Totally off topic, but not really:

Everyone, take a look at the google map for Israel. No cities, no roads. I guess the Iranians have succeeded.

Israel has ceased to exist.

When is this absurdity and creeping idiocy going to end?

Where are the raging grannies, the male hating lesbian brigades, the Status of Women Bureaucrats ??

The world wonders why they don't weep for their muslim sisters.

Where ??

"Where are the raging grannies, the male hating lesbian brigades, the Status of Women Bureaucrats ??"

They are hiding in under their desks. They don't want to get their asses shot off or rather their heads hacked off.

Very brave when calling conservatives Neanderthals, but when faced real Neanderthals, it's a different story.

Kevlar for firemen eh? That indicates to me that things have got worse in England than the worst ever seen in large American cities.

I'll add that even if the "youths" attacking the firemen are Muslim, you can't blame Islam. Islamic or not, the "youths" won't be doing squat if they get their heads busted and tossed in the slammer to cool off for five years, per attack.

That would of course put the blame squarely on Nanny. Maybe Britain needs a damn good famine too, eh?

Kristopher, if you had rockets, mortar and artillery shells randomly landing in your 'hood, you'd probably take steps to prevent the enemy gunners from getting accurate targetting coordinates, right?

Israel's lack of detail on Google is similar to the situation with the island of Crete (Greece's largest island, in the eastern Med).  When I was there last spring I noticed that all the maps were, uhm, decidedly casual about details and accuracy — and don't even get me started about the available GPS info...

The reason for all this?  Chania, a charming and beautiful city on the northwestern edge of the island, is home to a large NATO base, possibly the largest NATO staging facility in the region.  The military's kinda twitchy about anyone getting really high-quality info on their installations (though you can get some interesting stuff on Google Maps).  Oh yeah, do not whip your camera out for a quick picture at the airport (which shares landing facilities with a part of the airbase).  Great way to get yourself surrounded in short order by nervous-looking officers with automatic weapons...

I can vouch for the firemen story. When I lived in London our local firehall was ambushed twice by youths chanting Osama, Osama as they pelted the firemen with stones. They a case of molotov cocktails with them too but didn't get a chance to use them.

The result was that the firehall authorities decided that any call to these council estates (yes the youths live in homes paid for by the taxpayer) would have to be attended by two fire crews. The only downside was that this left the rest of the borough without a fire service.

Of course the sensible solution was that the estate should have been told they would get no fire service, and that if the attacks persisted they would be evicted from their government accommodations.

But modern England isn't interested in making much sense.

C'mon guys/gals. Don't blame the youths. They are only trying to accomplish what they left back home,or learned from Daddy....i.e. turn England into a wasteland capable of producing nothing! So of course they attack the people trying to stop them from their goal. /sarc off for all the leftards. I say don't send two fire crews out,send one,backed up by the SAS!

Ah, Britain.

I feel enormously constrained about the consideration of vigilantism. However, outrages committed by the Muslim community grow tiresome... and I am an American, and therefore, of course, a barbarian...

I will simply say that the role of the urban guerilla is to carry out the successful mission and stay alive in order to make further advances...

When that crap(not if)starts here in Canada, my new past-time will be to follow fire crews, and provide whatever assistance is necessary.

I may be old, but this dog can still hunt!

...28 days might become true. The only difference is the virus was two legged Euro-latties.

I would suggest any call to these council states be ignored and left to burn to the ground

Send the Archbutthead of Dhimmerbury out to fight the fires. Give the "youths" a sympathetic target.

Another Spengler fan....

First rule of fire fighting - make sure everyone is safe, second rule, make sure the firefighters are safe. Once a fire brigade has attended to the first the second should kick in and they should drive off.

One question though - are there no police in England?

A man fighting a fire in a building is risking his life, if on top of this someone is trowing stones or doing something to make the situation even more dangerous then I call this attempted murder.
A fireman could get knocked out by a stone, fall into the fire and smoke and die.

What those "youths" are doing is attempted murder.

I say shoot them on sight if they try anything.

I sound crazy and radical now, but just give it an other 20 or 30 years and then the situation will be so bad, they will have no choice but to shoot at the "youths".

It is only getting worse.

Show me one place where the more the Muslim population grows, the less trouble there is.

There is none!

I know perfectly well not all Muslims are like that but in every place where there are more and more Muslims,
there is more and more trouble,
from Muslim groups demanding Sharia,
Violent protests for cartoons,
fathers killing their own daughters for refusing to cover their hair,
"youths" attacking both firemen and policemen,
all the way to terrorist activity.

If nothing changes and I mean a big change, expect more Muslim related violence in the coming decades.

Western civilization is in trouble.

And with the left doing everything to keep us from defending it,
western civilization is in even more serious trouble.

Sometimes I feel like even Mark Steyn is too mild in his predictions.

It is going to get very ugly.

It may take 20 or 50 years or more who knows, but it is coming, it will get very ugly... unless something really big happens.

But what?

send in a crew of leftys-only lead by the likes of TJ (tally-ban jack) or SD (silly de-yawn)

Jack and Dion (where have I heard that before....?) would be happy to do it.

They think that there is no Muslim extremest.

They grew up believing we may be different on the outside but we are all the same on the inside.

Some people have no idea that there is so much hate in the world. At least, why would someone hate me?

My son's names are Matthew and Josh. reason enough to get me killed in parts of the world.

Where's Charles Martel when you need him!

GROUP HUG!! all these youths need is a great big multi-culti Eurohug!
We know for sure on this side of the pond if anyone attacked our firemen they'd be dead.

The ghetto-ization of euroland appears to be fast approaching.
When the youth populace gets their kicks from bashing the life-support service providers doing their 911 thing then you know the situation has reached critical mass.
A lot of these people are first or second generation refugee campers so I don't imagine they will be put out too much with their new 'altered' digs.
Perhaps their leaders(the ones really pulling the strings)encourage this in their foot soldiers as it is easier to manipulate the mindless when they think they are owed as opposed to controlling the contented; who are obviously busy doing more constructive things.

I ll bite.

"Where are the raging grannies, the male hating lesbian brigades, the Status of Women Bureaucrats ??"

Running support groups, womens groups and whatnots. Yes they really are out there. No, I know thats not what you want to hear. Ask anyone of these groups what they think about it and you'll be surprised how much they have to say about it. And how much they do about it. Unfortunately, it wont support your rhetoric games.

"C'mon guys/gals. Don't blame the youths. They are only trying to accomplish what they left back home,or learned from Daddy"

There you go - it must be the immigrants who do it. Closer scrutiny shows that its just gang violence that takes place in virtually every region of the island. One of the examples cited in the reports is of an area that only has churches listed as places of worship. Doubt that would suit your preconcieved notions.

Chip,

Which area of London did you live in? I m having a hard time finding anything about the incident you listed. And I m in London.

"There is none!"

Heres the funny thing. People/Statisticians/Researchers arent interested in things that dont happen. They are in things that do. Nobody could generate the list you wanted, because a quiet area doesnt normally merit attention, regardless of its religious makeup. Doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Well, lets just cut thru the crap shall we? Kate isnt concerned about UK firefighters. Nor is she concerned about Muslim women. She couldnt give a damn about either. If the firefighters union came out and said it didnt think muslims were involved, she would turn on them and accuse them of being politically correct in the nanny state. Probably because they know both sides of the story and it doesnt suit her version.

But when theres an opportunity to pile crap on Islam, the calm gentle soul that we know as Kate, who gets some kind of perverse thrill from killing animals apparently (and I say perverse because a young and presumably innocent child rarely feels any joy at killing animals), then Kate will be the first to line up and do it. You say liberals foam at the mouth, but foaming at the mouth with a relatively calmer expression doesnt make you much better.

This isnt about helping the victims. It is about using them to prove a point and reinforce ones own prejudices. I wonder how the firefighters would feel if they knew how she was using their plight to denigrate some of their own muslim colleagues ( Yes they do exist.

And I ll throw in one last bit. Islam has to reform. Desperately. Its antiquated, bigoted, fascist etc etc. But you jokers engaging in this kind of idiotic rhetoric are only alienating those within the ranks who could act as catalysts for change. Whats the point of turning your own kind against you by calling for reform, when you know that the other groups - smalldeadanimals chief amongst them - will continue to go out of their way to push some kind of fearmongering agenda.

Grow the f^%% up. Some maturity. Anyone.

Sput, you could very well be right in what you say. I have many preconceived notions of Islam formed by observing a thousand years of history. It comes down to this: I don't want them as neighbours. I don't want to share my country with them. I don't want my children to grow up as aliens in there own country. Its not like I can emigrate to Saudi Arabia/Iraq/Iran/ anywhere is Africa, open a business, go to church and live like a civilized human. Given that, I really don't know why we should pretend to want these people here. If I wanted to live in a third world dump, I would emigrate to one. Its a better solution to fulfill that wish than to make one here. That way my fellow citizens wouldn't have third world dump foisted on them.

Yo, sput. I will grow the f$%^ up. when islamowhackjobs stop strapping dynamite to their children, when they stop using mentally handicapped women as homicide bombs, when they stop stoning women to death for having a coffee with a man, when they stop forcing women to have their clitorises removed, when they stop men from marrying their 12 yr old cousins thru forced marriage. Make that happen sput, and I will amend my thinking.

BTW, being the father to 3 girls, and the brother of a down's person, those above mentioned activities offend me greatly........not you?

I dont have much sympathy for muslims on the basis of what I know about Islam.

I do however have plenty of sympathy for them as individual human beings.

The caricatures here are one-size-fits-all. Indeed, kingstonlad, you try to apply it to me.

" those above mentioned activities offend me greatly........not you?"

Of course it offends me, but that does not stop me from noticing that you are trying to tar me as guilty by association for daring to defend them. The defence is not on the basis that muslims have great teachings etc etc. It is on the basis of accepting that each individual amongst them has his or her own context, his or her own beliefs, and his or her own aspirations.

On the one hand, they are being surpressed by people within their own community. On the other hand, they are being villified by people outside their community.

Take for instance, the words of minuteman, who I suspect is putting forth views held by a number of you here. He sees muslims as muslims. Not as individuals, some of whom had the misfortune of being born into islam.

" I don't want to share my country with them"

You will notice that he has turned it into an us v/s them argument. "They" are a collective enemy. Forget that amongst them (the "they" so to speak), there are individuals who see what we see - who want what we want, who can tell that all is not well with Islam.

When they keep getting lumped with the people they disagree with, some of whom are their blood relatives, by the people whose values they share, is it any wonder that they are reluctant to stand up and reform. Its a lose-lose situation. You get disowned by your community for challenging it. And the wonderful folk on this board will still call you "they" and "them". How can you challenge anything when it will only result in exclusion from both groups.

minuteman misses the point completely, which is that lots of people immigrate from those countries because they want to get out of there. Yes there will be loudmouths who will spurt jihadi nonsense and prove you right. But for every one of them,there are dozens who just want to live in the freedom and security that this country, and not their origin, affords them.

You know, my favorite pseudo intellectual often posits that leftism is driven by emotion, and the right by reason.

Who is being emotional here and who is being reasonable?

Is it really that hard to not engage in muslim bashing? If I was a muslim, regardless of how reform minded I was, people on this board would put me on the defensive with their sweeping generalizations. That does not bode well for the future. You cant accuse moderates of not doing anything when you yourself stomp them down every time they rise up.

Its like you ve made up your minds on how things have to unfold, and you ll be damned if they unfold in a way better than you expected.

Sput,
"You cant accuse moderates of not doing anything when you yourself stomp them down every time they rise up."
Got any examples of that? Got any examples of moderates rising up and westerners stomping them?

"which is that lots of people immigrate from those countries because they want to get out of there. Yes there will be loudmouths who will spurt jihadi nonsense and prove you right. But for every one of them,there are dozens who just want to live in the freedom and security that this country, and not their origin, affords them."
Any proof of that? The loudmouths had no problem getting 100,000 muslims to march over the cartoons in London.
The mosques with these nutbar imans seem to be full. If it's just a few loudmouths, why do there seem to be so many of them and if there are tons of moderates, why can't we hear them?
The MSM knock themselves out looking for moderates, but they seem to be pretty thin on the ground.
Perhaps you should lose your pre-conceived notions and look at the actual situation.
So let's hear some examples of muslim moderates rising up and us stomping on them.
Perhaps the problem is the definition of moderate, what is you definition of a moderate muslim? Is it one who waits until his daughter is 13 instead of 12 before she is forced into a marriage with a cousin?
Break it down for us and give us your examples, and if you can't find any, be man enough to alter your views accordingly.

sput. I agree that not all Muslims are bad, just as not all Christians are good(being an athiest, the whole religion thing kind of baffles me anyway). But, as long as crazies, using children, are killing Canadian soldiers, the extremists will be my enemy, and I shall treat them as such.

"I'll bite"

Yes, of course you will. You're either a Muslim, or an apologist wanker.

"And I ll throw in one last bit. Islam has to reform. Desperately. Its antiquated, bigoted, fascist etc etc. But you jokers engaging in this kind of idiotic rhetoric are only alienating those within the ranks who could act as catalysts for change."

Who within the ranks are you talking about? What percentage?

I support Muslims against Shariah and various other honest and rational reformers, but they don't amount to much as a percentage of the worldwide ummah. As well, they are considered heretics.

For the record, I'm against the ideology. A cult that first victimizes the faithful, especially women. A cult that makes Scientology look like a good, loving religion.

Why do you think non-Muslims have to support "catalysts for change?" Reform, redemption, intelligence, decency, women's rights and human rights in the Muslim world is not our problem. It is their problem.

Islam is not something you are physically born with, such as the colour of your skin. It is an idea. Ideas can be rejected by the world and especially its adherents, regardless of the inherent violent threats.

It is time that all non-Muslims, and we are legion, knew exactly what is in the Quran, aHadith and Sira. It is time we knew exactly what they are teaching their children. It is time we understood the purpose of a Mosque.

It is time we ripped the 'religious' veil off of Islam and saw it for what it is - a foundationally violent political ideology with a pedophile, rapist, mass murdering brigand as its founder and so-called 'prophet.'

Islam and everything it stands for is offensive to me. And it should be to every rational, non-Muslim soul on the planet.

It is not acceptable, just as Naziism is not acceptable. Perhaps more so. Because Islam is historically responsible for hundreds of millions of murders, and more carnage and destruction than any other vile idea ever introduced to the world.

Sput, having grown up in Calgary and visiting from time to time, areas that I used to requent have become "ghettos" for immigrants, primarily from the middle east. I'm not so olde as to not remember what it was like growing up. When my daughter gets knocked to the ground so a male, certainly not a gentleman, can board a bus ahead of her, then there is a problem and it is rampant. Remember, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck then it's probably a fu&*ing duck!!!

If this religion of peace(?) is such, then why aren't more of its flock not speaking up about the baby "boomers", the stonings, the forced female mutilation and killing of ones own daughter because she won't cover up? Sputter, by calling all who post here bigots and racists is no less bigotted than what you accuse us of.

Kate has simply run a post/link up the flag pole to see which way the wind is blowing. That hardly makes her a racist or bigot. If she were then I'm sure that all sympathetic leftist comments would be censored leaving only room for the "bigots, racists, knuckle draggers and neanderthals"

The "ghettoization" of Canada has started and we had better stand on guard for thee. I'm sure that most of the conservative posters would agree that immigrants are welcome here but that they best FIFO, FIT IN or F&*K OFF.

As far as Kate using a firearm, she grew up on a farm. They shoot pests and predators to protect their livestock. It's a way of life in the country and until you get to know her personally, I think it best you shut the f&*k up rather than lumping her in with rest of the scum you've met in your life.

Damn, I took the troll bait!

Sput said,

On the other hand, they are being villified by people outside their community.

By throwing stones at firemen, by plotting the assassination of the Danish cartoonist ( as they were caught doing this week ) by a father in Canada choking his daughter to death for her refusing to cover her hair, by refusing to carry blind people with their dogs in their taxi cab, by doing all sorts of vile things, they vilify themselves.

We are only reacting to the facts, this is not imaginary, this is real,
we are only reacting to those real vile things,
we are not vilifying them, they vilify themselves fine without our help.

Simply reporting in the news in the most neutral way one can possibly do that they used two women with Down syndrome to kill dozens of innocents exposes how vile they are.

Even the most politically correct description of what they do still exposes how vile they are.

The vilifying is all their own.

Grow up and face reality.

"Got any examples of that?"

Yeah I know a peer who recently retired from political office who told me that was what "asian" youngsters said to him when he told them to rally. One of the the things he quoted was "they still see us as muslims and anti-Brtish."

I will not name him for obvious reasons (namely that I dont have his permission to), but he is a recently retired peer. Should be able to find him in recent news.

"Any proof of that? The loudmouths had no problem getting 100,000 muslims to march over the cartoons in London."

Well for starters there was the original administration board of the now infamous Finsbury Park Mosque. I dont know where you got 100,000 from - sounds terribly exaggerated, but even then they are but a fraction of the muslims in the country. AND they were peacefully protesting somethign they didnt like - perfectly normal, I think. Whats the big issue here? That they managed to mobilize? Or that by virtue of protesting, they are automatically terrorists?

"The mosques with these nutbar imans seem to be full."

Dual discourse - one in Arab for the militants, one in English for the non-Arab speakers, a number of whom are moderates. The largest mosque here only holds about 2 or 3 thousand. I think the onus is on you to prove that all the hardline mosques are full.

Part of the hardlining of mosque problems is the fact that many of these hardliners came as political refugees and they ve now managed to oust the local leadership - finsbury is the classic case.

"The MSM knock themselves out looking for moderates, but they seem to be pretty thin on the ground"

The Quiet revolution, the moral majority of the US etc - it was difficult to pinpoint the supporters of these groups on the ground, but they existed didnt they. Moderate led revolutions generally happen quietely through the sidelining of people who are too radical in their views. Its just how it works. If only those people who showed up for pro-life rallies voted along those lines, then nobody would get elected ona pro-life agenda. Get it?

"Is it one who waits until his daughter is 13 instead of 12 before she is forced into a marriage with a cousin?"

Well done. Talk about reasonable, not emotional, discourse.

Moderates are people who are not inclined towards hardline ideologies and work to reform the movement if it goes astray. The moderates would be those folks who hold on to their faith, but shed out of date notions. Their faith is their problem. Their extremism becomes ours. History has shown that the enemy within is the most potent enemy. The moderates are better equipped to take on extremists than you or I.

Lord Carey, Archbishop of Canterbury from 1991 to 2002 commenting on the supposedly benign impact of sharia law on other religions when it has been introduced.

"In Pakistan, that country's blasphemy law has been used to persecute Christians. In Nigeria, where sharia has been introduced in certain northern states, community tension, church burning and widespread violence have been the result. I remember a young Roman Catholic priest, Father Linus, telling me how despite the insistence of the governor of Zamfara state that sharia would have no effect on the Christian community, the opposite had been the case. Christians no longer had any freedom, he said. They could not broadcast on radio or television, they could not build churches and women felt under pressure to assume the veil.

The watchword for any dialogue, worth its name, between Muslim and Christian communities must insist on reciprocity - that rights guaranteed to all in the West should be granted to minorities in Muslim lands. We have yet to see real steps toward that form of equality."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/10/nsharia610.xml

Sput: Wherever Muslims have a plurality, they are fundamenatlist. Period. It's as much a fact as the sun rising every morning. There is not one example on this earth where Muslims freely choose a state of being that respects basic human rights. Even Turkey needs the military stick to keep it in line. Like I said, you are completely dead wrong because there is no historic or current example to prove your point.

I like what Wafa Sultan says: "Radical Islam is a construct of the West ... in Muslim countries there are no radicals ... just Islam"

Your viewpoint is typically "progressive"; it's nice and honest and fair ... but naive.

And no, it's not about individual people, it's about their religion ... just like Nazism, fascism, and militarism weren't about individual Germans, Japanese, or Italians during WW2. But, Islam is more dangerous because there are way more Mulsims than there were fascists and they transcend borders. They behave when they are a minority; once they form even an enclave ... which they do in every country they immigrate to in large enough numbers ... then they cease to be moderate ... moderate meaning respectful of basic human rights.

You'd think that reading the endless news pieces about Islam from the EU, Thailand, Phillipines, India, Kenya, etc., would inform you of this fact.

just like Nazism, fascism, and militarism weren't about individual Germans, Japanese, or Italians during WW2. But, it's more dangerous because there are way more of them.

Yes more of them and unlike German Nazis, they are not thousands of miles away but they are living in our country which makes it far more serious.

Can anyone imagine millions of German Nazis immigrating to North-America in the 1940s?

This is a different problem, a bigger problem because they are with us in the belly of our ship causing mutiny and threatening to sink the ship...

What really angers me is the leftards or Liberals and the socialist parties in Europe have driven womens rights back forty years in the name of fucking tolerance. The leftard females that support the above have walked hand in hand with Backwater Islamic Men to negate our right to equality. These same filthy disgusting females have the nerve to slur those that speak out against the brutality and horror Muslim Women live with daily in the name of Leftard tolerance.

Leftard females spend their time lamenting the "Glass Ceiling" while women in Canada are prisioners in their own homes, do they care? NO, you see it's not tolerant to speak out against enslaving women in the name of Allah. So women and children suffer untold horrors, because women are disposable by the left. We can have our rights tossed aside in the name of tolerance, how utterly absurb these idiots are. For the sake of all women globally we need to tell the liberal left to STFU, because women are dying because they A: the left don't care or B: Would rather be tolerant of a culture that hates women, and it's okay because the left are tolerant. Islam as a religion hates women, there is no denying it.

I disagree. I hope that there are moderates working form the inside to reform. But non-Muslims Canadians do have every right to criticize Islam. In fact, every Canadian has the right to challenge or criticize any religion or group (within legal limits). Pressure from both inside and outsiders to spur reform may be more effective. The trick is to make sure that moderates and attempts at reform are positively acknowledged.

Personally I would find it difficult to have any sympathy for punks that throw rocks at firemen, no matter what trials and tribulations they had been through. The phrase "pissing into the well" comes to mind.

But then I'm not a Lefty like Sput.

Once upon a time the emergency room at LA County Hospital had a problem with gang members bringing their "issues" with them into the waiting room. After a few shooting incidents it was made known to the bangers that if any of their homies shot the place up, NONE of their gang would get any medical treatment at any LA emergency room.

There were no further problems from gangs.

As I said before, the blame rests squarely on the authorities. In this case the solution is probably a general walkout by fire and police. A month of utter anarchy might be just the thing for PC council members and the Labour Party in general.

Like Kate's famine idea, but with cricket bats.

Lynn: "Reform" in this case means completely rewriting the story of Muhammad and rejecting 80% of Muhammad's life example.

Good luck.

Another point: Christian "reformers" did not have to rewrite anything, they simply went back to the texts that were ... they used what was already there and has been since the NT was composed. I'm an agnostic, but I've studied Christianity in depth and the whole idea of reform in Islam is impossible in the Christian reform sense ... Islam must be completely transformed; that is it's basic texts must be re-written and that means rejecting the written life of Muhammad ... a violent, cruel, hyper-chauvinistic, mentally ill, Rasputin type figure.

Gotta disagree Paul2. In fact it doesn't matter a damn if Islam is reformed or if they all go right over the cliff into total insanity. Religions are made of -individuals-. If you take each rowdy individual and smack his head every single time he transgresses, pretty soon he will stop transgressing.

Obviously this cannot be accomplished by a police force, because there's never a cop around when people transgress. The whole community enforces the rules, the cops are supposed to be BACK UP for citizens, for after-action clean up and heavy weapons support. This was Sir Robert Peel's idea, and it has worked brilliantly since 1822.

But we don't have that anymore. What we have is a situation in which ONLY the police may confront transgressors. So pretty much they don't get confronted, become bold and take the place over.

Nothing to do with religion at all.

Sput answers:
"Got any examples of that?"

Yeah I know a peer who recently retired from political office who told me that was what "asian" youngsters said to him when he told them to rally. One of the the things he quoted was "they still see us as muslims and anti-Brtish."

Ahhhh, so you know a guy who knows a guy....
Try again.

"AND they were peacefully protesting somethign they didnt like - perfectly normal, I think. Whats the big issue here? That they managed to mobilize? Or that by virtue of protesting, they are automatically terrorists?"
Are you insane? Maybe we have to check your definition of peaceful as well. Does 'Bomb Bomb Denmark' strike you as peaceful?
Go have a look at muslim rage boy during the London protests.

"The Quiet revolution, the moral majority of the US etc - it was difficult to pinpoint the supporters of these groups on the ground, but they existed didnt they. Moderate led revolutions generally happen quietely through the sidelining of people who are too radical in their views."
So you are saying there is no evidence of them, but you know they exist in large numbers.
What was that you were saying about emotional arguments?

"Moderates are people who are not inclined towards hardline ideologies and work to reform the movement if it goes astray."
Got any evidence of these moderates other than knowing a guy who knows a guy whose brother once talked to a guy?
I worked in a muslim country for several years, the local guys looked at us like we were crazy when we told them you could go to jail for beating your wife. Not many moderates there I'm afraid. And that wasn't even in the mideast where the real hardliners are.
Or do you consider wife beaters moderate?

"Moderate" = Embraces Western Values for Human Rights ... and that includes rights for females.

Now Sput ... try again.

Toilet Bowls + History = Just a Memory, a Smell and a stain.

Paul2, Mr. Sput is still struggling with the cognitive dissonance of calling you a racist for pointing out Muslims treating their women badly. Logic loop, brain melting... [sput, spark]

all they want and need are

an increase in their social assistance