That news makes me profoundly sad. Poor little children. I'm going home to hug my kids extra tight.

This story is so sad and I can't even think of the pain these children went through, but now being "Snow Angels" they will never have to go that again with these parents. God Bless them

Bob in Chaplin

I wonder if this guy will do as much time as Robert Latimer.

Such a sad story. If charges are somehow warranted, And the tragedy continues as Canada's race based justice system and Indian Industry metasticizes...

http://www.justice.gc.ca/en/dept/pub/fps/fpd/ch25.html#25

Hope those two little girls RIP.

This is all the more tragic in that it's not surprising. This kind of child neglect/abuse continues in significantly disproportionate numbers in Native communities, most often associated with alcohol. I guarantee it's happening, right now, in many homes.

Nobody seems to want to tackle the issue, because of the inevitable cries of racism. Also inevitable is the blame game, whereby the usual suspects (poverty, systemic racism, residential schools, the "white man", etc...) are blamed, followed by the demand for increased funding.

The man was described as a "good father" by the mother (who wasn't around). I don't know how they define "good father", but getting so drunk while supposedly caring for your kids that you take them out in -50 weather with only diapers and a t-shirt on, and then losing them in a field doesn't qualify by most people's standards.

It's time we were all judged by the same standards, and took responsibility for our actions, and some responsibilty for what goes on in our community. The blame game is handy for absolving guilt and justifying funding, while it perpetuates and exacerbates the problem.

I"m waiting for more details of the investigation, but the fact remains that this man decided to get drunk while caring for two toddlers. That's negligence, by any standard.

Posted by Rob... he won't do a second and that's the sad part, next time he's drinking won't ever remember those children.

Over at Dust My Broom, Jen says, "I cannot bear to hear these stories. What bothers me the most is why people focus on the fact that it was on a reserve. It could have happened anywhere."

Is that right, Jen? And you’re more upset about the reserves’ reputations than the tragic death of two innocent children? Talk about having one’s priorities in order.

Yes, "it could have happened anywhere", but it didn't, did it? I live very far from a reserve and have never heard of this happening near where I live. Unless the problem is properly diagnosed, it cannot be solved.

On another thread, I lamented the immaturity of far too many adults these days. We've absolved so many people of so many responsibilities, they behave more like spoiled children than the adults they biologically are.

The reserve system is like a giant play pen. To mix my metaphors, no wonder, in this apartheid, feudal system these kind of horrendous things happen. Until our Native People are EXPECTED to behave within the parameters of both the law and the responsible behaviour of adulthood, too many will, unfortunately, behave like the out of control kids—with guns, booze, drugs, and sex—they're allowed to. Not once, on CBC, have I heard the words "resposibility" or--horrors!--"blame" in connection with this story. I don't expect I will.

What a tragedy and what a horrendous waste for all of us.

see--CBCpravda says its happens to white folk too!! what a sad spin , of course these were kids wandering out after their dads going to JOBS.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan/story/2008/01/30/sask-weatherdeath.html

maybe we can see Jack Layton spouting off tomorrow about PMSH not going out and helping with the search.

zero responsibility with these "second nations"

Hey, you guys, relax.
They are "perhaps outraged to some extent"

Every one will be wearing rose coloured glasses on this one.

Does anyone connect this story and too many other ones like it with the standard narrative on the evils of residential schools? It is now almost always forgotten that many of the children who attended residential schools were *not* ripped from the arms of loving, caring parents and dragged off to the schools to be sadistically tortured by vicious priests and nuns.

Were there serious abuses in the native residential schools? Almost certainly; there were such abuses in almost every kind of residential school, even those prized by the British upper middle classes. Were native children strapped, punished, insulted, and humiliated? Yes, as were most children who attended schools in most of the twentieth century.

It is almost certainly true that conditions in native residential schools were harsher than those in other schools, but less so than is often thought. It is often overlooked that many parents willingly sent their children to residential schools for their protection and educational advancement, and the schools far more often than not met those needs.

For all their faults, and they were many, the native residential schools provided a refuge for many children from the dangerous and dysfunctional families and communities that they knew only as "home".

Hey, who cares? The important thing is global warming. Let's not allow a completely avoidable human tragedy to distract from what's IMPORTANT, shall we?

Why is it before I heard the whole story I immediately thought Indian?

Rob 6:27 excellent question, and I think we all know the answer. Not a chance in HELL.

Everyone will say what a tragedy this is and nobody, not native leaders, not anyone in any provincial government, and not anybody in the federal government will do a damned thing about it. They won't assist people on reserve, they won't demand personal responsibility from people on reserve, they won't do a damned thing.

Mr. Harper, get your government off its collective ass and please, describe how "Canada's New Government" intends to deal with the issues of native Canadians living on reserve.

Let's see, he was drunk; that's an illness now isn't it? He will be tried and sentenced in a "native court" and will have to spend some time in a tent with a smudge pot or some such thing. Isn't that how it goes?

Ah, two infants die on a reserve, and as sure as shit, one turns to Small Dead Animals and finds...an apologia for residential schools!

The poor little girls... When I first heard the initial details of this story I thought "Drunk Indian passed out with children in tow". Turns out my "racist" assumptions were correct. It's not racism when you can predict what happened, it's a rampant tragedy.

"It's not racism when you can predict what happened, it's a rampant tragedy."

Why can't it be both?

Re: "Everyone will say what a tragedy this is and nobody, not native leaders, not anyone in any provincial government, and not anybody in the federal government will do a damned thing about it." Posted by: djb

Well, not nobody, but your point is a good one.

-"Our leadership needs to wake up and take a good look at our First Nations communities." Margaret Roper, niece of Pearl Pauchay (children's grandmother).-

Hear hear. Don't hold your breath. Taking a good, hard, honest look is only the first step. Determining the real problems (mostly to do with alcoholism and other substance abuse), and actually doing something about them will be a challenge. Any solutions will take at least a generation (fetal alcohol syndrome for example).

The problems of alcoholism and substance abuse (and the abuse, violence, poor parenting, etc that go along with them) are hardly unique to First Nations communities, but they are epidemic within those communities, and not just on the reserves. Try taking a walk through downtown Edmonton on any given night.

The longer we refuse to say or do anything about the problems, or even admit they exist for fear of offending someone's sensibilities (or income), the longer it will take to make any progress, and the more tragedies, like this one, we'll all have to endure.

Drugs and alcohol are your only escape when you have no hope of a better life.

What hope is there in the staus quo? Phil Fontaine is no man of hope.

Damn him and those afraid of change!

Ah, two infants die on a reserve, and as sure as shit, one turns to Small Dead Animals and finds...

someone attempting to deflect attention from the fact that leftist race-baced identity politics tends to result in generations of broken families, welfare dependence, substance abuse, and innocent dead babies.

"Why can't it be both?"

because It is rampant... And so in this province, it is unfortunate that things like this happen almost exclusively in the first nations population. You must have missed my initial point.

All FN (and includes metis by the way) peoples of Canada (with the exception of the James Bay band, but not 100% sure if that is still true) have ample access to counseling services in their area. Up to and including psychological services-free of charge. All they have to do is go into said agency and request funding in person. Don't even have to fill in endless forms.
Just need their status card. It's done for them.
All they have to do is the personal therapy work.

In regards to the remote reserves or villages; educational, medical, counseling, and legal representative are flown in on a regular basis and or when requested.

FN children are not allowed -by law- to be taken from their family of origins, by anyone. No matter what either, now how messed is that?
EVEN when physical or sexual abuse is evident...
I personally know of one case where this went down. CA took the kids out of danger and the Band made them return them to their 'home' of origin.

Sad.

This is NOT the current government's policy either, it's been that way for quite a while now.

This is the legacy of the liberal policy of "helping" the FN peoples.

I wonder if this father will quit drinking now.

9 $BILLION a year ?

"leftist race-baced identity politics tends to result in generations of broken families, welfare dependence, substance abuse, and innocent dead babies."

Immediate resort to pat explanations based on simplistic binary views of the world -- at least you SDA people are consistent.

The myriad problems found on the FN reserves aren't the result of "leftist" identity politics; they're the consequence of several centuries worth of policies that have oscillated between the flawed strategy of paternalism and the equally flawed strategy of assimilation.

Moving towards recognition of FN self-governance -- now that's a truly innovative approach, and it's got supporters on both sides of your precious left-right partisan dichotomy.

Re: --"It's not racism when you can predict what happened, it's a rampant tragedy." Why can't it be both? Posted by: Risa at January 30, 2008 9:49 PM--

Pointing out that problems inevitably leading to tragedies like this are epidemic in First Nation communities this isn't racism. It's fact. We need to admit it, and ask why. Refusing to admit it, because we're afraid of offending people, and holding different communities to different standards is racism, and perpetuates the problems.

This is an opinion (admittedly not politically correct) , but I believe the special treatment and status afforded First Nations peoples serve to create these kinds of problems.

It's amazing what seeing things from a different perspective can reveal. My girlfriend is a relatively recent immigrant to Canada, and works two low-paying jobs to get by. I've met a lot of other immigrants from her community. They're dumfounded when they hear Natives complaining about unfair treatment.

From her perspective, the Native people get off easy - free education, medical, dentist, etc. There are no job opportunities in her home country, and lots here. She looks for jobs on the government sites, and sees "special consideration may be given to First Nation peoples". The first thing that comes to these newcomers minds is, "why don't the Natives quit complaining and do something about it - quit drinking/drugs, take advantage of their opportunities, and get a job like us? "

That's where their naivety comes in, for they don't know that, in our recent past and current political climate, complaining and blaming others is part of the culture, the game, and it's a lot easier than working, and more comforting than admitting responsibility.

Do I believe the problems have to do with anyone's race? - no. I do believe it has to do largely with special treatment, and the "soft racism of lowered expectations". I believe it has to do with the "throw money at problems" mentality that pervades politics. It means we reward pitiful behaviour (thereby legitimizing and encouraging it) while penalizing initiative and hard work (through increased taxes).

As you can tell, this tragedy has really gotten to me, and many others. I wish I could do something to ensure it doesn't happen again. If it takes offending someone's sensibilities - so be it.

Hmm, Risa is out hunting for racists. M'kay Risa, lemme ax you something:

If public welfare money wasn't paying for this guy's booze (and paying to fly it in to the rez too), would the two little girls be dead today?

See, I and many others think the answer to that question is no. He wouldn't be getting that drunk because he'd have to get up and go to work the next morning to pay for his house and his car and his kid's upkeep. Just like the rest of us. And just like the rest of us, he'd be keeping his kids safe and warm and they'd be alive right now.

I personally think the single biggest problem Canadian Indians have is the government giving them juuuust enough incentive to keep them living exactly the way they do, where they do. Which quite naturally leads to our current nightmare-of-the-week.

And, not to put too fine a point on it, costs me the tax payer almost $10 billion a year. I'm paying out BIG TIME for these people to live worse than I keep my dog. Much worse.

Meanwhile Dalton McGuinty plays footsie with the friggin' Mohawk Warrior/Smuggler Society over bogus land claims so a couple of slimy creeps can own an Indian casino on Number 6 highway in Caledonia.

M'kay, ducky? Now go ahead and call me a racist. Oh go on. You know you want to.

"As you can tell, this tragedy has really gotten to me, and many others. I wish I could do something to ensure it doesn't happen again. If it takes offending someone's sensibilities - so be it."

I agree entirely. The problems on reserve need to be addressed by the people living on reserve.

But when major political parties and native leadership fight in court to excuse band members from the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, what chance in Hell do people like these unfortunate young girls have?

Re: "The myriad problems found on the FN reserves aren't the result of "leftist" identity politics; they're the consequence of several centuries worth of policies that have oscillated between the flawed strategy of paternalism and the equally flawed strategy of assimilation." - Risa

Snap out of it Risa. This incident is the consequence of disgustingly poor parenting, an alcoholic father getting so drunk while supposedly caring for two toddlers that he took them outside in -50 weather wearing almost no clothing, resulting in their deaths.

The bigger "myriad" problems are the result of people like you refusing to place responsibility where it belongs.

[quote]someone attempting to deflect attention from the fact that leftist race-baced identity politics tends to result in generations of broken families, welfare dependence, substance abuse, and innocent dead babies.[/quote]

Well Said Kate,
We have children locked in parked cars @ 115deg and literally COOKED. Gates to swimming pools left open.. the list goes on

[quote] I believe it has to do with the "throw money at problems" mentality that pervades politics [/quote]

Jimbo,
To throw money at a social problem "is" a form of racism practiced by the elite.

I do not really care what or why they say the problem is. The SOB either left his kids alone and they followed him out the door or he tried to take them across a field at very cold temperatures with the wind blowing. It doesn't take no friggin rocket scientist to know if you are not dressed properly you will FREEZE to DEATH.

Just this morning in Calgary a woman left 2 babies in a SUV with the engine off at -27*c when she took her 5 year old for a doctors appointment. Where was her friggin head at. These 2 did not die because 2 policemen seen them.

You could carry examples like this all night. If people are going to have kids in there family they should have the integrity to raise them with care and attention into adulthood.

In my opinion these babies did not even have a chance at life because of stupidity of the adult caretaker. Merle Underwood.

Re: "Jimbo,
To throw money at a social problem "is" a form of racism practiced by the elite."

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. If the social problem you're referring to has to do with race, and if by "elite" you're referring to the "people" (ie: government), yes, I suppose so.

In the lastest edition of the Winnipeg Free Press, there was a column by Lindor Reynolds who told the story of six Winnipeg children, whose mother is in jail after being accused of running a child prostitution ring. These kids are in danger of being yanked from their long-term foster home and moved to a reserve where they have never lived. These kids have been raped, threatened and even now have problems with bed wetting, food hoarding, etc. As Reynolds states, "They're the latest pawns in a child welfare system that seems to put culture and "family" ahead of the needs of the child." Guess where these poor kids will be in a year or two (if they make it that long). Disgusting.

Like the mother of 6, who left her perfectly healthy three week old baby with her other children (all under the age of 10 or 12) in care of this infant... but then she finally showed up a week or so later and all was forgiven and she didn't lose her children.

Then a few weeks later "surprise and sadness", the baby was found to be completely paralyzed from the neck down.

Guess who really pays besides the money for her care she will require for the rest of her life.

That child.
And maybe the others when they grow up and realize what happened. THEY may have guilt about being forced to preform a function way beyond their abilities and age.

But you know I just could be expressing my "simplistic binary view of the world" here...yeah.

My all-time favorite stupid-ass avoidable tragedy is toddlers drowning in five gallon pails.

Now, you would think something like that would be a one in a million fluke accident, but you'd be wrong. Happens all the time in the seedier sections of Phoenix Arizona. No matter how often the city send out warnings, no matter how much they talk about it on TV, sure enough a month or two goes by and another baby drowns in a half full five gallon pail. Same cultural group every time too, but it'd be racist of me to mention which one. Not Indians though!

Backing over the baby with the family fliver is quite popular with this non-Indian group as well. Usually those ones don't die, as Phoenix has quite good trauma units. They just get mangled.

And as Phillip says there's the kid left in the hot car trick, even White people do that one. Actually if I remember right, white people do that one more often. They aren't drunk (sobriety spot checks work!), just dumb like a bag of hammers. Because of drugs, usually.

Is race the thread that connect all these? Nope. WELFARE! Too many kids, too many brain cells killed by recreational substances, both made affordable by entitlements. See Risa? Welfare makes non-Indians stupid too.

Possibly cutting welfare would be a good idea, yes? Save the handout for the guy with no legs. It'd be cheaper, and maybe cut down on dead toddlers.

Or we could keep doing what we know doesn't work, just so Risa won't call us racist.

we spend 100k per person and this is the crap that ensues.

"Is race the thread that connect all these? Nope. WELFARE!"

Hey, you mean the problem is welfare as in paternalism? Guess what, genius? That's exactly what I said.

So if it's welfare and not "race" that's the connecting thread, why would certain folks here hear the story on the radio and immediate think "Native"? Did they also hear the story about the Calgary woman and think the same thing? Maybe you should chastise them too for pointing outing "race" rather than welfare.

In fact, in your drowned babies in Phoenix story, you say you can't name the "cultural group" involved because that'd be racist. But why name them at all, if their "race" is irrelevant? When it's whites leaving babies in cars, then suddenly there's no need to mention race because it's actually about welfare. But when it's FN...well, we can see the double-standard clearly on this thread, can't we?

The funny thing is, "leftists"--as in genuine, on-the-ground, grassroots "leftists," not the Liberal party, which you folks seem to think represents the "left"--have been talking about the need for empowerment rather than handouts for decades now. So you're actually echoing them -- which is strange, because usually on SDA, you just echo each other.

Some Questions need answering

Does this reserve control it's own welfare agency and if so where was the people employed there to look after these cases? Where was or is the Mother? Did this man's family know of his drinking problem and why did they do nothing? Why is Mervin Brass on Rawlco radio in Saskatoon reporting on the condition of housing on the reserve? Why is Mervin Brass talking about culture in his news report and not personal responsibility? Was this man receiving WELFARE and why was he not working? Where is Chief Lawrence Joseph and why no comments by him?
This reminds me of a long list of horrible things in INDIAN COUNTRY, The Keepness tragedy, where is that little girl? The baby born in a toilet at Wal-Mart, the baby on Montreal Lake band assaulted and rendered brain damaged by a drunk, the list goes on and on.
This man will be transferred to a hospital in Saskatoon shortly. He should be welcomed here and told what a piece of sh t he is. This man must GO TO JAIL for what he has done.

When it comes to taking responsibility for this tragety, there is a whole lot of people who can share in the blame, from the idiot drunk all the way up to the (latest) Great White Chief in Ottawa.
Let me explain: A parent is responsible for their child. That is the number 1 fact. The band and it's council are responsible to see that the youngest members of their band get the care that they need and deserve. The First Nations Assembly or whatever their title is need to take responsibility to ensure that the bands are operated properly and take care of their own people. It goes without saying that Chief's meetings shouldn't be held on cruise ships either. And finally the great government in Ottawa bear the responsibility of seeing how the taxpayer's dollars are spent at Indian Affairs and if I may add, bare the blame for not scrapping the entire system and putting natives into Canada as citizens and not "special needs" cases.

As for the drunken murdering slob: Ensure the full force of the judicial system is used.

Well Risa, usually when you smell shite you look toward the manure pile. It -could- have been some super duper rich white guy on his palatial retreat in Norther Saskatchewan that got so alcohol poisoned he took two little babies OUTSIDE in -50C conditions to freeze to death (that took about 10 minutes, max incidentally). I mean, look at Britney Spears.

So sure, it could possibly be a White guy that did that, but statistically speaking is it likely?

Nope.

And that, my dear Risa, is the core of the issue isn't it? Child and infant mortality on government supported Indian reserves is astronomically, stupidly, hideously higher than any other group in Canada, bar none. Ten times the rate of the worst, crappiest neighborhood in Toronto with hot and cold running drug dealers, street gangs and friggin' crack houses.

I see you grasped my point regarding the race issue. Congratulations, you have achieved enlightenment. Its illegal Mexicans, incidentally. Mexicans illegals in Arizona have a higher than average child and infant mortality rate in spite of unfettered access to some of the best medical care in the entire world. Higher than -legal- Mexicans, 'cause legal Mexicans WORK for their money. Guess what Arizona group has a higher mortality rate than the Mexicans? Yes that's right, Indians on the Rez!

I should note at this point that the Indians of Northern Sask and the Indians of Arizona share about as much genetic and cultural heritage as they do with a Scots Highlander. Kinda puts paid to the whole race argument, wouldn't you say?

As I said before, the connecting thread is government payouts that keep people living in these remote reservations, where there is nothing to do and nothing but time to do it in.

Paternalism is where the Noble White Man must look after the plucky yet inferior Red Man. That's real racism. Such a policy would IMPROVE the current situation, because the people administering it would actually care a damn what happened to the Indians. I say that only to illuminate how completely destructive the current policy actually is.

Racism is a non-functional policy for other, equally compelling reasons.

Risa. I'm sure we have some common ground here. But laying the blame for this tragedy at the feet of "paternalism" is strikingly ironic, given the children deaths were cause by lack of care from their father. A little "paternalism" in this case would have been a good thing, and since they weren't going to get it from their father, and since their mother was out partying, who is left to do it?

Self Government wouldn't have helped either. According to the chief, attempts were made to have the reserve designated a "dry reserve", but there was resistance from council members concerned that if they voted for it, they would be voted out of office next election, because there are so many drinkers there.

This tragedy is profoundly sad, but I disagree with news stories calling it "shocking". Something was, and still is, bound to happen, and I'm resigned to hearing more tragic stories like this. It's inevitable. I hope this one at least spurs some into taking some positive steps. It's too late for those little girls, but not for the rest of us. It's up to you, Risa, me, and the rest of us to do what we can, and stop avoiding our responsibility.

Beautiful photo of the family in the Ottawa Sun.
On my first visits to Winnipeg, Saskatoon and Vancouver, I saw evidence of Indians being drunk totally out of their minds. That's not to say that those of you who live in cities haven't seen whites as drunk. But, I remember men and women so totally blasted that there was no way they would have known if they were on fire, let alone freezing to death.
There was a reason why in the old days being banned from purchasing alcohol was called being put on the 'Indian list'.
What's the use of calling him names? He will have absolutely no memory of what he did. None.

The niece of the grandmother is quoted as saying:
"It just breaks my heart to know that these children are the results of what is going on in our community. These kids are going to die in vain.

"Our leadership needs to wake up and take a good look at our First Nations communities."

Obviously, she doesn't believe they can provide protection for their children themselves. As a
small closed community, that is a sad indictment.

In as crazy a reaction as some of the posts here, if I were mayor of a native community I'd have a prohibition police force.

Gellen, that is the one sure-fire cure for alcoholism I never see mentioned by the likes of Risa, our noble racism monitor. Its a remote reserve, booze gets DELIVERED. If the public drunkenness laws already on the books were merely enforced, by the reserve leadership not some RCMP flying squad, we wouldn't be having this problem.

Problem is, the reserve "leadership" is no better than the drunk guy. Pretty much every adult in the place is in the same shape. There's nobody to provide any kind of bootstrapping because they've all got alcohol induced brain damage. The permanent kind you don't get better from Risa, look it up. It'll scunner you.

That's why I like the "removing the welfare" method. Its hard to have booze delivered when there's no money. However it is easier to hunt when you aren't having the DTs from missing your good friend Johny Walker (Red).

Oh Come on guys, alcohol prohibition is going to do absolutely NOTHING for these communities, apart from spurring on the basement bootleggers and back alley distillers. The answer is in treatment...not deprivation. Tell a smoker that there is no such thing as smoking anymore...trust me, before long they'll be growing their own tobacco (YES, I'm a smoker) to feed their habit. Try the same tactic with a meth addict...it just doesn't work that way.

It's very funny, reading through these comments, how some are so offended by words that appear racist. If the government support, going directly into the pockets of the majority of the FN communities, comes directly from the "working class" paychecks, how can we not feel slightly responsible for (or motivated to) trying to fix the problem. Perhaps if we were ALL self-sufficient, there would be justification for our sitting back (governmentally speaking) and doing absolutely nothing about the situation and conditions that persist in the reservation communities.

Now, with that being said...I'm going to light a candle for these two little girls, so they can find their way to their maker.

[quote]On my first visits to Winnipeg, Saskatoon and Vancouver, I saw evidence of Indians being drunk totally out of their minds. That's not to say that those of you who live in cities haven't seen whites as drunk. But, I remember men and women so totally blasted that there was no way they would have known if they were on fire, let alone freezing to death.[/quote]

Gellen,
If you visited Tokyo you would find every businessman, in a suit, in that same condition by 7PM everyday. Its not welfare or Class. It’s a missing link to self worth or loathing. Banning alcohol is a band-aid.

BTW : A full blood Apache told me that Indian affairs give native high school Grad’s a choice between 4 years of collage OR a new 4WD Pickup. The sad part is they think its their fault they picked the truck.

PGS - Yes, that's what I thought when I saw them - no self-worth, no hope, no future. It was one of my saddest moments as a Canadian because even during the depression when we had nothing, there was a spark of hope for the future. Even if the future turned out to be a world war.
Re alcohol shipped in to remote areas, my son had his first visit to the north last fall and told me the community was 'dry'. A few weeks later the RCMP officer he had seen on the street was shot to death by a 'drunk'. Even a band-aid solution is better than nothing.
How do you give people hope?

You don't "give" people hope. You teach them to earn it for themselves.

You've got it, Kate. I was waiting to see what people would say. They have no hope, and we can't give them hope, so we give them money. When that doesn't work, we give them more money.

Re: "You don't "give" people hope. You teach them to earn it for themselves." - Kate

Bang on. That goes hand in hand with taking responsibility. When you take responsibility, you can take some credit when something good happens. That's when hope arrives - when you realize you can make things better - that it's up to you.

Unfortunately, the blame game continues, abetted by the media. Tonight on CTV news, Lloyd's lead in contained this nugget "some people are suggesting he's (the father) a victim in all this too". ...... Right Lloyd.

As for banning alcohol - I think it's a critical first step that doesn't solve the problems, but will make a big difference in many people's lives, not the least a generation of children. It's also a lot easier to quit, even with treatment, when it's not openly consumed everywhere around you.

[quote]As for banning alcohol - I think it's a critical first step that doesn't solve the problems, but will make a big difference in many people's lives, not the least a generation of children. It's also a lot easier to quit, even with treatment, when it's not openly consumed everywhere around you.[/quote]

"The Idiot is the one that keeps repeating the same experiment expecting differant results". (Einstein)para

One of most successful tools of project management is to first define what you don't want and what doesn't work.
The Academia teach & practice perfection in the Planning stage. I disagree. You start with what you know and the order & the objectives will become self evident with the 101 problems every project encounters

You do not want to damage the tribal customs & culture. That is fundemental IMO

BTW: Did you Know that some in the South think the civil war ended in a cease fire!

Where do you begin...
I am sick to death over imagining those poor, helpless, underdressed girls freezing to death.
Blame, blame, blame. Certainly not the father, he was drunk on the white man's booze and didn't know any better. Certainly not the mother, she wasn't there. Where was the mother? Certainly not the grandmother, she is devastated at the tragedy. Certainly not the auntie, she was living in a sub-standard house, in sub-standard conditions because the government doesn't give them enough. Certainly not the Chief because he was tucked in his warm bed dreaming of self government paid for by the rest of Canadians. To me self government would mean they raise their own money. I would be all for self government. Stop giving any money to FN and let them self govern all they want. For how many hundreds of years can you keep playing the blame game? If the Native living conditions are so bad because of the white man, go back to living like you did, with no electricity, no food unless you grew or hunted for it and self built shelters. STOP BLAMING US FOR YOUR LAZINESS. I once watched a Native "protest" at a Western Premiers conference and they basically held their signs and did a little dance/chanting for about 15 minutes. Probably the most work any of them had done all year. I just shook my head as I went back to my $5 an hour job. (This was about 10 years ago and that was the only work I could find. Thankfully I took out a loan and went back to school to better myself. Something that I am more than willing to pay for any Native member of our society to do, apparently.)
Well, we are the government and it sickens me that I pay (conservatively estimated) 30% of my wages to taxes so that we can send more money to the Natives (oops, not politically correct, or is it?) They need more money. When I need more money, I work for it. I guess that's racism too. My ancestors came here and worked hard by farming their 160 acres in misquito infested MB and low and behold, they didn't complain, they didn't look for handouts, they didn't blame others for their hardships.
Oh, I should save room for others.
It is sad, sad news. I feel sorry for those little girls and I feel sorry for their father having to deal with what has happened. It is his fault. It is his responsibility. It should be his wake up call. After he gets out of jail, I hope he can make a better life for himself. I have moved from my home province to find better work and I think it is time the Natives realized they can move to save themselves.

The aunt was living in a sub-standard home and in sub-standard conditions because the govt didn't give them enough money, Katherine? Which govt would that be?
I gave my granddaughter and her husband a hand-up with $20,000. down-payment on a modest bungalow and they and their three children are doing very well. 'Course, the husband is working two jobs and the mother is a stay-at-home mom. Did I say neither drank?

if those two precious young beings were given the chance to live the lives they deserved to live,as you all have, would you want them to see the comments you have all posted?

Hard to believe the police are "contemplating" laying charges.If I did this in my town the cops wouldn't have time to lay charges,I would be strung up from the nearest tree. Double standard... you bet.