This raises again a question I have had in my mind about the men of the muslim world, that is, do they insist on their females wearing all that cover because they cannot otherwise be trusted to exercise self restraint.

actually it goes back to the olde fashioned reason for rape..."she was asking for it"
which means she was acting slutty
she wore provocative clothes
she was in the wrong place...etc
now the trip point is :
she wasnt wearing a burka
she didnt have a male companion(family required)

"it is good to see you have changed phrase “Iranian Pig” to “Fine Iranian Gentleman” . this is exactly what we do . we call the girl “victim” although we belive the “canadian bitch” is some thing she deserves ."

BWWWAHAHAHAAA!!!!

I think that some of the other comments, from Iranians who are here in Canada, are intelligent and reasoned.

That is, their point was that this young man who attacked the girl in the elevator, was - himself. I doubt if you can validly link his behaviour to his culture. What he did was wrong, but you can't generalize from his behaviour to declare that it's common to ALL Iranians.

As others have pointed out, can you generalize from one incident in Canada (let's say the Pig Farmer in BC who killed all the women)..to say that ALL Canadians are serial killers? Can you generalize from one incident of abandoning their baby in Toronto - to a conclusion that all Torontonians abandon their children? [I know some who read this blog might think that way about Torontonians...but...]

In the war of words, radical Islam needs to be re-labeled satanic Islam. Rushdi (sp?) had it right when he titled his work.. Satanic verses. It is what got him the Fatwa. In their war on the west the muslim leaders need to have their people believing they are doing the work of Allah not that of satan. We in the west need to be telling them otherwise. Casting out the devil is an important part of Islam. If it is said enough they will start to see the radicals for what they are....followers of Satan, not the martyrs that they currently see them as.

ET - this kid advanced the the well deserved Muslim stereotype of macho sexist males when he uttered as his defense......“You can't expect all males to control themselves when the breasts are out." Sure, he could have been a homegrown punk, but, he's from a culture where the expectation of sexual assault is implied if females aren't wrapped in a burqa or have a strand of hair showing.

I feel safe enough to generalize that he represents the dysfunction of Muslim male/female relationships.

yep. iranian pig fits.

ET,of course you should not lump all together because of the actions of one. But this man belongs to a 'religion' that believes women who do not cover up thier 'assets are fair game. It was only recently that one of the leaders in thier 'religion' stated that if the meat is left out,the cat will eat it. Or some such drivel.

"kissing breasts" wouldn't make the top 100 nastiest things done to female high school students in Toronto on any given day.

And as I attempt to research a kayak trip this summer it is difficult to find a rural community in Canada that *isn't* in the midst of a meth-fuelled crime epidemic.

I'm reading cases on canoe forums of canoists getting robbed left and right and the RCMP basically telling the victims they are stupid for coming to their community. Strange that we would focus instead on such peripheral crimes - very, very strange.

Flame - a not so nasty peripheral crime, come again? It's pretty predatory and horrifying to corner someone alone in an elevator, no windows, doors sealed, no ability to scream for help and put your mouth on the private parts of their body.

So sorry that a mindless sexist like yourself can't find a safe spot for canoing.

Flame, the lefty progressive tries to label sexual assault a peripheral crime and throws in another left wing canard; “we are as bad as they are”. The progressive leftie women hold hands and sing the latest Katz Stevens song about how the "special religion" is all about peace and respect for women. Flame is being deceitful and using the despicable and totally wrong moral relativism big lie. The leftie women, by not standing up and saying any oppression against women even if it is by the members of the oppressed “special religion” is unacceptable, are making the case for the leaders of the “special religion” that women do not have the intellect to hold position of power. But if these leftie progressives are not shaken from their useful idiot pedestals by the use “special religion’s” use of mentally retarded kids as bomb conveyance devices I cannot imagine what would make them wake up and smell the humus.

Maybe I missed it, but does it say anywhere this man is a Muslim? Not all Iranians are.

Most Iranians in Canada arrived in the 1970s and 80s to flee the 'Islamic Republic' regime. One of my daughters live in a condo tower in north Toronto where most of the residents are Persians. You should see the women: incredibly hot and always dressed like models. No burkas and hijabs there!

"So sorry that a mindless sexist blahblahblah"

Thank you, feminist penny, for giving me exactly what my comment was calculated to produce. I hope you and your fat girlfriends enjoy your upcoming fat sex tourism trip to Jamaica.

Wow, what an awful lot of furor over a kissed breast, not to mention vast generalizations and extreme vitriol on both sides of the "Dime a Dozen" commentary. To call the Iranian student a pig is a bit harsh -- he's chauvinistic to be sure, misguided at the least, and he would have to be a very recent arrival in Canada not to know that such actions are illegal here. But there's no evidence of brutality or malice on his part, and I'll bet he's suffered far worse in his short prison stay than what the young lady suffered at his hands. Were I the judge I would have given him some mandatory re-education and community service.

My feeling is we should do away with blanket terms like "sex offender" and "sexual assault" that put violent rape in the same category as a subway grope. They're both undesirable, but one calls for a smack upside the head and the other calls for a lengthy jail term, and mature adults should be able to tell the difference.

wallyj - it's not the religion that defines his cultural or personal view that women who aren't covered are 'fair game'.

I disagree with penny that the stereotype of Muslim males is 'well deserved'.

His behaviour can't be linked so easily to his culture, to his religion. There are too many in both his culture (Iranian) and religion who wouldn't behave in such a manner to come to such a conclusion.

Can't be linked to his religion or culture, hahahahahaha. It has everything to do with his religion and culture. In his country, under his religion, the female would be stoned to death. It must be hard for muslim males to lose that control when they come to a civilized country.

So now we know why muslim women are not allowed in public without a male relative. They know muslim men can't control themselves. Wasn't there an Iman who said women are asking to be raped for the way they dress.
With muslim men so prone to rape, and expect to find 72 virgins when they blow themselves up, where do the virgins come from.

"there's no evidence of brutality or malice on his part"

Imagine dave's response if this happened to his wife/daughter. "Oh, stop whining! He meant no malice! He only groped you. Show some tolerance for people who don't understand our culture!"
Please don't identify yourself as being from Ontario, dave, you're embarrassing us.

Obfuscate all you want, but, in countries such as Norway where you can trust the statistics, are there more rapes in areas with higher concentrations of muslim males and are these rapes committed by muslim males? If so,ladies and gentlemen, there actually is a demonstrable problem that we can ascribe to religion or cultural or whatever you want as long as you recognize there is a problem. To find ways to interpose confusion to keep us from focusing on the problem is a disservice to the susequent women who are raped. But hey, I only have sons and there is no homosexuality in the “special religion” so our family should be okay.

My apologies Mr Spencer, perhaps my wife is made of sterner stuff than yours. She'd plant her handbag in his ear for his boorish behaviour and carry on with her day. In fact, she told me only a month or so ago about a similar incident that happened to her some years ago.

eyeswideshut, besides Norway, there's a similar problem in Sweden and Australia, with rape stats going way up and the culprits being almost entirely Muslim immigrants. That "religion of peace"!

Good to know, Dave, that while you're explaining the poor immigrants actions to your wife, she'd act like a man and turf the punk. Glad there's at least one pair of pants in the family. Too bad they're slacks, and not trousers.

Dave from Brantford wants to make this about the victims and how they (over) react to minor matters such as sexual assault. We all know that getting away with sexual assault would, like, never lead to rape. Dave in Pa. looks to statistics to confirm what the problem is and from whence it comes. As between “blame the victim” or “identifying the problem”, I go with Dave from Ps. on this one.

I now see how the progressive left will try to get around their cognitive dissonance regarding their less than convincing stand on womens’ rights and their unwavering support of members of the “special religion” no matter what they do. Hey, a monolithic block of ethnic votes is not to be sneezed at.

Hey, no changing the premise in mid-arument! Of course if I'm there I get to deal with him, but that changes the scenario completely.

Crucifixion then, for the subway groper as well as for the rapist?

The chances of him not being Muslim are about 2% or less. Let us not forget how they treat other religions in Iran, I believe that genocide is part of their history.

Sexual abuse or assult on women is part of Islamic Culture, in most Islamic Countries it's only rape if he brought four friends along to watch and testify against him. Dah we call that gang rape in Canada. Women and children have no rights in Islamic Countries, they are as disposible as garbage. Raping women and children is part of Islamic Culture, for heavens sake the Koran is part Karma Sutra and part how to wage a war with cheap weapons. 200,000 rape victims and still counting in the Horn of Africa by Arab Muslims.

As another poster noted, when Muslim immigration rises so do rape cases against non-Muslims women. Europe has refused to keep statistics because it's worst than even bloggers have imagined. We need to make Islam part of the issue when women in Canada are attack or molested, because if we don't we negate that his religion allows for the rape of women and children.

Things are going to get worse in Canada, much worse.

Dave,it would not happen if you were there. If the woman did not react in horror,the pig would likely have continued to more intrusive violations. I would deport the perv after his sentence. If he thinks that women are fair game,he does not belong in a modern country. I hope this prick never wanders on to a beach.

It starts with “You can’t expect all males to control themselves when the breasts are out”

And in no time at all you end up with this.

http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/757-Pan-European-Arab-Muslim-Gang-Rape-Epidemic.html

Take a good long look at the woman in the picture .

And then read this:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080204&fname=Col+Bhaichand+%28F%29&sid=1

My good heavenly days! Well, of course, those Iranians at rjjago.wordpress.com have a right to be offended. After all, the phrase "Iranian pig" can ONLY mean that ALL Iranians are pigs. Just like the phrase, "Canadian Prime Minister" can only mean that ALL Canadians are Prime Minister.

If their understanding of logic is that bad (if they are that stupid), they may actually believe that suicide bombers will be rewarded with 72 perpetual “virgins” in “heaven.

Once again, we have immigrants to Canada making immigrants to Canada look like fools, all the while claiming to be victims. How long before they start demanding compensation for their hurt feelings?

It was mentioned in the comments that he is not Muslim. However, coming from a misogynist Muslim culture does rub off.

Commenting on the infamous Muslim rapes in Australia, Sheik Hilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

"The uncovered meat is the problem."

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

This is essentially the ideological Islamic positon, especially towards kaffir women.

The incidents of Rape throughout Europe has increased exponentially and is tracked to immigration. In Sweden, over 80% of the rapes are committed by Muslims. Similar statistics are posted throughout Europe. The more Muslims, the more incidents of rape. (fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12/immigrant-rape-wave-in-sweden.html)

Women are considered chattel in Islam.

The Qur'an likens a woman to a field (tilth), to be used by a man as he wills: "Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will" (2:223).

The Qur'an also declares that a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man: "Get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her" (2:282).

It allows men to marry up to four wives, and have sex with slave girls also: "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice" (4:3).

It rules that a son's inheritance should be twice the size of that of a daughter: "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children's (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females" (4:11).

The Qur’an tells husbands to beat their disobedient wives: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them" (4:34).

It allows for marriage to pre-pubescent girls, stipulating that Islamic divorce procedures “shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated” (65:4).

These verses are institutionalized in shariah law.

Kaffir women are worth even less. "That your right hand possesses" in other words, non-Islamic women are slaves and slaves are meant to be raped. This is one of the war booty benefits of jihad.

White european women have always been the top prize. During the 17th and 18th century, the Barbary Coast Muslims conducted slaving raids on European coastal villages - sometimes wiping out whole villages - as far north as Iceland. It's estimated that 1.5 million Europeans were brought into slavery during this time, mainly women for the harems. It was ended by the newly formed US Navy and Marines on Jefferson's and Adam's orders. "The shores of Tripoli.."

Odogai Khan could not be reached for comment.

Should read - during the 18th and 19th century, the Barbary Coast Muslims...

No, honey pot, I don't think his behaviour should be directly linked to his culture or his religion. By doing so, you absolve him of any personal responsibility - and he becomes a VICTIM of his culture/religion in that he's merely a clone of them. I disagree.

He's an adult; he's responsible. He's a student in a foreign country (Canada). He knows perfectly well that he can't behave like that in Canada. Therefore, HE is responsible. Not his religion. Not his culture.

I have always thought this..it says more about the man who cannot bear to see a womans ankle, than the woman who shows a bit of skin..

What can you expect from peoples that find it acceptable to have sex with an animal, or a male friend, because of the lack of opportunity to have sex with women..?

Lemme see here, we have Flame, and Dave from Brantford saying this sexual assault is no big deal.

Are you kidding me?

You're going to seriously consider multi-culti as an excuse for groping chicks in elevators? You're going to whine that "Iranian pig" is too harsh for this POS? How about some random white guy who gropes an Iranian chick in the elevator, that ok too? Noooo, that would be a -bad- thing, right?

If the woman had knifed or shot him, as he richly deserved, I bet you'd have her hauled up for attempted murder.

And you wonder why we mock you. You two are a friggin' disgrace.

I'm with Dave from Brantford. Seems he has a half decent perspective. Having read some of the comments prior to reading the actual story, I thought he'd raped her. But kissing the top of her breast? As offenses go, I'd put this slightly ahead of a pinch on the bottom. Sure, he's a pig. He's also still just a kid, and he made a stupid, juvenile mistake. But come on.

"Flame" isn't far off the mark when he says -" "kissing breasts" wouldn't make the top 100 nastiest things done to female high school students in Toronto on any given day."

I think the victim will, somehow, perhaps with counseling, and the healing nature of time, tap into her inner strength and courage, and put this heinous, awful, unthinkable episode behind her. Or maybe she'll just eat some chocolate and forget about it. If she can't get over it, maybe she should stay indoors, or get herself a bubble. If she can't handle this kind of thing, she's not going to be able to handle much of life, I'm afraid.

Some posters are far too quick to look for any shred of a reason to blame it on Muslims (though he isn't Muslim - just Iranian). That's what your posts are about.

Phantom? Is that you? Doesn't sound like you. You honestly think that this kid, who kissed the top of a girls breasts without permission, deserves to be knifed? I'd have her hauled up for attempted murder too, if she did that. Far out of proportion to the offense, and in no way a reasonable defense.

In my opinion, what he did had far more to do with his being young and full of testosterone than with his culture. God, half the men on streetcorners in Italy would be getting stabbed if you had your way.

I agree with Jimbo - nothing to do with his 'culture' or 'religion'. And if the girl reacted by knifing him - she'd be at fault too.

Too many people are using this to Bash Islam and All Muslims.

I don't think his actions are necessarily the result of his being Muslim. Rapes and sexual assaults happen in every culture. However his defence comes across as being one a Muslim would use. For the Muslim sin is something induced in the individual not something innate in the individual. Thus a Christian man who sees a woman with breasts exposed and becomes sexually aroused would if he were to follow the teachings of Christ look to himself as being incomplete as shown by his arousal.

If a Muslim man sees a woman with breasts exposed and becomes aroused it is the woman’s fault because she induced sin to enter him. Since the object of the exercise is to lead a life as sin free as possible it is better to teach the woman to cover up her breasts than to leave her with breasts exposed and become aroused the next time he sees her.

Jimbo (and Dave from brantford), we're not in Italy. The girl was not in an Italian elevator. The boy was not in either Italy or Iran. The boy, here in Canada, assaulted another person against their will. That, here, in Canada, is a crime. The girl, here in Canada, has a statutory right to not being groped, molested, or assaulted, in an elevator, or anywhere else. You see, (no you don't, but anyway), the perpetrator doesn't get to decide if their actions constitute a crime or not - that's the state's call, upon representation by the victim.

Having been convicted, his student visa should be revoked, and he should be deported. The Government of Canada recently fired a long time employee for suggesting, in a spat with a supervisor, that employees occasionally go postal (both men, btw). Never even got near the supervisor. The lad should be done here. Serious questions need to be asked if he's allowed to stay.

I don't want to sound like a barbarian, but here's what I think needs to happen.

Some of the girls' male relatives should get this kid alone and explain to him in English that should he ever pull such a stunt again, they will personally drag him out in the street and give him a tune-up.

Any sane kid would realize that he was on thin ice, and that would be the end of it.

I spent ayear in Iran 30 years ago when the old shahansha was in control.

What a desolate degraded place!

How surprising that 99.9% of Iranians want to migrate to Canada.

Percentage of Canadians who want to migrate to Iran: 0.000043%

Now, why would that be????

Hell ya its me. Tell you what Jimbo, I don't have any time for molesters.

He's got a woman trapped in an elevator, she has NO idea what he's going to do, he's not staying the hell off, he's bigger and stronger than she is, that's what knives and guns are for.

Personally I could care less in the fool is a Muslim or a freakin' Scots Presbyterian, its irrelevant.

What's relevant is we have predators roaming about freely, looking for targets of opportunity. In this environment we have IDIOTS like Flame and Dave there trying to minimize the impact these scum have on their victims and our larger society.

Do you think this woman is ever going to feel safe in an elevator again? Not a chance. Multiply that by about a million and you get Canada, the place where nobody feels safe and where kids don't walk to school by themselves like we did when we were kids.

What caused that? Flame and Dave, times the population of Toronto. All the buffoons who have been propagandized into believing that self defense is somehow redneck at best and the cause of violence at worst. Wearing a short skirt causes rape like carrying a gun causes crime, but all I hear is boneheads saying "its not so bad" or "its those Muslims!" Doesn't matter a DAMN who it is if I know my wife/daughter/mother is equipped to see them off at need when I'm not around to do it for them.

Sorry for the rant Jimbo, this pushes all my p1ss off buttons. Makes me cranky as hell. Think I'll go beat something metallic with a hammer for a while now.

Would it be a fair deduction to say Muslim males are sex mad fiends? Some will die on the promise of 72 virgins in the great beyond if they kill infidels. I'd say that's pretty MAD.

18 month old baby girl in Surrey murdered by daddy while mommy walks the 2 older girls to school. 16 year old teenage girl in tranna murdered by father and brother. within the last 2 years on the lower mainland a pregnant teacher was murdered and left in her burning car, a newlywed woman murdered, the list goes on.. muslim men punish their women to make up for their own inadequancies. send these backward neandrathals to grade 5 science class where children learn about x and y chromosomes and the workings of mother nature.

Pig farmer in BC murders and dismembers 49 women. Clifford Olson murders 11 (that he confessed to), including children. Canadian Michel Veillette stabs his wife and burns their four children to death in Ohio.

Those damn Muslim men.

Liz

I don't know if this knob is a muslim or not. I hope someone from the school her perverts will let us know for sure. But to your point "muslim males are sex mad fiends"...they are likely not genetically or physiologically predisposed to be rapist or pedophiles. So what part of their culture gives them “permission” so see women as a placeholder for their private parts? Hmm could it be their reli, their relig, their religio naw couldn’t be.

First of all I don't know why racism come up here as Iran is NOT a race.

Secondly for all those who dislike Canada and think Iran is such a wonderful place why don't they just go back?

Horny Toad

Sorry, Jimbo, but, alone in an elevator with some stranger who puts his mouth on your breast which could just as quickly escalate to hands on your throat, that's far from your garden variety subway groping which is creepy enough. Legally putting your hands on someone without their permission is construed as battery. It's the reason I don't put my hands on a patient until they have signed a consent for treatment.

As per wikipedia, 98% of Iranians are Muslims.

And, back to the Muslim male stereotype, it's deserved, just ask any western female that has been to the ME what happens if they aren't accompanied by a male in public.

ET - I have no problem bashing Islam. It ought to be bashed, mocked and shamed until it reforms itself or disappears.

You know there's nothing sensible left to say when some idiot drags pickton into the debate. Is anyone sticking up for serial killers here, Jimbo? Is it some essential element of western civilisation that our religion defends?

penny - I agree with critiquing Islam. It absolutely requires that. But, I disagree with saying that this young man behaved the way he did, BECAUSE he was Muslim. Or Iranian.

That, in my view, rather than promoting our civic mode of governance, where the focus is on the individual as an agent and as responsible - that action simply turns him into a hapless victim of his culture or religion. It also assumes that ALL men who are Iranian or who are Muslim, will behave this way - and of course, we know that this is completely false.

We do this same 'group identity-bashing' when we let off women who kill their children by saying that 'they were abused as a child or by their partner'.

Or, when we absolve someone of manslaughter in the death of his two children whom he 'dropped' in the frozen snow - by saying that he was 'drunk' (that's the excuse Rabble posters have made).

This young man's behaviour was due to him. Not to his religion. Not to his culture. Him and his responsibility as an individual.

Re: "Sorry for the rant Jimbo, this pushes all my p1ss off buttons."

I can see that. Sorry 'bout that. Go "beat something metallic with a hammer". I'm going to the gym.

Maybe I have a different picture of what happened. I see a young, awkward guy, carried away by raging hormones, acting on impulse, and kissing the top of a woman's exposed breast. I guess I see myself at his age, though I never did anything like that, or would consider it. It's piggish and inexcusable, and I realize the fact they were in a confined place makes it more traumatic for the girl, but I just don't see this as warranting stabbing, deportation, etc.

Maybe it's too much time spent working in bars, where the more likely reaction would be, no nip, no foul. And yes, I am making light of the subject, because I don't feel it's that big a deal. Where I worked, the guy would be taken outside, spoken to forcefully, possibly barred, and that would be the end of it, unless she decided to make it a police matter.

I'm just saying on a scale of 1-10 of possible offenses, I'd maybe rate this about a 2 or 3. Maybe. Obviously some feel differently. I sincerely hope I don't push any more buttons here Phantom - that's not what I'm trying to do. I may not always agree with you, but I've got a lot of respect for your opinions and contributions here. And I appreciate that it's not a racist/cultural thing with you.

I agree with phantom and penny.

Phantom is completely right.. the most justifiable thing that could have happened would have been immediate retaliation by the victim, as soon as the kid physically offended her. Under those circumstances, a knife or gun would have been completely appropriate. (They make some nice little derringers that would be perfect for such a situation.)

And I agree with penny that Islam should be ridiculed until it changes or disappears.

Although we have every kind of garden-variety creep that you can dig out of the slime here in Texas, we have fewer Muslims perpetrating crimes. I think the reason is simply because the Muslims realize that they are on a lot thinner ice with us.

Our really major problem is our politicians. We keep screaming at them to stop immgrating these people into our countries. We keep pointing out the cultural and criminal and economic problems associate with their immigration. But the politicians continue to ignore us and put us into situations like this unfortunate woman.

My opinion of politicians sinks lower every day. Maybe some of them even privately agree with us, but for God's sake, they're not going to do anything to jeopardize their little offices.

In the West, sane people are losing control of our governments. Frankly, some of the politicians for letting Muslims into our countries should be considered accessories after the fact to sexual molestation.

Re:"is anyone sticking up for serial killers here, Jimbo?" - Dean Spencer

No, Dean. Obviously, I'm pointing out the previous poster's ridiculous use of unrelated examples as evidence Muslims are "backward neanderthals". Obviously. Read the post just above mine.

and re: "Is it some essential element of western civilisation that our religion defends?"

"our religion"? What?

...i'm a leg man myself.

Then you've got to consider what would have occurred should this have happened to Kate.

She probably would have kicked the shit out of him and then given him a bill for the dominatrix fees.

Maybe then he would have understood the consequences of sexually offending a real Canadian.

ET - if Islam and its relationship to women wasn't so dysfunctional, disrespectful and far too often downright violent to them, then, this guy's inappropriate behavior wouldn't make him so easily a poster boy for all that is rotten about Islam. I have no idea what motivated this guy completely except that his statement that "you can’t expect all males to control themselves when the breasts are out" left some clues. It's obvious he felt permitted. We are all free to speculate past that.

Jimbo, I don't think that you thinking about the circumstances here, a closed elevator isn't the same as a social setting like a bar when something this unexpected and creepy happens. I'd be terrified, and I've worked in mental health in some pretty rough places with some pretty rough clients, simply because here's a person who is so dis-inhibited and taking advantage of the privacy of an elevator.

This guy deserves deportation after that incident. There are no assurances that he isn't a threat to others. Their is an adage in psych and with cops that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. I don't see in this story where this guy has any insight or remorse.

I propose the following as a means of simplifying the questions raised - and answered - on this and other threads.

No aspect of humanity not open to the choice of the person involved can be used to discriminate against him; all actions any human takes by choice are properly subject to criticism by any other human, and are valid criteria by which to pass judgement upon him.

As with anything as far-ranging as this rule, the devil will be in the details. But I think it is flexible enough to cover most things of which I have been able to think. Have at it

"Muslim males are sex mad fiends? Some will die on the promise of 72 virgins in the great beyond if they kill infidels."

It's important for these passionate, virgin-loving, infidel-vaporizing wackos to remember that 72 virgins aren't really a lot. For a normal person in an average lifetime it would be outstanding, but we're talking Eternity here.

So, a word from the wise to you insane, deranged fanatical Islam practising dudes. Pace yourselves. You do them all at one and then what have you got?

Do the math. What's Eternity/72? My calculator doesn't have an Eternity button.

just spent a week at a nice sunny resort

coulda wore my lips of kissing:-))))

on a serious note, the fool should be tried of the crime commited, sentanced , and then booted

we want our wimin folk to feel safe no matter were they go, even WITHOUT the presence of a male

I compare my experience in New York with Phoenix. In nice suburbs of New York, you don't see women jogging or biking alone or even in pairs. At all. Ever. Because they aren't safe.

In Phoenix, when the weather is nice, one commonly sees fiiine looking women jogging and biking and rollerblading and even skateboarding, alone, in pairs, in gaggles.

The difference, my friends, is not that there are no a-holes in Arizona. There are many, many predators, nutcases, sleazeballs, scumbags etc. The difference is what's inside that little fanny pack those chicks are wearing over their skin-tight running gear.

An armed society is a polite society. Also a SAFE society.

It's actually 72 white raisins.

That's what the German scholars researching the collection of ancient Islamic manuscripts have interpreted from the original Syriac.

Imagine the martyr's surprise when he's awarded 72 raisins for blowing himself up. What a mixup.

Hey Irwin, I remember when that Sheik Hilali used his famous 'uncovered meat' analogy.

I emailed an Aussy paper and pointed out that what he was really saying is that his young group of fine innocent Muslim rapist boys had the brains and morals of a pack of dogs looking for a bitch in heat.

And if they couldn't act like civilized men, then they should be deported back to a time warp that suits them.

But hey, this is the kind of BS that happens when the 14th century barbarians, led by uneducated immans, meet the 21st century civilization.

Wait, there's a knock at the door!
Oh no, its the dreaded thought police!

Jimbo I am the poster of "backward neandrathals" and I stand by that, any man who believes that it's his womens' fault because he has no boys needs to check out his own shorts. backwards neandrathal.

ET, I don't entirely agree with your position. Though the individual remains responsible for his/her own actions and not all muslim or Iranian males would act this way, they are strongly influenced by their religion and their upbringing.

When I was young, I was taught to say "excuse me" when I burp...everytime I burp now, I say "excuse me". Is this an example of me being responsible or is this a result of my upbringing? Sorry to burst your bubble, its because of my upbringing.

Muslim males and males from islamic countries are brought up to believe that women are second-class citizens and that anyone "asking for it" deserves it. It is nurture, not nature.

Men's universal NATURE is to get horny around attractive females...it is programmed into us. Our upbringing, or our NURTURE, decides how we respond to the urges.

I posit that your statement about this not having anything to do with culture is incorrect. Therefore, it is a cultural or religious problem.

This Iranian site has some comments that are somewhat similar to our own. However, it seems to point out that this type of behaviour is common on the streets of Tehran.

http://67.192.94.187/main/singlepage/2008/farhood-azarsina

fivefeetoffury has this quote up on her site today:

Considering the hundreds of sexual cues men are exposed to every day, and society's "if it feels good, do it" ethos, combined with their hardwired sexual natures, I'd say men deserve our congratulations and thanks.

There are still many men who are able to both control themselves in the midst of society's changing dress codes and have a deep respect for those women who dress more modestly than the norm. Indeed, "the lady" has not yet disappeared from our society and "the gentleman" still notices.

So should we send all men of Islam religion to a nudist camp? Just think of the carnage! Carnage as in the guys/gals kicking the crap out of the muzzie who tries to move in on some nudity. So if the female body is so tempting to them,why do they so willing move to a country where it is on display???

Re: "Jimbo, I don't think that you're thinking about the circumstances here, a closed elevator isn't the same as a social setting like a bar, when something this unexpected and creepy happens. I'd be terrified" by Penny

Point taken, Penny. I understand your point of view, and I'm trying to channel Alan Alda as best I can, but I still don't think it was that bad, and sure don't agree he should be deported, much less stabbed, or shot. You mention kissing the top of her breast could "easily escalate to hands on your throat". I suppose it could have escalated to a lot of things, but please consider that it didn't. They were alone on in an elevator, he could have done anything, and the worst he did was kiss the top of her breasts. Stupid, immature, creepy, inconsiderate, etc., yes.

I'm not disagreeing with you that Muslim men in the ME, and some here, treat women in unacceptable ways. I'd like to add to the list, if it's ok with you.

I know some Lebanese Christian guys who also treat women like dirt. It's disgusting to see. Same with some of the Italian guys I know. Especially if they've had a couple glasses of wine.

Then there are the Mexican guys I got to know in California. You wouldn't believe how bad they treated the women they met. I've heard it can be that way throughout much of Central and South America, where there's this ultra macho culture.

Some of the Jamaican guys I've met might actually be the worst. Some scary dudes - misogynist doesn't begin to cover it. And the way Aboriginal men have treated women on the reserves and off is horrible, and an embarrassment.

I play in a band where the other members are black Americans. They can be extremely sexist by my standards, and I've let them know I don't appreciate the way they treat the women sometimes. In fact, I know a lot of touring musicians that treat women poorly. Especially the black musicians. Singers and guitarists seem the worst offenders, followed, in order, by bass players and drummers. Piano players are, generally, pretty nice, but there are some exceptions, especially if they're from Texas.

The most disgusting I've seen has to be the way the US soldiers treated the hookers in Tijuana. They beat the crap out of them, and treat them as if they were a subhuman species. It happens in the Philippines too, by the base.

Then there's the way the sex tourists, often Aussies, but sometimes Brit's, and yes, Canadians, treat the Thai, Indonesian, and Filipino's, including the kids.

Japanese men have been known to treat women as subservient, and the way they've historically treated women from other cultures (China, Korea, Philippines) is their "dirty little secret. And have you noticed how Russian and Romanian men treat women? How come so many are pimps?

I could go on. Don't get me started about the Swiss;)

Okay so a few knuckle dragging males say it's her fault, she's minding her biddness and a horney Iranian attacks her but he's really not a sex offender. Not in Iran he isn't but in Canada he is, thankfully.

So the next time I have PMS I can take my bread knife and hack the penis off the first male I see, after all it's not my fault it's theirs because they should of known I have PMS.

As for sexual Cues, get a life dick head. It's called brushing the hair out of our eyes, it's not a come hither look to some Barbarian from an Islamic Country. Honestly I can't believe the men who have crawled out of their paneled basements/caves to defend this pervert.

Thankfully he'll never get a job in Canada from a reputable company EVER, one google search and it's over. Lights out pig man.

Islamic Culture is to blame, those that state he isn't Muslim really and you know this how? It wasn't brought up at trial because his religion wasn't applicable but his responses were typical Islamic hyperhole of blame the "Female" and excuse the criminal. He's right about one thing, in Iran she'd never get to file a complaint. Just badley beaten by the Morals and vice police for not being Moral enough.

A country that advocates that women are devils and should shroud themselves in bedsheets lest they get raped. Sick so sick, what a pityful culture.

Jimbo

you forgot to mention

most of those "people" you listed would be liberal voters:-)))))

Our government (as well as others) publish advisories about travelling to different countries. These advisories usually include things that you shouldn't do there (although it's OK here). For Egypt, as an example, "men should not wear shorts outside tourist areas" ... "Respect religious and social traditions to avoid offending local sensitivities."

www.voyage.gc.ca/dest/report-en.asp?country=79000

I don't want to offend local sensitivities ... so I will not go to Egypt ... it's my choice.

Maybe Canada has to publish what offends Canadian "sensitivities" and make those that want to travel here read them. For most individuals coming here it would be common sense (and might be, help us, offensive) ... for those special visitors (like the one in question ... really I'm not bitter about subsidizing him ... taxpayer thing) it might help.

Of course Islam is at the root of this, it's a delusion to think otherwise. His rationale to the court is the same as every Muslim rapist caught, blame the victim.

First prize to Jimbo for moral equivocation blovation of the thread. Salaam.

ET you haven't learned much about Islam yet have you?

Jimbo - your point is well taken. I just can't get past the elevator scenerio on this one, it puts the onus on this guy as calculating in my opinion.

Is he a symptom of Islam, could be, maybe not, it's still a religion, make that cult, that needs to be mocked until it disappears or reforms. If they don't like the stereotype that flashes red with stories like this they can change it.

Re: "First prize to Jimbo for moral equivocation blovation of the thread. Salaam."

I'm not excusing the behavior, just pointing out other cultures and categories of people have similarly reprehensible, um, tendencies. And, by extension, pointing out that many who post here have another tendency - that is, to bash Muslims at every turn.

Are you suggesting only Muslims treat women badly? Or are you suggesting it's worse if Muslims do it? Or, that it's ok for certain groups to treat women badly, but not for Muslims?

OK Penny. I'm with you now, and agree on the major point. I think I was seeing it less from the point of view of the woman (naturally) who was trapped with this idiot and victimized, and relating more to the guy, who made a terrible mistake that, hopefully, is a one-time thing.

I made mistakes in my wild youth that I regret. If he doesn't learn his lesson and repeats this kind of behavior, then, by all means, out he goes.

Jimbo

In Islam , misogyny is hardwired and abuse of women is expected an encouraged. It can never be altered because it is the will of Allah.

In most of the other abuse examples you gave, a woman who fought back might gain some respect, in Islam she would be condemned and executed for trying to defend herself. Islam is not like anything else.

eeyore - your parental upbringing is not identical with your 'culture' and 'religion'. My point was that the Iranian culture and the Islamic religion are not causal of this young man's behaviour. He is - and that could include his parental upbringing.

Iranian culture does NOT mean that a man can attack a woman. Islamic religion does NOT mean that a man can attack a woman.

blackbird - no, (sigh), I'm not deluded and I don't think that Islam is 'at the bottom' of his behaviour. And I know a fair bit about Islam, thank you.

Good posts, jimbo.

BL@KBIRD,

I don't believe it's hardwired. There are some parts of the world where the behavior you're referring to is the norm, and we should do everything we can to stop it. If it's hardwired, then we're talking about a "final solution" scenario. There's too much evidence, thank God, that it's not.

If you've ever seen a prostitute fight back against her Jamaican pimp, you'd know respect is not what she gained, if she survived.

Well here's a "moderate" post at the site to which Kate linked:

----------------------------------

"Mohammad Ashouriّ February 3, 2008 at

hey Robert, gays are gentlemen when facing with women and but i think you are a impolite gay. women love to get raped and fucked, don’t forget it! Islam knows this issue and its why Islam recommend “Hijab” for women. i see what women could do why body’s are out.
finally, I think you, Canadian, have erection problem. and its why you are using TV instead of pussy!"

------------------------------

Hard to tell if that's a real Muslim or Lucy Warman.

I am having trouble comprehending what is being said here. A person is attacked in an elevator and guys (?) like Jimbo are saying that people shouldn't worry? What was the next step for this perv? If kissing stranger's breasts is no big deal then what is?
I'm sorry but where I come from you don't kiss stranger's breasts (at least without a CLEAR invitation).

Just got back and see that this thread is still going.

If we look at the situation after the fact, then we understand that we're dealing with something that ultimately falls into the range of a frightening misdemeanor.

So examination after the fact leads me to one course of action, which I stated in my first post. However, when one is considering a course of action based on putting oneself in the position of the victim, one is now in a position that excludes knowledge of the outcome.

For example, if someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night, it is possible that they may be harmless and only wish to steal a few dollars and commit injury to none.

But as you awaken in your bed to the tinkling of glass, you simply have no basis on which to evaluate the intentions of the intruder.

And if you begin to hallucinate content that the intruder is fairly benign and you will not shoot them on sight, then you are in the predicament of leaving the determination of what will happen to you and your children to a criminal who is already willing to break into your home in the middle of the night and steal your property.

Your only decision is whether to defend yourself or simply hope that the intruder is ultimately some nice guy, and therefore you have become a pacifist and vulnerable.

When this kid threw himself onto this woman in the confines of an elevator, she had no way of knowing how dangerous or psychotic he may be. At that juncture, were she armed or even unarmed, the only thing she can decide is either to defend herself with everything she's got, or hope that this strange male in a world of rape and murder is ultimately just a big dog that wants to lick her and wander off wagging its tail.

I know what I would tell my daughter.

Re: "If kissing stranger's breasts is no big deal then what is?"

Let's see, ... murder, child abuse, rape, violence, obesity, alcoholism, drug abuse, bird flu, poverty, pollution, ... , you get the picture.

As for what was the next step, if you read the stories you'll see there was no next step. It was, by all accounts, a stupid, immature, piggish impulse - he reached over and kissed the top of her exposed breasts. It took "less than a second". I think there are far more serious things to worry about. But then, according to one poster, I'm a "backward neandrathal", [sp] though, as "neandrathals" go, I like to think I'm more of a progressive, or forward "neandrathal".

I'm not saying what he did was ok. People have a right to be pissed off. I am suggesting many people are over reacting, letting their emotions get the better of them, and suggesting such things as stabbing, shooting, and deporting him (not necessarily in that order).

And I'm pointing out, again, that some are very quick on the draw when it comes to blaming anyone they think is a Muslim.

The lady should have led him around the elevator by his family jewels for awhile - and then finished him off with a lovely kiss, I mean kick to the groin.

Just for the record - men are pigs and dogs; it just so happens Muslims do not like pigs and dogs - no racism here, just treating all men the same when they act like pigs and dogs.

Jimbo,

Blaming? It happened, fool.

"This is why where you find broken windows you will find every manner of vice under the sun and moon. Because if people can break windows without retaliation, then they know the rules and they know what strategy to play."

Bill Whittle

www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/2007_05.html

[quote]When this kid threw himself onto this woman in the confines of an elevator, she had no way of knowing how dangerous or psychotic he may be. At that juncture, were she armed or even unarmed, the only thing she can decide is either to defend herself with everything she's got, or hope that this strange male in a world of rape and murder is ultimately just a big dog that wants to lick her and wander off wagging its tail.[/quote]

Wow! What an imagination

I agree with Jimbo & ET, some ethnic comments are way beyond MY line. Some of the feminist comments are just immature or maybe Charlie Manson has some new soul mates.

The kid did the crime and doing his time.. No story here. Piling-on may be considered a foul, careful now buzzards have ears.

Dammit, I thought I'd get to see boobies when I clicked on this link. :(

Anyone that touches a woman when she doesn't want to be touched deserves to meet an angry kingstonlad-type. Especially coming out of an elevator.

Sort of like, "Oy, mate, yer comin' wit us, try to smoyle on the way out."

Telling video from the aforementioned Dime a Dozen blog re: what a woman might expect in Iran

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L5ZQQDRdeAw

I am dismayed that Canadian neanderthals like Jimbo don't get it. This isn't about the fact that he is Iranian, although contrary to ET's absolution, his cultural origin may very well have been a factor.

It IS a big deal. Correct, it didn't proceed to a rape, battery or homicide. But that part is irrelevant. As has been pointed out several times, the victim OF AN ASSAULT has no way, in a confined space, to know the outcome. The girl DIDN'T attend Jimbo's bar where she might reasonably expect to be groped or otherwise similarly interfered with. Fortunately, the PHYSICAL outcome was benign; don't be too sure about the emotional. A colleague and I regularly confer on the rehabilitation matter of another colleague (female) who was threatened in a confined space, who after three years, several psychologists and psychiatrists, is still only marginally fit to return to work. There was no physical harm, not even a touch. The subsequent mental anguish of the event, however, is quite another story.
Context is everything in an assault. The offending student got off light (too light). The girl, maybe not.

"Are you suggesting only Muslims treat women badly? Or are you suggesting it's worse if Muslims do it?"

It's not clear whether the perp is Muslim. And yes, people of every race, group, etc., can and do behave badly. However, the Islamic ideology as stated in and taught from the trilogy is blatantly misogynistic and violent towards women. It is the only group whose violent and misogynist ideology (amongst other things) is institutionalized into law and politics in Islamic countries. This is fact.

It is ridiculous to state, as ET did, that belief and law have no bearing on behaviour. The facts and statistics prove otherwise.

Hey Skip, get a grip. If someone (your colleague) was that traumatized by this kind of minor incident, they have a different kind of problem, and, to quote Barbara Amiel commenting on a similar circumstance, they are scarcely equipped to handle life.

Then again, your referring to me as a neanderthal is deeply disturbing to me. I don't know if I can leave the house. I feel worthless, belittled, and I feel like crying. Do you think I can get the government to cover my disability? Or pay for my bubble? This feeling could last for years, if I can find the right psychiatrist. Can you refer me to the ones your colleague used? I'm hoping for permanent disability here. Ka-Ching! /sarc

This is a minor incident that would have been dealt with as an insensitive collegial prank had the male in question not been Iranian, and had his poor grasp of English not caused his unfortunate (but somewhat humorous, to those of us with a sense of humour) use of the phrase “You can’t expect all males to control themselves when the breasts are out”.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to change the bandages on my dragging knuckles. Then I'm going to try to leave the house and get to the Gym. Hopefully I'll be able to control myself if, with any luck, the breasts are out.

Despite ongoing calls for Shariah in western countries, it hasn't been implemented, at least not as far as offical government recognition. However, it matters little:

thetelegraph.co.uk

"No one in Government could possibly endorse the cruel denial of elementary freedoms to women. An absolutely basic value of the free and tolerant society in which most of us want to live is that every adult should be able to choose whom they will marry, where they will work, and what they will wear. No one who believes in liberal values (and every member of the Government insists that they are committed to those values) can accept that women should be denied an education, or should be bullied into marriages which they oppose, or denied the right to go outside their homes without being accompanied by, or getting permission from, a male relative. Yet that is precisely what is happening in some of the tightly knit immigrant communities in Britain."

"The brutal coercion of women has been aided and abetted by Government policy, and thus by the ministers who make and implement it. The attitude of the state to those who would deny women fundamental freedoms should be one of active engagement to prevent any such appalling abuse: it should be an aggressive campaign to ensure that the law is enforced and that illegal coercion of women is prevented; and to ensure that "traditional" attitudes change. People who come from cultures where coercive behaviour towards women is the norm should be made to realise that it will not be tolerated in this country."

Did you read the last line ET, et al?

"this kind of minor incident" See, there you go. Neanderthal fits. Wear it in pride. Be thankful you won't be the one called upon to clean up the messes this attitude creates, not that you'd be able to. Oh, so sorry, ad hominem attack. Tough.

First person observation from someone in North Vancouver.

**holdfast February 3, 2008 at

Don’t worry - we’ll be seeing a lot more of this in the near future. I had the misfortune of staffing a free legal clinic in North Vancouver, BC (huge Iranian community) and the lack of impulse control among Iranians is staggering.

Sure there are plenty of scumbags born in Canada, but the thing that struck me is that most of the Iranian miscreants I dealt with came from prosperous, complete and seemingly healthy families, whereas most of the Canadian-born criminals were from poor, single-parent, etc families (not that having a rough family life is an excuse for crime, but it is a pretty reliable indicator).

Now, I wasn’t dealing with anything as serious as sexual assault, but we saw a lot of simple assault and shoplifting. My assumption at the time was that a lot of folks were acting out because for the first time they were not subject to the rigid controls and barbaric punishment of the Islamic Republic.

Shoplifting was what I saw the most of - most of it was really stupid, low value items (often booze) stolen in such an incompetent manner as to almost guarantee being caught.
================================

Oppressive culture. No *religious police* around so let*s go hog wild. Ooops, a pun. = TG

Not getting your hand chopped off is a bonus.

...95 postings on breast kissing.

A lot of lonely guys in here.

;-)

I'm a leg man myself.