Good evening, ladies & gentlemen, welcome to SDA Late Nite Radio. Tonight for your delectation we have the inimitable Mr. Leon Redbone performing three tunes for y'all: Sweet Sue, and When You Wish Upon A Star, and I Ain't Got Nobody. The last tune is classic Redbone, if you know Leon and you're in a hurry fast forward to 05:30. If your new to his work, you want to watch the first tune first.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKZBgahnG_w

Mmmmm...Obama Girl

http://www.maximonline.com/todays_girl/index_magnified.aspx?id=2277&src=dx1

Dancin' on Daddy's Shoes is my favorite Redbone. 90% of the time he's in my 10% range.

Commons to investigate Baird for political interference:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/story.html?id=35bab4e2-9a0a-4ebf-a95c-2c9afd42b254&k=87155

My favourite is Shine on Harvest Moon, Len, but the only version available on-line ~ www.youtube.com/watch?v=yki0xD7VSlo ~ is a bit poorly produced, so I didn't want to recommend that first.

Vit:

Shine on Harvest Moon is a keeper, occasionally good things come from Toronto!

Cheers

Midnight At The Oasis

* Warning – Sultry woman singing about putting camels to bed.

"My take: If the machines were that hackable by savvy IT workers, Ron “the new Linux” Paul would be doing a lot better."

from Hack The Vote: Democrats mysteriously stop whining about voting machines

This "Obama Girl" thing brings up a point to ponder.

I seem to recall that, a few years ago, a pollster was musing on UK, Canadian and US election results and why they often mismatch polling.

Part of the reason, he noted, was that older people were far more likely to actually cast their vote than younger people were.

"All talk but no action at the polls," I believe he was quoted as saying.

It will be interesting to see if younger Americans stir themselves beyond their rhetoric to follow it up at the voting booth in good numbers.

Otherwise, the codgers will do all the significant voting and it'll be a McCain-Clinton duel.

"Commons to investigate Baird for political interference:"

So, we've got the so-called Ethics Committee, with their highly compromised Chairman, Paul Szabo (CBCGate, starring Krista Erikson and co.) investigating an errant $300,000, according to the Librano$, in the Schreiber/Mulroney boondoggle and now John Baird supposedly under investigation for "political interference"--and yet, the Librano$, under Chretien and Martin, stole $40,000,000 from the Canadian public with few consequences--and the Canadian public is still out the $40,000,000.

What gives...

I can't think of a time or an issue, with Chretien, Martin, and co. when there wasn't political interference of one kind or another.

It looks as though being the Opposition these days means harrassing the duly elected government of Canada rather than helping to govern the country: another reason not to vote Librano. Not only do they not know how to effectively govern a country, their only mode as the official Opposition is obfuscation, drive-by smears, and collusion with the state-funded CBC.

I'm hoping for an election. I'm tired of the Librano$' scumbag politics of total disrespect for and disregard of our Parliamentary democracy.

Liberal Citoyen Dion=deftless+deaf+Dithers=Defeat.
TO Red Star.
...-

"... Dion's moves must now be deft if he's to avoid adding yet another D: Defeat."
http://tinyurl.com/2cn5zf

Connie Fournier exposes more of Lucy Pieman's playmayes

http://tinyurl.com/2a5oao

"
By (Almost) Any Means Necessary
By Connie Fournier on February 6, 2008 2:10 AM

On July 6, 2005, Richard Warman gave a speech for a group called "Anti-Racist Action" in Toronto. The speech was entitled, "Maximum Disruption: Stopping Neo-Nazis by (almost) any means necessary".
(...)
Anti-Racist Action is an international organization formed in 1988 to " fight fascism, racism, sexism and homophobia". They have protested mainstream groups like Focus on the Family (where they were arrested for disorderly conduct in September 2006), and, although their official site says, ARA has never advocated violence as a solution to hate, they like to use the phrase "by any means necessary" when they are rallying their troops.

They also sell buttons with slogans such as "Riot Don't Diet" and "The Only Good Fascist is a Dead One" in their ARA Store.
(...)
Bob MacDonald of the Toronto Sun wrote the following on February 5, 1995: "Now we've come to the sorry point in Metro Toronto where a so-called anti-racist gang goes on the prowl armed with knives, iron pipes and machetes - looking for 'neo-Nazis' to attack". Sadly, the three people who were stabbed and slashed in a subway attack were not even 'neo-Nazis', they were "just some guys on their way home from a party". MacDonald goes on to write, "Metro Police Det. Wayne King, in charge of the investigation, said the ARA gang was out "trolling, looking for trouble". ""

Some "Ethics" Committee when the Liberal Chair is highly suspect as having knowledge of the collusion between CBC and at least one of his fellow Liberals on the Committee. Never mind this Dude, Pablum Rodriguez, was parachuted into a seat to pose the questions which had nothing to do with their mandate.

Rather amusing column in today's Ottawa Citizen Editorials by Bob Robertson, "Finally, the chef speaks". It about sums up this witch hunt.

At the same time as they're skewering Mulroney, Jean Chretien with his friends Jean Pelletier and Alfonso Gagliano are trying to have Gomery's report quashed on grounds of apprehension of bias.
How about them apples folks? How about we demand they find the millions they tossed to the wind first, Chretien should be concerned about that.

Of course, maybe not, Chretien has already dealt with that, he said what's a few million to have unity or someting like dat dere. It's always money well spent in the province of "je mes souviens".

Sadly the fickle electorate in much of the country don't seem to remember much about Liberal corruption, it's quite interested in something a Conservative PM did 25 years ago with less than 300,000 dollars, which did not come from taxpayers.

Osama Girl may be hot, but she's a bimbo with an empty head.

Hey, lberia, that means that you are a typical white male chauvinist pig, you like your women beautiful and DUMB.

LOL!

David Suzuki doing his bit to keep the country's loggers busy.
"No one knows how many forests have been felled to print all the stories that have been published about David Suzuki"
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=291604

Ibn Warraq
Why the West Is Best
My response to Tariq Ramadan

"Can we look forward, someday, to a Life of Mo?"

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_snd-west.html

no comment.......

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080207/sask_reserve_080207/20080207?hub=Canada

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3321637.ece

A 37-year-old American businesswoman and married mother of three is seeking justice after she was thrown in jail by Saudi Arabia's religious police for sitting with a male colleague at a Starbucks coffee shop in Riyadh.

The religious police took her mobile phone, pushed her into a cab and drove her to Malaz prison in Riyadh. She was interrogated, strip-searched and forced to sign and fingerprint a series of confessions pleading guilty to her “crime”.

“They took me into a filthy bathroom, full of water and dirt. They made me take off my clothes and squat and they threw my clothes in this slush and made me put them back on,” she said. Eventually she was taken before a judge.

"Taking down the thought police is just the warm up."
Its going to be very difficult to change the CBC from its ingrained leftist culture.

Skewed leftist documentaries have been their M O as long as I can recall, not to mention the talking heads.

The Keith Martin motion M-466 tie in with white supremisists is a prime recent example.

What it will take to change that culture is nothing less than privatizing the monster and let the marketplace settle their acceptance for their leftist diatribe.

The sooner the better for the country insofar as socialist indotrination goes.

Socialist Jokers: Red Ken & Citoyen Dion.
...-

Ken Livingstone faces controversy over joke about Muslims
{...]
Journalist Alex Needham asked him [Red Ken]: "Can you tell us a joke?" ... Yasser ...
http://tinyurl.com/3e4g8u (london)

Stephane Dion was asked to tell a joke on a Quebec Talk show. He responded thus: "SD: Have you heard of Bam the dog? Show host: "No." SD: ... sleep."
http://themaplethree.blogspot.com/2007/01/bam-dog-stephane-dions-dark-sense-of.html
You like dat?

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/02/07/khadr-bio.html

they dont like the luxury but they dont mind your money. meanwhile Mama Khadr and the black bag ladies live at the trough along with their lawyers .

CBCpravda All Khadr , All the Time.

(Via CSP) Bill Roggio, Pakistan's Interior Minister orders negotiations with Baitullah Mehsud

The Pakistani government and the Taliban appear close to signing the next round of "peace" accords to end the fighting in the tribal areas and the settled districts of the Northwest Frontier Province. Pakistan's Interior Minister stated a deal can be made with Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud, while Baitullah announces a cease-fire in northwestern Pakistan.

Interior Minister Hamid Nawaz has ordered the formation of a peace jirga, or committee, in order to conduct official talks with the Taliban and Baitullah...

Keith Martin will not withdraw his motion.

"Martin, MP for Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca, said it's a freedom of speech issue.

"I'm not going to remove it," said Martin. "The motion is there, I introduced it, and it's going to stay there. It's an important debate.""

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=91e424b3-d03b-496a-bdee-891cd26f9c05

Daniel Pipes, How to Turn Gaza Over to Egypt

"Listen to me carefully," President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt instructed an interviewer on Jan. 30. "Gaza is not part of Egypt, nor will it ever be …. I hear talk of a proposal to turn the Strip into an extension of the Sinai peninsula, of offloading responsibility for it onto Egypt" but Mubarak dismissed this as "nothing but a dream."

Hardly a dream. It's a reality that surfaced since January 23, when Hamas operatives breached large segments of the wall separating Gaza from Egypt. That unexpected step alerted the world that an Egyptian embargo, no less than an Israeli one, prevents Gazans from leaving their territory or trading with the outside world...

Actually, the HRC and the CBC are two sides of a coin - control of the minds of Canadians. The HRC oversees what you may not think, feel and say; the CBC provides you with what you may think, feel and say.

Does Dion want an election? Or is his only method of showing that he is The Opposition Leader, is to threaten the government with an election? I can't figure him out.

Surely he knows that the Afghanistan mission, a UN operation, isn't an election issue. Most Canadians are satisfied with it being 'ratified as moral/legal' because of its link with the (corrupt)UN. And, Canadians are gradually moving out of the sophomoric idea of being 'peace-keepers', a term painted into irrelevance.

The environment and AGW is also not a major issue, since the dire predictions of the AGW cultists aren't appearing and since the Kyotoists are now coming clean in stating that the real agenda is for the West to industrialize India and China. Nothing to do with pollution or emissions.

Both of the above, Afghanistan and 'global warming' now known as 'climate change', are still relevant. The CBC and other MSM keep the facts out of sight. But, they aren't major issues since hard reality sometimes filters through our massive Canadian propaganda apparatus.

The budget? I doubt it.

What are the issues that would require an election?

Why does he want an election? Certainly, the MSM pundits want one; since they are all Liberal/NDP, they can't handle the Natural Governing Party not being in power and, therefore, their own lack of power. Is it the MSM?

Is it the NDP? The seats that the NDP is slowly eating up?
Is it Ignatieff and Rae?

WLMK..you got that right Pontiac!

The ARA was amongst the most vicious, empty headed, doltish thugs i have ever run across.

Never mistake the fact that just because they are on the left, they will not resort to tactics that would make Franco blush..

It is ironic that they employ tactics that not even the 'fascists' they purport to hate, would use..

The red left has always been violent, from the first days of the revolution, to the street brawls in Munich and elsewhere in Germany, to the streets of Toronto in the late 80's and early 90's.

Google Cecil street Marxists for a taste of their zeal..

Terry Glavin recruits William Butler Yeats to the fight:

"The Second Coming"

Mark
Ottawa

I agree with LizJ about Bob Robertson's column being very funny today -- it is a spoof of the Mulroney-Schreiber "ethics" investigation. It about sums up my feelings on this whole affair: http://tinyurl.com/2x4ceb . I think that between this and the frivolous Baird investigation, a number of Liberal Parliamentarians really risk losing public respect. To me they simply do not seem to be taking their Parliamentary responsibilities seriously -- I can't believe that the Government Operations and Estimates committee has nothing more useful to investigate.

The Ethics Committee is itself suspect of breaching basic rules of ethical conduct.

Paul Szabo, its chair, admits to meeting with Schreiber. Robert Thibault, one of its acolytes, admits to meeting with Schreiber, both in jail and after his December release.
The Chair permitted a non-member, Rodriguez, to ask questions of Mulroney that were unrelated to the mandate of the Committee.
For the sake of $300,000 of non-taxpayer money? Private money?

As for Chretien and his gang and the Liberal Party, they owe the Canadian taxpayer over 40 million dollars. Money that they took to pay for re-election in Quebec. Why isn't the Ethics Committee investigating this? And the fact that the Liberal Party slithers out of repayment?

Meanwhile, Chretien, dogged as ever, is going after Gomery, to try to clear his name. The facts remain. Forty million dollars of our money was transfered to private companies in Quebec, to pay for Liberal election expenses. Not for 'unity' as Chretien claims. But for his own Power.

Warning for Stephan Dion and the Liberal Party of Canada:

Choose very carefully between tripping up PM Harper for political gain and crippling world security through the consequences of taking pressure off Taliban power bases in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

A recent video in the news clearly shows how Madrassah in Warziristan, Northern Pakistan are Taliban training camps for terrorist combat tactics using children as young as eleven years
old.

http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1507/article_detail.asp

One can only imagine the damage to the Liberal Party if news coverage shows the Taliban killing teachers and children and blowing up Afghanistan schools. Schools being the one real hope for young people to understand and avoid joining in terrorism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,,2253152,00.html

Canadians can hardly be expected to vote Liberal if they see ongoing destruction of everything our troops and their families invested their lives in for Afghanistan being destroyed on the evening news. = TG

Warning for Stephan Dion and the Liberal Party of Canada:

Choose very carefully between tripping up PM Harper for political gain and crippling world security through the consequences of taking pressure off Taliban power bases in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

A recent video in the news clearly shows how Madrassah in Warziristan, Northern Pakistan are Taliban training camps for terrorist combat tactics using children as young as eleven years
old.

http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1507/article_detail.asp

One can only imagine the damage to the Liberal Party if news coverage shows the Taliban killing teachers and children and blowing up Afghanistan schools. Schools being the one real hope for young people to understand and avoid joining in terrorism.

guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,,2253152,00.html

Canadians can hardly be expected to vote Liberal if they see ongoing destruction of everything our troops and their families invested their lives in for Afghanistan being destroyed on the evening news. = TG

*
"cal2 says... CBCpravda All Khadr , All the Time."

funny... the ceeb forgot to mention the part where jean chretien intervened
to get the late papa khadr sprung from a pakistani prison.

they're gonna be so embarrassed when they realise their, uh... error.

*

And for a giggle...And a bit of reality...

http://www.theodoresworld.net/archives/2008/01/post_24.html

better put some tranquilizers in the water, I cant figure how the high hormone levels got into this group of people.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/02/07/schools-report.html

sure will be great once they separate the afrocentrics to a safe haven.

Just a bit of fun:

How to create the perfect paper aeroplane

One more reason why the Church of England is now only the second largest denomination in England:

Archbishop of Canterbury calls for Sharia law in the UK

The Archbishop of Canterbury has called for the UK to adopt Sharia law for Muslims.

Dr Rowan Williams suggested today that it “seems unavoidable” that elements of Islamic law be accepted into the British legal system...

More on "moderate Muslims":

Bruce Thornton, What's in a word?

...Muslims who want to integrate their faith with liberal democracy, pluralism, human rights, and economic development exist and deserve our support. But I challenge anyone other than scholars to name one of their spokesmen. The moderates surveyed by Joshua Muravchik and Charles Szrom in their recent Commentary article — Kamran Bokhari, Said Edin Ibrahim, Amr Hamzawy, or Abdel-Aziz el-Sherif — have a negligible influence with the Muslim masses compared to that of bin Laden or the Muslim Brotherhood or the mullahs of Iran. And these moderates are just as marginalized in the West, where instead the duplicitous Tariq Ramadan is promoted and celebrated as a “moderate” despite his adherence to the radical doctrines of the Muslim Brotherhood. If large numbers of Muslim moderates existed, and if such moderation were typical of most Muslims, then wouldn’t these spokesmen have a higher profile and a greater constituency among their co-religionists?

If you missed it, the article by Muravchik and Szrom is available here.

How about we make this judge stand in front of the door when the police are forced to knock and wait for an answer? The police could stand behind the judge and if the answer they get is a bullet, the judge can eat it.

Maybe these lunatic judges would re-define a criminal's rights.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/02/06/bc-rebuke.html

And you wonder why people hate f-ing lawyers...

Charles MacDonald,

Good insights as usual.

I suspect the fanatics like bin Laden and the Brotherhood have Saudi wealth and bomb-blast [free] editorial mention to keep them in the news.

Moderates, on the other hand are low key and tend not to demonstrate and so are almost ignored by the MSM.

If Muslim moderates could afford to rent the GoodYear blimp and display a message of peace, that would certainly help because the *Fundamentalists* would likely bomb it.

Campaign ideas for moderates. = TG

Actually, charles macdonald, I think that the above comment by Thornton has a lot of empirical and logical holes in it.

He asserts that moderates have a 'negligible influence with the Muslim masses' but provides no empirical data base.

He asserts that Bin Laden and the Muslim Brotherhood and Iranian mullahs have more influence, but provides no empirical data base.

He informs us that moderates, ie, non-extremists, are 'marginalized in the West' but provides no data base.

Further into his post, he informs us that communism failed because it "grew out of modern superstitions like 'materialism, atheism and scientism'. Wow. I'm not sure what he means by scientism but if he means a belief in the scientific method - that's not a superstition. Neither is materialism; neither is atheism. Furthermore, his outline of the emergence and imposition of communism is factually and analytically false.

His outline of Islam is that familiar, and I consider, erroneous focus on The Texts, which ignores historical and current context as causal of Islamic fascism and considers it to be a direct result of The Texts.

He then considers only the 'Blowback' theory for Islamic fascism, which is equally erroneous in my view, which considers that it's merely a reaction to 'American/Western imperialism' in the ME. No.

There's a third, far more empirically and logically grounded reason for Islamic fascism. I've outlined it before and won't again; a dysfunctional political and economic structure in the ME - tribalism.
And, the emergence of Islam was due to contextual reasons as well, a reaction of a pastoral nomadic economy to Byzantine settlements of their land base.

Islamic fascism in the ME is due to that dysfunctional tribalism which refuses power to the people.

Islamic fascism in the West, however, is due to multicultural decontextualization, where peoples are ghettoized and their ideologies are not subject to tempering from local contextual realities of other people, the economy, etc. The ideologies then becomem Purist. That's dangerous, for an ideology must always be locked to reality, economic reality, and not only to the imagination.

By the way, are you another name for Irwin Daisy? The two of you seem twinned with each other.

The people supporting baby Khadr are making ridiculous arguments - whether or not he actually threw a grenade. Who cares - he was involved in an attack, he is old enough to be considered a soldier - so he is at least a POW who will not be released until cessation of hostilities - IOW never. The CBC, Avi Lewis and Justin Trudeau need another poster boy badly; siding with a sociopath at war with Canada is really bad optics.

Oh, lberia, nice article about Holland trying to dredge up Ottawa Mayoralty race nonsense. If he is so sure of himself, as article points out, perhaps he'd like to make his accusations outside privilege of Parliament.

BTW, Holland could also comment on allegations, to which Speaker of HofC has yet to rule after almost a year, that he removed, without authority, personal files packaged for delivery.

Holland is a hypocrite who dredges up non scandals when he is possibly involved in extremely unethical conduct as detailed above.

What a laugh; this bunch has no chance of getting power back anytime soon, and they can bluff and bluster about defeating Tories over this or that, but they haven't got the testicular fortitude, or money, or policies, or leader, to actually do it.

But, I hope they do go for it anyway, though I doubt they actually will pull the plug.

Archbishop of Canterbury converts to Islam:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23436203-details/Adoption+of+Islamic+Sharia+law+in+Britain+is+'unavoidable'%2C+says+Archbishop+of+Canterbury/article.do

"Controversial: Dr Rowan Williams believes the introduction of Sharia law to Britain will help maintain social cohesion
The Archbishop of Canterbury has today said that the adoption of Islamic Sharia law in the UK is "unavoidable" and that it would help maintain social cohesion.

Rowan Williams told BBC Radio 4's World At One that the UK has to "face up to the fact" that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system."

Aside from kicking him out of the church, I'd support hanging him for treason!

maz2, Charles MacDonald ... ET?
maz2: Thanks for link to Ibn Warraq responding to Tariq Ramadan, putative "moderate muslim" hero. I recently ordered this book which contains basically translations of what he says in Arabic -- the secret to uncovering these Fifth Columnists upon whom desperate Western appeasers are relying for peace and tranquility.

Brother Tariq: The Doublespeak of Tariq Ramadan

I first became intriqued with this Islamosmoothie when I received a e-mail from a old friend who is a born-again Christian and who is desperately worried about Caliphate Islam. He was certainly fooled!
Ramadan is the grandson of Hassan al Bana, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood.

All your religions belong to us.

An Islamic group based in the UK has issued a death fatwa against a playwright whose London stage production depicts Jesus Christ as a homosexual.
Terrence McNally was sentenced to death by the Shari'ah Court of the UK as his play, Corpus Christi, opened in London on Thursday night.

The play depicts Jesus Christ and his followers as a group of homosexuals. He is seduced by Judas Iscariot, but is later crucified as "king of the queers". It caused an outcry among Christians when it was staged during the Edinburgh Fringe festival during the summer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/493436.stm

"The largest Ukrainian "diaspora" in the world outside Eastern Europe resides in Canada."

Ukraine has come a long way

Super Tuesday also arrived in Eastern Europe on Feb. 5 at 11.15 a.m. Eastern Standard Time when gigantic Ukraine was invited to the World Trade Organization. This is geopolitically significant, and brings Ukraine's 46 million people into the Western fold and the rule of law. ...-
http://tinyurl.com/29vjfv (FP)

RIP: Obituary.

Danylo Shumuk, 89, rights activist, "the eternal prisoner".
"He emigrated to Canada on May 23, 1987, when he was reunited with his nephew, Ivan Shumuk of Vernon, British Columbia, whose decade-old effort to free his uncle and bring him to Canada finally succeeded. He lived in Vancouver and in Toronto and continued to be outspoken about human and national rights causes."
http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2004/270413.shtml

ET, RE: your 12:11

I often wade through your interesting empirical data bases and sometimes wince at how you find holes in others' conclusions.

Very sharp, however where are your suggestions?

All that detailed background must give you useful answers.

How do moderate Muslims gain a higher profile voice? I suggested the GoodYear blimp.

What are the more worthy and effective answers, really? = TG

Spot the socialist engineering theory in the quote below... Any surprise that this comes from academia?
----------------
But Professor Grace-Edward Galabuzi of Ryerson University says a curriculum that assumes sameness, or colour blindness, does not necessarily lead to equality.

He says society sometimes has to do things differently for some groups to ensure equitable outcomes.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/02/07/4832661-cp.html

The New York Times is having a contest to compose a six word motto for the United States of America. While I believe the eight words on our currency, Liberty, E pluribus unum, and In God We Trust do a pretty good job of describing America, I submitted "Balancing godliness, freedom, initiative; contributors welcome."

I hereby challenge the SDA community to compose a six-word motto for Canada.

This is curious -- though I am not sure how useful it is. Google now has an election map which includes spontaneous comments from people around the globe (esp. U.S., of course). I gather Romney has just dropped out: http://tinyurl.com/3caoag

Oh yes the meddling busybodies want equitable outcomes alright! OttRob......

BTW - Our media friends have been working overtime on the piece of poo story about Lisa Klassen who was speeding on a known dangerous bit of road and managed to put her car upside down in the Red River.
They've got it all figured out... the evil SUV did it! Poor Lisa can't conveniently remember a thing.

But the twits apparently don't understand that the electronics on the car record what happened with speed throttle and brake systems the police can prove it was her own fault.

I want to see the report on the black box.

TG - I think the moderate voices of Muslims are going to come more from actions than from rhetoric. Not everyone 'acts' through words; most people..just act.

So, in their daily life, moderate Muslims will, more and more, work with other people. In the ME, the key driving factor will be economic. The tactic of breaking down Islamic fascism in the ME, is economic networking. And open talk about the need for more rights for the people, more talk against harsh punishments etc. We do the talking. Not them. And we and they establish the economic networks.

The ME can't last as a one-industry town, so to speak. They have to move out of that one resource, oil, which is 'owned' by one tribal elite with revenues redistributed to the powerless others...and into a diverse market economy.

The UAE, eg Dubai, are already recognize this; they are modoernizing their economy; they realize they have to educate their people to participate in that economy. The people will move into pluralism, democracy and global interaction by their economic actions. There's no need to talk about it.

Yes, there are Islamic scholars who are immersed in the 'talk', who are claiming that The Texts can be interpreted to sustain modernity and democracy. That's very helpful as a counter to the fascists. But, the greatest counter to fascism is an open economy networked to democratic states.

The danger of Islamic fascism is not so much in the ME, which is moving out of tribalism and into a civic mode..slowly, slowly..but inexorably. The danger at the moment is the isolate thug-groups in the multicultural West.

Just as we have thug-groups here engaged in touting anti-poverty, socialism, communism etc, but who are, psychologically, just thugs - there are the same in Muslim societies.

But the danger in these groups is that the Islamic ideology is isolated from reality, from having to moderate its agenda faced with the hard facts of economic reality and local laws, and local plurality and local democracy.

Multiculturalism isolates immigrant groups into mini-states! Their ideology becomes supreme in these mini-states - unaffected by contact with the local economy, local laws, local people.

It then moves into a Pure Ideology. Pure words. Pure text. Totally unaffected by contact with opposition, debate, other people. That's what multiculturalism and political correctness does.
These ideologies, as Pure, become emotional havens for, not merely the thugs, but the people who aren't assimilated into the local city and economy. They become the Ideals - and the West has to stop these Isolate Havens, because they breed cults.

The other important voice, however, is that of women. It is disgusting that the western feminists are showing their 'true colours' by their lack of support for Islamic women. However, more and more Islamic women are rejecting the tribal mode of life (patriarchy, sharia law, etc). Again, these will emerge more in the form of action than in words. Actions..are first.

Fascist Friday, February 8th:

7pm Main Lecture NAKBA AND THE RIGHT OF RETURN
Ryerson University Library building @ 350 Victoria St Room #: LIB 72

Featuring
- Ward Churchill, of the "Little Eichmann's"
Former Professor in Ethnic Studies at University of Colorado at Boulder, author of A Little Matter of Genocide, Fantasies of the Master Race, From a Native Son, and many more.

- Mohammad Ali Khalidi, featuring "Kill the apes and pigs"
A Palestinian Professor of Philosophy at York University. He has wrote and lectured on Palestinian refugees in Lebanon and the right of return.

- Nagi Farah, featuring, "Drive them into the sea"
Palestinian Refugee and survivor of 1948 Nakba
includes PHOTOSHOPPED VISUAL DISPLAY

----------------

ET,

"By the way, are you another name for Irwin Daisy? The two of you seem twinned with each other."

Are you becoming paranoid? Starting to imagine that I'm secretly writing other peoples posts? Is it upsetting that nobody shares your irrational point of view that Islamofascism has nothing to do with the Quran, Hadith, Sira and Mohammad? Is it irritating that you can't find one shred of evidence to prove your theory and disprove that the texts and teaching of the texts was and is Islam? Finding it difficult to find others to corroborate your theory, especially Muslims?

This is seriously strange behaviour.

You need to read the blog Gates of Vienna and search their info on a European Group of leftists that call themselves Antifascist Action and many variations of that moniker... they are Violent, Criminal and pernicious with chapters across the Continent and into Russia even.
The advocate violence and are responsible for attacks on public figures including politicians.
They are active fifth columnists and quizlings in European events and may be responsible for spreading propaganda through disinformation efforts.
LGF's Charles Johnson quite likely was duped by their efforts in this regard.

Not surprisingly the Left Loving Media are ignoring them and their activities. So are socialist Governments.
Search Results on AFA
Know Your Enemy!

Boob Rae, unelected, unaccountable to Parliament, Mo Strong's nephew, speaks to the Muslim Taliban crime bill:
"Liberal foreign affairs critic Bob Rae said the crime bill was "not a contentious matter."

Where is Citoyen Dion?
Liberals: soft on Taliban; soft on crime.

Conservatives "to introduce confidence motion on crime bill"
http://tinyurl.com/2ml2m6 (ctv)
...-

No, ET, Irwin Daisy and I are not twins, clones, or otherwise connected.

It is disingenuous to suggest that a very brief blog posting can provide all material evidence that you request. Just as it would be disingenuous of me to insist that you adduce reams of scholarly research to prove his assertions wrong. Let's start with something quick and dirty. Can you name a moderate Muslim leader who has demonstrable influence in the Islamic community and who is not marginalised in the West? Opinion poll evidence and content analysis of the MSM would suffice for now.

I have never agreed that the texts alone adequately explain Islamofascism. Islam has varied in its extremism through time, between sects and from area to area despite the Trilogy remaining essentially constant.

Your point regarding tribalism is well taken. Are you are looking forward to the publication of Philip Carl Salzman, Culture and Conflict in the Middle East (reviewed here by Daniel Pipes) on 19 February? Or have you had an advance look?

Thanks, TG.

MND, I look forward to looking at the Tariq Ramadan book when time allows.

irwin daisy. Stop it right there. Don't move into personal attacks. Stick to the issues.

I disagree with your focus on Texts as causal of belief and behaviour. So do others. OK? Focusing on texts or objects or oral tales as causal of belief/behaviour is also called 'symbolic causality'. In anthropology and sociology, it was a dominant paradigm in the 1930-70s. It was heavily critiqued as inadequate to explain how those texts/articulated beliefs emerged within a collective - and were accepted by the collective - in the first place.

Your focus on the Hero as agential in creating an ideology (Hero, Great Man, Founder, etc) is another aspect of your analysis. You focus on Islam as created by one individual, and ignore the historical context of the belief system, ignore why it was accepted in the first place, why it remained within the collective. This focus on the Agential Hero is also, I suggest, another error in your analysis. It reduces a complex historical phase to one agential cause: The Hero.

I don't agree that my view that Islamic fascism is irrational; it's based on a thorough empirical and rational understanding of demographics, economic modes and political modes. You don't work in those areas of analysis. I do. There is a great deal of analysis of societies using these three aspects, and I don't need to validate my analysis by listing them.

You disagree that population size, growth and migration are relevant to socioeconomic and political behaviour. Fine - you consider that the only causal factor is their written ideology.

You disagree that biomic reality, ecological attributes and economic mode are relevant factors in defining socioeconomic and political behaviour. Fine - that's your decision.

You disagree that there are different types of political structure, and that these differences are directly connected to population size, which is linked to economic mode. Fine - that's your decision.

The fact remains, you know nothing of these areas of research - and for you to tell me that they are irrational or without a shred of proof, is arrogant.

As I've said before, we'll have to 'agree to disagree'. You can stick to your Texts as causal of all behaviour. I reject that; I look to the economic and political systems and population pressures.

If the liberals expect an election to be based on one issue only they are very wrong.
PMSH statement last time re the Senate will be proven right.
There will be at least 3 issues, The Crime Bill,
Afghan, leadership, and the budget.
Holy Cow, Dion just got mad in question period.

charles macdonald - as I said, the moderate movement in the Muslim world is emerging via actions, not words. Ideological words, in my view, always come AFTER the actions.

Just as, in the Reformation phase, the market economy, civic mode of governance and individual thought emerged before the philosophical analysis of this mode of behaviour.

No, I can't name either a radical or a moderate Islamist. The reason is that my mind doesn't work with names. I always used to tell my students at the beginning of term, that they were not to be upset if I couldn't remember their names or faces. I just don't have that ability.

Your insistence that I come up with a name from the MSM doesn't correlate with someone who has influence in the Muslim community. The MSM might provide us constantly with names of, for example, Islamic extremists, but, they might not have great influence in the Islamic community.

I'm focusing on the actions, not the rhetoric, and my point is that the actions of a modern industrial economy linked to global economic networks will marginalize Islamic extremism - because Islamic extremism can't operate an industrial economy. And, the population base of the ME is too large for a non-industrial economy. It's as basic as that. Three factors: population, economic mode, political mode. Nothing to do with the texts - which are made by man and can be changed by man.

Iggy is reading his questions from a piece of paper, who wrote them.

The issue isn't how the texts were derived.
Frankly, at this juncture, this is of mere academic -- in the pejorative sense -- interest.
It matters not one whit. Who cares!

What matters is the vangard of Caliphate Islam (a gentler, but still accurate term) and what motivates them, which is Islam, pure and evil and textual. What motivates them to be motivated by the pure texts is a perception that decline in the Muslim world is due to the displeasure of Allah due to a moving away from Islam -- being tained by Western influence.

Charles MacDonald asks the money question!
Can you name a moderate Muslim leader who has demonstrable influence in the Islamic community and who is not marginalised in the West?

This is what I've tried to argue on earlier threads. Moderate muslims -- who tend to be Western academics, both sincere and taqiyya practitioners -- have no traction.
As I've pointed out before, ET lacks "street smarts" on this issue and lives too much in her head.

I suspect that if ET were in the Pentagon she would have favoured the firing of Coughlin -- who thankfully has been re-hired. That she'd be a sucker for Muslim outreach.

charles macdonald - thanks for the link to Philip Salzman. His book and its analysis seems excellent; that's exactly the nature of tribalism.

Tribalism is a well-known mode of socioeconomic and political organization; it's been well-studied by many anthropologists, and its functions of enabling a small to medium size population to operate in competitive land bases is well-known - as well as its focus on stability and therefore, inability to adapt. As I've long argued on this blog, it's the key factor explaining the ME 'mind'.

me no dhimmi - could you explain what 'street smarts' means in this instance? It doesn't make any sense to me.

I disagree that the origin of an ideology is irrelevant. I think understanding the economic and political causes explains a good deal of the ideology, and helps to explain how it can be changed.

The 'moving away from Islam', ie, the notion of a Pure Islam is a fascist theme, and one has to examine - politically and economically - why a fascist theme has emerged in Islam. See Lawrence Wright's analysis of the emergence of Al Qaeda for this.
My explanation for this emergence is that a tribal political and economic infrastructure is dysfunctional within the exploding population base and industrialization of the post WWars Middle East.

I've said above and before, that the changes to Islam will come from the 'ground up', ie, not from the words but from actions. Words of analysis and explanation always come after actions.

I don't know what you mean that 'I'd be a sucker for Muslim Outreach'. [What the heck is that?]

No, I wouldn't have fired Coughlin but I certainly wouldn't have had only him or his perspective within my research team. I'd want all views on the team.

The fact that the MSM provides us only with blips of 'Bin Laden Has Spoken Yet Again' (ignoring that the guy never moves, never blinks, and hasn't been seen walking or alive for years...) doesn't mean that only extremists have viability in the Islamic world. It means only that the MSM takes delight in such images. The Islamic world will change from the 'bottom up', from actions not words - and the actions are firmly based around economic viability.

Mitt Romney throws in the towel!

Romney has just announced he is "suspending" his campaign for president. Now the question is: is he angling for VP, hoping that septegenerian McCain will keel over in office?

And now the question: will McCain pick Romney for VP, hoping that he can help deliver typically Dem states like Mass and Mich? Or does he pick Huckabee to shore up support in the South and the midWest?

A professional engineer with 40 years of nuclear safety experience and former member of the CNSC weighs in on Keen's claims about the safety of the Chalk River reactor. I believe this guy.

(If link doesn't work, look for John Waddington's article in the opinion section of the Ottawa citizen.)

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/opinion/story.html?id=313d92a4-a91f-404d-87f2-ca85b93d5475

"Don't move into personal attacks."

Personal attacks? Who started this?

"I disagree with your focus on Texts as causal of belief and behaviour"

There is no such thing as Islam without the trilogy, as well as the actions and sayings of its founder. Do you disagree with this?

"You focus on Islam as created by one individual, and ignore the historical context of the belief system, ignore why it was accepted in the first place, why it remained within the collective."

Muslims are commanded to emulate Mohammad, 'the perfect man,' whether they all do so or not. This is fact. However, on the contrary, I have presented mounds of historical context of the belief system as mandated and justified by the teachings.

Islam was not accepted in the first place (the Meccan years), because it was weak and Mohammad had not yet imagined his full political doctrine. During this period, Mohammad collected perhaps a couple of hundred followers. It became acceptable and ballooned to 10,000 plus adherents after the commands for violence, extortion and the shared 'spoils of war' were revealed. It then was transformed into a violently political, pseudo-religious ideology.

The early Caliphs had their own agendas. - Uthman, destroying the existing 26 Qurans and writing his own version, which is the one in use to this day, for example. Probably the first in proto-Arabic, as well. Regardless, the trilogy was used as the vehicle of Islamic jurisprudence, facilitating and sanctifying all societal, political and military edicts, decrees and endevours. Just as in Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc., today.

"You disagree that population size, growth and migration are relevant to socioeconomic and political behaviour."

I do not disagree that certain lab conditions will produce a unique strain. Islam is, afterall, a uniquely desert-Arab ideology. And they say so themselves. It is alien to other cultures, from the texts and teachings in Arabic transmitted to a mostly non-Arabic speaking ummah; to their imposition of Arabic names and dress on all cultures. Beyond being alien, in my opinion, it's bizarre and cartoonish when applied to other cultures.

"You disagree that there are different types of political structure, and that these differences are directly connected to population size, which is linked to economic mode."

As I've said before, watch Turkey, Pakistan and Malasia. When there's unrest in the populace; if they feel Islamic ideology is threatened; or somehow they collectively feel their honour has been diminished, or threatened - they go to the default mode of fundamental, Islamofascism - often in an attempt to regain the so-called supreme 'glory' years.

"You don't work in those areas of analysis. I do. There is a great deal of analysis of societies using these three aspects, and I don't need to validate my analysis by listing them."

Followed by,

"The fact remains, you know nothing of these areas of research - and for you to tell me that they are irrational or without a shred of proof, is arrogant."

Arrogance personified.

BTW, I said that your rejection of the texts as the basis for fundamental Islam is irrational.

'"will McCain pick Romney for VP, hoping that he can help deliver typically Dem states like Mass and Mich? Or does he pick Huckabee to shore up support in the South and the midWest?" -- I think he should pick Colin Powell.

Liberal Keith Martin branded by MSM with the M-word.
MSM casts Martin out of the Liberal caucus.
Citoyen Dion say: Au revoir.
...-

"Martin refuses to delete motion

VICTORIA -- Maverick Island Liberal MP Keith Martin". http://tinyurl.com/2py573 (province)

Tribalism? You must be kidding!

You guys are just discovering this?

I suggest you start looking at Tribalism as a root cause of the inability of most of the worlds people to integrate into a modern society.

Tribalism is Incompatible with modern society!

The Doctrine of multi-culti denies this fundamental truth and the proponents refuse to allow debate on the matter. It is THE root cause of failure in the third world and guarantees the ultimate failure of all the multi-culti utopian plans.

From Hot Air
Which is worse, the old guy who picks his nose in public or the cable network shill whose reaction to the pick is “Good for him!”
http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx?id=9bd87065-4bd5-4ef9-ba08-9c60457a8bbc

"Sexsomnia " Look It Up

ET - well contructed - if theoretical - view on moderate Islam and the future.

But, I suspect you would benefit from more discussion and discourse with moderates within Islam.

Recently, I have. And I can state that what you see in the future, was what I (naively) thought, some weeks ago.

I don't think the same way anymore.

hardboiled - I'm not sure what you are implying, but of course I've discussed my theories with moderate Muslims. And with people involved in social analysis. No, I won't provide any names.

irwin daisy - a debate is not a personal attack. But you get very angry when someone disagrees with you, and you start to make accusations of incompetence (not one shred of evidence, irrational, etc). That's what I'm talking about.

I repeat - I disagree completely with your focus on the texts of Islam as causal of Islamic fascism.

As for your statement that: "There is no such thing as Islam without the trilogy, as well as the actions and sayings of its founder. Do you disagree with this?" -

I completely disagree with YOUR USE of the texts and the 'actions and sayings of its founder'. Your use is determinist and linear. I disagree that a society is a mechanical clone of a text. Would you say that there is no such thing as Christianity without the texts and Jesus? Would you reduce Christianity to this?

You state that Muslims are commanded to 'emulate Mohammed'. So? Explain why. Don't you realize that this is a tactic to promote stability and reject questions? Why was such a mode of behaviour promoted?

My point remains, you ignore the historical and economic context of the emergence of Islam. And the historical and economic context of the emergence of islamic fascism.

You state: "Islam was not accepted in the first place (the Meccan years), because it was weak and Mohammad had not yet imagined his full political doctrine"

Weak' is an evaluative term. Weak in what manner? Why, when he 'imagined' his 'full political doctrine' - was it accepted? Again, you ignore the economic and political context.

There is absolutely no such thing as 'lab conditions' with regard to population dynamics. Or with regard to any social structures.

Furthermore, you are putting the 'cart before the horse' so to speak, when you say that Islam is a 'uniquely desert-Arab' ideology. Please explain what the nature of a desert-Arab is, that would lead to Islam.

Why is it 'alien' to other cultures? For example? Please explain.

You evaluate it as 'bizarre and cartoonish' when applied to other cultures. Could you explain what is, never mind bizarre, but 'cartoonish' when Islam is applied to other cultures?

You still don't understand the relation between demographics, economic and political mode. You refuse to accept that such an infrastructure exists, and remain, I consider, trapped within the Texts. No, it isn't arrogance to inform you that there is a great deal of research about these three systems and their interlocked natures. It's fact.

Your list of Turkey, Pakistan and Malaysia has nothing to do with these three systems. There is no 'default mode' of fundamentalist Islam. These countries are in trouble for a variety of demographic, economic and political reasons, and Al Qaeda, a modernist movement of Islamic fascism, is making use of this weakness. It isn't a default mode of Islam.

Again, as usual, we will continue to disagree.

Mr. Chavez, meet Mr. Contractual Law....

http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNews/idUSN0744656820080207

Islam: head-choppers-off.
...-

"Iranian Ayatollah: Arab Countries Should Have Chopped Off Bush's Head

Speaking of President Bush’s sword dance with the Saudis, here’s the Iranian reaction, from Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati, Chairman of the Iranian Guardian Council.
[...]
Religion of peace!"
(Click picture to play video.)
http://tinyurl.com/2kyzw2 (lgf)

ET,
Thank you for taking the time to carefully answer my question along the lines of what effective way could moderate Muslims be seen and heard.

I do agree with many facets of your overall views. Some of your theory is very good.

The most tangible part of your comments that seems to answer the, *How Moderates can be seen*, question, is this.

** The other important voice, however, is that of women. It is disgusting that the western feminists are showing their *true colours* by their lack of support for Islamic women. However, more and more Islamic women are rejecting the tribal mode of life (patriarchy, sharia law, etc). Again, these will emerge more in the form of action than in words. Actions..are first. **
Posted by: ET at February 7, 2008 1:15 PM

Agreed: [Actions and words together ]

This brings to mind the brave Muslim lady who speaks out to groups about what is wrong with Muslim leaders who twist Islam to their wrongful, power grabbing purposes.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gruIHLIH7qs&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=Tp-KbD43l0k

Wish there were more strong Muslims like her... There probably are. = TG

ET - sharia is incompatible with the notion of western liberal secularism.

Ask moderates to abandon sharia, and you'll get a host of answers.

This tracks specifically to Arab (and Shiite) hatred of the House of Saud. While several reasons exist for this, the uneven application of sharia is a driving force - as it the presence of American troops blaspheming the holy land.

The bottom of it is that sharia cannot coexist with the notion that everyone is created equal, and is deserving of the same protections.

That is why I contest whether long term integration and evolution of the Islamic culture can proceed.

Or, as the British have acknowledged today by accepting sharia into the societal fabric, it cannot.

ET,

This is beyond ridiculous. You brought me into this 'debate' with the remark to charles macdonald, "By the way, are you another name for Irwin Daisy? The two of you seem twinned with each other." This is somewhat disparaging, since you are implying that I am posting under another name. So stop attempting to twist this around into something else such as "a debate is not an attack" and that "you get very angry," etc.

And, emphatically and obviously yes, there would be no Christianity without Christ and the NT. As there is no Islam without Mohammad and the Quran. Unless, of course, you tend towards conspiracy theories.

This is exactly why I think you are irrational in your views.

"Don't you realize that this is a tactic to promote stability and reject questions? Why was such a mode of behaviour promoted?"

Of course I do, it's called control. Your point is?

"Weak' is an evaluative term. Weak in what manner? Why, when he 'imagined' his 'full political doctrine' - was it accepted? Again, you ignore the economic and political context."

As is typical, you didn't read my post, did you?

"It became acceptable and ballooned to 10,000 plus adherents after the commands for violence, extortion and the shared 'spoils of war' were revealed. It then was transformed into a violently political, pseudo-religious ideology."

Mohammad was an Arab, who existed in a desert Arab territory, with all the unique characteristics of that time place. This culture was exported along with the political ideology through wars of conquest.

I said "in my opinion" I think it is cartoonish. It is odd for people of other cultures to wear clothes and adopt names obviously not of their own. This becomes more bizarre when they worship in a language they don't understand. All in order to make the experience more authentic. So?

Furthermore, the Persion and Hindu cultures were higher cultures than the conquering and parasitic Islamic culture.

"No, it isn't arrogance to inform you that there is a great deal of research about these three systems and their interlocked natures. It's fact."

With this twisted approach to debate, you'd make a terrific politician. That, once again, is not what I said. Go read my post.

Until you give me the respect of reading my posts and not misconstruing them, there's no point to this exchange.

"Mohammad was an Arab, who existed in a desert Arab territory...." - Posted by: irwin daisy at February 7, 2008 5:10 PM

Wasn't Christ a Jew who existed in a desert Jewish territory...? 8D

Sharia "law" is a religious "law", it's written into the tenets of the religion of Islam. It affects only those who believe in Islam, they are the ones who will follow it as they freely adhere to their religion.
What possible reason should their religious tenets be written into the laws of this country? Is it all about having legal control thus more control over forcing the women of Islam to obey? Is all about having a tighter rein on their women in this free Western Democracy?

Sorry 'bout above post, meant for another thread.

Keith Martin is a "maverick" MP for wading into the HRC free speech issue:

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=91e424b3-d03b-496a-bdee-891cd26f9c05

hardboiled - yes, I fully agree; Sharia is incompatible with a modern democracy. It's a tribal system that supports a tribal economic, political and social structure. I think it will be abandoned as they abandon tribalism.

irwin daisy - the answer to my suggestion that you and charles macdonald were 'twinned' need not have been instant anger on your part, but, a mere, 'no, we are two separate posters'. That's all. But you get immediately emotional and angry.

Now, my point about your comment about Islam and its texts/Mohammed vs the bible and Jesus - was that I reject your USE of the textual analysis. I don't get your 'conspiracy' theory.

Why did the pre-Islamic pastoral nomadic population require control? Not control by Mohammed, but control over their existence as a particular economic mode? What was going on at the time in that area? That's what's important, and you ignore this.

You haven't answered my question - why was the early ideology, according to you, 'weak', and why did it 'balloon'...and become accepted? Surely you aren't saying that it became such because it was warlike! One has to ask - why was warfare wanted and needed?

There's no need to insult me and say that 'as is typical'..that I didn't read your post. I did read it. Your statement that it became warlike is NOT an answer as to WHY it was acceptable. It's just a description. Description of behaviour is not analysis of behaviour. Again - why was it accepted?

You said: "Mohammad was an Arab, who existed in a desert Arab territory, with all the unique characteristics of that time place. This culture was exported along with the political ideology through wars of conquest."

What was the unique culture of the time? Are you sure the culture was exported? Even in to different economic modes?

Could you give examples of people adopting clothes and names not their own? Do you think it is 'cartoonish' for Africans and other indigeneous peoples to wear suits and ties? To have names like John and Charles? Do you think it is cartoonish for them to worship Jesus and listen to songs and prayers in English? Is it cartoonish for them to adopt the English rule of law and democracy?

What is the point of your statement that "Furthermore, the Persion and Hindu cultures were higher cultures than the conquering and parasitic Islamic culture." What, by the way, defines a 'higher' culture?

I do agree; there is no point in 'debating' with you, because you don't debate. And, you have no knowledge of and reject the importance of the entwined ecological, economic and political structure. So- I guess, it's back to your Texts.

no, Yesua was a Jew living in the Roman territory of Galilee, north of Samaria. It is a fertile low land of farms extending up to the higher elevations around Nazareth where it was more herding. its wasnt and isnt desert.

Hardboiled,

"Wasn't Christ a Jew who existed in a desert Jewish territory...? 8D"

Certainly. However, the Galilean/Judean culture, in terms of clothes, language, superstition, etc., wasn't essential to the faith and therefore wasn't exported along with it.

LIz J,

I don't think it's just about women. It's either a naive attempt at furthering the false construct of multiculturalism and tolerance. Or it's a cynical attempt to control. Either way, in my opinion, it's treason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:First_century_palestine.gif

this map shows the Philistines have continously occupied the same approximate spot for 2000 years. they should be happy to have a wall.

Douglas:

OK, I'll give it a try:

"Canada: we're sort of OK, eh?"

Craig Oliver,on Mike Duffy Live,commenting on a possible election this spring,"It will be fun to put this government out of it's misery." Gee,Craig,you mean you don't like Harper and friends?

REX MURPHY--- being very un CBCpravda. I think CBCpravda keeps him around in case they ever have to feign balance.

http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/rex_murphy/all_whipped_up.html

My question on sharia law,Will adapting sharia law result in a better society for all people in that society? I don't think so and I am pretty sure that most men,along with virtually all free women,and the sexually-challenged would oppose adopting sharia.

cal2 - quite right; the ecological reality of the area which saw the development of Christianity was a fertile area, that was becoming more heavily populated with the introduction of Roman irrigation, roads, and law. Christianity is an ideology that supports different peoples assimilating and 'loving each other'. That makes sense in this economic environment.

Islam, on the other hand, developed seven centuries later, four centuries after the adoption of Christianity as the 'glue' to hold the Roman Empire together. It was, I maintain, a militant reaction of a previously isolated pastoral nomadic economy to the Byzantine encroachment on their land base.

Cal2...
Thanks for the link.... I have been thinking that the Palistinians were acting like Philistines for some time and you have shown that that is what they are. so I guess the only thing a sensible sensitive person should do is stop calling them Palistinians and call them Philistines. There. I feel so much better now.

There you go again ET,

How do you know that I am emotional and angry? It appears, rather, that you are.

You don't like having your theories challenged. Ironic that that's exactly what your accusations are against Stephane Dion.

"Now, my point about your comment about Islam and its texts/Mohammed vs the bible and Jesus - was that I reject your USE of the textual analysis. I don't get your 'conspiracy' theory."

Once again, that's not what I said. I questioned you on conspiracy theories. However, since you brought it up again, here's your original statement:

"I completely disagree with YOUR USE of the texts and the 'actions and sayings of its founder'. Your use is determinist and linear. I disagree that a society is a mechanical clone of a text. Would you say that there is no such thing as Christianity without the texts and Jesus? Would you reduce Christianity to this?"

It appears, that you would agree with Lenin's statement that "religion is the opiate of the masses." reducing religious faith to nothing more than a demographic, economic and political construct of control, therefore fitting your theory and your atheistic faith.

I have ignored nothing about Mohammad's time and place, quite the contrary. Furthermore, the 'why' as far as your theory of tribal nomads responding to agrarian aggressors, can only be relevant to the time, not to its spread throughout history.

In fact, that's what the Islamofascists say, everything is a defensive war.

"why did it 'balloon'...and become accepted?" War has a purpose and it won't be achieved unless it's shared. In the Islamic case, it was narcistic, supremacist belief, avoidance of temporal and spiritual pain, as well as greed and lust - culminating in war booty. Today, it's supremacist belief and avoidance of pain, for the lower caste anyhow. Although, the Quranic promises still stand in a resurgent Islam. The kaffir is still an animal, whos property is to be rightfully seized.

"There's no need to insult me and say that 'as is typical'..that I didn't read your post. I did read it. Your statement that it became warlike is NOT an answer as to WHY it was acceptable. It's just a description. Description of behaviour is not analysis of behaviour. Again - why was it accepted?"

From my earlier post, "after the commands for violence, extortion and the shared 'spoils of war' were revealed."

As I said, typical. (You realize, 'extortion' refers to the jizya?)

I clearly gave reference to what I meant as Arabic culture. The only economic aspect of the cultural export was the jizya and war booty included in shariah law.

How about 300 million Mohammads? How about conspicuously Arabic names applied to 'reverted' Hindu's, Persians, Anglo Saxons, Chechens, Phillipinos, etc., etc.

Do I think it's silly for people to wear 7th century burkas, rather than modern clothes? Yes. Do I think it's silly for people to speak a difficult and antiquated language that the majority don't understand, like Arabic, in order to be true to their faith? Yes. Do I think it's silly for most cultures to use Arabic names with guttural, foreign pronunciations? Yes. As I would with wide spread use of guttural Scottish/Gaelic, required for a religion as well.

So, what's your point? That's my opinion.

The rest of your post is highly argumentative, I won't bother responding.

It was, I maintain, a militant reaction of a previously isolated pastoral nomadic economy to the Byzantine encroachment on their land base.
Is this the Patricia Crone thesis that another poster cited here a while back as way-out there radical?
I've never encountered this anywhere but from you ET. Anywhere.

And again, so what! Moreover, this now irrelevant argument feeds the jihadist grievance-machine. This is what bugs me most about your theory which leads to the conclusion that it's push back against Christian aggression. It's irrelevant NOW, and moreover it damages the counter-jihad (and that doesn't just mean physical fighting!). By "street smarts" I mean, Wafa Sultan, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Nonie Darwish have it, and you'd don't. You're too cerebral -- too academic (pejorative meaning).

Obviously you are right when you say that Shari'a law is incompatible with Democracy. I came to the same conclusion after -- guess what -- my own research and study of Islam, and therefore concluded that the whole "democracy" project, while noble in intent, was wrong-headed. Both Iraq and Afghanistan have shari'a based constitutions. A while back a young man in Afghanistan was sentenced to be executed for offending Islam. The sentence was over-turned due to international pressure [read: desire to keep the jizya flowing].

Both the left and the right were wrong about Political Islam. Read the Thornton piece linked at Posted by: Charles MacDonald at February 7, 2008 11:36 AM

Quick and dirty summary: the left's argument about poverty was wrong, as was the right's argument about the "the lack of freedom" for which Muslims have no desire at all. Nor do most Canadians, come to think of it.

On top of that, ET, your statement:

"a militant reaction of a previously isolated pastoral nomadic economy to the Byzantine encroachment on their land base."

This is false and ahistorical. Nobody wanted that desert land. It was good for nothing. Neither is anybody else mentioned in the Hadith or Sira, other than resident Arab/Jewish tribes.

Your historical revisionism is preposterous.

In fact, that's what the Islamofascists say, everything is a defensive war.

YES. INDEED. I make the same point just above.

Agreed, MND.

me no dhimmi - the fact that you haven't encountered an historical analysis of a population that considers their economic mode and their reaction to another, intrusive economic mode, doesn't mean that it's invalid.

I suggest, by the way, that you check out Patricia Crone. Her argument is rooted in an analysis of the nature of pre-industrial societies in interaction/conflict with each other, in the ME. She uses original texts in Arabic, Hebrew, Greek..etc..

Her work relies heavily on original texts and descriptions of the historic events of the period. There's a great deal of research on the economic activities of the period - from the pre-Christian through Roman through post-Roman times, in the ME. You can check this out.

See also Michael Cook who works with Crone. They reject relying only on the Islamic texts as historic and ideological sources and insist that you must rely on varied historical sources, archaeological and philological data.

Cook writes: "Virtually all accounts of the early development of Islam take it as axiomatic that it is possible to elicit at least the outlines of the process from the Islamic sources. It is however well-known that these sources are not demonstrably early. There is no hard evidence for the existence of the Koran in any form before the last decade of the seventh century, and the tradition which places this rather opaque revelation in its historical context is not attested before the middle of the eighth. The historicity of the Islamic tradition is thus to some degree problematic:"

This is an HISTORICAL analysis. My point in this, is that it is using non-Islamic sources to document the emergence and rise of Islam, and focuses on its relations with other socioeconomic populations in the area at that time.

An ecological economic analysis requires an understanding of the ecological nature of the area at the time, as well as an economic analysis outlining economic stresses of different economies.

I think these types of analysis are far more robust than an assertion that Islam emerged simply as the imagined 'revelations' of one single individual, who then, for some unstated reason, gathered tens of thousands of followers who, for another unstated reason, were all militants. That's a pretty weak argument for the emergence and rise of Islam!

Why is it a weak argument? Because it is 'psychological'. It focuses only on the psychological nature of ONE person, and the psychological nature (warlike) of his followers. I'm afraid that I don't accept psychological reasons for social realities.

No, my theory isn't 'push back' against Christian aggression. It's certainly a reaction, but against a particular type of economy - settled agriculturalism. The fact that this economic mode moved into Christianity is utterly irrelevant. Christianity functioned to coalesce and assimilate previously more isolate and operationally hostile settlements.

But, the reactive rise of Islam, as a tribal mode of a pastoral nomadic economy (not a settled agriculture but a nomadic)...isn't a reaction against Christianity. It's an economic societal reaction.

I don't see what's wrong with analysis of WHY a particular ideology emerges and is powerful. The people you list are acknowledging WHAT is happening now, and rejecting the violence. I agree, but I go further, because I'm interested in how and WHY such a mode of belief and behaviour could arise in the first place - and WHY it has arisen again. There's a deep difference between describing WHAT is happening and analyzing WHY it is happening. It's easy to describe WHAT; but I think that the analysis of WHY must also be done.

I read the Thornton piece; didn't agree. I think that enabling democracy in the ME is the only way to 'break open' the frozen mindset that they ahve trapped themselves within. Freedom isn't an option when your economy moves into an industrial mode. The communists have learned that as well. It's a requirement - or - your economy collapses. Simple as that.

Somalian you say...

"The pilots on board said a female passenger had attacked them and inflicted minor injuries before she was removed from the cockpit and contained.

The 33-year-old woman from Blenheim, who is originally from Somalia, also made threats of two bombs being on board."

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1320238/1574444

"I am an American Arab Muslim from Saudi Arabia, the birth place of Islam and home to its holy shrines. While I agree and have been in the forefront all my life to promote democracy, cooperation, harmony and peaceful coexistence among all peoples, I find it exceedingly disingenuous to compare the American democratic values: Individual liberties, respect for and empowerment of the individual, religious freedom, freedom of the press, thought, expression, civil society, bill of rights, independent judicial system, transparency, accountability, tolerance of differences and protection of women’s and minority rights under the rule of universal laws with Arab and Muslim values now or ever. Such comparison is contradictory to the realities on the ground and distortion of historical facts. I agree that people to people cooperation, communication, understanding and exchange of ideas and information are essential and must be embraced, but the overwhelming majority of Arabs and Muslims are not allowed to express themselves in any form or shape without incurring death, incarceration, flogging, loss of jobs and accusations of being anti-Islam, CIA agents ant the mother of all treasons, Zionist agent, by their tyrannical rulers who govern in the name of God, Shariah and the Hadith.
Sincerely,
Ali Alyami"

This comment on Bruce Thornton article is in the same vein that Hirsi Ali states in her book "Infidel". Though she embraced western values her fellow muslims in Holland rejected them though continuing to accept their largesse. She had to leave her religion as it is incompatible with western ideals.

Though ET makes good points especially that multiculturialism must go I fear the shear volume of muslims pouring into Canada and the west will ensure their mullahs will stamp out those who stray. ET do you believe we have the luxury of enough time to allow Islam to evolve from a theocracy to a religion?

The left/libs that seem to occupy so many vital pillars will continue with their appeasement and back-pedaling while the perpetually outraged theocracy escalates its demands. Interesting times ahead.

"the fact that you haven't encountered an historical analysis of a population that considers their economic mode and their reaction to another, intrusive economic mode, doesn't mean that it's invalid."

It's invalid because it's false. There is not one iota of historical evidence for your assertion that militant and political Islam is a result of a Byzantine incursion into the nomadic 'Arabic' desert lands. Nowhere. Certainly not in the Islamic texts. Which is the topic here - their ideology and resulting history.

In fact, even today, what would anybody want with Arabia other than the oil? What other exports do they have?

Your theory is invalid and false. As most of your analysis is of the ME.

For example:

Mahmoud Zahha, Hamas' foreign minister told the Economist,

“We [Palestinians] were never an independent state in history,” he notes. “We were part of an Arab state and an Islamic state.”

http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10609550

Care to prove your Palestinian theory to a 'Palestinian?'

"The first sign of genius is contradiction." - Oscar Wilde

There still might be hope.

ET:
Definitely didn't mean to suggest that because my untutored self didn't encounter it, it doesn't exist! I have great admiration for your intelligence and scholarship and defer to it, and, frankly, like others, live in dread of being whacked by your trenchant analytical skills!

But even if your theory as to the emergence of Islam is sound, I just don't see its relevance to the existential threat we face today -- and I don't mean from "terrorism". Rather, from being eaten alive from within via the cultural jihad.
Perhaps if you explained how you would apply this theory to defeating the jihad, practical, pragmatic sorts like me and irwin daisy (and others) might be more receptive.

But to argue that today the Islamic texts are not central to the jihad shocks and alarms me. As Coughlin says, we need to take the jihadists and what they say -- which is clearly based on the texts -- seriously. We ignore this at our peril.
The counter-jihad is floundering becuase we have failed to named the enemy which is Political or Caliphate Islam. As someone amusingly put it on another thread, "war on terrorism" makes about as much sense as calling WW2 "war against tanks".

* Received my Popper -- volume 2! :( Have now ordered volume 1! Lovely trade paperback.
** Ever heard of Eric Hoffer,the longshoreman/philosopher? I just started reading his "True Believers", his first and quite short work.

Americans get their first dose of Suzuki:
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/07/canadian-scientist-politicians-skeptical-of-global-warming-belong-in-prison/

So what will Craig say when PMSH gets a majority.
Isn't his comment very biased for a reporter.
It will be fun to see Craig unemployed, or retiring for family reasons.
It will be fun to see Dion break Kim's record for number of mps elected.
It will be fun to see May defeated.
It will be fun to quit paying Paul Martin an mps salary for nothing.
It will be great fun listening to dion and PMSH debate, in english. No spinners allowed to tell us what he meant to say.

Craig is simply pining for his Liberal Senate appointment, having performed all his media manipulations.

CTV should fire the old useless goat. In the age of the internet, his opinions don't matter.

He won't even fade away. He'll immediately evaporate.

Surely even old Liberal Lover Craig Oliver didn't say it would be fun to put the Conservatives specifically out of misery. I think he meant this Parliament in general. The Conservatives are not in misery, it's the Liberals and Dippers who fall into that category, the Bloc are as pathetic as ever.

The Liberals are scared s**tless of an election. Their leader and his deputy, the Puffin Man, are on different wavelengths for starters.

We have only one clear choice to run this Country
and that is Harper. There's no other person even close to capable.

MND

No consideration or discussion of mass movements - religions - politics - or those that topple left - is complete without Hoffer's insight.

Warning: "The True Believer" is a small book - but it is a BIG read. Or perhaps one could say it warrants many re-reads.

Dave - I think that Islam in the ME will actually change faster than Islam in the West. That's because Islam in the ME, as an ideology, is confronted with reality. The reality of economics and a population within that national economy. You can't stay in a tribal mode within an industrial economy. You must move into a civic mode.

The tribal mode operates via family and kin networks. The civic mode operates via collaborative non-kin work networks. An industrial economy requires the civic mode, also known as a 'middle class'. I think the hard economic realities of the ME will move it into that civic mode.

Bush's structural change of Iraq was exactly right; and the ME will change. What you see now in the ME, is Muslim vs Muslim, or, fundamentalists trying to prevent a middle class from emerging. They'll work it out.

The danger is in the sophistry of the leftist West with their insistence on multiculturalism.

That enables Islam as an ideology, a detached, isolate ideology to exist...decontextualized from the realities of the economy, from interaction with other peoples...An ideology that is isolated from daily reality moves into a Purist form. That's dangerous. That's what Hirsi Ali and others are experiencing and correctly rejecting. But, this isolationism enables and promotes fanaticism.

me no dhimmi - I think that understanding an ideology's historic emergence gives one some understanding of its 'fault lines'. Though you are quite right. Knowing how Islam emerged won't necessarily help one to deal with it now.

But, realizing that it emerged as a result of an economic tension in the ME, enables one to realize that Islam has very little to say about 'religion', ie, the metaphysical, and most of what it says is copied from the Judaic and Christian ideology.

Islam is primarily an economic, social and political system - and the system is tribal. Once you realize that the Islamic system is about a tribal mode of life, you can understand, I think, how to deal with it and realize that the ME areas must be assisted to move into a civic mode.

I think you'll enjoy Popper; his argument is in favour of a civic mode (the open society) versus a tribal mode (the closed society).

I think that defeating Islamic fascism, which is not the same as the original Islam, and not the same as the 'everyday follower of Islam', is vital. There are two major tactics. The first, the US has, in large part, accomplished. That was to move it back into the ME.

It was being forced out into the West by the ME tribal dictators who were trying to get rid of people angry against their dictatorship by diverting them to be 'anti-American'. The real problem is those tribal dictators!

Islamic fascism developed as an attempt to deconstruct tribalism - which is setting up corrupt oil-rich tribal elites -- and move the ME into a centralist theological politico-religious structure (aka the Taliban). The current oil-rich tribal dictators in the ME wanted to retain THEIR tribe-in-power.

But -Neither a hierarchical tribal system nor a centralized theological structure will work. It has to be a civic mode. So, the US pushed the fight between these two systems back into the ME. That's where it should be, and that's what the current fighting is about in the ME. It's internal. But it can't be either tribalism or a theological autocracy. It has to be a civic mode, because the economy is industrial. No choice.

The other tactic is to reject the dangerous 'haven' of the West's multiculturalism. This haven, which moves Islam in the West from being a contextualized ideology to a Purist Ideology, is extremely dangerous. The West has to confront multiculturalism and reject any introduction of Sharia law, reject any attempts to stop criticism of Islam, and so on.

The multicultural isolation of Islam, removing it from the daily life realities of the local economy, the local politics, and other-people is where 'Textual Jihad' can exist; it's textual only because it, as an ideology, is completely decontextualized from everyday reality.

It's a pure, fundamentalist ideology - you can't argue with it, you can't show that it can/cannot work, because it's pure thought. Pure ideology. Therefore, you can't argue with a Text. There's no debate. In that sense, it's very dangerous - as Aristotle said again and again. And you'll read the same in Popper.

We are nowhere near dealing constructively with this danger. We are starting; the West is, in Europe, rejecting Sharia, rejecting special rights and insisting on the common rule of law. It's not enough, but it has to continue and more strongly. But, we have to work with Muslims on this - moderate ones - to reject Sharia, reject shutting down free speech, etc.

(I don't think Irwin Daisy would ever be receptive to my analysis; he doesn't understand economic and political structures).

Heh.
couldn't happen to a nicer guy!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080207.wexxon0207/BNStory/energy/home

me no dhimmi - you say you received vol. 2 of the Popper book? I know which edition you received! I once ordered that title for my students in one of my classes and the bookstore only ordered the second volume. I was stunned; it's one book, regardless of some versions being put into two volumes.

At any rate, the first volume, on Plato, is really quite important. See his brief outline in the introduction and his first chapter on 'historicism'. Vol 2- ch 23, 24, 25 are good summaries.

No, I haven't read Hoffer. Have you read Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel? He has an ecological focus.

ET

Methinks thou are optimistic too far. But perhaps being a kaffir in Muslim lands on too many occasions and experiencing subtle and overt discrimination based on the 'beliefs' of True Believers has left me jaded. Moderation is unlikely for to be 'moderate' is to reject the 'beliefs'.

Again, I recommend Hoffer's observations - perhaps MND will loan you his copy - but that too is unlikely for it is a precious little book.

ET

I second your recommendation of Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel". No one should be allowed to graduate high school without reading - and understanding it.

However, Diamond's "Collapse" misses Reality by such a wide margin it brings his earlier work into question.

Jet - Agree with you about Collapse. Unreal that the two books could be from the same author.

JET: Hoffer, The True Believer. You got that right. I was so excited reading it this morning that I sorta promised to loan it to a friend unfinished while I continued with my other reads. But I have since demurred.

Absolutely clear this will be a multiple read.

ET/JET (heh): Thanks for the Jared Diamond recommendation. I'll put it on my list.

"(I don't think Irwin Daisy would ever be receptive to my analysis; he doesn't understand economic and political structures)."

ET,

Again you make assertions on no evidence whatsoever. How do you know what I understand? How do you know what I do for a living?

I don't agree with you on a fundamental issue - your irrational rejection of the texts, including the actions and sayings of Mohammad as the basis of the ideololgy and the application of such to history right up to the present time.

In doing so you also reject what Muslims say and believe.

You can assert whatever theory you like and you can project whatever mystical outcome based on your theory. The fact of the matter is you are not dealing with reality, if you reject the ideology. Just as disturbing is that your theory is largely based on historical revisionism. On top of it all, you arrogantly refuse to supply evidence to support your theory and your view of history,

irwin daisy:

Frankly, I too was shocked by that assertion based on my readings of your excellent posts.
I believe ET's argument, while perhaps containing some merit vis a vis ecology/economy and the emergence of Islam, is really very confused.
Clearly, the fact that Caliphate Islamists use and are highly motivated by the texts is beyond debate.

One other thing: I believe ET is a bit confused on the "great man" thing. While it's true that the "great man" doesn't change history all by himself, i.e., the populace is ripe and primed for the change, his role is still key as he represents a highly concentrated distillation of the zeitgiest and leads the people to where they are already prepared to go. So he is instrumental!

Another afterthought: Evidently, Western appeasers just did not read Mein Kampf. They took his jew-hatred as just so much bluster, and didn't bother reading "holy text". But it was there, all spelled out in black and black. You only needed to have read it -- and taken him seriously.

This is essentially Coughlin's point. We ignore the texts and what the jihadists themselves say at our own peril. Walid Phares opines that it was the role of the academy to keep us out of the know about Caliphate Islam, and hence the question after 9/11: "Why do they hate us". I suspect that ET is a unwitting party to this dangerous obfuscation.

Rational reason is the poison which Islam is not want to take.

Such is the cutting of the lines.

ET is right for all the wrong reasons.