The church is slightly more offensive. Disrupting funerals should be grounds for a swift kick in the nuts. Just like Paul Volpe's brother did to a CBC cameraman at Paul's funeral.

Barring their being kept out of the country, our best hope is they get pepper sprayed if they show up at McLean's service.

As Kate pointed out to me, the CTV story has been updated. Seems Minister Day has alerted border agents and asked that these wackos be denied entry to Canada.

This situation is interesting. In the whole HRC §13 freedom of speech debate, there has been general agreement on both the left and the right sides of the aisle that freedom of speech is really quite important, actually. Now here with these Westboro folks (all three or four of them), we have a denial of freedom of speech, and yet this one is also broadly supported by both the left and right right sides of the aisle. I don't have an argument here, I'm just noticing that pace all the sectional divisionism, there remains it seems some sort of sense of common human decency, difficult though it may be to legislate.

This Westboro Baptist Church "organization"/thing sounds like a real-life, professional troll group. Very bizarre.

Good for Stockwell day. This is a border issue, not a free speech issue. Hamas members, for example, are free to gas off if they're living in Canada, but that's a completely a separate issue from letting them across our border.

The Westboro Baptist Church members are planning to cross into Canada so they can protest at the funeral of murder victim Tim Maclean -- not to protest his murder, but to protest him; they save he *deserved* his death because of his "filthy way of life."

Money quote: "I haven't met him personally, but he has nothing going on."

I mean, come on; if we're ever going to regain control of our borders, barring the members of this church, who are so vile that people from any political view can agree on it, is as good a place to start as any.

You just don't go to another country to desecrate the life and the family of a completely innocent man who was murdered. Especially if you loudly announce it beforehand.

Respectfully, Vitruvius, I would suggest that if we, say, bar Al Qaeda members from entering the country, that's not a *free speech* issue.

I agree with Kate..... and they say ignorance is bliss....no wonder they are blissfully happy in thier stupidity, must be inbreeding...
pepper spray is not good enough, someone needs to take thier tattooed butts(as they say is the only way the border guards would recognize them) and drop them off in baghdad....

It is in part a free speech issue but it is also an issue of maintaining the peace. Church members have made it clear that they intend to simply cause a public disruption of the peace and aggravate locals.

I don't see any good reason to let these foreigners into Canada simply to cause a disruption. As I have said, if these were Canadian citizens, it would be a different but they are not.

Respectfully, EBD, I completely agree with you. That was, rather,
the point of my comment. Sorry I was, as too often, too obtuse.

It might well be a freedom of speech issue - if the members of the Westboro Baptist Church were Canadian citizens or foreigners with legal residency in Canada.

But they're neither and no country in the world is under any obligation to permit foreigners to freely enter its territory.

Case in point: remember when Yusuf Islam (aka Cat Stevens) was refused entry to the US and flew home to the UK in a huff, proclaiming there would have to be an explanation, what an outrage, blah-blah-blah?

Well, we heard no more about it. Why? Because, since he was neither a US citizen nor a legal resident/green card holder, he simply had no God-given right to enter the US. And US border officials were under no obligation at all to give him an explanation.

Stockwell has got it right: The Westboro clowns are foreign nationals. Tell 'em to take a hike.

(By the way, there are a lot of Canadians who should remember - when they get all upset about new US entry regulations screwing up their shopping spree in Watertown, New York - that they have no God-given right to enter another country either!)

Can we add a barrel of ether and lit match to that room?

Respectfully, Vitrivius et al, this is, if not a free speech issue, a basic freedom issue.
The state has no reason, nor moral right, to bar anyone entry to Canada just because they don't like what he/she might say or think.

The comparison with Al Qaeda is totally misplaced, as Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization with thousands of lives on its hands, while the Westboro guys only have provided the world with some utterly insensitive, bigoted, and incredibly stupid statements, on their web site and thru demonstrations.

The logical next step is now to extend the bôrder checks (and the entry forms) with questions such as:
"- Do you, or do you not, believe in a tax-payer funded woman's right to abortion, as a basic human right?
- Do you, or do you not, believe in socialized healthcare?
- Do you, or do you not, believe in the superiority of multi-culturalism?
- Do you, or do you not, believe in unlimited state oppression, provided the state considers it appropriate?
- Do you, or do you not, consider catastrophic AGW to be a fact?
- Do you, or do you not, totally admire the UN and the proud Canadian heritage of peacekeeping?
Note: If you answered No to any of the above questions, you may be barred from entry into Canada."

"The state has no reason, nor moral right, to bar anyone entry to Canada just because they don't like what he/she might say or think."

A foreign national has no intrinsic right of entry to any other country than his own even for the mere purpose of tourism.

Canada - or any other sovereign state - is perfectly entitled to determine which foreign nationals will or will not be granted entry and under what conditions.

The term "moral rights" is lovely and might give us all a warm glow inside but it has no bearing here.

"The logical next step is now to extend the border checks (and the entry forms) with questions such as:
- Do you, or do you not, believe in a tax-payer funded woman's right to abortion, as a basic human right?
- Do you, or do you not, believe in socialized healthcare?
- Do you, or do you not, believe in the superiority of multi-culturalism?
- Do you, or do you not, believe in unlimited state oppression, provided the state considers it appropriate?
- Do you, or do you not, consider catastrophic AGW to be a fact?
- Do you, or do you not, totally admire the UN and the proud Canadian heritage of peacekeeping?
Note: If you answered No to any of the above questions, you may be barred from entry into Canada."

As over-the-top as your example is, if Canada wanted to, it would be completely within its rights to ask such questions.

For that matter, Canada is within its rights to simply bar entry to any foreign national with no explanation required.

Free Speech exists in your house, you may say and do whatever you wish there. If this "church" wishes to preach sermons at their congregation house, post things on their website and so on, then let them.

Your right to free speech ends at my house. I have every right to exclude speech I do not agree with, and do so by not inviting people with veiws I find offensive to visit, turning off the CBC, not subscribing to the Globe and Mail or not visiting websites like Babble/Rabble.

As a sovereign nation, we have the ability to take the same actions on a macro scale, and that does indeed include preventing the Westbro "church" from entering Canada with the intent to do harm to private citizens.

A Japanese immigrant once told me that he came to Canada shortly after becoming a Christian. Of course one of the first things he looked for was a Christian Church. He was quite disappointed because all he could find were Baptist Churches.

WTF?!

I couldn't believe it! These people make me almost as ill as the actually story of Tim Mclean's murder. And PETA - a$$holes!

Kate's solution is best.

Is Minister Day aware of these "situations" at Canada's borders?
...-

"Emigrating British family turned away from Canada because their daughter, 7, is disabled

When Paul and Barbara-Anne Chapman presented their family's passports to a Canadian border guard, they assumed it was just a formality, the last step in their long-dreamed of move to a new life."
http://tinyurl.com/6bpa99 (dailymail)
...-

Paralyzed [Sikh] refugee claimant avoids deportation again

Protected inside a temple in suburban Vancouver and surrounded by hundreds of cheering supporters Wednesday, paralyzed refugee claimant Laibar Singh managed to avoid deportation for the second time in a month.
Singh, 48, was given notice that he was to be deported Tuesday night on the grounds he entered Canada on a fake passport in 2003, his lawyer Zool Suleman told CTV.ca." (ctv)"

Whatever you think, they are protesting at an innocent kid's funeral, which should not be politicized in this crass and disgusting way. As that church is only a few blocks from my house, I expect to be there in support of the family. I hope that people make them feel as unwelcome as possible.

The precedent has already been set. They were already turned away from the border years ago, when they planned to burn a Canadian Flag in front of the Supreme Court to protest Gay Marriage.

They started out by protesting at Gay Pride events, which is where I met them. I've fought for their right of free speech in the USA. They helped advance gay rights by showing moderate people that homophobia does exist as a completely irrational emotional overtaking of the senses in some people.

Then at Matthew Sheppard's funeral (20 something, sweet, gay kid, pistol whipped, tied to a fence in the cold, and left to die in Laramie, Wyoming, it took him a few days to die).

Then they went for the funerals of people dying of AIDS. For more attention, they started protesting at the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq.

People in the US have been ignoring them for years, so they've tried to get into Canada before, and again now.

They are definitely media whores, and I still can't figure out what their real purpose is except to spew hate from every cell of their beings.

As far as I can see the Phelps Phamily is "Christian" only because they say they are.

Their appalling tactics are nowhere advised or condoned in the Christian Scriptures. In fact, Christians are exhorted to pray for their enemies, to "do good to those who hate" them, or to come away from those whose lifestyles they deem to be blasphemous.

The Phelps renegade mavericks are snakes in the grass; it is a travesty that they call themselves Christians. I wonder how the Baptist Church feels about them?

Jesus said that not all people who call Him Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I think He may have had "followers" like the Phelps in mind...

Rest eternal grant unto Tim McLean, O Lord,
And may light perpetual shine upon him.
May he rest in peace.

ATTENTION: DARK ANGELS!!!

Hey members of WBC, have you ever heard of the saying, "Thou shall not judge? So why are you judging homosexuality and people of different ethnic backgrounds? That itself is dismissal for damination right down in fiery hell with your friend, Lucifer. Fred Phelps, may karma bite you and your insane church right in the ass. A place where you have probably already been sexually stimulated and most likely enjoyed. Why else would you be so against it? What do you care what anyone else does in their own bed? Don't be ashamed of who you are and start accepting the fact that you don't mind getting poked right up your ass or poking others.
Members of WBC, you have sold your souls to the Devil himself. You have become dark angels. Go to straight to hell, your home and eternity.
Stay away from Tim's funeral and
Stay away from Canada.

JJM,

You write:
- "Canada - or any other sovereign state - is perfectly entitled to determine which foreign nationals will or will not be granted entry and under what conditions."
- "As over-the-top as your example is, if Canada wanted to, it would be completely within its rights to ask such questions."

Perhaps, but not if Canada wants to be a free country.

By the way, who is to decide whom the state so graciously will allow entry into this arbitrary area we today call Canada? The ignorant mob? The unaccountable bureaucracy? The absent Queen?

In a free world, the state's only legitimate purpose is to provide protection for the individual (i.e. protection from real harm, such as on life & property), but not from insult, ridicule, or inconvenient ideas.

Totally a border control issue....these people have stated publically their intent of travel is to disrupt a private cermony. That may or may not be illegal but it is undesirable.

Border crossigs are unique places. No warrents required etc etc and no reasons required to refuse entry. Good on Stockwell, shows common sense.

Kyla, media whores (lol) yes that would be the correct, and charitable description.

Once again, if they lived here they might be able to do something, but my suspicion is then there would have been some other domestic law used to keep them seperate.

Nonetheless, there is no contradiction here, people can move on.

Conflating actions with freedom of speech?

It's called judging or being judged by ones actions and associations. OUR law permits it and our law enforcement agencies are perfectly justified in doing so when groups or individuals have a history of criminal and uncivil activity like the WBC.

Since the WBC members have been involved in provocations and deliberate efforts to create public confrontations including violence and in violation of court orders etc....they most certainly CAN be barred at the border.

They can be barred and if they sneak through at another POE they can and should be arrested.

All this can and should be done and will NOT make Canada any less free in any way.

This is not a religious or free speech issue, IMO. It's about common human decency, not the un-Christian hate coming from these con artists. They are a classic example of the people Jesus referred to when he said "I never knew you."

Their pastor is (hopefully) properly trained, so his trangressions (sins) are far greater than a lay person.

To h**l with them, literally. I don't care if they are barred entry; the funeral is none of their business and they should be prevented from disrupting it, and let the chips fall where they may afterward.

Free speech is a right, but it is not absolute.

My condolences once again to the family of Tim McLean.

With all due respect, V, as long as we have our so-called Human Rights commissions stiffling Canadian free speech, be damned if we should allow these religious wack-jobs to come here and "insult and offend" us all.

The Phelps family are absolutely repulsive twisted morons, but, that said they aren't on a terrorist list so denying them entry into Canada because they are repulsive morons doesn't seem like a smart move. It's basically the state exercising free speech censorship at the border which seems like a bad precedent to me. If they've come to disrupt and harass a funeral, which they have, then local law enforcement needs to intervene with them like they do here. Funerals are private affairs and they can be physically restricted.

As annoying as it is to about hear these fools I'm a believer that as long as bad, stupid and even repulsive people keep it verbal that are far less dangerous than a state that decides whose voice will be censored. The Phelps are vilified by the public here. PETA is largely deemed ridiculous and constantly lampooned. It's what a free marketplace of ideas does very effectively with stupid and offense people. Even the media has given up on doing outrageous Phelp's pieces here. This is the way it should be in a free society rather than state intervention.

Why is it that we always look to big government to solve these problems?
Forget the border.
Let the people who attend this funeral deal with the interlopers. These nuts can then have the pleasure of seeing the Canadian health care system up close, shortly after they try to disrupt the funeral. I know if someone tried to disrupt the funeral of one of my family members, they would find themselves bruised and bleeding on the curb in short order.
And the cops would likely be very busy somewhere else at the time...

Just a thought. ;)

I have seen these people on the news in protests at funeral's of two American soldiers. It was a real spectacle of ignorance. If these people do make it to the funeral, I hope several RCMP are there and maybe perform a group tasering on them.

As far is this "a free speech issue". It is not. They are interrupting a private affair. It is not their business. As for "Peta" they should be pulling every add that is linked to this affair with a public apology to the family of both sides. No person knew that this was going to happen except Vince Li.

Johan

Canada has the right to bar any non-citizen from our land for any reason we damn well please. There is no right for a non-citizen to enter our country.

Barring scumbags of all sorts is a collective right we ought to be exercising more often.

Frankly, if it was my kid being burried, I'd be bringing a baseball bat and a hammer to the funeral.

Court Rules Against ACLU and Protestors in Military Funeral Lawsuit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Tom Fitton
Feb 5, 2007

Last week, a U.S. District Court in Missouri denied a request by ACLU lawyers to prevent the state from enforcing rules that limit protests near funeral services. The ACLU filed the lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the law on behalf of protesters who were picketing and disrupting military funerals...

But would the ACLU support the Westboro nutters too?

Johan i Canada, I don't agree with your position.

The WBC is free to speak and, presumably, after the funeral, they would likely be allowed to enter Canada (unless they make another claim to disrupt another ceremony). Therefore, there is no speech being stifled.

They have, however, clearly stated the intent of their visit...to cause disruption and inflict emotional pain and suffering on a grieving family. Intense emotional pain and suffering can be deemed to be an assault...if not in criminal court, at least in civil lawsuits.

In a perfect world and forgetting about the costs involved, they SHOULD be permitted access to Canada, but they should be BARRED from approaching the grieving family. But that would mean having the government post police around the event to provide this security. From a PRACTICAL perspective, it serves the same purpose to simply bar them from entering Canada to perform their stated assault.

I don't see this as a black and white issue...it is most definitely gray...but a very faint grey. All things considered, Day made the most practical decision.

This group has stated that they are attending for the purpose of disrupting an event. Disrupting an event can be construed as a disturbance of the peace. That is an illegal act. The government is well within their rights to bar entry due to the
probability that they will break the law.
Free speech has nothing to do with it.

I quite agree WBC should be denied entry, I wish the border guards luck - it seems however that a large number of foreign undesireable people including repeatedly deported foreign born criminals keep entering the porous borders of this country.

[deleted - stop using other people's nicks. ED]

Eeyore

"In a perfect world and forgetting about the costs involved, they SHOULD be permitted access to Canada,"

In a perfect world, muslim fanatics, criminals, fraudulent asylum seekers and other scumbags would be barred from entering Canada along with this current crop of nutbars.

I see no reason why we shouldn't be VERY picky with who we let in and bar everyone who doesn't add up to they people we want.

Canada is a sovereign nation which has every right to police its borders and decide - for any reason - who to let in and who not to.

Many of the members of the Phelps family have been charged with battery and harassement including the Rev himself.

It is quite easy to deny entry to people with prior convictions.

No explanation needed.

I do not feel Freedom of speech is being violated in keeping these ignorant people out of Canada, I do not recall reading ANYWHERE, that this young mans family ask them SPEAK......they have said all they need to say.. if they are truly looking for freedom to speak they have thier websites for that... they just want some attention and they don't need to get it here. Respect and Love should be what they are speaking about.... if they spent as much time on thier knees and less pounding the streets more would get done. And as for Peta to even think about linking a Human life to that of an animal is beyond comprehension, the next time i see a cow sobbing holding a tissue, while burying its dead then i might reconsider and eat only veggies.....until then they need to get with the program..
May Tim Rest In Peace!

Kayla - "media whores" - exactly! They make me sick. They're the ones who embody evil.

And, I don't know if this is true, but I'm sure I read somewhere that a group of these losers actually made it across the border and were in Toronto (and heading west).

IMO these people are instigating violence which is indictable and thus it’s not a free speech issue as much because they are basically condoning the actions of the murderer. So it OK to go around cutting peoples heads off if you judge them to be in violation of some insane unfounded unlawful standard.

it is offensive to even contemplate disrupting a funeral no matter what.

Rest in Peace Tim.

These people have no right to freely spew 'their' speech (which I find offensive and hateful, btw) at a deeply sorrowful and personal event.
Period.

ONLY due to it's gruesome nature and subsequent international publicity, have these 'types' decided to profit from it.
Truly twisted and sick minds hard at work there.

{Still shaking my head on these scum, peta as well; and dp, agreed!

You are all pieces of garbage, to even listen or read or follow this lunitic is horrible. Why do you want to live your lives with so much HATE! I honestly didn't think I would ever come across something like this. How are you people not band from the internet, I don't care about free speech at this moment, you people are sycodic! Why can't we all just care about our family and friends and stop caring what others are up to. Hate fags, really cause what did they do to you? Holy your peoples way of thinking is just out of this world!

I think "sarah" lives on another planet. She seems to have misunderstood the whole point of this thread.

Can you read, sarah? Or, more to the point, can you process and understand what you read?

Try again.

Wow, I am just hearing about this group for the first time today. What a sick, twisted bunch of freaks!
Upon reading further about this "church", I see they're scheduled to be doing a protest in Red Deer tonight and Saturday. I live 10 minutes away...I might have to go check this out. I've gotta see what a person with this mentallity actually looks like.
I can't even fathom the idea of a group of wackos disrupting a funeral like they plan to. And they think McLean is the bad one and deserved this. Wow, some seriously messed up people!
I hope they rot in hell.

Anyone for a game of street hockey?

Bring yer sticks.

No calling "Car!" and no time outs...

Good ol' street hockey. Gets noisy...gets rough.

Practice them slapsots...

If you're gonna board someone....make sure the boardee lands on something soft.

"The state has no reason, nor moral right, to bar anyone entry to Canada just because they don't like what he/she might say or think"

Jim, you bone head:
Not only does the state have the right and reason to stop these azzholes at the border, they have the MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to do so. Their stated purpose is clear. Were I a family member I would expect no less from my government. They are foreign nationals who have no "right" to enter Canada for any reason.

This has nothing to do with free speech, anyone's rights to immigrate or visit. This has to do with the right of a family to bury and mourn the loss of a family member in peace.

Hey Dave! If they actually show up in Red Deer call the Mounties. As I understand it they are in Canada by deception and should be arrested and deported.

Seems the Alberta RCMP doesn't care what the public safety minister has to say.

http://www.zachbellshow.com/?p=223

just to throw a wrench into the mess--What if a group of homos were coming here to protest a neonazis funeral?
/P'\
\b`}

PETA - People Even Taste Awful ...uuugghhhh.

Only a lefty intending to undermine "freedom of speech" would bring up these two examples of "freedom of speech". Both examples, PETA and Westborough, are assaults to human decency, and only a socialist would be unaware of that.

Reg,

if it were a group of Americans and the Canadian public demanded that the government deny them entry to our nation, I wouldn't have a problem with that and I'm all for a neo nazi's funeral being protested.

"The state has no reason, nor moral right, to bar anyone entry to Canada just because they don't like what he/she might say or think."
What a bunch of bull. We have a right to bar anyone from entering this country for any reason. They do not have the same rights as our own citizens do.
In Canada we have anti-hate legislation which outweighs freedom of speech. Furthermore, in Canada it is illegal to disrupt a religious service, it is illegal to conspire to disrupt a religious service, and it is certainly illegal to "sneak into" this country when you have already been denied entry. I hope the RCMP do the right thing and arrest them all.... after all, they will have broken several of our laws.
And for the people who actually believe Canada is a free country, let me remind you that Canada is a Democracy, and demecracy by its very definition means the OPPOSITE of "free." If Canada were a "free" country, the killer wouldn't be in jail, would he?

It's worth putting this into context. It's not a freedom of speech issue. Canadians don't have unfettered access to American public lands because we aren't American citizens. We play by whatever rules they set when it comes to our entering their land. The same is true of American citizens seeking entry into Canada. Americans do not have unfettered access to Canadian public lands.

As it is though, this is not a free speech issue.

Contrary to some that think that the whole world can walk into Canada without any set of rules is living in some ( not really that surprising) never never land and is being something commonly described as a moron.
Canada is a sovereign country and it is valid to say that the government, what ever it is so far as politics, has a say who can and cannot enter the country, terrifying as it sounds, it is the way it is, lesser of two evils as it were.
If the populace chooses a different approach, perhaps the politicos will have to amend the laws.
In this case, it is that the law is with the decency and against barbarism.
The crowd from Hillsborough is neither decent, civilized nor religious. Basically the have their heads stuck up their collective asses and know their sheet.

The maximum effect is from everybody that opposes the idiots and never lets up.
If they did not get any publicity, it is doubtful that they would continue their low life being obnoxious idiots. Publicity is as potent as opium to some.

Ok, forget Hillsborough, let it be Westboro

Actually the greatest difficulty I have with this group is the method of delivering their message rather than the message itself. I don't share their outlook on life and I equate their method with that of the gay lobbyists that used to rush the altar of Catholic Churches desecrating the Host.

However I do think that their message itself needs to be heard. We as a society need to hear from all extremes no matter how offensive they be to our orthodoxies. A society that is never challenged soon becomes flaccid and never reaches its full potential.

BTW I would ban them from Canada until they modify their delivery method.

Having known of the Phelps clan and having seen them in action personally, my advice is to completely ignore them. They feed on creating strong negative reactions in otherwise peaceful people. It's what they live for.

Please starve the monster. I bet they are so excited with all the new website hits they've received since the announcement. To them it says, "Look at that, see how powerful and relevant we are?"

As usual Dawg was quick to blame conservatives, read most of his posts and by the time you get to the second paragraph he has blamed conservatives in general, Bush, Harper or others on the right, which make most of his posts as unreadable as the old propaganda magazines from China or the Soviet Union,

Dwag is an idiot.
If he shut up you'd never know though.

The Westboro church is like a patch of dandelions on your lawn. The more you kick them, the stronger they get. And just when you think they’re gone, they reappear in another location. Just like any weeds, if they are to be completely removed, you must have a well thought out strategy.

- "Canada has the right to bar any non-citizen from our land for any reason we damn well please."
- "We have a right to bar anyone from entering this country for any reason."
- "Barring scumbags of all sorts is a collective right we ought to be exercising more often."

Well, this is interesting. The collectivist & totalitarian tendencies seem to reside not too far below the surface.

Of course, should someone pose a clear threat to one or more individual in Canada, then the state has the right, and obligation, to bar his/her from entering the country.
But "for any reason"? Defined by whom? The mob? The buruaucracy? The Queen? God?

And, since when is there such a thing as "collective rights"? Presumably the writer refers to the collective with rights such as the right to bar private delivery of healthcare, or the collective's right to force workers to belong to a union and support NDP (against their will). Or the collective's right to impose HRC defined limits on free speech.

Btw, why should a citizen scumbag/criminal have more rights than an honest and hard working foreigner?

That was a nice poem, but I'm afraid there must be another "dp" posting here. I'm not much of a poet. If someone else wants to use "dp" would you mind using capitals or something?

I think there's more to this problem than free speech. They're infringing on someone's religious freedom to grieve, and celebrate the life of a family member, with dignity. This is an accepted ritual in this country, and nobody has the right to interfere, not even the media.

I imagine the police will do the right thing, but you never know.

Dwag is an idiot.
If he shut up you'd never know though.

Posted by: ldd at August 9, 2008 9:05 AM

I've just read some of Dawg's work for the first time and strongly suspect that his incoherent ramblings are written tongue-in-cheek for the sole purpose of annoying anyone right of centre.

It's just not possible for someone to be that obtuse and lacking in common sense. Is it?