Ah, father/son bonding, yer can't beat it.

"Toke up my boy, but don't Bogart that joint."

test

Wow he smoked dope and drank with his son a minor, which is illegal. Yep there's those Liberal/Socialist Family Values. No wonder society has become a cess pool.

Good luck with the law suit fella, your son may of been drunk and high whilst committing a crime whilst brandishing a blade and his death is the police's fault. Yea I can just see the judges face, not that anyone would be stupid enough to actually take his case.

wow -- looks like a six figure (no brainer) settlement law suit to me! Let me know if you need a lawyer, I'm sure you'll have no problem finding one. Sorry about your loss...

Sounds like Canadian Native Indian culture. You know, the one we pay about 12 billion a year to support because it's so ... noble!

A native kid (half native? .. whatever) challenges the police with a knife. Many years ago he would have been shot. Instead they taze him and for whatever reason he dies. He died of stupidity not racism, police brutality or anything else.

I know for some, it's difficult to see a life spent walking 4 or 5 miles a day collecting cans and bottles with which to get money for dope and booze, snuffed out so young, but to decent sensible people that is the sort of thing that happens to that sort of person and ... who cares!

We can only hope that the progressives and the Indians don't completely destroy the lives of the policemen involved. It's just like those progressives to take time out from their vigil to free Omar Khadr long enough to make shit fly in Winnipeg.

One more point to dear old dad.

Police wisely prefer not to try to disarm, wrestle with or make any physical contact with people who they think might have AIDS, Hep C or who knows what else. The Taser is a logical option to protect police and disable crazy people.

Of the thousands of taser events each year, very few die. Those who do, would have stayed alive by simply doing what the cops told them to do. Simple eh?

Taser deaths are 100% preventable. Stupidity, apparently is not.

Good catch. There was an earlier article that caught my eye:

“He would carry a little knife, because you know what? That's what kids do."

On what planet? My high school had 1200 students, I ran with "the bad crowd": nobody carried knives. We fought with our fists. Knives are for career jailbirds and pussies who can't fight like a man, at least in my culture; I can't speak for other cultures.

"I didn't approve of it, but how are you going to stop that?"

Uh, I dunno, a size twelve steeltoe up his ass? Get his father to administer discipline, as humans have done for one million years? In any case, that's a pretty clear admission that single moms aren't fit to raise boys.

In my community the cops tasered an unarmed 17 year old kid who was behaving erratically in the middle of the street, not a threat to anyone. They were just too lazy - and weak - to tackle a 17 year old boy, so they tazed him.

www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080723.wtaserupdate0723/BNStory/National/home?cid=al_gam_mostview

best short list the pair of them for their Order of Canada medals . . . so richly deserved eh ?

at least the Khadrs tried to give their kids direction.

hows about we replace Michin's son with Omar Khadr. Kill two birds with one stoner.

"He was a perfectly healthy 17-year-old kid."

-- Who was a pot smoker and drinker...at 17. Perfectly healthy, upstanding member of society.

Only the good die young!

I would appear there is a chance of dying when tasered . I would think that the chances of dying from a couple of well placed round from a police officers side arm are much higher. The answer is to let the bleeding hearts take the taser away from the police then ignore their bitching and complaining when some dirt bag gets shot and killed.

The kid has a knife and the cops choose not to shoot him and the parents are complaining? Taser the parents. (Twice)

He said he doesn't have many memories of his son

That's a major part of the problem right there.

They smoked joints and drank beers at halftime, he said.

Well that just about raps it up why he was shot. Like Father like son.

If he was a Heathy as a horse why wasent he working? Could it be his Dad influenced his lyfestyle? Now he wants payment for the neer do well he didn't raise obviously at all. I guess to his sort even the corpse of his own son is a commodity for monetary exchange. No one takes responsability & watch we will end up paying this pig our tax dollars, not for grief but for an absentyeee fake Dad who's only care it seems is he continue the legaqcy imimparted to his late son. That of Bum. I still say you go after a cop your looking for a funneral, justly so in my opinion.

Being drunk or stupid is no excuse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfvWseJuaNo

Maybe the loving father should have a chat with Paul Martin, he's very interested in Indian Affairs, it's his retirement hobby or something. He should be able to at least blame the Conservative government for the unfortunate death.

Kate, I know you don't like profanity on your site, but can you make an exception in this case?

My reaction was, "Oh f---!" stopping myself in mid-laughter.

Do I feel some sympathy for the deceased boy? Damn right. It sucks he had to have such crappy negligent parents and then have his life cut short as a result of his entirely predictable behaviour. The Winnipeg police tried to use sub-lethal force on the boy in an effort to save his life despite him wielding a knife. Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way and the police's immediate attempts to revive the boy failed.

But can I laugh at his dad? Can I say, "Oh f---!" in reaction to his position?

That article is the biggest self-parody I've seen this side of MSNBC. It's amazing. And I haven't even finished reading it. I shall do that next.

Now in the process of braving a few more hilariously sad paragraphs:

Mr. Minchin: "He probably was drunk because he gets kind of crazy and brave when he's drunk."

"Mr. Minchin wants to know why police didn't try to use means other than a taser to disarm his son."

See above quote from yourself, Mr. Minchin. They're probably directly related, you negligent numbskull who had more to do with your son's death than did the police!

That last line was not an attempt at humour.

I simply wonder what institution that father went to to learn to come across as dumb as he does?????

What did the police do in the time before tazers, when having to subdue a drunk/stoned person who was waving a knife at them? Pepper spray them, sic a police dog on them, shoot them, or whip out the batons and beat them to a bloody pulp. All of which people have died from as a result.

Rose "Yea I can just see the judges face", this is not an open and shut case. Let us not forget how many of these judges were appointed by Liberals. As such most of them are of the "We're all victims, no one is responsible, it's society's fault" philosophy.

The worst thing is that police draw the tasers thinking those are less than lethal, but people die. It's unfair to police to arm them with a toy and promise that this toy won't kill the customers, then watch how one after another the people zapped pass away.

Aaron, police know the weapon (not toy) can be fatal. They use it because it's less likely to be fatal. Your comment was ill-thought out. Ignorance isn't mandatory, you know.

One can only hope that's the end of that familys bloodline.

Trash!

I disagree; I think that the taser is overused by police. The fact is - it IS a lethal weapon. The probability of death from its use is not rare but frequent enough that its use should only be in the most extreme cases. I don't think that this was one of those cases.

As for the 'reasons' given by some of the justification for the boy's death - I don't think they are valid.
The fact that the boy had a disgustingly irresponsible father; that all he did with his own life was to search for old beer cans to get enough money for his drink/drugs - none of this justifies his death or his being 'tasered' by the police.

The fact that he carried a knife - again, that's no justification.

IF, IF, he had been actually attacking a police officer, then, I can possibly accept their use of lethal force. But he wasn't. He simply wasn't obeying their request to 'drop the knife'. He wasn't attacking them.

What to do? I think that there has to be some serious review of when to use the taser. Again, I think it's become too handy and overused.

A year or so ago some half crazed knife wielding idiot was surrounded by the local police who ordered he guy to drop the knife. He didn't...so they shot him. Same result.
Of course all us red necks in the wild, wild west are gun happy fanatics.
The global warming Nazis should be on the side of the guns. You don't have to use that dirty, poluting, environmentally degrading electricity to charge up a gun.

I see the G&M decided to leave out that he was also a meth addict.

ET - So you see nothing wrong with pulling a knife on a cop? You don't even see a hint of aggression there? Have you ever even been close to a real fight? ... I mean the physical kind.

"IF, IF, he had been actually attacking a police officer, then, I can possibly accept their use of lethal force."

Yes - IF he had been attacking them, they would have shot the little bastard with their pistols. Since he wasn't, they used a taser instead. This kind of situation is exactly why they have the taser in the first place.

"I disagree; I think that the taser is overused by police."

ET, I agree with you its overused. I totally agree.

However, THIS case is EXACTLY the type of incident it SHOULD be used for.

Aggressive armed drunk teenager. There's a risk in using it, but less of a risk than other options. I don't support using the TASER as a compliance device. But to take down someone with a weapon? Yes.

One thing they'll have to look at as a training issue is where the teenager was struck. There seems to be some indication the TASER may be more dangerous when it hits the chest than the abdomen.

this case APPEARS(if you can believe the lying cops) that the taser was justified. THEY are tasering people for practice! Read up on it.

So ET...the police, acting on information that the kid had committed a crime, had an obligation to take him into custody. And he's brandishing a knife...in the presence of THE POLICE! And he refuses to drop it. What is your plan for the resolution of the matter?

Do the police have to approach more closely to determine if he is actually going to use the knife on them? And if they get close enough, and he makes an effort to stab the police officers, what is the probability that the police cannot react in time to prevent their own injury, or possible death?

Think about it. How many seconds would it take you to lunge and cover a distance of say...20 feet? Two seconds, maybe three? That is not a lot of time for the police to react to an imminent threat.

Here's a suggestion. Call your local police department and volunteer for their "ride along" program, so that you can get a better idea of the type of situations the police have to deal with on a daily basis.

You might learn something...

reg dunlop, if you're going to make grand claims like "they" (Who are they? Winnipeg police? Anyone in particular?) are TASERing people for target practice, can you do more than encourage us to "read up on it"?

You're making an outlandish claim. You're also stating we can just read about it and understand it. Fine. Help us out by showing what to read, or shut up.

From Wpg.Free Press (Fri),this stellar example of 'fatherhood' was 'panhandling all day to support him and his son' and this 'He didn't go back to school last year when school started..he was kind of a stubborn kid,you know?He didn't RESPECT me that much I suppose.He was a kid so I still loved him.Harmless kid.Maybe he did some stupid things once in awhile,but who doesn't as a teenage kid?
Gee Dad,if you had wanted the kid to respect you..maybe you should have been a better example?

ET, should the cops have set up a folding table, sit down, order pizza and just wait him out then?

"Maybe he did some stupid things once in awhile,but who doesn't as a teenage kid?"

Yep...remember those times way back when, when we were teenagers...when we broke into cars, stole property belonging to other innocent people, and then when confronted by the police threatened them with a knife?

Me neither...

"volunteer for their "ride along" program"

I did this once when i was a news reporter. My main memory is that police aren't supermen - or superwomen - and situations escalate very quickly.They're brave and professional, but that doesn't mean they're the toughest guy on the block, nor do they pretend to be. One person with a knife can cause a lot of grief in a few seconds, including what happens to a civilian who gets in the way while they're escaping.
I don't think magic alternatives to tasers exist, and people have died when being subdued with physical force of all types.

ET, here are some of the bad things that can happen when you leave an aggressive drunk teenager with a knife:

- they can charge the police, thus guaranteeing suicide by cop (certain death)
- they can charge the police, and within 20 feet or so, close the distance before the police can do much, thus killing or injuring officers
- they can escape and evade, causing police to fire which might injure bystanders or people in their homes
- they can kill or injure themselves with the knife

Or the police can deploy a TASER which can, but generally doesn't, cause a fatality.

The person responsible for the death was the boy, with a strong assist from his wayward parents.

Lots of sad aspects to this story. A parent who didn't do much to steer his son right. A young man who wasted his life. Some cops who are going to get dragged through the mud because it's politically correct. And lots more people getting killed when tasers are taken away from cops and they need to start shooting people who pull knives.

All life is precious. Too bad this one ended with a kid pulling a knife on a cop. Maybe under different circumstances this life could have been steered in the right direction.

I'm not making outlandish claims, Christoph, only well documented examples to form an opinion.
Type in T-A-S-E-R to your search engine and you'll find that canadian cops are the world leaders in the usage of their favourite weapon, the taser. And it's used for, apparently, their own practice or enjoyment.

Link to at least ONE specific reference or story, reg dunlop. I'm not searching the entire Google results for the T-A-S-E-R term to research your assertion.

Since you claim to have seen evidence of this, it shouldn't be that hard to present some here.

And, for what it's worth, I think TASERs are used inappropriately at times in Canada, and elsewhere. I've already said that.

In this case, the TASER was justified for reasons I and others have expressed.

From the previous post;
{The following is an extract from the book "Tools of Violence: Guns, Tank and Dirty Bombs" by Chris McNab and Hunter Keeter. While the book deals with military weapons, the small arms section includes info on police shootings from which this is extracted.

"One final issue also needs to be laid to rest, that of the perceived advantage of a gun over a knife. The lethality of a knife must not be underestimated. It requires no loading, reloading, or firing procedure, can produce lethal injuries with every single thrust, retraction, and slash, and is often better than bullets at generating injuries producing critical blood loss. Patrick and Hall make note of tests done at the Firearms Training Unit (FTU), and the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia, where a rubber-knife armed instructor would charge and attack a fellow officer, armed with a blank-firing pistol, from a variety of ranges:

“Beyond a distance of 21 feet [6.4m], the agent with the handgun had time to evade the initial attack and shoot, if the gun were already in hand. Inside 21 feet, most of the agents could still fire a shot by the time the attacker reached them with the knife, as the attacker concurrently was able to stab or slash the agent. The harsh reality in such circumstance is that unless the shot happens to hit the attacker in the central nervous system, the attack will succeed ... At closer ranges, the attack was successful before the agent could raise his weapon and fire a shot. When the agent started from a holstered position, he was successfully stabbed/slashed every time when the attack commenced inside 21 feet.”}

Please, if you are going to comment about what the police should or should not do, gather a little real life information (as opposed to what is on TV) about what the police face and the risks involved.

The alternative to a taser in a situation such as this one is called.... A Service Revolver!!
That option pretty much guarantees the kid dies.

The police took the conservative measure and unfortunately it still turned out badly.

The only things that could have been done better here were the parenting and the kid's choice not to drop the knife.

Again, I repeat, when a law enforcement officer directs you to do something... DO IT!

If they are out of line, you pursue it within the legal system. You don't argue and you don't fight!

Unless a dirt nap is your ultimate goal.

a link for Christoph: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/11/22/taser-death.html

And it's one of many.
Check out the police response of taser usage deaths inquiries--All Negative! IE: the effing cops are never wrong, no matter what. And when they're shown to be wrong, Dzaniek, they lie and backstabbed their way out of it.

Brent - Why bring reality into a professor's world view?

Reg Dunlop
You may be right about them using the taser more in this country.
That could just as easily be attributed to them trying to avoid using lethal force.

Do you know anything about the bureaucracy involved when a police officer pulls his/her sidearm?
Do you know anything about the risks police face anytime they confront a combative person?

I'm betting you are so far removed from that kind of violence (again the real kind, TV does not count) that you'd crap your pants if faced with it.

The police do it daily for you and I.
Personally, I will place my faith in them all day everyday before listening to a blowhard like you.

You're an obvious fool, Brent.
My comment wasn't posted prior to this but the use of tasers is epidemic in canada. Take that as you search.

I agree with ET.

PiperPaul: "ET, should the cops have set up a folding table, sit down, order pizza and just wait him out then?"

Actually, waiting to see if the individual calms down is definitely a better choice.

Bruce: "the police, acting on information that the kid had committed a crime"

I see nothing in the story indicating the police were acting on information that he had committed a crime.

Some commenters are making the assumption that the kid was violent. Potentially he was, but most people are not when smoking dope. It is also possible that in this case he was smoking dope on his own, and that the cops initiated the altercation.

Cops are not infallible. Most of the cops I have met on the beat are assholes, assuming the worst of the most harmless and law-abiding citizens.

Kate just posted a link to a story of cops fining people for smoking in their cars.

Recently I was tailgated by a cop for miles in the dark of night in a rural area, as he waited for my speed to exceed the limit, at which point he pulled me over to give me a ticket.

From my experience, most cops are assholes, whether they are talking to hardened criminals, grannies or infants.

Cops have a tough job, but certainly nobody forces them to take up the profession, and they do not have the right to abuse law-abiding citizens.

Perhaps this kid led a less than exemplary life, but that does not mean his life was worthless.

Let us see now.

This is a major tragedy on human scale of things. Death of you child who ever you are what ever are the circumstances, all is disqualified for the moment, it is unbearable.

The problem of today’s young is that the previous generation grew up not by the wishes of their parents. The previous generation grew up according to ‘scientific methods’ of other people that never had children, though they were good at writing and spreading propaganda that the parents are wrong and the sociologists are right.

Remember one named Spock the guy never had a child until he was like hundred years old, (exaggeration, don’t make a federal case out of it), the guy wrote a book on how to raise a child and had absolutely on idea himself. It must have sounded good. He managed to screw up a whole generation of parents and messed up children in the process.

Life being somewhat self-correcting process is trying hard to repair all that garbage, though there will be victim, actual victims that will pay for the foolishness.
Not that everything was the best before, though it was not as bad on such a massive scale.

Sociology, hardly being a science discipline, is fully responsible for what happened in this case.

Consider this, the boys father behaves as a barbarian, how could he know any better how to guide his son? It is likely that the boy was told at times that his behavior could use some attitude adjustment.

The thing is some kids need a slap, not a beating, a slap to get attention, then they need to be held by their parent and they need a good hug, this is not the frilly bloody hug they come up with at your work, a real solid kind of deal that show them you mean well, you are there for him, he is all you’ve got, just trying to get their attention.

There is more, though this is exhausting.

Reg
It is amazing how many times, when you confront a fool with their fallacies, they resort to name calling.
I know, I called you a blowhard first, but only after pointing out your fallacies.
You are trying to use taser usage rates to make the claim that police are abusing them.
You however, provide no evidence to support that, beyond your very weak opinion.

You still have not supplied "ONE" link to support your claim.
Could that be because your sources don't really support your opinion until you twist them just the right way?

Provide the evidence or give us your absence.

sf: "I see nothing in the story indicating the police were acting on information that he had committed a crime."

And the citizens phoned the cops after they witnessed him in breaking into a car ...

So what, exactly, is your definition of committing a crime?

sf
You are characteristic of the people I listen to at work (Provincial Transprortation).
It's always the cop's who are to blame for their crappy record.
"They are persecuting me."
I work directly with the police.
They don't have the time to chase individuals unless they work in a town with a populace in the low thousands.

Yes, some cops are pricks.
That comment can be made about any segment of the populace.
Some of the people in my office are pricks. So what!
The vast majority are normal guys like you and I with a little larger balls. (a requirement to be able to handle the job)

If you only encounter assholes, it's because they are reflecting your attitude back at you.

Oh and by the way, when this story first broke, it was openly stated that the kid was breaking into cars and observers called the police.
They responded as required to.
They were doing their job.

the most despicable thing to me is that the father seems to be completely unapolegetic for the way he raised his kid and for the way his kid was living his life. And how the press seems to have calmly taken down and printed his POV without apparently any editorial comment.

That the father is not ostracized for his conduct only provides tacit societal approval for the resulting failed life. I don't blame society for not giving him enough opportunity but for giving him too much.

So sf... lets see if I understand you. You tell us a 'why I hate cops'story that has you driving down a dark rural road being followed by a cop. In your mind that cop was waiting for you to speed up so he could write you a ticket. So... you speed up and the "a**hole" gives you a ticket! I think I know what sf stands for now.

Mr Minchin is obviously not the most organized or responsible fella on the planet, and he's grieving the loss of his son.

As far as the lawsuit goes, I've known others to make similarly, well...let's use the term exaggerated, statements about retaliation or compensation after severe losses, in similar types of emotional situations; so I'll cut him some slack and wait to see how things actually play out.

Besides, there's nothing I could say or do that would exact a more fitting reality for him than the simple unfortunate consequences of his past decisions as a parent.

Anyone who thinks Mr Minchin (or his son, or other family members, or his culture) needs or deserves more criticism or disrespect right now is the kind of bully who kicks a man when they're already down and well out, and possibly the kind of bully who enjoys it.

So, whatever else, to Mr Minchin: I'm really sorry for your loss,and there's no way I'm going to allow myself to take *any* cheap shots or personal pleasure in your situation. I do, however, gently suggest you drop the lawsuit; no good will come of it.

And, no, of course: the police did not cause this situation, at all. They tried to make the best of an already bad situation. My respect to them.

Oh...John V: there's enough irresponsible losers in any culture that you didn't have to get all racially pointy-fingered about it; although by doing so, you do kinda prove the point I'm making right now.

And, John V, about this: "I know for some, it's difficult to see a life spent walking 4 or 5 miles a day collecting cans and bottles with which to get money for dope and booze, snuffed out so young, but to decent sensible people that is the sort of thing that happens to that sort of person and ... who cares!":

My grandfather picked cans and tins every week for spare cash till the week he died. At least when Mr Minchin's son was doing that he was working and not stealing. There's nothing dishonourable, indecent, nonsensical or disrespectful about picking up tins and bottles, and shame on you for making it part of your intended insult.

I also don't exactly respect that you don't find the loss of Mr Minchin's son difficult at all, and I don't respect at all that you're so obviously proud of not caring.

And how the press seems to have calmly taken down and printed his POV without apparently any editorial comment.

Actually, objective reporting of what folks say is what reporters are supposed to do in news articles.

You're only surprised because such objectivity away from the op-ed page is so darn rare these days ;-)

if some people here think they could do better then the cops, go for it, and hope you don't run into people like some of those from my youth, because you will go home bloody sore, when you leave the hospital. There are a lot of losers out there that have no repect for society, themselves and especialy cops!!!

and as someone suggested, ride shotgun witha cop for a couple shifts, you'll get the drift real quick

Oh, sf, yeah, there are some cops who are real pricks, but there were times that I deserved the thumping in the back room of the pohleece station:-))))))

"The problem of today’s young is that the previous generation grew up not by the wishes of their parents."

Lev, I would say the problem with this young man is he grew up by the wishes of his parents.

Actually Ron, we should not be surprised.

These days the media only editorializes when they can criticize the police or the conservatives.

If it's the other side of the coin they are quite happy to leave out as much relevant information and opinion as they can.

I do have to agree that sympathies have to be extended to the family of this kid.

I will however not do so at the expense of the "men & women in blue" who protect me daily.

If I cannot support them first and foremost, I do not deserve their protection.

A couple of years ago a spousal abuser emerged from a house not far from where I live brandishing a knife. He wouldn't drop the knife on request and two rounds from a Calgary Police .40 Glock were required to deal with the situation. The guy didn't make it.

What is interesting is that there was a lot of publicity about this incident early on but the police were never widely criticized. And after a day or two nothing more was every reported.

The MSM is sporting a huge obsession with Tasers. It's almost like the incident in Winnipeg would have been LESS controversial had the officers used their sidearms to deal with this.

Ron Good,

Your noble speech about Mr Minchin and his son and the lawsuit, would have so much more meaning to me ... if his son was actually buried before he started to talk about a lawsuit.

But what the heck, have a nice day!!!

reg dunlop, your exact assertion is "lying cops" are using TASERs for practice. You said we should read up on it.

Well, where is your evidence the police are using TASERs on the public "for practice"?

Personally Christoph, I'm hoping he took my advice and is blessing us with his absence.
Not holding my breath though.

Your noble speech about Mr Minchin and his son and the lawsuit, would have so much more meaning to me ... if his son was actually buried before he started to talk about a lawsuit.

Yeah, I know. The stages of grief follow such an exact schedule usually. Impolite of him, really.

*
"et moans... He simply wasn't obeying their request to 'drop the knife'."

which, my lib-lickin' friend, puts him on the endangered species list.
and guess what... it's not a request... it's what's known in the trade
as "your last warning, asshole".

and what about dear ol' dad... "he said he doesn't have many
memories of his son..."

my guess is... pops doesn't have many memories of the day before
yesterday... which is what happens when you chemically fry all
your synapses from a very early age.

like... i'm guessing... socialist uber-troll "et".

*

Christoph: “I would say the problem with this young man is he grew up by the wishes of his parents.”

Could be, nobody knows, for all anybody can tell, the parents don’t know what the day of the week and what year it is.
Likely the boy was in the care of some social worker, well meaning though utterly unable to do anything.
There is no excuse for what has happened.
The police are the least culpable. They do what they need to do.
I have no use for police, they are freeloaders in the first place and police in second.
It is not society’s fault; the fault lies with those that came up with all that sociological nonsense and those that imposed the structure on the population only so they have some job guarantee.
You may have come across circumstance where use of common sense would solve a situation, though once someone starts intellectualizing, common sense looses ground, guaranteed.

"Nothing says grief like a lawsuit" - Ron Good

Ron, I respectfully disagree.

Mr. Minchin does not need to be coddled by those who provide emotional support or silence in his ridiculous desire for a lawsuit.

He should be publicly shamed because while it's too damn late for him, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind who hears this story that poor parenting such as his leads too death. I don't want people believing the policing lead to death when it clearly wasn't the problem.

If that's too tough for Mr. Minchin, tough. He killed his son far than the police did and he's blaming those good people for his irresponsible and criminal actions.

I would like to see him charged, convicted, and imprisoned for contributing to the delinquency of a minor, specifically doing illegal drugs with one, and drinking. Justice is harsh and Mr. Minchin deserves some. Pour encourager les autres.

Golly gee. A Metis drinks and uses drugs. To support his habits, he steals. Heavens to Betsy.
What next?
Oh, yes. He came from a dysfunctional family, with an absent father. Now, that's news.
The police who outnumber this little teenager (smaller than most female police constables)are frightened when he threatens them with a knife. These protectors of our property have only two choices: taser him, or shoot him.
The father mourns the death of a son he hardly knew, which is truly amazing.
If any of this is surprising, you've been out of the country too long.

gellen, you disgust me. You face a 17 year old male...

... old enough to join the Canadian Forces and become a professional war fighter...

... with a knife whose own father describes him as "crazy" and "brave"... and you insult the police for being, as you put it, "frightened" of him?

You disgusting despicable cowardly puke. I'm so friggin' glad you're not telling me this in person. I might have to...

... spit at, but not on, your feet, and turn my back on you after, then give you the finger as I walk away, secure in the knowledge you will do nothing at all.

Cristoph: Thank you for your tone. I'm always fine with a repectful disagreement, and there will indeed be a time for at least some of what you suggest--and it won't be wrong when it happens.

My thinking is that it's not now, but you make solid points, especially about the very real consequences of poor parenting and about the place of the police in this tragedy. And I'm also actually quite sure Mr Minchin will have no shortage self-imposed shame and regret.

Ural, on the other hand, is just trying to put straw-man words in my mouth. He knows I never said anything even close to that.

Ron, you're welcome. I'm having a conversation with my girlfriend and when I mentioned your position (we often talk about child rearing together and I want her to understand my attitudes on the subject; generally, but not always, we are in tune), I said you seem like a good man and I mean it.

You'll see I had a different tone for geller and I don't apologize for it. I found his/her position beneath contempt and I cannot, in good conscience, say s/he also strikes me as a good person.

"And I'm also actually quite sure Mr Minchin will have no shortage self-imposed shame and regret."

I'm less certain than you are.

However, a prosecutor also has an obligation to enforce the laws to set an example for the community. This is such a case, I believe.

Yes, I would take into account his loss when it came to a sentencing recommendation, and depending on his record, may ask for nothing but a minimal sentence.

But I would make the charge. It's not my decision to make, but for his son to die in an alcohol-fueled incident (speculative, but that's his dad's speculation) with a knife, and for his dad to talk about his drug and alcohol use with his minor son... well, it occurs to me the whole reason drinking and doing drugs with a minor, contributing to their delinquency, is against the law is to prevent precisely what happened.

I guess he should have been hanging-out at his local free injection site instead.

My tax dollars = one less smacked-up looser on the street. Money well spent for a change.

missing link, I gotta say I think that's horse crap.

It's tragic a young life was ended this way. I would have strongly preferred he had been given a chance to reform himself and a better upbringing. It's true his own actions prevented this in the end. If he could have been taken alive, that might have been possible and it would have been preferable — to any decent person.

Wishing for a troubled youth's deaths is more contemptible than anything even geller said.

Brent: Understood and agreed.

22 people have been killed with tazers in five years. does anyone know how many people police have shot in five years? i guess you don't have to shot them if you can kill with a tazer.

If this "father" sues the police , who will pay his legal bill?

He said he doesn't have many memories of his son

That's what killed this young man: his parents' neglect. It's probably the primary reason why he turned to booze and dope which, given their natural course to emaciate and compromise the user's health over years of misuse, would probably have killed him sooner or later. The taser, unfortunately, speeded up the process, but this young man was well on his way, already, to an early death.

It's very sad that he died, but he could have prevented an ARMED confrontation with the police if he had not been drunk, doing drugs, and holding a weapon which he threatened the police with. What were they supposed to do? Give him a hug? Get him to a sweat lodge? Hold hands and dance in a merry circle?

Give me a break. No wonder Canada's in such a mess. Misplaced sympathy everywhere and no accountability for one's own actions. This kid was a walking disaster just waiting to happen, and there's no one to blame but him and his AWOL parents, especially his father.

Fatherless homes are the scourge of North America, and the sooner we face this reality, the better.

Go to The Black Rod http://blackrod.blogspot.com/ and scroll down to the June 19th entry for a discussion on what the police in Winnipeg is up against. Truly disgusting.

ANyone notice the AMAZING coverage that the liberal media wing, i mean CBC put out on this story? Sarcasm off.
CHeck this out:http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/07/25/langan-father.html

Note, no mention of the dad and father toking up, no mention of the stealing and bad crap the boy did. The spin on this is sad sad sad.
A

What kind of moron stands off against -two- (2) opponents armed with guns, tasers AND clubs, and all he's got is a knife? Another Darwin Award winner here, for sure.

It has been my opinion of late that the cops are getting pretty free and easy with the zapping of people, they often seem use it to put down unarmed agitated civilians, which is not what they are supposed to be doing. However, this is clearly not the case here.

This is exactly what tasers are for. No cop in his right mind is going to wrassle some kid with a knife, particularly when the kid is "under the influence". DRUNKS DON'T FEEL PAIN, particularly when the alcohol is accompanied by some of the more common street drugs. You can kick these guys in the balls and they won't notice.

Armed drunk/druggie, you either shoot him or you taser him while your buddy stands ready to shoot him. You try to shoot him in the head or the heart too, because drunks/druggies tend not to notice they've been shot six times. They take the lead and stab you to death before they bleed out. Happens all the time.

This is not secret information by any means. Talk to any ER doctor, cop, nurse or even the average bouncer, they will tell you this stuff. They've -seen- it. Some of them see it every week.

The Globe and Mail is pursuing disinformation here, in classic MSM tear jerker style. "Why did this poor young man have to die? [sob!]" He had to die because of his own actions. He chose death when he faced off with those two cops instead of backing down.

The Globe would have you believe there was some other, magical non-violent way this confrontation could have ended. Something super duper the cops could have done if only they weren't racists, if only the System wasn't racist and eeeeevile and stacked against this poor young man. This is a heinous lie. Those cops did every single thing they could to keep this imbecile alive, and frankly I don't think he deserved it.

It p1sses me off in the extreme that the Globe and Mail thinks I am stupid enough to fall for this crap. This is why I do not read the Globe or go to their web site.

As for Daddy Dearest, way to go on the role modeling, awesome job man. I suppose he would feel better if his son had knifed one of the cops and the other one had shot sonny boy in the head. Good luck with the lawsuit buddy, and if they find for the plaintiff I'm going to up my contribution to the CPC.

Leftard ideology is responsible for the sorry life this young man led. Cradle to grave welfare, instilling a victim mentality into our youth vis-a-vis education and propaganda. Lack of accountability via the Young Offenders act etc. He's just another victim of socialist's policies, keeping the poor and addicted poor and addicted for decades. The only way to break the victim mentality mindset is to hold people accountable for their actions, many non-native kids have been raised by acholic parents yet they don't follow that path. Accountability, responsibility and understanding there are consequences for one's actions is the only way to break the cycle. Patting irresponsible parents on the head and saying "There their dear it's not your fault" it's the cops, the government and the conservatives policies at fault.

At some point the socialist left have to accept responsibility for the damage they've done to Canadian Society as a whole.

The Leftists and their buddies on MSM have a picture to paint, they have no problem leaving out the nasty bits which are most RELEVANT to the whole story.

Truth in reporting? Forget it.

First, in my med school days when I worked part time at the city morgue, I can remember admitting a police officer who had died from a single knife wound to the groin, below the area protected by BA. So, a knife is not to be sneered at, TV cop shows notwithstanding.
Second, the cops have a job to do. If the way to evade the police is to escalate the violence, the goons will soon escalate the violence at the drop of a hat. They talk to each other. It's not like they hold formal conferences, but the word spreads. So, the police have to apprehend the goons.
The taser may well be overused or used inappropriately in some situations, and part of the problem may relate to a tendency to see the taser as a sub-lethal firearm vs a qualitatively different weapon. The result may be a tendency to aim for the centre of visible mass (firearm) usually the chest, therefore greatest potential for cardiac dysrhythmias vs aiming for the abdomen, buttocks or back when possible. This situation would appear to be one in which it was appropriate to use the taser, and given the choice I'd sure prefer to be tasered vs shot. Maybe automatic defibrillator packs should accompany the tasers. Ideally they'd be in every patrol car anyway.
The cops have spouses and families too. I've met the occasional hard nose, but most of them have been unfailingly polite and professional. I'd like them to make it home safely to their loved ones at the end of their shift. And I've yet to treat anyone in the trauma bay suffering from a ticket wound.
The one character in this situation for whom I have the least sympathy is the dad. This useless POS failed to meet even the most basic responsibilities of parenting or adulthood and left his son a void which he attempted to fill with booze, drugs and violence. Maybe he would have gone that way anyway, but if the dad wants someone on whom to vent his frustrations he should look in the mirror. It's far too common to see relatives who are inclined to do more for the deceased in death than they were ever prepared to do in life simply to assuage their own guilt. The selfishness never ends.

So Minchin plans to sue! Maher Arar was reportedly paid $11.5 million of Canadian taxpayers’ money for alleged acts committed in a foreign nation by agents of a foreign government. No wonder every Canadian with a grievance expects to receive compensation for acts committed here by Canadian police regardless of fault.

DrDave, I agree with you about deploying the TASER to the back, buttocks, or abdomen wherever possible, and for that matter, I agree with every word you said.

Also, the suggestion to have automatic defibrillator packs present where TASERs are used is a great one. Do you know if this is under active consideration? I assume you do. If not, you should make the suggestion in a formal way, because it's a good one.

F. Packer, the Ahar and Langan cases are not the same. It's ignorant or disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

In case it happens to be mere ignorance on your part, which is more easily forgivable, the Canadian government was deemed by the courts to be culpable because of information the RCMP shared inappropriately with the US.

Well cry me a frikkin' river, eh. I see there were a hell of a lot of you at the scene making determinations as to the proper course of action. Unless you were there it is rather pointless to second guess the cops and that includes you ET. Are tazers being used too much? Probably so as in the "Don't taze me bro" incident where the female cop was too lazy to use proper force to subdue the grandstander but a lot of times a tazer is less of a lethal weapon than a gun. And can you imagine the outcry if a Free Press photog got a picture of a cop with baton raised against a (knife wielding) perp?

Another case in point: Calgary cop responds to a call of an aggressive drunk on a doorstep of relatives. Dude was known to be trouble and the cop ends up being knifed before he manages to shoot the drunk. Guess who is first in line to accuse the cop of excessive force, murder etc? Yep the family that called the cops in the first place because they didn't want to take care of their own kin. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, the race card was the first thing pulled out.

There may be lazy cops, bad cops and soso cops but overall I'd give them the benefit of the doubt over grieving relatives.

ET said (if it is ET anyway): "I disagree; I think that the taser is overused by police. The fact is - it IS a lethal weapon. The probability of death from its use is not rare but frequent enough that its use should only be in the most extreme cases. I don't think that this was one of those cases."

I hear this kind of thing often from highly educated people. They always think there's some super duper method that police have to handle these situations, and when somebody dies its because the cops didn't use it.

Clearly, one of the problems with universities is that they make you think you know things when you actually don't. The use of violence is one of those areas where people tend to think they know things.

ET, violence is like higher mathematics. If you haven't studied it and used it yourself, you can't possibly know anything about it.

Somebody above mentioned that a knife is as dangerous as a gun inside 21 feet. That's a true statement. But if you haven't actually done the experiment yourself, it seems completely unreasonable.

Try this. Arm a colleague with a pink highlighter, arm yourself with a squirt gun and have them run at you. They get to "stab" you with the highlighter until you squirt them.

You will find you're going to get a lot of marks on you until the person starts from more than about 30 feet. If you have to draw from the waistband it makes it much harder.

Now consider a related fact. The mighty pistol is actually fairly WORTHLESS in a fight. You have three pistol targets that will stop a man instantly: the brain, the heart and the spinal cord. Only the spinal cord is guaranteed, the brain and the heart are only "most of the time" propositions, kind of like the taser in reverse. Hit a target pretty much anywhere else and they not only won't die, they won't even slow down.

I can attest to this. I have personally treated patients (that's plural, as in more than one) who survived multiple pistol shots in fights. I had one who took the first round from the front through the liver, next one through the neck as he turned and the last one through the proximal end of the fibula as he RAN AWAY. Ran for several blocks as he told it. Drugs can be a pretty wonderful thing.

For your advanced lesson, take your squirt gun and try to squirt your colleague in one of those three sure fire targets. Its hard, eh? Like, where IS the spine from a three quarter view, and can my puny 9mm bullet get through all that meat to hit the spine at all?

Now try it with them moving.

Now try it in an alley at night with a freaky teenager armed with a knife, screaming curses at you and moving like a squirrel on crack. Add that you're out of shape from sitting in a cop car 8 hours a day, you haven't been to the range to practice for three months, and your partner is a 120 lb girl who couldn't hit a barn from the inside.

Taser? Cops are brave. I'd have used a shotgun on the stupid b@stard. Its the only way to be sure.

"Now consider a related fact. The mighty pistol is actually fairly WORTHLESS in a fight."

And to further your point, Phantom, a knife is more dangerous within a foot or two. It's relatively easy to deflect a gun at that range before the other person can react.

If you do it right: The key being to do the exact opposite of the instinctive thing and I won't give more details on this forum. Even most police forces teach the exact wrong principle, but standards are changing and this is slowly correcting itself.

Anyway, this goes to strengthen your point about a person being educated in the use of force vs. one who is not. At that range, it's relatively harder to handle a knife. You can't just move the knife out of the field of fire. It can slash or stab from anywhere to your body.

Christoph, I prefer distances of >100 yards myself. I like to see the trouble before it sees me. I'll take any unfair advantage I can get.

I think cops should be issued shotguns with bayonets. Shoot them first, then stick them if they keep coming. Kind of like a boar spear, know what I mean?

That's why they don't let me be a cop, I guess. ~:D

Ron Good,

You must have come from a very sheltered life. I'll bet you have never spent any time on 'the street'. I'll bet you have never been scared for your life at the hands of dangerous people. I'll bet you had a great socialist education. You probably think that continuing to pay ultra high taxes to support that kid, his family, and that ilk in our society it the right thing to do. If so, you are naive and misinformed.

Most, but not all of the societal problems we have now is a direct result of 40 years of liberal social policy and parental permissiveness and/or neglect. The latter is most often for two reasons ... parents want their kids to like them or they let the kids run amok because their lives are too busily centered around themselves. Then there is prolification the one parent household brought to you courtesy of easy divorce, and easy welfare, Again, the state helping families stay fall apart.

In this case, we have merely gotten a glimpse into the daily fare of the low-life trash that has become so prolific in this welfare state.

I feel no sympathy because my government(s) rob me to pay for that crap. Got that? We pay to enable those losers to live like sub humans, then we are supposed to feel sorry for them when they screw up.

My support is with the police who risk their lives daily to try to keep our streets safe from the likes of that dead POS drugged, knife carrying, crazy, brave scum-bag.

If Canadians use the taser more often than other countries it's only because (again) we pay such high extortion to our revenue services that we can afford tasers. Poorer countries simply shoot their miscreants with much cheaper guns.

And Chistoph are some sort of android?

I'm not sure how you draw your conclusions about Ron Good. They could be right, but I'm not seeing it based on the above conversation.

He doesn't appear to be taking a position against the police's use of a TASER in this instance; he is among other things defending the act of picking up aluminium cans (and I have no problem with it; I've probably picked up a few in my life precisely BECAUSE I have spent some time on the street. I've even faced dangerous people).

Anyway, note to Ron Good: It's not Mr. Langan walking 4-5 miles every day that was the problem, nor was it his picking up cans; it was what he was using the money for that was the problem.

I think you'd agree that if an adult including a parent was shown to be using alcohol and illegal drugs with a minor, the Crown would be justified in bringing a charge against the adult. My question to you, Mr. Good, is when an adult admits to using alcohol and illegal drugs with a minor who then goes on do die while using alcohol and/or illegal drugs, why is bringing a charge against the adult not justified?

Isn't it even more justified because of the severe consequence the child suffered?

Something that has always annoyed me about cases such as this is that words of support from the officers' superiors are never spoken. Ignoring political correctness and issuing a simple statement would be the right thing for the Chief of Police or the mayor to do. This statement wouldn't have to be a condemnation of the deceased thug. Something to the effect of "If you threaten a police officer with a weapon and don't drop it when ordered to do so, you will be tasered or shot. End of story. Now conduct yourselves accordingly."

I think that encourages circling the wagon too much, biff. I believe calling for an investigation as a matter of course is the best policy, then issuing statements only after all the facts have been analyzed.

Yet I see your point and worded slightly differently I might agree. I'd say something along the lines of:

"This case will be investigated thoroughly and impartially to find out what happened. At the same time, it's important for the public to realize if they are given a lawful order by the police, they must obey it because we have a duty to enforce the law, and to ensure the safety of both the public and our own officers. A person armed with a weapon may be disarmed by the police using any force necessary and sometimes the consequences will be tragic."

I'm with Biff. Threaten a cop with a weapon, they shoot you. End of story.

In fact, I'll go one further and include the armed citizen along with the cop. Threaten -anybody- with a weapon, they shoot you six times, reload and shoot you six more times.

Why should cops be the only ones allowed to shoot back?

Phantom,

My guess is that there are probably more people able and willing to shoot back if necessary, but they are in violation of the laws of Canada regarding self-defense and/or carrying a concealed weapon. Those are the folks who avoid confrontation, but subscribe to the Tarantino rule "it's batter to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have one". Therefore they are less likely to even have to shoot back, but are able to do so.

Most people are law abiding and don't want trouble. I fail to see why the state chooses to 'declaw' them. Those are also folks would be available to save a live and perhaps even the life of policeman.

We live in scary times with druggies and street punks, and B&E boys everywhere. It's a natural progression that people with a realistic view of what is, will do what they need to do to protect themselves and their loved ones.

Obviously, I have no idea what those stats might be, but self-preservation is a basic human predisposition. In Canada you are much better facing some sort of charges from the state, than a life-threatening situation from a crazy person.

We lack decent self-defense laws in Canada and that is unfortunate because Canadians risk, becoming criminalized for merely employing what should be a human right.

I can only imagine how much more victimization there would be in the USA if so many states had not passed the right to carry. They also have the good sense to allow self-defense as a legitimate option. I have read many of those stats and without exception, there is less violent crime in the states where good citizens have the right to defend themselves.

Lefties are unable to learn that new/old trick.

JohnV:

I was fortunate to have terrific parents--it's probably because of them I'm still alive, and that I didn't make even worse choices, Still, due to my own poor choices, I spent well enough time on the streets, in much rougher places than you obviously imagine. I've been homeless, I know exactly what it's like to be very, very hungry, to feel very, very hopeless--and pointless, and I know exactly what it's like to have my life seriously threatened with both a knife and a gun.

I don't have a left-wing bone in my body. I don't think the police did anything wrong in this situation and I have at least as much sympathy for the unfortunate officers who have to have this in their memories than I have for the father--but I have some sympathy for him, too.

I generally agree with this: "Most, but not all of the societal problems we have now is a direct result of 40 years of liberal social policy and parental permissiveness and/or neglect that you wrote. Except I think our stupid drug laws have caused more problems than they've solved, too.

As for: "I feel no sympathy because my government(s)rob me to pay for that crap, well, I feel sympathy *even though* the governments rob me to pay for that crap.

Christoph: You ask: "My question to you, Mr. Good, is when an adult admits to using alcohol and illegal drugs with a minor who then goes on do die while using alcohol and/or illegal drugs, why is bringing a charge against the adult not justified?

I never said it wasn't justified--I just don't think it will help; plain old reality seems to be exacting a terrible and unfortunately perfect consequence to Mr. Minchin, doesn't it. And 17 is plenty old enough/adult enough to know that keeping the knife in your hands when the police tell you to drop it will have severe consequences.

I'm solidly on the side of the police in this instance.

As for the tin can thing: too many times I've seen people insult and make fun of down-and-outers picking up cans to support their addictions and/or just to make their way through another day. But every time I see someone doing that instead of stealing or just giving up, I respect the fact that these poor folks are still trying to make their way honestly, with work. Addicted or not, I will never disrespect that.

JohnV: I agree with everything you wrote about citizen self-defence.

Ron,

It's nice to know that we can agree on most things.

Copy your last, John V.

John V and Christoph: Lots of common ground.

Ron, I understand what you're saying emotionally; it doesn't make any sense logically.

Take the example of a reckless driver. They get a ticket or charge, even though the driver may feel it's not a big deal.

If a reckless driver causes someone to die, they feel terrible and guilty if they have any decency. Do the police and prosecutor say, "Don't worry 'bout it. The other person died so we'll just forget about it."

?

I think not.

The fact is Mr. Minchin's doing illegal drugs and alcohol with his minor son can reasonably have been seen to have contributed to the delinquency which cost his son's life.

Mr. Minchin has admitted to a crime and he should be charged for it. Parents cannot legally in Canada smoke marijuana with their children.

The fact is Mr. Minchin's doing illegal drugs and alcohol with his minor son can reasonably have been seen to have contributed to the delinquency which cost his son's life.

Mr. Minchin has admitted to a crime and he should be charged for it. Parents cannot legally in Canada smoke marijuana with their children.

Understood. You have a point especially given the context of Mr Minchin's obvious quite general neglect of his son.

I can just see lefty social workers, however, with their penchant for over-regulating everything, bringing charges on responsible parents who, for example, share a glass of wine with the kids at Christmas or something, and bringing the charges just because they can.

"...will always cherish the thought of the day they spent together when the Grey Cup was last in Winnipeg. Mr. Minchin scalped half a dozen tickets and then went into the stadium to watch the game with his son. They smoked joints and drank beers at halftime, he said."

That was November 19, 2006. I don't know if Michael Langan was 15 at the time, or possibly had recently turned 16. Assuming this at least somewhat public smoking of joints and drinking of beers was the first time they had done this together, which is something I doubt.

Anyway, his son was young and the dad is smoking dope with him at halftime in 2006. Now the boy's dead on what his dad believes was an alcohol and drug-fueled rampage, which he says makes his son "brave" and "crazy".

I'm a prosecutor in the US. I work with cops nearly every day. From what I can gather on here, it DOES sound like Canadian police over-use their tasers. If this happened in my county, it wouldn't have been "accidental death by TASER": it would've been intentional death by multiple gunshots to the head, and rightly so.

Dave J, is there a case for prosecuting the father? Would you bring it or not?

Dave J,
Your country made such a mush of the law that just about anything is excusable. Your law is so screwed up by the decision of you SC that a normal person does not know whether they are coming of going. They could be charged and be in jail in no time flat or if you have enough cash on hand you are free, matters none how many you’ve killed.
A prosecutor in your country is a lawyer, which should say something. Here they are commonly referred to as the bottom feeders, this elevates them somewhat.

How nice: an entire family of losers.
Tase. Them. All.

from their ivory towers, the well educated, understand 'street smarts" to mena, to be able to read a road map

in the "real" world, "street smarts" means knowing how to stay alive under adverse conditions

Lev,
That has to be the biggest waste of words on the post I've seen.
Dave J. offered a fair and reasonable comment to the topic and you turn it into some anti-US rant.

Is the US system perfect? Nope.

Is the Canadian system perfect? Hellllll no!

To claim some kind of moral superiority is ridiculous.
If our system is so great, why do we spend so much time tearing big steaming holes in it?

Lev, I said "my county," not "my country." I'm not pretending to say that's what would happen everywhere in the US. I have no idea, though I can say I expect different places differ widely from each other.

The rest of your comments are just plain incoherent: I honestly and seriously have no idea WTF you're talking about.

Nowhere in the post is a claim of superiority of anyone or anything.
In fact the constitution of the US is most excellent document created for the protection of population from the lawyers, you may note how they, the lawyers, try to twist and interpret it constantly to suit their purpose of the moment.
Dave J though, claims superiority of knowledge in the use of taser equipment.
It is understandable that he does not understand simple sentences that can’t be construed as to have other than stated meaning, he, after all is a lawyer. If claim of ignorance suits your purpose, go ahead, knock yourself silly.

Wow Lev,
If that was your attempt to clarify your position, I'm afraid you were not particularly successful.

My point was, seeing as our system is a screwed up mess, it is really hypocritical for any of us to criticize the US system.

You seem to have a real problem with lawyers. Any evidence to back up your claims, or is it just your expert opinion?

1) there are many cases where the police use tasers where they shouldn't.

2) this was sure as hell not one of them.

This kid may not have had a chance in life due to the useless degenerate that leftards love to coddle and support but a cop shouldn't have to risk death to take down a drug-addled psycho criminal just because he had bad parents.

You don't drop the knife, the cops drop you. You die? You chose and Darwin weeds the gene pool.

Lev, I don't claim any "superiority of knowledge" about tasers other than from the cops I know, all of whom have had to BE tasered themselves as part of their training, and who are both likely and I would contend justified in meeting the threat of lethal force in kind rather than having to tie their hands behind their backs. We've lost two officers in the line of duty in the past year (both of whom I knew, though not as well as I wish I had) and had another in the hospital only pull through by some kind of miracle. You pull a weapon on law enforcement and you are ASKING for them to choose between your life or theirs.

"...the constitution of the US is most excellent document created for the protection of population from the lawyers..."

Need I go into detail how about just how many of the Framers of the US Constitution were lawyers themselves? James Madison, the principal architect of the Constitution, did not draft this brilliant document to "protect people from lawyers," but to create a national government that could be more effective than the impotent Articles of Confederation without endangering the liberty of individuals or the self-government of the several states. Before I was a prosecutor, I worked on the staff of the judiciary committee of a state legislature, so I will happily debate the Constitution line by line and word by word with anyone, though I hesitate to invite a battle of wits with the so obviously unarmed. Ironically, it does sound as though you are yourself asking to bring a knife to a gunfight.