You know I think there is still space for a few more stars in the jack of the red white and blue flag they have down here. there are three provinces between Ontario and British Columbia that might find that they have a lot in common with folks in the U.S. Somehow I don't think anyone would refuse a new "domestic" supply of oil either.

Ah yes, now the ex-mayor of Thunder Bay Ontario shows his true colours as a socialist. Stay at the trough Ken, you're half way to a life's pension in three years.

There has been a lot of effort, I've noticed, over the last few weeks, to attempt to come up with an accurate name for the Liberals' so-called environmental plan, which it has become clear is not about the environment, rather, it is about statist welfare socialism. In that regard may I suggest, simply, that the current snake-oil the Liberals are attempting to sell us be now called: The Red Shift?

If they do get elected, and I think they might because of Ontario, it will be the end of Canada as we know it. Let's hear it for the Republic of Western Canada!

Wow...this was their plan all along. I think we know what is to be made greener alright!

Should a solid rift develop between East and West, I would see the northern territories choosing to join the West. I think they'll take cheap, reliable warmth/life over unreliable, expensive, and unproven in a second.

This will only assure the the less-motivate will remain unmotivated.

wealthier Canadians are not simply fortunate, (lucky) they work harder, smarter, take risks and invest. It's called deferred gratification and financial planning and it worked for me on a less than high income. I do NOT want to pay for the support of Canadians who are not pulling their weight or have expectations beyond their ability to produce.

Half the poor people in Canada are poor because they have gone through one or more divorces or have not chosen and prepared for a career path that will get them where they wish to be.

This Green Shit tax is looking more like a tax on the smart to subsidize the stupid. This is not the Canada I wan to live in. I think the West had better prepare to get out. And I don't care about trying the planet from it's natural cycles either.

If that little shit Dion and his pack of tax thieves makes it into power it will be time!

This will only assure the the less-motivate will remain unmotivated.

wealthier Canadians are not simply fortunate, (lucky) they work harder, smarter, take risks and invest. It's called deferred gratification and financial planning and it worked for me on a less than high income. I do NOT want to pay for the support of Canadians who are not pulling their weight or have expectations beyond their ability to produce.

Half the poor people in Canada are poor because they have gone through one or more divorces or have not chosen and prepared for a career path that will get them where they wish to be.

This Green Shit tax is looking more like a tax on the smart to subsidize the stupid. This is not the Canada I wan to live in. I think the West had better prepare to get out. And I don't care about trying to save the planet from it's natural cycles either.

If that little shit Dion and his pack of tax thieves makes it into power it will be time!

"Anti-poverty programs" never do anything to alleviate poverty, they only make it worse. To really fight poverty, you need capitalism.

First off this PHD, thats piled higher and deeper for anyone who knows these clowns, is not in power thank God. Everyone is getting all humped up over the idiot Dions green shift, big deal, I hope this doofus gets in so we here in Alberta can start the ball rolling to separate, we'll take Harper and start the republic of Western Canada, we will be the richest most innovative hard working country on the planet once we get these welfare bums from the east off our backs, have you people no pride to believe it is better to take the wealth from the hard work of others so you can sit on welfare, smoke dope and shoot at each other in Toronto. You people suck. We here in Alberta are getting a little sick of sending the rest of Canada 20 billion a year and getting shit on by you inbred Ontario losers that vote liberal. Just stick to whining and stop stealing, you can't do both at the same time.

Should a solid rift develop between East and West, I would see the northern territories choosing to join the West.

With the polar bears and penguins attacking from the north due to their obliterated habitat, they'll have no choice but to move west. If they go east the puffins might get them.

I have two questions for you, Bartinsky. (1) What about the Ontarians who agree with the Albertans you are praising? (2) What about the Albertans who agree with the Ontarians you are denigrating?

Vit, many of the Ontarians who agree have already relocated into Alberta. Many more will if current trends continue for both provinces. There are some examples of the second, but Albertans don't seem to be afraid to say " suck it up, grow up, stop blaming everyone else, and take RESPONSIBILITY".

I denigrated the Ontario people who vote liberal vitruvius. I happen to have been in business for 34 years here in Alberta, and I remember all to well the aftermath of the NEP, I very nearly lost my entire ranch and construction business, its is no fun to go from flat out work to waiting for the phone to ring. Liberals are the same anywhere in the country, they think they deserve a piece of my hard work and that is bull. Ever hung off a monkey board in 30 below with a wind blowing, that is not izzy money, and I will denigrate any one that votes for these losers because an uninformed vote by an idiot cancels my informed vote.

the LPC have always been all about divide and conquer. Pitting one part of the country against the other works great when you own the newspapers. But we aren't reading news in the newspapers anymore

Vit try red shaft.

Ah, well, Bartinsky, I happen to have been in business here in Alberta for 36 years, and once in '86 I waited for six months for the phone to ring too (eventually it did) so let me just say that it's a pleasure to have shared this space with you, old timer.

Now to Pete, part (2) of my questions to Bartinsky remains unanswered by your response, Pete, what about the Albertans who agree with the Ontarians Bartinsky was denigrating? Some, you say? What about the Edmonton Journal? What about the public sector unions? I guess I just don't think that it is as simple as you seem to think (or at least as I so think you think), that's all I'm sayin'.

But of course it isn't. If it was simple, like F=ma, we would have all agreed on it and moved on. But we haven't. We're still here. Yet still life goes on, or not if by some chance you just died while reading this sentence.

There's a lot that's wrong with this.

Here's what I wrote on my site:

Dion really is a Marxist -- and a dishonest one, too. But that's nothing new. It's just that we now have definitive proof – provided by a Liberal!

[...]

Boshcoff revealed the real – communist – truth behind Dion's Green Shift program, which he calls "the most aggressive anti-poverty program in 40 years".

Even environmentalists saw right through the scam that the Green Shift program is when they noted that there were no discernible environmental benefits. Instead, it's all about taking money from those who work their fingers to the bone and handing it to the lazy laggards (primarily those in Ontario).

When Dion was environment minister in a previous Liberal government, he didn't care about the environment, global warming or the Kyoto agreement at all. According to his own colleagues in cabinet at the time, he "could not have cared less" about these issues. He still doesn't care; for him, it's all about his favourite area of study: Marxism.

And Dion is not in this "fight" alone – he's getting some help from the "woman by his side".

Something on Steve Janke's blog caught my eye and reminded me to write this post that I have been meaning to write for some time now.

Steve writes:

[...] Mrs Harper (who unlike Stephane Dion's wife Janine Krieber, does not pretend to be a de facto party spokesperson) [...]

This is why voters should pay closer attention to Janine, because her ideology, which she doubtless feeds her husband, could be quite controversial – and if Stéphane, who has devoted most of his scholarly endeavours to the study of Marxism in all its forms, were ever to become prime minister, and Janine decided to pull a Hillary and actually take on an official role in her husband's government, this could have disastrous consequences for the country.

Her family background is rooted in Austria and Austrian socialism, which, unlike North-American socialism, is nothing short of being pure communism. Arnold Schwarzenegger once admitted that getting away from those commies in Austria was one of his main reasons for emigrating to America.

Let's quote a professor of political thought and philosophy at the University of Vienna (delivered during one of his lectures many years ago):

Socialism in this country [Austria] is the same as communism. Let's be clear about that.

One only needs to look at some recent examples. The current head of government in Austria, a socialist, would travel to Moscow when it was still the Soviet Union to literally kiss the "sacred ground of communism". And only a few months ago, one of his ministers publicly said that he would love for Austria to become exactly like Cuba, because, to him, Cuba was the closest thing to heaven on earth.

In other words, with the Stéphane and Janine team at 24 Sussex Drive, Canada could soon become Canuba. Surely, this is not what the majority of Canadians want.

Protecting the environment and trying to halt or even reverse global warming is one thing; turning Canada into a communist state is quite another and totally unacceptable. Those in Eastern and Central Canada who have always relied on handouts and welfare should be forced to work – workfare, not welfare. Stealing money from those who work for a living and handing it to lazy bums is what Dion has in mind – let him try, but his attempt will break up this country's unity once and for all, and that's not a threat but a promise.

As one commenter (Peter) wrote here earlier, let's hear it for the Republic of Western Canada!

For what it's worth, I'd prefer a PM with a Ph.D in philosophy rather than one with the same degree in "sociology".

I find it a bit disturbing that people can get degrees in "policy" these days. WTF is that, pre-school for life-long government or NGO work?

I think you greedy western types should just relax.

He only wants to confiscate HALF of your izzy moneys.

Do you folks not realize that there still is no free daycare for Ontario and Quebec's university professors?

Do you folks not understand that their is a whole generation of librano offspring waiting in the wings for their "gov't job 4 life"?

Do you folks not want to fund every left wing artist, musician and activist?

Harper has handcuffed any future librano gov't with is tax cuts. This is the punishment that you folks are going to get for allowing this to happen.

On behalf of all of the trough wallowing pigs in central Canada, I would like to thank you in advance for your izzy moneys.

I recall a discussion a few months ago suggesting that the Libs would appeal to Dippers for swing votes in any upcoming election.
Obviously that is where they are heading.Boschoff's riding would be one that this policy would be music to many ears.

Providing easy wealth to those who have not earned it is not an anti-poverty campaign; it is a campaign to generate and perpetuate poverty.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/canada_net_censorship.html

Kelly--soon newspapers will be all we have to read!

you know, if it wasn't for self respect I'd be almost tempted to pack it all in and get in line for all that free izzy monies. Save a govnent teat fer me, eh. I'm tired of being the middle class pay for all taxpayer. Obviously in Dijon's world if you work hard you shall be rewarded with the shaft although in this case it is green.

Having been a true blue Western Canadian since the NEP days it's nice to see more expressing their view that the West should leave. The ELB's [eastern liberal bastards/bitches] are not going to change any time soon so change will have to come from the West. I am tired of looking under rocks and behind us all the time for a future. I say give the ELB's unhindered access to exploring and curing their and worlds ills, you don't need the West to slow you down. Go for it and let the West do our thing. I wish you all the best with your worldly visions of right and wrong and the now unhindered ability to purge all Canadian wrongs of the past. Let the political cleansing start.

I emailed idiot boy and thanked him for being dumb enough to brag about the greenshift scam. I urge you to do the same.

Liberal "greenwashing" is Liberal money-laundering.
Ad$Cam is the Liberal prototype; a trial run.
Citoyen Dion's Green Shaft would make Ad$Cam look like peanuts.
As Jeancula Chretien would say, Whad's a cubble billion dollars?
Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

"Oops: Liberal MP Ken Boshcoff admits to Liberal greenwashing

Liberal MP Ken Boshcoff has let the cat out of the bag. Apparently Stephane Dion's carbon tax program is just a big vacuum designed to suck money out of Alberta, pass it through Liberal government social programs, and end up in the pockets of whomever the Liberals deem worthy of receiving the cash.

The whole "environmental" thing is just words slapped on to make the tax grab more palatable. That's called "greenwashing".

You know, this just makes Jennifer Wright's argument that her company is being damaged by the Liberals lifting the name "Green Shift" all the more compelling."
http://stevejanke.com/archives/268380.php

How about the Red Shift: Librano Red and Commie Red?

"I'm tired of being the middle class pay for all taxpayer."

Your job, my friend, like all middle-class folks anywhere, is to shut up and pay your taxes.

Do any of you recall how H.L. Mencken's viewed elections?

"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods."

Dion reflects those Canadian busybody politicos who just can't seem to leave well enough alone.

I believe Harper has figured it out when it comes to Alberta's current good fortune: stay out of the way, sit back, and the federal revenues will come rolling in all by themselves.

And they are rolling in - so every Canadian benefits.

If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

Let's do some math. Number of media outlets reporting Conservative MP who states opposition to abortion = X. Number of media outlets that report Liberal MP who outs marxist tax policy = Y. It doesn't matter what X is, because dividing by Y gives me a divide by zero error.

Sure the LPC cares about Canada - that is why they always, always choose Leaders from .... ?

Dion needs to censure Mr. Boshcoff ASAP as his statement if allowed to stand, torpedoes the Red Graft policy and his chances with many moderates who think Robin Hood social programs are obsolete ideas from another era.

Those same moderates may have been a bit sympathetic to a Carbon Tax program but Mr. Boshcoff's opening the door of the trojan horse will warn them off.

Anyone else notice that there is no branding or reference to the Liberal Party of Canada on Ken Boshcoff's website?

It is indeed the 'Green Shift', understanding 'green' to refer to money. Dion's plan has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the environment. Read it.

There's nothing in it about the environment. No strategies to clean up 'pollution', which term he deliberately misuses because it sounds more evil than the term 'emissions'. No money for the devt of new technology, the new technology which we still don't have. No money to use to provide low cost loans to industries to install these new technologies. Nothing.

Instead, Dion REQUIRES those emissions. He requires a large sum of money. Yearly. So that he can buy votes. With Harper's reduction of the GST and Harper's reduction of corporate and other taxes, Dion needs another source of MONEY to bribe the voters.

Dion isn't going to announce that he'll raise the GST to pay for his bribes. No. That wouldn't get him elected. So, instead he hides his money grab under the guise of nobility and purity. Cleaning up the envt. But..there's NOTHING in his plan that will clean up the envt. Nothing. He needs those emissions to remain high so that he can tax them.

Industrial Companies will leave; they'll go bankrupt; they'll move to China and India. That leaves the non-moving oilsands. He wants that money.

What's he doing with it? Bribing the poor in Eastern Quebec and Ontario. His tax benefits, which really aren't that great, affect those primarily with a total, before tax income of 20,000 to 40,000. For a family of four. Heh.

Then, he's after the vote-rich megacity of Toronto and Montreal and Vancouver, where the people there are far removed from industries and have been brainwashed to feel that The Poor are best looked after with money, money, money from the govt. From your taxes.

As for the stupendous result? Increased costs of everything, including gasoline at the pump. Increased costs of food, clothing, housing, heat, hydro. Everything.

But, to Dion that is irrelevant. He'll be elected. And when Alberta's money runs out? He'll raise the GST again.

Does any of Dion's plan actually reduce or alleviate poverty? No. There are no plans to develop employment infrastructures, no plans to develop transportation and housing infrastructures around industrial devt. Instead, Dion is taxing the middle class (there are no 'rich' people in Canada) to maintain these people at sustenance level.

Does any of Dion's plan actually reduce emissions or pollution? There isn't a single tactic in his plan to help the envt. Nothing.

It's yet another Liberal scam.

All the colours of a true hidden agenda.

Green Shift, Blackmail,Red Spending , Yellow leader.

Looks like we have to get copies of all liberal riding newsletters and mailouts. Seems they have not learned that nothing is secret anymore.
If dion should ever get elected PM, he would have to get his shaft plan thru a budget vote. And what if Alberta and Sask say no, and refuse to take part. What if our companies etc refuse to send Ottawa their carbon money. What if we refuse to by anything mfged in Ont. I am sure all that equipment, huge trucks, parts, pipes, and other needed items can be bought in the USA.
What if we just refuse to participate, while making plans to get out of Canada. Dion could try to take us to court, levy fines, threaten us with what???. What if we start a Just say No to the Shaft org.
Voting for something because of emotion or it feels good does not make a better Canada. We have too many feel good programs now, mostly started by the liberals. However, some things do make one feel good, like knowing khdar will stay in jail as the liberals wanted him to.

BCL says on his blog that Mr. Boshcoff should have kept his mouth shut:

"What he should have said:

***

Get it, Ken? What is written in Thunder Bay is read is Calgary."

http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com/

That now makes three liberals who have put their foot in their mouth over the real purpose of the red shaft. (Turner, Boshcoff and BCL) Who needs friends when you have opponents like these?

"Greenwashing": using the "green" label to siphon taxpayers money into government coffers

Brilliant.

Kate, that term is seperate post worthy. Kudos to Janke (or whoever else came up with it.)

Stephanie Dion is campaigning on a tax hike in the most taxed country in the Western world.

We already pay half our income in taxes. (That's not hyperbole, that's a measurement. Frazer Institute, lefties are encouraged to go look it up.)

Currently, as in right now today, the Ontario economy is juuuuust starting to shed jobs, due to the high Canadian dollar and the anticipated consumer pullback in the States. Anything to do with cars is already toast, other manufacturing will be following shortly. Ontario is on glide path to start -receiving- equalization payments instead of forking them out.

Winter is on the way, and with it will come record high prices for home heating fuel, natural gas and electricity. Going to be a lot of unemployed people wearing two sweaters this December in Ontariariario.

In this environment, Miss Dion is trying to sell a tax grab. Not just any tax grab either, but specifically a tax on FUEL. (That's stuff you burn to keep warm Lefties, ask your mom.) Sheer genius.

With the active and enthusiastic connivance of the Canadian media, I might add. Talk about burning bridges, The Toronto (Red) Star is going to be burning newsprint to stay warm pretty soon.

But I digress.

I think it is entirely possible that even the masses of asses that make up the Toronto population may object to a tax hike at the exact time they are facing job loss, gas heading for two bucks a quart (we're at $5.15 a US gallon today kids!), food price inflation, and heating fuel double or triple what it was last winter. Even a fresh off the boat immigrant with three wives, ten kids and a chicken under his arm is going to have trouble getting behind that plan. Winter is -cold-, eh?

I LOVE Stephanie Dion! Single handed, our Steffie is going to eviscerate and de-bone the Liberal Party right before our eyes, and maybe even destroy their fellow-traveling friends in the media.

Watching Ken Boshcoff lift up the spin-blanked to show the tax-and-spend clockwork underneath is just the cherry on top.

Rage on Ken, rage on Steffie!

Greed Shaft

Someone coined the right phrase above: "red shaft"

Did you all catch the plan's requirements for 'deposits in green accounts'?

Any guesses as to which Canadian financial institution would enjoy the float?

This plan is about moving capital from Western Oil into the coffers of a certain corporation we all know and love, where it can be held on deposit, and leveraged, and loaned.

Nothing else about it makes any sense.

Vitruvius asks: "In that regard may I suggest, simply, that the current snake-oil the Liberals are attempting to sell us be now called: The Red Shift?"

Now, some other wag immediately went with The Red Shaft, but I have to disagree. The Liberals aren't that manly, and they don't have the cojones to be real Communists.

Picture Stephanie Dion at the lake shore wearing an inflatable duck and big, loooong swimming shorts, dipping a toe in the water and shivering. That's the Liberals with Communism. They'd like to go swimming, but they lack the guts to just run right in.

May I suggest The Pink Shift? Its Commie Lite. Same great taste, but less filling!

Just let the Liberal fools keep talking. They are providing great material for CPC to use in the next election. Here is a sample list:

-The center-left leaning in Central Canada, who the Liberals predictably incite feelings of envy and greed over Alberta's prosperity for votes, can be shown that the "'shift’ will transfer wealth from rich to poor" will also negatively affect all of them who are middle income or higher. The amount of money shifted from Ontario middle class pockets to Ottawa's government coffers will be far more than is shifted to them from the Western "big business and oil patch".

-The CPC can also point out to moderate environmentalists the lack of any CO2 reduction targets or as Dion puts it " "I'm confident we will have significant reductions. I'm not telling you specific numbers because you would not trust me,". That quote has got to be the Canadian version of " I'm from the government and I am here to help", as the scariest things a taxpayers can hear. I mean the Liberals have zero credibility on election promise keeping (red book), coming in on budget for costs of big programs (gun registry), and the environment (Kyoto - "didn't get it done").

Canadians concerned about national unity need only to listen to Garth Turner, the architect of the green shift. ""You might not agree with everything the man says, but you have to admire this about him," Turner wrote. "He stood up once to the self-aggrandizing, hostile, me-first, greedy, macho, selfish and balkanizing separatist losers in Quebec."I guess he can do it again in Alberta."
That pretty much explains what they would do to the country if they return, expand separatist sentiment in both Quebec and the West.

The more the Liberals are allowed to babble and rant the better it is for the CPC. They will reveal their party's and the Green Shift plan flaws.

I want to know if there is any organization in place or about to form to do something about this attack on our money, freedom and way of life? I don't mean the Comservative Party of Canada either, they can't do anything for the West because they 1. will never get a majority and 2. even if they do, they will too busy kissing Quebec ass to do do anything about anything anyway.

I want to know if there is any organization that is prepared to really fight to keep Western Canada out of the hands of the Eastern thieves.

Anyone? anyone?

If not, I might have to start something myself. I think we have past the point where our democratic elections have any meaning. This country is not governable in any reasonable fair way. It's a regional situation where the wester regions is the slut that the Easter regions keeps raping.

Enough. I want to know? Who is preparing to fight back?

Or will we continue to simply post smart ass remarks on blogs like this one while we go down the communist tubes.

Dion made it out of Alberta without anyone doing to him what Jesse Jackson wants to do to Obama and the liberals interpreted that as a rousing endorsement of their plan.
Or maybe the whole idea wa to send the poor fool out there into the lion's den with his idiotic plan and his little backpack for defence and give whatever came back a decent burial.
That should have solved the liberals question of what to do with him.
Damn those Albertans and their infernal decency!

Phantom, Vit, et al.

I think I prefer the Watermelon shift better than your suggestions: Green on the surface, pink/red in the middle.

Looks like a big income redistribution program to me and when that happens, all people will (eventually) suffer.

It's called the Watermelon Shift. I get a laugh out of polls where 52% think Dion's plan is a good idea. Never mind they have no idea what's in it, they are just reacting emotionally (and likely prodded by poll question) to do "good" for the environment. Dion cannot get away with this crap in election campaign, where people actually think about politics for a minute or two, every four or five years, then go vote (60% of them that it).

Tories have lots of money to discredit the Watermelon Shift, to explain that we, Canada, need to develop alternative fuel, when oil not used 50 - 100 years from now. Frankly, people's concern for environment ends when it clashes with their wallet. What politician has captured the imagination of the voter with a tax hike (revenue neutral, yeah right)? Joe Clark?

Reality:

- bad policy (tax an externality, then fail to provide funding for solution - developing alternative fuel source
- poor implementation (use it as part of overall socialist tax and spend platform)
- divisive (screw one part of country to benefit another)
- cynical (send money to your constitutents)
- poor party image (bunch of liars, thieves and incompetents, who "lose" $1B, have yet to pay back money they stole from taxpayers or seek contrition, and break promises regularly)
- poor leader (Dion has shown he is out of touch with just about everybody, has very poor judgement, and cannot articulate what he wants for supper)
- poor timing (high fuel prices have already spurred energy technology, and Dion goes after region that spends more "per capita" on energy research than anywhere)
- poor organization (expect, at best, half-hearted effort to get vote out, for a leader they actually want to get rid of)

Oh yeah, it'll be close. NOT. My prediction is Dion will see his Watermelon Tax Shaft Shift is going nowhere, focus on staying out of trouble with Elections Canada for failing to pay his debts. Then he will go to his comfortable place, behind the curtain, until Oct 09. Priceless.

This is an important story but I see nothing at CTV, CBC online. Bourque has it up.
It will have an impact in the east only if the story makes the mainstream news.

I'm probably being a bore with this, but diesel fuel produces less C02 than gasoline.
So why is Dion going to raise the tax on diesel fuel but not on gasoline?

Good find. This has nothing to do with climate and evrything to do with tax and spend with the Liberal Party as middleman to take credit.

Same old same old.

Thought this would make good content for a Conservative ad. It is a good way to hive off the the blue liberals, and there are lots of them.

The end game is a two party system....either the Liberals or the NDP will disappear as a major force

The national post has it up.

I think it should be called exactly what Boshcoff called it: The Most Aggressive Anti-Poverty Plan in 40 Years Plan Or better, The Most Aggressive Wealth Transfer Plan in 40 Years Plan

Anybody remember the communist 5 year plans for economic success? Oh yeah, not really successful...

Besides, naming it after a fruit will only get it votes on Queen St.

stan - it's a scam. If he raised the tax on gasoline, people would see it immediately at the pump and blame him.

The price of gas at the pump will rise astronomically because he's taxing the industrial sources of gas production, he's taxing the delivery of gas etc. These costs of production will all be passed on to the consumer. BUT, the consumer won't see these increased costs, immediately, as due to Dion's tax grab.

Dion can, of course, always blame The Americans.

The thing is, most people won't read Dion's Plan. I'd say that less than 1% of Canadians will read the plan and be stunned that there's NOTHING in it about the environment! Nothing! No strategies for cleaning up the envt; no strategies for enabling our industries to reduce emissions. None.

The plan is all about what he'll do with all that money (slurp, slurp). He'll give money to families of four with before tax incomes of a total of 20,000 !? And to those up to about 40,000. Then..it tapers off to nothing.

He says he'll decrease income taxes by 10 percent!!! Wow. He's lying. A reduction from 15 to 13.5 is 1.5 percent. Not 10 percent. He says he'll reduce corporate taxes to 14%! He doesn't tell us that Harper has reduced them from 22 to 15%.

He's got other 'benefits' such as a 350 child reduction. Big deal.
Oh- and if you live in the north and are faced with higher costs for fuel, you get 150 a year. That's $150 a year. Heh. Dion doesn't give a damn about their votes, does he?

Dion's Scam is a blatant tax-and-run grab. It's a political ploy to get him elected in Ontario, in the megacities and in quebec. He doesn't give a damn about votes elsewhere. His scam is to present this money grab as an environmental issue.

But there's nothing in it to clean up the envt. Nothing. Nothing.

He's found a pool of money that he can grab. This pool is located in Canadian industry. He defines industry as Bad and Polluting. This sets him up as morally superior to industry.
He punishes them for being bad.
He then gives this money to the Poor.

The saint-like image is blinding. The problem is: there's nothing pure or noble about his agenda.

It's pure cynical manipulation and dishonesty. His plan won't do a thing for the envt. Nothing.
His plan won't do a thing about poverty.
His plan has only one goal. Getting him elected.

Andn since most people won't READ his plan and see that the pretence about it being about The Environment is a TOTAL LIE - then, his talk, and the MSM talk..about it's cleaning up the envt..well, people won't know that it's a massive Liberal scam.

Adscam is nothing compared to this Alscam. (Alberta scam).

Akin to what's under the green scum on a pond, Dion's shifty plan is a real hidden agenda.
It's more about grabbing our money than cleaning the air.

Since when did Liberals ever operate their dependency industry/social programs without money grabbing schemes they tell us we can't live without on moral/compassionate grounds?

ET:
"Andn since most people won't READ his plan and see that the pretence about it being about The Environment is a TOTAL LIE - then, his talk, and the MSM talk..about it's cleaning up the envt..well, people won't know that it's a massive Liberal scam."
Therein lies the biggest problem: apathetic voters who have their ears tickled into believing there is a reason to act on the climate, and secondly to have the co-operation of the media feeding them with the Lib plan as 'The Answer'.
I'll be contacting my local MP and the local media...we should hear his 'reaction' to Boschoff's analysis.

I'm Ontarian, and I find the plan to be deliberately and gratuitously harmful to the West. Dion and the Liberals know they are screwing Alberta and Saskatchewan; they're proud of it to the point they are now bragging about it.

It's intentionally divisive, and not only regionally. We know 39% of female tax filers pay zero income tax already; Dion's income tax cut does nothing to help them, they will be stuck paying more for everything from heating to cat food. It eliminates my favourite tax credit, the $1000 working tax credit, and replaces it with one capped at $50000 income, thus taking from workers and giving to "collectors". In many instances it actually favours the rich over the poor.

"Screw" is the perfect word for it, too, notwithstanding the faux outrage by the newly puritan Liberals.

There's one interesting thing that came out of the proposal: their top rate 1% income tax cut is costed at only $600 million a year; that's not very much. Even if it were really $750 million, Harper easily could have chopped it in his first year and would barely have noticed the lost revenue and I'm kinda mad that he didn't. The GST cut, for comparison, was $12 billion, much of it flowing back to non-income tax payers.

The solution?

Population Shift.

Alberta still needs workers, Ontario is losing jobs.

Any Ontarians or Quebecers willing to work for a living, with a 10% provincial flat tax, is always welcome in Alberta.

Let Ontario figure out how to support the leeches they continue to breed ... with their own money.

ET, I agree very few will actually read the plan; but, the Tories will be sure to expose its fraudulent hypocrisy.

The MSM has a real job ahead of them hiding this reality from Canadians. They won't be able to do it. Those days are gone with the advent of the blogosphere, which gets far more readership than the Torstar, Globe and Ottawa Citizen.

Plus, Dion is relatively "popular" because Canadians simply don't know he is some nerdy professor, fresh out of the classroom, with no idea about real life, bleating on about being polite. This from a guy who went negative from day one, mentioning that he wanted to get Harper back to Stornoway so he could "get rid of his overweights."

The only thing this Watermelon Shift Shaft can accomplish is prevent a Harper majority. One the other hand, it could very well result in CPC majority, after Dion's excoriation in an election, flushed out of Liberal friendly town hall meetings (he didn't go the Calgary Stampede as some incompetent scribes say, he went to the Calgary Zoo and talked to Liberals in a totally controlled and contrived environment).

I have yet to meet a single person who thinks Dion's plan is a good idea, not one. OK I'm in the far west, near the Pacific, but that does give a hint of how he will do in Vancouver.

Jack Layton, who has missed many opportunities to capitalize on Grit idiocy, seems to finally be getting it - that people don't change their vote from Tory to NDP (except for 8 burnouts on Saltspring Island), his vote will come from soft Grits.

I hope Dion goes for broke on this one. Then he will likely go down as the one who finally killed the LPC as a political force. It couldn't happen to a nicer political party.

It will be interesting to see if Nova Scotia and Newfoundland will be raising concerns about Stephane Dion's "hidden agenda" remember - unlike 1980, the "oil patch" now includes NS and NL...

And, the other secret that Boshcoff let out of the bag - the Green Shaft has nothing to do with greenhouse gases - it may be a tax plan, it may be a poverty plan, but it's clearly not an environmental plan.

The missing link (pun intended) to the Capuchin monkeys and Yale is probably here...

http://www.som.yale.edu/faculty/keith.chen/articles/NYT%206_5_05.pdf

How can an MP brag of theft?

Oh, silly question, he's a Liberal

Which Canadian poitician is quoted as saying"The federal government is ,essentially,a money-redistributing machine."? Hints,he once owned a turtle he named 'Trotsky' and his wife says he can't change a light bulb without messing up.

"ET, I agree very few will actually read the plan; but, the Tories will be sure to expose its fraudulent hypocrisy."

And thereby continue to be viewed as a 'mean-spirited' gang of running dog capitalists.

It's a hard one to win. Canadians are busy with petty pursuits and don't pay attention. If they understood what economic devastation awaits them with a Liberal government, their heads would explode and they prefer to simply not know.

Ignorance is bliss.

PT Barnham understood humanity.

With growing unemployment in tOntario and labour shortages in Alberta, and soon Sasktchewan, I expect, Go WEST young man, woman and child, even the middle aged and old, would become a new phrase again

The only environment this plan will clean up is my wallet.

Libs SOP: Pander to Quebec and Ontario (Canada), the west can go F itself. Nothing will resurrect the western separation yearnings more that this.

One of my objections is the mixing of objectives.

So, lets accept the premise for a moment, that Carbon Dioxide created in excess is a bad thing. Then taxing it is appropriate, tax something you want less of. It changes its relative price to other options.

So if the original plan was that then turn around a cut taxes by the equivalent amount....don't play freaking robin hood. Carbon Dioxide emitted by the poor is just as harmful as CO2 emitted by the rich, assuming you accept the premise.

Using it as income redistribution allows the "poor" to buy more CO2 emitting stuff. It is self defeating. Sorry I am purist when it comes to matters like this.

So once you see the bastardization you ask why. And the answer is that they want to meet traditional political goals, those of placing the party back at the centre of the handout scheme. I would have had more respect for them if they had done the intellectually consistent thing. They have tainted it as they always do.

They can't help themselves.

The despot cares not that they love him only that they hate each other.

Liebrals a bunch of despots.

There really is nothing new here...the Dion plan really does nothing for the environment, it is simply a tax grab at the expense of the middle class and the oil producing provinces. The liberals pretend as do some of the pollsters that this will not effect gas prices when in fact the Carbon Tax will be passed through on all products. In addition, higher transportation costs will increase the cost of everything we but.
Then as the liberals have always done, this policy creates further division within our confederation. The Liberals in the past have encouraged this division in an effort to win votes elswhere.
As I said...same ol...same ol...just another tax grab and a kick in the you know what for the middle class.

Maybe Ken Boschoff can explain one thing - if high taxes are the way to "benefit low-income Canadians", why do we still have low-income Canadians who need benefiting?

"Maybe Ken Boschoff can explain one thing - if high taxes are the way to "benefit low-income Canadians", why do we still have low-income Canadians who need benefiting?"

A good question to ask any Liberal, since they had 13 years to reduce(end) poverty in Canada, and to quote one of the party's emminent leaders: "Stephane, we didn't get it done."

What has changed that will get it done another time? and why should they be given another period of people's lives to waste?

Red, green, yellow, brown, and a pot of gold for Quetario, why not call it the Rainbow Shift?

Ontarians would do well to remember that they are a manufacturing province.

Their auto industry is on the skids. Do they really want to do the same to the manufacturers of pipe, pumps, valves, cable and a thousand other manufactured items that they now provide to the oil patch?

I emailed idiot boy and thanked him for being dumb enough to brag about the greenshift scam. I urge you to do the same

Morgan, I did just that. It felt great too!

The greatest anti-poverty program of the past 40 years? It's called the "Alberta oil sands". It's been a real Godsend to Newfoundland.
Probably to depressed places all across Canada.

And Stephane Dion wants to tax it out of existence.

ET, do look at the 'Green Investment Account'... the GIA.

Guess where much of the GIAs will be on deposit? Huge amounts of capital moved into FI's. No GHG reduced, because, heh, we don't trust him. Big wadges of carbony cash, ready to leverage and lend.

This is a huge, huge scam, I agree 100% ET. It's so audacious a scam that many are reluctant to admit it is a but a scam.

Canadians do not trust him. Correct. And they do not trust the party of Shawiniscam, Adscam, RegistryScam, Reloscam, HRScam, and now this, CO2Scam.

Skip: They could have had 13 billion years to end poverty and it wouldn't have worked.

People always have and always will make stupid decisions about their lives that will, if not guarantee life-long poverty, sure make it more likely. Throwing more benefits their way won't end anything except personal responsibility and consequences, the two things that will reduce poverty.

This is a ploy to buy votes from those who reject the very things that will better their lives in favour of Canadian-style Hope! and Change!.

Politicians the Western world over have been "fighting poverty" for 50 years. Time to call the end of the experiment and admit failure.

Kathryn, GHope and change in deed. Yes, my change out of my pockets.

John Tory, the Ontario Conservative leader, committed political suicide with his idiotic idea to fund religious schools. Ontarians saw this as funding muslim schools and killed him at the poles. McSquinty didn't have to do anything just hammer away on this one thing. Conservative voters stayed away and the strong Liberal vote normally present here carried the day for these lying crooks.

If Harper, who is a really sharp guy, focuses on just the heavy personal cost to all Canadians of De Yawn's tax even all but the hard core Liberal voter will vote with their wallet. People are seeing the ever-faster US slide and are getting frightened and I believe will side with Harper's solid economic plan rather than another socialist bait and switch as ET eloquently wrote.

If not I am moving west to the new Republic.

Kathryn, People always have --- an excellent comment and something I have harped about for years, well said.

I heard Boshkoff's exchange with Adler. It must have been hubris that prompted him to accept the interview? The dialogue was almost over before Boshkoff realized Adler had picked his lock. He was completely over matched. He stammered and stuttered in an attempt to make his point but....without results. I think he is just another light weight MP with the inability to understand basic economics. All of Canada benefits directly from oil activity in AB. Where do you think all the support industry comes from? We have no steel plants in the west. That stuff and all the valves not to mention the labour force comes from the east. If you want to choke the chicken that lays those eggs, go ahead. Don't be too tough on Boshkoff, its beyond him.

I heard Boshkoff's exchange with Adler. It must have been hubris that prompted him to accept the interview? The dialogue was almost over before Boshkoff realized Adler had picked his lock. He was completely over matched. He stammered and stuttered in an attempt to make his point but....without results. I think he is just another light weight MP with the inability to understand basic economics. All of Canada benefits directly from oil activity in AB. Where do you think all the support industry comes from? We have no steel plants in the west. That stuff and all the valves not to mention the labour force comes from the east. If you want to choke the chicken that lays those eggs, go ahead. Don't be too tough on Boshkoff, its beyond him.

There will be no plan because the second he tries it Alberta will be gone for good. Wave goodbye to the 15 billion. I think both B.C. with Saskatchewan would be following fast. So no money there either.

Any Alberta government who accepted this cuckoo’s egg of Marxism would be hounded out of here . Its happen several times in our history. From affairs in a more puritanical time ,to gag laws imposed on the provincial media.

The Weird ones lost every time. I think its about culling time again. Harry..er Ed will find this out, as soon as a real Albertan patriot steps up to the plate with a viable platform.

I personally would rather have 2 elected American senators looking after our business. Ours of course except one are not. Than the Ottawa gang who never shoots straight. Who needs just only representation by population, creating the power of one Province over ALL the others. As soon as they end up in that town they become the embodiment of the very slime they had despised with all its hypocrisy.
They adopt the culture of vultures.

It would have been nice to do it Texas style. Have our own Republic for a few years than come into the Union with some punch, but hey better to start fast than be mugged. By the way Strong & Free should be the motto on our licenses. Its was ours by choice when we became a Province. Screw the leftists & other tards who live in fairyland. The whole lot of em are nuts to even argue about it.
The Red Shift?

Posted by: Vitruvius

Too funny & clever at that.

P.S. Anyone refering to me please use RD. I am not into typing torture. Glad I remembered this time, been meaning to say this for a while now.

Just listened to Boshcoff's interview with Adler. He argued that oil patch must do its fair share, ie, pay for pollution and emissions it causes. Hmm, what about cars in Toronto spewing CO and CO2? When will they do their fair share (over and above existing taxes because, well, our emissions, gasp, are still rising)? Who is he trying to kid here?

The days when Liberals could say the stupidest things and get away with it (I put salt on my steak) are long gone, though the MSM will surely give him and Dion a pass on this one.

It doesn't matter. Dion's harebrained vote buying scheme will never see the light of day. This dog won't hunt, and will be euthanized during next election campaign

One thing is certian, this Dion fellow sure makes Mrs. Cretien look stupid because it was her that prompted old theiving Jean to recruit this limp wristed poopsie after seeing him lose on French Canadas weakest link or some such show. Mrs. Cretin was impressed with Stephan, but then her standards were not that high as evidenced in crooked Jeans selection as husband.

Adler calmly nails KB to the cross in the interview. And apparently Dion hasn't disagreed with KB according to KB - as he hasn't done with GT.

oops - hit post by mistake.

Listening to KB in the adler interview makes my blood boil. talking about how the oilpatch has the capacity to give money to other areas etc.

and one word sums up KB - Naive

Perhaps it also describes a large percentage of LP and NDP supporters...

In addition to throwing out Western Canada for the impoverished Easterners, Mr. Boshcoff and the Green Shift also kills the economy of his local constituents. Thunder Bay survives on the holy trinity of Western wheat (shipped from Prairie farmers under the control of Wheat Marketing Boards to ensure Paul Martin's Canada Steamship Lines remain fully laden and profitable), the timber industry (already reeling from usury power costs caused by poor central planning from Ontario and dwindling markets)and mining (suffering from restricted access, environmental zealotry, government pandering to aboriginal greed).

Higher energy costs driven up even further by the Green Shift will be the final blow to the natural resource industry, the financial backbone of Thunder Bay's and our country's economy and the funder of Canada's vaunted social programs.

So don't feel so alone Western Canada, some of us see the big picture.

It is clear that what Dion is wont to do, is to destroy Alberta, and in the process nationalize the economic engine of the country.
Canadians should be weary of the narrative that Dion is spreading like manure.
An interesting exercise would be to see what the welfare conditions in Boshcoff’s riding are.
If there are a lot of people that collect welfare and other such largesse, he clearly is playing to them and wants to freeload on the back of actual working people of this country.
Can’t tell, the statistics Canada is in maintenance mode at this time.
The real solution to the welfare or unemployment would be to move to Alberta or Saskatchewan to get a real and well paying job. Of course it requires people to get off their ass and actually do something about their current situation. Though if you have an MP that promises you free money, you may not be all that eager to get up and go.
Ken Boshcoff's, in this situation is a bloody low life and does not qualify to be nowhere near the parliament of Canada.

Kin knowed da grinchiff. Da moneys going to liprl bankings haccount, han doze wisterbee pipples ploluting nod so mush. Da grenshaf hiz peeair ant jenes dream come true.

The Dion Liberal Green Shift is a declaration of ECONOMIC WAR on Western Canada ... plain and simple.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/stevekog/LibranosBack.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQGb2adHCd8

Pork

The Liberal party is broke and owes a lot of money without a lot of donations coming in. It couldn't fund an election if it had to. It couldn't win an election if one was called today.
So why is Dion pushing a suicide plan that even "some" of the peons are calling a scam?

So his buddies can make some money.
By trading Carbon futures.
In a regulated market that is government controlled.

"Montreal’s Climate Exchange waits for the feds before it starts trading carbon emissions"
http://www.montrealmirror.com/2006/080306/news_climate.html

"Montreal Climate Exchange, a market for large polluters to buy and sell emission credits.
...
One problem is the federal government. Like the Bush administration in the U.S., the Harper government is no fan of the Kyoto Protocol. With a “made in Canada” approach to climate change expected to be unveiled in the fall, the Montreal Climate Exchange’s guidelines are as yet unknown. Will membership be mandatory, like in Europe, or will it be voluntary, like in the U.S.? That central question can affect the Exchange’s entire make-up and effectiveness.
...
“In the absence of strict government regulations requiring carbon emissions limits, this will never become anything more than a pilot project,” says Matthew Bramley of the Ottawa-based Pembina Institute, an environmental think-tank. “If you look at the EU, it’s a thriving market: in 2005 the volume of trading there was over $8-billion (U.S.). But the Chicago Climate Exchange, which isn’t government-enforced, the volume was only $2.8-million (U.S.).
...
In May, the World Bank reported that the trade in carbon dioxide emissions grew in 2005 to $10-billion (U.S.), a 10-fold increase over 2004, with the EU accounting for 75 per cent of the market, although almost half of the total amount of emissions reductions came from the developing world. The biggest buyers of the 453.5 million tonnes of carbon dioxide credits sold in 2005 were Japan, Britain and Italy. The biggest seller by far was China.
...
Other big sellers are Brazil, the rest of Latin America and India."

The "green shift" is all steam and mirrors to distract the public from following the money.

Dion if the front man for this scam and it will be worth big bucks to Power corp, Desmairis, Chretien and a whack of other big playing Liebranos if Canada "officially" signs on to this "cap and trade" snake-oil.
The Lieberal back room boy's are hungry for their entitled pork. Push the Kyoto crap now so any party dealing in election mode will have to include it. (thanks to the MSM)

Dion can't pull off an election, but he can still be a bagman.

"Let Ontario figure out how to support the leeches they continue to breed ... with their own money."

Charming sentiment.

You must be very proud.

JJM:

I'm extremely proud to be a hard-working Canadian who pays his taxes, wishes nobody any harm and is part of the most dynamic economy in this country.

If you share those sentiments, you would be welcome to come help build the new economy in Alberta.

Hurry, before you need a passport.

let me see now

manitoba=====a bunch of pinkos

saskabush===just kicked their pinkos out, not that long ago

BC====more pinkos, with vancouver worst than TO for being welfare oriented

newfberta,===== has only in resent years been self sustaining

ontario===uptill present has been a very large contributor to the ottawa tax pocket

SO WHY DO SOME FOOLS IN HERE KEEP HARPING ABOUT ONTARIO'S WELFARE SITUATION WHEN TALKING TAX DOLLARS

it's us ontario tax payers who have been gitting skrewed by the welfare scam in the GTA

If every province and every territory had to go it on their own to survive financially, and not have to send their surplus to Ottawa to disperse, we would all be better off. It is about time some provinces and a territory started pulling their own weight.....nothing like starvation to motivate those with their hands out to start carrying their own weight.

GYM:

Somebody voted the bastards in ... and keep voting them in.

Weren't us from out west.

If you're frustrated, c'mon out and help us build Canada's only relevant economy for the future.

Saskatchewan's housing prices are a bit lower now, but their roads still suck ... they've a bit of catching up to do.

FREE THE WEST

Dion's PHD thesis was on Marxism while he was at a University in socialist France. Does that not ring a few bells about what his true colours are and that is not Green.

His wife is also a well known published advocate of socialism and "progressives" - which is the modern more politically correct way to say communism according to Marx.

Dion wants to be Robin Hood with other people's money. But we all know the Liberals pretty well ALL have an OPM addiction (Other's People
Money)...Dion and his radical greeny weenies just take it to a whole "old" level - as socialism(communism) and Marxist regimes are being fought back against in the rest of the world Dion wants to convert Canada to the good old days under DeGaulle when he was a young Marxist citizen of France and life was probably pretty good for a backpacking effeminate student like Dion in those days.

nice green shift policy how will this work now,take money from rich to give to poor so they can all afford to fire up the old 86 lincons and burn 20 times the amount of gas,that should really green up the old planet again seen as how green plant life lives on co2. got to admit coming from dion he sure knows how to make things greener

Sad part is, Ken B ran as a conservative around 12 years ago federally. Realized that the libs could run 2 rocks here and win so he switched horses. I live in Thunder Bay, sooner or later the lights have to come on and we'll vote conservative.

"In an interview yesterday, Mr. Boshcoff said he should have been more responsible with his words, but never viewed the Green Shift carbon tax as having a negative impact on any part of the country."

I guess by "more responsible" he meant he should have kept up the ol' Liberal lies.

The Liberal green shift truth = Bend over Alberta.

"Hurry, before you need a passport."

The snide separatist stuff is pretty puerile.

I have no use for separatists no matter which of our national languages they speak.

They are petulant children.

That Alberta's economy is stunningly successful there can be no argument; that it is somehow "new" and "dynamic" is less sure.

It's based almost entirely on geography and the cost of a barrel of crude which puts the province (and by extension, Canada) more or less in the same league as Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States.

JJM: "I have no use for separatists no matter which of our national languages they speak."

Then your happy with the existing system. Which makes you, for lack of a better term, sound like a liberal. If the current political system was changed to create regional equality, instead of all power at the center, much like the US system, we wouldn't be constantly having these conflicts. That's all the separatists are asking for, and to dismiss it, to me, is rather arrogant.

It's the antiquated political system in Canada that is causing all the divisions.

"If the current political system was changed to create regional equality, instead of all power at the center, much like the US system, we wouldn't be constantly having these conflicts."

If you believe there's regional equality in the US system, or that any nation can exist without regional quarrelling, you're delusional.

GYM you have a faulty memory about economics, and equalization payments. In the 1980's Ontario fell into "have-not" status, for several years and was eligible for equalization under the formula then in vogue. The Premier of the day, Bill Davis, did not accept the Federal money.

I wonder if it is best to ignore Dion and the Liberals than get angry in the West? Getting angry may make him more popular in Ontario and Quebec. What is the mood in Saskatchewan about the green shift? Alot of Albertans are oblivious to the damage it would do to this province. I am sure once instituted, the carbon rates will continue to rise from 15 billion to 30 billion a year. Ontario can't stand to have another province wealthier than it.

JJM: Two senators per state, but it doesn't mean that state is going to win every time, as they still have majority votes. It's not perfect, but far superior to a country that is controlled by a small portion of two provinces that, are for the most part, clueless about what exists outside their borders. Eliminate the lobby system, and earmarks, and it's close to ideal. Rep by pop only works on tiny islands.....

And for whoever said we haven't pulled our weight until recently in Alberta... review your history... over 250 billion and counting... http://tinyurl.com/6e5or6

There is a big difference between the motivation behind the separatists of Quebec and the West.

In Quebec it is a gimme,gimme attitude. Gimme more money. Gimme special recognition. Gimme special powers. Gimme asymmetrical federalism.

In the West, it is simply telling Ottawa to keep their dirty paws off our economy and to mind their own business.

liberals are all commie bastards.

"There is a big difference between the motivation behind the separatists of Quebec and the West."

In both cases, for entirely self-serving reasons, the separatists of Québec and of Alberta want to be shed of Canada.

A pox on them both.

JJM

you see to assume that the satus quo is pure as the driven snow. The fact remains that Southern Ontario views itself as Canada and therefore everything that happens in the ten provinces and three territories must be for the betterment of Canada (s. Ont.) What the westerners and the Quebecers are saying is simply this. We joined a Confederation not a Federation, therefore we are masters in our own homes. What we do with our home and how we develop our home is no one else's business. I don't lecture Toronto about their smog or how they are destroying their economy and I sincerely wish that Toronto would treat Alberta in kind. If S Ont can't figure that out and stop being some kind of evnvious bully then I have no choice but to leave the relationship.

Put another way don't blame the battered spouse when the one doing the battering is left all alone. BTW don't try the guilt trip either. Alberta in putting up with Ontario's abuse has more than paid its dues.

Anyone for our own Boston Tea Party, if the center votes Dion and the Liberals/commies in? That's what it boils down to, in my view. Somone up above asked what do we do with the portion of ALberta who feel more like Ontario voters than the ones who wish to separate. I say ask anyone in the eatern townships of Quebec, parts of New Brunswick and NS,and parts of Ontario what their United Empire Loyalist forefathers did when push came to shove in the 13 colonies and they left the mother countrr?

They moved out, to Canada at the time. Can't say that I would be sorry to see them go should it come to that under the Green Shift.

Alberta has 28 federal seats vs 75 in Quebec and 103 in Ontario. The political system is skewed to the center. I lived through the NEP and I vowed then that I would fight if push came to shove the second time. I'm Canadian, eh, too polite - not this time.

Joe:

That was a rant, pure and simple. You've picked nothing but silly accusations and noise out of the air.

I've only indicated two things in this thread.

First, my sense of Harper's view on Albertan prosperity which I think is a practical one and I approve of - vice Dion's desire to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Secondly, my enduring disdain for separatists of any ilk - and what I take to be ridiculous "near-racist" comments of the most spurious kind.

What exactly is Alberta's self serving reason? Their refusal to allow a socialists from Quebec to demonize them, interfere with their main industry, rob them blind and then use the money to buy votes in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. That is not self serving behaviour on Alberta's part, it is self-defense. Because of the way our confederation is set up, there are few other ways for the smaller provinces to defend themselves from these types of raids.

"Alberta has 28 federal seats vs 75 in Quebec and 103 in Ontario."

Excuse me, am I missing something here?

28 Federal seats translates to one seat for about every 120,000 Albertans. That's approximately the same as Ontario and BC.

At 75 seats, Québec gets one seat for every 100,000 or so.

But then, Manitoba and Saskatchewan seem to be doing even better at one seat for every 86,000 and 70,000 respectively.

Hard to see how this is unfair representation that favours "Central Canada."

Did I say it was unfair? Because it's what Ontario & Quebec voters want that is the issue here. Don't equivocate on what canstitutes the riding count, because we don't buy that argument any more. Our votes don't really enter into the equation when the vote-rich center wants what we have to fund a political party's efforts to get into power. The issue is the dysfunctional democracy we have in this country. Move out here and live and work, then you can try and slap us around. All I'm reading here is the typical arrogant central Canadian spouting off. You don't have to like us but we don't have to abide by your decisions either. Canada ceased to exist for me with the introduction of a "made in Canada" price on oil circa NEP v.1, that benefitted Ontario & Quebec motorists, at my employment expense. You don't "own" us like property or our geographical good forture in resources. We won that battle in federal court. The center wants to ram another type of wealth redistribution down our throats that does not benefit us, based on our good fortune, then we leave.

I have never had a problem with the rep by pop concept, even if that means that the maritimes, Sask. and Man. get fewer seats. The issue, as I see it, is the way in which central Canada wields the power that is the problem.

The Liberals repeatedly pit region against region, poor against middle class, urban against rural, immigrant against mainstream - divide and conquer tactics. There is also no recourse or process for small provinces to protect themselves for tyranny of the central canada majority. So since it is central Canada that keeps voting Liberals into power the voters, by extension, must support these unfair policies. Therefore, it is bit odd that any central Canadians should wonder why smaller regions get upset and use the only tool they have (separation) when the feds come a calling.

"Did I say it was unfair?"

Then why did you mention it in the first place?

"Move out here and live and work, then you can try and slap us around."

Am I slapping you around? By your bellicose and intemperate language, I'd suggest you're the one doing the slapping.*

"You don't have to like us but we don't have to abide by your decisions either."

How do you know I don't like Albertans? Did I say that? Where?

My friend, your posting is nothing more than a grumpy rant and a tirade.

I do believe however that this is becoming an "extended debate" which I think Kate does try to discourage so I'll call it a day with this.

* I have lived in Alberta and - though you might be shocked - I enjoyed every minute of it. But then, I've happily lived all over Canada and overseas at one time or another.

My friend, your posting is nothing more than a grumpy rant and a tirade.

What, pray tell was yours? And just for the record, I've lived and worked across this country as well. I'm born and raised in Ontario and most of the people living here now in ALberta are from somewhere else. When the "center" uses it's collective votes to bully the rest of the country into policies that they can't counteract at the ballot box, you have some nerve getting your back up when we point out the obvious to you. We are out numbered and our votes don't count. It's pretty obvious to me from your pompous rant that you learned nothing from working and living across Canada.

JJM: What part of what I wrote is a rant? I am simply expressing the frustration that generations of Albertans have felt. When my great grandparents moved from the US into the territory that was to become Alberta they soon discovered that "Canada" was made for the "golden triangle's" benifit. The little town that sprang up after the settlers moved in boasted a coal mine, a sandstone quary, a dairy/creamery, a flour mill, There were local buyers for eggs, poultry and in short order it was discovered that the entire area sat on a natural gas field. The farmers would buy their equipment locally and grumble about the high cost of machinery. There were huge tarrifs protecting Ontario from the cheaper American manufacturers. The flour mill shut down when it couldn't by local wheat. The creamery shut down when it got tangled up in the nightmare that of the milk board. Egg station soon followed suit. However the locals carried on selling their grains to the local elevators which then shipped the produce by rail to the coast or the lakehead. At least the freight by rail was subsidized or else there would be no profit in growing cereal crops. That is until the government began subsidizing the railways and not the farmers. The railways then abandoned the branch lines leaving the farmers to truck their crops to points miles away where they would be told how much they would receive as compensation. That left cattle which are still sold on the open market and oil and gas. Some of the farmers became wealthy raising the best beef in the world while others subsidized their farming operations by working in "the patch". Then along came NEP 1. High interest rates, low commodity prices and now thanks to Ontario no work off the farm.

You may have worked all across Canada but you obiously never talked to a local and you certainly have never learned from history. My family has spent over 100 years working for the benifit of Southern Ontario and enough is enough.

Yawn.

Call me when Dion wins the election.

I will not be holding my breath.

The middle class in Ontario doesn't want to be buggered over any more than the middle class in Alberta.

Joe,

You've turned an ignorance of economics into a conspiracy theory.

The NEP was a smackdown of Alberta by Quebec's Trudeau - not Ontario. If you think it benefited Ontario you're on drugs. Ontario's economy tanked at that time and tanked hard.

It was Quebec (and the other deadbeat provinces - including SK) who has benefited from the Liberal's various schemes (and losers too lazy to work.) Ontario pays just like Alberta and has always done so.

Consequently, tarrifs were there to raise money for government in a time before income and sales taxes. The history of tarrifs is long and foolish but it wasn't some plan to screw the west.

Canada's federal government has been the enrichment of deadbeats in the east coast, Quebec, Manitoba, and Sask. Ontario (and Alberta,) are the net payers.

If NEP was supposed to be the panacea that saved Ontario, then explain how Ontario economy was so bad it qualified for equilization at the same time, and how if the feds were there to "screw" the west for Ontario's sole benefit that they (they being quebec's trudeau) quickly changed the formula so that Ontario couldn't collect a dime.

Warwick, the facts are right, but explain to me why Ontario voters supported the Libs in droves, at the time? Again, if Ontarioans are so sick of paying equalization, then why did they vote 100+ seats over three terms with Cretien, but voted Harris on the provincial level?

"Warwick, the facts are right, but explain to me why Ontario voters supported the Libs in droves, at the time? Again, if Ontarioans are so sick of paying equalization, then why did they vote 100+ seats over three terms with Cretien, but voted Harris on the provincial level?"

Because, intelligent crooks they are, those same Ontario voters f*cked the rest of us with a combo of Cretien and Harris - and then moved West. Good luck, Westies.

Mr. Boshcoff seems unwilling to give up.

http://www.newstalk650.com/blogs/john-gormley/another-liberal-bites-dust-over-green-shaft