Well, we all know how the French love their Jews. They love them to be bound, gagged, and tortured, it seems.

Six accused of attacking, torturing Jewish teenager in France. March 5, 2008
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080305.wfrance0305/BNStory/International/home

Jews have no future in France. Nor anywhere else in Europe I would think.

The French should take a pill. Relax, mes amis. The Germans won't be invading you anytime soon.

Not to worry. The French will abort themselves and refuse to procreate sufficiently that they will be out of existence very soon.

Life eeez sheeet, and we are joos chemicals, eh, anti-Christian politically immature frog?

France does not like to speak about WWII. It never happened.

72 millions people died in WW2. (direct and indirect deads). That's a lot.

6 millions jews were exterminated. That we should remember, but we should also remember the 66 millions others who died. (99% of the deads were innocents)

Doug: life is indeed just a chemical reaction that is feeding on low entropy. Read some biology books. Atheism is the future of humanity. God is a delusion.

ASF above me here, is proof of why the Holocaust Will happen again.

Actually, the French eat younger cheeses than do North Americans. The sources I have read say that North American taste was shaped by the fact French cheese was exported and therefore arrived more ripe than typically consumed in France. It would be more appropriate to describe France as a land of flavourful cheese, as North American cheese in supermarkets typically tastes like wax.

If these euro-weenies were not such pussies, every child would tour one of the concentration camps.

I went through Bergen-Belsen, and it left a mark on me that will last until the day that I die!

BTW, it is nice to see that the french tradition of surrendering/cowardice/abdicating responsibility is alive and well.

Note to the UN......if you want to save lives, do not send French troops(with the exception being the Van Doos!)

I hope they also learn about the Fascist French Vichy government which rounded up and deported 10s of thousands of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals,Freemasons, Communists and French dissidents to Nazi Germany for liquidation.

They had an active eugenics program to cull society of "undesirables" and preserve "the French race" and were quite tight with both Mussolini and Hitler.

The Vichy government was also the toast of International anglo Progressives like H.G. Wells, George Bernard Shaw Margret Sanger Emily Murphy and Aldous Huxley.

Will they learn THAT in France??

An interesting article from the Washington Post on the Democrats wanting America to be liked in the world: The Myth of America's Unpopularity.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/americas_popularity_not_all_th.html

It contains this great comment about France:
" But President Charles de Gaulle remained more interested in the cultivation of French self-esteem than in trans-Atlantic unity. Having withdrawn the French Mediterranean fleet from NATO in 1959, he later ordered the removal of NATO troops from French soil. President Lyndon Johnson (in one of his finest hours) instructed his secretary of state to ask de Gaulle: "Does your order include the bodies of American soldiers in France's cemeteries?"."

winston churchill on charles de Gaulle

'everyone has their cross to bear...MINE is the croix de Lorraine."

"Unsurprisingly, the French are against this. "

And the unspoken last sentence? "Because they are teh anti semites!" You don't get the hang of this free speech thing. At all. Fake claims of anti semitism contravene every moral code that man has conceived of.

I've never seen a lasting, widely adhered to moral code that says "thou shall not discriminate", but every code contains a provision against bearing false witness.

Making a false claim of anti-semitism is no different in kind than lying, cheating, or stealing in any form. It is a reliable indicator of defective character.

I've got news for you anti-Christian child, there is no future for your kind. Like I said, as long as you keep aborting yourselves and not procreating, ISLAM will rule France in a few generations.

Nothing to say about this? Didn't think so. It's because you are incapable of seeing clearly anything that has happened before your puny little life and having the vision to picture things past it.

I would think that it is obvious that the french have spoken with their actions over the years.

Shipping children off to nazi concentration camps would be just one example.

How these actions could be construed as "bearing false witness" is beyond me.

Geeeeeeeez!

How mentioning these actions.........

Just a little more proof that France will not be around much longer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/07/wfrance107.xml

Choice quotes:

"One of the more surprising findings was that one-in-five French men aged between 18 and 24 "manifests no interest in sexuality", while abstinence rates for men under 35 was twice as high as for women."

"Ms Bruni recently declared monogamy "terribly boring" and spoke in relaxed fashion about her numerous past conquests...'I am faithful... to myself.' "

"How these actions could be construed as "bearing false witness" is beyond me."

Lots of things are beyond me; what I do is shut my cakehole and listen to people who know what they are talking about.

When a gearhead tells me the new Ferrari XYZ has a great engine I don't backtalk him, I listen to him. I don't pretend that my Ferrari knowledge is equal to a guy who is passionate and devoted to Ferraris. I don't feel "entitled" to the same level of respect on the matter of Ferrraris as the gearhead, that is illogical.

Accordingly, people who haven't done their homework on matters of history and anthropology, and like to smear those of us who have, need to shut the hell up.

The French just freely elected a Hungarian Jew as President of the Republic. This is antisemitism? Has Canada ever elected a Jewish PM? There is only one Jewish premier I am aware of, Bob Rae, and he was elected as an Anglican. The list of nations with a Jewish head of state or PM is pretty short, therefore claims that France is antisemetic need to be scrutinized closely.

Ad in a Paris Newspaper:
For sale: One rifle, brand new, only dropped once.

In a few months French troops may be fighting side by side with Canadians in Afstan (or freeing up U.S. troops to do the same).

Also, one doesn't need to look as far as France to see vicious anti-Semitism. The entire Federal NDP, and a significant chunk of the Liberal Party of Canada is infested with anti-semites.

No country should be above criticism, including France. But the present matters too.

Bought-and paid for. (The only question is: Who bought-and how much did they pay?)

Kate,how is it that you (correctly) refuse to accept responsibility for history of European and North American slave owning and trading, but you appear to endorse the notion that the French of today must do eternal penance for the sins of those now either long dead or old and feeble and mostly beyond hope of influencing events? If someone presented this institutional guilt-tripping "education" plan to me and asked me whether I wanted my son to relive the horrible last days of an innocent child in a hellish time long past, I'd tell them to go pound sand. I can teach my child right from wrong without assistance from the bumbling education "system", thanks.

It isn't ALL the French who are opposed; it is SOME. And I think it is understandable; all societies live within their myths.

The French don't like to think about surrendering to the Germans in 7 days, to setting up the Vichy government, to their collaboration in mass deportations and so on. They prefer the memories of Napoleon and the Revolution. So, they don't want ANY memories of themselves in WWII.

After all, we Canadians have our own myths. About our superior health care system, our nature as 'global peacekeepers', as 'tolerant and calm'.

We reject the facts - that our health care system is a mess.
And 'keeping the peace' often requires military acts to set up that peace and we have no right to leave that military act to 'the Rambo Americans'.
And we've never been put in situations where we have to defend ourselves or fight for our economy. So, we can always be 'tolerant and calm', especially since we always blame the Americans for any problems.

For example - Gun crimes in Canada? We blame the Americans who sell the guns, not the Canadians who purchase and use the guns!

Sarkozy's idea is excellent, but, myths are hard for societies to dispense with.

Occam, the answer is that the French (The Left, most of France) still clings to the principles. It's a warning to the rest if us that if we allow our nation to slide in the same direction as France, we will not be able to climb back up.

Does that answer your question?

When Germany invaded France, the French army was much larger and had more tanks and artillary than did the Germans (historical fact). The only ingredient missing was courage. Even to this day the French still build tanks equipped with backup lights.

This "shielding the children's innocence" business comes up at the most convenient times, doesn't it?

Nobody ever mentions it when the issue is violent TV shows, too much skin on billboards, nude beaches, street walkers, people who dress their kids like street walkers. "Hey, sex is natural, don't be such a prude, dude!"

But expose kids to the fact that their grandfathers sent a whole bunch of little kids to the Nazi death camps? No, we can't have that.

Ross, some historians assert that after WWI France was a completely defeated nation with no will to defend herself. After WWII all that were left were collaborators and traitors, the valiant died in battle.

And what's left? (get it? "LEFT") are beings like our anti-Christian frog who cling childishly to the notion that his puny ideas are the salvation of mankind, unable to comprehend that through the sheer force of numbers, his beliefs will crumble under the boot of Islam.

I'm compelled by fairness to add that absent the Nazi invasion I doubt the French would have done anything terrible to the little Jewish kids. And the French Resistance were a pretty serious bunch, so that was good.

Maybe its just the French government that sucks. Kinda like Canada under the Liberals.

Good on France! It’s about time western nations woke their youth up about their freedoms they take so much for granted. Possibly they won’t be so laissez-faire about giving it away to the tolalitarians that have invaded their country recently in the name of Islam!
At least they will have the opportunity to understand fully what the friendly religion of peace now in thier midst has in mind for them besides burning a few cars and gang raping the odd french woman passing by. It really can get much worse.
Japanese children could use a heavy dose of uncensored reality on their side of the pond also. As could ours (“lest we forget”)!

Hey, Occam...the slave trade was a Islamic thing ...ending the slave trade was a western liberal democrat thingie...just though you should know.

..... I wonder if the French “youths” you know the Algerian ones burning the French cities down have to take the mandatory Auschwitz reality check? Maybe the whole exercise is really intended for them? Wonder what the local peace loving Imam will have to say about it? They claim the holocaust never happened, what a bummer if French law for once doesn’t exempt them with the special entitlement privileges they are so accustomed to and forces the “youths” to attend, I see France glowing like a roman candle…………………

ET,

I had some hope for your comments when you said:

"It isn't ALL the French who are opposed; it is SOME." You were briefly able to distinguish between sweeping generalizations and specifics, but then immediately went on to say:

"The French don't like to think about surrendering to the Germans in 7 days." Really? Does that weigh heavily on the minds of "the French" today?

Doug,

Allow our nation to slide in the same direction as France? You should become a policy adviser for the backward French. I'm sure you'd have a lot to offer a nation that has existed, in some capacity, for millennia.

Phantom,

Wandering child, so lost, so helpless, yearning for guidance. Are nude beaches and familial histories related to Nazi death camps really as similar as you suggest?

Read fully about the Sarko plan and reaction. You'll notice that most criticism focused on the fact that his 'holocaust mentor' plan avoids Vichy.

Giving a generation the impression that it was only foreigners who shipped innocents "just like them" to the ovens, when you could argue the collaborators were at least as responsible, might certainly be worse than not having then learn individual histories like Anne Frank's.

What a lot of sanctimonious dribble. You honestly think the Jews would have fared any better in England and Canada in 1939 on the heels of an invasion by the dreaded Huns? You're dreamers if you think so.
Also, what is the extent of your study of WWI events that equips you to speak with any knowledge concerning the opposition of the French against the invading German forces? It was fierce and resulted in the deaths of about 1.5 millions, over 4 million wounded (about 1.5 million permanently maimed) and over half a million PoW or missing. That has been estimated at 73% of the total mobilized.
Besides the military, out of a civilian population of about 40 million, six in ten men between 18-18 died or were permanently maimed. We can't imagine it, nor can we understand the long-term effect.
Re Jews being turned in. It happened in Poland also. This will offend anyone raised in the R.C. church, but years of being taught by the clergy that the Jews killed Christ wouldn't prepare you to become their protectors under such circumstances. And that goes for most Protestant denominations in Britain and Canada in the 1930s if you want to be totally honest.
Some also want to believe that the French don't remember WWII. Nonsense. A brief tour of Normandy would soon put that to rest.
They are French, for heaven's sake, just as I carry all the little signs of arrogance and superiority of my English heritage.
If you have a legitimate dislike of the French, fine. But don't get caught up in perpetuating fairy tales.

"Hey, Occam...the slave trade was a Islamic thing ...ending the slave trade was a western liberal democrat thingie...just though you should know."

Thanks for the update, WLM. I will revise my false notions about the basis of the cotton economy of the South. I will also stop referring to all those Africans who came over to N.A. on opulent cruise vessels as "cargo". Clearly they were wealthy, carefree tourists, enjoying their luxurious cubic metre of space to the utmost.

Occam's Carbuncle>

Exactly! Most of them do fare a hell of allot better in the US than if they had stayed as slaves in Africa! Ask 50 cent! They should be kissing the feet of the American founders for the opportunities they would never have had if they had remained the slaves of Islam or local African warlords. Al Sharpton and company need to check their Rolex watches and set aside some time for history lessons instead of lobbying for further entitlements.

I don't quite know what to say to that. I think I'll go wash my eyes.

You really think it's admirable to be a carbuncle?

While not going as far as Knight99 who implied the slaves were on vacation, it is true that, many generations later, the descendants of slaves are much better off in the US than the descendants of those who were left behind.

For proof of this, there are many, many black Africans who have immigrated to the US over the last few generations and not many that have gone the other way.

I think this may have been the point that Knight was attempting to make.

And let's kill another myth while we are at it:

The French economy is more productive than the American economy. On a per-hour basis the French worker produces slightly more value than an American worker. Source: Captian Capitalism, the OECD, The Economist, and a few thousand others.

That's France, in 2008: a more productive economy than America.

You have a link for that?

Warwick: I'm impressed that you didn't call me a "frog", which is what you repeatedly call French people on your blog and this blog.

In this context, don't ever backtalk or question me again you little punk.

Don't address me, don't even refer to me. You are the very definition of an internet troll, as evidenced by Googling your name.

The onus is on you to be non-ignorant, not on me to provide links to information that an educated person should know by rote. Your idiocy and absolute ignorance of economics is your problem, not mine.

I don't ever want to see backtalk from television watchers again. Don't do it. You WILL accept what I and your superiors tell you.

Re: slavery check out William Wilberforce for those who know their history. He led the charge on abolishing slavery in the British Parliament. At the outset he was routinely derided, ignored and held out as a pariah. Why? Because he offended the slave traders wallets.

A pretty good film about Wilberforce was recently in the theaters.

Yep, just a little too Anne Frank.

The National Socialists justification for excoriating the Jews was in the mileau of crushing inflation due to WWI reparations and a broken imperialist economy. The broken democracy of the Weimar Republic with its pitched street battles and political murders were the ideal recipe for the likes of Hitler. If it wasn't Adolf some other goon would have taken the reigns. My grandfather was among the Lancers that was putting down the navy mutineers in the city of Kiel in 1919.

If history was taught without glossing over complicity on all sides; people would have a greater appreciation of how easily so called 'civilization' just slips away. Further, Adolf and company didn't get to power without being aided and abetted by some heavy duty industrialists on all sides of the Atlantic.

Even Preston Bush was cited for "Trading with the Enemy Act" in 1942. The Silesian Coal Company used slave labor in Auschwitz which was held through Brown Brothers Harriman according to public records. Investments in Nazi Germany were routine knowledge of the period leading up to and including WWII. Of course it is impolite to talk about it now.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100474,00.html

One of the main ingredients is a simple INDIFFERENCE to the plight of others.

It is a little tougher to 'stand in the wind' when it is not politically popular, whether the tyranny is slavery, National Socialism, Communism, radical Islamism, or corrupt democrats.

It all depends on how little one respects the lives of others. At the root of it all, its just about power and money, who's got it and who doesn't. Of course it is always the few who 'stand in the wind' it is not the many.

One of the reasons I don't accept the politicians who promise the 'heaven on earth' perfectibility of man. History has shown this to be an exceedingly bad bet.

Cheers

Warwick>

“I think this may have been the point that Knight was attempting to make”

Close to the point anyway. The major point is that black America and white apologists for the American slave trade can save their pointless guilt trips. Slavery was and has always been a reality of the African continent, with the largest perpetrators being the Africans themselves along with Islam. It still goes on today if anyone cares for that inconvenient truth.
A certain segment of early American society mainly based in the south, capitalized on this readily available resource of their time and were eventually removed from that position of power by the larger “white” society. What’s to apologize for? Suck it up black America; your enemies were 200 years ago and 4000 miles away.
When pointing fingers and searching for someone to hate and blame for your own feelings of worthlessness start with the first person you see in the morning when you brush your teeth.

fsafsaf

? "don't ever backtalk or question me again you little punk."

Are you for real or do you suffer some delusional ailment?

You made a claim, it's up to you to back it up.

And I'll call you worse than a frog you petulant little child.

Warwick, he and his anti-Christian twin are beyond self-parody. They are material for Rick Mercer and the SNL crowd. I'd laugh but they are just objects of pity.

[quote]If someone presented this institutional guilt-tripping "education" plan to me and asked me whether I wanted my son to relive the horrible last days of an innocent child in a hellish time long past, I'd tell them to go pound sand. I can teach my child right from wrong without assistance from the bumbling education "system", thanks.[/quote]

Occam's Carbuncle,
I agree with your premise, "Guilt Mongers" don't impress me One bit. The CBC radio production scheme/theme is a perfect example. The Truth should not be hidden but aggressive exaggeration can & may boomerang!

RE: Slave trading. I have ancestors that immigrated to New England "Cape Cod" in ~1630. They were Quakers with connections to Slave trading in the English Plantation Island of "Barbados". Barbados was a Staging area for slavers. The Plymouth Colony had Slaves that most historians ignore because it conflicts with popular belief. We as a Society have condemned those "Past" practices, what role would reliving those events have on today’s children.

fsaf - I don't think that a 'per hour' basis is the correct criterion to use in assessing the economic strength of a nation.

As you know, a key problem with the French economy is the domination of the unions within the economy, the high cost of these unions with the employer's inability to fire incompetent workers, the low number of work hours. This means that a higher proportion of Americans are in the work force than in France; they work more hours than in France.

I don't think that using only ONE variable, production by work hour, is indicative of a nation's economic viability. Even if you have one thousand sources for your data.

Phillip G. Shaw >

“What role would reliving those events have on today’s children?”

I would answer that by saying the role would serve to educate them in histories mistakes as well as the rewards. This is what will allow them to mature as a species.

On the other hand others use it for their own self-gain, demanding special rights and privileges in our societies to enrich themselves with both money and power.

We need to distinguish clearly the dual rolls of revisiting history with all its warts or lessons to children and allow them the opportunity and freedom to grow informed as well as leery.

There are ONLY tow kinds of people in this world..

One group works to improve life....

The other are busy f*cking it up for everyone.
Whether actively or passively these people in the second group .... NEVER give a crap about the consequences.

They are almost exclusively part of some Utopian cult .... that includes religious zealots, atheist zealots, socialists and most Lib / Left tools.....

"fsaf - I don't think that a 'per hour' basis is the correct criterion to use in assessing the economic strength of a nation."

That's because you are a hideously dishonest unionized acadamic with zero credibility or training in economic matters, and have a financial interest in perpetuating the myths of your generation so we don't cut off your pension.

You're just not very honest, or bright, or talented, or credible, or educated in economics, to put it bluntly.

In light of this, you should be thankful that an individual with a demonstrated - right in this thread - record of superior knowledge on the matter at hand has shared his analysis with a, frankly, ignorant individual such as yourself.

You of all people should know that a country which elects a Hungarian Jew as President cannot reasonably be described as anti-semetic. Since you stayed silent while others made this false claim, your dishonesty is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You know better, and you stayed silent, until I spoke up.

fsafsaf is right, ET. He's just going to keep humiliating you people until you get your facts straight. Everyone knows that France is more productive than the USA, why don't you?

Here is the proof, notice how poorly Canada does compared to so-called socialist basket cases such as Italy, France, etc.:

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per hour worked
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita per hour)
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This is a list of countries of the world sorted by their Gross Domestic Product (PPP converted) per hour worked. This is the value of all final goods and services produced within a nation in a given year, divided by the total annual hours worked. The GDP (PPP) per hour worked is a measure of the productivity of a country.

The table below includes data for 50 countries provided by the data base of the University of Groningen [1].

Data are in international dollars per hour.
Rank Country GDP
per hour 2006
1 Norway 39.66
2 Luxembourg 36.56
3 France 35.72
4 United States 35.29
5 Republic of Ireland 35.04
6 Belgium 34.17
7 The Netherlands 32.54
8 Austria 31.80
9 Sweden 30.86
10 Denmark 30.66
11 United Kingdom 30.13
12 Germany 29.44
13 Finland 29.17
14 Italy 28.97
15 Australia 27.91
16 Canada 27.90
17 Switzerland 27.44
18 Japan 25.61
19 Iceland 24.60
20 Hong Kong 24.58
21 Trinidad and Tobago 23.84
22 Estonia 21.88
23 Spain 21.67
24 Singapore 20.80
25 Slovenia 20.25
26 Republic of China (Taiwan) 20.21
27 New Zealand 20.10
28 Greece 19.41
29 Malta 19.26
30 Cyprus 18.75
31 Portugal 17.25
32 Slovakia 16.06
33 South Korea 15.91
34 Latvia 15.14
35 Chile 15.09
36 Lithuania 13.43
37 Hungary 13.13
38 Turkey 13.11
39 Venezuela 12.56
40 Argentina 12.56
41 Czech Republic 12.03
42 Poland 11.82
43 Barbados 11.03
44 Bulgaria 9.96
45 Mexico 9.24
46 Brazil 7.99
47 Colombia 7.88
48 Romania 5.77
49 Jamaica 4.94
50 Saint Lucia 4.75

We've all seen the game.

When a closet Liberal is under heat, he demands you provide a link.

When you provide a link, he says he doesn't like the link.

If you provide many links, he just calls you stupid.

If you provide proof you are not stupid, etc., etc............

Can we be better than this? Can we - meaning you - rise to a higher - meaning my - level of debate? Can we identify the people who are consistently bad debaters and ban them? Why not?

the french. terminally stupid.

Heh, fsaf - you're fun. A cross between the Red Queen and Humpty Dumpty.

By the way, Sarkozy was raised in a Catholic household, but don't crack your egg-skin over that. Facts have never bothered Humpty Dumpties.

Now, back to reality. A nation, indeed, nothing complex, can be evaluated using only ONE variable. That would be like evaluating you using only whether you were flat-footed or not. Hmm. Maybe that would tell us something about your knowledge base and intelligence. Hmmm.

Did you know that you can increase the ratio of the GDP per hours worked by REDUCING the number of hours worked? Heh. Bet you didn't know that. That means that because in France, its employment workhours are fewer than in the US, that ratio value is HIGHER!

Oh, and did you include other important variables, such as the COST of producing these goods? Or are you considering just the market value? Does it cost more in France?

At any rate, I'd suggest you check out a few more variables - such as GDP.I.
And the percentage of taxes on that GDP; unemployment rate, welfare rate, innovations, eg patents, investment capacity (%capitaltaxes) etc.

ONE variable? Sorry, safs/HD/RQ. No.

"the french. terminally stupid."

According to IQ And The Wealth of Nations and other sources France is one of the highest IQ countries in the world.

Statistically, France ranks 21 while the USA ranks 23rd, another myth shattered. What's interesting is the long term downward trend in IQ in America, a trend less pronounced if at all existent in France. Again, notice how Canadians are statistically stupider than the French, Americans, and many so-called basket case countries:

Country IQ estimate
Hong Kong 107
South Korea 106
Japan 105
Taiwan (ROC) 104
Singapore 104
Austria 102
Germany 102
Italy 102
Netherlands 102
Sweden 101
Switzerland 101
Belgium 100
China (PRC) 100
New Zealand 100
United Kingdom 100
Hungary 99
Poland 99
Spain 99
Australia 98
Denmark 98
France 98
Norway 98
United States 98
Canada 97
Czech Republic 97
Finland 97
Argentina 96
Russia 96
Slovakia 96
Uruguay 96
Portugal 95
Slovenia 95
Israel 94
Romania 94
Bulgaria 93
Ireland 93
Greece 92
Malaysia 92
Thailand 91
Croatia 90
Peru 90

Country IQ estimate
Turkey 90
Colombia 89
Indonesia 89
Suriname 89
Colombia 88
Brazil 87
Iraq 87
Mexico 87
Samoa 87
Tonga 87
Lebanon 86
Philippines 86
Cuba 85
Morocco 85
Fiji 84
Iran 84
Marshall Islands 84
Puerto Rico 84
Egypt 83
India 81
Ecuador 80
Guatemala 79
Barbados 78
Nepal 78
Qatar 78
Zambia 77
Congo-Brazzaville 73
Uganda 73
Jamaica 72
Kenya 72
South Africa 72
Sudan 72
Tanzania 72
Ghana 71
Nigeria 67
Zimbabwe 66
Congo-Kinshasa 65
Sierra Leone 64
Ethiopia 63
Equatorial Guinea 59

fsafsaf,
you haven't been around here long enough to demand anything.

alot of words proving nothing. when the rest of the world is as productive as the u.s. the planet will be better off.

Greg: do you feel "entitled" to live in your special little world wholly unconnected to reality? On a public website that encourages random people to comment?

Tell me more, because I'm genuinely curious as to why I feel like I'm crashing a party when I provide factually accurate data to correct gross distortions of reality. You should be thanking me for educating you, not sneering crap at me.

fsaf - I think we should ban egoists. Why?

Because their self-esteem, which is always false, reduces their capacity to describe the world to only their own perspective. Sort of like a Fly that asserts that only its view is The Right View. Well, a Frog might differ from that Fly, and heck, who knows, but the Frog might win the Argument.

You see, Fly..er..fsas..you don't debate; you don't analyze. You simply assert your perspective. Any fly can do that.

Pre-emptive sock puppet; there's something inherently wrong with that list(?)...
I scanned it twice but didn't see any mention of Mainland China OR India. What's up with that?
Looking at some of the nations farther down the list, I suspect that there's a HUGE under reporting of income, likely due to a flourishing cash-under-the-table economy.
On the other note, France's defeat in WW11 was in large measure due to Germany's exactingly built '5th column' in France. The REAL scandal was France's blindness to the building treachery within her borders, prior to her invasion.

That's some lovely wordspeaking, ET, but the score so far is Me 3, Everyone Else 0.

-French aren't antisemitic, as proven by me pointing out the election of a Hungarian Jew in a free election

-French are productive, as proven by me pointing out the high productivity rates of the French

-French are intelligent, as proven by me pointing out the relatively high French IQ.

That's what I've contributed to this thread, for free. I just educated hundreds of heretofore ignorant adults, for free, on some pretty fundamental stuff. Consider yourselves fortunate!

good god, fsaf - don't tell me you've fallen for that 'country IQ' hoax!!!

Sheesh - that has to be one of the DUMBEST values yet. Do you actually believe that a nation, which is a political construct, ie, an artificial construct, can have a BIOLOGICAL nature? My god, how dumb can you get?

Did you also know that there's no such thing as a group IQ? IQ is an individual value. That's a fact, fsaf. Bet you don't know anything about facts. Bet you think that anything you find on Wikipedia is fact, eh?

You remind me of someone who was banned from here, for the same behaviour - pompous egoistist assertion of his own superiority and a total dependence on Wikipedia, which he claimed, without basis, was The Truth.

Did you know that an IQ below 75 is 'mentally deficient' to the state that the individual is not capable of making decisions on their own? That would mean that they couldn't even cook their own meals, grow their food, drive a car!

Are you actually asserting that the people in Kenya, South Africa, Jamaica etc etc..are all mentally incapable of such actions?

You really are fun. I haven't come across anyone as delusional as you in quite some time. Now, go back to Wikipedia and check out 'delusional'.

fsaf-

1) FACT: Sarkozy is not a Hungarian Jew. He's a Catholic.

2) Because Sarkozy was elected, does not mean that anti-semitism does not exist in France.

3)Your PPP is not indicative of French productivity. One variable is not enough.

4)There's no such thing as a 'national IQ'.

5) You are, however, fun. Anyone who asserts themselves with such pomposity and stupidity is fun. You actually remind me of the (in)famous Mr. Collins of Pride and Prejudice. Heh.

ET - I think you made an error in your "IQ below 75 is 'mentally deficient'" comment.

It is at the 25th percentile where people are deemed mentally deficient to the extent you reference.

"good god, fsaf - don't tell me you've fallen for that 'country IQ' hoax!!!"

Heh, the last asshat academic who ran their mouth off like this, name of David Suzuki if I recall, got publicly thrashed in debate on his own left wing academic turf by Canada's expert in the field, Phillipe Rushton.

If you really believe this, ET, then don't waste your valuable time arguing with a nobody like me; call Phillipe Rushton and offer to debate him publicly.

You'll be famous as the first academic ever to defeat Phillipe Rushton in a public debate; I say go for it.

Not all French are anti-semites, and many did put their lives on the line in WW2 to protect the Jews, for example the town of Chambon-sur-Lignon (sp?).

France was truly divided in WW2, and it is still a raw wound for many: the easy surrender, and the collaboration. The problem is that they never owned up to their ugly past.

And who are we to criticize? How many boats carrying Jews fleeing Europe were turned back by Canada and the US? We have sent those people back to their deaths. We have blood on our hands too. Only a few countries, like Denmark, can claim they did their best to save the Jewish compatriots.

Finally, one comment about the GDP/productivity figures stated above. GDP in my book is only an approximation. If I pay my neighbour 100$ to dig a hole in my property, and he pays me 100$ to dig one in his, we added 200$ to the GDP without adding any wealth. I always hear how European countries are wealthier than us on much less worked hours, but a visit there shows me people driving puny cars, living in damp, cramped homes and with very few of the conveniences we take for granted here (for example 24-hour stores). A better measure of wealth, in my opinion, is how much energy is available per capita. On that we're way ahead.

"A better measure of wealth, in my opinion, is how much energy is available per capita. On that we're way ahead."

You had to pick the one country in the world which is currently developing a proto-nuclear *fusion* plant and call it lacking in energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

ITER is an international tokamak (magnetic confinement fusion) research/engineering proposal for an experimental project that will help to make the transition from today's studies of plasma physics to future electricity-producing fusion power plants. It will build on research done with devices such as DIII-D, EAST, TFTR, Joint European Torus, JT-60, and T-15, and will be considerably larger than any of them.

On November 21, 2006, the seven participants formally agreed to fund the project.[1] The program is anticipated to last for 30 years — 10 for construction, and 20 of operation — and cost approximately € 5 billion (US$7.6 billion), which would make it one of the most expensive modern technoscientific megaprojects. It will be based in Cadarache, France. It is technically ready to start construction and the first plasma operation is expected in 2016.

fsafsaf at March 7, 10:04 AM
==================
A little balance in this thread starts with fsafsaf at 10:04am

** The French just freely elected a Hungarian Jew as President of the Republic. This is antisemitism? **

The Phantom 11:21
=================
I'm compelled by fairness to add that absent the Nazi invasion I doubt the French would have done anything terrible to the little Jewish kids. And the French Resistance were a pretty serious bunch, so that was good.

Maybe its just the French government that sucks. Kinda like Canada under the Liberals.

Bart F @ 10:29
==============
** In a few months French troops may be fighting side by side with Canadians in Afstan (or freeing up U.S. troops to do the same).

Also, one doesn't need to look as far as France to see vicious anti-Semitism. The entire Federal NDP, and a significant chunk of the Liberal Party of Canada is infested with anti-semites.

No country should be above criticism, including France. But the present matters too. **

ET @ 11:04am
============

** Sarkozy's idea is excellent, but, myths are hard for societies to dispense with. **
=============================================

I too have taken cheap shots at France.. It*s easy and it*s fun, yet,

The French have warts in history, but they are doing much better these days.

Standing beside us in Afghanistan. Leading in alternate clean energy expansion. ..

France would really be on the right track if the guys would only quit smoking and live up the the love machine image again = TG

fsafsaf

Fine. A very slight difference in France's favour in productivity per hour worked. Back when I did my CFA, productivity in France was under 90% of the US. So yes, this is a surprise (if wikipedia is correct) but even if so, this is very recent and won't last. I'd also love to see the methodology. I'd like to see if there are differences in the methods used to calculate the figures between countries (as there usually is.)

Why won't it last?

-much lower labour participation (which is to say the unproductive dregs are on welfare instead of a McJob and with an aging workforce, expect that number to worsen,)

-less hours worked per worker and less people working isn't sustainable when your most productive workers retire (although I bet 2/3rds of the people could get as much done as they do now if they had 2/3rds of the time to do it in.)

And for that slight and temporary lead in GDP/hour, you buy a total GDP/capita that is what? 30% below the US (and no, I haven't looked it up so that figure is a rough estimate.) In other words, your per hour worked figure is a tad misleading. But I'll concede I was wrong on it.

And an ability to waste time on wikipedia isn't the same thing as an education. I'll put mine up against yours any day.

Phillipe Rushton is NOT an expert in IQ or biological properties or cognition. And anyone can defeat Rushton in a debate, because his claims are without evidential proof. He's been heavily criticized by experts in the field.

By the way, Rushton's claim is a 'racial IQ', not a national IQ. Bet you don't know the difference, fsaf. Rushton is trying to insert a biological value and that is highly debatable, because there is great variation within so-called 'races'. Nations, fsaf, aren't biological constructs.

greenneck- yes, energy is a good variable. Oh sheesh, fsaf, again, you've shown yourself up as trapped within Wikipedia. Energy isn't just nuclear. It's work energy - which includes not only the fossil fuels, nuclear, water and hydro, but also, the work energy of the population.

So, a 35 hour work week with umpteen days off and holidays etc, has less energy-content than a nation with a higher work-force energy capacity. Such as China and India.

Bet you didn't know that fsaf. Check Wikipedia again.

American testing of IQ in the private sector goes back decades. The market leader is Wonderlic, which administers a sort of mini-IQ test of 50 questions that employers pay good money for.

The National Football League has been testing prospects for decades via Wonderlic. They break the data down by profession. For example, see this article by Rick Reilly of Sports Illustrated:

"I coerced the people at Wonderlic Inc., a personnel testing company outside Chicago, into faxing me a copy of one of this year's six NFL tests so I could try it at home. They agreed only if I took the test under supervision and didn't give away the questions. My wife, Linda, stood by with a stopwatch and a spatula, in case I refused to stop.

I knew what I was up against. Only one person in 100,000 scores a perfect 50. The only NFL player to do it was former Cincinnati Bengals punter and Harvard grad Pat McInally, which explains why he chose to be a punter and not, say, a punt returner.

The average score for an NFL prospect is 19. The average score overall -- hundreds of corporations use the Wonderlic -- is 21."

The test itself consists of 50 questions that the participant is allowed 12 minutes to answer. The resulting number of correct answers corresponds to an intelligence quotient. Specifically, 21, considered an average score, is equivalent to the average IQ of 100. Higher scoring applicants are supposed to learn more rapidly, master more complex material, and exercise better judgment while lower scoring applicants tend to require more time, detailed task instruction, and less challenging job routines. 25 is the average score for quarterbacks and offensive linemen. Other positions average about a 20.

In other words, it is possible to aggregate data on a group, or subgroup, and apply it. The fact that Quarterbacks and Offensive Linemen are more intelligent than their teammates is no different in kind than reporting that France has a higher IQ than Canada. Not only is it possible, it is essential. More:

" Average scores for each position are: Offensive Tackle 26 Center 25 Quarterback 24 Guard 23 Tight end 22 Safety 19 Linebacker 19 Cornerback 18 Wide receiver 17 Fullback 17 Halfback 16 You can take a sample test for NFL players on the espn site here. http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020228test.html

Average scores for different occupations are: Chemist 31 Programmer 29 Journalist 26 Sales 24 Bank teller 22 Security guard 17 Factory worker 15 You can take a sample wonderlic test on the wonderlic site here. http://www.wonderlic.com/"

Notice how it is possible and relevant to quantify groups of people by their aggregate data. Chemists are, in fact, significantly more intelligent than factory workers, on average, according to statistics. American businesses accept this and profit from this knowledge, ET, why don't you?

www.ehow.com/how_2183917_wonderlic-test-out-iq.html

Oh gawd, are we having the National IQ conversation again? With all due respect to Kathy Shaidle, its a stupid idea who's time has long since come and gone. It doesn't measure anything useful, and Philip Rushton has been inadvertently proving that his whole career.

Tell you something else, IQ -changes- even in individuals. It changes with diet, with exercise, with access to technology and with training.

Lefties looove the idea though. Its so... collective!

fsafsaf

IQ may be measurable but if you haven't measured it (as most people haven't taken one) it's rather hard to make claims on 'national' IQ.

You would have to have a representative sampling from each nation.

Companies have also moved away from IQ tests to behavioural testing. It's of more benefit to test loyalty, judgement and honesty than pure intelligence for most companies. They even use them for factory workers now.

sheesh, fsaf - you are the dumbest of the dumb. Wallowing in Wikipedia. Do you ever get outside the box of Wiki? Do you ever think about what it says? Evaluate it?

It is possible to test members of a profession, ie, a SET of members defined by their existent shared education and knowledge. So, a chemist, who has already passed the B.Sc and M.Sc etc, would already be a member of this SET. If he had failed entrance to university, failed his exams, he wouldn't be a member of the SET.

Citizens of a country have no tests to pass to be a member of the SET. Therefore, there can't be any 'intelligence values' assigned to them.

My god, you really are dumb, aren't you?!

"Tell you something else, IQ -changes- even in individuals. It changes with diet, with exercise, with access to technology and with training."

Also age. Wonderlic gives an extra point or two to subjects based on their age. A 40 year old is, for scientific purposes, less mentally agile than a 20 year old. Don't shoot the messenger.

On a related note: scratch a "Conservative" Canadian over 40 and you'll find an outright Marxist, not to mention a mentally lacking individual, as this thread has just proven. You cats just aren't mentally sharp enough to get even the most basic of facts straight.

A median boomer born in 1955 has a life expectancy of ~27 years; that's an awful long time to propagate the decreasingly credible myths of their generation. I don't think it's gonna fly, and it's better you hear it from me.

fsafsaf,
I think you really need to establish whether you've been "laid" recently.

Otherwise, how else can a person determine whether you're rational enough to post on this thread?

That's cool, Greg. I'm the guy posting data and making rational arguments, and you're the guy telling random people on the internet they need to get laid, in lieu of a rational argument. I am comfortable with this arrangement. You've found your niche, and I have found mine.

fsafsaf

A handful of unrelated facts doesn't make an argument, it makes you the rain man.

As you love Wiki so much, look up sophistry.

Then add narcissism to your search - the official DSM4 definition that is.

K, we've got stupid, we've got mental, can we complete the Insult Trifecta?

Calling people stupid or mental on the internet is weak and cliche. Get some new material, ideally factually accurate material appropriate for adults.

"You had to pick the one country in the world which is currently developing a proto-nuclear *fusion* plant and call it lacking in energy."

I did not say they're 'lacking' energy. Just that they have it in droves like we have here. France is very advanced in nuclear technology as it was its response to the high costs and availability issues of fossil fuels.

ITER by the way is not a 'plant'; it is an experimental facility. The initial goal is to have a stable reaction that will last a few minutes (best so far is few seconds). This is a far cry from commercial use, we may be another 50 to 100 years away from that (or like someone said, fusion is the energy of the future and always will be).

fsafsaf

And you think the insults you have on offer are brilliant?

Read your own posts you bloody fool.

no, fsaf, you aren't posting data or making rational arguments. You assert that you are, but that's just specious egoism.

You haven't provided any valid data about anything.
There's no such thing as an IQ of 'nations'. Jeez, trying to correlate an artificial variable with a biological variable. Unreal.

Rushton isn't dealing with 'nations' but with 'race' and his theories have no proof because of both his weak methods and the fact that in-'race' values are extreme.

Your PPP data is insufficient as a value for national economic robustness.

You haven't made any rational argument about anything. Simply asserting that you are 'wise' and everyone else is dumb isn't an argument. By the way, you claim that "Calling people stupid or mental on the internet is weak and cliche." But you've done nothing but this!

Again, you remind me of someone who was banned; someone who was also entrapped in wikipedia, who asserted that he and he alone provided 'facts and reason'; and that he and he alone was 'rational'. [Andrew was his name, I think.]

Greenneck's focus on energy is a good variable to use in analyzing national economic strength, noting that energy is a many-valued variable.

I again applaud you for managing an entire post without calling someone a frog, Warwick, this is definite progress.

It's not me that is calling you stupid, it is the data that I present. I am demonstrably "better" than you, and am therefore entirely justified in calling you stupid when you repeatedly get the facts wrong. And subsequently insult me for providing the facts that you requested; that's low quality behavior indicative of a low quality person.

So, you are measurably stupid, and measurably of bad character. If you have any facts to add to the conversation, or can manage something besides a sixth consecutive bad argument that I will dispose of for a sixth consecutive time, let's hear it.

"What a lot of sanctimonious dribble. You honestly think the Jews would have fared any better in England and Canada in 1939 on the heels of an invasion by the dreaded Huns? You're dreamers if you think so."

History didn't play itself out this way so your assessment is hypothetical and irrelevant. People are judged on their actions, saying "you would do the same" doesn't alleviate responsibility from those who actually did it. In fact I might agree with your premise that the joo's wouldn't have faired any better in Canada in 1939; but I would like to modify it a bit. If it was today and not 1939 the joo's wouldn't fair any better in Ontario or Quebec. I wasn't around in 1939 but I'm confident that the people of central Canada were made of "sterner moral stuff" back then; but, today they would round them up and ship them to Nazi ovens with revenue from Carbon taxes. Joo's and everyone else would and will fair very well in Western Canada, we're NEVER going to put our heads in the sand in the face of evil.

To see evil and do nothing about it is the greatest evil of all. It needs to be eliminated completely at all costs, or it will just move and prey on the weak somewhere else then fester until it is on YOUR doorstep.

NO EXCUSES

The Liberal lefts mission of driving the western countries to third world equality grinds on, as we dare not ask the questions that may offend. Better to discredit unpalatable research and rely on the stuff that makes us feel good. It’s funny that as our economies falter, community’s decay and education edges ever closer to a parody of propagandized thought camps, we use the same delusional excuses that the left has hypnotized us with.
What is so wrong with exploring some of these taboo’s in society with rational science instead of excusing increased crime and social disorder with base emotion and Liberal sided sentiments of economic and environmental causes and effect?
It’s not that I support the scientific claims of earlier mentioned Philippe Rushton but where is the valid scientific arguments to disprove his work through method?
The only arguments I’m hearing in this thread are

“He's been heavily criticized by experts in the field”

Field of what and by whom? Critics in the field of genetics or the field of the politically correct left? Science should be allowed the latitude to conduct research in any field that the human mind can dream a concept.

"If it was today and not 1939 the joo's wouldn't fair any better in Ontario or Quebec...today they would round them up and ship them to Nazi ovens with revenue from Carbon taxes."

Ontario was among the very first jurisdictions on the planet to pass anti-discrimination legislation, in 1946. It is generally considered a politically correct place where discrimination in any form is verboten. What do Ontarians get in recognition for their efforts, which, on the matter of fighting prejudice, eclipse those of anyone perhaps in history? Accusations of anti-semetism. In 2008. The one province to actually elect a Jewish premier gets labelled anti-semetic. Haven't we covered this?

Ontario has a large Jewish population, and I don't see them moving out West. This is dumb Jon's usual bigotry. In his chldhood he was taught about the Eastern Beast that dwells by Lake Ontario .
"And, boys and girls, that's why we dance naked by the grain bins in the full moon...to keep them derned Ontario folks from coming near us."

“You honestly think the Jews would have fared any better in England and Canada in 1939 on the heels of an invasion by the dreaded Huns? You're dreamers if you think so”.

FACT – The Japanese were a fascists and aggressive enemy of Canada post 1941 Pearl Harbor and at the worst Japanese Canadians were interned for public safety along with the confiscation of certain personal properties.

I doubt very much that law abiding Jews would have endured worst treatment than that of our mortal enemies did, even on “the heels of an invasion by the dreaded Huns”

fasfasfas (froggy)

""""You of all people should know that a country which elects a Hungarian Jew as President cannot reasonably be described as anti-semetic""""

did U kno that hitlers maturnal granny wuz jooish, and that jews trace thier jewishness threw the maternal side

and as far as yer IQ chart goes,hahahahahaha, take an industrial eng. coarse, or one on statistical analysis

and ET has blown you out of the water on the productivity thingy , try edumacating yourself a little, just so's you won't chew both yer feet off accidently

GYM >

By god I hope that you just made a horrible attempt at sarcasm!

knight 99 - rushton has been severely criticized by biologists, psychologists, anthropologists, geneticists for his 'methods' and his conclusions.

Rushton is not a geneticist, by the way, and his variables of 'racial identity' are not based on genetic composition but on values which cannot be traced to any genetic component. That's a serious flaw if you want to assert 'racism'.

His variables are;
1) brain size. This has long ago been proven invalid as an indicator of intelligence as our species, homo sapiens, has an 'average size brain' and extinct species had a larger size!

2)Intelligence, which he evaluates by IQ scores. This is unacceptable for a group.
AND - 'cultural achievements'- an equally invalid variable because it ignores that 'cultural achievements' are directly related to economy, which is directly related to biomic capacity to support a large population. Rushton ignores whether or not the envt can support many domesticated animals and plants (in Africa, it couldn't).

3)Personality, with values such as 'aggression, caution, impulsive, sociability'. None of these are necessarily genetic; and none of these have any relation to intelligence or 'racial ability'.
They are also extremely difficult to evaluate.

4)Reproduction: with values such as sex characteristics, permissiveness, sexual diseases. Again, these are invalid as indicators of any intelligence or whatever.

5) Social Organization, such as marital stability, law abidingness, mental health - all values which have nothing to do with social or cultural 'intelligence' or 'race'.

Therefore, his variables are invalid as indicators of any identifying characteristics of 'race'. He utterly ignores the ecology, the economy, the contextual history (it might be a colonized country). His 'personality values' are nonsense.

His methodology of gathering data has been severely criticized; all he does is gather data of existent studies, and 'aggregate and round them out' hoping that such a tactic will reduce faults in the various studies.

So, Rushton has been criticized because his data sampling is methodologically unsound, his variables are invalid as measures of intelligence or ability, and his conclusions specious. you can even find this stuff on wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race,_Evolution,_and_Behavior#Failure_of_predictions

ET : When people talk about "national IQ", they are of course talking about averages. Every nation IQ will be a bell curve but the center of the curve will not be the same for every nation. That's a fact you cannot deny.

Let's imagine a 100 questions IQ test was given to all literate people in every country on earth. That test would be translated in every language and removed from any cultural references to be fair.

Then the average results would be calculated for every country. Are you saying that the average would be the same all over the world?

Like the japanese wouldn't score higher than Uganda on average?

There is a national IQ just like there is a national height. (danish are taller than japanese on average).

ET>

Thank you, this all does sound fascinating and extremely complex. I'll take some time over coming weeks to look into it (via internet) for further interest and a better laymans understanding.

"Ontario was among the very first jurisdictions on the planet to pass anti-discrimination legislation, in 1946. It is generally considered a politically correct place where discrimination in any form is verboten. What do Ontarians get in recognition for their efforts, which, on the matter of fighting prejudice, eclipse those of anyone perhaps in history? Accusations of anti-semetism. In 2008. The one province to actually elect a Jewish premier gets labelled anti-semetic. Haven't we covered this?"

If Ontario isn't anti-semetic than why did the people of Ontario give the majority of seats to a party with an anti-semetic movement? I clearly my admiration for Ontario 1939, but history doesn't dictate the present. Listen to the politicians in Ontario, there is the origin of hate towards the west. Do not respect someone who doesn't respect you. Do you deny the rhetoric coming out of Central Canada demonizing Alberta. It's like a bad remake of the South Park movie but instead the words go "Blame Alberta."

"Ontario has a large Jewish population, and I don't see them moving out West. This is dumb Jon's usual bigotry. In his chldhood he was taught about the Eastern Beast that dwells by Lake Ontario ."

People of Ontario are not a race; therefore I cannot be a bigot WRT this issue. I am judging on the actions of the aforementioned electorate. If you can show where I have made a racist comment in the past I will retract it and apologize ASAP. Regardless of your political stripes someone disagreeing with you dose not make them a bigot.

Tell me why is it that Rae isn't the leader of the Liberals today?

As long as the Liberals and Ontario continue on their current path your will see this voting block shift towards Conservative votes. No-one will support a party that panders to people who want to exterminate them. It is not unheard of for people from Ontario to move to Western Canada, I happen to be sitting next to a Joo from T.O. right now.

"And, boys and girls, that's why we dance naked by the grain bins in the full moon...to keep them derned Ontario folks from coming near us.""

I guess the difference with us and you is we don't run and cry "bigotry" when someone says something mean about us. Perhaps you should call the HRC or "Run home and cry to momma."

We are not scared of Ontario folk, actually we can't avoid you. With your CRTC pushing your weak music and TV on us, or the CBC pushing propaganda on us. I think there is a song about it that goes "Ontarians in my pocket..."

Jon>

You are right; nobody can deny that government across the board pander to the Muslims - a sworn enemy of everyone non-Muslim and the epitome of anti-Semitism.

Normally ET, I find your arguments quite rational but when you state:
"4)There's no such thing as a 'national IQ'."
I have to differ. For a defined population in which one has valid quantitative sample data on a given parameter one can compute the mean value of that parameter for the population. I've seen no dispute when people bring up GNP per capita or mean age of a population. These measures have the same validity as a national IQ and also the same limitations. Rather than questioning the standard error in some of the national IQ estimates (which would be crucial to know before one started making comparisons) people have instead questioned the validity of "national IQ". Mathematically "national IQ" is valid. One can question sample sizes used in esimation of national IQ, sampling adquacy and between group variations but not the validity of the measure itself. Mathematically it is perfectly valid to compute the mean area of the left great toenail for every country in the world. Properly done, one could compute toenail size among populations and races. It is perfectly valid to question why someone would want to do this.

In the table given by fsafsaf France is above the USA even though both have mean IQs of 98. If one looks at the white population of the US only, then the mean IQ is 101.25 (assuming 85 as mean black IQ and 0.2 as black proportion of population). I suspect if one compared the means of France and the US there would be no statistically significant difference as the SD for both is likely large.

IQ is roughly a measure of wetware processing speed and there are genetic differences in IQ. Like all biologic phenomena, IQ and race relationships are very messy but I have no doubt that the work of Rushton is valid. We have some tantalizing hints about how to raise IQ when one looks at the genetics of the Ashkenazi Jewish population. The mean IQ in this group is 112-120 (depending on who you believe) and Ashkenazi Jews also have a high proportion of genetic diseases such as Tay-Sachs and Gaucher's disease. People with Gaucher's disease are more intelligent than average and it appears that this is because of increased synaptic growth in their brains compared to lower IQ individuals. This suggests ways in which people could have their IQ increased and IMHO it would be far more productive in spending money currently devoted to counterproductive affirmative action programs in researching IQ enhancement techniques. In only a fraction of the money that has been spent on foreign aid to Africa (where it will never do any good given the low IQ's there) was spent on this type of research one might finally be able to turn African societies from their primitive state to something resembling western industrial societies.

For those of you, who like me, may have a lower IQ, take heart.

Many of the highest intellect fail to do anything of any real value due to lack of enthusiasm.

If Dion became leader of the Liberal party in part due to a high IQ, then I*ll side with a Mr. average like Ralphie Klein any day. = TG

"For those of you, who like me, may have a lower IQ"

Okay, people, for cryin' out loud, sit up straight and pay attention!! This could very well be the first time someone has said this in the history of the internet!
Tony, BTW, I don't believe you.

"Perhaps you should call the HRC or "Run home and cry to momma."
You are aware, of course, that the Alberta Human Rights commission is located in Alberta? Yeah, that's the Albertan commission that jumped to attention for a muslim group and went after Ezra Levant? You are aware of this?
Run, Ignorant Jonny, get your gun, there's an Easterner sneakin' around the granary!

BTW, a respectful addendum to the above comment. Ignorant Jonny keeps saying "we" as if he's speaking for westerners. I find this doubtful, since the ones i met while living there weren't like him in the least, and none of my comments are meant to be applied to them.

Loki- and AQS - there is no such thing as a national IQ.

A nation is a political entity not a biological system. That means it is an OPEN set; its membership is not closed but open by birth and or immigration.

You can take an average IQ of a CLOSED set, which you close in time and space, eg, The IQ of This Particular Class of Graduating Students. You cannot take an IQ, which is an individual measurement, of an OPEN set.

There is no such thing as a national IQ of anything less or more than 100. That's because IQ measurement is individual, and the 'nation' is OPEN!! You cannot have a nation whose members are in the 75, 65 range as suggested in the table; the nation would be unable to function!

There is no such thing as race; we are one and the same species. Rushton's variables are pure blather and not indicative of intelligence.

The Ashkenazi are not an Open but CLOSED set; that's why their diseases are genetic. A closed set is not the same as a nation. Furthermore, the Ashkenazi place great emphasis on education and studying - and no interest in physical skills etc.

You are completely and totally wrong - about Africa; its members have the same IQs as we all do. Remember, no group can function if its members have IQs, as an average, below 100. What you don't understand is that their technologies are non-industrial because the African biome did not permit the domestication of plants and animals. This kept the populations low, and meant that there was no need for technological advances.

The West moved into technological advances because the Western biome is the richest on the planet and enabled massive population increases, which required new technology to sustain them.

So- I totally disagree with your view. I reject national IQs as biologically invalid, and reject Rushton's views as biologically invalid.

ET>

"Remember, no group can function if its members have IQs, as an average, below 100"

I would argue that point a little.
Semantics with the word “function” which needs to be clarified if you consider what functioning is involved within African societies for example.

Wechsler, David. Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale-Third edition

Average IQ = 90 –109
Low Average = 80 – 89
Borderline = 70 –79
Extremely low = 69 or below

The term Extremely Low is used in place of the terms Mentally Retarded, used in the WAIS-R, and Intellectually Deficient, used in the WISC-III to avoid the implication that a very low IQ score is sufficient evidence by itself for the classification of "mental retardation" or "intellectually deficient."

Even with the earlier claimed low average of 85 (on this thread) African indigenous populations one would think the functioning capabilities of a nation within Africa would be met and not necessarily need the functioning capabilities of a modern complex society.

The ability to function would be facilitated even more so with some resources of higher intelligence influencing that community either from within or outsourced from the broader world.

ET>

Questioning #2

“their technologies are non-industrial because the African biome did not permit the domestication of plants and animals.”

I’m not certain what you mean here? Much of Africa today is a highly developed in Agriculture and domesticated farm animals. The soil is extremely fertile in Zimbabwe and South Africa for example where they make some really good wine………..
*Africa produces more than 60 metal and mineral products and is a major producer of several of the world’s most important minerals and metals including Gold, PGE’s, Diamonds, Uranium, Manganese, Chromium, Nickel, Bauxite and Cobalt. It is interesting to note that Africa's contribution to the world's major metals (copper, lead and zinc) is less than 7%. As a result silver production is low (less than 3% of the world's production) due to the fact that most silver is produced as a by product of lead - zinc and copper mining. Although underexplored, Africa hosts about 30% of the planet's mineral reserves, including 40% of gold, 60% cobalt and 90% of the world's PGM reserves - making it a truly strategic producer of these precious metals.
Source: http://www.mbendi.co.za/indy/ming/af/p0005.htm

knight 99 - you obviously have no knowledge of the economic nature of an 'African society'. Or of our species homo sapiens.

We are all one species and our cognitive abilities are the same. There is absolutely no empirical foundation for those 'national scores' as outlined above. Got that? No empirical foundation.

Second, to function in a Hunting and Gathering society, for example, you have to have an indepth knowledge of all animals and plants in the area - which are nutritious, which are poisonous, which can be hunted, how to hunt and so on. It's quite complex; it's not simple. The Economic system is NOT simple. The kinship system is also NOT simple - in fact, in most cases, far more complex than ours. The language, of the religion - can be both quite complex, etc.

NO society is 'simple. NO society can operate with a below 100 average IQ. No members of our species operate, as an open group, with a below 100 average IQ. There is no such thing as a 'national IQ'.

It is a fact that YOU, as an individual, do not know the full knowledge base of our society. Therefore, you, as an individual, cannot claim the technological expertise to run our society in all its nature - ie, medical, computer, electrical, physics, biology etc etc.

You couldn't do it in a less technologically advanced economy either, eg, in a hunting and gathering society. Or a pastoral economy. Or a horticultural economy. All three exist in pre-industrial Africa.

And no- these peoples DID NOT need 'advice' from some 'higher people' nearby. You really don't know a thing about our species, or about Africa.

I'd suggest some books - but - I doubt if you'd read them. Try, T. Ingold, or R. Lee, 'Man the Hunter'.

It's quite astonishing, in our day and age, to read that people still think in the old 19th century colonial mode of 'those primitive peoples'. Incredible. Despite all our knowledge, despite moving from the armchair pontificating and moving out into the field and actually examining these different economies, some people still think in the 19th c way.

Again, Africa didn't advance technologically because its biome or ecology didn't enable large populations - because of the limited number of plants and animals that could be domesticated. That's the key; the economies remained 'no-growth' or unable to support larger populations and therefore, did not require changes and advances in technology.

ET>

Ok thanks for the perspective.

One thing to mention is that you seem judge and presume a little to harshly.

“but - I doubt if you'd read them. Try, T. Ingold, or R. Lee, 'Man the Hunter'.”

My interests are broad, and unlike most of the posters on this thread I have lived and worked in Africa and around the world for more than half my adult life, including all continents but the Antarctic. I do have a legitimate “hands on” view of the world and a perspective of reality.

The concept of national IQ on this thread touched a curiosity I was not savvy to; it neither makes me uneducated or naïve.

“these peoples DID NOT need 'advice' from some 'higher people' nearby. You really don't know a thing about our species, or about Africa”

My comment also referred to within the community, meaning people on the higher end of the before mentioned bell curve.

That’s good; I’ll do a little research……….

knight 99 - the advanced technologies of domesticated non-native grains and animals (horse, domesticated cows etc) were brought to Africa by Europeans, who developed them in Europe.

In pre-industrial Africa, these plants and animals did not exist. Therefore, the people there lived in 'no-growth' economies that did not increase their populations beyond the carrying capacity of a subsistence horticulture or hunting/gathering.

The mineral extraction etc, is now possible because these industrial technologies have been brought from the West. On their own, without the introduction of domesticated plants and animals, which permitted an increased food supply, Africa wouldn't have industrialized. It required those plants and animals.

Similar to N. America - which didn't have domesticated animals - and horses, cattle, sheep etc all had to be brought from Europe. Same with the grains - eg, modern wheat, corn. The Iroquois and Huron had wild rice and maize.

It's fascinating to find out how our planet's different ecological areas helped or prevented human societies from progress. It was only the West, in Europe, that had the richest biome on the planet - a thick rich soil, regular water from rainfall, ie, no need to dig wells or irrigate fields, a reasonably temperate climate enabling several harvest per year. That's the reason for the Rise of the West...and the animal species that developed there and could be domesticated: cows, horses, sheep, etc etc..

Modern Africa is now enmeshed in sectarian fights, tribalism and Islamic fascism - none of which helps.

Ahh, yes, I'd agree; every society has a Bell curve IQ, with people on the higher end helping the whole. eg, people who can figure out physics, chemistry, math, computers and etc, in our own society!

ET >

"I'd agree; every society has a Bell curve IQ, with people on the higher end helping the whole. eg, people who can figure out physics, chemistry, math, computers and etc, in our own society!"

My thoughts precisely!

ET says "You cannot have a nation whose members are in the 75, 65 range as suggested in the table; the nation would be unable to function!" and we are supposed to think that the African nations that purportedly have those IQ levels are functioning properly. As someone who has lived in one of those African countries and worked with those African individuals, I can personally attest to the fact that they do not function like the countries with the higher IQs reported.

Now I do not believe that the IQs are as low as reported, but I do believe that there is a difference and the statistics quoted do support that. And I do not believe that the difference between an IQ of 98 or an IQ of 97 is functionally significant. All the moreso when you include the concept of Emotional Intelligence. A high IQ gives you an advantage when it comes to ability to function, but there is way more to succeeding as an individual or as a society than just the IQ.

ET I'm sorry to say that you are wrong and you are allowing your prejudices to show here. By the way, I don't have enough information to agree with fsa... either so don't talk down to me from your heights of pomposity and call me a Lieberal or frogg or something like that. This post is added to take people like you down from the lofty heights of pompous academia, out from the cloister of the Internet and books and up and out of your mothers basement and into the real world where you see that there are differences and those differences do create huge problems for developing countries. Diamond's thesis is a very interesting generalization on why technology developed in certain areas. But I didn't see any links in his books to IQ. As I say, there are more than one contributing factors to low development, and we do ourselves and the people of Africa a disservice to ignore IQ as one possible factor just because it is politically incorrect to explore the issue.

Why have Korea and Viet Nam and PRC and Taiwan all experienced huge growths in GDP and reduction in poverty while the African countries have not? It is very possible that IQ had something to do with that. I think that one of the things that we should do is follow up on, because I do believe in equal opportunity and I would like to see poverty eliminated and societies advancing economically and socially. If we keep on doing what we're doing now in Africa and expect a different result, then maybe we should be reassessing our IQs - or define ourselves as being insane.

And Knight 99, I have done the research and I have lived in the countries. You are right. ET is wrong. As far as I can see, at best his (or her) argument merely explains why the IQs in Africa are lower.

But he or she can sure write and indignant and pompous post meant to stifle debate and discussion. What a bully! What a pitty for the pursuit of real solutions.

ET says "You cannot have a nation whose members are in the 75, 65 range as suggested in the table; the nation would be unable to function!" and we are supposed to think that the African nations that purportedly have those IQ levels are functioning properly. As someone who has lived in one of those African countries and worked with those African individuals, I can personally attest to the fact that they do not function like the countries with the higher IQs reported.

Now I do not believe that the IQs are as low as reported, but I do believe that there is a difference and the statistics quoted do support that. And I do not believe that the difference between an IQ of 98 or an IQ of 97 is functionally significant. All the moreso when you include the concept of Emotional Intelligence. A high IQ gives you an advantage when it comes to ability to function, but there is way more to succeeding as an individual or as a society than just the IQ.

ET I'm sorry to say that you are wrong and you are allowing your prejudices to show here. By the way, I don't have enough information to agree with fsa... either so don't talk down to me from your heights of pomposity and call me a Lieberal or frogg or something like that. This post is added to take people like you down from the lofty heights of pompous academia, out from the cloister of the Internet and books and up and out of your mothers basement and into the real world where you see that there are differences and those differences do create huge problems for developing countries. Diamond's thesis is a very interesting generalization on why technology developed in certain areas. But I didn't see any links in his books to IQ. As I say, there are more than one contributing factors to low development, and we do ourselves and the people of Africa a disservice to ignore IQ as one possible factor just because it is politically incorrect to explore the issue.

Why have Korea and Viet Nam and PRC and Taiwan all experienced huge growths in GDP and reduction in poverty while the African countries have not? It is very possible that IQ had something to do with that. I think that one of the things that we should do is follow up on, because I do believe in equal opportunity and I would like to see poverty eliminated and societies advancing economically and socially. If we keep on doing what we're doing now in Africa and expect a different result, then maybe we should be reassessing our IQs - or define ourselves as being insane.

And Knight 99, I have done the research and I have lived in the countries. You are right. ET is wrong. As far as I can see, at best his (or her) argument merely explains why the IQs in Africa are lower.

But he or she can sure write an indignant and pompous post meant to stifle debate and discussion. What a bully! What a pitty for the pursuit of real solutions.

ET is an affirmative action hire. Therefore it is logical that she is against the entirely reasonable idea of applying IQ to races, genders, and countries, because her entire career, and pension, are based on the false assumption that women are as smart as men.

They are not, it isn't even close, and this false assumption is killing our economy, not to mention our schools and political narrative.

Additionally, women are measurably and significantly less honest than men, making their participation in conversations about abstract ideas quite unpalatable in comparison to their male counterparts.

In short, it is not surprising in the least that a female academic with a massive financial interest in gainsaying the very concept of IQ is here mucking up a thread with her bolshevist nonsense of equality. Just as I predicted at the beginning of this thread.

What does a flamewar about national IQ have to do with Anne Frank? You all owe Kate an apology.

And fsafsa or dfasfas or whatever Sock Puppet you use, Kate was not happy with your participation when you posted under the name of Andrew...why are you back again? Although amusing, you are only tolerable in very small measures.

If you have any factual information to add to the conversation Eeyore you are invited to post it. fsafasf has posted a lot of sourced information which I find bolsters the credibility of his argument significantly. fsafasf can't help it if outright Marxist trolls troll him or her for posting factually accurate info. I think we need more posters like fsafasf, and fewer posters like ET.

Occam narriwly postulates:
"Thanks for the update, WLM. I will revise my false notions about the basis of the cotton economy of the South. I will also stop referring to all those Africans who came over to N.A. on opulent cruise vessels as "cargo". Clearly they were wealthy, carefree tourists, enjoying their luxurious cubic metre of space to the utmost."

Yes and nearly all those slaves were kidnapped and sold into the trade by Islamic slavers...who still run a healthy salve trade today......140 years after western liberal democracy abolished it.

Pretty much all cultures have had a crack at slavery as am economic mainstay but no culture beats Islam for having slavery entrenched in the culture and ratified by its religious dogma.

Being purposefully ignorant of larger truths does not validate your argument.

I KNEW that was a former banned poster... just couldn't think of who. It all makes sense, though, Eeyore... the grand overstating of his own abilities, the hatred of those who don't agree lock step with his ideals, and the love of such rascist bunk as the national IQ.

Of course it's Andrew. The clincher was the ranting against an opponent's sex. Man, I should be ashamed of myself for not figuring it out earlier.

Oh, and of course! The use of the sock puppet to further the argument. Love it. Scaring up supporters the only way he knows how: Inventing them.

Yukon Gold, eh? How many sock puppets does ET have? Which magically appear when she is losing an argument and getting exposed as a Marxist FRAUD?

I doubt you've ever been within 1000km radius of Yukon, poseur.

That makes three now,it's not too bad talking to yourself,it's when you start answering yourself, you should get some help andy anne,you are walking a fine line.