'll have no problem letting someone else get the credit.

Lookout:
"ET, I'm no theologian, but neither are you."

So you're not any more qualified than him to say anything hmm? I can see your point about the individual, but you're looking at the modern church IMO. If you're looking at the church 500 years ago, there was absolutely no emphasis on the individual whatsoever. People didn't have bibles, and the only bibles that were around were in Latin. It was in fact illegal to translate the bible out of Latin.

Now, in a world where I'm sure very few people were literate, how many can we expect to also be literate in Latin as well? The idea of a "personal relationship" with God is a very new concept, starting with the reformation. Prior to that, the church was very closed and insular, and did not allow much free thought or individual expression whatsoever unless you elected to join the church and rise to join the "elite" amongst them.

As to natural law, I have my doubts. It seems far more plausible that "right" and "wrong" are merely evolutionary traits that developed as part of a need for social cohesion once the concept of communities became central to the human race.

As to your argument about the Liberals, that's just silly. Do you think Stephane Dion creates all his own policy? Hardly. He's the face of the party, just like that little girl who lip synced at the opening games was the face of the Olympics. The really talented people who weren't just a talking mouth piece, or a savvy politician are the ones creating policy for him to espouse. I would almost go so far as to claim that politician's are perfectly represented by that little girl who lip synced. They are presenters, just as this girl was, and they present either the views of their constituents, or they present the views of the economic or military advisers, hopefully with the interest to better the Canadian people.

Wikipedia: Potemkin villages were purportedly fake settlements erected at the direction of Russian minister Grigori Aleksandrovich Potemkin to fool Empress Catherine II during her visit to Crimea in 1787. According to this story, Potemkin, who led the Crimean military campaign, had hollow facades of villages constructed along the desolate banks of the Dnieper River in order to impress the monarch and her travel party with the value of her new conquests, thus enhancing his standing in the empress's eyes.

The Potemkin Village deception is a tactic of Communist regimes. It's virtually a Communist founding principal.

*
"et sombrely intones... if one person sang
and one person presented, there was
no practial existential difference."

uh, dave's not here, man.

*

So this action is like Olympic sports?

Only when the best-looking finalist is given the winner's medal and record and pushed up onto the podium.

What nonsense... But then maybe that is how sports is done in China

ET: "I didn't say that the importance of the individual in Christendom has nothing to do with Christianity." And I didn't imply that you did either.

You also say: "As for your comparison with the Liberals - that's an invalid comparison. The Liberal Party is operating in an individualist societal system, and when their individuals lie and cheat - that's wrong." (I can’t believe you said that!) The corollary is that what the Chinese are doing, because it fits their way of doing things, is not wrong.

What you posit here is crass relativism and some really bad theology, as in this kids' hymn, sung in the fifties: "You in your small corner and I in mine." How is that conducive to human rights and world harmony?

“We'll let you off lying and cheating because that's your way.” It's like the radical feminists, who overlook Bill Clinton's infidelities and exploitation of young women, as well as the atrocities against women in Muslim countries—or even under their own noses. This is hypocrisy and appeasement of the highest order.

By this fallacious reasoning, we’d have had to sit back and let the Nazis continue their atrocities: as fascists, they most certainly did not share the values of Magna Carta. Parents and teachers of the Whatever Generation would have to excuse their kids’ transgressions because they don’t share the same moral code. etc., etc. How would the world ever be able to change for the better if the best and better are only allowed to judge the worst people, organizations, and countries by their own—totally flawed—standards? BTW, that’s how multiculturalism, which you abhor, works. It isolates groups and allows them to do their own, at times, barbaric and cruel things—with government funds and protection.

No thanks.

Does China think we are so stupid that they can toss out two or four insignficant things to talk about and that we will forget about Tibet, the Chinese role in the ongoing genocide in Darfur and involuntary organ harvesting?

But will they respect us in the morning?

ET ... BAH to you... I sneer at the Chinese Bureaucrats ... the people can't help that they are sheep because outside of the relative few who have world experience they have NO other frame of reference.

It's Not a Problem of mine as you state ... it is however my response to the incessant BS that Sino apologists offer claiming that this dysfunctional sham is somehow more than just that.

Also you seem to be implying that I am responsible in some way for the sorry state of this country Canada. I'll admit that many of my boomer peers are ... I however have been questioning this degradation and arguing against acceptance and trying to support people who actually care about being better than a captive public to a socialist state agenda.

So to you pedantic ET ... BAH!

There are millions of people who do not support a seperate Tibet...It is a backward theocratic society...that degrades women...
but then the whole canadian society along with the rest of the western world has been foiled by the dali lama who has been wandering around for almost 50 years...pissed off at Mao...hey and so he should be...(Very Smart man with so many books and phd's)..He got kicked out of his country..which at the time was part of China...and a backward dirty tribal theocratic state where women and other low life men were slaves...
Does anyone ever really think about anything?
Not likely...
China is involved in trade...arms to the perpitrators of genocide...Gosh...let;s see how often have the U.S. done this...or European countries...the records are there for anyone who wants to look...
Not that I support giving weapons to lunatics...but all I'm saying is let's not make the Chinese out to be satanic...they are guilty of the same thing that many countries have done. duh

There are millions of people who do not support a seperate Tibet...It is a backward theocratic society...that degrades women...
but then the whole canadian society along with the rest of the western world has been foiled by the dali lama who has been wandering around for almost 50 years...pissed off at Mao...hey and so he should be...(Very Smart man with so many books and phd's)..He got kicked out of his country..which at the time was part of China...and a backward dirty tribal theocratic state where women and other low life men were slaves...
Does anyone ever really think about anything?
Not likely...
China is involved in trade...arms to the perpitrators of genocide...Gosh...let;s see how often have the U.S. done this...or European countries...the records are there for anyone who wants to look...
Not that I support giving weapons to lunatics...but all I'm saying is let's not make the Chinese out to be satanic...they are guilty of the same thing that many countries have done. duh

Tempest in a teacup. This sort of thing isn't uncommon in the Orient - just look at the Japanese teen-pop stars, where the person who sings and the person who apppears in the videos and on stage may be two different people. The opening ceremonies are about spectacle, and so long as that was provided, who cares? This isn't "Chinese Idol" here, where individual performance would indeed be paramount.

barejebus, I'm not saying ET is wrong. I understand what she said, and I understand the traditional Chinese collective mode of thought. I'm saying that collectivism is antithetical to my way of life. Group mentality, when imposed from above, creates misery. Since I don't like being miserable I've learned to fight it.

Many people mistake the concept of "team" for a collective mentality. A team is a group of individuals working together because they want to. A collective is a group of people stuck together whether they like it or not by societal forces they can't break.

The Olympics is supposed to be a celebration of the former. This Olympics is sadly an example of the latter.

Hence my objections.

The only issue for me is "faking" versus "reality". We are quite tolerant of the manipulations of the entertainment industry. It doesn't matter if the spaceship really exploded or if some clever person was able to generate the effects with computer graphics. We're willing to go along with the illusion because it's entertaining. However, some things should matter. It should make a difference whether the voice and the little girl are being presented as the same person when they're not. The fact that this seems "okay" to so many people bothers me. Are we going to start sending "attractive" standins now, to collect the medals? (He's a damn fine athlete but just too ugly to stand on the podium.) I think it won't be long that we'll be looking at genetically enhanced athletes created in a lab somewhere. At least then, we won't need to worry about drug-testing anymore.

ET is right about collectivism. That's the way it's been in China for thousands of years and this attitude is not likely to change any time soon. I, however, am appalled by the continued use of cultural relativism to excuse systems (such as collectivism) that produce inferior results. Western civilization is the richest and freest in history precisely because it upholds individual rights which produce superior results. The Chinese are beginning to understand this as millions of people are being pulled out of extreme poverty. We must support them in this endevour and reject ancient cultural practices that will hurt their society in the long run.

ET:
Individualism is not 500 years old. The Greeks, who viewed life as a zero-sum game, were ferociously competitive. Indeed, our obvious instinct for self-preservation testifies to an overwhelming biological bias in favor of individualism. Communitarian values are at best a veneer. That little girl and her parents may express all the correct sentiments, but I'd be astonished to find that they actually felt them.

.

The Phantom has it right.

If anyone needs to know what horrors collectivism leads to ... read anything by Ayn Rand.

.

Don't have the time to study the comments but here's a link to a recent piece supporting ET's thesis:

Op-Ed Columnist: Harmony and the Dream By DAVID BROOKS
China’s rise is an example of how the ideal of a harmonious collective may turn out to be as attractive as the ideal of the American Dream.

------------------
Brooks has been on a bit of a collectivist roll lately having recently penned a piece detailing five social issues which will require a massive ramp up of government power.

However ET you've had me wondering lately if -- given your apparent Chinophilism, as evidenced by many of your posts, including those which seemed to be un-sympathetic to Tibet and dismissive of the complaints of Falon Gong (sp?) -- you would have been a Russiaphile in the late 20s and 30s?

It did not take Cosmo long to get to the left wing relativist argument that he knows idiots buy and that he hopes the people one level above idiots will buy if he spouts it enough. You know the one, “well China may be involved in a genocide, but so is the United States. Rumour has it that Mao “offed” more people than Hitler and Staling combined. Around 32 million some scholars say. But certainly well more than 20 million. How could any honest person compare that to the wrongful deaths for which the US admittedly responsible?

Human rights? Cosmo, a person convicted of the serial rape of children has more human rights than anyone one other than high ranking communist officials in China. A few useful idiots went to live in Russia because for a lot of lefties being a commie bootlick in Russia beat working for a living in Canada or the US. After a while the gray communist life started to rub them worse than the abrasive toilet paper that they were given to wipe their brains.

More simply for those of you who carry NDP or Liberal party cards: why do you think it is that the US has to build walls to keep people out and China, Russia and your favorite sweetheart Cuba have to build walls to keep their people in?

Mugabe, Castro, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hugo Chavez also sold a superior society to the masses. It was a tough sell so they used lying and force. Since Tiananmen Square, force has been harder to apply, but their skills in lying and deception obviously remain intact.

Dion and the Libs can't use force so they are are left with lying and bribing. It is disgusting is that huge swathes of Ontario voters will buy what the Libs are selling. A Canadian society where no man or woman has the right to exist for his/her own sake. Where a citizens life and work does not belong to him/her but to a society that only the Libs can be trusted to create.

Meanwhile Conservatives have not killed off mindless social control programs like the HRC and Gun registry, and they continue to expand government spending to buy off Ontario and Quebec voters.

The voters in Canada want collectivism and the price we pay is to accept the same kind of lying and deception that the Chinese demonstrate.

If it wasn't so sad it would be funny.

"I prefer looking at Laurie Dhue than Lisa La Phlegm. How about you?"-John V

I am more of a Marcia Mcmillan from CTV Newsnet fan myself

"The state-run China Daily wrote that 'songbird' Lin was on the way to becoming a major star, and it quoted her father as saying his daughter had become an international singing sensation..."

ET, you wrote "The Chinese want to create an image of themselves as participants in the modern world. What they need from the West is an acknowledgement that they can be such..."

If China's government considers it perfectly reasonable to maintain stability through the use of propagandistic, utter fabrications followed up by excision of the truth, why should *we* take their lies and fraudulence at face value and then say "welcome to the modern world"?

If they want to join the modern world, wouldn't we be doing them a favour by pointing out to them that their use of pure centralized state propaganda -- active lying, with proscriptions against individuals who tell the truth -- on a vast, premeditated scale is anathema to the modern West?

At the point when they use such techniques in their effort to convince Westerners that they're the glorious nation they want their citizens to think they are, shouldn't we at least reject the validity of the message?

You could type out ten thousand pages of evidence that such centralized truth-control tactics are fundamental to their society, ET, and you can explain how in China individuals are fodder for the larger collectivist ambitions, and that it's simply the Chinese way, but such finely detailed, accurate description is not any kind of argument that their approach can comfortably co-exist with other nations in the modern developed world.

Should we take propaganda and lies for their intended purposes, or should we point out that we see such a false front for what it is?

I realize I'm coming late to the debate but . . . I have to agree with ET's basic point about the Chinese collective attitude.
As one married to a Chinese for several years, and a vitriolically anti-communist one at that, I can attest that there is this cultural tradition of subordinating the freedom of the individual to the welfare/success/image of the group. "Face" is still hugely important. It comes out in the oddest ways and explains generalized support for measures which we, westerners, would view as oppressive or churlish. So I don't think the little girl who sang behind the scenes is going to be as broken up as we think she should be.
Second, many of them look way younger than westerners at a given age. That's not to say that the Red Chinese wouldn't cheat to get under-aged athletes into the Olympics if it suited their purpose. I've no doubt they would. But equally, I wouldn't just assume that because they look younger than we'd expect that they necessarily are younger.

I'm not sure about ET, but I'm not using the cultural relativism argument as an excuse for their actions. Rather, it should be used as a lense offering a different perspective to explain those actions.

EyesWideShut:

"More simply for those of you who carry NDP or Liberal party cards: why do you think it is that the US has to build walls to keep people out and China, Russia and your favorite sweetheart Cuba have to build walls to keep their people in?"

Right, that's why they don't give their people passports, or let their students study abroad, or let people fly on planes....not. I do see your point of view during the cold war, Iron Curtain and all that, and I agree. Nowadays though? Not overly.

me no dhimmi - I think you misunderstand me. I am NOT saying that a collectivist society is an ideal infrastructure for the modern world. I am not supporting China's collectivism as the 'way to go in the future'.

In a world that requires rapid adaptation, constant innovation - such a world requires the unique perspective of individualism. The individual is isolate as a 'viewer' and 'experiencer' - and so, is more open to dissent, dififerent experiences and a different output. So, China will and is, most certainly moving more and more to promoting individualism. You'll see that in its competitive capitalism and its competitive nature in the Olympics -and in science.

However, I've been pointing out that the entire history of China has been based around the very deep philosophy that the individual is a part of a group. That's in the ancient philosophers, whom I mentioned above (Confucius, Chuang tze, Mo tze etc). If you are interested, my first university degree is in Chinese - and I've read those in the original. But in addition, a lot of my academic work has been on societal structures and I'm well aware of the difference between and history of the two types: the collective and the individual.

As Dr Dave points out, 'face' is extremely important, just as the 'stiff upper lip' was a characteristic of the British.

With regard to Tibet - my opinion is that I don't know enough; that the situation is far more complex than the simplistic binarism of Tibet alone or Tibet within China (and even the Dalai Lama says he doesn't want full separation; heh, sounds like Quebec). As for falun gong, I maintain that it's a cult. And no, Russia is quite different from China.

lookout - you totally fail to understand what it's like living as an integral member of a society that is structured as a collective. You insist that there is only one structure - and you are wrong. No, this isn't relativism for relativism posits that BOTH or ALL types of different structures can co-exist. No, they can't. Only one can exist in one time/space.

But, in different sizes of population, different types of economies, the collective OR the individual will be 'right'.

What you fail to understand is that a society structured around the collective subsumes the individual, and the individual accepts and WANTS this mode of existence. Again, this is NOT relativism, it is NOT multiculturalism.

Phantom - this collectivism isn't imposed 'from above' any more than 'individualism and competition' is 'imposed from above.

OMMAG - your 'arguments' are rather weak. Sneering or 'bah to you' isn't an argument. Plus, I suspect that you really don't know much about China.

EBD - First, don't mistake communism for the 5,000 year tradition of collectivism in China. Second, if you think that Canadians aren't 'brainwashed' into their own set of beliefs - I wonder where you've been. That includes our notions of ourselves as 'tolerant, kindly, peacekeepers' vs the Americans who are 'rogues, imperialists, capitalist thugs' and so on.

You define truth and lies without any understanding of the issues - eg, the two little girls who sang and who appeared, were both members of the same group and therefore, to the Chinese girls, they are both valid representatives of that group. The Western focus on the individual says that only ONE of the two can be a valid representative, and can only represent herself. Not the group. The people who live in a group mentality simply wouldn't understand your limited and what they would consider 'narrow' point of view.

Your insistence that we in the West never lie, never engage in propaganda - heh - all our years of Chretien, for example - were without lies or propaganda? I remember Chretien's answer to Mad Cow Disease; he ordered a beef dinner for everyone and had pictures of him eating. His reaction to SARS - was to have the taxpayer foot the bill for shipping his cabinet to Toronto for a meeting there - with lots of photos of happy, healthy cabinet ministers. His reaction to theft? The statement - 'what's a few million to save the country' (he meant the Liberal party..but..never mind the lie)..

Oh come on, ET. The state media arm lied about the identity, and imminent career, of the "singer". If, in the Chinese mind you know so well, the "two" are a *valid* representation of the group, why would the Chinese government lie about it? If such identity-swapping is considered perfectly valid in their culture, as you suggest, and is part of a long glorious tradition, why would the government hide it?

"a society structured around the collective subsumes the individual, and the individual accepts and WANTS this mode of existence"

That would be you Ontario.

barjebus
I did not say they (commies) don’t give a limited number of people passports, or let their students study abroad, or let people fly on planes." Even during the cold war Russia let a few people out. If they were ballet dancers with high public exposure they were fairly well guarded. If they were average schmucks with family members in Russia they had a certain degree of soft tissue leverage. If you want a true comparision between civil liberties in communist countries compared to civil liberties in the US or Canada please go to a communist country and give them the grief you know you could in an anti-government protest in Canada, the US, Great Britain, Australia or any other of the satanic countires of the west. [Please note that your out of Canada medical coverage does not cover beatings at such protests.]If you make it back we can pick up this thread.

ET, please stop putting words in my mouth, pulling out of a hat arguments I did not make, and twisting the arguments I did make entirely out of shape to suit your purposes. These are not the hallmarks of fair play.

1) I did NOT suggest that “ . . . that there is only one structure.”

2) I was NOT talking about relativism in relation to China: it was in relation to YOU and what I believe is your preposterous suggestion that actions can only be judged within the context of the moral code held by the perpetrators.

You’re the one who said, "As for your comparison with the Liberals - that's an invalid comparison. The Liberal Party is operating in an individualist societal system, and when their individuals lie and cheat - that's wrong." Read the corollary I provided.

3) I also perfectly understand that “a society structured around the collective subsumes the individual, and the individual accepts and WANTS this mode of existence”. Nowhere did I even hint that this isn’t true. (I might not like such a structure, but I did not deny its existence.)

4) You say, “ . . . you totally fail to understand what it's like living as an integral member of a society that is structured as a collective.” How would you know? I wasn’t discussing that.

I certainly understand that the Chinese live differently from us and have a different perspective (duh)—apparently, a perspective that routinely accepts lying and cheating and vast cover ups.

I suggested that just because “this is the way they do things” doesn’t make it OK, as you seemed to suggest. That was my thesis , ET., which you’ve chosen to completely overlook. (“Nice work if you can get it . . . ”)

5) When you say, “What you fail to understand is Again, this is NOT relativism, it is NOT multiculturalism”, you are speaking quite outside the context in which I used those words. I was NOT talking about China: check it out.

As you so easily tell people that they are “wrong” and “fail to understand” and that their arguments are “invalid”—a definite downer in many of your usually informative posts—I think you might consider others’ posts with more objectivity, e.g., by reading, processing accurately, and responding fairly to what they’re actually saying.

So why are people so surprised that this has happened in China's handling of the Games?

This is the same country that covered up the starvation of at least 30 million of its own people in the 1960s, due to the miscalculation by the Mao govt and its Great Leap Forward.

People and individuals and 'freedom' mean exactly nothing to totalitarian societies.

Hey if the totalitarian state says you are free then you are free, even if you do have to give all your grain to the govt sponsored enterprise and let them divvy it up.

No, wait that's Canada!

Aw damn, here I was just gonna start throwing sticks and stones at the dreaded Chinese commies and Canada's own beloved CWB buggers me up.

ET said: "Phantom - this collectivism isn't imposed 'from above' any more than 'individualism and competition' is 'imposed from above."

ET, I think we are arguing around each other's arguments. Of course its imposed, its a totalitarian state. Anybody with ideas of bucking the trend gets their head handed to them. You bet the singing kid's mum didn't complain, probably didn't even THINK of complaining. Do you complain to the Inquisition about the sanitation of their dungeons? Nyet!

Is this a good thing we should understand and tolerate? Or is it something we should resist and eradicate wherever we find it?

I'll leave you with this little thought. What do we remember from the 1936 Olympics? Hitler refusing to shake hands with Jesse Owens. What are we going to remember from the 2008 Olympics? Lip syncing. Unless they pull something really spectacularly heinous.

phantom - modern China doesn't operate the totalitarian way that you think it does.

There's a lot of investment from and to the West going on; there's a lot of collaborative scientific research going on - The China in your mind is 20-25 years ago.

Actually, China isn't totalitarian anymore; it's certainly one-party, but even its communism is dissolving, as capitalist businesses emerge, as private property develops.

So, your image that the parents didn't complain because they feared the state is suspect; they didn't complain because it never occurred to them there was anything to complain about.

And it's not up to 'us', to 'eradicate' it. We aren't the moral overseers of the world. And there is absolutely no comparison of China today with Hitler's Germany. Again, I suggest you don't know what modern China is all about.

lookout - my apologies if I failed to understand what you wrote. I read your 'relativism' in one way.

As for the Chinese perspective of 'routinely accepting lying, cheating'..etc...again, what YOU define as lying, cheating..is NOT the case within the group perspective. YOU define one person lipsyncing and another person singing - as 'lying, cheating'. They don't. You are viewing the event through YOUR societal structure - but they don't live that way.

And because YOU don't accept their perspective, a perspective based around the notion of collectivism, doesn't mean that it's wrong. YOU think it's wrong. But that's within your mode of life. There isn't ONE way to structure a society. There are two basic ways: group and individual.

In the West, the whole notion of individual authorship, patents and individual ownership, developed in the 13th-16th centuries. Before that, it didn't exist. And in China, it didn't exist. It's only now emerging. As has been previously pointed out - China has private property rights for its citizens. Canada doesn't.

Citius, Altius, Milli Vanillius

Good one maz2 / Kate...

"I'll leave you with this little thought. What do we remember from the 1936 Olympics? Hitler refusing to shake hands with Jesse Owens."-Phantom

Actually a lot of people dont know this but Hitler did shake hands on the first day of the Olympics with winners. By day two he was advised not to do it anymore as it was not normaly done by the leader of a host country, so he stopped.

The day Owens won his first medal Hitler did not shake the hand of even a German who won an event an hour earlier.

This was classic propaganda on our side.

Please dont take this as support for Hitler just mentioning it is all.

China has private property rights for its citizens. Canada doesn't.

Thanks for the interesting comments ET, but really, this is taking it a bit over the top eh?

Yeah, the charter is silent on property rights but the facts on the ground couldn't possibly support this preposterous claim! Moreover, the silence was intended to give government action freer reign; but this doesn't mean that Canadians don't have property rights which are vastly superior to whatever regmine China has in place.

A while back you said, with respect to our HRCs, that China has nothing on us. But we don't jail and murder dissidents ET.

To argue that China is not totalitarian is another of those semantical tricks. Sure, it no longer monitors and controls private life as suffocatingly as during the Mao era, but it's still totalitarian in that you cannot express certain opinions wihtout being on the receiving end of violence. As someone said, you're pretty free if you keep your political nose clean, but if you don't you'll get it cut off. Only in a totalitarian state is there a danger of having your nose cut off for expressing opinions the regime doesn't approve of.

In the end it comes down to theater with a plot. That’s the real human experience when it comes to anything of a subliminal fight, which athletics are to an extent. As different as the East from West scenario culturally we all strive for the same basics to survive with the same emotions. Competition being one of the largest drives. It generates to a large extent our hierarchy’s with Status associated with them in an individualist or collectivist society. After saying that I think the Olympics are way past there best date due in this model now used. To shady with like the Nobel prizes, compromised by politics or social fads so much its become a racket not a competition. I think the athletes deserve something better than the latest back drop to the World drama's of the day. It should stay in Greece where excellence of body & mind where first applauded in this fashion. Its the only filter from politics I can see as well major fraud. To be in them we could all chip in for the requisite facilities, as well the upkeep.

JMO

ET, apology accepted. But . . . I made it very clear that it was less the lipsynching than the self-serving cover-up that bothered me. I don't care where one lives or what one's perspective is, diliberately deceiving others for personal gain is not a good thing to do. It doesn't inspire trust or good will.

So, China's traditional behaviours don't inspire trust and good will? I think that's a negative.

P.S. ET, you wrote to The Phantom, "So, your image that the parents didn't complain because they feared the state is suspect; they didn't complain because it never occurred to them there was anything to complain about."

I disagree. A friend of mine has just returned from a month in China. The unwritten rule is that NO controversial or political issues will be discussed, and certainly NO negative comments about the government.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

"Only in a totalitarian state is there a danger of having your nose cut off for expressing opinions the regime doesn't approve of."

I don't know Me NO; there are a few fingers and toes I can do without if it will save me $100 000.

ET you are ruining these threads on China, mainly because you have nothing sensible to say.

Can you tell us why you have such a vested interest in defending the Chinese no matter what they do?

You seem quite down on Canada too. Perhaps you can explain the underlying reason for that too?

"You seem quite down on Canada too. Perhaps you can explain the underlying reason for that too?"

China and Canada are similar countries in this regard. Both countries operate on the ideal that no man or woman has the right to exist for his/her own sake. That a citizens life and work does not belong to him/her but to society.

No accident property rights are not enshrined in the Canadian constitution. It allows our government free reign to confiscate private property if they deem it necessary for the greater good Canada.

Uh - who cares?

I guess apparently lots of you...

Me, it matters none. Along with all the other results. It's just sports, folks.

Well MMM, I guess you choose to fiddle while Rome burns. (That's figurative language: you may look it up.)

If you think we're just talking sports here, you've missed the point.

Whatever . . .

me no dhimmi - you can't express many opinions in Canada without being on the receiving end of both violence (not state but personal) and our state sanctioned HRCs.

lookout - my data base is not from one person spending a month in China, but from both my years of study of societal infrastructures - and from Chinese colleagues and also from people, Canadians, who have lived and worked there for years.

It's a social structure in transition, and a lot of its laws and rules are ignored; a lot of decisions and actions are local and arbitrary (this of course happens everywhere in the world)and your view of China as a giant totalitarian topdown repressive regime - just isn't accurate anymore.

No, me no dhimmi, the norm in China is not to 'have your nose cut off' for expressing objectionable opinions. But the norm in Canada is that you cannot say anything that is 'likely to offend' someone. And we have a heavy bureaucracy and a lot of govt money vested in that role.

I also don't agree, lookout, that it was a 'cover-up' re the lipsyncing. As I said, in a group perspective, there isn't any cover-up, since both girls were members of the one group. Which girl performed which action is not relevant in such a perspective.

SDA r-eads MSM? SDA l-eads MSM?

"In the People's Republic of Milli Vanilli, this sort of phoniness goes on all the time."
...-

"China: a nation run by phonies
Jonathan Kay, National Post"
http://tinyurl.com/5hpq2b