I know, what we need is a government financing program so these folks can refinance all of that debt again. It's not fair that only people who pay back their debts then get to take out more loans, the payment challenged are being discriminated against here.

Someone call a human rights commission.

One of the best posts I've ever seen. I love it.

"Oddly enough!"

Did you notice the title of the reporter in the The Star article was "Social Justice Reporter"?
If there's no social injustice to report on then you have to manufacture it!

"Social Justice Reporter"

Good God.

Now, isn't this a perfect example of social justice? The woman spent more money than she had, indeed, she spent other people's money and, in return, she has the rapidly depreciating assets she wanted and the debts she agreed to incur to get them?

Sounds just to me. Good morning all.

I wonder how much they spend on lottery tickets a week?

"If you know how to spend less than you get, you have the philosopher's stone."
--
Benjamin Franklin

This article provides a good illustration of the proposition that adding the adjective "social" before a word inverts its meaning. "Social justice" is to justice as "dutch treat" is to a "treat" and a "dutch oven" is to an oven.

The title of the Star piece: POVERTY
Trapped in the spiral of easy debt

Now granted the couple mentioned in the story used to make $100,000 a year between them and now with her $38,000 salary and his $12,000 per annum disability cheque they only bring in $50,000. That's quite a drop in income, but is $50,000 a year now considered poverty?

Sure we all would like to have nice stuff and the latest gadgets. Let me give you a piece of advise my mother gave me when I first got married 38 years ago. If you can't afford it don't buy it. You can always make do until you save up the money to pay for it.

"Annual income twenty pounds,
annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six,
result happiness.

Annual income twenty pounds,
annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

Mr Micawber in "David Copperfield"

"social justice"

I love these "qualified" words: social justice, social democracy, people's democracy, progressive democracy.

It's as if "justice" and "democracy" weren't capable of standing on their own.

The American writer Paul Fussell once noted that there were five words too many in the motto over the US Supreme Court building: EQUAL JUSTICE FOR ALL UNDER LAW.

The word JUSTICE was all that was needed, the rest being entirely redundant since they were wholly implied by that one word.

She went into debt to buy overpriced furniture.

She has a spiritual problem. She needs help, not money.

A $3800 TV, $176 cable/cell/internet package?
These folks need a dope smack not an avocate for social justice. If your income drops measurably from $100K, stop living like you make $100K.
This is nothing more than people exercising there right to be victims, I will exercise my right to ignore them.

Social Justice: the stubborn application of unworkable solutions to imaginary problems.

Hmmm.... at sort of the opposite end of this are the relatively few(but financially well-to-do) people/institutions who have invested heavily in ABCP "investments". They have (directly or indirectly) enjoyed the benefits of very high interest rates for the most part, and are now crying that they were "duped" and expect to have at least their full principle returned to them by guess who - yes the gov't. (taxpayers, really) via the big banks who were stupid enough to let this get out of control. These are supposed to be the "wise" people.

After some $40B (probably not done yet) pumped into the banking/financial system by gov'ts, it seems to be working rather well, don't you think.

Why should the few banks and the rest of us who pay our bills/live within our means be penalized to indemnify those who are stupid enough to think that they can reap the benefits of garnering high interest and are not be prepared to take their losses if things melt down.

And the beat continues with another drop in interest rate by the Bank of Canada expected today - which will do exactly what. Of course - to make it easier for those "in-need-of-help" people to live further beyond their means while financial institutions are emboldened to allow it and not be worried about having to take losses, should they occur (and they are bound to) when the piper has to be paid.

this pome(pennyeach) is of an earlier age...but one with many down home precepts i practice.

"when couples sang
and played duets
and it was considered immoral
to be in debt

i shall continue
until i die
to pay in cash
for the things i buy"

"The title of the Star piece: POVERTY
Trapped in the spiral of easy debt"

To be amended to: STUPIDITY
Spending all kinds of money they don't have.

There - improved. I need to get a gig as an editor.

"If you can't afford it don't buy it. You can always make do until you save up the money to pay for it."

But...but...that's...unfair!

To me, anyway. Because, to me, if I can't have something I want, well, god dammit, that's UNFAIR, and I'm going to get it whether I can afford it or not. Then I'll be all weepy when Social Justice Reporters interview me for some Poverty Series they're making up. Then the left will arise in righteous anger! See, they'll shout, how the Harperites are oppressing the poor and undermining their right to own expensive stuff they can't afford!

Then, monstrous right-wing bloggers and columnists will violate my rights by pointing out obvious truths which, if I'd learned them earlier in life, would probably allow me to have some nicer stuff without impoverishing myself.

I assume no sarc tag is required.

I thought it was soscially injust when we took care of our 4 kids on one income, and the payroll taxes that we paid were given to lazy bums down the road who wouldn't get a job.I feel sorry for the guy with the disability but there are ways to cope.
Value Village,Rebuilt Resources, and the Sally Anne have the best deals in town.
We were content.

these people have 50k a year income and can't survive without huge debt. i know many people who have less than 50k and they don't have anywhere close to a debt they can't pay.

If ya want more people on welfare, just raise welfare rates.

If ya want more people on drugs, just give out free needles & crack pipes.

If ya want more people in debt, just remove the stigma of debt poverty and replace it with a victimization liberation theology that says "it's not my fault, somebody owes me"

Miller is not asking for a ban on all easy credit signs. Capitalist tool.

I once knew a social worker who, after years of trying to deny it, finally came to the realization that delayed gratification was a psychological discipline which belonged mostly to the middle and upper classes of the socioeconomic strata in our society.  Without that discipline, the "working poor" tended to immediately acquire all the trappings of materialism, but without understanding the attendant costs of acquiring the debts that went along with the goodies.

That, mixed with living from paycheque to paycheque, meant that the "working poor" were always one payday away from disaster.  His portfolio was filled with people who had injured themselves, gotten sick, or just told their bosses to shove it, and had lost their single-paycheque cushion.  WHAM!  Out on the streets (family and friends were no help, because they were usually from the same socio-economic strata and had the same lack of financial cushion).

The social worker's opinion was that the best thing that could be done for someone like that was to teach them delayed gratification, or they were doomed.

And we spend our time teaching teenagers "self-esteem."  Yeah, that's gonna help.

Great title.

They refinanced their home several times and racked up credit debt by taking cash advances to pay the mortgage.

I am in a like situation. I am selling the house and moving somewhere that I can afford to make ends meet.

These people are making choices. Yes, the disability was unfortunate but life isn't fair.

I am not responsible to foot the bill for other people's poor choices.

These people are enjoying social justice: the fruits of their own stupidity.

"To make things easier for Don, at home all day, and to give the family a source of entertainment two years ago, she bought a large-screen plasma TV and made payments on it for two years.

"You have to have some entertainment for him," she says.

The $3,800 TV is now paid for. But they still have their monthly cable bill of $176, which includes the Internet, cell and home phone."

Cable bill notwithstanding, what exactly would have been wrong with a regular old 32" CRT TV costing $3000 less than a big screen plasma 2 years ago? I had a 19" TV for 15 years before I finally shelled out for a plasma last fall.

Also, I notice that nowhere in the entire piece do the people featured take ANY personal responsibility for their financial situation. That's not social justice, that's stupidity.

Yeah Kate, let's put "these people" these poor people on cattle cars and ship 'em off to camps somewhere, learn 'em the meaning of money so they can handle money like you and your friends in the "real" world. Have a lovely negative day Kate. If the sun shines where you are find something awful to post about it, k?

"All you need is a place to live, a few friends and a source of income," says an ad by easyhome where a sofa and loveseat might rent for $19 a week.

This type of business drives me to drink. Here in the US we have the same type of rent to own businesses. They prey on the ignorance of their target market. Moving in close and providing delivery to impoverished neighborhoods.

Yeah Kate, let's put "these people" these poor people on cattle cars and ship 'em off to camps somewhere

Boy, I never thought of that. I kinda feel bad right now! Wait, the sun just started to shine -- I'm ok.

Wow, the trolls are out at 9.03 am! John, do ever get tired of the mental gymnastics that must be required to hold onto such a thick-headed view? Where in the post,(besides your suggestion), does Kate (or anyone) take the position you ascribe to her? Why, other than sympathy for the guy's condition, should anyone care about people who spend themselves into debt they can't handle, on their own, just because they cannot fiscally discipline themselves?

Ah, the socialist fellow travelers are already up. The reality is that a lack of repercussions to contrary behavior encourages further poor decisions. The working and middle class are very intelligent. They will play the media [the left] for further concessions from the state as well as any protected class will whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Yeah Kate, let's put "these people" these poor people on cattle cars and ship 'em off to camps somewhere, learn 'em the meaning of money so they can handle money like you and your friends in the "real" world.

Well, that's not half a bad idea. I don't know about camps and cattle cars, but certainly you're correct that people who spend themselves into poverty obviously never learned how to handle money, and I think it would be extremely valuable to provide that kind of education. That's a social program I would support (minus the camps and cattle cars, of course) that would pay for itself in short order.

Still, it's kind of funny that you posted such a self-evident truth in a tone intended to convey your hatred and contempt for people who understand it. I think it's quite revealing about who you are, and shows what little respect you have for yourself. I find you pitiable.

That's right, Mr. Daly. I sneer at the poor.

This wealthy blogger owns _two_ TV's. One is 19" (I inherited it when my grandfather died) the other is smaller. No cable here, both have rabbit ears.

No cell phone, either.

I don't have living room furniture at all, my living room having been converted to a work studio long ago.

The studio is in the house because, as a self-employed artist, it's foolish to get locked into high overhead. Times can get tough, and there is no employment insurance to fall back on. The last thing I need to be doing is paying rent on commercial space I'm not using.

My daily driver is a 22 year old truck. I paid 5K for it and a couple of years later, when it started to use oil, I put a rebuild in it for 3K. It looks like crap now that it's starting to rust. But it runs like a top, is cheap to repair, and does the dirty work without fear of getting scratched.

So, yeah - would I ship some of these people to "camps" to learn the art of self-sufficiency if I could? Probably. I've been in that camp all my life, and it hasn't hurt me.

Daly putting people in cattle cars is a terrible idea.
The socialists in Germany did that and we whipped their ass, in the second world war.
Germany has been forever scarred for fooling with socialism.
Socialism/collectivism has killed 100's of millions of people in less than 60 years.
More then any desease, war or famine.

That's why liberals don't hard sell socialism by name any more in Canada, and only the dippers are stupid enough to admire out loud it's dictators like Castro, Mugabe and Chavez.

Get with the times Daly your world view is disgustingly dated well past it due date, time to move on, it's 2008.

Thanks Kate...now we can all have a go at the troll:
Daly, we lived below the so-called poverty line for many years and did not qualify for even the miniscule 'insulation grants'for our drafty farmhouse because duh! one of us worked!The drafty farmhouse was our choice, so we fixed the problem ourselves.
We were content. We managed.We did not get ourselves in to huge debt and then 'blame' society.And we have taught our kids to be responsible for their own behaviour and money.
Let's have the 'Social Justice Reporter' from the Star tell your story Daly.
Have you had it easy, or are you expecting us to pay for your mistakes?
I must get to work now...have bills to pay.

Father Tessier in Calgary, in a sermon said once.
There is no virtue in poverty. There is no depravity in wealth.
Though it is incumbent on the poor to get out of poverty and on the wealthy to do charity.

Daly, you pussy.

Hey , Canada is not alone !

The Clinton administration brought in a policy to increase home ownership in the US and allow lower income wage earners to buy houses !

It was a resounding success ... and resulted in the Sub-Prime mortgage crisis.

... but it was well intentioned !

Three tv's, 2 VCR's, two DVD players and 2 fax machines.
All free, picked up with the remotes mostly, from the curb.

I watch three NFL games at once, in a mini video wall, that i've built with stuff that others toss.
Probably four this fall.

Food is free here too!

Get rid of the cable - over-the-air HD TV is free and there is a good selection of channels in the Toronto area.

Note to everyone: make sure you have decent long term disability coverage in the event you need it as partial income replacement.

Daly - don't look now but you just had your ass handed to you by a girl! Back under the bridge you troll.

Debt today is a serious problem - whether you are an individual, a business or government. We want instant gratification but when its pay up time well all too often it becomes very painful. With some people if they have two nickles to rub together they spent three. It catches up with you.

But as low-income households wind up with expensive products they borrow heavily to buy, it raises the question: Can someone be defined as poor if they can't afford to buy fresh fruit and vegetables every second day or go to a movie twice a year, but are making payments on a plasma TV, a stereo or a car?

Isn't that kicker....?

Sneer at the poor? I'd venture that many of the readers here currently qualify, or in the past have qualified as "working poor". What we sneer at, is the idea that a family earning a mere $50,000 can't survive without spiraling into debt. I'm amazed the idea that this qualifies as some kind of social wrong--a moral issue.

We clearly need a government program to teach kids conservative ideology.

People should be free to be as foolish with money as they want. It is their right. But they should then accept the responsibility and consequences. Don't look to government (taxpayers) to fix things. Not every personal problem requires a government solution.

Besides this isn't about poverty, it's about faulty decision making. Some tough breaks compounded by bad choices. The first couple should have either increased income or decreased outgo after their circumstances changed. This is not impossible, it just takes planning and sacrifice. Many families do this when they choose to have a stay at home parent.

The bottom line is that if you treat people like adults then they may eventually act like one. Making mistakes and learning from them builds character. Being rescued, no matter how well intentioned, does not foster problem solving skills, resiliency or self-reliance.

Perhaps the family mentioned in the article should cash out of Ontario and buy a condo in Arizona. You can get a decent 2 bed 2 bath for around 100K. Oh yeah....no 'free' health care down there.

Mr. Daly, I reread every comment. Not one slams the poor for being poor or suggests that the poor be rounded up and sent to camps. They do point out the folly of overspending or spending what you don't have.

I also clicked on the link to your blog.(if it is indeed your blog) Perhaps as with your vision of Dumbledore, you are seeing things that aren't there.

Lefties cry injustice when "poor" people can not have the stuff the middle class has (such as large screen plasma TVs.)

but lefties also tell us we live in too much abundance and that is what is destroying the planet and no one needs large screen plasma TVs and stuff like that.

in other words,

Having lots of nice things destroys the planet but it is unfair that poor people can not have lots of nice things???!!!

Anyone sees the contradiction here?

"If you can't afford it don't buy it. You can always make do until you save up the money to pay for it."

And oddly enough, if you make do long enough, you'll find you don't really need to get/replace it anyway.

Our Daly Troll assumes that if one is conservative, one is wealthy, that the poor are pure. Our dear, righteous troll. It is bigotry, plain and simple, to assume that conservatism is a result of the intoxication of riches.

Consumer debt can be a problem but where does it say that the rest of society has to look after those not able to take responsibility (oh damn, that "R" word again). And yes, I have been in debt before (thanks in part to Revenue Canada, but that's another story) but I have always paid off my debts. The rent-to-own and house-leasing companies aren't the bad people here, they serve a purpose. I leased my apartment furnishings when I first moved to Houston. That fee was a cost of living and was factored into my budget as was rent, power, insurance, phone and such. As I saved up some money, I would pay down some debt I had and also set some aside to buy my own couch, chair and such. It isn't a get rich quick system but more satisfying to see the look on a salesman's face when you plunk down the cash before he has had a chance to talk about financing.

Sometimes life throws people a curve ball like losing a wage earner but the sad part is that you have to adapt, even if that means more hamburger helper or selling the big house for something more modest. If I can help someone I know that needs a hand I will but I won't put them on my "payroll". i.e. I'll help you move to your new smaller house but I won't subsidize your mortgage payments to the home you can no longer afford.

Kathryn,

You just summed up my thoughts exactly. The sense of entitlement of consumer goods in insane.

I can afford any TV I want, but I have a seven year old normal Sony 32" screen that is more than I need. TV programming sucks anyway.

I was very poor as a young man. The reason was simple, I wasn't thinking. I got tired of it, tore up credit cards resolving to buy nothing unless I had saved the cash for it.

Something strange happened. Once I had the cash for something, I found myself far less willing to hand it over for a consumer good that I really didn't need.

I found that having a pile of cash on hand was empowering. I "could" buy what I may want, but I didn't really want anything. I preferred the security of cash on hand.

Later on I started looking for ways to increase that cash and found a few. Buy low sell high and the stock market has many safe investments that pay well.

All the while I worked hard and enjoyed the many simple things in life that were inexpensive or free. Reading, swimming, walking, learning to play a musical instrument, cooking nice meals, yakking in a coffee shop all fun and all entertaining ... all cheap or free.

Nowadays, the pile of cash is high enough that I can buy whatever I want and do whatever I want without seriously diminishing the pile of cash.

You don't have to be rich to live well, and you don't have to live in poverty just because you don't have much money.

It's all about attitude.

For many low-income earners, a widescreen TV is "essentially and fundamentally the only entertainment," says Peel Family Services' Triantafillou. "How sad is that? I don't doubt for a minute, if they had the means they'd find other entertainment."

Wow. How far have we come as society, when these words actually hit a printed page?

Words escape me.

I've always believed that poverty is very often the cause, not the result of, a lack of money.
As Vitruvius points out, the lady has not a money problem, but a spiritual one.

Yeah Kate, let's put "these people" these poor people on cattle cars and ship 'em off to camps somewhere, learn 'em the meaning of money so they can handle money like you and your friends in the "real" world.

grrrr!
Listen up you twisted little man, I was the working poor - singer mother, mainly due to many surgeries, nonetheless I never took welfare, but I did ask for subsidized housing, esh, What a disaster!

I would be woken up frequently at midnight to 4:am with my partying neighbours... while I was trying to sleep so I could work the next day.
One day I happened to go to my home during my work day, all the neighbours who didn't work were on their front lawns drinking beer and smoking pot! And the on site maintanence man was an abusive drunk, cursing his wife at night when he was drunk... calling her a 'c*nt' etc...(try explaining that to your nine year old daughter who never heard that word before)

They (the non working ones) all had newer furniture, vehicles, allowances etc. Many times the government would pay for furnishing a whole home for a non-working mom, only to see the whole place trashed within a few months. (I could ONLY afford second hand - for just about everything - including an really old console tv, but it worked for four years! Even had to get my office clothes second hand!)
No prescription - medication allowances for either of us either. Nor dental or eyeglasses...

It is exactly the 'delayed gratification' as mentioned above, if you don't earn it you can't appreciate it's value.

And the johns of the world would like us to help "his poor friend" who never bothered to get a paying job to afford his housing but you think we should foot the bill?

Nuts to that! Or hey john my new glasses are going to cost $1,000.00 (again) I have very poor eyesight...
YOU gonna help me?
Come on John cough it up!
My daughter will go without something as I have to have this visual aid...as I can't even get around my home without them.

(* 8 and 9 on that RX scale)

the poorest 20 per cent, approximately 2.6 million households, had a net worth of $34 billion but their debts totalled $40 billion.

"This is the only group where the debt is bigger than the (net) value of the assets," says Roger Sauvé, a consultant who prepared the report.

Somebody doesn't understand the meaning of the phrase "net worth". Net worth is, uh, "net" - of liabilities. It's assets minus liabilities (or at least it was back when I was studying accounting). More likely, the group has assets of $34 billion and debts of $40 billion, for a net worth of negative $6 million.

On the subject of many of the previous comments, I have no television, no cell phone, a DVD player only because a CD/ROM drive in a PC is ipso facto a DVD player, no iPod, and no MP3 player. I drive a ten-year-old Corolla. I'm definitely NOT poor. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the fact that I'm not poor is, at least in part, a result of the fact that I haven't felt the need to spend money on things like a television or a new BMW.

Kate, Just a comment on the Vanier report. "Net worth" is the value calculated by comparing assets to liabilities (debts). If low income families have a net worth of $34 Billion, that is after $40 Billion in debt has been deducted, not before.

BTW, I work in credit/Accounts Receivable

There is no reason to ship them anywhere for re-education. All one has to do is simply leave them alone and the marketplace will give them all the education that they need. Cutting these folks off from the law of cause and effect just will not work.

Show some sympathy people. I still remember the day I suffered a home invasion at the hands of a 55" plasma screen -- knocked on the door, forced its way in and wouldn't leave 'till I bought it.
Seriously, I actually watch a 26". When I was a rural GP, I made several house calls to people on disability who were living in far bigger homes, in far nicer areas, with far better furnishings and appliances than I had. They'd moan incessantly about the costs of prescriptions while reaching for the pack of cigarettes. Likewise several retirees who complained that they actually had to pay for their prescription medicines which they were picking up before they climbed into their Winnebago to head down to their second home in Arizona for the winter. The word "priorities" seems to have been written out of many people's lexicons.

Also recall reading an article from Halifax a year or more ago, about this young mother who, while not working was attending a government education program on a part time basis. She went and got a dog from the local SPCA, then a year later the dog developed sever gum problems requiring the removal of it's teeth!
So she was in conflict with SPCA about paying for the care of HER dog.
She stated: "They should have known my financial situation BEFORE they gave me the dog."

Classic example of what this post is about IMHO.

This story is suppose to make us feel sorry for the family?

They made some stupid choices, and now have to live with them.

If this family is the face of poverty in Canada, then Canada is doing well. All they need is a grade 5 math course, and some common sense and they will be well on their way to recovery.

These folks. Those folks. Kate's game: identify a group. Them. Those Muslims. Those Leftards. Those people, if they lived in the "real world" (translation: if they agreed with my world view...) they would understand. Folks in the real world just want the right to hunt small animals. Particularly colourful ones. Have a nice day Kate.

John Daly and Johnny Maudlin are the same person. Its like he might have some personality disorder, thinking he's some super lefty out to save the world, but he keeps forgetting who he is.
John, did you lose your pills? should we call someone for help for you? Reply as John Daly if you understand.

Mr. Maudling, you forgot "identify a failed culture", and "identify a corrupt regime", and "identify charlatans", "identify fraud artists", "identify incompetent judiciaries", "identify moral bankrupts", etc.

Kate did not mention your group johnny girl,asshats.

"colourful" heh, you bet!

My colour, obvious olive skinned. So's the kid and she's beautiful! Has been pointed out to me my whole life.

All my sibs are darker though if that helps the johnny's of the world.

Even nurses would ask, do you tan?
LOL like I could afford THAT luxury...gees.

Oh sure, even my language is considered 'colourful' at times and when appropriate.
Mainly towards the ones who throw sharp sticks down at this small animal.

The same person?What a pathetic sock puppet.

Johnny, I know it is hard for you being a leftard and all, but try to understand. People go to work, to buy goods and services. They get so much for a paycheque each week. A sensible person tends to take care of their physical needs first, such as food and shelter. The fluffy stuff, like a large screen tv, a vacation in Paris, a case of beer and good herb, are secondary. They are not needs, but wants. You can live without them. I know that common sense is a dirty word in leftard world, and the belief that governments will always take care of you, is embedded. Everything has a cost to it Johnny. Everytime you let the government wipe your ass, they are taking control of you Johnny. You might like that Johnny, being one of the kept people, but it has price Johnny. They own you, you are kept man.

Well put Honey Pot!

It's way better not to be beholding to those who consider you beneath them...even if you don't have a flashy tv and all the bling bling things.

I don't have credit card debt. Have car payments and usually bills AND the kid's future in my hands! :)
I happily give up anything for her, (well except the glasses thing) and she works as well as goes to school full time.

But Johnny(s) I really really need these damn glasses so what do you say, float me a free plug like your non working musician friend, k?

...yeah, like that's gonna happen! lol

Good post Kate and good comments all.
Daly you need to grow up along with the folks who find themselves in the unfriendly position of running out of financial rope while dangling on the brink of financial abbyss.
I am pushing 60yrs and have been without an income for the past 10 yrs...yes I too am one of the unfortunate "life ain't fair" handicapped (car accident,neurological damage)people who aren't able to meaningfully work for a living.
I don't collect ANY disability $$ and I don't intend to. My wife brings home $30K a year,and we live reasonably well on that sum. The trick is and was NOT being in debt and living within our means.
To those sceptics who can't figure it out(no names mentioned Mr Daly),I suggest they reread the comments above...its all there.
Someone above said Its Attitude and yes it is because attitude is the paintbrush with which we colour our lives.
I have good days and not so good but Life is Good.

Have a good day...stay out of needless debt.

I know that Toronto is expensive, but since when does an income of $ 50,000 put you into the 'working poor' category? This family's income was cut in half by an unfortunate event, but instead of cutting back, they continued living the same lifestyle ($ 3,800 for a TV, plus how much in interest on top of that?).
What bothered me about the article is the implication, repeated over and over again, that if you get into debt buying luxuries you cannot afford, IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT! It's the fault of the stores, who should have refused to sell you the stuff, and the financial institutions, who should have refused to extend credit to you, since you cannot afford it...
Oh wait, if they did refuse to sell you the stuff or extend credit to you, they'd be discriminating against you on the ground of social status! That would be illegal! In fact, you could haul them in front of a HRC!
So, it's up to you to assume responsibility for your own financial mistakes...but wait, that's contrary to liberal ideology! After all, you're a victim - and victims cannot possibly be responsible for their situation! And besides, you're entitled to have all the same goodies as someone earning three times your income. Anyone who tells you that you should be buying essentials before luxuries and sticking to a budget is obviously mean-spirited, judgmental and ...worst of all...(shudder) conservative!

Maudlin, Daly,

Just how mentally deficient do you have to be to assume that some idiot who buys a $3800 TV they can't afford deserves sympathy instead of a kick in the ass?

Seriously. Are you retarded? 50k isn't poor, and blowing money you don't have on frivolous spending isn't victimhood.

My wife and I make several times what these two twits make and we could buy about 6 of our TV's for the price of the one these idiots bought. I drive a 14 year old car (which I refuse to replace until it dies) not because I couldn't buy another one but because I don't spend extra money on a quickly depreciating asset unless I have to. My wife's car is 6 years old. We live in a 1400 square foot home because a bigger one just costs more to finance, heat, pay taxes on, etc. - not to mention it's more space to clean and furnish. That's living within your means. All of this means we save. As a result of our savings, the government decides we need to be punished for this responsible behaviour in the form of higher taxes. When we retire, we will receive less of our money back in government retirement benefits which will be generously provided to those like these twits who don't save for their own retirement.

Our system rewards poor behaviour and discourages - and even punishes - responsible behaviour. The acknowledgement and recognition of this fact is apparently limited to conservatives.

These people are where they are because they deserve to be. They did it to themselves, did it unnecessarily and you talk like we're nazis for pointing out the bad behaviour like there should be a government program to bail out the irresponsible (to add to the already over-generous subsidies to stupid that already exist.)

Yup, you're both leftards.

Thanks for the expressions of concern. I have not lost my pills. Yet. Barbara (and others who subscribe to ideas about "real" worlds...) are you seriously trying to suggest this debt problem is monopolized by "those" low income folks? Jesus! Never heard of a business man declaring bankruptcy, protecting personal assets in the process. Not trying to save the world, just here to remind you Kate is enabling you to feel better about yourself by identifying someone else to feel better than.

I mean, who exactly gets to belong to the group inside the margins? Female hockey helmet painters who show dogs in live in Saskatchewan?

Warwick; what group do you belong to, please? I would really like to know about "you" people.

"This is nothing more than people exercising there right to be victims, I will exercise my right to ignore them."

If only it was that easy, I have a hard time ignoring the deductions on my paycheck. What are we going to do when all of the boomers are past their best before date. Their political clout and their "me me me" attitude are going to break us all.

This John Daly/Johnny Maudlin is the same self righteous piece of rat dung who cannot find a moral difference between Canadian soldiers and the Taliban head cutter they are hunting.

He is filth, and probably mentally disordered to boot.

Shows brilliant understanding of the concept of 'net.' Last time I checked: gross - debt/costs = net. That would make their net worth -6 billion.

Moving on, I have no sympathy to waste on people who ruin themselves with self inflicted wounds, be they physical or economic. I save it for those who are crushed by genuine accidents.

As to this business of lending to the "poor", if you start following the money chain back up hill, you'll discover a whole industries devoted to keeping these people in debt to the eyes. The auto industry, for example. The consumer products industry, for another.

Joke being, "the poor" DON'T PAY THE MONEY. They default. Go bankrupt. Do a moonlight flit. Go to jail. Die. Whatever. But pay they don't.

That's what this ABCpaper business is all about. Since the 1980's banks and other lenders have been packaging this "toxic waste" debt and -selling it- to people who think the hight interest rate is worth the risk.

They were wrong, eh? Who's finally paying the piper? Everybody. Me. As bloody well usual.

"I mean, who exactly gets to belong to the group inside the margins? Female hockey helmet painters who show dogs in live in Saskatchewan?"
There we have it folks...Daly suffers that 'left out feeling', and now we know he can't paint and his dogs lost at the show.Hang in there Daly...hey have you tried to fit in at Kinsella's?

Let's watch for more news from the Social Justice Reporter, Tanya Telaga. Could be entertaining. Wonder if she has tea with Olivia and Jack?

Progressives just see the world differently than conservatives or libertarians. Progressives want to break down all issues into victims and oppressors. Conservatives and libertarians favor personal choice and personal responsibility.

In this case (according to progressives), the banks and businesses are oppressing these poor victims by extending them credit and goods. Therefore the victims deserve to be excused and compensated for this offense.
The conservatives may sympathize with these people but also realize that the responsibility and solution is up to the individuals involved not the government. If you want better outcomes, make better choices.

"Stupid is as stupid does!"

They should bring back the old movies they showed in the 50's to high school students such as this one, "Your Thrift Habits" (1948)
http://www.archive.org/details/YourThri1948
It's not rocket science!

"Warwick; what group do you belong to, please? I would really like to know about "you" people."

I thought I spoke in plain English but apparently not clear enough.

The group I belong to in this situation is the group of people who DO NOT spend more than I can afford and who DO NOT then whine and cry that I'm a victim because I put myself in a bad position.

I'm a member of a group which lives within my means and doesn't think blatant stupidity should warrant a government program.

I'm quite aware of what group you belong to, leftard.

To John Daly - no, I don't think the debt problem is monopolized by low-income earners. I've known several high-income professionals who've had to declare bankruptcy because they spent, spent, spent. And I'll bet you feel terribly sorry for the family which blew $ 3,800 on a TV, but not for a doctor who took too many vacations and bought too many cars.
However, we all have to live within our means, no matter how much or how little we earn, and not blame others for our problems. Look for solutions to our problems and learn to make responsible decisions - that is the true meaning of empowerment, which you seem to deny low-income earners.

Hey Johnny Asshat, not that Kate needs anyone to defend her (she DID wipe the floor with you, however). Although I can't speak for Kate, nor for anyone else here, I have absolutely NO PROBLEM in declaring that I AM 'better than' the two in the article. (Financial responsiblity speaking...perhaps they are better square dancers than my wife and I)

Simple cause and effect, they lived beyond thier means by exercising irresponsible judgment and fell on thier faces. I don't feel sorry for them. The husband's condition, however, is unfortunate but not the end of the world.

FYI, I also suffer with a sciatic nerve condition like the husband does, which at times can be incredibly painfull. I work out 5 to 6 days a week for 1.5 hours and this helps quite a bit.

I have a new motorhome, a (small) house almost paid for, just bought a new Toyota Camry a few weeks ago and have my eye on a $3000.00 Nikon D-300. I have no cedit card debt, but my RBC Avion Visa is going to get me to the Dominican next winter because I pay off all of my purchases BEFORE the end of the month. I also have a 42" Plasma tv and a fair chunk in RSP's. If I sound like I'm tooting my horn I AM and frankly I don't give a rat's ass if you don't like my 'tone' because I'm prod of my acomplishments, both material goods and a good home life with a well adjusted responsible teen age son I will never have to worry about.

All of my purchases have been well thought out and painstakenly researched. Although I could pick up the new Nikon today, I'm concentrating now on getting a few more bucks in the bank before I do this. I don't exactly NEED it right now, my point and shoot digital will suffice until then.

Being self-employed like Kate and many others here,I work countless hours and weekends and have no company pension to look forward to. It was a lifestyle choice, just like that couple chose to buy the big tv and furniture. Thanks to the Alberta Advantage I'll probably pay the Camry off next month. I paid CASH for my motorhome and make no apologies that I work hard for what I have.

Aside from a piddly Canada Pension which probably won't exist when I turn 65 in 22 years (and pay a big chunk for every year at tax time) I refuse to be a burden on anyone. I try my damndest to make good choices because every choice has a consequence, either positive or negative.

On that note, stop blubbering, no one likes a sissy. This is Kate's house, if you're going to come here and get all pissy pants over us 'mean-spirited' conservatives, perhaps you'd feel more at home over at Kinsella's hovel or some 'progreesive' crybaby, world-owes-me-a-living, this-isn't-fair stich and bitch blog.

these people are not poor

My wife is an absolute pitbull when it comes to spending, if the bank owes us $5 she is on to them. We have zero debt outside of our mortgage, which is coming down nicely. If you are a spender, marry a saver and learn to compromise, thanks to my wife we are putting away a good amount of money.

I read once in a Ric Edelman book that "Poor is a state of mind, broke is a state of wallet. You can fix being broke, it's not so easy to fix being poor." How can these people be considered poor when they make 50K?
When my wife and I bought our first house five years ago, we bought much less than we could afford at the time on our two salaries, knowing that in a few years we would start our family and our income would be reduced by my wife's salary. People need to plan their futures better and take a little responsibility for their actions. It's not rocket surgery.

Colin,

Our wives must be related. Mine has the same attitude. Her chequebook is the 'other' family Bible!

Wouldn't the paper know better than to choose this particular couple? They are not a good example of poverty. They're not a good example of anything.

Why would someone go on permanent disability for a condition related to sciatica? Right at the moment, I am in excruciating pain from a pinched sciatic nerve. I'm receiving treatment which is helping and take codeine to get me through this rough patch. O.K., I'm not employed, but live alone and the doctor hasn't mentioned home care.

Their spending habits are ridiculous, but - permanently disabled? If he is, then I'm insisting on home care.

This reminds me of a neighbor who drove a bus in a relatively large city in Ontario ( ... no not the center of the socialist universe Toronto ).

One day he remarked to me that he could always tell when the welfare checks were mailed or handed out . I asked him why , and he said that the number of riders on his bus route jumped on that particular day and the most popular stop was the beer store ... not the grocery store !

You said it Brian. My dad drove a cab and could tell you the same stories: grocery store to stock up on chips and pop, followed by the beer store, all with dad's meter running.

Yep, your hard earned tax dollars at work.

I have sympathy for low-income people who have problems meeting basic living expenses so I don't begrudge subsidized housing and daycare. I do have a problem with people who live beyond their means, spending money they don't have on things they don't need and then try to put the blame elsewhere.

You can not be a victim if you have volunteered.

I'm working about 10hrs a week overtime so that I can take home a little over 50K to my family. Our financial plight is a bit better than when I was going to school and working part time. We spend more than we should on things like a 32" LCD TV ect...

This winter my wife went to Mexico with her sisters because we couldn't both afford to go and she deserves it. Unfortunately because of our naivety my wife called home collect often at $20+ /min(it makes me sick just thinking about it). Who is to blame? Me? My Wife? George W. Bush?

I guess it doesn't matter, when we got our $1000 phone bill something had to be done. Instead of phoning a reporter, we cut off our TV programming witch saves us about $150.00/mo (sound familiar). In the grand scheme of things it is not a big sacrifice; but, for the first time in 20yrs I've missed the March Madness tournament, and am missing the NBA & NHL playoffs for the first time ever. The bright side is the bill is down to $300 and getting smaller, where if we wouldn't have cut our bill I don't think we'd have made a dent. In a few months we can re subscribe to our cable company and get their $50/mo sign up bonus. Bonus (I love silver linings)

Frank said WRT New York "If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere"; my spin is this “This is Canada, if you can't make it here, you can't make it anywhere".

We are not poor, we are fortunate!

I rotated and extended my sciatic joint during martial arts,causing nerve and ligament damage,total time off work,six months.I just finished a very painful session with an ISM therapist where she sticks needles deep into my lower back to stimulate the muscles,oh yeah,I,m still working tomorrow.All in how you approach the matter.And sitting on your duff is watching the idiot box is probably the last thing you want to do for your sciatic,that is if you really do want to recover.

Brian...in the hood that I grew up in there was an actual line up outside of the bank running all the way down the street,unheard of any other day other than welfare day.First stop was the beer store to pay off your debt and to stock up.Second stop was to the local coke dealer to pay off your debt and to stock up.The groceries and other essentials can come later,a vicious circle passed on from one generation to the next,right to this very day.

Kathy Shaidle: I'll bet you your dad was white too, eh?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...if you really want to see what racism is about, you have to observe a liberal. Our self-hating friend Maudlin/Daly is a perfect example. I pity him.

Gellen re your pinched sciatic nerve, are you on a statin drug to lower cholesterol like Lipitor, Crestor, Zocor.

Years ago. . . Many yeas ago, I rented a self storage unit for business supplies. I kept personal extra tools and STUFF there too.

Stuff turned out to be a burden around the neck. Stuff I may use. Stuff that was costing a monthly fee.

I was not too bright then.

Have not rented a unit for 25 years now.

Consider the vast numbers of self storage warehouses that are full today. 10 at least in this small town.

Guess many are like I was. Not very bright.

Better to give the stuff away to friends, than to store it. = TG

What an appallingly racist thing to say, Mr. Maudlin.

Oh BOOOO HOOOO ..... I am almost out of tears now.
How will I weep for poor Brenda Martin?

a friends money burned a hole in his pocket, he drank, he smoked, gambled, bought musical instruments on sight alone(he was a good organist). After getting married they bought a small house, new furniture, appliances, etc. and were over 100k in debt and He wanted to move into a new bigger house. She put the skids on and took away his chequing acct and gave him an allowance monthly. Last time i saw him he asked to borrow $20. sheesh.

Social Justice: the stubborn application of unworkable solutions to imaginary problems.

:)

Ah I see. If you can't argue back, play the race card. Nice one Johnny.

YOU are one of the reasons why racism is still an issue today.

"The Oxleys can't afford either to rent or go to the movies. But Mary's line of credit is maxed out at $19,000 because of a used vehicle she bought. To make things easier for Don, at home all day, and to give the family a source of entertainment two years ago, she bought a large-screen plasma TV and made payments on it for two years."

"You have to have some entertainment for him," she says.

The $3,800 TV is now paid for. But they still have their monthly cable bill of $176, which includes the Internet, cell and home phone."

CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS? THEY PAID $3800 for a TELEVISION! Most people in the world do not earn that much in a year!!!

I make nearly a 100,000 a year, but my television cost $500. It is a flat screen. Never in my wildest dreams would I dump 4 grand on a television. And these people consider themselves poor? They're crazy.

I cannot believe I pay taxes to support low-lifes like this.

"she bought a [$3,800] large-screen plasma TV and made payments on it for two years."

This probably puts them in the top 0.5% of all Canadians.

That tv cost more than my van.

"then". I can't afford correct spelling either.

thee lefties and the OLD moral equivlancy argument

jonny, and business person going bankrupt ain't nuthin like the fools in the article (which I didn't read this time, as I'v read it a 100 times before)

the people who posted in here today demonstrate that lefties ENABLING of lossers just ain't the cure, it's attitude that matters!!!

"then". I can't afford correct spelling either.

Posted by: multirec at April 22, 2008 8:53 PM "

No,multirec. You had it right the first time :)

Daily/Maudlin....if YOU feel so bad about the p&*s poor decisions these folks made,why don't YOU help them out? OH wait. You're a leftard. Sorry. My bad.

Thanks Justthinkin, it just didn't look right.

Kate: I admire your honestly in admitting that you "sneer" at poor people. You sneer at lots of people. As a matter of fact, when you use the word sneer you have gone a long way toward describing the raison d' etre of your website...

It's all about making yourself feel better by comparison, isn't it? You reveal plenty, as well, when you admit you come to your positions by comparing everything with how it is for you. Because clearly Kate, it's all about you.

Anyway, you have made a rare public appearance at the zoo, so thanks and we'll see you in the comics again, real soon I hope.

Posted by: Johnny Maudlin at April 22, 2008 12:21 PM

Actually, you're reading the page back-to-front. It's the liberals and leftists that insist on pigeonholing people into designated special interest groups and minorities, all the better to entrench victimhood status in them.

You see people of colour, gender orientation, aboriginal backgrounds. We see folks who should all be treated equally, without giving special "victims' rights" requiring lavish handouts or changes to thousands of years of western culture.

But go ahead, dummkopf, continue to convince yourself it's those on the right who are the true bigots; however, your projection is showing, Toots.

mhb23re
at gmail d0t calm

Aren't we a 'johnny-sock puppet' short here today? Usually they appear in threes no?

Must be still in line up at the beer, er grocery store, sneering at the over-worked clerk.

John Daly is Oprah, no Doctor Ruth, Joyce Brothers?
You're lucky to have a psychiatrist of such caliber available to you Kate.
BTW, you seem to sneer a lot, Doctor Daly says so three times in his first two lines of his critique, I'd work on that.

No, Tranio, I'm not on any of those.
Any suggestions would be welcomed.
This is the first time I've had this particular pain as it is a branch of the sciatic nerve (so my chiropractor says) and it goes down from the groin. Wicked.
(But my head is held high. I got the sinkful of dishes washed tonight, with no help from the government.)

I used to sling beer at a pub in a small logging town that I moved to because I was in love, it was the only job in town and paid $5.00 an hour due to the recession. One of the drunks was handing out money and buying booze for his friends, which was unusual as he rarely had much money. His wife came in and looked at him, then realized he had spent their grocery money. She started beating the crap out of him right there and then. I took my sweet time calling the Mounties. I love beer, but it’s the first thing off the list if I don’t have money.

John:

We have the right to criticize and "sneer" these self-inflicted "poor" families. Why? Because they continue to make poor and ignorant choices that put them in that situation, and then they have the audacity to cry about it afterwards.

Budgeting your income is one of the responsibilities a person must learn when they reach adulthood. It's not like anyone is asking these "poor" families to do something unreasonable.

Oh, but we can't expect them to be held accountable for their own choices can we John? We have to be nice to them and help them out so they can continue to make more poor decisions in the future. God forbid they face any consequences for their choices in life.

Gellen, may I suggest a colon exam, seriously.
I had some wicked pain starting on the one side in the groin area and it went down my leg, turns out I had a rather large polyp that needed to be removed, immediately the pain was gone.
The surgeon stated that it would have turned to cancer eventually AND recommended an exam every five years, (oh yuk, but I will comply.)

Like many other people on this group I was taught not to spend money I didn't have. I can think of one time that it was a mistake and that was when I had the possibility of going into debt to buy a house in Vancouver in the early 1980's.

$3800 is more than I paid for my last vehicle. For years the TV's that we had were retrieved from dumpsters and it never ceased to amaze me that people would throw out a perfectly good TV because just one tube had blown or some other equally simple electronic problem. I think the most I've paid for a TV is $200. I also have rabbit ears and no cable. My DVD player is my computer which is also my CD player. My mp3 player is my Palm pilot which I also use for work. I do have a weakness for books and computers and have lost track of how many computers I own but most were purchased used or built out of inexpensive boards. I've stopped buying books because I've been told by my wife that an existing book has to go out everytime a new one comes in.

When I was in medical school I was suprised at the number of students who would obtain student loans and use them to buy a new vehicle rather than using the money for living expenses. I was lucky that I had part-time consulting work that I did for all except my last year and kept my student loan debts to an absolute minimum.

Patients of mine knew not to ask me for notes for things like a new bed for "medical" reasons. The majority of people who I see on welfare are completely incapable of budgeting and are ready to rant for hours about the unfairness and stinginess of govenment instead of looking at their own behavior. Patients seem to expect that all drugs will be provided to them for free and are unwilling to spend any money for non-covered medications even though they might help them get back to work. They, of course, continue to smoke and can't cancel their cable TV which would give them the money needed.

I also know doctors who are incapable of budgeting, but for them it's just a matter of working more hours to pay for their spending excesses. Considering that there is such a shortage of doctors in Canada at this time this is a viable albeit flawed solution to a problem which would be more simply solved just by not buying things when the impulse hits one.

Incidentally, I also pay for everything in cash (except for internet purchases) and I find myself making far more late-night impulsive internet purchases on my credit card than cash purchases.

Being self-employed I know that I have nothing to fall back on when I get sick so one of the first things I did when I started practicing medicine was to ensure I had enough socked away to live on for 1 year if necessary. Over the years this has grown to a 2 year cushion and that is with maxing out RRSP contributions every year.

I have no sympathy for anyone who gets themselves into debt through poor planning. Unfortunately, that is the reason that for >90% of the people in Canada who are "poor".

What I forgot to mention is that one of the first things I do in patients who overspend is to give them the mood disorders questionaire (MDQ) to screen for bipolar disorder. I'll also go over the MDQ results with their spouse to see if they would agree about the severity of their problems. People, when hypomanic, tend to make impulse purchases which might be way beyond their means. Bipolar2 occurs in about 5% of people and is easily treated with mood stabilizers. I also start looking for Bipolar Disorder in people who have gambling problems.

I've had a hard time accepting the so-called "poverty line" since about 1994. At the time, between my wife and I, our combined income put us well below the poverty line for a family of five, yet we bought a $130,000 house with just under 25% down from the equity in the old house, plus were able to finance a new minivan- $19000- with 0 down, and still made our payments. Sure it was lean, but it still makes me doubt the alleged poverty numbers. Right now, we have a lot of un-necessities, but they can all go by the wayside if they have to.

'Late to this thread, but I've been out making a living to pay the bills--which do get paid every month: no credit card debt.

Like many others on this thread, it often means cutting back and living simply--you know, a DVD and bottle of wine at home instead of dinner out and going to a movie; heck, that's often "a holiday" at our house.

Because we live more or less frugally and have almost put two children through university (with their help; they both have paying jobs), it's hard not to be pi**ed off by the huge numbers of entitled laggards in Canada who genuinely feel that the rest of us "owe" them a living, smokes, beer, big colour TV, cable, and all.

If that puts me in the sneerers' corner, tough. Here, have a hankie, John Daly. 'Wouldn't want your dainty sensibilities to be offended. And there we go again: someone's offended. Well, too bad. 'Get a life.

If anybody's interested,all you have to do is re-read the sockpuppets line of "reasoning" and you have the answer to most of the problems with debt. But then these commies-in-waiting can't successfully implement their world order without making people,especially the stupid people,dependent on government. To them,the whole idea of personal responsibility is repugnent.
Just one question for them. When everybody is happily living of the welfare system,who is going to pay for that system?

Idd, thanks for mentioning this to me. I already have to have regular colonoscopies because cancer was found in the neck of a polyp years ago. I'm due for another next yr.
I've managed to get a doctor's appt for tomorrow and will mention it to him.

Gellen, :)

My best wishes that's it's just a pinched nerve.

"When everybody is happily living of the welfare system,who is going to pay for that system?"

The evil American multinational corporations! Like, duh?!

There's two kinds of poverty - a temporary condition due to outward circumstances (like being displaced from your property by war and having to start over with only the shirt on your back in a country where you do not even speak the language) and a permanent reliance on other people's money in the form of Welfare. The first is an external obstacle that is overcome by hard work and thriftiness.

The second form of poverty is caused by a chain of bad decisions and an attitude of entitlement to be saved from the worst consequences of those bad decisions.

There's a simple anti-poverty formula that works for any class or race that follows it:

Get as much education as you can.

Do not have children until you're married.

Try to stay married.

Work steadily, at any job.

Stay away from criminals and criminal activity.

John and his fellow liberals follow and teach this formula to their own children but when it comes to "the poor", suddenly it's inhumane to have the same expectations of them???

What's inhumane is forcing people who have worked hard all their lives and made sacrifices (like no plasma TV's) to support others who refuse to work hard or do without comforts. Where's the equality crowd when it comes to divying up the work and responsibility pie?

There should be no welfare except for the truly incapacitated. It should all be workfare; if nothing else, then cleaning roads and parks or the homes of the taxpayers funding you. And no work is demeaning as the assbackwards libs have termed it. Being a permanent parasite is what's demeaning. Self-respect comes from the fruits of one's own effort, not scamming someone else's labor long term. That's no better than stealing.