Thanks so much for posting this Kate.

Also posted at Hotair.com, Jihadwatch.org and LGF.

Bloggers - Doing the work the MSM won't dare do!

more proof that islam is truly evil

Will Muslims now riot / seethe over their own words?

Sounder, only where told to do so by their repressive, tyrannical governments. You really think they have spontaneous demonstrations in Iran? Syria?

Doubt it, eh?

Very powerful. The leftards that denouce the obvious are no different than those that denounces the concern leveled at the Nazi's before all hell broke loose in the thirties. Common sense has to rise to the top here people and we must place pressure on the governments of the day to keep these radical Imams out of this country and expell and take away citizenship of any muslim that espouses this hatred. No questions, no appeals, ship them to Iran or some uninhabited island in the middle of the pacific. If they hate us and our way of life then ship them out, cause I'm not converting. If anyone even jokingly talks about Jihad, your gone, just like at the airport if you joke about a bomb or the like. We have to adopt a zero tolerance for this stink.
Just one more thing, I think that we may have to develop a stomach for carpet bombing and if innocents get hurt or killed thats too bad. If they didn't like what these moron are doing then stand up to them, either you are with us or against us. A little harsh maybe but tough love is harsh.

Over one million views when I played it. How many by tomorrow?

Will Harper and the CPC take heed?
Seriously doubt it.
The Toronto Terrorists will be found innocent and victims of a Christian society.A group hug for all.

This video shows many of the reasons why I make donations to PizzaIDF.org.

Thank you Kate!

Well, your turn in the star chamber is sure to come now.

Democracies have historically paid a very high price for being slow to awaken to the fact that tyrants of all stripes mean what they say, unpalatable as their statements may be.

With tears in my eyes, I say "Thank you, Kate". I Pray it will be played and replayed around the world continuously. I see mention of it screening across Fox News so hope Beck and Hannity air it.

It is possible that 1215 knows what he is talking about (although I doubt it), but he should be aware that there is a large number of Christians who know exactly what is going on. And Harper, you can be sure, is one of them.

If the Liberals get in in Canada and Obama in the U.S., God help us all.

Excellent short film. It should be very interesting to see what transpires over the next few days. I wonder if it will help convince more people that these dudes are nuts. Not holding my breath over that one...

Please, Kate. Please keep at least the link on your main Webpage. Please, for the sake of freedom. Please, for the sake of Canada. Please, for you and us -- and me. Please.

If only it was an exaggeration!

Bravo!

Now watch the movie "Obsession".

Propaganda worth of Goebbels. Juxtapose bad English translations from the Quran, taken completely out of context, with images of terrorism. Accompany with tragic classical music and quotes from radical nutjobs (and who knows how accurate those translations were). Reminded me immediately of Nazi propaganda or a Michael Moore movie. Surprised there weren't images of Arabs intercut with rats.

The movie starts with a bad translation of Sura 8 Verse 60. The Quran is written in Arabic of course, and there are many bad English translations out there.

Here's a better translation:

[8:60] You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.

and the next sentence:

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient

But so what? Doesn't mean anything unless you know what the whole chapter (sura) is about. I would recommend reading the whole thing if a particular sentence worries you.

It never ceases to amaze me how radical jihadis and Muslim haters use this same method to justify themselves.

Ah. Just did a post, myself, on that after getting an email tip.

Explosive stuff.

Inconvenient truth.

OH, and more background on the film, FYI:

http://europenews.dk/en/node/8787

Belisarius, you mistranslated 8:61 yourself. Where you claim it says "peace" it means "submission to Allah". Look, these people actually mean what they say.

I'd read it all too, if I was certain I wouldn't puke on my keyboard.

There seems to be a shortage of "good" translations... and all the spin that would imply.

Oh Belisarius, you turncoat - you once worked for the good guys a few centuries ago.

"Bad Translations of the Quran"?.

Can you suggest a *good* translation of the Koran? Iwill read and quote from it.

You employ the standard muslim response - "When we say kill the infidel, that's only stories children. What we really mean is "love" the infidel".

Of course, muslims insist the Koran must be read in its "original" arabic which no one understands, except a few arab scholars. When, for example, were all the little dots and apostrophes added, that change the meaning so much - a couple of hundred years later?

Your "religion" is a fraud. It is a totalitarian ideologogy created by teh followers of a psychopath and should be treated as a malady.

Belisarius said:

"Juxtapose bad English translations from the Quran, taken completely out of context, with images of terrorism. Accompany with tragic classical music and quotes from radical nut jobs (and who knows how accurate those translations were)."

Do you not see the irony in your own statement? I also notice you did not directly address the small fraction of freely available 'religion of peace' terror images in the film. Geez Belisarius, you really are a shiftless apologist.

As for the film, nice imagery to remind us that until the barbarity of Islam is confronted and exorcised, there will never be peace on earth.

I was stunned to read this sentence in the Wikipedia entry:

"Many Dutch people have posted films on YouTube prior to the release of the film apologizing[citation needed] in advance on behalf of the residents of the Netherlands for any offense which the film causes."

How can anyone be so naive? There's not hope for the Netherlands.

The Islamic terrorist gang in Toronto was quoted in the Globe & Mail:

“God willing if we don't get a victory, God willing our kids will get it. If not them, then five generations down somebody will get it …”

The Byzantine empire was slowly beaten back by Mohammedans until it consisted only of its capital city, Constantinople, and a small patch of farmland. This was the center of the Orthodox Christian church. The city was under siege for at least 300 years. Eventually the Byzantines went broke, bankrupt, the Roman pope intervened to prevent any European military aid, a European sold cannon technology to the muslim Ottomans besieging the city, and was the end of the Byzantines, in the year 1453. It was the first time in history a city under siege was brought down by cannons destroying its walls. The Islamic army fought their way into the city and proceeded to torture and kill everyone left alive inside. It took the Islamists centuries but they got to where they wanted to be.

There's lots more interesting history to read. Massive Islamic armies were stopped "at the gates of Vienna" and stopped south of Paris after coming up through Spain. This is all horrifying history, the bloodshed and sacrifice and suffering was epic, staggering.

It is a different world today, but not as much as you would like to think.

Belisarius
Planes crashing into the twin towers, Pearle being beheaded, a woman's lopped off head on the ground, signs (in English) calling for an end to democracy and freedom - actual news footage. REALITY!
Some of it is footage shot by the Islamo-terrorists themselves. You call it propoganda. Well most of it is their own propoganda shot by their own cameramen. And you want to give us your kneejerk comments about bad translation. You call people "Muslim haters." The only thing I've seen is "Jew haters and Freedom haters." You are disgusting for defending this savagery.

Civilizations do not fall simply because the barbarians are at the gates. They fall because people inside open those gates and let them in.

If you want to leave Geert a comment, you can do so here.

abcd @7.53

"stopped before Vienna" - on 11th September, no less.

There is no defense of the behaviour displayed by the people in this film and of Islam. I would suggest you leftards open your frickin eyes and look.

What can we possibly do? Really, what can we do to stop this freight train?
As for Belisarius, I don't know what your problem is, unless you're Muslim. I have Christian Arabic friends, who've been desperate for us to listen to their warnings since years before 9/11, that Muslims are dangerous and must be stopped.

Ed.. just to clarify. That was Eugene Armstrong being beheaded in that clip...

Kate: you're really becoming a bore, are you aware of that? Would you play a filmed depiction of the Book of Judgment on your site? Of course you would not...

You would show a film of American or coalition bombs finding their targets and the brown bodies blown apart? Of course not. Why, Kate?

I just think, after seeing your act here, you are some kind of a coward. Isn't this cowardice to put up this material, designed to provoke maximum disturbance, but to remain hidden yourself. You're not even the messenger, Kate. Not even the mailman. You're a pornographer, Kate. Would your mother and father be proud of what you're doing with your life?

johnny daly~ those 'brown bodies' are usually terrorists who would kill you without the slightest hesitation.

YOU are the bore.

Leave us, Moron.

Belisarius, would you care to put the 'kill the infidels' part of the movie into context for us?

Please do NOT feed the two-bit link whore, John Daly. He posts here hoping that someone, anyone, will go to his silly blogg. He does not get any traffic at his risible excuse for a blogg unless he leaves stupid, childish, asinine, comments on real bloggs.

The religon of peace just hates to see the truth about themselves. Yes they will be boinging in the air with their fists as the have nothing to do and no place to do it in. Its a very good film.

Anyone read some of the Nostradamus interpretations and the Islamic war we should be in right now. Knowing the future can change the future even if it is only an interpretation of a prophet. History is full of prophets, oracles and seers and those who failed to listen. Caesar and the King of Troy for example. How appropriate March 15 just passed.

I wonder what part of the Arabic Koran the little girl got wrong when she referred to Jews as apes and pigs..

Hey John Daly, you forgot to tell Kate that she needs to get laid in your latest rant.. you're slipping boy!

"Would you play a filmed depiction of the Book of Judgment on your site? Of course you would not..."

Daly. Is it possible for you to think before you post? So are you suggesting that those who believe in "The Book of Judgment" are wreaking havoc around the world -as are Muslims. And if they are not-and they are not, you fool, - why the effing stupid attemped equivalence?

Well, John Daly, it's really hard to find current on-film examples to to accompany the Book of Judgements, isn't it? And it's downright impossible to find Christians blustering on about global domination and violence and the necessity of murder to uphold the faith, isn't it John? Wouldn't you agree?

Save yourself the fake outrage. It's comes across every bit as self-righteous and weak as you knew it was when you typed it out.

You know, there were a lot of your ilk around 73 years ago, and I'm sure there'll be more in the years to come. That's just the way it goes when when sanctimony combines with the privilege of peace to create ignorance.

It's a film, John, made by a Dutch fellow whose life is in danger, and whose compatriots have been murdered for the crime of noticing what's being preached in Dutch mosques. What's cowardly about that? What's cowardly about others showing it?
What's your definition of a coward, John?

Thank you Mr. Gain, well said. I was going to respond a while ago, but I noticed my toe nails were getting long.
Priorities...

Belisarius,please explain the Solamin Rushdie event for me, seeing as you are such an expert!!!!

Thank you Lydia, I really wasn't sure, because I found it so unpleasant to look at closely.
Appreciate the correction though.

Belisarius>

It’s views and attitudes such as yours that has placed European countries in their advanced stages of this cancer. That same naïve “tolerance” and equally disturbing denial you have expressed is what we in North America should fear as much as the cancer itself.
You are either a very stupid person unable to grasp the enormity of the Islamic problem in the west or an enemy collaborator of this totalitarian ideology. Possibly you do so unwittingly through your ignorance of Islam or do so deliberately through misdirection and deceit following the teachings of the Qur’an.

"Please do NOT feed the two-bit link whore, John Daly. He posts here hoping that someone, anyone, will go to his silly blogg. He does not get any traffic at his risible excuse for a blogg unless he leaves stupid, childish, asinine, comments on real bloggs."

Sorry terrence, you are wrong. The practice of not feeding the trolls has been practiced - to perfection - by Bush. The result is that the trolls now control the narrative.

The tedious but only road to victory -and it is tedious-is to rebut every stupid comment and lie until they surrender.

um John Daly I believe the correct term is maximum disruption and if you are so incensed and upset by what you see here then go elsewhere. The 8,233,553 comments on this blog suggests that it's not Kate who is the bore John Daly, it's the apologists, the leftards, the people like you John Daly who are truly boring. What does it take to wake you people up? Do you agree it's right and proper to denigrate and murder women? Is it ok by you to behead the people who disagree with your particular point of view? In my world John Daly these things are definitely NOT ok and I know my parents and probably Kate's would agree. What would your mother say John?

Belisarius: I'm curious, do you not see a problem in Europe with Islam?

The Daly nightmare is here in more ways than one.
Back to your cave Daly, say hello to Osama Bin Shittin'.

Belisarius: I'm curious, do you not see a problem in Europe with Islam?

No. I do however think they have a big problem with radical Islam, funded by Wahhabi oil money. It's that poison strain of Islam which is the source of modern terrorism. I do not believe that Islam itself or its practitioners are inherently evil. In fact, I count a number of them as friends and served with many in the CF. I suppose this skews my view somewhat.

The movie itself uses deceptive propaganda methodology, which is my principle criticism.

Alright Belisarius, do you not see a problem with extremist muslims, watered down by the left and observed by indifferent or less concerned muslims who will ultimately object or submit to the fanatics?

Josef Goebbels et al had to stage their anti-jew propaganda.

The moslems are creating all of the material for making people want to dislike them all by themselves. There is a big difference between staged and actually carrying it out.

Oh I forgot, in the fantasy world of the CHRC, "the truth is no defence". Maybe the tards in the CHRC will reconsider that just before their bodyless heads die after receiving the appreciation of their benefactors.

Brave move in showing this Kate.

I got to sick to watch after the beheading though.
It needs to be shown, I,m just to squimish I guess.

If you keep this up you will be in the good company of Ezra Levant & Mark Styne. Truth tellers don't go unoticed in PC Canada.

Brave move in showing this Kate.

I got to sick to watch after the beheading though.
It needs to be shown, I,m just to squimish I guess.

If you keep this up you will be in the good company of Ezra Levant & Mark Styne. Truth tellers don't go unnoticed in PC Canada.

Islam is the most dangerous cult on the planet, wrought with sadistic brainwashed robotic adherents who have been reduced to sub human creeps.
No one can determine what is the difference between radical Islam and moderate Islam.

Calling a religion moderate in the first place means there are other degrees of it and those are the degrees we can now call the scourge of the planet in this 21st century.

They are mad and unfit to be considered part of humanity. The civilized Western world will have to take severe steps to put down these insane creeps who lop heads off and torture fellow humans in the name of their cult.

I dunno,after watching this eye-opening video I feel a raging urge to put on a pair of Brass Knuckles...........

and go beat up a liberal!

Belisarius: "The movie itself uses deceptive propaganda methodology"
Please explain. And not because you "count a number of them as friends and served with many in the CF".
You must remember that there were people who thought and spoke exactly the way you are doing in the 1930s.
Please tell the rest of us why you think this movie has used deceptive propaganda methodology. Many English and Germans were friends (and the Royal family relatives numbering hundreds) in the 30s so having Muslim friends cannot be a serious consideration.
How many Muslims are there serving in the Canadian Forces, by the way? A serious question so I would be interested in your answer.

John Daly @ 8.15

You're not really part of this world, are you? You're a fiction. And what is happening is not real, right? Or is it all just a conspiracy?

Hey, I agree with you that there is a conspiracy to destroy World Trade centers and other American symbols and innocent victims all over the world; mostly muslim victims, if you do the counting, BTW. And do you know who the conspirators are? Islamo-fascists, and I'm being generous here.

You, however, not being able to do basic arithmetic, nor listen to the words of those who are committing and cheerleading these acts, are not of this world. Maybe you are some kind of superior, transcendanmt, ethereal, elf-like being - or maybe just a fool.

Brave move, things CBCpravda would not show while they stuff their site with Omar Khadr and Mama Khadr

CBCpravda ALL Khadr All the Time.

I've never heard of the Book of Judgment.

I know that it is not associated with Christianity in any way, whatever it is.

Maybe if a film-maker would like to film radical, fundamentalists Christians in action, he could film some of my friends in Africa. Some are teaching, some are building, some are working at orphanages; all are loving God and looking forward to Christ's return to establish the kingdom of God.

"I count a number of them as friends and served with many in the CF. I suppose this skews my view somewhat."

The movie itself uses deceptive propaganda methodology, which is my principle criticism.

Posted by: Belisarius at March 27, 2008 9:02 PM

Legions of Muslims in the CF? don't believe you. In fact, I think you are using deceptive propaganda methodolgy. You give yourseld away with this:

"with radical Islam, funded by Wahhabi oil money"

Oh yes, it's all our fault. We corrupted them by purchasing their oil. We should have insisted that they break their backs clearing the land -as we did.

Belarius @9.02

You're employing the same old trick there - it's not islam, just bad muslims. Problem is, the "bad" muslims are quoting the holy book of islam, and the traditions (Hadith), in support of their actions.

Of course, you wouldn't know this because you only read "good" versions of the Koran, and listen to "good" ignorant Saudi imams whose education amounts to quoting the Koran in ancient arabic that no-one understands.

Now go.

Go on.

Piss off!

What are you waiting for? Go!

..Out

When a madman has a knife at your neck it's a little too late to use the Chamberlain technique of appeasement.

just did a quick page thru on the old King James ,and there just aint no "Book of Judgements"

so I thought well he must mean "Judges", well if it is it is about one of the worst parts of history for the joos. they lose most of the battles and Jerusalem gets destroyed.

so I would say as usual you dont know WTF you are talking about.

I wonder aloud what Taliban Jack would say about this video.

Muslims make up about 0.5% of the CF, more in the Reserve. The last ship I served aboard had a crew of 40. Two of them were Muslims. Both volunteered for duty in the Gulf after 9/11, acting as Arabic translators with our Naval task force.

I'll take those guys any day over some of the ignorant fools who are posting here (I mean you, Terry Gain and RW).

Saudi Arabia, the home of Wahhabism, funds most of the most of the mosques in the west. They pay 80% of the mortages of U.S. mosques. Wahhabism, if you were not aware, is the totalitarian, radical strain of Islam which forms the basis of al Qaeda.

If Islam is so bad then why are we bothering with Iraq and Afghanistan? What do you tell the brave Iraqi and Afghan soldiers fighting and dying alongside our troops? Sorry, but you and your religion are evil.

There are more than a billion Muslims in the world. Millions live in the west. Like it or not, we have to find a way to coexist with them. I say that means cutting off Wahhabi money and throwing preachers advocating violence into jail. Encourage democracy. Fight terrorism. The old "Islam is evil" mantra isn't going to accomplish a damn thing.

Richard Ball

The Book of Judgement is the product of a dentist John Ballou Newbrough written in the mid to late 1800's. He supposedly wrote under the influence of spirits (automatic writing) and The Book of Judgement is only part of a much larger book Oahspe. I have no idea why it is even mentioned in this thread as no one takes Oahspe seriously. Well OK maybe a nutbar that takes Edgar Cayce seriously might, but like Cayce no one beyond first year college that even reads it. Which is completely unlike Islam where people take it so seriously that they are willing to kill and be killed in its defence and propagation. We need to have more videos like this one to prove that point despite Terry Gain and Belisarius' protestations.

RW>

“John Daly @ 8.15
You're not really part of this world, are you?”

Actually it’s worse RW, he’s an old hippy! You know, no bathing, lot’s of free love and dope along with hatred of “the man” amongst other drug approved Marxist views.

A liberal poster child that should have the authority to decide how you and your family should embrace a world filled with rivers of milk and honey……….and strawberry fields forever.

I seem to recall -- but maybe it's somebody else -- Belisarius goes to Islam on Line, which I believe is a ME source for "information" on Islam in English for useful idiots. Apology in advance if I'm mistaken.

This "out of context" trope is getting tiresome, eh? Ibn Warrag, Wafa Sultan, Ayaan Hirsi Ali don't think so! Hard to believe it can be said with a straight face.

I didn't expect to be frightened after all the reading I've done on the subject BUT I was frightened.

Of course it's propaganda! It's an essential weapon -- probably the most important one in this long war. We are losing the propaganda war. Israel, for example, is badly outgunned on the propaganda front. They don't even sort out the blood libels; e.g., they had nothing to say to the world about the al Durah affair. Another example: the US has done a poor job getting out new info about Saddam's connections with al Queda.

Remember: demonizing the Hun and the Jap was an important factor in WW2. War is no time for squeamishness, no time for delicacy, no time for nuanced and balanced presentation.

A very good film!

END MUSLIM IMMIGRATION NOW.

"We need to have more videos like this one to prove that point despite Terry Gain and Belisarius' protestations."Posted by: Joe at March 27, 2008 10:06 PM

Duh?

Sorry Terry I miss read one of your posts.

Belisarius: I disagree with you for the simple reason that the written doctrine that Islam is based on is barbaric. Condemning it is no different than condemning Nazis doctrine, Communist doctrine, or any other collectivist, violent, ideology. Don't confuse the condemnation of Islam, with the condemnation of all Muslims.

What would you have said during the cold war if people were bashing Russian communists? Would you condemn people for hating Russians? Or, how about, if we bashed "nazis" in the 40's? Would you condemn people for "hating" Germans?

German soldiers were, by the way, likely the most motivated and skilled of all soldiers to enter battle during WW2 ... so, what's your point; that you'd want German soldiers watching your back? By the way, judging Islam by 2 Muslims you worked with in the CF is racist and bigotted ... knowing 2 or 5 or 10 Muslims doesn't give you nor anyone else a position of authority on Islam. Islam must be judged in historic context.

I think that by isolating the disagreable aspects of Islam to Saudi influence shows incredible lack of knowledge on your part of the Islamic reality historically.

For starters, there has never been a single instance in history where Muslims, when they held a plurality, tolerated as equals non-Muslims. Only under dictatorship or the colonial boot did they do so.

Belisarius ... you don't get it. Get past the average Muslim ... they are no different than the average German, or Italian, or Japanese during WW2 ... they are basically innocent; it's their religion though that is evil.

Finally ... would've you told me, that I've got to get along with communists or nazis during WW2 or the cold war ... that I had no choice but to coexist with them?

Belisarius

Your anecdotal experiences with good Muslims are of limited value in assessing how to combat militant Islam. You might start by being a little more Christian in your approach and not accuse me of saying something I didn't say.

I didn't suggest that most Muslims are evil. Pretending that Islamists don't get their inspiration from the Koran is ridiculous and leaves us poorly equipped to deal with Islamism.

We should have no hesitation in taking issue with any beliefs -whether based on religion or not - that are used to justify killing and terrorizing others who don't share those beliefs.

Joe at March 27, 2008 10:06 PM:

Well, I don't want to be accused of being an anti-dentite.

Belisarius @ 10:05: you say, "There are more than a billion Muslims in the world. Millions live in the west. Like it or not, we have to find a way to coexist with them. I say that means cutting off Wahhabi money and throwing preachers advocating violence into jail. Encourage democracy. Fight terrorism. The old "Islam is evil" mantra isn't going to accomplish a damn thing."

You think that you have a balanced view about all of this, but you miss the whole point of this discussion. Nobody is cutting off foreign money or throwing anybody in jail or encouraging democracy. You're worried about root causes of the problem, but don't acknowledge that Wilder's colleagues ignore that these horrific things are happening at all.

Face the reality that if you were a Dutch parliamentarian with the initiatives listed above you'd be sitting next to Geert Wilder. I don't see why you are so appalled that he's chosen to show a film comprised of real events to communicate how radical Islam and public complacency is ruining their country.

Belisarius: "'Islam is evil' mantra" - no such thing. That this latest evil is being driven by Mohammed's teachings is real and must be addressed.
"Like it or not, we have to find a way to coexist with them." Like it or not, Belisarius, the Muslims you are talking about (in the west and around the world for that matter)have to learn that this is a real threat in the world today and begin to act.
Nazis were Germans (white and mainly Christian) and all of us had to recognize the danger and fight what were considered 'brothers'. We almost left it too late. (You do understand just how close we came to losing that war, don't you?)
When the millions of Muslims who are not terrorists (and do not practice the Koran in the same way the so-called radical Islamists do) stand up and say enough is enough then they will be outnumbered - in the same way the Nazis would have been in Germany in 1938.
It is difficult to believe that someone who served in the military (even the Navy) can have no more inkling of the politics of Islam and the very real threat the practioners of this system pose to all countries of the world than you do. May I ask, were you an officer?
By the way, I didn't ask if the Muslims were Arabs. Possibly you could also enlighten me in this instance. (I have a relative who is very high in your former sphere but will ask you instead.)
May I say, Belisarius, that the clip of the woman wearing a burqha being shot in the head took place in an open arena in Afghanistan and the stands held men who sanctioned this kind of sentence on women. Please don't ask us what do we tell the "brave Iraqi and Afghan soldiers fighting and dying alongside our troops". They damn well know! And I must say, at the moment I think they know better than you do what the threat of Islam under insane Immans and tyrannical leadership really is. More the pity that they don't voice it.
So, what is the consequence? Another courageous non-Muslim puts his life on the line in their stead.

When you think about it, Europe is where they have had many wars. They try to be nice but must be just naturally nasty. While things look bad for the EU we should not loose site of the fact that so far we have not seen the supressed European nature.
When it comes to forcing others to submit to their will we need only look at the histories of Spain, France, Germany, and England etc, to see what Europeans are really like. They can surpress their nature for only so long.
Already we are starting to see the emergence of that old European nature. This film will be yet another step in that re-emergence.

The issue is that our tactics have to change. You espouse Jihad you are kicked out of the country. Not jailed, inturned, or allowed to appeal. Kicked out and sent anywhere that will take you. No second chance, no I made a mistake, you are out. If you want to live here, practice your religion under the rules of the land, not Sharia, but Canadian law. If you can not live under our rules get out. If you do not like open societies get out.

The debate on personal attacks is misguided. The debate should be on what to do with the Jihadists period. Not who is bastardizing the Quoran with translations or interpretations, but who is preaching killing non-islamists.

Well said Terry Gain:

Being a Christian myself I a bore, the after Jesus aberrations in my own faith.

Like the inquisition & other abnormal non-Christian vicious fads that the Church has believed in. I call that not Christianity but Churchianity.

Four modern events come to mind in Christian circles;

1)David Koresh & his doomsday cult.

2)Jim Jones & his poisoned Koolside drinkers.

3)The Devil in the day cares, 80's style witch hunt.

4)The faith seed fad. Where if you gave God one dollar He would give 100 times more. Oral Roberts was big on that one, but except for Billy Graham & the Pope condemning this doctrine, it grew.

These all clearly go against established tradition the Gospels, if not the words of Jesus Himself in the Bible. Yet these doctrines, plus acts where sanctioned By laity groups & Ministers of the Church.

It was adherence to the Founders words & those Scriptures that defeated the abnormalities or malignancies that grew in the Church over time. A self correcting mechanism if you will.

That is what Makes Islam so dangerous is that not only does some of its visible institutions support terrorism but a large laity & there own Holy book does. As well there Prophet was war like in action, word & deed.

Most Muslims I agree are not fanatics , but their whole culture is devoted to a strict enforcement & environment of a feudal system, that encourages social outrages like honor killings , female mutilation & all the rest. Its sanctioned by custom & the Law.

The film clip was good propaganda but the real message lay in the little girls parroting of her Mother calling the Jews Pigs & Monkeys. Innocence suborned by hatred, disguised as Religion.

Personally I don't care if people worship purple dinosaurs. Just leave others to presume God or not in there own fashion. They can preach all they want, or not as well. As Jesus did when he told his disciples just to leave if there word was not taken as truth.

It boils down to respecting individuals as fellow humans. Not groups but singular people.

You know where to find copies if the liveleak feeds get pulled...

Surah 8.60

three transltions
008.060
YUSUFALI: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
PICKTHAL: Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
SHAKIR: And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.

They all say the same thing. You can find translations of all the suras quoted in the film from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html

The film's translations are not "bad" - they are accurate.

If this film clip doesn' instill concern in people then I don't know what will. I e-mailed most of the people on my mail list and asked them to access the link to Kate's site to watch this. I them asked them to send it to folks on their lists and so on and so on. This should be require watching for anyone concerned about the values of democracy, freedom, peace and free speech. This discussion must continue and it is up to right thinking people to make sure that it does continue. Our governments must be put on notice that they have to enact laws that suppress radical Islam and radical anything else. We must stop the "Neville Chamberline syndrome" that many of our Western governments (especially in Europe) have adopted. The CIA and CSIS have a big job - lets hope they are up to it.

Thanks for posting this Kate. It's propaganda, but the type of propaganda that needs widespread distribution. In case it gets pulled, I've downloaded the flv file from the torrent link and have my BitTorrent server up and running so other people can download it also. Anyone who's got the bandwidth to spare should use it to give this movie wide distribution.

Fortunately we're not in as bad a situation as the Eurabians are and we can help ourselves by banning any further islamic immigrants to Canada unless they're willing to agree to abide by Canadian laws. We don't need any more mindless totalitarians in this country.

What would my ma think? Well, she had this great little old simple prairie type saying: the bit pig squeals loudest. Lotsa squealing tonight at small dead animals, eh? Where's Kate, is what I want to know. Seems to me what she does is not any more complicated or noteworthy than old fashioned s--t disturbing.

Would she also say something about the pot calling the kettle black perhaps?

John Daly you are not. He's a good ole boy yankee golfer. Obviously you are not he. What you are dude is an asscap coward. Try shutting your pie hole and get a life. If you can't see the danger that is out there then you are one of them or a complete moron. We do not suffer fools. If it was me I'd just kick yer ass and send you on your way.

Belisarius was possibly in the Navy when a policy seems to have been brought into place by Rear-Admiral Tyrone Pile (Taken from CBC Aug. 25,
2006). He visited the Ottawa Central Mosque to invite Muslim youth to enlist, and said the Canadian military "does not reflect the cultural diversity in this country which is a shame".
Because: "The Canadian Forces is really dominated in large part by Canadian white males." (same source)

RCN Cmdr. Denise LaViolette said recruiting people of different religions and cultural backgrounds did present challenges, but the military is doing its best to accommodate their needs re dietary needs, prayer times, etc. The three Muslim women in the forces (in 2006) were issued specially tailored uniforms that were looser fitting than usual and included the hijab, the Muslim headscarf.

More delicate is the question of fighting people of their own religion and culture, but Bader Siddiqi, president of the Ottawa Muslim Association said that is an issue for many other people who join the military, including Christians. He did warn, though, that a more aggressive role in Afghanistan could be an obstacle that could harm Canada's reputation as a peace-loving nation.

So, there you have it. Peace-loving Muslims in the military of a peace-loving nation will spread good-will. Hope the recruitment drive has been successful.

"Our enemies have some legitimate grievances". Such as, we are Kuffar. Invite them to tea, read them some poetry, sing them a song, pick them some flowers, and sooner or later, the sunshine of your love will change their hearts and all will live in peace and harmony forever. "Don't be such a mouse. Grow up and get real." That's what ma would think.

...guys are bitchin about this translation, and that translation.
Fer christ sakes people, doesn't the blood on your monitors, and tv screen tell you something?

Beheadings not enough?
Airliners in buildings?
Hello??

gellen>

I’m a little confused (not with you) as to why anyone would want Muslims in our armies to begin with?
Can anyone else not remember the American Muslim soldier that ran into the command post with a grenade killing a bunch of real soldiers at the beginning of the Iraqi war?
Ok fine, diversity and proving one’s worth to your country is important, but separate and render harmless these units from the regular troops at least. Honestly ask yourself how safe would you feel on patrol with a couple of them locked and loaded at your backside? This can’t be a positive thing for our troops moral with these nagging questions distracting from their immediate tasks at hand. Just saying.

Listen to what the Muslim's themselves tell us: "Take lessons from the examples you can see!" Every Western blogger, Liberal, Libertarian, Republican, Conservative, everyone! should post this video.

Listen to what the Muslim's themselves tell us: "Take lessons from the examples you can see!" Every Western blogger, Liberl, Libertarian, Republican, Conservative, everyone! should post this video.

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/region/netherlands/080317-wilders-de-winter-mc

It never ceases to amaze me how radical jihadis and Muslim haters use this same method to justify themselves.
-Belisarius

And it never ceases to amaze me how liberals accuse anyone of "Muslim hatred" if he calls into question the explicit teachings of the Quran. Gee it kinda seems like the mullahs believe that this hatred is right there in the Quran, don't it dude? The little girl in the video seems to believe it too.

So Belisarius, if you studied the Quran so thoroughly, how can you possibly fail to see these words of hate which lace every other sentence?

And do you doubt whether women are oppressed under Islamic shariah? Isn't any decent person disgusted by the plight of poor Muslim women trapped in hot burkhas? Maybe it is you libs who are "Muslim-haters" because you are busy celebrating multi-culturism while Muslim women suffer around the world.

How can you libs be so willingly blind and deaf, and ready to sell out the West at every opportunity?

I submit that followers of the Liberal faith embrace Islam because both religions loathe Western culture and its manifest freedoms.

Freedom from Islamic shariah and terror is the new civil rights movement. Liberals will fight against this movement just as they fight against everything which is good and decent.

Thank-you for posting this Kate. Mr. Wilders is a very brave man. He must love his country very much to put his life on the line like this to try to save it and the Dutch people. It is a dire warning to North America (as was 911) that, if we care at all about ourselves and our coutries, we will heed.

after all the comments to this point i will still say islam is evil as are all those who follow the pedophile warlord mohammed.

Hmmmm, let me see...

Case 1)

Make a movie that says Christ is gay, or any other of a million things to slander Christians.

Christians complain, write letters, stop donations, beg for media time (Usually without too much success). No threats of violence, no be-headings, no riots...

Lefties pontificate - We need to examine all aspects of the subject, anything that creates discussion is a good thing, blah blah.

Case 2)
Make a movie that even shows a picture of Mohammed, let alone criticise the violence that seems to be inherent to the religion.

Muslims riot, threaten to riot more, threaten and execute violence, threaten and execute people, get ample media coverage for their point of view, etc,

Lefties condemn the film for agrravating the muslims, if there is violence it is the filmmakers fault, they made the muslims do it. Film should be banned they say.

Conclusion

Lefties are more nutty than the nutters!!

I add my thanks, Kate. This is must-watch.

And to think that the Liberals' immigration policies (sic and sick) brought in Muslims and their families in great numbers--not all, to be sure, Islamofascists--put them on welfare, with free, all-inclusive health benefits which the vast majority of hard-working Canadians are without (because they can't afford them)--so that they would continue to vote for them.

I'm sorry. I find that to type "Liberals" is to tell a lie. They AREN'T L/liberals; they're Librano$. 'Anything to maintain power, anything to get their hands on Canadians' money for their own nefarious schemes to make them rich.

So, now Canada is home to too many immigrants who have no intention of assimilating into our society and who, in fact, wish us harm.

Thanks, Librano$. Thanks a lot.

And the rest of us better wake up fast.

I've read the Koran, when the surahs reference the "Battle Ground" it means any non-Muslim land on this planet. The Koran preaches and demands for global domination, the less offensive surahs tell Muslims to try and woo us then tax us and then kill us if we don't surrender. The koran reminds me of a military manual, the moral of the koran is total and under distruction of all other religions. The Koran demands for a global Caliphate, the question is will Muslims want peace or global jihad? I really don't know.

The video is a series of global news reports, followed up with Muslim leaders explaining why it's okay to kill Jew Pigs and Infidel dogs and Hindus etc. It's not fiction those events happened and were reported globally. If Muslims turn to rioting and ranting the video record of those riots will give him the material for "Part Two". If a video of Muslims committing violent acts triggers further violence how can they possibly blame anyone but themselves for their violence tendancies?

I'd have to give Fitna two thumbs up, way up. If that makes me an evil Islamophobe, so be it. Say it with me, people: "I'm JAFI and I'm proud!"

Praise be to Kate for posting this.

Belisarius means well. However, his view is slanted.

Islam is a foundationally violent ideology, regardless of how one wants to interpret it, or tart it up. There are several reliable english translations of the Quran found here: www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran.

As MND noted, Belisarius probably gets his translations from the Muslim Brotherhood at islamonline.

War is deceipt - Mohammad, Hadith

Keep in mind clever Muslims will often use the lesser, humble verses, such as "no compulsion in religion." These verses are often used out of context, or not explained (kitman) ie "peace" means submission to allah and "innocent" means that you are Muslim. No non-Muslim is innocent.

Also, Muslims are conveniently provided with two surahs pertaining to the same topic, in which case they can believe one and reject the other, or use to deceive (dualism). As well, abrogation is how the Quran is divided between the relatively peaceful Medina period and the violent Mecca period. For example, Quran 9:5 abrogates no less than 124 less violent verses.

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Islam is an idea and ideas can be rejected. An evil idea is not made palatable or acceptable just because a billion people believe it.

The more information Muslims receive regarding the ideology, the more they are waking up and leaving.

Islam is unreformable and irredeemable. It can only be discarded, as every violently evil ideology must be.

This video did nothing to change my views, it just depicted what I already understand the situation to be.

I guess we should expect grovelling from the Dutch government as they quake in fear of demostrations, I guess we can expect attempts on Wilders' life. The Canadian army liberated the Dutch from the Nazi yoke, it seems that they and the rest of Europe are complacently allowing another yoke to be put on them, the Muslim yoke.
(copied from a similiar posting on the Sentinel's Blog)

John Daly sez: "the bit pig squeals loudest. Lotsa squealing tonight at small dead animals, eh?"

Not surprisingly, he's using Islamic terminology to dehumanize people he doesn't agree with. "Sons of apes and pigs." The pigs are generally described as the Christian crusaders.

John Daly is siding with a racist, misogynist, murderous, bigoted, unbelievably hateful ideology. Is his defence ignorance? I hope so for his sake.

While many people who comment on the conservative blogs seem to feel that Fitna is telling them nothing new it should be remembered that the point of the movie is to broaden the audience.

European Governments have already taken steps to Ban It..... The UN wants to criminalize movies and books like it.

The point of the movie is bot what is being said ... it's the Fact that It IS Being Said in a more public manner.

Waiting for BBC and the like to air it. If they do watch for extensive disclaimers ahead of the broadcast.

Sorry ... bot = not

"that the point of the movie is to broaden the audience."

Agree with you 100% on this OMMAG. I find it surprising how laid back the younger 20 somethings are on this issue. At least from what I see among my daughter's friends who view the Muslim fanatics and their supporters as just a teeny tiny minority amongst Muslims and that the issue will just fade away over soon.

If conservatives here really believe that Islam is unreformable and irredeemable and fundamentally evil, then why the hell are we in Afghanistan? Why do you support staying in Iraq? What purpose could it possibly serve to spend billions and billions of dollars in the Middle East if they "all want to kill us"?

We fight them there so we don't fight them here!

sheesh, that was a no brainer!!

Also, because we care.

I happened to catch the CBC Radio 2 News this AM and their lead story was this film being released on line. I hope it encourages a few others to seek and find it.

I have a very strong tolerance for blood and gore, but I cannot watch these jihadi videos where kidnapped victims are decapitated. It happens about halfway through.

I was in Pennsylvania when Nick Berg was murdered, and they were showing the video on every screen around. I wasn't sure why, of if they actually were showing the act or merely the preamble, but it really surprised me and my heart went out to his family. Playing terrorist-made propaganda, and digesting it, is playing into their game.

These snuff films violate every one of my principles, and this is one dude who cannot abide.

RIP to all the victims of these cowards. I refuse to watch their productions, and despise their brainwashing media attempts to replace German Holocaust atrocities as modern Israeli tactics against the refugee nation abandoned by Jordan.

Yes, most muslims do not support these fanatics, but the fact that, until recently in Pakistan, the Taliban/bin Laden cult were not declared ex-communicado from Islam sure made the silence seem like approval.

I do applaud the brave filmmaker.

Younger people have the ability to think that this group exists merely to free their homelands from the Imperial aggressors occupying their homeland.

Younger people also feel that Islamic terror is a bigger threat than the mutual deterrent nuclear Cold War. Only if they get the bomb, kids.....

Daniel Pipes has long contended that radical Islam is a problem to which moderate Islam is the solution. Here is his first published remark after viewing Fitna:

Comment: I disagree with the one-to-one correlation of the Koran with Islamist behavior, as though 1,400 years had not passed in between, but I concede the film's simple, powerful argument.

Joe... Yes if it encourages all 11 of CBC listeners to watch it, it will help

.

I thought Gene Wilder was dead.

.

"If conservatives here really believe that Islam is unreformable and irredeemable and fundamentally evil, then why the hell are we in Afghanistan? Why do you support staying in Iraq? What purpose could it possibly serve to spend billions and billions of dollars in the Middle East if they "all want to kill us"?"

Well, hopefully Ted, they'll have a modicum of freedom for the first time in their lives. Including the freedom to leave Islam.

Although, I half-heartedly agree with you. They should also be demanding that Islam is separated from the state, legal and education systems in these countries, as the Americans did with Shintoiism in Japan.

I also disagree with the one-to-one correlation of the Koran with Islamic fascism and its violent behaviour.

However, I think it is extremely important to make and show, in a widespread manner, films such as this one, showing both the violence in the Koranic texts and the violence in Islamic fascism. Muslims have to see this; they have to acknowledge BOTH 'images' and then, they have to debate whether the one requires the other.

The Islamic world has never examined itself. It has been isolate for centuries. Its ideology has been static for centuries. Suddenly, within the past generation, the Islamic world finds itself in the middle of a modern world - and its social, economic and political modes are all operating in the 8th century.

On its own, it has refused to change. Instead it has attempted to deal with this traumatic difference by retrenching, by returning even further into past centuries. That's Islamic fascism. Or, it has insisted that the Western world is the one that must change - and must adopt 8th century style social, legal and political behaviour.

The West has started to fight back. It has, via the US, moved the internal fight within Islam, the Al Qaeda desire to return to the 7th century back into the ME. It's now being fought by tribes, who must disband and collaborate if they are to live in the modern world.

And, the West is starting to fight back against the disastrous SLEEP of multiculturalism, which saw the other tactic of Islam to 'do nothing' but to remain 'as it was'...This other tactic was to try to get the West to change. Not Islam. But the West. To adopt Sharia, to accomodate discrimination against women, and so on. Now the West is fighting back against multiculturalism.

Now, Islam is being forced, by the West, to examine itself. To examine its own axioms, its own articles of faith. The political cartoons, these films- yes, they'll create violence - but it's a phase that has to be endured by the West. We cannot allow our freedom, fought for so hard over the centuries - to disappear.

We can't allow Islam to return us to the 8th century!!

So, difficult as it is, for both sides actually, films, cartoons, talk, talk and questions, must be continuous and public. Islam has to face itself; it has to confront its own axioms and see how disastrous they are.

I'm thinking if we want liberals everywhere to grab a brain and actually see how evil this "religion" is, we need Al Gore to take this film on the road and promote it. They fell for everything he had to say in "Inconvenient Truth", didn't they?

Only this threat is actually real.

For a more complete chronicle of words which hang themselves, see:

www.prophetofdoom.net

The webmaster has chronicled a very detailed compliation of verses from many of the inspirational writings that inspire the imams (prayer leaders) to committ murderous rampages.

And, even though this film snippet highlights some of the verses, there are many more verses and analysis.

It's an interesting site to explore.

Ted, Islam like the Nazi scourge on humanity is unreformable and we are in Afghanistan and Iraq because they are strategic real estate right in the heart of that putrid ME swamp that needs draining.

Bullet therapy seems to work better with homicidal jihadi Neanderthals than the collective wishes of braindead lefties hoping that they will come around to reason with us.

Initially, I paid little attention to the verses in the film, just as I don't consult the Bible when I'm deciding about anything. But that's my mistake. Just because I consider the Bible an interesting mix of myth and history, doesn't mean that Islamists apply the same rational judgment to the Koran. For those who say this as a "hate" video, I agree, but the hate appears to be coming from the Muslim extremists directed at anyone who is considered "other". None of the rules of forbearance, love, forgiveness or gentleness apply when it involves people of other faiths, cultures or even people within their own faith who happen to disagree.

I'm sure there are many Muslims who deplore their extremist brothers, but by not exerting a moderating influence, and by being defensive about these ranters, they contribute to the problem. And why do moderates not speak out? Likely for the same reasons that Westerners bite their tongues, and magazines don't print cartoons and internet providers don't show this film. It's from fear. Where before, we might have refrained from comment because of reluctance to offend or because of tolerance and cultural sensitivity, we have now become afraid to speak out for fear of reprisal against ourselves, or against innocents whose only crime is to be accessible to fanatics (such as the poor man beheaded in the film). Hirsi Ali, Theo Van Gogh, the Danish cartoonist, Salman Rushdie, and this filmmaker are amazingly brave--some might even say, foolhardy. But I am grateful to them. But for them and their like, we might simply turn away before the most horrible violations of human rights through some unwillingness to offend and libertarian naivete. (When in Rome....) But when one observes a wrong, religion and culture should not be used to defend it. And it is no defense to point out that other groups have also done evil things. Other people's evils don't excuse one's own. It's like the little kid saying "But Jimmy does it," when he's being reproached for wrongdoing.

The most effective protests should come from those who are part of that culture and religion. There must be reform. Can you imagine a world ruled by these madmen? And the more they rant unchallenged, the more pumped they get. The more afraid the rest of the world becomes. Positions become hardened and discourse among reasonable people stops. So if you are a witness to evil don't imagine that because you are silent or you are not bombing innocent people, you have no responsibility.

We all have a duty to stand for humanity before the barbarians. So this film, good or bad, is posing some questions that I think deserve some hard thinking from everyone who cares about freedom, the rights of women and children, and the safety of all. If cruelty and repression are done in the name of your religion, don't excuse it or cover it up or try to argue it away. Admit it, speak out against it and work for reform.

So penny, I take you agree with Obama and the lefties that the US should get out of Iraq? What better than to leave it in the midst of an insurgency, letting Muslims kill Muslims. What's up with this "peace" that Bush keeps striving for, anyway? What's with all these billions upon billions of dollars wasted on hospitals and infrastructure if that is just going to make the "Neanderthals" stronger. I take it you are with sensible Ann Coulter and would prefer we just kill all their leaders.

Nevermind Egypt, Jordon, Turkey and their moderate Muslim leaders, that's just a fiction.

Ironic use of the term "Neanderthal", penny, come to think of it.

ET, agree, but I believe that there must be a failure of Islamic fundamentalism first, and only then will Islam search for an adaptation that better integrates it into the world community. As long as the feedback is positive, the fundamentalists will continue on their path.

That is why we must be in Afghanistan, and elsewhere. We must be defeating them at every opportunity, on every front, in every forum. On the battlefield where possible, in the hearts and minds in the developing world, in our institutions, media ... everywhere. We must demonstrate a resolve to deliver Islamic fundamentalism a defeat.

A very dear friend of mine is Muslim. Our families grew up together. So I know it is entirely possible to not just co-exist, but to co-operate.

Will negotiation and appeasement result in the needed reform? If negotiating and appeasement are read as successful feedback to the fundamentalists, then, no. Now that Islamic fundamentalism has evolved beyond being a mere pest, we must slam shut this avenue of its development, harshly. The message must be clear: we will not allow this to succeed. We are resolved, we will not.

I also believe the fundamentalists have underestimated us, have overcalculated their momentum and strength, and will blunder, sadly, by taking some atrocious step that finally galvanizes the non-muslim world. We've seen it before - megalomania injects itself into the mix, and is unchecked. This is what I believe lies at the heart of the matter: once more in history, megalomania has chanced upon an efficacious vehicle, and has stepped on the accelerator. This particular manifestation has it diffuse - embodied between the ears of a few theocrats.

"that the point of the movie is to broaden the audience."

I’ll agree with that, and the internet is probably the best medium to get the message out to the more important younger audience than the MSM ever would.

Curiously though, how many western parents, even here will bother to show this to their kids, young teens for example? Most I’ll suspect won’t want to trouble them or are afraid they’re too young for the violence or simply want to shelter them. The Muslims unfortunately do not have these restrictive moralities concerning their kids, thus their non-pampered children are fighting from birth.

Where the hell is Jordon Ted?

People are starting to wake up:

"Dutch: Mass Immigration Our Biggest Mistake Ever"

AMSTERDAM, 27/03/08 - The majority of the Dutch are negative on Islam and immigration. Additionally, their knowledge of Dutch history is meagre, according to a survey by three history professors.

According to 56 percent of the Dutch, Islam is a threat to the Dutch identity. As well, 57 percent named admitting large groups of immigrants as "the biggest mistake in Dutch history".

The results come from the History Monitor. This survey was carried out among a representative group of 1,069 people by De Volkskrant newspaper, Historisch Nieuwsblad history journal and TV programme Andere Tijden in consultation with history professors James Kennedy, Niek van Sas and Hans Blom.

Shaken:

Ultimately, it will have to be Muslims themselves who boot out the imams who advocate violent solutions in the mosques.

There really is no structure, as such, where imams can sit down and agree on heresies, such as was done by the early Christian councils.

Muslims themselves say about 2% of their population is radicalized, which means (1.5 billion x .02) about 30 million.

IMHO, one of the main questions they will have to answer is: were the acts of Muhammad something appropriate only for his time or are they a blueprint for emulation?

I'm quite sure close to 100% of human beings in the Judeo/Christian tradition understand the violent acts described in the Old Testament were a record of that historical time, not something which must be emulated today.

That seems to be a point lost on jihadists.

Hard to suppress something linked and hosted all over the world, eh, mojos?

Ted,

I'll turn that one around on you and ask you if you think that the islamic world is reformable and if so, do you support Iraq and Afghanastan?

Pat Condells video essay on radical Islam is well worth the watch as well.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=30a_1204991129

Warwick:

Afghanistan - yes, absolutely, wholeheartedly, stop this posturing about fixing a departure time, pour more money and soldiers into rebuilding the country.

Iraq - UK/US did not go into Iraq to "reform" it, nor to root out terrorists who were plotting against us. Hussein was an evil, despotic, murderer, right up there with the worst, but he was not an Islamic fundamentalist and in fact kept the extremists at bay because they were a threat to his autocratic control. So Iraq was always going to be a distraction from getting the job done and done right in Afghanistan, and was inevitably going to become (as Dick Cheney predicted) a "quagmire". That it may come out of the quagmire, doesn't change what it was. The more complicated question is: now that the US is there, now what? I would have preferred them not to go in for a thousand reasons, but the post-WWII model of European re-building seems to me the best (if unlikeliest) models.

Now Warwick, I was decent enough to respond to you, will you return the favour? If you think the Muslim faith is irredeemable and fundamentally murderous, why should we spend a dime in rebuilding Iraq or Afghanistan and try to rebuild their infrastructure or develop a democracy?

It seems to me that the anti-Muslim sentiments of Kate and Shaidle and the conservative commenters here are fundamentally at odds with the objectives of the Bush and Harper governments in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It is beyond question that most (as in more than 90%) of Muslims world wide would view the acts portrayed in this film as abhorrent. We know this because of current experience in Iraq and Afghanistan. Little kids sit down in the middle of the road to keep the house sized American tank from rolling over the mine they saw some "freedom fighter" plant the day before.

It is beyond question that our forces are doing great good works in those countries. Little kids did not warn the Russians when -they- went to Afghanistan, did they?

I think that takes care of Ted and John DUHley.

The average Canadian Muslim will react to the film the same way I react to some of the modern "art" we see occasionally, involving crucifixes and various bodily fluids. They will be offended, they will say that Mr. Wilders is a disgusting POS Leftist, and they will MOVE ON.

It is beyond question. That is exactly what will happen, as day follows night. Because they are civilized human beings, and they act the same as everybody else does.

It is beyond question that this film will act like a flashlight in the kitchen, illuminating all the nasssty little insects hiding in the wainscotting as they run about chittering. The 0.005% of Muslims in this country who are insane fanatics and live for the destruction of their enemies will take this opportunity to stick their diseased heads up, the police will shoot them off, and that will be that.

Questions?

None whatsoever, Phantom. Well said.

None whatsoever, Phantom. Well said.

Although most of the prior commenters would seem to disagree with you.

Pete Hoekstra, senior Republican on the US House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence:

"Even if the new Wilders film proves newsworthy, it is likely that few members of the Western media will air it, perhaps because they have been intimidated by radical jihadist threats… I defend the right of Mr. Wilders and the media to air this film because free speech is a fundamental right that is the foundation of modern society. Western governments and media outlets cannot allow themselves to be bullied into giving up this precious right due to threats of violence. We must not fool ourselves into believing that we can appease the radical jihadist movement by allowing them to set up parallel societies and separate legal systems, or by granting them special protection from criticism."

Meanwhile ctv's spin....the video is soon to be banned for it's unacceptable content.According to ctv even christian groups are denouncing the video,and of course muslims around the world are offended by the propaganda. The so called news spent more time on Brenda Martin and her privacy rights being trampled by the Harper government,it pains them too much to actually use his title Prime Minister.

Thanks Ted.

I think, because I pay attention to what's in front of my face every day, that Muslims in Canada are fundamentally normal humans just trying to get by like everybody else, salted with the odd fruitloop just like every other identifiable group. All the Irish weren't in the IRA, were they? Maybe 0.005% were.

The trick is to shake the fruitloops out as painlessly as possible, and then dropkick them into jail.

I'd say this movie, heinous piece of Leni Reifenstahlesque propaganda that it is (no, I didn't like it either) will give things a damn good shake.

This is an amazingly offensive movie. But in a free country you're free to post amazingly offensive sh1t on the web. Canada's either a free country or it isn't.

Anybody says it isn't will have me to deal with. That, like I said, is beyond question.

I will wait for the fallout to see exactly how free we are,like I said,ctv is reporting that the video is soon to be banned.

I agree with Hoekstra. While I don't like the film, Wilders has every right to show and distribute it. Rather than trying to have it banned, Muslim groups should debate the content and explain how it slanders their religion and the vast majority of its practitioners. The same violent street protests, death fatwas and murder that accompanied the cartoon controversy will only give more credence to the idea that Islam itself is the problem.

It's funny, the video is going to be banned as CTV reports. Many are saying that it (video) was done strickly as a political statement to promote an anti-muslim agenda. Alot of these same people are pretty quiet when there are disturbing statements, quotes, sermans and terrorist attacks being publizied with in the Mosques, literature and web. Where are the Muslim leaders and Imans when these events take place? Do they hold a public demonstration denoucing the intolerant statements or cowardly attacks. I have yet to see thousands in the streets chanting death to intorerance or terrorist acts.
All the misguided indignation to the video flys in the face of the content of the video. These leftards should be screaming bloody murder about the lack of anti'terrorism leadership within the Muslim community. That is the travesty not the messenger.

Someone here called me a "two bit link whore..." This really hurt my feelings. So, in my despair and anger I have written some equally hurtful things about y'all, yonder, at my blog. Mind, my blog is not for everyone. You need to be reasonably open-minded to get what I have to offer.

So, big boy, why don't you come on up to my place and see me sometimes. I don't know about you, but I am always fascinated to read about myself. Read about yourselves. You know you want to:

http://johnnymaudlin.blogspot.com/2008/03/my-dear-friends-over-yonder-at-swell.html

What is offensive, to any rational human being, is the Islamic ideology, including its texts and its prophet's life example and sayings.

What is offensive is this ideology's constitution in shariah law, which includes the death penalty for anybody that rejects the ideology.

What is offensive is this ideology being used for 1400 years to carry out an allah ordained, holy holocaust against non-believers and their lands.

What is offensive is anybody who defends this anti-civilization and anti-human ideology, whether that's through ignorance or subterfuge.

What is offensive is the UN HRC along with the Islamic theocracies signing a declaration against the defamation of Islam and urging countries to legally prohibit it. This is not only an attack against freedom of speech, it is an attack against criticism of Islam, thereby placing Islam alone and supreme above all other ideologies.

That is offensive. A 15 minute film is not.

No traffic today Daly? Typical.

Simply brilliant!!

Some people on this thread have compared this film to the "art" where a crucifix was immersed in urine with dicriptions of how Christians felt or reacted to it. As a Christian I could care the less. What was soaked in urine was a bit of metal. Jesus the real man was offered and suffered a far greater indignity to His Being at the time of His crucifixion so dipping a bit of metal into a jar full of urine seems a bit lame. However it raises another point of truth. Jesus was thoroughly degraded and most cruelly killed, throughout which time His prayer was "Father forgive them they do not know what they are doing". Christians taking their lead from His example turn the other cheek when their Saviour is mocked. How then shall the Muslims react to this film? If the actual footage of people being killed or other religions being insulted are the actions of a fringe group then how can the remainder distance themselves. If on the other hand this is the actions of the more strident believers how will the remainder defend the more rabid believer? Banning the film to my mind would be similar to seeing a murder about to take place in the street and pulling the blinds so I don't have to witness it. Is the film accurate in its depiction of a few, many, most or all Muslims? Does the film accurately depict common interpretations of the relevant portions of the Qur'an? If it is not accurate how should we react? If it is accurate how should we react. BTW I do not now or ever have recommend the destruction of any body or property beyond the destruction of a belief system that is harmful to the holder of said belief or the neighbour of the holder of said destructive belief.

I called you John DUHley, and you're proving me right. John DUHley, putting the 'tard in Leftard.

Well, that certainly didn't take long. Live Leak just stopped carrying Fitna, as mentioned on the other thread.

Death threats, eh? Niiiice.

So John Duhley, still wondering why we mock you? How do you like your jihadi buddies now?

Does anyone realistically believe that whatever fatwas were threatened will now also be withdrawn?

It is still up on UTube.

No surprise on that update. "Fitna" violated the MSM's sacred dogmas of self-censorship, political correctness even to the point of cultural suicide and the multi-culti myth. It had to be compromised somehow. The mention of the morons in the British press, their "ill informed reports", is intriguing.

So here we are at this point in the west's history with freedom of speech rapidly slipping away. A factually correct expose of this century's biggest menace can't find a media outlet. Amazing. Ask yourself who is more dangerous to our culture's survival, the 7th century fundamentalist Islamic troglodyte or the well-heeled college educated lefty quislings with the wired brain of last century's fascists among us?

More positive feedback for Islamic fundamentalists: "intimidation works, we are succeeding".

ET: Good posts. You're right that the West needs to do this over and over and over again. And you're right, the rage seems to be subsiding somewhat, perhaps because they are slowly getting what a cariactature they've become (see: Rage Boy, et al).

HOWEVER, and following your excellent tutelage on tribalism (and having read Popper's Vol 1 of The Open Society and concurrently some Hayek) I have to re-emphasize that massive muslim benefit-seeking "migration" might be dragging this adjustment you mention; that perhaps, the West will slowly descend into tribalism instead (after all, that's what most western intelletuals want eh?); that Western civilization is being irreversibly diluted by shari'a law, drip, drip, and drip.

That said, you can't but feel slightly more optimistic with recent trends and also very excited to see how irrelevant MSM is becoming in the equation.

Brava Kate!

It is truly unbelievable that the video has been removed because of death threats.
Is the police investigating, or are they too scared?

Unbelievable how fast the muzzies shut down Liveleak with death threats and the MSM does nothing and says nothing. I thought the movie was incredible and so low-key which made its message all the more powerful. Must download it before it disappears.

Everything he showed is available in the media yet pulling it all together is somehow anti-muslim. Unless we keep pounding away at this evil and dragging it into the light of day it will swallow us up.

What cowards the European countries are for distancing themselves from this threat. Of course these countries folded like a deck of cards when Hitler threatened them. Where do you think the word Quisling came from and they are doing it again.

Canuckguy @ 11:05 AM: "'that the point of the movie is to broaden the audience.'

"Agree with you 100% on this OMMAG. I find it surprising how laid back the younger 20 somethings are on this issue. At least from what I see among my daughter's friends who view the Muslim fanatics and their supporters as just a teeny tiny minority amongst Muslims and that the issue will just fade away over soon."

That was the other point I was going to make this morning @ 7:41 a.m., but had to hightail it to work:

The Librano$, in addition to allowing mega-immigration from groups not willing to assimilate and wishing us harm, also introduced multiculturalism into our school system @ 30 years ago. No wonder our "younger twentysomethings" are so laid back: Hey, another culcha? What's the prob?

Most of our young people have been brainwashed into thinking that ALL CULTURES ARE EQUAL. Islamofascists = Judeo-Christians, although multiculturalism-Canadian-style actually teaches our young people that Judeo-Christianity is WORSE than any other culture/faith. You know? It's a COLONIAL thing.

We shouldn't be surprised that our young people are "laid back" about the threat to their way of life. They've been lulled into thinking they have no enemies, that everything/everyone is "cool" thanks to the Librano$ and the fact that Judeo-Christianity, which actually is a religion of peace--but which does know how to discern an enemy in our midst--has been deep-sixed from "official" Canadian life: read government agencies, universities, the education system, the MSM.

We're reaping what we've sown. I'm not sure how many generations it takes to reclaim our cultural/faith heritage...

You can still find it on YouTube.

I think movie is very provocative as well is should be.

We in the West need to continue to provoke the massive numbers of radical facist musims all over the world to keep them increasing their attacks on the West. Once everyone has been satisfactorily outraged and or victimized by these monsters, we can them provide the support to our governments and our our armed forces to start killing them in far, far greater numbers.

We must also continue to badger our politicians to end all Muslim immigration in the West.

If we are ever to have a chance to survive as free people we MUST defeat these beasts NOW!

We can beat them if we resolve to do so. So far, as I see it, they are winning because we are letting them win.

How stupid is that? The Leftists, Homosexuals, women's groups, university students, the NDP and all other haters of Western society are all complicit in the terrorist's Jihad against us.

We might want to start doing something about them too.

BTW, I should also have mentioned that Judeo-Christianity has been deep sixed in a lot of "Christian" Churches too: United, Anglican, and other denominations which allow political correctness to trump Christian teachings.

How can I download it, and from where?

Dutch leftists apologize to Islam. (via LGF)
...-

Fitna the Movie
We’re tired of waiting. So, let’s do it ourselves! Sorry!

We can compete for attention however. And we can produce disinformation. So we are going to make Movies called “Fitna” in which we apologise for Geert Wilders embarrassing behaviour. We will make so many of them that it will be hard to find the movie by Wilders without finding lots of movies apologising for it.

Just to let the world (and ourselves) know that allowing confused people to speak does not mean that we agree with what they say. Sorry.

So if you want to join in; just make your own Fitna movie and put it on line. Put on a blonde wig, look cross eyed and say you’re sorry. Film it with you telephone or camera. Then, publish it on line as many times as you can, Youtube, Hyves, Myspace any place. Call it Fitna by Geert Wilders. Add any statement that you like to. Link to your movie and to other movies you like from your blogs and websites. Sorry!

Let’s smother this Wilders in our apologies. If we work hard enough, no one will be able to find his crap among all the noise we produce. And the world knows how we feel about Wilders and his opportunism.
WE’RE SORRY!"
http://www.mediamatic.net/article-33851-en.html

This rather proves the point of the movie, doesn't it?

You can 'yank' the video from one site, and it will appear on another site. That's the power of the people. The Internet belongs to the people.

It's an important video among other confrontative questions - the political cartoons were one, Theo Van Gogh's film was another. There will be violence and retribution by Islamists because they are still refusing to confront and examine their own ideology.

As I said, they've made two choices so far, both of them rejecting self-examination. The first is the fascist Al Qaeda choice. Let's all move back and pretend we're back in the 7th century. Unfortunately, to keep a population living way back in time, to 13 centuries ago, takes a LOT of energy, fear and force. No country can last long like that.

The other choice, is to attempt to change the West to 'Be like Us, We Islamists'. The West attempted a postmodern version of this; it's called multiculturalism, which states that 'every belief and behaviour is equal in value; none are better or worse. Beating your wife is equivalent to not beating your wife'.

This is not working; the West is emerging, slowly, from this drunken Liberalist stupor, and beginning to fight back.
And, it's becoming clear that the Islamic notion of multicultural is about 'we're all equal', but instead, that We are The Best, and You are nothing.

Me no dhimmi - glad you like Popper. Get the second volume as well. I'm also a fan of Hayek.
No, I don't think the West will go tribal; the population is too large for tribalism.

My concern is that the West will tend to the ease of socialism, which rejects a middle class and is instead made up of two classes: the workers who don't know, and the elite who are in gov't and who rule everyone. This is the Platonist form of govt, as you know. It's also the Liberal and NDP style. We are beer and popcorn; they know what's best for us.

Such a two class system immediately stops freedom. Dead in its tracks. That's because it rejects the concept that every person is capable of thinking, of reasoning. The Liberal/NDP/Platonist idea is that only the elites in govt (and academia) can think and reason.

But, if you can't reason, then you aren't free. Because freedom means the capacity and right to make choices. If you do have the capacity to choose, it means you can't think.

A middle class is made up of individuals. People who think. The Liberal/NDP/Platonist two class society denies a middle class. They don't want interfering 'thinking people'. They will govern.

And a lot of people prefer that type of nation, where the govt makes all the decisions, and we just mutter and get angry with them..but, we don't do anything. Because..it's all 'up to the govt'..to make things OK.

I think these films and cartoons are excellent, because they are showing Muslims that their texts and their words and their behaviour, are open to question. If they assert they are 'peaceful', then, how can they explain their texts and actions, both of which are violent?

Does anyone recall the splendid CPC ads of the 2006 election campaign? They simply showed high level Liberals, their words and their actions (I'm entitled to my entitlements)...and this raised questions..
Same thing with these videos and cartoons..

While the images of "Fitna" are appalling, they are on the same level as watching newsreels of the Jews during the Holocaust.

Even Himmler himself couldn't hold his stomach contents while visiting Auschwitz.

Which probably underscores the statement:

"I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jeremiah 31:33

Nobody is under the illusion that watching butchery of humans is a pleasant experience.

The unwritten error that Fitna asserts is that all Muslims are blood thirsty in the same way that all Germans were blood thirsty mindless SS robots with ice in their veins.

Life is never that simple.

One could go ahead and quote many Old Testament/Torah passages in which Moabites, Hittites, etc. were laid waste. This does not make current day Orthodox Jews into a bunch of mindless warriors ready to lay waste to whoever crosses their path.

Alternately, one could point out that the first Gentile to convert to Christianity was Cornelius the Centurion who would not be averse to swordplay per the Acts of the Apostles.

Even one of the Apostles lopped off Malthus's ear prior to the crucifixion, but we don't see 2 billion Christians all becoming ear loppers in the same way that 1 billion Muslims are not all head choppers.

While there are extremists in any faith the percentage is obviously reasonably low, otherwise the casualty figures would be much higher, on the order of millions.

Most normal people are looking to have steady job, feed their family, educate their children, plan for retirement, enjoy their kids, etc.

Vincent Van Gogh was an ardent ear lopper, but that doesn't make all the Dutch looking for Jesus to restore their self-inflicted ear wounds.

While "Fitna" underscores the undeniable harm that a number of individuals who are fanatically motivated can do, it overreaches by suggesting a systemic problem is applicable to each and every Muslim.

As a Christian, I could put a similar set of quotes together from selected passages of Scripture and set off on a self-anointed "Crusade" to convert the heathen by the rule of the sword.

Cherry picking a few quotes from Islam also ignores those passages which focus on mercy.

In the same way one can cherry pick certain Christian passages and ignore those which focus on the love of neighbor.

That would be the method of the ideologue who has a political agenda to grind.

Thus one can make the statement that all Muslims adhere to the ideology of Islam; it is a leap to suggest that all Muslims are of necessity of same level of ideologues as the fanatics who flew into the towers in New York.

In the same way it is an error to assert from the Muslim perspective we belong to the "Crusader West" it is an error on our part to conclude that there is no diversity of opinion within the Muslim faith community.

In short, there is an error in ascribing monolithism of opinion in the Muslim community.

Cheers

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht BGS, PDP, CFP

Commander in Chief

Frankenstein Battalion

2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von Baden(Rheinisches) Nr.7(Saarbrucken)

Knecht Rupprecht Division

Hans Corps

1st Saint Nicolaas Army

Army Group “True North”

So why are't Moderate Muslims standing beside us and condemning the violence of their fellow Muslims. Where is the Moderate voice of Islam, they can be offended if they wish but it's not Irish Catholic men beheading and killing people globally in the name of Allah. The video is a diary of global events, violence, maiming and killing in the name of Allah. Where is the moderates condemning the actions of the Islamic Radicals?

I don't believe most Muslims pose a threat to me, but if they stay silent what message am I to assume they are sending me? If they don't speak out soon the Radicals will silence them with threats of violence, it's worked in Europe, Muslims asked for help but the governments turned them away because they were afraid of being branded as Islamophobes. Moderate Muslims have been left to deal with Radicals in their community and the police turn a blind eye. We aren't helping Muslims by remaining silent, their only hope is for us to join forces and expel the Radical Scum from their communities. Neither side can do it alone, we need to work together to cull Radical Islamist out of our communities.

ET: Yup, I'm into Vol 2, Hegel-Marx. He's not too keen on Aristotle either, eh? Another misunderstander of evolution and a totalitarian like Plato. Hegel was a fraud, a mystic.

BTW, the Hayek - The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism. Quite short, under 200 pp. A summing up as it were, written in 1988. There is much here also about tribalism -- that the market economy, which he prefers to call the "extended order" was enabled by our restraining our instincts and following abstract rules, etc., and how altruism cannot be operated on a grand scale (which is obviously the left's central fallacy). And incredibly profound information on private property, which he prefers to call "several property", how the extended order could not arise without it, and how one of its key functions in discovery.
Also, volume X1 of his collected works is the Correspondence between FA Hayek and Karl Popper (1937).

But ET as you've explained: the West HAS tribalism, big time: multiculturalism. And ALL of our political and intellectual elites seem to favour it -- favour a return to tribalism.

Let's not go binary on this subject. The West has been ideologically infiltrated by tribalism and is committing suicide via out of control benefit-seeking (jizya!) muslim immigration. Which has to end, or we'll END.

Does anyone seriously think that NOT publishing the movie or even an apology from the film maker, the Dutch and all other western nations will stop the next Islamic mass murder????

Lets pretend for a moment that no “insulting” movie or cartoons were ever produced or published…………would the world be any safer today?

If you answered yes to either question then you deserve all that is Islamic to embrace you, do the remainder of society a favor and move to Saudi Arabia.

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht BGS, PDP, CFP

Bet you're real fun at parties:(

Where is the Moderate voice of Islam

It exists, but it's quite understandably afraid, taking it's cue from our craven political and intellectual class.

And let's remember that the elites undermine the silent moderates by "interfacing" with the Islamists like CAIR (offering sensitivity training courses to the FBI), the Muslim Council of Britain etc, who represent a very tiny percentage of the muslim community. And we just won't turn off this Wahhabi mosque infiltration!

Why? Power. This is the enduring lesson I got out of Efraim Karsh's work on Islamic Imperialism -- couldn't be achieved without the active collusion of the Church elites. For a modern day example, you couldn't find a better example than the traitorous Olmert, PM of Israel. Any lie, any fantasy, to retain power, and the people be damned even mass-murdered.

Here's what commentators need to deeply consider: why aren't they worried about a violent reaction from white westerners? After all, it is they, and not muslims, who are being shown being beheaded and blown up.

Instead, they expect a violent reaction from among Muslims (while at the same time insisting that extremists are "on both sides").

This tells you that even the appeasement-oriented commentators understand where the real risk lies.

ET: re your comment "...multiculturalism, which states that 'every belief and behaviour is equal in value; none are better or worse. Beating your wife is equivalent to not beating your wife'": I agree with you up to a point.

The real point is, however, that multiculturalism in the West hasn't actually taught that "every belief and behaviour is equal," no matter what its perpetrators say. What, in actuality, multiculturalism has done is tell an increasingly secular West that SOME cultures are more equal than others.

I know. My children were in the public educational system, where every culture and every faith OTHER than the Judeo-Christian faith were not only welcomed but touted as "newly found" and wonderful.

The irony is that most of the families from which the students in my children's school came from, including our family, went to one of the five Chrisitan churches in town. While the majority of the student body came from, at least, nominally Christian families--certainly, families which just a generation ago were unabashadly Christian--their faith, their beliefs, their culture were being not only downplayed but portrayed as, somehow, "bad," while all other cultures/beliefs, including Native culture/spirituality, were lionized and included in the curriculum. (When, for instance, I asked my daughter's teacher if she was going to mention to her class, who were learning about slavery, that it was largely British Christians who led the movement to emancipate slaves, she sheepishly admitted that she hadn't planned to. Perhaps, she opined, I or my husband could come into the class to talk about it...? 'Never happened... 'radical feminist principal probably nixed THAT idea...)

Perhaps IF multiculturalism in the West had actually posited that ALL cutlures/faiths were equal, we Judeo-Christians in Canada, the U.S., and Europe--whose ancestors laid the groundwork for modern democratic freedoms in the West--might have stood a chance at holding the floor and, therefore, holding our own.

The reality has been, however, that our hands have been tied behind our backs, we've had a gag put in our mouths, and we've been relegated not so much to the back of the bus as right off the bus.

There are many who would agree with me but wouldn't EVER say it out loud, for fear of the assured backlash from the politically correct brigade, who have held the purse strings to government and educational grants, not to mention the bully pulpits of the MSM.

We in the West seem to be suffering from a collective amnesia about our spiritual heritage. It is our Achilles Heel and it is having a devastating effect on our ability to stand up to the militant Islamofascists in our midst. We no longer seem to have any standards by which to discern right from wrong, friend from foe, common sense from insanity.

Without a vision, the people perish.

I agree with you ET, but, what motivates Islam to self-examine? Islam has to suffer a significant failure before it has the motivation to do so.

How can I download it, and from where?
Posted by: Johan i Kanada

HERE

Google FLV player and install. It's free and easy. You will need it to play the file.

yes, me no dhimmi, I'm aware that Popper wasn't a fan of Aristotle. In my view, he misunderstood him, so I just ignore those sections. [I'm a fan of Aristotle.]

Socialism IS a conceit, isn't it?

Hans Rupprecht - I don't think your analogies are valid. Agreed, that not all Muslims are also Islamic fascists, but that's not the point. The point is that the Islamic world has been unable to adapt to the modern world. It has admitted industrialism into its territories. Via oil and the results of oil: cars, computers, planes, big cities. But, it hasn't changed its lifestyle to enable its population to be active agents in industrialism. Just consumers. This inability to adapt to the modern world..has had two results.

Both of them are a refusal to self-examine What We Are Doing Wrong in Islamic Nations..Both results are directly due to a refusal to come to grips with the fact that Islam, as an ideology, doesn't allow the population to Be Modern.

The religious, social, political and economic ideology of islam functions only within a tribal political mode and a 7th century economic mode. That's the problem.

The Islamic world has reacted to the appearance of industrialism in its 7th c borders by either trying to revert back to the 7th c and hold onto that lifestyle (this is the agenda of Al Qaeda and Islamic fascism) OR by trying to get the West to change and submit to an Islamic tribal sociopolitical lifestyle.
That's the problem.

These two strategies of No Change in the Islamic World are deeply affecting us in the West.

The first strategy of Islamic fascism, or the Return to The 7th Century, attempts to keep out industrial actions in the ME by bombing the West. Remember?

The second strategy of 'Dhimmitude', which is a tactic of non-self-examination, attempts to change the West to 'be Islamic'.

Neither strategy is going to work. What is going on now, is the painful, violent phase where the Islamic world is realizing that its ideology has never been thoroughly examined - and must be, and even, must be transformed so that its followers can be participants in the industrial world.

The islamic world is still trying to deny that this self-examination must happen. But, the fact that the West is standing up and refusing BOTH strategies - refusing Al Qaeda's Islamic fascism (and we have the USA to thank for that)...and refusing 'dhimmitude' (and we have film-makers, cartoonists, authors to thank for that)...is exactly right.

The movie is good, but all the clips have been available for anyone to see. Not many people have read the Koran though and not many know exactly how vicious it is to non-Muslims.

I am waiting for the documentary on the historical Mohammed and how the Koran rips off the characters and events of the Old and New Testaments. Islam has a problem with Jews and Christians because Jews and Christians know that the Koran has stories of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Rachel, Laban, Moses, Mary, Miriam, Pharoach, Haman all mixed up in time and place (Mary the mother of Jesus shows up as Miriam the sister of Moses - two people separated in time by about 1000 years; Haman of the Persian Empire circa approx. 400 BC shows up in the court of Pharoah circa approx 1300 BC; Abraham is told to sacrifice Ishmael, while anyone who has read Genesis knows that Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac).

It doesn't matter whether you think these are all just fairy tales, the fact remains that the Koran plagarizes the Bible and then says that the Jews lied in their book. What is up with that? The Torah predates the Koran by approx. 900 years (if you take it to the time of Ezra) so it is pretty much copy right infringement/intellectual property theft.

If anyone converts out of Islam to Christianity they will read the old and new Testaments and then they will know that the Koran has ripped the characters and events off of these older books, rearranged them to suit their purposes, and then called those who ascribe to the original version liars. Converts must be killed because they could pollute everyone with this knowledge and then the whole thing could crumble.

After carefully going over live-leaks excuse for pulling this vid it makes no sense.

If a person or organization really believed in free expression or the right to information they would have been willing to take the threats. Its not like journalists don't get them all the time, right?

No at the base of this is a very real cowardice that has crept into this culture. When those yellow bellies in Montreal walked away from those Women who where shot, it said more about this culture than I think where all prepared to listen too.

We are being bullied into submission by our own cultural ennui, with threats by barbarians. Incredible!
Its time we all realized we could be casualties of these nuts .

If we really believe in our individual liberties this is the time to stand on your hill & fight or die. If not, you might as well be in the chains of a slave.

Ask yourselves would this be done by this company if it where any other group?

Thank you for those who saved this piece of propaganda. This bowing under the yoke of Islam, only just proves the films theme.

The next question is obvious. What next will they demand we surrender?

accepting the Al Aqsa mosque on the Temple Mount, is accepting dhimmitude.

The only reason that mosque is there, is to state that Islam is dominant over what came before. The mosque was built there because that is where King Solomon's Temple stood (destroyed by the Babylonians) and where the second Temple stood - the Temple where Jesus threw over the tables of the money changers and which was destroyed by the Romans to end the Jewish Revolt.

Al Aqsa means "furthest". Furthest from what? From Mecca and Medina. Islam is not indigenous to Jerusalem and I don't know why we have to continue pretending that it is.

If CTV was reporting that the video was "soon to be banned", was it banned because of media requesting it? How did they know?

Hans: "unwritten error that Fitna asserts is that all Muslims are blood thirsty" -- I saw nothing in the film that would suggest that and I don't think that most people think that all Muslims are guilty of this type of extremism. I think you are reading that into the film.

Also -- I think the point being made about the Koran is that the Muslim extremists justify what they are doing based on verses from the Koran. Yes there are also violent passages in the Bible, but no one is going around using them to promote large scale violent attacks on innocent people.

RE: "Where is the moderate voice of Islam"
I think it may be much harder for people within the Muslim community to speak out against this stuff, to the extent that the thugs may already be in charge of their "organization." It probably would be very helpful to them if the secularists and other Western voices started getting really angry about this stuff instead of cowering all the time and trying to stifle truths about what is going on. NOBODY IS ACCUSING ALL MUSLIMS OF PROMOTING THIS STUFF, but there is a small group of Muslims creating BIG problems for all of us.

Bet you're real fun at parties:(

Blazingcatfur:

Well if one is going to posit as ET has done that Islam needs to be confronted in order to reform, as Christianity has done over the centuries, then at least hold out the hope that Islam is capable of reformation rather than slamming the door shut on the idea.

Alternately, the Christian-Muslim dialogue should cease and we pick up the cudgel and go at it. I would suspect that would be a long long battle.

Or maybe the whole dust up is just about power and money and it doesn't mean a whole lot.

Cheers

Islam is not a religion. It pretends to be. It is a tiotaletarian ideology. Remember Coresh at Waco? Mohamad was the same kind of Svengali psycho. Except back then in that place, the populous were so ignorant they went for it.

This is an informative read: "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895260131/ref=ase_robertspencer-20/103-1603172-8127010?v=glance&s=books

The book provides good historical background and makes the point that there are some important ideological differences between Christianity and Islam that make it unlikely that Islam will "evolve" as Christianity apparently has.

This is an informative read: "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895260131/ref=ase_robertspencer-20/103-1603172-8127010?v=glance&s=books

The book provides good historical background and makes the point that there are some important ideological differences between Christianity and Islam that make it unlikely that Islam will "evolve" as Christianity apparently has.

John Daly, We have argued with you and now yoyu want us to visit yoyur site. Ha! It is obvious you are a spineless herbivore of ideas.

ex-liberal>

I found both your comments impressive and well said.

Oh, Oh . . .another leak that will need to get plugged:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/theatre/news/story/0,,2269165,00.html

John West: I have borrowed one of your comments, I hope you don't mind, for illustrative purposes. It can be found here:

http://johnnymaudlin.blogspot.com/2008/03/you-cant-go-much-farther-west-than-this.html

Kate: is this kind of thinking really alright by you? I'm not talking about banning John West. You'd be more likely to want to ban me. I'm not talking about censoring the kind of insanity being spewed by folks like West. Simply asking you to come out from hiding and answer: is this the kind of idea you support?

As LiveLeak is based in Manchester, England, any guess as to which morons with an agenda in the dhimmi Brit MSM compromised the company? The Labour gov't feeling the heat?

That fundamentalist Islam is a disgusting blight on humanity is a given, it's the creeps among us that facilitate this evil by denying us freedom of speech that are the most despicable.

One effective way to kill the Death Cult is to mock it into oblivion. It deserves to be assaulted by every rational person until it reforms or perishes and that can't happen if forums for freedom of speech are denied us. Right now as I see it the good fight is demanding our rights to free speech.

John Daly>

Not to sound unkind, but I believe my earlier assessment of you, as a pot smoking old hippy with Marxist views is still valid.

Honestly, your loathing of “strait minded” posters who espouse conservative thought along with an obvious jealousy of this successful blog truly diminishes any character you may have.

Your clouded judgment (drug induced?) fails you miserably deluding yourself that you are both intelligent and worthy of other peoples ear. The FACT that you have no readers seems to not deter your fantasies that you speak for the majority of available readership in the blogosphear. You find yourself trolling successful discussion sites unsuccessfully soliciting an audience thus lowering your credibility to a loathsome creature not unlike the Golum character in Lord of the Rings.

You sound very much like that occasional hetrophobe troll who frequents this site with the moniker volik/ rolik, I’m beginning to think you may be one in the same.

Again it’s not to be unkind, but simply a help line from another perspective. Sometimes people need that in their lives so there it is, success proves itself.

This is from Mark Steyn at The Corner:

"All the news that's Fitna

"Geert Wilders' film is a hit - over 1.5 million views in English, over 2.5 million in Dutch last time I checked - but it's nevertheless been yanked by LiveLeak, with the following statement:

" 'Following threats to our staff of a very serious nature, and some ill informed reports from certain corners of the British media that could directly lead to the harm of some of our staff, Liveleak.com has been left with no other choice but to remove Fitna from our servers. This is a sad day for freedom of speech on the net but we have to place the safety and well being of our staff above all else.'

"Indeed. The Internet will keep Fitna alive in odd corners hither and yon, but only to those who actively seek it out. In the wider world, it goes without saying that such a film is unacceptable, and that this time round the pre-emptive rage (as Diana West calls it) was so successful the next Fitna will have an even harder time: no movie theaters or broadcast networks or obscure cable channels would even consider showing it, and Google and YouTube and the other Internet biggies have grown increasingly comfortable with political speech-policing, and now one more small net operation has learned that, unless you want to be a 24/7 crusader on this issue, it's not a business worth being in. In effect, the Islamobullies have been rewarded yet again for threatening physical violence. The best way to end the debate is not to make the price of having one too high.

"To reprise Douglas Murray's point below, a film such as Fitna might not even be necessary were the western news organizations not so absurdly deferential toward Muslim sensibilities that they go out of their way to avoid showing us anything that might cause us to link violence with Islam. Even that footage of those depraved West Bankers jumping up and down in the street and passing out candy to celebrate 9/11 appears to have been walled up in the most impenetrable vault of the archives these last six years. Both CNN and the BBC could only bring themselves to show the Danish cartoons by pixelating Mohammed's face - the first time this technique has ever been applied to a drawing, as if the Prophet had entered the witness protection program. At one level, they make Wilders' point for him, but, at another, they make it less likely anyone else will step forward to try to make the point next time.

"In reality, it's the small band of people trying to resist the de facto universalization of Islamic prohibitions that have to enter the witness protection program. Wish Mr Wilders good luck. Neither his own government nor the feeble equivalence peddler who serves as US ambassador to the Organization of the Islamic Conference are much help to him."

And God help us when truth is considered expendable in order to assuage the feelings of the most barbaric among us.

John Daly>

Not to sound unkind, but I believe my earlier assessment of you, as a pot smoking old hippy with Marxist views is still valid.

Honestly, your loathing of “strait minded” posters who espouse conservative thought along with an obvious jealousy of this successful blog truly diminishes any character you may have.

Your clouded judgment (drug induced?) fails you miserably deluding yourself that you are both intelligent and worthy of other peoples ear. The FACT that you have no readers seems to not deter your fantasies that you speak for the majority of available readership in the blogosphear. You find yourself trolling successful discussion sites unsuccessfully soliciting an audience thus lowering your credibility to a loathsome creature not unlike the Golum character in Lord of the Rings.

Again it’s not to be unkind, but simply a help line from another perspective. Sometimes people need that in their lives so there it is, success proves itself.

John Daly,

To sound mean and unkind as you deserve to be treated, you are a an old brain-dead hippie whose time is long past. You are an anachronism and you will soon be completely forgotten as an anomaly in the reality of life. This world will be a far better place once all the old hippies are dead.

I think I have caused your stomach to burn. That pleases me. You have assigned me a swastika on your site. I don't mind that as I see it as a symbol used by many cultures in their decorative art work. I am all for the art of other cultures, but not necessarily their politics.

It's a shame that the socialist Nazi regime used the swastika as a symbol under which to do much of what the Muslims are doing today. That entire concept escapes your drug addled brain apparently.

Re the homosexuals. I think they would do well to not ally themselves with groups that will kill them as soon as they get an opportunity. You and they don't grok that concept either ... apparently.

You are nothing but entertainment around here. No one will take your utter stupidity seriously.

Got roll a doob man ... like it's Friday night eh?

Al Aqsa means "furthest". Furthest from what? From Mecca and Medina. Islam is not indigenous to Jerusalem and I don't know why we have to continue pretending that it is.

Posted by: ex-liberal ;

An excellent observation.

Let me be clear about what my comments are saying.

1. We have a beef with 'radical' islam. They are sworn to destroy us. We are presently at war with them in Afghanistan and Iraq. Our soldiers are killing them and they are killing our soldiers. I think we need to step it up or forget about it. The Marquis of Queensbury rules don't work with with these people.

2. Those of us in the West who continue make excuses for them by blaming the USA and Israel for the poor down-trodden Jihadis are the Left including the CBC, CTV, women's groups, gay groups, the NDP., University students and many others. When I suggest we do something about that I mean we need to continue to expose them for the traitors that they are when for example they support the Palestinians over the Jews. They do this by either speaking out against our side in the terror war or by not speaking out in support of even the Muslim women who are subjugated by Islam and treated as sub humans. This is wrong.

When I suggest the we will need to be more bloodied by radical Islam, I mean that for many, 9-11 was enough. However, for many we just had that coming to us and so on or George Bush did it. It will apparently take a lot more 9-11 type attacks before they realize this is for real and it has nothing to do with us, but rather something that is wrong with Islam.

When I read about Muslim fathers murdering their daughter for not wearing a big sack to school in Canada, I know there is something wrong with Islam and that is an outrage. John Daly, what do you think should happen to young Muslim women who want to fit in the Canadian society? Think they should die or be allowed to live their own lives? I will be interested to hear your answer.

I certainly don't want to cause any trouble for Kate and if she thinks that I go over the line at any time, I invite her to delete my comments.

I happen to fully realize what is at stake here with the Jihad against the Free people of the Western world. I think most people who frequent SDA do as well. Eventually the majority with be aware. I only hope that by that time it won't be too late to save ourselves.

Anyone or any group who wants to co exist with my world is welcome. I don't care what race color or religion. I am not prejudiced or bigoted against anyone for being who they are ... However, I am not welcoming to those who want come here to destroy our freedoms and kill us. I don't care what color or nationality they are. Presently those people are radical Islamists and our own Leftists who support them.

Every time some mindless twit like Avi Lewis goes to work for Al Jezeera, (as he just did) that is a small victory and a step forward for the Jihadis and a slap in the face to all Canadians. Avi is a communist elitist that has no idea what will happen to him if his pals win the terror war. Neither do idiots like Jack Layton and many other fools in the MSM, in Ottawa and in the Democratic party in the US.

I hope that clears it up for John Daly and other stupid people that don't understand much of what's going on around them.

I am simply speaking up for our way of life against those who want to destroy it. I don't wish anything bad to come to those who simply want a better life even if they are Muslim. I can't help but believe that not all Muslims want this kind of misery.

Hans Christian posted, "Even one of the Apostles lopped off Malthus's ear prior to the crucifixion, but we don't see 2 billion Christians all becoming ear loppers in the same way that 1 billion Muslims are not all head choppers".

Hans you didn't go far enough in the ear chopping. Immediately after the ear was cut off Jesus rebuked the chopper and said "Those who live by the sword die by the sword". Then Jesus healed the man who had lost the ear.

I got a sneeking hunch that if Peter was Mohammed's disciple Mahammed would have rebuked Peter for not doing a more thorough job and then shown Pete how to its done by cutting off Malthus' head.

hmmm, it may just be the conspiracy theorist in me but JohnDaly sounds like he's trying to bait kate into an HRC ordeal. It sounds suspiciously like entrapment when he demands yes or no answers, kinda like a lucy warman perhaps? I just calls 'em as I sees 'em and methinks he's a rat.

The video's being hosted at no-libs.com as well...

Kelly>

Actually I may think you have it the other way around. If this JohnDaly is actually stalking the blog administrator of this site or it’s John West poster I would suggest they have a legitimate complaint against him, particularly John West if the publisher is personally slandering him.
I would think that associating JW’s character with a nazi symbol on a web site is intent to create prejudiced hatred towards him and possibly an attempt to incite bodily violence from a prospective reader that may attempt to track the real JW down.

Fortunately JD doesn’t seem to have many readers reducing the likelihood of a violent attack against JW, but he does seem to be using his underachieving blog site as a weapon nonetheless.

Just another perspective anyway……………

Joe:

Glad you got the selective editing method.

It merely illustrates that one can focus on certain passages, out of context, to get the desired result.

Cheers

link to movie:

http://groepwilders.com/

it's on youtube as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCrCsTMokTU

BINGO!

Ops, my bingo was for these two statements.

Posted by: Knight 99 at March 28, 2008 10:01 PM
Posted by: John West at March 28, 2008 10:18 PM

Exactly what I was thinking as well.

The movie is incredibly depressing. It reminds of a film called "Osama" that follows the life of a 6-year girl living under the Taliban.

After watching, I honestly feel sorry for kids like that 6-year old girl. I couldn't imagine living my life in such appalling ignorance. Being a UK Muslim and denouncing the freedom that makes a vibrant city like London possible. Denouncing the uber-social liberal culture of Holland that one's parents emigrated to in the name of freedom and opportunity. It's bizzare - these people are in severe need of a reality check.

The only hopeful part of the video is when a page is being metaphorically "torn" out of the Koran.

I didn't have a chance to read all comments here but if the quote from Steyn that there were about 2.5 million hits in the Netherlands is true (before LiveLeek shut it down) then 15% of the Dutch population saw Fitna. That's significant.

It might just mean that the average Dutchman is starting to wake up. Bullies are bullies until they are called out and even putting this thing on LiveLeek (for a while) is a start.

**Apologies if this is a double post**

Ted, a Liberal and a lawyer, uses typical liberal, "progressive" techniques of twisting words to make a point, rather than actually using compelling arguments to make a point.

Please notice his use of the label "Anti-Muslim", as opposed to the more accurate label "Anti-Islamic". Ted, SDA-ers (if I may be so bold as to speak collectively on their behalf) are most assuredly NOT "Anti-Muslim" as we hold nothing against the Muslim people except for their adherence to the violent ideology of Islam. Indeed, we support the mission to Afghanistan to free our Muslim "neighbours" from the oppression of radical Islamic theocracy.

To put it another way, we "hate" the "sin", not the "sinner".

To any Muslim who stands up and denounces the violence and barbarism of their radical brethren, we will stand with them (as Belisarius and others have apparently done). To any Muslim who preaches peace and tolerance, we offer peace and tolerance. To any Muslim who preaches intolerance and hate, we offer intolerance and resolute defiance. To any Muslim who rejects criticism, we offer criticism.

We are "Anti-Hate" (we oppose the "hate" of the Islamic religion against all others), we are intolerant of the intolerant (using the classical definition of the word "tolerance", unlike the perverted use of the word "tolerance" by the homosexual lobby which they actually mean to be "celebration") and, because Islam is foundationaly violent and intolerant, we are "Anti-Islamic".

Why is it acceptable to be "Anti-Christian" (as the elites of Western society "liberally" espouse) but not "Anti-Islamic"? Why is it okay to oppose a religion that preaches and practices peace and love, but it is not okay to oppose a religion that teaches and practices strife and hate?

In a nutshell:

The Islamofascists have a "religious memory," right up to a second ago.

The West has lost its "religious memory," which puts us in great jeopardy.

To ignore this reality is to ignore a central reason why the West is in the predicament it's in and why our young people and our so-called "intelligentsia" seem completely incapapble of recognizing the devastation at their doorstep.

How was it that the Islamist Jihadis have been able to advance to not just our gates but are now within them? By an acquiescent and pliant citizenry in Europe--and now in the U.S. (less so) and Canada--without the spiritual weapons with which to resist and, when necessary, fight for our freedoms.

Certainly, it will take wake-up calls like Fitna to shock us awake, and I'm grateful for Geert Wilder for putting the clips together to show us, simply, what's happening. But Fitna serves only to diagnose and expose the disease.

The cure is something else altogether.

John West, I agree with you. But so many in the West live in Never Never Land: some are my friends. Reality and facts have nothing to do with their perceptions. Discussions threaten friendships and, furthermore, don't make a dint in their fantasies. On this issue, we seem to be seeing two solitudes: two very different perceptions about the threat of Islam, including the collusion of our liberal elites, and those of us who see a clear and present danger that should be met much more boldly.

There are microcosms of this lefty “flight from reality” all around us. John West writes, “They (the Left including the CBC, CTV, women's groups, gay groups, the NDP., University students and many others) do this by either speaking out against our side in the terror war or by not speaking out in support of even the Muslim women who are subjugated by Islam and treated as sub humans. This is wrong.”

Yes this is wrong, but Canadian society seems to be embracing the unjust and dangerous model of excusing the bully and abandoning the victim, who is left to fend for themselves. In 2008, this seems to be a systemic problem in this country.

E.g., The subjugation of Muslim women and their treatment as sub humans with no help from those who should know better, reminds me, quite honestly, of the treatment of teachers in Canadian public schools. The abuse, of course, is not as extreme as that of Muslim women, but teacher abuse by certain students and their parents—allowed by the system—is dangerous, demoralizing, and subverts the legitimate authority of both the teacher and the system. Then the cycle of abuse and degradation of both the victims and the perpetrators continues, with many public school classrooms being hell to be in and manage: forget the teaching.

The principle of the bullies getting away with being bullies, with the collusion of the powers that be is the same as the abandonment of Muslim females to their fate: the insubordinate, barbaric behaviour of horrendously socialized students of inadequate, belligerent parents is glossed over all the time. Excuses are made for the student: Behaviour Codes are ignored. Teachers are pretty well in agreement that consequences for unacceptable behaviour simply are not being carried out by those whose job it is to do so. Many teachers have decided to deal with the worst behaviour themselves, as best they can, as a trip to the office usually ends up with administration “making nice to” and excuses for the miscreant. No matter how egregious the behaviour, there is a tacit understanding that the teacher has somehow failed if he/she can’t handle the situation.

Sometimes the teacher needs to get tough—I’ve found that that’s the only way to deal with bully students seriously acting out: they understand and even respect someone who takes them on and doesn’t insult them with the “soft bigotry of low expectations”. On occasion, a complaint about a teacher’s discipline will be made to the office, usually by a belligerent, inadequate parent. It used to be that the focus was on the student’s poor behaviour and administration would back the teacher. The Charter has changed all that: a complaint usually turns administration’s focus on the teacher’s behaviour and, no matter how justified (I’m not talking physical abuse, though just touching a student’s arm is now construed as abuse), teachers find themselves hauled into the office to justify THEIR behaviour.

Being bullied, seeing the bully getting support and treated with kid gloves, while the victim is left to muddle through really wears one down. Given my own experience in a system that actually rewards bully behaviour—the anti-bullying programs are an insult: all perception over substance—I can understand a little bit what the subjugated Muslim girls and women are dealing with. The situation of being abused, with those in control turning a blind eye is humiliating, scary, and, yes, dangerous for the victim. Actually, it’s dangerous for all of us because, as a society, we’re breeding a generation of thugs.

From a post by DJ over at the Shotgun Blog:

Of course totally unaddressed by Wilders is the issue of responsibility for the existence of 50 odd million Muslims in Europe. Why (and who encouraged) the mass migration in the first place?

Kevin MacDonald:

"Political correctness in the West cannot be maintained without constantly ratcheting up the social controls on individual thought and behavior. Western societies will experience increased ethnic conflict. Their governments will increasingly be obliged to enact draconian penalties for deviations from political correctness. And probably also to “correct” ethnic imbalances in social status and political power—much as the Hapsburg and Ottoman empires of old were forced in their declining years to constantly bargain with rising ethnic pressure groups. Democracy, representative government, and freedom will be likely casualties.[...]

The response of the Left has been to entrench a culture of “political correctness” in which expressions of ethnocentrism by Europeans are proscribed. Organizations such as the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League seek draconian penalties against such expressions by Europeans—and only Europeans. Many European countries and Canada have savage legal penalties that enforce intellectual conformity on these issues."

http://www.vdare.com/macdonald/080327_muller.htm

DJ's "post" is actually a response to the thread "Liveleak pulls Fitna"

Regarding the issue of 'mass migration' of Muslims to the West, it is unreasonable to expect and unethical to insist that 'defined groups' stay in one spatial zone of the earth. That ignores that we are all a common humanity, a singular species of homo sapiens.

It also ignores that the world doesn't operate within those far-off 'closed spatial zones' anymore. The advent of a global economy, and global electronic information networks has effectively reduced space to....nothing.

With the increase of global population, groups can no longer be socially and economically isolate. The establishment of industrialism, an economic mode that specifically rests on vast spatially distant networked interactions, which sees resources extracted from one site, manufactured in another, consumed in many others - means that isolation of peoples to confined spatial zones is unworkable.
Again, our informational network ignores space. Space simply isn't a viable variable in the modern world anymore.

Peoples are moving around. The old notion of living in one town all your life..is gone. The modern mode is to even work in multiple cities at one time, to have 'pads' in various countries. Or, to do it serially, to move from job site to site, even for the same company.

The situation is, I suggest, as I've outlined before. The Islamic world, operating in the 7th century, was brought into the industrial economic world with the two world wars. Its ideology, a social, economic and political tribalism, was entrenched as a religion and therefore, its axioms were closed. This Islamic mode is entirely unsuited to an industrial mode of life - and the Islamic world is struggling with dealing with this problem.

Its first attempts have been to refuse to examine its mode of life. Indeed, Al Qaeda fascism is an attempt to return to the 7th century, to reject both the source and actions of industrialism. This won't work. The Islamic population is now too large to live 'the old way'. The US pushed this fight against industrialism back into the ME. That's where it must be fought - between the tribes - until they realize that the historic era of tribalism is over.

The other tactic is to change the West, to insist that it's the Western beliefs and behaviour that must change, and the West must adopt Sharia law etc. The fact that the Islamic beliefs and laws are unsuited to an industrial economy hasn't been examined by these people.

The post WWII West attempted to deal with the immigration influx by multiculturalism, by accepting their 'different' beliefs and behaviour. But, this isn't working. No society can function with a hodge podge of random, non-coherent behaviour. The very notion of 'society' is an acceptance of common beliefs/behaviour.

Then, there is the actual ideology itself. Islam is less a religion and primarily a sociopolitical economic mode. A tribal mode. It rejects the individual, rejects reason, rejects freedom. These are all values that the West fought for and won - and cannot abandon. Furthermore, they are a requirement for an industrial economy.

Islam must move into a phase of self-examination. It has set itself up as unable to do so, with its rejection of individualism and reason. However, the West did the same to itself in the medieval period - and fought its way out of that morass.

Therefore, the West has to constantly confront Islamism, insist on criticizing its axioms, insist on examining, debating, reasoning those axioms. Islam cannot continue to prevent examination of its economic and political axioms by calling them a 'religion'. It has to question, examine and debate its ideology. These actions by the West are exactly what is needed to Break The Wall behind which Islamists are hiding.

Again, confining anyone to a spatial zone, insisting that 'they' can't immigrate is actually similar to the Islamist attempt to live back in the 7th century. We can't do that. What we must do is to reject a 7th c. mode of life and insist on the primacy of reason, equality, free speech and individualism. That means - examining their axioms as well.

"What the Mohammed cartoons have done is force political correctness to overreach."

And so it begins

An ex-Muslim cartoonist is authoring the first R-rated cartoon film showing Mohammed and his 9 year old bride according to the Gateway Pundit. The Sugiero blog writes: "Ehsan Jami decided to reject Islam after the 9/11 terror attacks. Since then he has defended the right of religious freedom, with the usual consequences ... "

Jami is in hiding in the Netherlands. Sugiero remarks that Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende, who "has written a letter to Indonesia's largest Muslim organisation, Nahdlatul Ulama (NU) in which he says that the views presented in the anti-Qur'an film of populist leader Geert Wilders do not represent those of the Dutch government" will be writing a lot more letters. Yesterday for Wilders, tomorrow for Jami, and the day after for who knows who?

In an earlier post I predicted that European leaders, "Human Rights" committees and all the assorted enforcers of politically correct speech would eventually be trapped in a whack-a-mole mode. They'll be busy fighting a cultural counter-insurgency.

If al-Qaeda is smart it will do the unexpected and refrain from issuing any more fatwas; to quit presuming a veto power over Western cultural and political institutions. If Islamic radicals back off, most people will lose interest in these Mohammed parody cartoons, which frankly have a limited market on their own merits and whose attraction is principally that of symbols of resistance. But if groups like al-Qaeda continue with a campaign of intimidation and terror, they will be met with a campaign of blasphemy the likes of which they never imagined possible. And who knows where it goes from there?

But al-Qaeda, though clever, is fundamentally stupid. They are like those brainless thugs who yell their way through a crowd and, finding someone who refuses to give way, believe that by yelling louder they'll gain passage. A smart thug would know that he's come upon the Black Swan; that he's run into trouble and should move around. But fanatics, armed with a presumed divine foreordination, don't believe in the existence of surprises; they think they know the future from their doctrine and bull on. But they don't know the real mind of God; they only think they do. Nothing surprises the fanatic more than the belated discovery that he doesn't know everything.

And so, the Islamic radicals will likely go on assuming that the asymmetrical warfare rules which paralyze governments necessarily paralyze whole populations. They might commit their tame media outlets, hired academics, cowed liberal intellectuals and all their instruments of information control to a campaign aimed at suppressing dissent inside the West. And my guess is that the instruments of political correctness will shatter under the effort of waging a sustained cultural counter-insurgency. They will use up their own jihadi cultural fifth column in futile attacks against never ending targets. Political correctness works when applied in small, gradual steps. What the Mohammed cartoons have done is force political correctness to overreach.

One of the enduring lessons of history is that the worm, tormented long enough, always turns. ...-
Read more about the 8 tremor earthquake and the Ace Factor.
http://tinyurl.com/2ekf93 (belmont club)
...-

Sugiero blog:

Thursday, March 27, 2008
Netherlands: Another Islam Critic Movie - Aisha & The Sexually Aroused Muhammad
http://tinyurl.com/2rdubc

ET: "Islam must move into a phase of self-examination."

That's certainly the hope, but isn't it ironic that our Western "intelligentsia" and chattering classes are the ones who seem to be requiring that the West do the self-examination ("if we hadn't done thus and so, they would never have felt the need to attack us") and that it's the West, not Islam, that is examining Islamofascism and finding it particularly wanting?

What will compel Muslims to do the self-examination necessary to adapt to the industrial age in which the world is living today? The Christian West--the majority of Europe until very recently--"constantly confront[ed] Islamism, insist[ed] on criticizing its axioms, insist[ed] on examining, debating, reasoning those axioms," and, yet, their efforts didn't seem able to convince Islam that they shouldn't "continue to prevent examination of its economic and political axioms" or their self-identifying as a religion.

I'm curious as to what you think is self-evident about Islam's having "to question, examine and debate its ideology." Islam seems to think that it neither has to do this nor does it have to come out from behind the wall beind which it is hiding.

It seems, rather, to want to defeat the West and stash our reality, our history, our corpses behind their self-protective wall.

Lookout,

Nice post and I agree with you. I happen to know many teachers through my work, and I know what you are talking about. I am no fan of the ed system or the teacher's union, but I agree that when a real teacher wants to teach and need to get some discipline in the class room and even the hallways which are sometimes horror zones, they are the mercy of the offended student, parents and the principals suck up to the alleged aggrieved.

When I went to school we got slapped across the back of the head and sometimes worse for misbehaving. If we got out of hand we were kicked out and then had to splain to our parents who then would punish us for shaming them.

What an upside down world the Liberals have given us.

I tried to hang on to a few of Lefties whom I was friends with, but as time went on I lost so much respect for them that I could no long be in their company. I know that sounds bad, but these differences are no long small matters. I am much happier socializing with folk who I agree with on most things. There is more mutual respect understanding and freedom to just have fun.

I should mention that whenever I found myself in complete political disagreement with anyone, old friends or acquaintances, I feel disrespect for them, but I feel visceral hatred coming from them toward me. For them it's more personal because they don't have arguments for their positions, just great belief and emotional investment ... sort of like Islamists.

Late in on the discussion,and this situation has been well discussed here.While the media and some blogs are caught up in Earth Day,and the silly Martin woman,yet another 'media' has received death threats, buckles to terrorists, and it goes unnoticed.Almost surreal. I have always sensed the enviro whackiness is a distraction from important issues. This proves my point.
I would only add that the common thread of NDP and Avi Lewis types,CBC and university students as well as so-called progressive-liberals is their hatred for the USA, and that plays so well with the terrorists.

ace commented:
'The only hopeful part of the video is when a page is being metaphorically "torn" out of the Koran'
I understood that was a page ripped from a telephone directory in England.

Inasmuch as the Christian West--the majority of Europe until very recently--constantly, as ET asserts we must, confront[ed] Islamism, insist[ed] on criticizing its axioms, insist[ed] on examining, debating, reasoning those axioms (from ET's and my posts above) the Christian West was successful in stemming the tide of Islamist influence in the West.

When, in the last century, the Christian West--which, BTW, was more than able to adapt to industrialism--forsook their spiritual heritage to become the surrender-monkey, Secular, Humanist, Socialist West, we became sitting ducks for the rush of Islamist thought and immigration to the West.

Our red flags did not go up, our instinct for self-preservation did not kick in, because we'd already given up our individual freedoms to the false-security of the "freedoms" (sic) of the collective.

batb- the West hasn't critiqued Islam. It has instead accepted it without thought within the mantra of multiculturalism. It has only begun to critique it with 9/11, and the bombings in London, Madrid, Bali and elsewhere.

The al Qaeda bombings were a 'wake'up' to the West, which realized that a particular ideology was attacking their mode of life: industrialism.

As I said, there are two tactics Islam has developed to deal with its problem - the problem that Islam is not a religion but rather a specific economic, social and political mode of life - and one that is trapped within the 7th c. How do you deal with a lifestyle that is then defined as a sacred religion and thus immune to change? You dig your heels in...and refuse to change. So, Al Qaeda's agenda has been to return the ME to the 7th c. Pre-industrial. And attack the industrial West.

The non-violent tactic has been to insist that the West transform itself to Islamism. That's been made easy by the sophistry and ignorance of the leftists of the West, who fall easily into liking Islamism because it fits into their socialist collectivism.

Remember, the socialist left rejects the right of the population to reason, to think; we are all 'beer and popcorn' types who must rely on the elite (the academics, the govt bureaucrats) to make all decisions for us. So, the socialist left actually likes the political style of Islamism, because it operates the same way. The individual is denied reason, denied freedom of thought and speech, and must rely on His Betters. That's pure leftism.

What is happening now, is ..two things. First, in the ME, where the US pushed the violent Al Qaeda strategy back into the ME. And the people there don't like that violence. Furthermore, they don't want to live in the medieval 7th c. They want the modern lifestyle. So, they are themselves starting to reject that old mode.

In the West, finally, multicultural relativism is being challenged. It is no longer seen, as kate outlines it, just as 'more pavilions in a multicultural festival'. It is actually being seen as an active campaign by the Islamists to, not accept our way (ie, to themselves be multicultural) but to deny our rights and way of life and privilege theirs.

Multiculturalism is being challenged in a way that has never occurred before. John Tory, in Ontario, lost an election over it. It's not something that we are talking about; but we are acting against multiculturalism. Europe, in particular Denmark, the Netherlands and even France, are acting against the Islamist 'soft take-over'.

And in the Muslim world, more and more Muslims are speaking up, writing articles about the need for reform, speaking up about the need for reform.

You ask - what is 'self-evident' that Islam has to reform? The fact that industrialism exists; industrialism requires reason, individualism, dissent, critique. Therefore, not only the Islamic countries but the West have to operate that way.
The fact that the Islamic world has accepted industrialism.
The fact that their population is now too large for a tribal way of life.
These are facts. So, whether the Islamic world likes it or not, it has no choice but to enable a lifestyle that permits its membership to operate in an industrial mode. No choice. They are now part of the global industrial economy. They can't live in the 7th century.

Of course, it is fighting it; you don't give up an ideology in the blink of an eye. But, it's inevitable. Remember, all of this is in the last 50 years or so. It takes time. The changes since 9/11 have been enormous - and we'll see an escalating proportion of changes in the next few years.

This is precisely the problem. Fitna is being defined as 'hate' for openly exhibiting the hate of Islamist imams, fanatical murderous Muslims and Islamic hate literature, disguised as holy texts.

That is irrational and unacceptable:

United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon comes out strongly against free expression.

"I condemn, in the strongest terms, the airing of Geert Wilders’ offensively anti-Islamic film. There is no justification for hate speech or incitement to violence. The right of free expression is not at stake here. I acknowledge the efforts of the Government of the Netherlands to stop the broadcast of this film, and appeal for calm to those understandably offended by it. Freedom must always be accompanied by social responsibility."

"There is no justification for hate speech or incitement to violence."

Agreed. So, why are the world courts and the blue helmeted troops not locating these Islamic preachers of hate and locking them up? Why is Islamic hate literature not being examined and declared precisely that?

"and appeal for calm to those understandably offended by it"

Offended by witnessing offensive Islamist behaviour? Offended by Islamists quoting hate straight out of their sacred literature? Offended by murderous Islamist actions? Offended by an aggravated and well managed assault on western freedom, including freedom of speech?

"Freedom must always be accompanied by social responsibility."

Agreed. As long as we understand that our social responsiblity is to protect our freedom, rather than destroy it.

Ban ki moon's twisted statement was completely unexamined prior to releasing it. Illogical responses like this are beyond surreal, they are harmful to western freedom and should be condemned.

ET said: "You dig your heels in...and refuse to change."

Hell yes.

Regarding the issue of 'mass migration' of Muslims to the West, it is unreasonable to expect and unethical to insist that 'defined groups' stay in one spatial zone of the earth. That ignores that we are all a common humanity, a singular species of homo sapiens.

As a libertarian I could agree with this -- but only if the the unethical-immoral welfare state were disassembled. Until that time, this is a bogus argument in the REAL world AS IT IS.

Moreoever, as the West simply does not KNOW how to distinguish between islamists intent on destroying our civilization and immigrants who genuinely want to assimilate into western civilization, and until such time as it learns to do this, this is a bogus argument in the REAL world AS IT IS.

ET: I sometimes use the phrase "street smarts" in my criticism of some of your posts. Here's an example. Radical suicidal idealism.

So, ET: maybe just get rid of he CA-Mexican border?

No human is illegal?

That's a hard-left notion designed to destroy western liberal democracy.

Thanks, John, for your comments. Yes, having liberal friends can be very stressful. In fact, I self-censor. As I said, facts, of which I have far more than they seem to--"Ignorance is bliss" seems to work for them--don't put a dint in their PC armour and also often lead to unpleasantness. So I sustain a number of what I guess must be considered half friendships. I should really assess if that's worth my while. However, where I live and work--PC CENTRAL--people like me are very few and far between!

Re the Muslims: even if we should be successful at stemming immigration and that culture's bellicosity, we, in the West, still have our own, untamed barbarians, who are growing, like weeds, right in our midst. Out of the frying pan into the fire? And the lefties, who control virtually all of the institutions in the West, fiddle.

Depressing, I’d say.

I’m simply don’t understand why certain individuals want to throw our doors wide open to mass immigration, particularly from the third world? What’s so inevitable about globalization that the third world has to live on our doorsteps?

“Regarding the issue of 'mass migration' of Muslims to the West, it is unreasonable to expect and unethical to insist that 'defined groups' stay in one spatial zone of the earth.”

Africa for example can easily feed itself, as can the Middle East and South East Asia. I watched a CBC documentary the other night (starving planet?) where the reporter was being told by Afghanis that Canada needs to send more food aid, then they tossed their free grain sacks over their shoulders and trotted off through their poppy fields.

We do not have to allow the third world to populate our countries, what on earth can they possibly benefit us, cultural enlightenment? Watch National Geographic or get on a plane.

Watch this video to see the stress of mass immigration on American infrastructure, the seminar is older but time has proved its accuracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

We have done great as western societies and cultures without the third world or Islam, what is wrong with certain individuals who think that is a bad thing, something to be ashamed of? Why would you care to commit yourselves, children and the rest of us to your cultural suicide…because it feels like the right thing to do?

Moreover, ET: There's a grave inconsistency in your view. On the one hand, you point out -- and I agree fully -- that we have no obligation to "money launder" the fruits of our successful economic system to the 3rd world thru phony Kyotoism -- no moral obligation so "share" our wealth with this 3rd world; but on the other hand, in your post above, you defend your defence of unlimited mass-muslim-migration on ethics grounds.

Makes no sense at all.

Note: Ending mass muslim immigration can be achieved without specifically targeting muslims by getting back to a saner basis for immigration, namely, choosing immigrants on the basis of needed skills -- for OUR benefit -- and abandoning the rotten notion of "family re-unification".

A report in France recently has shown that with this kind of immigratiion the costs greatly exceed the revenue, and that the argument that we need this immigration to pay for our elaborate "social safety net" [pensions etc] is bogus for that reason. I believe that our own Fraser Institute has concluded the same about Canada.

We need to get back to the highly moral profit motive -- our profit, not theirs.

Just another brick in the wall between the UN and the Western Democracies.

Hate speech is only hate speech when said by White Christians, preferably male and preferably straight.

Strange Deadly Brew

me no dhimmi - Where did I say 'unlimited mass immigration'? I said immigration.

I'm opposed to some people who insist that ethnic or religious groups should stay isolated from each other, in 'their own country'. So, we get posters here who say that NO Muslims should be allowed into the West...That is, they reject any immigration.

I certainly don't want our current 'Everyone Come and Call Yourself a Refugee and We'll support you' type of immigration. I don't want people coming here and going on welfare - as so many do, and as so many more do in Europe.

I'm all for skilled immigrants, who will learn English, who will work rather than go on welfare, and who acknowledge that they are coming to a country with a particular legal, social and political system, and that they can't demand any special treatment from our way of life.

ET, you say that "the West hasn't critiqued Islam."

I'm no historian, but surely they critiqued it, found it wanting, and actively repelled it from their societies at the time of the Crusades and when Spain sent the Muslim Moores packing.

As far as my limited historical understanding goes, Western Christendom/Europe was constantly vigilant concerning the threat of Muslim infiltration/takeovers of their territories. As I've said so many times before, it is essentially BECAUSE of Western Christendom's shared/common beliefs and values that it was able to discern the danger of Islam to its counties' mutually beneficial communal way of life.

Since the rise of socialism in, until recently, Christian Europe, common beliefs and values no longer exist. Socialism has divided us into automotons, with competing beliefs and values. That's the way the socialist overlords want us: weak and vulnerable so they can divide and conquer.

So, this is what the once-strong Christian West has become: an apostate, flabby, fragmented, comfortable, complacent, let-someone-else-do-it assortment of odds and sods as replacements for once commmonly held spiritual beliefs and values, which protected women and children and our mutually beneficial communal way of life. Until recently, until the leftie brigades of political correctness invaded us, there was a consensus about what was worth fighting for. No longer.

Here we have Islamofascists in our midst, desiring our harm, perpetrating violence, death, and destruction and we can't agree that we need to act decisively to repel this threat.

This is not progress. 'Seems to me that the Europeans who mounted the Crusades and the Spanish forces that ousted the Muslim Moores from their country were way ahead of us. Who says that "evolution," "modernity," and "advancement" are inevitable?

Correction to above post: Muslim Moors

batb - I don't think the West critiqued the ideology. It didn't know very much or care about the Islamic ideology. It just, militarily, defended itself against military attacks and economic control by the Islamic countries.

I don't think that the Crusades were strictly and only against Islam; they were also, I think, due to internal strife in the Church's control of the population. But that's another topic.

What is happening now, is that the isolation of Islam from the rest of the world has been broken. It has moved into industrialism, and the size of its population means that it can't return to a non-industrial mode.

An industrial mode requires a middle class. That means that the Islamic mode of life, which is tribal and doesn't have a middle class, can't continue on.

As well, the fact that industrialism as an economic mode is necessarily global (resources from A,D,E, manufacture in B,C, consumption in everywhere)...means that isolationism won't function anymore. The Islamists have to come to terms with the modern world.

Yes, the leftist strategy of dealing with the migration of people around the world has been wrong. Multiculturalism or relativism is disastrous.

No, 'ousting the Muslims' from our or any country won't solve the problem. The economic mode of our time is a networked globe. We can't return to an era of several centuries ago where peoples could be, in part, isolated. Furthermore, the informational era that we live in is also global. We can't undo the internet.

So, we can't do what the Islamists also want. They want to return to the 7th century. Do you want to return to the 13th? Can't be done.

The economic mode of industrialism is global. The information mode is global. And.. The world population of 6 billion is too large for isolate nation-states. 'Progress' is inevitable; depends in large part on the population size.

So, Islam is going to have to deal with its ideological inability to enable its followers to live and work in the modern world. It's going to have to transform and reform that ideology.

And we in the West have to insist that we don't give up our own hard won values.

ET, the problem is--visit any public school, or university, or government office, or . . . and check out the one-size-fits-all, multicultural, socialist mindset--we've already, internally "give[n] up our own hard won values".

bluetech,

I understood the tearing of the phonebook to mean the Koran because the next scene follows up with the phrase: "It is not up to me, but up to Muslims to tear out the hateful verses from the Koran."

It could have a double-meaning - stopping Islamic immigration.

Thank you for your responses, ET. Although I don't think we'll ever totally agree on one another's take on things, I appreciate your serious grappling with this huge predicament we in the West find ourselves in vis a vis Islamofascism/immigration policies and how to move forward.

I'm not advocating a return to the 13th century or that we oust our North American Muslim immigrants, but I'm with Me No Dhimmi on how we deal with future Muslim immigrants: We need to get "back to a saner basis for immigration, namely, choosing immigrants on the basis of needed skills -- for OUR benefit -- and abandoning the rotten notion of 'family re-unification'."

We need to live, in other words, as though we have enemies and stop saying "peace, peace, where there is no peace." I'm not saying that you've said that, but that that is the tack being taken by the the socialist, multi-culti/diversity/politically correct brigade. The destination of their lay-down mentality is a no-Exit cul-de-sac, which will be very bad for us.

I also agree with lookout's assessment of our situation vis a vis your notion of our not giving up our own hard-won values: We already have.

Has anyone else been disappointed with the reaction of European leaders? I don't expect them to get up and applaud, but do they have to be so abject when they try to distance themselves from the message in this film? I know they have a lot of pressure on them to keep peace but could they not manage this with some sort of dignity? I don't suppose they remember just how successful the policy of appeasement was when they dealt with Nazi madmen. This bothers me a lot.

lookout, batb, ET too (teachers all): Off topic, but dying thread, so presume it's OK:

Sign on fish tank at my local grocery store, just encountered:
Please do not feed the fish except Eric in Produce.

Damn good chuckle I tell ya; too bad there wasn't a Wanda in produce, eh?

lookout: Yes, that's the thing: we've already surrendered; you're in reality, ET's in her head on this. However, it looks like the CPC is quietly re-engineering immigration with a certain objective which of course must remain unnamed.

rita: My reading is that the European leaders actively want massive muslim immigration and therefore want to suppress any view which might question this. See Bat Ye'or's Eurabia. She nailed it.
A few months back, Brussels refused to grant a license (!) or a peaceful assembly commemorating 9/11 and violently manhandled protestors, including politicians, who assembled anyway.

Object: A Euro-Med empire to rival the great Satan US. More power. They're tired of their little provincial backwaters.

MND, not off topic: a parallel. The appeasement of the most barbaric behaviour of our entitled kids and the dhimmi status of those who should be in charge is a microcosm of the situation the West is in with the jihadis. Really.

If we're willing to allow the barbarians to rule in our schools, why should we be surprised when it happens beyond? I see the problem in both places as synonymous with the gutting of our culture. If we want to be successful in big things, we need to be successful in smaller things. The West is failing on both counts.

Me No Dhimmi, I must really be out of the loop then. Looks like I'd better start doing some more reading. Thanks.

rita: You're most welcome. Yeah, I read 5 of Bat Ye'or's books including Eurabia (warning: pretty dry stuff). I found her thesis compelling, but always wondered if there might have been a bit of conspiracy theory in there! Not so, as it turns out. The website Brussels Journal is a good place for monitoring Euro-appeasement of radical Islam. Also dhimmiwatch, and jihadwatch. Also try Melanie Phillips Londonistan and Bruce Bawer's While Europe Slept.

lookout: Just keep fighting your good fight and try not to let the bastards get you down! (referring to spot of despair I thought I sensed in one of your posts on another thread). This lunacy will pass, maybe during a massive economic downturn when people stop being silly and start worrying about real problems.

Thanks for the encouragement, MND. Hope is a Christian virtue, but sometimes it's hard!

I hope you're right.

me no dhimmi and lookout - well, I don't think that Europe wants massive Muslim immigration. They've allowed it to happen over the past few decades and are now stunned by the results of both the immigration and their isolationist multicultural policy.

They are now starting to retrench and reject multiculturalism. Slowly. But it will happen. You can't have a society operating as a hodge podge of non-compatible beliefs and behaviours. In the beginning, when there was a strong substratum of 'old Europe' beliefs/behaviour, the new immigrants could be viewed as 'more flavour at the folk festival'.

But now that those same immigrants are isolated, unassimilated and insisting that they should live within their old former country's beliefs - Europe is stunned. They'll reject the hodge podge. As I said, no society can function as a random collection of non-compatible beliefs.

Lookout's problems in the classroom and the spineless administration are horrifying. They are direct reflections of the appeasement policies of postmodern child-rearing, where somehow, some inner 'essence' of the child was deemed to exist, and this inner essence had to be expressed. The focus wasn't on learning but on individual and personal expression...without constraints. The pendulum is swinging to the other side, as more and more parents send their children to private schools to get out of the 'I'll do whatever I want to do' freedom of the public schools. Eventually, the public schools will have to change, as they lose students and control.

ET: Well, I certainly agree that they are stunned and that the immigration project did not start out as a willful destruction (guest workers, and all that) of western civilization. And certainly Bat Ye'or doesn't make that argument either. More like, "Omigod, look what we've done ... it's irreversible, so let's keep a lid on it" + Yankee-envy - neo de Gaullist desire for a competing empire etc. BUT, unless I'm misreading things, I see no signs that Europe is restricting the wrong kinds of immigration. I see no signs that the Imams are being taken off welfare (Anjem Choudary - sp? -- is receiving 25K pounds a year in Britain while openly preaching jihad and openly recruiting).

I admire your optimism, which I do share in glimpses from time to time. I'm certainly feeling a tiny bit more optimisitic with the incipient signs of push-back. And I also completely agree with your observation about the pendulum. In fact, in conversations with a very good friend, I sometimes opine that under the surface there often percolates a unseen resistance to elitest lunancy which builds and builds and builds and then explodes, when least expected. As you point out, vis-a-vis outloook's travails, parents DO gradually get the picture and gradually take rational defensive measures. BTW, a customer of mine -- a school principal -- once expressed this contemptuous opinion of parents: "They once went to school so they think they're experts on education". Needlless to say, I remained mum out of self interest, but I was thinking "well they're experts on their own kids!".

ET: One more thing. I wish to take back and apologize for my criticism of your views on Israel/Zionism as "anti-Semitic". If you're curious, I came to that sudden conclusion while reading a recent George Jonas piece on the subject in the NP. Frankly, I get extremely emotional on this subject and sometimes go overboard (a couple of very distubring e-mail correspondences with old friends who are true anti-Semites didn't help).