How about me? My German ancestors were enslaved by the Romans.

I want compensation - two weeks all expenses paid on the Amalfi coast would barely start to repair the damage.

Who do I call at the Italian Embassy?

The word "slave" comes from the word "Slav" -- because so many slaves were white.

And slavery still exists: in non-white Muslim nations...

"Scotland was never known for its cotton."

Aye.

I believe in reparation for slavery.

I think it should come in the form of a one-way airline ticket to Africa.

Weren't the Scots persecuted, driven off their lands, or was that just the Irish? I've got a healthy dose of both in me, but, just like Kate can't feel generational guilt, I can't feel generational victimization. I just hope that the Irish didn't drive out the Scots, or vica-versa, because then I would really be conflicted.

If Kate does manage to feel "down" about her heritage, she might want to try the following book:

How the Scots Invented the Modern World: The True Story of How Western Europe's Poorest Nation Created Our World and Everything in It

http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2a.html

I am proud of my Scottish Celtoi/Pict ancestry and still think we kicked Roman butt better than anyone.

Slavery is a reality amongst all peoples, which the Toronto Star, sublime in its ignorance, ignores.

As pointed out above, slavery was a reality in every part of the world. Without exception. It's an economic mode and has many types, including whole tribes enslaved, or people caputured in raids, or women, or children, or ethnic groups.

It was a reality amongst the Greeks and Romans. Oh, and heck, amongst black peoples too. Among the Arab Islamic nations. Still is - eg, in Mauritania, in Niger. It's widespread, now, in the 'developing' countries. It was the West who first moved out of this economic mode, by freeing people into the market rather than dependence economy.

Of course, the left won't acknowledge any of this. But, transforming young black students, who have no parental or great, great grand parental history of slavery, into victims-of-slavery is one of the most pernicious and malicious things one can do to these young people.

Rather than focusing them on themselves, developing their skills, insisting that they are responsible for themselves, this Victimology is inserting a deep sense of injustice, a sense of failure due to others not to themselves, a sense of entitlement and a tactic of always 'passing the blame' and 'passing the responsibility' on to others.

It's amazing how the left can so readily destroy people and things!

What a load of rascist tripe written.
This is why I hate Toronto with a passion.
They have produced the Leafs.
They have produced the Toronto Star.
They have produced this rascist douchebag that seeks to blame me and my child for all the ills created by her mushy thinking.
There was no slavery in Canada, except as practiced by native bands.
Our ancestors all had a tough time of it. Racsist twits like that are making it worse for her descendants.

"As a black critic I want people to see that blackness is everything"

Nurse

Those kids are screwed.

Because of the conversational nature of the interviews, they also reflect Nurse's critical practice--as when, in a group interview with Andre Alexis, Nalo Hopkinson, and Djanet Sears, she notes that, "As a black critic I want people to see that blackness is everything"

We're not responsible for slavery, according to the G&M we're responsible for aboriginal alcoholism:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080205.wcomment0205/BNStory/National/home

Hard to imagine - a major Canadian newspaper publishing an opinion that people should feel 'worse' about themselves if they are racially classified as 'white'.

If we want to establish who is going to 'feel worse' because of their race maybe we just tool up right now and get it on with a race-based civil war? That's the only way I can think of to make white people really 'feel worse' if they don't want to voluntarily 'feel worse'. Nothing beats the bayonet if you really want to make people 'feel worse'.

I wonder if I could sue the Italians for how many British and French ancestors were treated in the Roman days, and I also wonder if I could sue the Russians for how they treated my Ukrainian ancestors as well.

Slavery was abolished by Christian nations over 140 years ago.

My grandparents came to the US from Poland in 1901.

My family has never had Anything to do with slavery. I refuse to feel the slightest bit of shame for something I had Nothing to do with.

However, islam owes the world reparations for 1400 years of slavery, which is still going on today. That includes the enslavement of at least two million white Europeans, from the 1600s to the 1800s.

Signs outside Toronto hotels 100 years ago proclaimed "NO DOGS OR IRISH".

Media articles to this day still refer to police vans as "Paddy Wagons".

My feelings are hurt and someone should feel guilty. When will I see a reparation cheque?

Thanks for that Kate.

Beautifully put and likely to get more hits than the Toronto Star today.

Irish Bart -- I'll send you one, if you'll send me one.

sign me...

Scottish Rick.

Good point, Kate. I refuse to feel collective guilt for any historic wrong committed by some members of my race/ethnic group generations back. I'm not a believer in the concept of original sin nor that guilt gets carried forward to persons yet unborn. I didn't own slaves and I wasn't a Nazi. If Southerners were enforcing separate water fountains 40 years ago, it wasn't my mother doing it. And, even if my mother was doing it, I wasn't.

I wonder if the black history courses will mention that whites themselves ended the slave trade, that the purveyors of slaves in Africa were blacks themselves and almost as many soldiers died(46,000 to 51,000)on the battlefield at Gettysburg in three days than in all of our years in Vietnam and that white taxpayers in the US initiated and supported the largest transfer of wealth to a designated group in our history 40 years ago with entitlements that still continue to this day.

"This is why I hate Toronto with a passion."

I understand the anger, but I listen to toronto call-in shows and hear countless callers who oppose black schools and all the stupidity that goes along with them. And a lot of the callers are black.
Can't disagree about the Leafs, though.

You cannot feel guilt about something that you are not guilty of, it's as simple as that.

Further to otter's comments and to penny's comments in her last paragraph:

This history written by Canadian Christian missionary Don Richardson in 1996 on the source of Western slavery and the cause of its termination.

http://www.fishhouseministries.com/pdf/IslamReviewed.pdf#page=110

Some excerpts below:

ABOUT four years ago CNNs Larry King, on Larry King Live, interviewed
Louis Farrakhan, head of The Nation of Islam. King asked Farrakhan why
he advises Christian Afro-Americans to turn from Christianity to Islam.
Fharrakan replied that Christianity is the religion of those who enslaved
Africans. Islam, he said, has always championed the black race, and thus
deserves the loyalty of Afro-Americans.
...
Meanwhile more and more Muslim teachers worldwide are
spreading a triumphal claim that a majority of black people in America
have already converted to Islam. Descendants of the very people
Christians took to America as slaves, they assert, have by Allah's mercy
become the means whereby America is at last being drawn to Islam.
...
Millions of black people in America have long regarded Abraham
Lincoln, a Christian, as a virtual saint - a deliverer of the black race.
Louis Farrakhan is not pleased to hear a Christian thus commended. In
his address carried nationwide by CNN on the occasion of "The Million
Man March" in Washington, D. C., Farrakhan sneeringly referred to
Abraham Lincoln as our supposed deliverer.
...
Christians in Europe thus unwittingly granted Islam a 1000-year
head start in altering the destiny of subSaharan Africans. Yet Muslim
missionaries, by siding with Muslim slavers instead of opposing them,
forfeited the enviable advantage that 1000-year head start afforded. Had
they opposed slavery instead of condoning it, Muslim missionaries could
have spread Islam all the way from the Sahara to Africa's southern tip.
Teaching the Koran, building Mosques and founding Islamic schools with
not a hint of contest from Christians, they could have Islamicized an
entire continent.
...
Why do Muslim nations renounce slavery nominally and then
deny its existence when it persists? Quite obviously they are disinterested
in the moral issue. Two persuasions have proved effective: 1. Muslim
governments sensitive to international peer pressure from predominantly
Christian nations in Europe and the Americas had to end slavery, at
least on paper, or be viewed as barbarian. 2. Muslim nations indifferent
to world opinion still may have a reason given in an item boxed with The
Economist article quoted above: "To appease western aid donors"!
What caused many Christians, on the other hand, to refuse to own
slaves even when other Christians justified their crime? What caused
slavery-opposing Christians to take the lead in mounting a determined
effort to see all slaves set free?

It is a good read.

Mauritania recently enacted a law imposing penalties for keeping slaves.
But, " But a year on, and no-one has yet been prosecuted under the new law. "We enacted it just to meet international standards," says Bamariam Koita, director of the government's Human Rights Commission."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4091579.stm

Ok, so you wrote this specifically to get reported to a human rights tribunal, didn't you?

If you want to feel some real guilt, you don't have to fret over what one group of dead people did to another group of dead people. All you have to do is look at your nearest Indian reserve. Frozen babies, childhood addiction, and communities living with rampant violence are something that we all bear responsibility for until we are prepared to make the hard choices necessary to end or fix the Indian Act and the reserve system which creates those conditions.

Jeez, if we're to feel guilt for the transgressions of our ancestors, I should really, really feel guilty. Mine were Vikings from Norway. We invaded & occupied Ireland, most of Britain, the Norman coast of France and were "invited" to rule Russia. We discovered Iceland and Greenland. We were the first, not those damned Italians, to discover America 500 years before they did. Horrors, we were the ones trading white "slavs" with the Caliphates in the Mediterranean area. Vikings were the Hells Angels of the 8-10th centuries and our "Hogs" were fast, shallow draft Draken (dragon) boats. We even had an all expense paid clubhouse on the Med, for summer vacations in the Byzantine Empire as personal bodyguards to the local Muslim Big Shot (slave trader) , because we could whup just about anybodies a** at the time. We were "heathens", Pagan whorshippers, then we changed to Christianity and it all feel apart. Drat! Now no more raidin' and killin' and pillagin'. (sigh) Now all that's left of us is a socialist, fish eating, caring sharing country, with OIL. Send us a bill.

You are a hard woman, Kate. Me, I don't feel any remorse for slavery either, but that is because I spend all my waking hours feeling guilty about the Crusades.

SO I wonder if the black Africans who captured and sold their fellow black Africans as slaves need to feel white guilt as well ??

They who prospered by slavery, according to the column, should all feel guilt.

Wonder how slavery restitution would be determined by the SoC if a case of the Aboriginals on Canada's west coast operating a slave trade for centuries ??

Probably a split decision.

My English ancestors kicked the stuffing out of my Scottish ancestors at Culloden. How do you think that makes me feel? Talk about conflicted!

There's never a Social Worker around when you need one.

"If you want to feel some real guilt..."

Sorry. That doesn't do it for me either.

I do feel guilt about most things my ancestors did.

Because of that, any time my parents or grandparents get a speeding ticket, I demand that the government send me one, too. Reparations, and all that.

By the way, I also challenge the members of the African community in Toronto to do the same thing. Next time one of your community shoots an innocent bystander or gets caught dealing drugs, the entire family should get the sentence given to the perpetrator. It's only fair.

my ancestors were booted from Olduvai gorge by the same bunch that feel so slighted now . We had to migrate all the way to Europe. on the way, because of lack of sunlight we lost our colour.

years latter in yorkshire , we were so poor we couldnt afford slaves but were treated as such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

I love the whole notion of reparations--payment by those who didn't do the wrong to those who didn't suffer it.

Slavery reparations were paid years ago - not in money but in blood. The liberals on both sides of the 49th should apply their logic about wasted lives and altered futures to the dead of America's Civil War. If it were possible, I would love to see Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton confront the Union dead at Arlington and tell them that a high enough price has yet to be paid for the sin of slavery. Then they could move on to the dead from places with names like the Marne, Argonne, Iwo, Normandy, Anzio, Pusan, Khe San, and tell all of them that they have not yet paid a price high enough for their freedom. This isn't about "paying for slavery." Its only extortion and assuaging white liberal guilt. When liberals want us to forgive THEIR sins, they chant, "Move on!" Yeah, lets.

There,I just did my 45 seconds of 'guilt' I sure feel better now!What an absolute load of horse dung,but not unexpected from that rag.

scottish mill workers made cotton thread that was sold world-wide. many lost their jobs during the american civil war due to the cotton famine, a shortage created by confederate states in order to draw england and france into the civil war on the south's behalf.

so you see kate, perhaps your ancestors were displaced mill workers who were forced to leave bonnie scotland to seek employment in the new world.enslaved cotton labourers employed your ancestors. you may not feel any guilt but you can't escape the connection.

If "enslaved cotton labourers employed your ancestors" -- doesn't that makes those slaves employers and not, er, slaves...?

Signs outside Toronto hotels 100 years ago proclaimed "NO DOGS OR IRISH".

do they let dogs in now.?

jeff [sic] while you're at it, please tell us all about the Bush family control of the Scottish slave trade cabal.

Friggin leftard.

That has to be the most- if not the ONLY- reasonable comment I've ever seen from jeffy d.

Hey, jeff, just exactly how did "enslaved cotton labourers" come up with the cash to put Kate's ancestors on their payroll? Slaves on cotton plantations hiring and bankrolling indigent Scottish mill workers, wow, that connection sounds so stupid that it can't be that stupid and must therefore be a trick statement of extreme brilliance.

connect the dots...

no slaves,no cotton trade, no scottish mill workers.

The article written by Nurse seems to have certain lightness to it. The ‘feeling’ is lighter than air.
It is written in newspeak no doubt. It may be from courses possibly a university anywhere in Canada, that teach newspeak as a major in many instances.
No reality based argument required.

oh yes, the "NO IRISH" analogy doesn't work. you may have been denied admittance to the local hotel for being irish in canada at one time but you certainly weren't hung up on a tree for trying.

Let's face it, white Westerners didn't invent slavery and never had a monopoly on it. It's as old as man himself and has existed on every continent. Rather than feeling guilty for once practising it, we should feel pride in having given it up, of our own accord, without being forced to.

Evil exists and has existed everywhere, but where has most of what's good come from, in art, science, and human relations? From Western civilization, in my opinion. Be proud.

For the sake of comparison, let's change a few words in this woman's speech to illustrate just how crazy her ideas really are:

"I am very grateful that white students in Little Rock may soon have the option of attending Eurocentric schools....

When it came time for high school, I placed my daughter at the Jefferson Davis Confederate Academy, which is considered a white school....

In short order, my daughter's spirits improved, along with her marks. She was placed on the Honour Roll. For Grade 12, she asked for permission to return to the public system.

In a stroke of luck, she landed at a southern school that boasts respect for white culture. She joined the yearbook committee, the European Canadian Club...and hopes to attend Stonewall Jackson College.

Attending a white school did not separate my daughter from the wider community; it gave her the confidence she needed to take her place in it....

I do believe white-focused schools are an excellent option for students like my daughter, although I think the word Eurocentric is a slippery term....

For me, white-focused schools are important because they will offer white children a more complete and truthful history of people of European descent – Europe being the common denominator."

"If you want to feel some real guilt, you don't have to fret over what one group of dead people did to another group of dead people. All you have to do is look at your nearest Indian reserve. Frozen babies, childhood addiction, and communities living with rampant violence are something that we all bear responsibility for until we are prepared to make the hard choices necessary to end or fix the Indian Act and the reserve system which creates those conditions."

I created neither the act nor the system.. I don't feel guilty, don't lose any sleep over either..much like the Liberal enablers who perpetuate the Indian industry for profit, much to the detriment of the native population.

Don't they contribute to the continued and current enslavement of these people, to the economic and physical bondage of the reserves?

ET hits the right note, as far as I'm concerned. Slavery in the past, and especially today, is farther reaching than whites on blacks. Doesn't matter though; all that counts is making sure white Anglo-Saxons develop a healthy self-hatred for the sins of their ancestors.

Jeff Davidson..how many blacks were lynched in Canada compared to the United States?

Different conditions, different circumstances

Apples and boots...

I agree about a lack of personal guilt, but it is interesting that there *were* black slaves in what is now Canada until the British parliament freed all slaves in the British Empire in 1833.

For some discussion of this see, for example:
http://www.mcmaster.ca/mjtm/1-5.htm

St. Georges Church in Halifax once had a "slaves gallery" above the second gallery that is now there.

just how much cotton did those old scottish woolen mills use?

sorry, the only guilt I feel about slavery is not having the opportunity to repatriate all these former slaves (hmmm ... when was slavery abolished? I thought it was over 140 years ago) back to Africa. I'm STILL willing to donate to one way tickets in exchange for giving up any claim on citizenship! And I think that's going way beyond, since nobody in my heritage ever participated in slavery, and nobody I know ever was a slave. Except those of us forced to pay taxes to support useless welfare queens.

And as far as "real guilt" over the poor, poor pitiful natives and their plight on the reservation ... well, I lived in Inuvik for 3 years and saw what life was like for them. All I have to say is that I agree we are guilty for their current way of life. We need to stop enabling them and force them to become full citizens of the country. We need to stop coddling them - providing housing, food, education, health care and anything else provided by taxes ... until they get off their fat, lazy, useless a$$es and become citizens and not wards of the state.

Slavery still exists as a lucerative enterprise in most of the world, but we don't talk about it because it is not driven and patronized by "white people" these days.

I empathize with Kate's position, it's 2008 time for historical victim groups to take ownership of their own problems and welfare...it's your problem not mine, and no amount of historic revisionist crap can tweek even a modicum of "guilt" in me.

The only thing I feel "guilt" over is allowing over indulgent minority self-pity to become such a strain on the national budget and political agenda.

"I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin’ ’don’t blame me’
They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
Spend all their time feelin’ sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma’s too thin; your daddy’s too fat

Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin’ and cryin’ and pitchin’ a fit
Get over it, get over it"

(Don Henley)

If I chose to be a bleeding heart I'd have to imagine looking at my fellow man with " I'm developmentally challenged because of historical events" printed on a large sign hung around their neck.
Instead I chose to believe everyone is capable of making something of themselves and carrying their burdens.
So if people like Jeff have a point to make please by all means get those you sulk over to start wearing a sign, so I'll know who's actually retarded enough, to not make it in life, then maybe I'll give a s---.

Actually, I do feel anger and resentment...

At Kate here for stealing my Biggest Racist Blogger in Canada 2008 Award!

I'm a victim. You owe me. :-)

As for natives: we gave them alcohol, but they gave us cigarettes. I call it even.

The biggest slave owners in Canada were the Indians.

... It was a reality amongst the Greeks and Romans ...

At Ephesus there's a communal WC consisting of a long smooth granite slab with holes in it. Our guide told us that a man would have his slave sit on it first to warm it up.

Jeff, Those Scottish Mills were death traps for the workers who were forced to work long long hours for next to nothing.The life of an 8 or 9 year old child was often cut short from having to climb into moving machinery to clean out excess cotton.
It was a handful of Mill owners and poorly paid "slave" workers.
During the clearances the land owners found that sheep on the land was more profitable than having "people" working and living on the land.This resulted in an exodus to the new land.In many cases they came with just the clothes on their backs, many died en route.In all of this it was the rich land owners and gentry who dictated what kind of life those people had.Many nationalities have come to North American in similar circumstances why should the descendants of those former "slaves/serfs" be responsible for the actions of a small group of rich folk?

gussie, yea, conflicted, moi too. i still want my share of scotland back anyway. pete in midland. i'm not guilty nor do i feel any guilt.

All of you should feel guilty, because you stole all your stuff from us...

Give me back my mathematics, my philosophy, and my homosexuality (granted, we probably didn't invent the last one, just refined it)

More racist historical revisionism to placate the perpetual victim claim.

How is this relevant to blacks in Canada? Even America was only responsible for an estimated 5% of the Atlantic black slave trade. Even these slaves were entirely captured and sold by their black and Muslim masters.

As well, slavery is colour blind.

The Irish were enslaved as well, sent to work the fields in the Carribean and elsewhere.

As has already been noted, it is well understood, factually accepted and historically established that the Barbary Muslims enslaved 1.25 million white Europeans between the 17th and early 19th centuries. They raided coastal villages, wiping out many. They raided as far north as Iceland.

The Ottoman's enslaved millions of white Christians throughout the Slavic (slave) nations. While the females were kept as sex slaves in harems, etc., most of the males became the Janissaries. The Ottoman slave army.

"ABOUT four years ago CNNs Larry King, on Larry King Live, interviewed Louis Farrakhan, head of The Nation of Islam. King asked Farrakhan why he advises Christian Afro-Americans to turn from Christianity to Islam.
Fharrakan replied that Christianity is the religion of those who enslaved
Africans. Islam, he said, has always championed the black race, and thus
deserves the loyalty of Afro-Americans."

A typical Islamic lie.

The Muslim liar (a bit redundant) notes that it was because of Christianity.

Although the Hebrew Bible provided for slavery for criminals and insolvent debtors, kidnapping and enslaving law-abiding people incurred the death penalty.

Exodus 21:16 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death."

The New Testament expressly forbids both the slave trade and slavery itself.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 "....the Law is made not for the righteous but for Law breakers....for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers."

It is estimated that possibly as many as 11 million Africans were transported across the Atlantic (95% of which went to South and Central America, mainly to Portuguese, Spanish and French possessions. Only 5% of the slaves went to the United States, as noted).

During the same period, however, at least 28 million Africans were enslaved in the Muslim Middle East. Since at least 80% of those captured by Muslim slave traders were calculated to have died before reaching the slave markets, it is believed that the death toll from
1400 years of Muslim slave raids into Africa could have been over 112 million. When added to the number of those sold in the slave markets, the total number of African victims of the Trans Saharan and East African slave trade could be significantly higher than 140 million people.

Nearly 100 years after President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in America, and 130 years after all slaves within the British Empire were set free by parliamentary decree, Saudi Arabia and Yemen, in 1962, and Mauritania in 1980, begrudgingly removed legalised slavery from their statute books. And this only after international pressure was brought to bear. Today numerous international organisations document that slavery still continues in some Muslim countries.

Ronald Segal in "Islam's Black Slaves" documents: "Female slaves were required in considerable numbers as musicians, singers and dancers....many more were bought for domestic workers....and many were in demand as concubines (RAPE). The harems of rulers could be enormous. The harem of Abdal Rahman III (912 - 961) in Cordoba contained over 6000 concubines. The one in the Fatimid Palace in Cairo had twice as many."

The birth of Islam and its conquests, brought about the birth of institutionalized, sytematized, and the religiously sanctioned slave trade on a massive and global scale. The Islamic trilogy is chaulk full of verses proving and sanctioning slavery, too numerous to list here.

This trade is still being conducted in Sudan, and elsewhere. And may be the financial basis for the underground sex slavery rampant throughout the world today.

A Muslim couple living in Colorado, was arrested, charged and convicted on slavery charges last year.

The Arabic word for 'black' and 'slave' is the same - 'abd' (plural, abeed) - still used to this day.

Uninformed, irrational idiots like leftard Jeff, contribute to these attrocities by spreading ignorance and lies. This is unforgiveable.

Don't get me started about Gnunk from Cave 23 and what he did to my ancestor Ungh! It still brings a tear to my eye today.

Jeffie Davidson, um, have you never heard of ...wool? That's what Scots textile mills wove, not cotton. So much for your "connection".

Leaving aside the fact that one cannot be held to account for something done before your grandfather was even thought of.

Leaving aside the fact that by your logic, anyone who participated even faintly in commerce since the 1600's was a "slaver".

This kind of thinking assumes a collection of humans to be a thing in and of itself, with rights and responsibilities of its own, which reach back before anyone in the group was born and continue on long after they die. Typical of the Logic Of Convenience Jeffie comes up with all the time to support whatever idiot notion he's banging on about that day.

Jeffie, some of my ancestors no doubt rode with Bonny Prince Charlie, or had relatives who did. Where's my reparations for Culoden, eh? Where's my right of return? Surely there's ten square feet of heather out there with my name on it!

Eeyore... good one. :-D

Careful....guilt is one of the most powerful tools the progressives use to beat us with. If the majority of us average Canadians ever stop believing that we are responsible for the sins of our ancestors then anything could happen. Insisting on job promotion by merit, no more rights without responsibility, rebelling against political correctness, refusing to pay for Kyoto money transfers....the horrors. It could lead to an anarchy of liberation from government and special interest groups.

Yeah how about some more "truth", such as the massive slave trade to the Muslim world. It's something that just isn't taught or discussed anywhere in the public education system, despite the fact it coexisted or even pre-dated the importation of black Africans to the New World, and was at least as large in scale.
Another point: you never saw jazz, cajun & creole culture, blues or any other remnant/offspring of black culture develop in the Middle East, did we? The Arabs were such savage masters, no trace of the Africans in their midst remains to this day.

And oh yeah.... how I lament my lost pre-Roman, northern European pagan heritage and territories! Oh, how my forefathers suffered (and they undoubtedly did)! Now give me money, a get-out-of-jail-free pass and a couple white ho's and nobody gets hurt!!!

When my uncivilized European ancestors were roaming the dark forest of Europe wearing animal skins for clothing, the Nubians and the Nubians who conquered Egypt were big into human slavery. I wonder if this will be thought in their Afro centric schools.

Though treated poorly, I am not feeling guilt for the Komagata Maru (it was 1914 for pete's sake)incident, either. Nor the head tax on Chinese immigrants.

Re: replacing black references with white - Posted by: Dennis at February 5, 2008 11:44 AM

eg: "I am very grateful that white students in Little Rock may soon have the option of attending Eurocentric schools...." That sure does put the truth to the matter.

Treating everyone equally, without regard to race, is, once again, trumped by clearly racist policies and ideas, in the name of fighting racism.

my gypsy ancestors were treated as bad , or worst then any "slave"!!!!

I will now set up a paypal account

start paying you sinners!!!!!!!!!

Well, if my ancestors had been captured and brought over as slaves, maybe the Nazis wouldn't have sent most of them to the gas chambers? It's pretty hard to feel much guilt for something that a bunch of poor German and Polish Jews had nothing to do with. Likewise the Greek Peasants on my mom's side. As for FNG (First Nations Guilt) - I had my fill of that in Law School, from the enforced seminars on white guilt taugh by the barely literate (rascist bastards, assuming that all white people are the same) to the admission to law school of "students" who were not qualified to enter English 101 at a commnity college.

"ABOUT four years ago CNNs Larry King, on Larry King Live, interviewed Louis Farrakhan, head of The Nation of Islam. King asked Farrakhan why he advises Christian Afro-Americans to turn from Christianity to Islam.
Fharrakan replied that Christianity is the religion of those who enslaved Africans. Islam, he said, has always championed the black race, and thus
deserves the loyalty of Afro-Americans."

North Americans and Europeans didn't send raiding parties to Africa to raid and capture local African tribesmen, that was done by Arab muslim slave traders, who then sold them to Europeans and North Americans. It was Christianity that freed the slaves, Arab muslims enslaved them.

McGuinty is sweating. He's calling on citizens to write their MP's.

Heh. He won against Tory's religious school funding platform, which may take place anyhow under his government.

Another lie. Just like the 'won't raise taxes' lie from the previous election.

Here we go again with more revised and dishonest history. No group, colour or "race" can claim never to have done anything harmful to others just as none can claim the opposite. Slavery was not invented by Europeans and it was the Whites of European ancestry who first declared it wrong and put a stop to it within their own countries. The Arab Muslims continued keeping slaves and they still do. Funny how the Muslims practised slavery prior to the Europeans and yet no claim is for restitution is made against them. Christianity is blamed while Islam is absolved.

Restitution only makes sense when it is made to the actual victims of whatever. Otherwise it is just one more financial shake-down in the name of leftist ideology.

If Africa had more Afro centric studies, the machete killing hack fests might never have happened in countries like Rwanda or Kenya.

It's been implied several times but let me say this plainly;

I am not guilty of the sins of my ancestors.

Neither is anyone else.

Send in the grief councillors quickly to the hog town star, it's the liberal way, makes everyone from Dion right down to Dave{i hate Alberta} Taylor feel much better. Some grief counciling and soothing guitar strains of Michael rowed the boat ashore after dumping PMSH overboard should have them all back to self loathing instead of loathing someone who is paying their salarys indirectly. Pathetic losers these liberals are .

Why aren't Jews proposing "slavery reparations" from today's Egyptians? Too busy winning Nobel Prizes I guess...

Wouldn't it be great if people could speak this frankly around water coolers instead of just on internet forums like this one?

We could write volumes here about the "white man's guilt" but we don't need to as most of us understand that Westen Society as a whole is the preferred lifestyle of the whole world. (I don't need to provide examples for all the trolls that will request them.) What we need to write volumes about is, how is it that in this society we are constantly put upon by the left leaning liberals to feel guilt for giving the world the standard of living that we have today? If we had adopted a "white supremist ideology" and refused to share our culture many years ago then most of the world today would still be living in tents or caves and cooking over dung fires. So any leftoids looking for a collective "mea culpa" from the commenters on this site can give their heads a shake.

There were many white slaves in Europe but they called it indentured servitude. These included the Scots working the mines and fields. They were a caste below serfs and were treated like the slaves they were.

And didn't the underground railway lead to Windsor?

We have f*** all to apologise for. This is an excuse by black people (and stupid white leftards) to blame others for their poor behaviour and failure. If your people haven't been slaves for 7-10 generations and you're still whining, you're not a victim - you're a loser.

This is above and beyond the FACT that most black citizens of Canada immigrated here by choice and have NEVER been slaves. There are millions of immigrants (and their descendants) who came here directly from Africa. Many more from the Caribbean who, although descended from slaves, were not slaves by Canadians and chose to come here instead of either staying put or returning to Africa. If Canadian society is so bad they wouldn't be here. They CHOSE here. So whining is empty and blaming the people who welcomed you into the country for your failure and your poor choices and behaviour is pathetic.

And as usual Jeff, your logic is a slim. How about this: Today (not 200 years ago but today) most cocoa is made in the Ivory Coast. That crop is farmed by slave labour. That slave labour is Arab Muslims of the Sudan selling Black Sudanese (both Christian and Muslims) to the Cocoa plantations in the Ivory Coast.

So the last time you ate a chocolate bar, you engaged in slavery. Yes, Jeff, you are a slave-trade supporter. Not your ancestor - YOU. Feel guilty? Think it's your fault? Well go on over and do something about it.

The barberry coast pirates took many a white European as slaves (estimates are between 500,000 and 2,000,000 Europeans.) It happened for centuries.

We seem to have gotten over it. There are not too many Europeans or their descendants who are crying that they wouldn't be useless failures if great-great-great-great-granddad hadn't been snatched of a dock in Genoa.

Natives and Black competing for Canadian sympathy, recognition and...money. Ughh!!!

I have no guilt from the treatment of either - it's past history. I come from a german background where my immigrant ancestors broke the prairie ground with their bare hands to make themselves a life (albeit a tough one, one rock at a time). If these self proclaimed perpetual victims want as individuals want a better life then the first step is to give up victimhood and the second is to use the hands and mind that god gave them.

If they can't stop reaching the hand out for special treatment then they can shoulder a large part of the blame for allowing racial discrimination to continue (and perhaps grow) within Canada. If they don't want to be second class citizens then don't separate into special socially dependent enclaves. Instead, integrate and contribute to build a greater society for everyone. Be real Canadians.

I expect no special treatment from crimes committed against my own ancestors and I have no patience for those that do.

I wonder if the Tutsis will get compensation from the Hutus? Or non-Kikuyu's from the Kikuyu's? Probably not and that's how it should be.

My ancestors come from both Lords and Serfs. I guess I'll just sit here and feel conflicted.

BTW Irwin Daisy, Thank you for your very educational posts. I always learn so much from them and look forward to more.

I have a questions for those who want me to feel white guilt,

If I do feel the white guilt, and I have it so bad that I can not sleep, I am depressed, it affects my health, I can not work and can not function as a normal person,

then do you agree the government should send me money every month to help me cope with my white guilt syndrome?

I propose the creation of a new special day of recognition.
It will be called "Self Loathing White Liberal" day and I'd like to also start a custom for that day.

All self loathing white LIberals will be offered a slap in the head and a boot in the ass.

How about we have a "ship to nowhere day" where people who think our society sucks can chose where they'd rather be then go there - white leftards especially.

Or even better, we'd do the chosing for them - they're too stupid to make these kinds of decisions.

"We're not responsible for slavery, according to the G&M we're responsible for aboriginal alcoholism"

Speaking as an alkie with nearly 16 years of clean living on my record now, I'd like to state that the only person responsible for my alcoholism is me. My drinking was my fault and mine alone, and it was my responsibility to seek help for it. Which I did.

There are plenty of 12-step meetings, both on reserve and off, and people of all colours and cultures are welcome to attend and share with the others there.

lemme see if I understand this...

A certain group of people believe/assert that "blacks" and "whites" are different...that how one is treated should depend on skin colour. The same group, oddly enough, appears to believe in universality so strongly as to make it an artilce of law.

So, this group supports schools for blacks only? Clearly, then, all blacks must attend segregated schools...

"Slavery, Christianity and Islam" by Robert Spencer

firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=962

White males of northern European ancestry didn't need slaves - they had wives.

I demand Restitution!! Throughout the millenia my Dutch ancestors have been ruled by the Huns, the Romans, the Britain's, the Spanish, the French and the Germans. Where do I sign up for the gravy train??

White folks engaged in slavery for approximately 300 years. Muslims have been engaging in slavery for over 1400 years right up to today. Why is no one going after them?

Fritz,

If you were married, you'd know you have it backwards.

Okay, let's just say for a second we buy into this -- for everyone. So; we've given you (whoever "you" happen to be) all your "rights". We've paid you "reparations" for all the injustices done to your ancestors. We've "compensated" you for all the land "we" stole from "you" (never mind that you stole it from whoever was sitting on it before you came along). So, you've got your compensation, you've got your reparations, you've got your rights. Now let's say it's seven o'clock in the morning the following day; the alarm goes off (assuming you can even be bothered to set an alarm). Exactly what is it that you're going to do differently? -- speak to your financial adviser about your investments? Start school to get that MBA you always wanted? Get back together with the mother of your children? (I know, which child and which mother?) Attend an AA meeting? Start working? Move to Alberta to work as a rig hand? Or sit on your arse whining and complaining, avoiding education, drinking to excess, screwing around, squandering your cheques from whatever source, and generally carrying on in the same old dysfunctional way that put you in your mess in the first place?

DrD,

The really amazing this about all this talk of compensation is that in the case of our "natives," we've actually paid for the whole of Canada a few million times over.

The USA only paid Russia $7.2million for all Alaska for christ sakes and it didn't come with a bunch of whining Russians! We send the "natives" $10 billion a year, free everything and land to boot!

I'll never wear cotton or wool again. I'd eat haggis, but haven't the guts.

"White males of northern European ancestry didn't need slaves - they had wives."

A guaranteed remedy for all guilted out white Liberals.

How to tie a noose: realknots.com/knots/noose.htm

"So, this group supports schools for blacks only? Clearly, then, all blacks must attend segregated schools..."

Yes, but will those be residential schools? 'Cuz I need to know.

The best and surest way to provide reparations for everybody's* past "misdeeds" is not to repeat them.

* And I do mean everybody.

First Neandrathal man needs to write a cheque to Australiopithicus. A good time later all the Mohawks have to write a check to the Cree, cause we're gonna do this chronologically.

Let me know when it's my turn.

Disclaimer
My spelling is bad because my ancestors were victimized at the single cell level of evolution by one of those two cell son of a &@*$&'s.

When will the Chipewyan pay reparations to the Inuit for the Massacre at Bloody Falls (that they don't teach in Canadian schools)?

"Bloody Falls are rapids located about 15 km above the mouth of the COPPERMINE RIVER in the central Arctic. The falls were named by European explorer Samuel HEARNE in 1771, after he witnessed the massacre of local INUIT by a group of CHIPEWYAN travelling with his expedition.
...
At Bloody Falls, archaeologists discovered traces of Inuit occupation dating to about 1500 AD. The area was also occupied previously by Paleoeskimos around 1300 BC, and by Indian caribou hunters between roughly 500 BC and 500 AD. For more than 3000 years, this place probably marked a zone of tension between First Nations and Inuit cultures."

How do you think Great Slave Lake (and the Slavey language) got its name? If you guessed "Some Indians took some other Indians as slaves" then give yourself a prize.

The UN should make an award to the British for making slavery illegal for the first time in hsitory, and doing something about it - like ending it.

A settlement of a historical wrong is proposed. There is a cost. Is it a finite cost? What is that cost? How can anyone be expected to accept payment in settlement when the amount of the damages is not finite and articulated? So let's hear the figure.

I sold two slaves
and they sold two slaves
and so on and so on.

I could write a damn slave commercial.

Some of us are Slaves to Love.

Dr.D nails it. Why get off of your ass when in the Age of the Liberals you have a trust fund into perpetuity for just being a descendant of a footnote in history.

It's amusing the racial mix threshold that is accepted for tribal benefits here in the US with some tribes in the east requiring only 1/64 blood quantum as qualification for tribal membership ranging for the Navajos with 1/4.

Donald Trump once quipped regarding eastern Native American casinos and their tax breaks that he was frozen out of something to the effect that the farce was that most of them were blue eyes.

Pathetic, isn't it.

.There is another unspoken reason why even the mention of this topic, or rather its explicit
public mention, draws such negative reactions. The establishment, in order to manipulate
public opinion, has succeeded in reducing discussions of race relations to a ritual, a ritual
for which the high priests of the media and political elite have written the ceremonial script.
Nothing outside the ceremonial script is tolerated; all else is heresy. The establishment
has succeeded in manipulating the minds of most Americans to the point that racism
means white racism exclusively. Black racism simply does not exist in establishment
mythology, and any assertion that it does is immediately denounced by shrill accusations
of racism. In fact, by the concoction of the racist euphemism affirmative action, the
establishment has succeeded in painting black racism as beautiful, rather like putting a
dress on a pig.

outstanding comment Kate!
Speaking of Scots, why can't the English feel a little more guilty about us? Maybe, because the Scots took great advantage of the prosperity of the British Empire.
While we are at it - why can't the Arabs feel guilty?

Jeffie Davidson, um, have you never heard of ...wool? That's what Scots textile mills wove, not cotton. So much for your "connection".

well phantom, if you knew anything at all about scotland, you would understand that the cotton famine of the 1860's had a direct impact on mill towns like paisley that produced cotton thread by the mile.

you're bogus attachement to the place seems limited to cliches and stereotypes. not surprising considering the source.

btw, you might consider my surname for a moment. i can promise you i've spent far more time in scotland and understand more of her people and history than you.

i don't recall reading much about the phantom clan...

As for the need to teach the truth about slavery in Canadian schools I ask, At what time was there slavery in Canada (1867 and beyond)? After all Canada was the terminus of the underground railway. As for the need to feel responsible or ashamed for a Canadian slave trade that didn't exist. How can I be held responsible for a 200 year old crime that wasn't committed, by someone who I may or may not be related to, When we barely hold criminals responsible for the crimes they themselves commit today?

I seen a black politician on fox a while back who thought he should thank god for the slave trade. Otherwise he would be living in africa today. Yikes!!!

My ancestors didn't arrive in the US until 1906. Before that they were picking rocks out of their potato patch in County Kerry. (And by the way, we were a sept of the Fitzgeralds back in the day. When am I going to get my castle back?)

The argument you hear in response to that is that white people all still benefit from the fruits of slave labor--even people who weren't here pre-Civil War. In fact, I was just treated to an elegant disquisition on the bus the other day about how white people in this country would still be running around dragging their knuckles on the ground if it weren't for blacks. I'm sorry I didn't have a chance to ask this woman to elaborate or to rebut the idea that the county was built by European and Asian immigrants. I'm sure she would have had a calm and rational response which wouldn't at all have involved calling me a variety of obscene names describing my race and gender. Because, of course, whites are the only racists.

The whole reparations nonsense is just a scam from the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. It's completely meaningless.

And as far as Native Americans are concerned, the same principles apply as they do to everyone. Poverty is a terrible grind, and facing discrimination is devasting. But if someone gets pregnant at 14 and drinks or uses throughout the pregnancy, and both parents neglect nutrition and education, and fail to give any guidance or protection, then their kid's life is going to suck. No government program is going to not make it not suck. I'm so sick of the same stupid argument. You can't condone destructive behavior in your own community as being part of "the culture" and then turn around and scream that your community and culture are being destroyed. And at some point, certain people have to at least mull over the possibility that what others feel toward them is not blanket racism toward the whole group. It's a specific dislike of them based on their own behavior and attitudes.

Wow!

People here talking about sending black people back to Africa. Another poster talks about Native people being 'lazy and useless'.

On another thread David Suzuki is called a 'nip'. The owner of the site talks of a 'school-to-jail pipeline' for black people.

You guys sound like embittered Klansmen commiserating in a Tim Horton's because they're not allowed to march down Main St.

This is exactly the stuff - along with the 5 Feet of Fury site - that the HRC has a mandate to prosecute and shut down.

It can't happen soon enough for me.

Nobody is forced to read the posts on this website.
At the age of 15 years I had an ingrowing abscess on the shoulderbone. I had a major operation and four minors. I was told that three years early an amputation would have been high up on the arm. Forty years earlier, most likely my demise. I survived ok and was classified fit for serving in the British Army(nothing fancy mind you).
Penicillin is the operative word. Sir Alexander Fleming. (Scotsman).
Then there is the Salk vaccine for polio.
Now throw in Dr Banting for diabetes insulin.
I wonder how many persons striving to eradicate or stem the ravages of AIDS happen to be plain old whitey?
Toronto Star- just damn.

Wow, volik, we failed to submit our posts to the volik censor before we posted. So damn sorry.

So, do what you got to do, buddy. Send the whole darn link if you will to the HRC.

Bummer. I'll have to spend money on a tribunal outfit.

Re: volik

You are taking some comments out of context. And regarding the "school to jail pipeline" comment, Kate is quoting a supporter of the Afrocentric school idea, as in:

"Longtime community leader Murphy Browne said she was alarmed at the high number of youth being "pushed out" of school by a European-centred system, who then get "caught up in the school-to-jail pipeline."

There are indeed some posters here that cross the line as far as I'm concerned, but one of the things I appreciate about this site is that people are allowed the latitude to speak their mind, without the politically correct thought police jumping all over them.

When I disagree with someone, I try to make my argument using reason, rather than resorting to government agencies to silence them. That smacks of fascism and is reminiscent of many of the governments/countries I most abhor.

"All self loathing white LIberals will be offered a slap in the head and a boot in the ass."
Posted by: OMMAG at February 5, 2008 2:56 PM

Good idea OMMAG. Do you think there are enough of the rest of us to do it to all of them in just a single day?

goigdskgkd ffkakf[,

Is there a hidden meaning behind the name goigdskgkd ffkakf[ ?

I do not mean you no disrespect, I am just curious

volic; you and your like are the most despicable people that I have had the misfortune to come across.I dont know if you realize how easy our right to free discussion can be taken away.You or your teachers must have been educated in a communist country or another haven of anti free speach.Even Canada has the start of a restrictive speach agency called the CHRC that can charge people outside the protection of the court system.Make outlandish charges against a person in court,lose,and YOU will pay.Do it at the CHRC and the accused pays even if they are exonerated.Dictatorships do this as a way to cower their citizens.THe SOB's that set up the CHRC knew this when they did it.If you dont believe me,ask someone thats been down the road.

Affirmative action helped me get my role in 007.

Never bring a knife to a gunfight.

Fight on Volik.

These twisted kattys-i mean kittys need to look into the mirror at their hate filled thoughts.

Who would jesus bomb?You bible thumpin neo-cons.

Why do canadian tax payers have to pay for all the sodamizing those priests did to the natives?

Why doesnt the church?

And islam is so bad?

For what it's worth:
a. 1777- Vermont Constitution forbids adult slavery, Mass in 1783;
b. 1793- Upper Canada "Act against Slavery";
c. 1803- "Slavery not compatible with British Law", Chief Justice Osgoode;
d. 1807- UK Slave trade illegal;
e. 1834- UK Slavery illegal.

Cheers

Well, Jimbo

The ol' 'political correct thought police' cliche is a bit mouldy by this time.

It's used mostly by people complaining they can't talk trash about black people, asians, and Natives anymore like in the good old days.

Strange as it may seem, there are many Canadians who have a right to live unmolested by the hate spouted by many here.

Have you ever known base racism to listen to reason?

I've never owned a slave but i had a very kinky lady friend a few years ago.And I feel no guilt.

"I am very grateful that black students in Toronto may soon have the option of attending Africentric schools." - Donna Bailey

I don't see a downside to this. What harm is there in putting social engineering under a microscope? Can't wait to see what the unintended consequences are.

Push ... push hard.

Jeff D: "scottish mill workers made cotton thread that was sold world-wide. many lost their jobs during the american civil war due to the cotton famine, a shortage created by confederate states in order to draw england and france into the civil war on the south's behalf."

Um, the effective Union blockade of southern ports might have had something to do with this. Plus, with most able-bodied men up in Virgina fighting for the Confederacy, there weren't that many independent farmers able to produce cotton. Finally, the Confederate Congress implored cotton planters to reduce cotton planting, and plant food instead to feed the South and the army. From http://www.civilwarhome.com/kingcotton.htm:

"But even with resistance by the planters, the shift to the production of foodstuffs combined with the drain in manpower and the eventual Union occupation created a drastic drop in Cotton production as the war dragged on: 4.5 million bales were grown in 1861; 1.5 million in 1862; 500,000 in 1863; and only 300,000 in 1864."

But you're a lefty, Jeffy, so I don't expect you'll let the facts get in the way of your argument.

Ouu, look at the cry babies!

{ snif, snif, I'm hurt and you're gonna pay!!! And I'm gonna call you names too!!! }

Could it be that, I KNOW I am solely responsible for my feelings? Or that I know factual history NOT revisionist ward churchill type teachings?

Islam a cult not a religion.
Any doctrine that dictates that a person must be killed because they choose to leave, is in a cult.
Period.

I despise Islamic practices, so what? I hate rapists, murderers and wife beaters, child killers, pedophiles, and violent criminals, and that maybe gives you the right to call me a bigot, not a racist, man people are so stupid.

I love being a neo-con -what ever that means!
I will now wear it proudly.

Infidel and Kafir forever!

Oh yeah, another thing I hate about Islam:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/05/wiran205.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox
H/T cjunk, commenter Dave.

Two sisters are sentenced to be STONED TO DEATH for being in the company of a unmarried and unrelated male in public.
.. and the babies cry: 'is Islam so bad'?

... good friggin grief!

DrD -- there was a recent settlement with our native brothers of the Tsawwassen band, which was reported in the local paper. It included $ and land, and the map printed in the paper had a whole block set aside and labelled "for future treaty negotiations". If anyone thinks ANY of these 'settlements" are full and final, they are mistaken. Only leads credence to your arguement...

I, myself, was a slave. A slave to the capitalist machine. I'm no longer indentured, but oddly, still have most my teeth. Presently by choice I'm slave to my own whim, and that's a lot better than being slave to a lack of imagination.

I found this post brilliant. I intend to use this reverse argument about slavelessness, (a concept spellcheck rejects) if only to enjoy the fireworks.

Strange as it may seem, there are many Canadians who have a right to live unmolested by the hate spouted by many here.

volik - no. There were no words inciting imminent harm to anyone or group in these comments, a very important free speech distinction. There were words that criticized the attitudes or behavior of others.

There are no Canadians that have a right to never be criticized or offended.

It's cheap and easy to label people racists for opinions that you don't like, but, it won't be working for you here. You are an example of the little fascist narcisisstic bore that feels compelled to manage the thoughts and behavior of others. If you feel "molested" by my opinion, then, scurry as fast as you can to the HRC.

Cantuc said,

I've never owned a slave but i had a very kinky lady friend a few years ago.And I feel no guilt.

And I say thank you Cantuc, I needed to laugh!

gosh, Vokim, here's an idea for you: instead of just accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being racist and practicing "hate speech", try putting forth an argument showing they're wrong.
"Racist" and "Hate Speech" are the rallying cries of the braindead - who have trouble putting two thoughts together to contribute to a debate.
I'll consider, carefully, accusations of racism and un-pc speech when the terms become universally applied, and not just to those who actually pay taxes and support society.

Actually Penny -

The HRC outlaws expressions of hate towards any persons for reasons which make them identifiable as a group prone to discrimation.

Such as: saying black people need to go back to Africa becasuse they're black, saying Natives are "lazy and useless' simply because they're Natives, and ...well, you get the idea.

These words don't criticize the 'attitudes and behaviours of others'. They're nasty, hateful expressions of racism by people who don't have the guts to say them in public (as K. Shaidle noted "Wouldn't it be great if we could say this stuff at the water cooler and not have to come here to say it?" By all means - try it at the water cooler. Love to see the results!)

Sorry Pete -

It really isn't up for argument that racism is a wrong and destructive thing. You don't 'argue' with racists, Nazis, Klansmen. You prosecute them.

As well, it isn't 'braindead' to point out that someone who calls Davis Suzuki a nip is a racist. It's simply an observation of objective fact.

Wouldn't it have been nice to get the Nazis when they were still meeting in beer halls to trade their vile thoughts?

It's time to shut down the beer halls.

Ah, I see Mr. Davidson returned my comment. Good of you Jeffie. If I may take your points in order:

"well phantom, if you knew anything at all about scotland, you would understand that the cotton famine of the 1860's had a direct impact on mill towns like paisley that produced cotton thread by the mile."

I will freely admit my knowledge of the Old Country is not all it could be. That would be because after three generations in Canada on one side and five on the other, the doings of people long dead back there don't have much impact on me. My history is Canadian. Possibly you are right about the cotton famine. Unfortunately for your slavery theory half of my family comes from Glasgow after WWI (ship building), the other comes from the far Highlands which were sheep country. Nice try though.

By the by, wouldn't Scots losing their jobs and having to move to the howling wilderness that was Canada in the 1860s make them a victim group? I repeat, where's my ten square feet of heather?

"You're bogus attachement to the place seems limited to cliches and stereotypes. not surprising considering the source."

My attachments to Scotland by blood and culture are FAR more recent and solid than any of these put-upon African slave descendants being discussed by slavery reparations hucksters. I'm pure blood on both sides, I learned how to be a man by watching my elders, quite a few of whom were fresh off the boat. Which only amplifies the stupidity of the reparations theory and your position.

"btw, you might consider my surname for a moment. i can promise you i've spent far more time in scotland and understand more of her people and history than you."

That's quite a statement Jeffie, given that you have no freakin' idea who I am or where I've been. However since there appear to be a large number of Leftist retards infesting Scotland lately, and since I've never been there, what you say is possible. Please note that knowledge of African history and visiting Africa are not prerequisite for joining the slavery victim group. Again amplifying the vacuity of your position.

"i don't recall reading much about the phantom clan..."

That's because I don't trust you, Jeffie. Statements from yourself, Morningstar, Volik indicate that you have no tolerance for views which differ from your own even slightly. You're vindictive too.

I have found this to be true of Lefties generally, so for my own personal and professional safety I remain The Phantom in these discussions. I note that you feel perfectly safe making snide comments to this collection of racist/bigot/homophobe/rednecks under your real name. You might want to think a little bit about what this means regarding your personal behavior and that of your fellow travelers, vs. the knuckle dragging rest of us.

Please go and consider what I have said, then think about the word "freedom" and how it applies to same. For example, is there any freedom if government can reach back through time to ancient wrongs against single racial groups and send you a bill? Is there any freedom if individuals have to post under false names for fear of government retribution?

Morningstar just hates hateful neocons.

What a hypocritical idiot.

Who would Jesus bomb? Nobody you moron. You need to get your stupid unstuck.

So many letter writers have explained how this land is made up of immigrants. Maybe we should turn to our history books and point out to people why today's Canadian is not willing to accept the new kind of immigrant any longer.

Back in 1900 when there was a rush from all areas of Europe to come to Canada, people had to get off a ship and stand in a long line in Halifax and be documented. Some would even get down on their hands and knees and kiss the ground. They made a pledge to uphold the laws and support their new country in good and bad times. They made learning English a primary rule in their new Canadian households and some even changed their names to blend in with their new home. They had waved good bye to their birth place to give their children a new life and did everything in their power to help their children assimilate into one culture. Nothing was handed to them. No free lunches, no welfare, no labor laws to protect them. All they had were the skills, craftsmanship and desire they had brought with them to trade for a future of prosperity.

Most of their children came of age when World War II broke out. Canadians fought along side men whose parents had come straight over from Germany, Italy, France, Japan, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Sweden, and so many other places. None of these first generation Canadians ever gave any thought about what country their parents had come from. They were Canadians
fighting Hitler, Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan. They were defending the Freedom as one people. When we liberated France, no one in those villages was looking for the Ukrainian-Canadian or the German-Canadian or the Irish-Canadian. The people of France saw only Canadians and we carried one flag that represented our country. Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country's flag and waving it to represent who they were. It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here. These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be a Canadian.

And here we are in 2007 with a new kind of immigrant who wants the same rights and privileges. Only they want to achieve it by
playing with a different set of rules, one that includes a Canadian passport and a guarantee of being faithful to their mother country. I'm sorry, that's not what being a Canadian all is about. They should ADOPT our country, and our flag and our morals and our customs. Leave their wars, hatred, and divisions behind. I believe that the immigrants who landed in Canada in the early 1900s deserve better than that for the toil, hard work and sacrifice those legally searching for a better life. I think they would be appalled that they are being used as an example by those waving foreign country flags, fighting foreign battles on our soil, making Canadians change to suit their religions and cultures, and wanting to change our countries fabric by claiming discrimination when we do not give in to their demands. Its about time we get real and stand up for our forefathers rights we are CANADIAN Lest we forget it!!! NO MORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS ! NO More not saying CHRISTMAS In stores and our schools, Seasonal Holiday be damn

ed!!! I Want my Canada of birth BACK !!!

Why should anyone,at the time, go after the Nazis in the beer halls when the murder of thousands of Ukrainians by Stalin was being ignored? The starvation of a whole population had gone on since 1919 and no one did anything about it.When Mr. Suzuki advocates jailing scientists for an opposing view THAT sounds like something vile coming out of a beer hall!

Volik, nice of you to prove my point so beautifully while I was writing the last post to Mr. Davidson. You personify the reason I remain The Phantom. Congratulations, you are the perfect embodiment of the term Useful Idiot.

Where's my ten square feet of heather, Idiot?

Volik, Morningstar

I am offended by your statements. Although not a Christian myself, the HRC takes complaints from unrelated third parties so I demand that the brownshirt HRC thugs use the coercive power of the state and place its jackboot on your throat to crush your rights.

If you laugh and think that the HRC would never do that, what happens when someone puts radical Christians on the committees and they change the game?

What can by used by you to crush the rights of others can by used on you against your rights. Don't ever think that your lot will control the state forever. If you won't respect fundamental liberties, the constitution, charter of rights and the unbiased rule of law, you will have no cause to complain when they come for you.

That's the part you are far too f'ing stupid to understand. You don't support the rights of others because you like them, you support the rights of others to protect the rights of you and yours.

Too bad you don't have the intellectual capacity to comprehend the obvious. No one should even have to explain this to you. I blame your leftard professors.

Davidson,

Go eat chocolate.

Well, Phantom, no need for you to hide as long as you're not making gross comments about entire races of people.

Is it really so hard for you to refrain from doing that?

There's a theory, you know, that we're all God's children, and that we've been put here to love each other. You might want to check it out sometime.

Oh, and what's with the "idiot" stuff? Seems like everytime someone here disagrees with me they have to toss in some grade school insult. What's the purpose of that?

It's just a shared reflex you guys have?

"It's time to shut down the beer halls."

As a student of WWII and its origins, I find it fascinating that some leftie loogin' would suggest that a lack of proper enforcement of government liquor licenses would've prevented the rise of the Third Reich.

What a complete retard. Nothing like a latte Liberal to smooth the ride down the slope to complete irrelevance.

Perhaps the real solution was to ban the use of German Beersteins, hence making toasts impossible in the Rhineland.

Beautiful. Water pistols to extinguish a forest fire.

"There's a theory, you know, that we're all God's children, and that we've been put here to love each other"

You may wish to read Augustine's Civitate Dei and his inauguration of Christian Just War theory. While you're at it, perhaps read the passes in the NT that mention Roman Centurions.

Oh hobo -

I'm a 'retard' am I?

Another example of a person here who can't make his point without belching up some childish insult.

It's like you're all in state of constant, panicked hostility.

If you're so confident you're right, why the baby-ish ad hominems?

Is it because you don't dare to utter a peep in your day-to-day life, so you think that kind of talk makes you 'tough'?

Anyway, my point was that the beer halls were the gathering-place for the Nazis. The idea is - let's shut down the gathering-place. Has nothing to do with liquor licenses.

Kind of a drag I even have to explain this, but...

Hobo!

Thanks for the reading list.

Me, I read the Gospels, in which it's stated we're to love our neighbour as ourselves...

No matter whether our neighbour is black, Japanese, Native or Asian...

If you do not do this, you are no Christian.

It really is as simple as that.

Cheers.

In the Public TV documentary The Irish Come To America, it chronicles the Famine Irish who worked on the levees in New Orleans. They came over in empty ships as ballast. They made like ten cents a day and were buried in the mud where they fell and died. Slaves were not usually used for that work because a slave was more expensive and of no value if dead. A dead Irishman could be easily replaced, with no money upfront.

volik,

"It really isn't up for argument that racism is a wrong and destructive thing. You don't 'argue' with racists, Nazis, Klansmen. You prosecute them."
...
"Wouldn't it have been nice to get the Nazis when they were still meeting in beer halls to trade their vile thoughts?"

Funny, I thought it was the Nazis who shut down debate as their way of silencing dissent and instilling the fear in the population they required in order to further their Totalitarian Agenda.

I find it disturbingly ironic that those that perport to want to fight Nazis adopt many of their anti-democratic and liberty-crushing ways.

You don't protect liberty by destroying it. Funny how leftards seem to understand that when they're attacking Bush's (but not the liberal's) anti-terror bills. It's also funny how the reverse is also true. As Steyn suggests, given the government's history, why given them more control over us by letting them crush our liberties in the name of safety? Especially given that both the Liberals and Bush inserted unconstitutional powers that were shut down by both countries courts which have nothing to do with terrorists!

And Volik, as I said elsewhere, people lash out at you not for your message (you rarely have one) but for your snarky, condescending attitude towards others. If you give respect, you will tend to have that returned. Give contempt, you seek abuse - and you shouldn't be surprised to receive it.

I was talking to a friend of mine in a school that is multi-ethnic, mainly Asian and black new immigrants to this country (ironically, in a part of the city where all the street names are in honour of the British founders of the city).

Lunar New Year and Black History Month have been a BIG THING at this school. OK. Today, my friend, a Christian, asked a member of the administration if Ash Wednesday—it's today—was going to be featured in the daily announcements. The answer? No, because Ash Wednesday has not been included (?) in the board’s book of observable feasts.

Just about every other group gets to “self-identify”. Apparently, not Christians because any Christian worth his or her salt—the board probably “consulted” the other kind—would have included Ash Wednesday as a very important day of observation. (It’s the first day of Lent, a penitential season and the 40 days leading up to Easter.)

Considering that Judeo-Christianity is the very basis of Magna Carta and Canadian democracy, it’s, at base, the reason these immigrants have been welcomed here. My family helped to build Canada and has been here for over 200 years. I’m thoroughly tired of being expected to be a door mat to too many—not all—entitled newcomers of very different cultures who contribute little and show no respect for those who paved the way for and opened their doors to them.

I’ve also noticed that the kind of people who disagree with me—heads filled with PC one-sidedness—are usually so brainwashed by the kind of propaganda I’ve just documented, they have no basis on which to make any counter argument, let alone an intelligent, principled one.

Quoth Volik: "Oh, and what's with the "idiot" stuff? Seems like everytime someone here disagrees with me they have to toss in some grade school insult. What's the purpose of that?"

Its part of a quote from Lenin, ducky. He refers to Western apologists for the Soviet Union as "useful idiots".

The purpose of it is to let you know you're shilling for something bad. Freedom good, censorship bad. Got it?

Hey Phantom

Was your earlier reference to "lefty retards" a quote from Trotsky?

My point was that all you guys are incapable of engaging in discourse without throwing in a bunch of infantile insults.

It's as if you know your viewpoint can't be defended, so you vomit forth all these crude, childish ad hominems with the delusion that you're 'vanquishing' your 'enemies'. ("ooh look, I called him a retard! that'll put him in his place!")

It kind of mirrors your racism. You don't actually seem to have a political philosophy. all you know is that you *hate* (black people, Native people, Japanese people, etc). and you make up reasons to justify it aferwards.

The funny thing is that you don't even have the guts to own up to your prejudices, as you admit. You hide out here and yelp "Retard!" if anyone dares question you.

Warwick

The Nazis were able to seize power partly because of their Jew-baiting. Then they clamped down on free speech.

Why should people like you and your pals be able to slander entire races of people, fulminating hostility against innocent individuals, adding to the burden of innocent black and Native children not even born yet?

As the HRC has seen, such words cause pain. In the case of the Nazis, words were enough to unleash a horror on the world.

If you're so convinced that you're guaranteed the freedom to spew racist bile, why don't you go to a black neighbourhood and do so? Come on - don't skulk on a website and do it. Take some of your friends here and go for it. I'd really like to see the results.

Oh, and Warwick? Thanks for the lecture on civility. I've been called a dumbass, a fool, a retard, and an idiot here. Not once have I used these terms against anyone else.

Other posters, including one of your own politcal persuasion, have remarked on the childish rudeness of you and your pals. I suspect it is directed at me because so many of you feel impotent at losing debate after debate.

As well, Warwick, your hypocrisy is laughable. You have the nerve to lecture me on rudeness in a post where you use the term "leftards".

Yeah, Warwick. Everyone to the left of you in the political spectrum is a "retard". And you lecture me on incivility.

Whatever.

Clearly Volik, you still can't comprehend the point.

I don't feel the need to "jew-bait" or yell racist comments at people. That isn't the point.

The point is that if you don't support the right to free speach, you lose all of your other rights along with it.

The point is that if you disagree with someone's speach, you don't have them crushed by the state, you use your own right to free speach to counter the statement you found offensive.

Bad ideas are fought with good ideas, not forced silence.

You don't have to support what someone says to support your right to say it. This is what you don't understand and after 50 posts trying to explain it to you I give up. You really are stupid. Not in the cheap insult way of calling you stupid but in actuality. You are not smart. You don't understand even the most basic arguement.

And the Nazis were able to crush rights because they started with the elimination of free Speach and Press and worked from there. They consolidated their power before rounding up jews, not after. They consolidated power by shutting down free press and intimidating the non-jews so that they would be too fearful to speak out when they did come for the jews. But you don't understand that.

So, it's unanimous then.

Based on the fact that volik has proven that he cannot offer one rational counter argument. Has zero knowledge of any topic he comments on. That his comments are singularly based on nothing more than irrational feelings. That he pompously believes his feelings, invective, insults and ad hominem attacks trump fact and rational thought. That after he has been thoroughly and bleedingly whipped, he ludicrously trumpets victory. That his mental growth was halted at 12...(drum roll please)

He qualifies on all points, in fact, passes with flying colours as the newly elected poster child for the leftard, moonbat nation...(overwhelming applause)

Although the competition was great, he must be congratulated on such courage. It takes guts and iron will to publicly display such an absence of intelligence and irrational, juvenile behaviour. Even more so, allowing this odious display to be recorded for all time.

Warwick, Daisy -

More of the same.

You guys really can't argue your points because you have none.

So again: "Volik's stupid, a leftard, a moonbat - why? 'Cause we say so." (It's 'unanimous' - between you and Warwick, right, Daisy?)

You have your little playpen here where you cna spew your racism and your sub-mental ideas.

And if anyone from the outside wold should challenge you - why they're 'retards', right?

So: lean over your computers, guys, and as old age creeps up on you, you keep typing inhow those blacks and Native and Japs are ruining your country. Fight the good nattle, boys!

Show'em you won't go down with out a fight!

Your ideas are identical to every other inbred knuckle-dragging mouth-breathing racist in the country.

But it's 'everybody else' who's stupid.

Right, guys?

(Guess your fathers called you stupid all the time when you were kids ;)

Actually no, volik:

In your support of the Islamic ideology as illustrated in and taught from the texts and Mohammad's life example, it can be concluded that you are an anti-Semetic racist, bigot and misogynist. In this, pleading ignorance is not a defence.

Because you lack critical skills, the capacity to reason on a rational basis, not to mention, your complete lack of knowledge of current and past factual history - and in place, you argue based on your feelings - then indeed, you are an idiot.

Because you can't comprehend any of the above, you are a moonbat.

Any questions?

Volik,

I'll make this easy by breaking it up.

One: if I'm a racist, point to any of my posts that illustrates this. Any. A quote if you will.

Two: you are hiding from the point you claim I don't have by ignoring it. Instead of yelling "racist" whenever you are confronted with facts and arguments, try countering what was actually said instead of addressing issues that are entirely absent.

Threee: if you don't like the names you are called try not living down to them.

You are everything that nauseates me about the left.

Daisy

In my support of the Islamic ideology....?

Gee, since your ass has been soundly whipped on every front in this discussion, now you have to...make stuff up?

Sure, I thought your ad hominems before were kinda sad...but now to go for this lame gambit when anyone here can see it's so desperate and unfounded...

Well, it's just pathetic, Daisy.

You really are embarrassing to your fellow believers here.

Please: go back to croaking "retard!" and "stupid!" as a means of intellectual discourse.

That's the real crowd-pleasing stuff here - that's what gets the fists punching the air and bellowing "Victory!"

'Cause this latest ploy of fabricating stuff, it's not clever ...it's just delusional..and embarrasing...and sad...

Warwick--

I'm everything that nauseates you about the left, am I?

Well, you already consider everyone to the left of you a 'leftard' - a'retard' (how mature), so that means nothing.

What is interesting is the need your kind has to demonize and create false boogeymen out of those you disagree with. i.e., you can't just have a differnt point of view - they have to be 'retards'.

A psychologist would say it's one who considers himself a failure and has to look for others to blame and hate for his failure, who does such a thing.

Since of course you can't be responsible for your failures (since you have no capacity for self-examination), it must be the fault of others - the leftards and people of other colours and beliefs.

Some would say the degree of hate corresponds to the degree of failure in the hater's