How thoughtful of them indeed... Deciding how to spend money that isn't theirs... This country is doomed...

#2 - "A collective energy pool to spread the wealth"

Stephane could call it the Green Shift or the National Energy Plan.

I voted for "something else" else in that one too. I thought it was ridiculous that categories that improve the individual provinces were not on the list - like paying down provincial debt, improving infrastructure, tax reductions, diversifying the economy. Nope every option except the last was a new form of equalization. Definitely a troll poll by the G&M because even the densest socialist would assume that the provinces would want to help themselves first.

Isn't that what Hawkeye chanted in the MASH mess hall that time? "We want something else! We want something else!"

Whew! I was worried it might be Ghiz showing his brilliance again!

Maybe the Globe is trying to provoke a backlash from poor Globe readers against the rich westerners! Its not fair that you have to actually MOVE to Calgary to make $16/hr. working at McDonald's! Be Green. Send the money by wire!

The poll was set up by a "steering committee", if you know what I mean.

why not share the wealth and keep your dirty "grin 'ouse gizzes" filthy oil barons and creators of food.

Freeze. In. The. Dark.

Does that mean Quebec will have to kick in their hydro electric wealth ?

Fred,
You mean the "distinct and separate culture?" We all know the answer to that.

Im wondering when the collective genious of Buzz Hargrove, Jack Layton , Dalton &McGinty (the law firm) and Borat Dion will figure out that adding taxes to fuel and cutting "grin 'ouse gizzes" are all directly related to shutting down a truck line in Oshawa. next will be a steel plant in Hamilton and then a smelter in Sudbury. take the wealth and spread it around boys till there is nothing left to distribute.

actually its kinda fun to see Buzz walking around so uptight it looks like he sat on and inserted a large collective agreement.

If something like this is attempted, Ontarions will end up buying their oil from the Republic of Alberta.

Does that mean Quebec will have to kick in their hydro electric wealth ?

Posted by: Fred at June 9, 2008 11:04 AM

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

What about Ontario's Niagara Falls hydro electric wealth?

It's been putting out "Energy Wealth" non-stop for over 100 years!

rabbit: **If something like this is attempted, Ontarions will end up buying their oil from the Republic of Alberta**

I guess then the poll would skew to "Foreign aid".

Isn't all of the billions that the feds are sucking out of Alberta in equalization payments sharing the wealth?

Last stats I read showed that the federal transfer payments for Alberta were pretty much equal to its oil royalties.

It's not really sharing when they are taking 100%...

“A multiprovince university system”
Not a bad idea provided the western (conservative) benefactors finally get a chance to control the little darlins’ minds.

When manufacturing boomed in Eastern Canada in the past, I don't ever recall a suggestion to share that wealth with western Canada during the hard times out here.

Eastern Canada can tighten it's belt and cut it's overly generous welfare programs and frivolous social spending and all the various special interest group funding that does nothing but make people lazy and stupid. Then they can send their more skilled workers out West were the jobs are.

Voila, everyone wins and the welfare bums get the tough-love they so desperately need.

I am sure that the Republic Of Alberta will offer fair and competetive prices with timely delivery
provided a letter of credit is supplied.

At the same time Albertans would see a huge price reduction as there would be no federal tax!

I am sure that the Republic Of Alberta will offer fair and competetive prices with timely delivery
provided a letter of credit is supplied.

At the same time Albertans would see a huge price reduction as there would be no federal tax!

Sorry for the double post...my bad!

I wish Easteners could understand the rage that will follow any attempt to repeat a NEP type of policy directed at Alberta....VERY BAD IDEA to go there. VERY VERY BAD!!!

Awww, come on you westerners. Don't you want to hand over all of your wealth to idiots like chimpy mcliar, so he can spend it on transgenderfreakofnature type surgeries?

Where is your sense of generosity?

Are we not all Canadians?

Ontario has some big-time pension liabilities in the near future, and the latte sipping idiots are going to demand that you westerners fund it.

Man, living in Ontario is wonderful!

I'm a Saskatchewanian and I don't see why we as Westerners are so upset about the fact that now we have to support Canada rather than be fed by it. I've disliked Ontario and Quebec for the duration of my short life for their political clout, and total ignorance of Western issues, etc., however, Saskatchewan itself has relied on federal transfer payments for decades to support itself.

When it's finally our turn to give back, and the economy has swung in our favor and against the Easts, why is it that we have to be such pricks about it?

STOPIGGY & Muslim Al-Gebra's & Aunt-American's "public policy".
Al-Gebra say, "We need a national energy strategy.”"

What/who is our enemy? The State and the minds of Egghead Iggy and the Muslim theocracy of Al-Gebra, et al.
...-

"“This,” he said, “is one of the emerging imperatives of public policy – to get a really visionary commitment to strengthening the east-west energy linkages instead of shipping it all south.”"
...-

"Ignatieff has a vision: a trans-Canada energy highway"

"Omar Alghabra, the Liberal energy critic, says his colleague is on the right track. It's too gigantic an issue for Canada to just leave to the market, he says. “We have to reduce barriers that prevent Canadian oil from being used by Canadians. We need a national energy strategy.”"
http://tinyurl.com/4mxrs3 (g-m)

In the world of "Jebus" (whatever that is supposed to mean, some puerile stab at Judeo-Christian civilization....oooooh were scared!) there are only hosts and parasites. We just take turns sucking or being sucked.

Jebus:

Actually Albertans don't make too much fuss over transfer of payments. They do make a fuss over Ottawa mucking about with the oil industry. There's a couple of reasons for this...

First, according to the Canadian Constitution, natural resources are a provincial jurisdiction. Second, when Ottawa implemented a national oil strategy in the early 1980's, the results were an unmitigated disaster. Albertans - and indeed all Canadians - paid the price for that bone-headed idea.

That's why Albertans are a might sensitive.

Doug,

Actually it was the name of Jerusalem before the Israelites captured it. Or you can take it as a quote from the Simpsons when Homer asks Jebus to save him.

So sadly, your assumption that anyone who doesn't share Judeo-Christian values is a leftard are woefully incorrect.

As to parasites and hosts, I agree, that is what the current system is. However, it is also how a successful family, community, or group of individuals survive successfully; namely that it supports those who are in unfortunate positions. I agree the equalization payment plan isn't perfect, but I sure as hell am glad it was there in 1980's so that I could get a decent education, paid for by the Ontario manufacturing sector.

I'm just not sure what problem you have with the communal idea of helping those less fortunate. This obviously doesn't have anything to do with one province being more industrious or hardworking than the other. The sole factor playing a role here is the luck of the draw, i.e. where the oil got deposited, where the natural resources were placed, etc.

Another perfect example of the mindset that pervades the MSM ... Globe& Mail should be thanked for clarifying that!

BTW - under "something else" .... I'd say building better roads would be a heck of an idea.

Jebus:

The problem is not the way you describe it.

On the one hand citizens can act like you and your fellow Saskatchewanians and be proud and pleased you have finally toughed it out and can now be identified as a "contributor" rather than a "Taker". On the other hand you can act like Newfoundland. The oil revenues start coming in and the coffers are full but they want to keep all of their revenue and they also want to remain on the Canadian dole. People who support and agree with Danny Williams are ingrates and shysters. The people who support your Premier are just the opposite. Think about it. Westerners are not being pricks just because they want to exercise caution and prudence with the revenues from THEIR natural resources.

As Fred implied ...... I don't ever recall Quebec suggesting they should share the wealth from the hydro they stole from Churchill Falls.

While someone was reading "Heather Has Two Mommies" at bedtime (and in school) he apparently never heard of the Aesop (who? some dead white guy?) fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper

There is being generous and then there is being taken advantage of.

Saskatchewan has some real challenges - the roads are falling apart, the medical system is straining, there is some real demographic problems to do with seniors and aboriginals, high taxes and we have a substantial prov debt to just name a few. Now is time to give back to the long suffering locals that have paid the price during the hard times.

The ROC is welcome to share by moving here,working and becoming a provincial taxpayer. But to repair your neighbors house when your own is falling apart does not make sense. Especially the obnoxious busy-body neighbor to the left.

Besides, wouldn't it be wrong for the Central Canadian greens to take proceeds from dirty resource money. Kinda like buying blood diamonds.

ONCE AND FOR ALL.........

ONTARIO AND QUEBEC ARE NOT IN THE EAST!

THEY ARE OUT WEST!

I understand about the NEP, and agree, that was just a money grab by Trudeau. To BCer, isn't it the same thing as Newfoundland? As you said, why repair your neighbors house while your own is falling apart...well Newfoundland has been falling apart for decades, and now they've finally got some extra cash and want to spend it on their people, to finally give those hardworking people what they deserve.

I'm not saying Newfoundland should keep their oil revenue, I'm just saying that it would be the same thing for Saskatchewan to attempt to hold onto it's oil revenue.

I agree that it's nice for us to finally have some wealth to use for our own provinces advancement, and I think the federal government needs adjust the plan such that it does give incentives for provinces to be successful, etc., however, I don't see why we as Saskatchewanians or Albertans should be better off than the rest of Canada just because we happen to have a resource that has skyrocketed in demand in recent years.

We're Canadians, no? What makes someone in Saskatchewan deserve oil money more than someone in the Northwest Territories? Or B.C.? Or Ontario? I think that we need to let capitalism take it's course in some ways, in the sense that if New Brunswick is tanking economically, we shouldn't prop up a dying whale by telling it's people that they don't have to move, or find a new career or line of work.

As to the Quebec Hydro thing, that's an excellent point. Was their Hydro considered a natural resource and kept exempt from the Equalization plan?

Because to take anything from Quebec wouldn't be the Canadian Way, we give to the East never take from.

Funny how all the choices in the pool involved "sharing" the money (or more precisely, giving the money away).

I was looking for the option "return revenues to taxpayers with reduced taxes". Couldn't find it. It seems to me that should be the first consideration when the provinces have excess money and they are trying to invent new ways to spend it. Maybe they should not spend it at all.

If the western provinces reduce taxes, then that will put more pressure on the east to do the same, lest they lose all their good workers and corporations to the west.

One of my PoliSci text books has a reprint of a cartoon that appeared in a Sask newspaper circa early 1900's. It was a generaliztion of the state of affairs of Canada at the time. On a map of the country representing ON/QC were 4 men in tails playing cards and laughing heartily while a farmer in the West carried two urns of milk and a fishermen in the East carried his catch towards the center. The caption was something about the periphery feeding the center. That perception in ON/QC hasn't changed in 100 years!

Umm, yes, brilliant strategy. Tell Canadians. who have seem pump prices double in the last five years, they should feel guilty, and pay more than $1.40 a litre, that they haven't been deterred enough. Then tell Western Canadians they are very bad for making so much oil, that we'll have to take a bunch of $billions to make everybody rich in the new green scarf economy.

Then blame Harper for truck plan closing, because he hasn't done enough for climate change .... when people change their behaviour they way you want them to.

Finally, force Summer or Fall election. Now there's a winning strategy.

No, but evidence Grits can't find any other way to get rid of their leader.

I can tell you are not a conservative, Jebus. Your entire assumption is that all money and profit rightfully belong to the government to be dispersed fairly and equitably. No, It is the company and workers that take risk and add value to the resource. Therefore the bulk of the rewards should go to them. The province gets a cut for being the owner (BNA act?) and the prov/feds get business and income taxes. That is the money that should be shared amongst Canadians. If individual Canadians citizens want more then they have the right to move here and share directly by working in the field.

BCer said,

"People who support and agree with Danny Williams are ingrates and shysters."

38th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 022
CONTENTS
Thursday, November 4, 2004

Hon. Stephen Harper (Leader of the Opposition, CPC) moved:

That this House deplore the attitude of the Prime Minister of Canada at and following the First Ministers' Conference of October 26, 2004, and that it call on the federal government to immediately implement its pledges of June 5 and 27, 2004, to allow the provinces of Newfoundland and Labrador, and Nova Scotia to keep 100% of their provincial offshore oil and gas revenues.

He said: Mr. Speaker,I will be splitting my time with our deputy leader from Central Nova.

On June 5 of this year the Prime Minister arrived in St. John's, the capital of Newfoundland and Labrador. The context was the following. Obviously it was an election campaign when the Prime Minister was asked to respond to a longstanding Conservative commitment to ensure that the Atlantic provinces would enjoy 100% of their non-renewable resource royalties.

This is a commitment that was made by me in my capacity as leader of the Canadian Alliance when I first arrived here and has its origins in the intentions of the Atlantic accord signed by former Prime Minister Mulroney in the mid-1980s. These are longstanding commitments, our commitment to 100% of non-renewable resource royalties. It was our commitment during the election, before the election, and it remains our commitment today.

For the Prime Minister, this was something that he had opposed for 11 years and for most of his political career. But suddenly in the midst of an election campaign on June 5, he met with Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams. He came out of that meeting and said the following:

"I believe that Newfoundland and Labrador ought to be the primary beneficiary of the offshore resources, and what I have said to the premier is that I believe the proposal that he has put forth certainly provides the basis of an agreement between the two of us."

Premier Williams specified in a letter dated June 10 that:

'The proposal my government made to you and your Minister of Natural Resources provides for 100% of direct provincial revenues generated by the petroleum resources in the Newfoundland and Labrador Offshore Area, to accrue to the government of Newfoundland and Labrador and be sheltered from the clawback provisions of the equalization formula--'

The Prime Minister said he agreed with the Premier's proposal and he gave his word as Prime Minister of Canada. Premier Williams was asked at the press conference announcing the deal how he could be sure the Prime Minister would keep his word after the election. He replied that as a man of honour, that the solemn word of the Prime Minister was sufficient. Premier Williams said: “It's by word of mouth, and I'm taking him at his word, and that's good enough for me”.

Unfortunately, the solemn word of this Prime Minister turned out to be not good enough. The Prime Minister ignored letters from Premier Williams on June 10, August 5 and August 24 urging him to confirm his promise. Suddenly, the Prime Minister and his Minister of Natural Resources fell silent.

Finally, on October 24, two days before the first ministers' conference, the Minister of Finance finally replied offering:

--additional annual payments that will ensure the province effectively retains 100 per cent of its offshore revenues--

Then the minister added two big exceptions limiting the offer:

--for an eight-year period covering 2004-05 through 2011-12, subject to the provision that no such additional payments result in the fiscal capacity of the province exceeding that of the province of Ontario in any given year.

The eight year time limit and the Ontario clause effectively gutted the commitment made to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador during the election campaign.

Why should Newfoundland's possibility of achieving levels of prosperity comparable to the rest of Canada be limited to an artificial eight year period? Remember in particular that these are in any case non-renewable resources that will run out. Why is the government so eager to ensure that Newfoundland and Labrador always remain below the economic level of Ontario?

The Ontario clause is unfair and insulting to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and its message to that province, to Nova Scotia and to all of Atlantic Canada is absolutely clear. They can only get what they were promised if they agree to remain have not provinces forever. That is absolutely unacceptable.

Hon. Stephen Harper (Calgary Southwest, CPC): Everyone in Canada would be happy if one day our Atlantic provinces could fully benefit from their natural resources, everyone except the federal Liberals.

The Liberal attitude is as typical as it is senseless. There is no point pulling back non-renewable resource revenues from a have not province. This is an opportunity and it is a one time opportunity. It is a short term opportunity to allow these provinces to kick-start their economic development, to get out of have not status, to grow this short run opportunity into long run growth and revenue that will be paid back to Ottawa over and over again and that will benefit the people of those regions of Canada for a very long time.

This is what happened in the case of my province of Alberta. Alberta discovered oil and gas in the 1940s and 1950s, Alberta was a have not province. From 1957 until 1965, Alberta received transfers from the equalization program. Alberta was allowed to keep 100% of its oil royalties and there was no federal clawback. This is what allowed Alberta to kick-start its economy, to expand and diversify, to build universities, to advance social services and to become one of the powerhouses of the 21st century Canadian economy.

Of course the Liberals expended endless effort to limit the growth of Alberta's revenues, culminating in the experience of the national energy program. Now we see already, with this opportunity in Atlantic Canada, the same attempts to limit the opportunity. The Prime Minister's Ontario cap effectively limits the maximum benefit of the offshore resource to $452 per person in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador. After that, every dollar will be clawed back by Ottawa, no matter how many billions the offshore resource turns out to be worth.

The Prime Minister, before he was here, was president of a company that largely depended on offshore activity. Does he not understand that energy resources are finite, temporary and a short term opportunity? The provinces of Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia should be allowed, indeed should be encouraged, to improve the living conditions of their citizens and to use this to attract new long term businesses to replace the temporary opportunities provided by the offshore resources.

Instead, when the Atlantic provinces rejected the latest federal offers, the caps, the limits and the exclusions, the government engaged in a clumsy divide and conquer tactic, a tactic which gave away its obvious objective of holding back the development of the Atlantic provinces. It has tried to negotiate with one province and not the other, but both Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia have made clear that their positions are the same and that they want to be dealt with fairly and at the same time.

Whether we live in Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Alberta or anywhere else, we are all Canadians. We all have a right to a better future. That future is not for the Liberal Party to decide to speed up or to slow down, to start or to stop. It is not to negotiate. The Prime Minister gave his word. The terms of his proposal were clear. Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia requested and were promised 100% of their offshore revenues without equalization clawback, period. There is nothing to negotiate.

What is at stake is the future of Atlantic Canada, an unprecedented and historic opportunity for those provinces to get out of the have not status that has bedevilled them for decades. What is at issue is very simple. It is the honour of the Prime Minister, and all he has to do is keep his word.

So BCer, still stand behind your initial statement?

We're Canadians, no? What makes someone in Saskatchewan deserve oil money more than someone in the Northwest Territories? Or B.C.? Or Ontario? I think that we need to let capitalism take it's course in some ways, in the sense that if New Brunswick is tanking economically, we shouldn't prop up a dying whale by telling it's people that they don't have to move, or find a new career or line of work.

According to your plan we would prop up a dying whale. By shifting money to underperforming or badly mismanaged provinces, we encourage the actions that created it in the first place. We have a less mobile work force because there is no reason for people to look for work elsewhere.

Keep in mind that the wealth created by these resources are already taxed in the incomes of the workers and the companies. Not to mention the GST on all the products consumed by these people. In effect you are confiscating what you deem to be excess profits.

How about just leaving well enough alone?*

Western prosperity is good for all of Canada just as it is based on income tax, GST receipts and other existing Federal revenue streams.

* Silly me, how un-Canadian not to tinker with success until it turns to failure!

Lynnh,

I'm not trying to say that the government should be the distributor of all wealth in the nation. What I am questioning is why natural resources are exempt from the equalization plan.

Now that the West is becoming an economic force to be reckoned with, we have to share the burden's of Canada as well. Just because we make our money from oil doesn't mean we should be exempt.

How about just leaving well enough alone?*

Western prosperity is good for all of Canada just as it is based on income tax, GST receipts and other existing Federal revenue streams.

* Silly me, how un-Canadian not to tinker with success until it turns to failure!

Hibernia's total net revenues to the end of 2006 were $14.8 billion. Of that, the oil companies claimed $8.8 billion, the government of Newfoundland $1.2 billion, and the government of Canada $4.8 billion. Counting production from the smaller fields at White Rose and Terra Nova, the total figure is $18 billion, and the respective shares of the companies, the feds and the province, $10 billion, $6 billion and $2 billion.

Williams even borrows the famous Quiet Revolution slogan of "Masters in our own house," although there's an unhappy resonance here. Hydroelectric power was the current of Quebec nationalism, but a lot of that power would come at Newfoundland's expense. For Newfoundland, an already poor province, the cost has been billions of dollars.

It all goes back to the construction of the mammoth Churchill Falls hydroelectric project in Labrador during the 1960s. Newfoundland wanted permission to "wheel" power through Quebec to markets in the northern United States and Ontario. Instead, Quebec insisted on buying the power outright. The federal government could have stepped in and legislated transmission of power through Quebec, (like it did with Trans Vanada Pipelines sending AB natural gas to markets in ON & QUE without SK and MB charging a "fee") but it was afraid of stirring up nationalist unrest. So in the end, as Williams explains it, Newfoundlanders took it on the chin for Canada.

When Prime Minister Harper was in St. John's last November, Williams presented him with a handful of brightly coloured pie charts. Perhaps most dramatic was the chart showing the net revenue from the Churchill Falls project. Newfoundland's project it may have been, but Newfoundland's revenue was the tiny blue slice representing $1 billion; Quebec, which just let the electricity flow through its transmission lines, has almost the whole pie, a large red hunk representing $19 billion. (And for the next 34 years of the contract, the Newfoundland calculation is that Quebec will get close to another $50 billion.)

(Glenn says...The lower Churchil currently lets flow enough hydro electricity to power 1.5 million homes, remove 1.6 megatonnes of CO2 the equivalent of removing 3.2 million cars off the road. Once again Quebec is annexed from the Canadian marketplace but Quebec, and nobody does sh!t about it.)

At the August press conference announcing the settlement, Williams predicted that the Hebron project, whose initial cost will be $6 billion, would contribute $16 billion to Newfoundland's coffers over its 25-year life. The federal government, meanwhile, would get $7 billion. Three weeks later, Williams released a new provincial energy plan that calls for a 10% ownership stake in future offshore oil fields.

How much does Hydro Quebec contribute to Ottawa and the federation....$0.00.

Soryy for the typo should be...

Glenn says...The lower Churchil currently lets flow enough hydro electricity to power 1.5 million homes, remove 1.6 megatonnes of CO2 the equivalent of removing 3.2 million cars off the road. Once again NL is annexed from the Canadian marketplace by Quebec, and nobody does sh!t about it.)

Soryy for the typo should be...

Glenn says...The lower Churchil currently lets flow enough hydro electricity to power 1.5 million homes, remove 1.6 megatonnes of CO2 the equivalent of removing 3.2 million cars off the road. Once again NL is annexed from the Canadian marketplace by Quebec, and nobody does sh!t about it.)

Natural Resources are exempt because of the BNA Act gives the provinces domain over non renewable resources. But they are included in equalization calculations. All of Canada is already sharing in the resource boom through income/business taxation and support industries. The problem is that many want more than that. Which is really just greed and envy disguised in nice words like sharing and social justice.

WTF with the double post and bad spelling?

I msut hvae taht raednig dsiease todya!

"How much does Hydro Quebec contribute to Ottawa and the federation....$0.00."

Well, as a Crown corporation, no corporate taxes are involved (this is true of any publicly-owned corporation in Canada).

But with 20,000 employees and just under four million customer accounts (in Québec alone) as well as big US customers, it's difficult to believe that Ottawa receives no tax revenues from Hydro-Québec.

get rid of all socialists.

kingstonlad, have you read about the u.s. city that gave it's fire and police etc pensions of 80 percent of their wages. the current fuel price disaster as well as the housing slowdown has made it impossible for the city to meet the obligation. ontario may find itself in the same situation.

I am on the side of NFLD too, Glenn. I know how the people of NFLD were treated by the gov't of Canada when the country of NFLD choose (by a very narrow margin, perhaps a questionable margin) to join Canada. The promises Canada made to NFLD were "scraps of paper" and the Feds plundered and insulted NFLD for the next 50+ years. NFLD elected a strong capable leader when they elected Danny Williams; I admire and respect Premier Williams. He stands up for NFLD - the people who elected him. The Prime Minister is the only comparable leader in the Dominion, it is not surprising that these two outstanding leaders lock horns occasionally. This is a good thing IMO. I know many NFLDers, they are fine people that I am proud to call friends - I will never stand against them.

The remaining provinces of this Dominion have elected weak, lack lustre, wobbly kneed Premiers and if the truth be known, we only WISH that we had a Premier of the caliber of Danny Williams.

The worst insult and robbery of the province of NFLD (beyond plundering the Grand Banks) was the 'deal' NFLD made with Que. re: the hydro power from Churchill Falls. I think Danny should take Que. to court and DEMAND pay back for stealing from the province of NFLD all these years.

That is retroactive payments for all the years Que. has been selling power that does not belong to Que.

Jebus sounds like a typical Sask. socialist. I know, I live in Sask. and see many of them on a daily basis. I guess that's why I take so many showers.

Actually you can tell the gravity of Central Canada's economic situation by the frequency of use of the phrase 'no matter where we live, we are all Canadians'.

It means their slack-a$$ed, boneheaded politicians need to find an outside source of funding for their dunb ideas.

BTW, exactly how much does Ontario SUBSIDIZE the price of electricity nowadays?

On another note....All this craziness going on in the world today. Everything is so upside down. We have enviro-nazis, commies, libs, satan's cult of islam, and probably a few more lunatics that I can't think of right this second.

I don't believe we can win this fight with words. It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Nope, words won't win this. We're going to need more than words.

To A Storm is coming,

Call me what you wish, however answer me this simple question:

Are you seriously saying that for the last 50 years you would have preferred to be an extra 10 - 15% tax just so your province wouldn't slide wildly into debt instead of just a slow gradual move into debt? That would be the reality of Saskatchewan for the last 50 years had the equalization program not existed.

old white guy

If Ontario's manufacturing and tourism bases keep declining as they have been the last few years(and with zero leadership coming from chimpy mcidiot, I cannot see how it can get better)it is only a matter of 5 - 7 years before they either 1. have to borrow to cover their pension obligations or 2. raise taxes substantially.

I can just here the gen Xer's now. BANG, from leftard to neocon, cuz not only do they not want to fund the "f'king hippy's" retirement(their words, not mine), they actually loathe them.

"We're Canadians, no? What makes someone in Saskatchewan deserve oil money more than someone in the Northwest Territories? Or B.C.? Or Ontario? I think that we need to let capitalism take it's course in some ways, in the sense that if New Brunswick is tanking economically, we shouldn't prop up a dying whale by telling it's people that they don't have to move, or find a new career or line of work."

Idiot

Here's an idea:

How about just leaving the Western boom alone and being perfectly content with the massive amount of revenue from GST and Federal personal/ corporate income tax it is generating for Canada?*

* Yeah, I know. It's positively un-Canadian not to want to tinker with economic success until it falls on its face.

Oops!

Sorry Kate.

Seems my above did appear earlier twice (with slightly different wording). I had a few challenges here and thought I had failed to successfully post.

Still, the message was worth repeating, I think.

A Storm Is Coming:

What the hell is "We're going to need more than words" supposed to mean? Encoded bullshit like that might be more appropriate over at "Storm Front".

If Eastern Canada goes for our resource wealth like the National Energy Program, I think we should start a new country here in the West.

As for sharing the wealth, if people want a share of it, move to Saskatchewan.

This said, Western Canada should broaden its energy resource sector into leading edge solar collection. The USA needs electricity as well as oil. There is lots of sun on the Prairies.

Some might think it Star Trek stuff, but we could also have space based solar collectors. Let's think big!

If equalization would not have existed then people of Saskatchewan would have adapted by fixing the problems and creating a stronger economy, accepting the lower standard of living or moving to greener pasture. Saskatchewan's problem was never one of resources, opportunity or drive but mostly govt incompetence, specifically socialism. It is the natural consequence of kicking out private business and then allowing government to own and operate the remaining business. Equalization just delayed the pain.

Well Jebus, I'm not quite sure what equalization and the n.e.p. type policies that the libs want to do, have in common.

To Rabbit: good name for you. My post meant exactly what it says. This country/world is heading toward an armed conflict whether your sensitive mind can accept that or not. I'm not a storm front kind of guy. I'm not racist. I tend to judge people on ideology, not skin color. Read my post again. I never mentioned color. Bury your hear if you want, that won't save your ass.

Jebus I don't feel it is a reflection of not supporting equalization. There was also a piece in the G&M by a guy at ATB who was opining how Alberta should spend the money ie multi-provincial university funding etc. Albertans are hicks 'till they give their money away to the arts and stuff.

Rick Shaw,

Solar Power in Canada is not something viable ever. Not now, not tomorrow, not in the past. We are far far far above the equator and the result of that is indirect sunlight which translate into extremely poor power production from even the most modern solar cells. Nuclear would be by far more efficient, cheaper, and better for our economy than solar cells.

Lynnh,

That's quite possible. I agree that the NDP's treatment of business as leprosy was quite foolish. As to what we would have done though, it can generally be accepted that we would have lived with a lower standard of living, with worse roads, more broke farmers, and a very low population.

I suppose it's all personal opinion, but I'd rather have a certain standard of living be a minimum across Canada, rather than certain ghetto provinces. I'd prefer richer provinces like ourselves reaping some benefit from our natural resources, but for the most part, still having equalization payments to help out other provinces in need.

Thank-you lynnh, I was going to address that mealy mouthed comment by Jebus in exactly the same way that you have. There are still lots of bolshevik types in Sask (minus one that the stupid Yukon gov't hired; a Mr. Brooks to help make the Yukon totally dependant on the ROC for spending $$ to pay the overpriced gument workers that have settled in on nice comfy furs in Couton's wife's 'Park) but they voted for The Sask. Party because many of the old hippies were worried about their'out to pasture' (pension) funding. Perhaps the old Bolsheviks in Eastern (Central) Canada should have considered their own pasture money when they voted for goofy, incompetent Dipper Premiers in their last elections.

Next Glob and flail poll: 'Are western socialists smarter that eastern socialists'?

Just a quick note before everyone flies off the handle (oops, too late).
The options listed in the poll were all suggested by Todd Hirsch in the G+M article, (which apparently no one read) as options for the _western_ provinces.
The universities option was to consolidate them and get them to specialize (which I voted for). Does Lethbridge, Brandon and (shudder) Regina _really_ need full-meal-deal universities?
The energy pool was to pool energy resources among _western provinces_. Also a good idea, IMHO: have a read here about how BC and Alta energy supplies complement each other.
http://languageinstinct.blogspot.com/2008/05/battery-and-charger.html
I don't doubt for a second that central Canada, spearheaded by their G+M mouthpiece are drooling over and resentful of the $$ generated in the west, but that is not what this poll was about.

A Storm Is Coming:

I'm not against armed conflict when it is necessary and justified. I am against bloggers not playing straight by being vague just at those times when they should be clear and specific. It often means that they're holding cards they ain't showing.

I shall assume, then, that your style could use some tweaking.

Seems to me, that back in the early 1980's Ontario was eligible for an equalization payment. The Premier (guess what party) said "Hell, no. Ontario is not and will not be a have-not province. We will continue to pay our share."

Maybe Albertans could use a little of the same maturity. Just because the dinosaurs died in Alberta is no reason to get all bent out of shape about helping out a family member. You should remember that for a lot of years, the other family members were helping you.

Should resources be considered under equalization formulae? Of course they should. It would be asinine not to. It seems to me, that the old 50% idea wasn't all that bad. But it must encompass the value of ALL provincial natural resources. BC's timber and mines, AB's oil, gas and timber, SK's mining, timber, oil and gas, MB's timber, mining and hydro generation, ON's mining and timber, QC's mining, timber and hydro, NB's timber and offshore oil, NS's mining and offshore oil, PEI's offshore oil and ?, NL's mining, hydro and offshore oil.

Where the problem occurs, as I see it, is when politicos decide to curry favour by offering one jurisdiction their own special deal. If the rules are set out, and followed, the issue is not nearly as contentious.

Having said all that, I certainly don't blame AB for wanting the same sweet deal seemingly offered to the maritime provinces, it seems to me that a better argument would be that the playing field will be drastically altered by this new offer. And as such, it should a) never have been made and b) should be withdrawn.

I have a real problem with greed as opposed to need. And as Jerry Reed sang so many years ago "Who's gonna collect my Welfare? Pay for my Cadillac?"

I say this coming from the province that sucks the hardest on the federal teat at about 40^ of revenue. Thanks to our whining entitled Provincial pols, and the enabling federal ones, I have thoughts that we may actually be the first province to leave Confederation. In a pine box. Hello SK, we're your new albatross. And you won't be as easy to draw!

Jema54,

thanks for your comments. You said ..."The Prime Minister is the only comparable leader in the Dominion, it is not surprising that these two outstanding leaders lock horns occasionally. This is a good thing IMO."

I agree. I have maintained from the beginning that if PMSH had kept the original intent of his agreement he and the CPC would have garnered all but 1 of the 27 seats in Atlantica for generations to come. With Alexa retiring he would have gotten all 27 now. Danny Williams would have handed him those 27 seats from Atlantica, he really is that popular down that way.

Unfortunately, the O'Brien report gave those within his cabinet, the PMO/PCO and the Quebec wing the opportunity to expand their base in Quebec and their quest for a majority govt. Or so they thought.

Political expediency trumps doing what needed to be done and what would have paid off in the longer run for the health of the nation. What the rest of us got instead was more colonialism and less nation building.

Too bad.

Rick Shaw: I agree that the West should separate. I am quite sick of Ont. and Quebec and their "center of the universe" attitude.

Jebus: You are either very young or an NDP indoctrinate. Socialism aka NDP politics is what killed Saskatchewan. Sask. has more resources than Alberta. One can only hope that with our last election in Sask, TC Douglas is truly dead...once and for all.

I have no sympathy for the East. They are living the Liberal/Socialist life they voted for. Cry somewhere else. We are too busy counting our money!

What big-ticket project should the western provinces put their energy into?

A 30 foot trench at the Manitoba border with Ontario (there could still be oil in MB). Create the Republic of Oilmerica. We could have "directional" pricing. World price for shipment south, World +50% for offshore westward, World x2 for shipment East. Cost of production for Local use.

Too bad we didn't know about the poll before it closed, it may have gone horribly wrong.

I'd like to vote in this poll.
but "the west", is is the only response I would choose.
and furthermore, what business is it of a declining eastern newspaper, to tell us what we should be doing.

really.

I remember the Premier of Alberta on TV announcing we had been invaded by the EAST & our resources contrary to the NEW constitution ( It was never good than & is worse now) where being annexed . If this even begins to happen yet again, where gone. One invasion by troops was one thing in 1880 because of a land grab disguised as a new measurement, than again our economy with the NEP. Another assault on our lifestyles will be the finale.

Nice of the East to have raided our banks out here & stole our grandparents accounts, while sending a train of rotten apples during the depression. Stymied agriculture with a phony control board. Outrageous costs of transportation using the same lines while making it cheap for Ontario to bring manufactured goods. Jailing our farmers for what Easterners do any year selling their grain. The list is endless.

Albertans are the highest taxed people in Canada if not the Planet. While Quebec has the least per person. Plus we give provinces all over Canada interest free loans. We call took a 4 % income cut so the future generations here would be debt free. We went without for years to balance our books. For what? Ingrates who want to loot not produce. This thanklessness wedded to the indignities of a cololonalist Ontario having held us back for a century will cap it with a new round of larceny.

Alberta will just slip away with no fan fare.

Ontario and Quebec are already moving to increase their take. The whole "cap and trade" scam is designed for just exactly that. They're applying pressure on the feds to make it national and rubbing their hands with anticipation at the prospect of the potential windfall from the oil and gas industry.

Jebus:

"if New Brunswick is tanking economically, we shouldn't prop up a dying whale by telling it's people that they don't have to move, or find a new career or line of work."

Saint John N.B. area alone:

Under construction:

$700 million LNG plant

$200 million Pipeline

$ 1.5 Billion Nuclear Plant Refurbishment

$ 1.7 Billion Potash plant expansion

$ 11 million Cruise Terminal

Multi- million $ Mall Expansions

Half-dozen new hotels

Proposed or in process:

$ 2 Billion dollar oil refinery

$ 2 or 3 Billion dollar Candu reactor..maybe even 2 of them

$ 100 million dollar Courthouse/ Police Station

Multi-Million $ Waterfront Condo Develop- Sold more in 4 days than last 25 years combined

Multi-million $ Cogeneration Plant

Gas, gold and uranium discoveries

And a lot more that escapes me at the moment.

On the negative side, we have a Provincial Liberal govt on training wheels. For 3 years.

Their first year in officer they hiked taxes and announced a Self Suffiency agenda. With a 25 year timeline.

And now are trying to convince Harper that NB can become self sufficient, if only Ottawa would pony up more dollars.

They are also quite excited about NB's own Carbon Tax. But ours beats the Federal Liberal one all to heck. Ours isn't revenue neutral. No sir. It's going to give even more back to taxpayers.

Anyone, anyone who believes him needs a curfew and a caretaker.

Yeah Belisarius, the cap and trade scheme is balls, we can only hope that somehow PMSH can come up with something to shoot the bill down.

To Gypsy,

I am young, and I do agree that the NDP are the one's that had previously killed this provinces economic independence, in the very same way that Manitoba is handicapped by their NDP government.

I merely support the idea of equalization payments, and I do not believe in exemptions of any kind on any good or service being included in the formula for it's calculation. Just because it's our primary resource doesn't mean it should be exempt in the same sense that Ontario shouldn't be able to claim their revenue from the auto industry should be exempt from their calculations.

Obviously it's not the right time for the feds to be rattling sabers about taking our oil revenue to shore up their declining manufacturing sector, but the system's been broken a long time, and it's silly for Saskatchewan to believe we'd have been all right without our equalization payments over the years.

If we want a say in this country, in terms of politics, it's direction, etc. we have to become contributors in the same way Ontario has dominated national policy because of it's economic clout and it's volume of voters.

Summom Bonum,

That's excellent N.B. is doing so well, I had no idea of the economic boom going on there, and with the price of Potash, I should have realized that N.B. would benefit a great deal as Saskatchewan currently is.

Now, when it comes time for the government to calculate it's equalization payments to N.B., is N.B. going to be upset that they won't be getting any money? Or if they are going to get money, that it won't be anything like they're used to getting?

"Albertans are the highest taxed people in Canada if not the Planet. While Quebec has the least per person."

Please. I can abide a certain level of annoyance and frustration from the West about policies hatched in "Central Canada."

But don't advance your agenda on the back of lies and half-truths. Albertans are almost certainly not the highest taxed people "in Canada if not the Planet [sic]."

Québec residents are positively clobbered by tax and - if you've spent your life in Alberta - you know nothing about high taxes, believe me. There are many countries in Europe and elsewhere whose rate of fiscal confiscation would make your notion of high income taxes seem laughable.

The NEP was brought in by Lalonde and Trudeau to stop the creation of a petro-chemical industry in Alberta which would have caused a migration of workers from Ontario and Quebec to the West, consequently upsetting the Liberal power base. Lalonde is quoted saying that the Liberals would not allow that kind of migration. David

JFC jebus. NFLD should keep every thin dime of their oil revenue. They should stop receiving Alberta's. And if equalization hadn't existed, then maybe Sask. voters would have stopped sending incompetent socialists to Regina 40 years ago, developed their own oil sands, and been sending pogey to the Maritimes for 35 years. And caz, I just left Alberta after 31 years there, and you sound like you may remember nep v1.0. We got f****d over at a time when the premier of the day actually had a pair. What do you think Ed "Smallberries" Stelmach is capable of doing, when Ontariario comes a'callin'?

At least there was no call for more swill for free-loading farmers.

Glenn:

You're talking through your hat. NB and NB and PEI are unanimous. Danny Williams is an obnoxious twit.

NB and NS and PEI....

Armed conflict? I don't think it is possible at this time(not saying I support it). We are currently in a climate where we can not post an opinion without fear of repercussion. IMO it doesn't matter what you say, because new ground is constantly being broken on what you can and can't say (apparently you can't mock an accent). Any type of armed conflict within our boarders(civil war?) would require organization, and I'm pretty sure we've lost the right to freely associate. The signs are in front of us: gun registration(confiscation), the rewriting of history, banned books and music(RAP), and finally the elimination of free speech.

I have dwindling hope that a Conservative majority can fix this, I've got 5 years of patients left. I find it extremely positive when a "softy" like our "morning radio guy" brings up the "S" word. "The people of Central Canada are the biggest threat to our way of life"

I agree with the post re: Gen 'X' and how we've been bent over by the Boomers, but perhaps not to the point of loathing. Sure we can blame them for lots of s**t, but who is perfect.Their biggest F'up as I see it is how they've tried to destroy the family structure, which resulted in the Boomers not reproducing at a rate to sustain themselves.Fools! Selfish! That being said, they have us by the balls. This is why McCain will win in November and we'll never have hip hop radio, too many old farts with too many votes. I suspect this is a national security concern for the future.

To Rabbit:

Assume what you will lagomorph.

"Jebus" As a life long resident, of Saskatchewan, need I remind you that all the oil,gas,potash,uranium,coal,diamonds and all the others things we have here have always been here. The only thing that has kept us a "have not" prov. for all these years has been the N.D.P. and all the GD whiners that voted for them. Nuff said.

Hey, is that some sepratist talk I am hearing? Well it's about time!

summom bonum

No hat required, it is what it is. The CPC will lose seats in Atlantica next election. You're viewing things 'now' through a fractured lens. and a little late getting to this party. I've broken down the seat count in the past showing how the CPC could have wrestled a majority out of keeping their word to Atlantica. Did you actually read the Hansard or is your rebuttal a knee-jerk one?

Once Dion gets the shiv and either Rae-Iggy get in the CPC are doomed. Then we'll be talking about a fractured country. AB nor NL will be hanging around this time to see where the chips will be landing.

It is what it is.

The problem with Atlantic Canada is that it wants to have its cake and eat it too. The CPC kept its promise of maintaining the status quo on equalization and resource revenue. But it also offered another deal to which the Provinces could opt in, which increased equalization but also factored in resource revenue. This was optional. But the prospect of increased money in the short-term was just too tempting for the likes of Danny Williams. All of the moaning and wailing was really just an attempt to extort more money out of the feds. The whole stupid system of equalization really does just generate a culture of dependence. A comparison of New England States with Atlantic Canada illustrates this clearly. I wish there were a way to get rid of it.

Glenn:

Our singular Atlantica media and varied political partisans agreed on one thing, and one thing only for a decade and a half. Reform was Evil, and the Devil himself personified by Manning, Day and then Stephen Harper.

That IMO, plus a decidedly unfriendly national media is what has held Harper back. To ascribe it to a particular policy requires an insight which neither you nor anyone else possesses.

As far as reading tea leaves or whatever else it was that allowed you to see the future: with no members in PEI, 2 in NS, 3 in NB and 3 in NFLD, there is not much to lose and even a disaster is only going to lose 3-4 seats max. Danny Williams has as much influence in NB and NS as Gary Doerr does in Alberta.

My condolences on your Hansard habit.

Belisarius:

Our adverserial system serves the politicians well. The debasement Provincial Premiers go through to avoid accountability underscores why we should never elect a Premier as PM.

All politicians want their cake etc... I too wish the Atlantic Provinces would get out of my pocket.....along with farmers, the Auto industry, the Space industry, the Oil industry.. etc. etc. etc.

Harper snookered Williams with the fine print. Good on him.

Williams wasn't snookered at all by any fine print. He knew exactly what he was doing and understood his choices perfectly. Stick with the original deal or take the new one.

He calculated that he could take the increased equalization payments from the new optional deal in the near term, then apply heavy pressure to the Harper government to remove its future inclusion of resource revenue by calling it a "betrayal" of the original deal. Even better, it gave him an external enemy to rally provincial voters around.

Belisarius:

You are most likely correct. I know I would take Harper's word over Williams' no contest.

My point is that Williams is just doing what Premiers do, ie. "Even better, it gave him an external enemy to rally provincial voters around."

However, each Premier and each Province have their own grubby ways of getting the gelte. Atlantic Canada is no grubbier, and certainly much cheaper.

Having said that, I'm all for change, as long as it involves a whole lot less government.

Typical knee jerk. The Hansard says it all. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

Same as Brad Wall in SK. Roll over and take it and throw whomever you have to under the bus.

It's easy to blame politicians. There is a reason that politicians are all the same.

It works.

Media with an agenda.

Uninformed and easily mislead electorate.

IMO, Harper is an improvement. Change will be incremental.