Welcome to the world of the lowest common everything. Racist Canada now official.

Lets start a white only school. Now that's racist

Only in liberal Toronto would this insanity be possible. How do you help underperforming students? Put them all together in the same room? So they can conclude that they are not underperforming, but in fact conforming to the norm?

Instead of wasting money on "afro-centric" skools were their just going to teach them a fuller cirriculum of "Hate Whitey-Blame Whitey" agit-prop,why not organize student trips back to Africa.

Two week camping excursions to such African wonderlands like say,Zimbabwe,Somalia,Kenya,the Congo or the Sudan will probably be enough to convince every Blax student the importance of getting an education.

Or maybe they don't have to be taken all the way to Africa,perhaps a little closer to home might be appropriate.

Two week "going native" junkets to Trench Town in Jamaica,or a Brazilian "favela" will surely be enough of an eye opener to get the dropout rate amongst Toronto Blax down to ZERO.

So how do they propose to make Math Afro-centric?

Perhaps they will couch word problems in environmental situations...

"If you and your 4 of homies have 9mm Browning High powers holding 10 rounds each and the other Crew has 2 illegal 13 Round Sig saurs, one 30 round Uzi and an MP5 with 2 more 30 round clips. How many more rounds than your gang does the other crew have?"

African? Where is Jamaica?

Leave it to the Far Left to take a regressive thing and label it "progressive".

Apartheid/segregation and treating people differently, rather than as equals, with equal potential as human beings, is wrong, wrong, wrong.

It's those who believe in apartheid/segregation and unequal treatment who are the racists, not those of us who have the guts to say something that's wrong and racist is wrong and racist.

I, as someone who was fully integrated into regular, ordinary classes despite hearing impairment, do not believe in segregation. It's wrong and prejudicial to separate people on the basis of skin color or whatever, dogmatically, politically-correctly assuming that they have different potential for achievement and so on.

But the Far Left is unenlightened, unsophisticated, prejudiced and divisive, so it's not surprising that they're forging backwards in time to unenlighenment, ignorance, prejucice, intolerance...

Oops- misspellings corrected in last paragraph:

(unenlightened... prejudice)

Guess I type fast and make more typos when I'm thumping the Far Left for its terrible faults! At least my mistakes are honest and I admit and correct them, unlike the Far Left, who sticks by what's wrong and makes it even worse!

I have an idea. Let's hold the delinquent fathers of these children criminally and socially responsible for the crimes of their non-parented offspring. It is about time that men of certain groups are made to realize that young women are not their personal sperm depositories.

Now, before you start calling me a racist, I have been a single father of 3 daughters for over 12 years. I have sacrificed career, money and opportunity to be near my children. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with living up to one's responsibility.

If you plant the seed, you are responsible for the deed.

Brainless. A step backward. Apartheid. Right here in Canada, in the worst possible place, Toronto.Are they vying to become the most ghettoized place in Canada?

It seems reasonable to offer the same classic education curriculum to all students in one public system. Ethnicity or religion should not be factored in or interfere with that basic education.
It would act as a stepping stone to better understanding and acceptance on all fronts, insuring a better chance of integration into the mainstream and ultimately a civil society.

If it's understanding, equality, acceptance, this will not work.

Dunderheads!
Speaking of Dunderheads, McGuinty will be in a bit of a bind on this one since he won the election on a one issue platform, Public Schools only, no religious segregation for anyone except Roman Catholics. Where will the funding come from? If it isn't adequate, the kids will not have the proper programs and will be further marginalized.

Alleviating problems in Society is only the public policy of the left; words to say to the media but for which the left has actually no intent of actioning.

In truth, the left actually works to aggravate the problems, thus justifying even more leftist policies in order to solve them.

This has been said by many on this blog before, and written in many books for many years. I don't pretend to have any special insight here, but just remind everyone that this is what the left does, what it always does and why we see the same crap from them all the time!

Listen to their words and all will be well.

Don't mind their actions, who are you to judge them anyways!

I spell it "Realist"

As a former teacher in a remote aboriginal village, the story rings true. The bigger the chip on the shoulder, the faster is the slide to failure.

And when it comes time to prove the system works, the Superintendent just orders the teachers to "arrange" the grades to show the required progress.

To their credit, the ont gov't announced that they would NOT provide extra funding for any race based school.

Canada Afrocentric school sparks debate
...."Out of the 100 or so families I worked with in Malvern, I would say 80% of the families were non-supportive of their children's education. When you'd go into a lot of the houses, there was a lot of yelling and arguing. There were lots of latchkey kids."....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7217212.stm

...'a lot of yelling and arguing'...outside the home too.

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_19093.aspx

Is it any wonder the dropout rate is so high. What kid can, or even wants to study at home with all that noise going on?

This was discussed on talk radio in Ottawa this morning. Steve Madely, the host of CFRA's morning show, was quoting the Toronto school board supporters of this school as saying something like "they believe that students learn better when surrounded by those from a similar background" (not an exact quote, but that was the gist of it).

I couldn't believe my ears. These are supposed to be liberals? Where are the multiculturalists, rushing to the rescue? I'd like to see someone try to create a "whites only" school using that as a justification.

There is soooo much wrong with this, both in strategy and implementation.

Strategy wise, yes I also agree that I think this is a mistake. It is segregation.....geez the whole US busing controversy was about getting black kids to white schools. Yes it is a different environment there in terms of funding schools, but how isnt this a step backward?

But hey maybe united colours of bennetton schools is just a romanticized notion. Although my kids seem to have no issue being one of a minority of minorities in school.

What is the problem that is being solved...yes there is the obvious point of drop out rates, because nobody fails. Yes kids should finish their education etc. But there has been no real plan put in place. Who is for, what will it solve, will it be only african canadian teachers, are there issues between canadian born and immigrant "black" kids. Is there a difference between carribean and african kids, is it an issue of economic background.

How will you prevent the "hawthorne effect" here. Will the be cherry picking who comes in....i.e. screening for behaviour and inteeligence. One of the reasons why good schools remain good schools is that they attract good students. Need to filter out that effect.

If I were on the board I would have been highly skeptical of this. But here is the heresy. I am open to experimentation. I think that innovation needs to be tried. BUT there has to be a plan and there have to be benchmarks, there has to be goals...the problem you are trying to solve. You need to set the terms so that you can review the results because it is, quite frankly, off strategy from how education should be run.

I dont see a plan yet. I see too many bromides and I am troubled by the pollyannaish idea that if it was just black kids together then they would improve. Of course how you reintegrate these kids back into the mainstream is another question.

Right now this is looking like a really bad idea....of course they already have a gay school in Ontario.....so who knows.

Wonder what the reaction would be for a whites only school.

Wonder what the excuses will be when this fails.

John G “Where are the multiculturalists, rushing to the rescue?”

But this is multi-culti behaviour … it is the antithesis of assimilation. It creates community silos or ghettos. That’s what Librano$ strive for, then they can get each silo addicted to government largess and buy their votes. That is what identity politics is all about.

If the TronnaSkoolBord has a 25% drop-out rate, that spells failure!

Make no mistake about it! This move is all about politics and has nothing whatsoever to do with improving things in the educational system.

Well ... unless you're part of the Toronto school system as an administrator or social worker or maybe as a teacher who does not want to be held accountable for results. That'll improve things for them by giving them a clear excuse for failing to do what they are supposed to do. And increase budgets and head counts in the ranks at the same time. Win Win situation for them. But for the students? The public?

Not so much win anything there!

Just as major urban centers in the US discovered when their schools became ghetoized ... the performance and standards went into a downward spiral.

What was the solution the politicians tried after that? Bussing!

Wait for it!

I remember my university days and being appalled at the course work that the education students took. Mickey mouse courses for the most part, and most of the students took 7 to 10 years to finish a program that you and I could finish in half that time. As a child I had no respect for 90% of the teachers and even less for them now. I know several good 'old school' teachers that have quit in disgust - and the kids paid the price of their leaving.

This isn't about race, folks. This is about a group of pooch screwing public servants serving us crap and telling us it's ice cream. We shouldn't let them get away with it. Those kids are failures because their teachers are too.

We need to put the strap and discipline back in public schools, and replace the leather elbows and dead wood with teachers that want to succeed.

Truth be told, MOST of our public schools suck, and the smart thing to do is either home school your kids or put them into private schools.

"Watch for the next step in this brave new social scheme - redefining academic standards to "normalize" Afro-achievement."

Bang on there, Kate. It'll be interesting to see how the media spin it.

Missi Matt, the failure would be blamed on the 'whites' of course.

Ok, so now I am lost.
Does this mean racial profiling is ok too?

Wonder what the excuses will be when this fails.

Lack of funding.
Not enough black-teachers role models.
Student/teacher ratio too high.
Not enough black-administrators involved in the planning and development of the curriculum.
Three years is too short a time frame to collect and study results and determine its effectiveness.
Not enough after-school programs.
Bussing because school not located in their area.
Curriculum and student performance benchmarks still too Euro-focused.
Whites are just plain racist.

That's two votes for that, Lookout.

So to sum it up:

Attempting to cite the BENEFITS of an all black school is "progressive",

attempting to cite the DRAWBACKS of an all black school is "racist".

Don't you love the one sided conversations our "progressive" society "tolerates".

Getting to the point where being called a racist is a badge of honor and integrity these days. -Actual- racists appear to have disappeared entirely, so these Toronto race huckster knobs have expanded the category to anyone with a brain who gives a crap about kids.

Thank GOD I left Toronto! I'm going outside to kiss the frozen Hamilton soil now, yep you betcha.

When you segregate the students, you also get to segregate the statistics.

The Toronto School Board overall failure rate of 25% will suddenly improve. Failure rates at the afro-centric school will be 'manipulated' to adjust rates to a more "culturally sensitive" level. Everybody wins!

Anybody have an idea as to what the Toronto Catholic District School Board failure rate might be?

(Thanks, ET and otter.

Yes, I usually ignore this person, but it's a different thing entirely when he misquotes me. This is, in fact, libel, "a published, false statement damaging to a person's reputation".

This person has a right to call me "dummy" but not to quote me as saying it--and other things--if I didn't. There's a big difference.

As I said, I think this apparently disturbed person should be given the shove.)

Jim; could not have said it any better.
Kate; your right, RACIST. You beet us all to the punch.
I was taught in a 3 room school house with 3 teacher and multi mixed 1 thru 9 with over 100 students attending. It was the job of older kids that were done there work to teach and help the younger ones thru their work. We had baseball, soccer, skating rink, playground and 10 acres of bush to play in.

None of ever stepped to far over the line because you got the belt at school as well as at home. I've seen these people from time to time over the years and everyone of them seem to succeed in life.
I think that about 10 actually graduated, usually at 16 we left home and joined the workforce and were treated as an adult.

This shit never worked with the Indians and it will not work here. My suggestion is to tell the people involved in this scam is to look around, "SEGRAGATION DOES NOT WORK". Merle Underwood.

john “When you segregate the students, you also get to segregate the statistics.” Good point !!!

Ironically, it is conservatives who want to treat everyone equally, as in equal opportunity NOT equal outcomes … equal outcomes are impossible unless manipulated. By doing as Kate says “normalize Afro-achievement”

McGuinty has not supported Black schools but as with Caledonia he is complicit by not upholding the same standards for all.

McGuinty is a clone of Chrétien, just look happy .. blame someone else … blame the Feds for Caledonia, blame the Americans for guns on our streets, blame the School Board for apartheid; never accept responsibility, never show leadership. There is no need for McGuinty to take the risks of leadership because the Ontario voter will re-elect him anyway.

Focus kids. This one issue has nothing to do with mcliar. It is strictly a trawna issue. Private schools exist throughout the province, and if the idiots prefer to balkanize their system, who cares.

Keep your powder dry, for the time will come soon enough. I am just waiting for him to increase the PST.

BTW, the program in my class which I used very successfully with my black students was altogether Eurocentric. E.g., British novels read aloud and studied in reading. They loved them! There was a progression of skills to be mastered and regular practice and homework expectations. (The latter was very hard to implement because of minimal home support.) I taught formal grammar—in innovative ways—and the favourite incentive was a high tea party, with china cups, or a Teddy Bear's Picnic!

My boys made excellent gains, within their abilities, because I altogether rejected "the soft racism of low expectations". A pox on that. It makes me sick to see wasted lives because of the appeasing carried out by so many idiots in the system. My students and I proved over and over again that high behavioural and academic expectations could make a real—and really positive—difference. Did the administration support me and my program? No. Despite invitations to join us, not one administrator visited the class to see what we were doing—the kids were always enthusiastic to show off certain of our techniques, and did with other visitors. Nor would administration weigh in if extra discipline was needed.

In my board, I don’t see anything other than a scatter gun, politically correct approach to the problems of black students. I believe that my approach—and I’m sure there are other teachers like me—could be called “best practice”. No one in authority—white, black, and in between, most are affirmative action hired toadies—bothered to discuss my approach or have me mentor other teachers to use it. (In days long ago, in another board, this was standard practice.)

I can confidently say that focusing on the problems and making excuses is the WORST thing the board can do. But, I predict that that’s just what the hair-brained, politically motivated board functionaries are planning. On the other hand—and it doesn’t need a whole lot of extra, super expensive resources—a strong Eurocentric curriculum—as in reading, writing, and arithmetic, in ENGLISH, not Swahili or Arabic—learned to mastery, along with high behavioural expectations, enforced with discipline, meaning no-nonsense consequences (yes, the kids might NOT like them!), would work wonders.

Public boards are so low on common sense and integrity and so high on political hot air, this scatter brained initiative is not only going to lose $ mega millions, it’s going to lose the productive lives of too many kids who deserve far better. We’re all going to be losers because of this discredited board’s colossal stupidity and hubris.

A brand new product from those gifted multiculturalists - educational ghettoism! Plus, the progressive magic decoder ring can transport society 40 years into the past in the bat of an eye!

I wonder, as part of the Afrocentric studies, if they will be teaching the 'Melanin and Melanin Theory?'

And can this sort of development be far behind?

Muslim schools to conduct own inspections
By Graeme Paton, Education Editor, London Daily Telegraph
Last Updated: 2:08pm GMT 31/01/2008

"Private Muslim schools have been given the power to police themselves, despite widespread fears over religious segregation, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.

In a controversial move, they have won the right to appoint their own Ofsted-style inspectors. A new independent watchdog has been set up to be more "sensitive'' toward Islamic education.

Proponents say faith schools need specialist inspectors
The decision comes despite concerns some private Muslim schools are already failing to prepare pupils for life in modern Britain.

Barry Sheerman, the chairman of the Commons schools select committee, told MPs last month local councils were finding it "difficult to know what is going on in some faith schools - particularly Muslim schools".

But religious leaders defended the move, saying the curriculum and religious traditions in faith schools demand specialist knowledge.

Can someone tell me that if there really is, or ever was, a successful Afrocentric method of teaching, why is there such widespread lack of success and achievement in Africa, the Caribbean and other predominantly black areas.

Call me a racist for saying so, but historicly speaking Africa has contributed so very little to human advancement in the way of science, medicine, technology etc.

Do black kids have a complex because they look around at an advanced world and don't see many of their own as having played a role in its development? If so, the only way to change that will be to rewrite history.

Sadly, that's likely to be the first purpose of the new school. If you can't point to success, what's left is pointing at something, or somebody else, that denied it to you. Gee, I wonder what or who that could be?

lookout - again, you've provided us with a fabulous analysis. I wish, I hope, there are more teachers like you. I know that it's an isolate world out there for teachers like you, who are Genuine Teachers, not people with a safe tenured job which happens to be called 'teaching'.

I taught in the university level, a 'slightly' different world, but the low expectations in the social sciences and humanities realm was endemic.
You'd essentially get a mark just for submitting the assignment in some classes!

In one university, I was told by my Chair to PASS two students who had very obviously purchased their essays. That's right; I was told not to ask them to rewrite the essay, themselves. I was told to give them each a 'pass mark' (D). I refused. I made them rewrite it, and gave them half marks for it. But, I was the one who suffered from the fury of the Chair, because I had disobeyed him. When I reminded him how unfair his decision was to students who had written the paper themselves but still got low marks- he was even more furious.

The students were only asked to write essays about 'their opinions'. I told my students I wasn't interested in their opinions; opinions belong in the coffee shop. Their essays had to be based on two requirements. hard data and logical, critical analysis - based on that data. With marks deducted for spelling and grammar.

Some students were absolutely shocked at the requirement for data and logical analysis. But the good ones were grateful; they often told me that I taught them 'how to think' - and they'd use that approach in other classes.

These black schools are going to be a mess. I wonder if smart parents will permit their children to go. Wouldn't it be interesting if no-one went to these schools? I'll bet that the Board will 'bribe' students to go...they have to show they are a success.

It is, in my view, extremely racist to define people, by their skin colour, as operative within a particular culture. Most of these children have no African background. The many generations past are not relevant to them now. What is the purpose of trying to make them hostage to a mythic culture? Africa, by the way, is not ONE culture, but many. Terrible decision -

I guess Sharia law will not be too far behind.
40 years ago didn't the black civil rights movement fight for non segregated schools?

Yeah, re faith based schools: when a leftie friend of mine voiced confidence in the Ministry inspectors to supervise and redirect any Muslim irregularities, I predicted exactly the new British model.

Ministry Inspector (on arriving at office in Muslim school): How are things going?

Muslim School Administrator: Fine. Just fine.

Ministry Inspector (on way out the door): Fine. See you next year.

Who thinks it'll be much different in the Black School? The administrators will likely fudge all kinds of things, including testing and results, and it will all be under the radar.

I also predicted, if there were faith based schools, that Christian schools would fare very differently. The inspectors would probably spend DAYS in those schools going over everything with a fine toothed comb. And how many of these kids end up planning the deaths of our soldiers and PM?

The double standard is sickening. Our authorities are losing the respect of the average citizen so quickly, things do not look good.

This is the province that elect a sorry dickhead as Premier simply because he was against special school funding.

Don't drink the water in TO it has toxic hypocrisy in it.

It's actually very simple. The Liberal Progressives have figured out that their brand of racism is acceptable because...ah... well...ah... oh, yeah... just because.

The *movement* is called TURD: Teaching Urban Racial Divisiveness.

So, what would one call a gathering of these liberal, progressive *movements* at a conference? Perhaps a pile of CRAP (Congress on Racial Apartheid Progression) ?

This concept of segregating black students is so stupid, it defies logic. Surely, by now we should have advanced to an era of equal opportunity. Are we going to start busing black children out of their neighbourhoods?
I guess in a mean spirited way I can see only one positive - the criminal element will be segregated from the children who wish to learn and not be ducking bullets.

Isn't this ghettoization of schools just an extension of our socialist Charter?

Remember its focus is on minority groups, and the elevation of those rights over almost everything else.

When complaining about race-based schools don't just talk about the leftards in the Toronto school board, look to Trudeau's great socialist document, and the inequities it prescribes.

ET, we sound like we're cut from the same mould! I too have had many run-ins with administrators—impostors, I call them—when I challenge their illogical, unjust, and dumbing down "graft", which is not too strong a word to describe the system the politically motivated boards now employ. (I'm utterly disgusted, as people can see.)

I'm not bragging. I guarantee that if the new, black school were run on the principles I would use, it would be a success. In fact, we wouldn’t need a black school if I ran the education system. Schools would be for EDUCATION. A parallel “boot school” system would be in place. Delinquents would be assigned to “boot school” until they were ready to conform to the standards of the regular schools. 'Problem is, I don't know if the board has enough genuine educators in its pool to carry out such a mandate.

Another huge problem? The Charter. The kind and amount of authority needed to subdue the barbarians would be subject to multiple lawsuits. There’d need to be a coalition of boards, country-wide, all with the will—and a war chest—to fight the “rights” crowd, who’ve caused much of the present problem. The boards are so full of left-wing airheads, I don’t think my idea of a coalition would go much beyond my thinking it.

Too bad.

We’re now such a wimp culture, we don’t have the wit or cojones to do the really radical things that need to be done to cut out the multiple “cancers” now plaguing us. And, what happens when cancer cells aren’t identified and their spread stopped—usually by quite unpleasant means? Disability and death are what happens.

As a society, we’re already seriously disabled. SDAers seem to be made of sterner stuff, but, at this point, types like us are not in charge and all our twit elites seem capable of is wringing their hands and standing by to watch the death. Well, as they’re in denial, they’ll watch the death, while saying, “Things aren’t really so bad. Let’s start another taxpayer supported program.” What utter dolts.

Death by suicide seems to be what the West is doing. Kyrie eleison.

We've spent the last few summers at an orphanage in Kenya, where they really stress school success.

They use all the "old" teaching methods--memorize your times tables, learn phonics, learn to write a proper sentence. The kids on our team were behind when they sat in on their grade level class.

We brought a whole set of grade 3 & grade 4 math books with us, along with teacher's materials, that had been used in my district of Ontario until last year. The teachers there decided they couldn't use them. Too many pictures, not enough work, and not rigorous enough. Maybe for grade 2, but the Kenyan books were better.

So much for Afri-centric.

The real problem for Caribbean born kids is exactly what Kingstonlad said--they have no dads. How a school is supposed to fix that is beyond me. Why don't we wake up and stop blaming the schools (though they do have a lot of improvement they could make) and start blaming the community. It's your fault the kids are out of control and aren't learning because you aren't raising them! That's true in many other subsets of society as well, it's just more rampant in this particular demographic group. And that is just sad.

lookout - regarding your advice on administering my blog - if I policed everyone who misquoted another commentor, I'd have no time left to do anything else. There are hundreds of comments posted here each day. I read only a few.

That said, I remind you that you're using a nickname. Therefore, it isn't possible to libel you. You haven't identified yourself.

I understand that teacher's at the school will be provided with carry permits :-)

Ever since kinsella started helping the Ontario Liberals, our province has been moving in the most amazing directions.

Although I blame John Tory. I still think he's a Liberal plant. No one could have been that stupid by accident.

Toronto Sun poll of the day : Should the province fund Africentric schools?

5143 votes 96% say no.

Kate, in my private communication to you, I did not ask that you police misquotes.

Like some others here, I've expressed the opinion that a certain visitor, who breaks most of the rules, would not be missed if he were disallowed. If that breaks one of the house rules, I'm sorry.

And what happens to the graduates of this school? Will they then need "black only" workplaces to continue to "succeed"?

Now that I think about it, what could be better than an all-black school? It'w worked out so well for the natives.

I have a solution, lets separate from Eastern Canada.

Let these A-holes east of Manitoba run their kids and their country into the ground, and we can look-out for our own.

I know that life isn't perfect in the West; but, I also KNOW that we would have solved many if not ALL of the poverty issues(racial based and others) if we didn't have the "deadbeats" in Ont. and Que. trying to drag us under water while they are drowning.

Hey Jon,

Doesn't two of the three prarie provinces and BC regularly vote NDP?

If Alberta went alone (presuming that's where you are) you may have a point. If you include Winnipeg, Regina and Leftcouver, not so much.

I'm just sick to my stomach reading about this alleged "new" idea. Are Canadian's so obtuse that they cannot recognize the miserable failure of a "No-child-left-behind" school system?!! One look at the U.S. and the quagmire that is our public school system should send any reasonably intelligent human being back to the drawing board.

Unfortunately, the cows are already out of the barn. Shaking one's fist at the crappy school system is pissing in the wind. The problem began a generation ago when people decided to stop parenting their children. Let's not just focus on one segment of the population either. There are plenty of white kids out there failing just as miserably as any minority and for the same reasons.

As a new, older parent of my first child, I am just now becoming truly aware of how desperate the education situation is. As my son approaches his second birthday, he has already been on a waiting list for a private school for a year. He will be required to test at a required level for admittance AND my husband and I will have to be interviewed to insure that our educational plans match those of the school. It is the second best school in my metro area -- the best being so by the smallest margin in test scores. The cost? Let's just say it is twice my mortgage payment every month. I am being forced to these drastic measures because the public school system is little more than free child care. The academic testing has been "normalized" until the child of average intelligence is dumber when they come out of school than when they went in. What do you think the prognosis is for an exceptionally bright child in public school? My tax dollars pay for that pitiful excuse for education and my OTHER dollars must pay for a real education for my child.

Teachers -- AAARRRGGHHHH! I have no idea what the requirements are for becoming a teacher in Canada. Here? A high school diploma and a pulse. No college degree, no certification, no nothing. The schools have been forced to this extreme because no one wants to pay someone a decent wage to educate our children. What genius can't see that the people we aren't educating today are the ones that are going to be leading our country in the very near future?!

I'm not even going to go down the leadership road here!! Not during the joke of a Presidential campaign we're having now. I've been a Republican for years. Sort of what they used to call a "Goldwater Republican" -- conservative financially and liberal socially but not too far in either direction. This election? I'm voting Democrat for the first time in more than 25 years. My choices aren't much better but I'll renounce my citizenship before I'll be part of putting another Republican in the White House...

Good day!

Just think if they have schools for blacks, that would mean there would end up being schools for whites by default....aww the silver lining effect....feelin' it.

And no, I am not a racist, the blacks are - they want segregation - I'm just lookin' at the upside.

Bunch of illiterate rednecks discussing pedagogy.

...heh.

Lisa sounds like the Ontario people … it’s as if she says I’m not voting for John Tory who tried to deal with the existing problem of 53,000 kids in the worlds most immigrant populated City ( 50% of the population of Toronto were not born in Canada). Even though Tory tried to debate these issues , the public did not even want to talk about. They decided they’d rather vote for a known liar who is now complicit in allowing new Black focused schools … which is worse than what Tory proposed and took off the table.

Lisa …so you’ll go for Hilary .. .who’ll raise corporate taxes , kill business , kill jobs, shut down NAFTA .. it won’t do much for your education system who are unionized teachers that OWN the Democrats , but you’ll get your revenge.
Were you born in Ontario?

Hey CBC Fan,

You're just the sort of snotty, condescending leftard I want to ask a question on this matter as you are clearly soooooo much better educated than 'us heeer' rednecks.

How black is black enough to get into an all black school? Does Obama qualify? He's only half black. How about Tiger Woods? He's part Asian. Is a little Asian Ok cause it isn't white? Is Tiger all good but Obama too Eurocentric because of his white mother?

Perhaps you can channel Tommy Douglas and the other leftard eugenicists to ascertain the required racial purity to be admitted to this "separate but equal" school. Then you can get back to us what the "progressive" word is on the back of the bus.

If white supremacy is Racist, what is "Afrocentric"?

It would seem to me that the leftards are the racists. Those of us who object to segregation based on perceived race are the ones who believe in equality (which ought to include equal accountability.)

I'd love to see you square that logical circle but I bet you're just a troll.

McWimpy... typical Liberal... lie, sit on the fence, do nothing... and wait for another 4 years for the Ontario sheeple to vote you back in.
----------------

TORONTO - Ontario's Liberal government won't prevent Canada's largest school board from establishing a controversial new black-focused school - a position critics say flies in the face of the party's much-touted opposition to funding religious schools, which helped propel it to victory in the last election.
[...]
But [McGuinty] wouldn't say whether that means the province won't bail out the cash-strapped school board at the end of the year, as it has in the past.

"The point I'm making today is that we're not going to be providing any additional funding for this particular new policy," McGuinty said.

Board officials, who are projecting a $41-million deficit, have said they will find the money for the school in their $2.3-billion budget.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/01/31/4804208-cp.html

OttRob,

McShifty is giving the people what they want. Clearly, the people want a PC-Addled, newspeaking moral coward and that is just what we got.

Ontario deserves what it gets (and I say that as someone who lives in southwestern Ontario) and further, John Tory deserves half the blame.

I await the day when some "native" thugs decide that Rosedale is Indian land and start squatting on the porch of some leftard corporate financer of the liberal party. I dream of the day...

Thinking of natives, isn't the fact that native schools have been such a disaster a warning to the leftards that separate schools may not be the easy fix they think it will be? Aren't leftards getting the fact that easy fixes don't exist?

I guess if they could figure that out they'd be conservatives...

Re: "Call me a racist for saying so, but historicly speaking Africa has contributed so very little to human advancement in the way of science, medicine, technology etc." posted by Bob C at January 31, 2008 12:01 PM

I'm not calling you a racist, and I see your point. I do wish to point out that, historically speaking, we all came from Africa. And as science, medicine, and technology go, I'm sure there are some contributions (Africa's a big place), but it's hard to contribute much in those fields when there is so much disease, poverty, famine, drought, etc. The contributions of people of African origins (referring to Black people) are a different matter, even in those fields.

On another front, take my favourite field, for example - music. The contributions Afrocentric musical styles (for lack of an appropriate term) have made to popular music in the last 100 years or so, and continue to make, are ubiquitous. I can't even imagine music without it. Jazz, Blues, Motown, R&B, Funk, Soul, Pop, all kinds of Dance music (except maybe "Riverdance" Celtic crap - lord have mercy), even Country music - all have been largely shaped by the Black community, if not outright invented there.

That said, I feel Hip-Hop music has been largely a negative influence on youth in general, and black youth in particular. The artists and the industry types that produce "music" that glorifies and promotes violent behavior and pimp attitudes bear some responsibility for the current problems in the black community.

The problems in Toronto have been festering for decades, and centre largely on the Jamaican community. As a good friend, a Jamaican, says all the time - some Jamaicans are the nicest people you'll ever meet, and some are people you'd never want to meet.

There - now you can call me a racist.

Warwick actually it has sort of already happened about a year ago. Some “poverty” thugs were bused in , some arrived at the Rosedale subway stop and they were all held off by about 10 cops in front of a Liberal bagman’s house. That bagman is now a Conservative (the conversion is not specifically related to that incident,
but … it all adds up until eventually the lights go on)

Wow -- Afrocentric, Eurocentric -- I'm confused. Time for an after dinner mint and a drink, it's 5 O'Clock, somewhere!

"Hey Jon,

Doesn't two of the three prarie provinces and BC regularly vote NDP?

If Alberta went alone (presuming that's where you are) you may have a point. If you include Winnipeg, Regina and Leftcouver, not so much."

This is not about partisan politics, this is about the decency of the people who live in the west.

I now live in Sask. but as you cleverly deducted I am a transplant from AB.

The aforementioned westerners who vote NDP vote for that party out of naivety; whereas, the voters east of Manitoba don't vote for the "small c conservatives" values out of malice. The people of Saskatchewan and Manitoba will soon learn the hard lessons of the "real Canada" once the handouts from Alberta run dry, and the beggars start looking to them for handouts. As the population grows in Sask. the prov. NDP will die as the % of CUPE shrinks WRT the population. Manitoba will benefit from the new business climate and the attitude of Saskatchwinners, just as Saskatchewan did from AB. Success is contagious.

In the near future (within 10 yrs) the political landscape in the aforementioned provinces will look allot like AB. One party with different ideologies within the party (ie. Red Tories & Blue Tories). This is great because to have input in your parties direction you will have to be informed, and have to participate in the process to have a say. The rest of the loons will continue to vote for the other parties, but to no avail; they too will have to get informed if they want to participate in democracy, which will inevitably result in a move to whichever "small c conservative" party they have in their area.

The pot-heads in B.C. will snooze through the whole thing.

McGuinty is talking out of both sides of his mouth; he's saying that he's against these 'black-focused schools'; and that the province 'won't fund them' but he won't stop them or interfere.

He's saying that because he won the election on his opposition to provincial funding of Faith-Based schools and his insistence on 'no segregation of children' into identity-schools.

But, it's happening anyway. His statement that the province won't fund this new school is empty; the province will hand over money to Toronto, not earmarked for any particular school, and the Toronto Board will use that money for this segregated school.

Then, other 'distinct identity' groups will have right to claim discrimination if they don't obtain their own 'identity' separate schools.

It's the Liberal Way. Balkanize people into separate enclaves, set them up against each other in competition for govt funds - and count on each bloc to vote for you.

McGuinty has his ass in a sling on this one.
If he decides to fund them minimally, that means these Black students will not be having all the programs afforded the so-called public schools, the real public and the Roman Catholic religious schools.
This could marginalize the Black kids further, leaving them with less options.
It's difficult to predict what the outcome of this will be down the road. This could be a trial/experiment project and funded fully to see what it produces. One thing for sure, what's going on in Toronto with Black youth is proof the present situation is not working.
Anything that might lead to ending shoot 'em ups in the streets of Toronto would be worth a try.

Interesting post, Jon. I'm grateful I've had the opportunity to live in a variety of places in this county, including the West. I've met a lot of different people in a lot of different places. As a result, i never developed your attitude of backward, bigoted ignorance regarding my fellow Canadians. Thanks for the reminder.

Look at the bright side. By putting all the trouble makers err under achievers in their own school maybe the other students will have a chance to learn something.

"That said, I feel Hip-Hop music has been largely a negative influence on youth in general, and black youth in particular. The artists and the industry types that produce "music" that glorifies and promotes violent behavior and pimp attitudes bear some responsibility for the current problems in the black community."

Art imitates life, not the other way around. The campaign to blame rap for everything is B.S.

The reason so many blacks and others listen to rap is because it speaks to us. When baby-mommas stop abusing their station, when police stop abusing their station, when women stop fawning over drug dealers(bad boys)and their toys, and when doing crime isn't more profitable (short term) that sitting in class or flipping burgers; then Hip Hop will clean-up its message because it will be REAL.

People like Chuck 'D', and KRS ONE opened my eyes as a youth to reality from their perspective and taught me to examine issues from multiple perspectives. Issue by issue I generally disagree with Chuck 'D'; but his music and lyrics inspired me to think critically.

People who B**tch about rap fall into two categories:
1)(looks like a duck, it's an f'n duck) Women's groups and their sympathizers who wish to silence men from telling their side of story WRT the relationship between men and women today.

2)(Stephan Coberts: I didn't read it but I have an opinion) A-holes who have NEVER actually listened to a rap album and tried to absorb the experiences of these artists.

To group 1), we will never stop telling the truth about the abuse and inequity being propagated towards men. Look in the mirror and start conducting yourselves as decent human-beings, and you will be treated as such.

To group 2) Listening to you about music is like the blind leading the blind. I've heard Lennon ect... "give love a chance" What a bunch of B.S.; you should be happy that Generation X, Y, 2K are not stupid enough to believe that nonsense.

"Hopefully with better education they will come to know that they are continuously being sold a bill of goods. Now if only some of their so-called leaders, Jesse and Al, could come to their senses...... Oh well, I guess that is asking too much. "

Just like the DEM's and all other victoms advocates, Jesse and Al benifit from the conditions blacks live in. It keeps them in buisness.

To those of you who are using phrases like "all-black school," "blacks only school," segregation, apartheid, etc.: if you can't get even the basic terms right, then how can one take anything you have to say seriously?

This school is experimental because of its proposed curriculum. Staffing is not limited to black teachers (so "all-black" is incorrect), enrollment is not limited to blacks kids (so "blacks only" is incorrect), and no child will be forced to attend (so "segregation" and "apartheid" are incorrect). The curriculum will include the standard Ontario-wide 3Rs, with modifications where appropriate to include references to pan-African and black culture.

Will it work? Who really knows. Given the dismal prospects of the status quo, I say it's worth at least a pilot. Parents who want to send their children there can, and those who don't, needn't. We can assess whether it has merit in a few years.

I understand Toronto also has Jewish elementary schools whose curriculum blends general studies with Judaic studies. Is this so fundamentally different?

Having permanently left Ontario a few months ago, I have been following this debate with interest. Glad I'm not there any longer.

What comes after these schools? All black medical and engineering schools to ensure continuation of this philosophy? Want to have one of these grads operate on you? Want to fly in a plane or cross a bridge that they designed?

Not to worry - it won't happen. The ghetto will just be more better edumacated.

Looks like Toronto school board is some kind of assembly of racists masquerading as feel good apparatchiks. Though this is what school boards do, they come up with schemes, they have to spend the money and ask for more, never mind their heads are up their collective socialist asses where they can’t see, can’t hear although they do feel.

dean spencer-fox, I have lived all my life in Toronto but travelled extensively throughout Canada and most of the world. Jon is right and this black school just reaffirms that. The liberal mind-set is destroying our way of life. Whenever lefties are faced with making tough decisions like telling the black community it is your culture of baby-mamas that lead to your children's failure in school they fold like a deck of cards.

The dumbing down of our schools with 85% as the graduation goal, no matter how poorly the student does in their scholastic endeavours is just the lastest in a long line of tearing our schools apart as Lookout explains so well. The Liberal elitist attitude of no responsiblity affects everything from crime to healthcare. Our city is falling apart with lefties like Miller blaming everyone but himself for its economic disaster.

Conservatives question and think about their mandate and politicians must earn their vote, Liberals blindly vote for the Liberal/NDP party no matter their track record or bankrupt/non-existent policies.

Unless this changes westerners have every right to criticize the eastern provinces.

Black academic failure is a money maker for the education industry and the Al Sharpton racist pimps of the world with all of the remedial funding for the failure, followed by never ending demands for even more remedial funding flowing into the mess. It's good for liberals and the teacher's unions that feed off of them. That blacks haven't figured it out is their pathology. African culture has been a loser by every metric. Indulging in all of the things that have made African culture so pathetic - feckless unfaithful macho males, rampant promiscuity, tribalism, violence, a lack of western reason and orderliness - which we are rewarding in public schools is no help to blacks. The hip hop/rap/gangsta culture is an extension of African pathology. Until black sheeple figure it out, liberals will be there to assist them in failure.

No. I'm deleting your comments because I'm a fascist.

It's one of the perks.

RPB writes, "I understand Toronto also has Jewish elementary schools whose curriculum blends general studies with Judaic studies. Is this so fundamentally different?"

Well, yes, RBP, it is fundamentally different. The schools you're talking about are PRIVATE. In case you don't know what that means, it's this: parents apply for their children to attend the school, on private property, and the parents pay tuition. (You also said to those of us who oppose the board's new plan, "[I]f you can't get even the basic terms right, then how can one take anything you have to say seriously?" Ditto, I guess.)

Re "black schools": if they're going to be as open ended as you say--probably, as the TDSB tries to be all things to all people (only some people are more equal than others)--how will they be different from the mixed bag schools the TDSB already has? And, if they aren't, what are we talking about anyway?

Right on, lookout!

RBP - the Jewish elementary schools to which you refer are private. The taxpayer doesn't fund them; parents do, by paying tuition. This proposed 'black school' isn't private; it's funded by the taxpayer.

Now, the issue of the public funding of so-called 'Faith Based Schools' (ie, Jewish, Muslim etc) was firmly opposed by McGuinty in the October Ontario election. NO!, he thundered. NO Funding for private schools! All children should attend the public schools which are integrated.

So, yet another lie. Of course, McGuinty says that province won't fund this proposed black school, but that's nonsense. The Ontario funds don't go to specific schools; they go to the Board, and the Board allots the money.

As for your comment that 'it's open to all', that's empty. What non-black parent, even the most hardened socialist leftist, is going to drive their child to that school, when the child can go to the local, far more diverse, school.

And I suggest you read lookout's various posts, based on long experience in that same school system, that the problem isn't the Curriculum. Adding courses on 'African culture' isn't going to entice these kids to stay in school. The majority have NO connection, and never did, to Africa. Just because their skin is black, you think they should focus on Africa? Why?

The real reason for the high dropouts is, as lookout pointed out, a culture of, not African, but a culture of low expectations from both parents and teachers, a culture of socialist-induced victimology and a sense of entitlement, and a teaching environment of cultural relativism and political correctness that refuses standards of behaviour and standards of knowledge. Nothing to do with 'Africa'.

And the Detroitification (TM) of Toronto continues.

I mean, I can't blame the TDSB for this, as the board has responsibility for the kids when they get there. They can't go about socially engineering these kids.

That said, all these folks who got up and argued for this at the meeting, especially the woman who confronted Trustee Payne, one thing went through my mind. If you bothered to discipline your kids with this much effort, and not blame everybody else for your and your kids' problems, would we be having this debate? If you stopped acting and thinking like you were second class citizens, and stopped instilling in your children this us against the world philosophy, would we be having this debate?

All the while, I don't know if actually think this, or if they're acting all indignant, because they know they can get away with it, and anyone who dares to disagree with them is immediately labeled a racist.

Seriously, with some rather unfortunate exceptions, racism is a self-inflicted wound. And quite frankly, I am sick and tired of being born with the unfortunate affliction of being a white male.

This is a dark, dark day to be a Torontonian, and this is a statement I find myself making with increasing regularity.

-----------------------

In addition to this, as fashionable as it can be to blame McGuinty for not doing anything, really, what can he do? He can't fund it outside of the formula that exists, so any statement he makes on this is irrelevant.

The solution is to really just take all parents involved in this, and just lock them in a room somewhere so we don't have to be subjected to this sheer stupidity. Funny thing is, their kids would probably do better with this situation.

"Well, yes, RBP, it is fundamentally different. The schools you're talking about are PRIVATE."

Oh, so that's what everyone here is up in arms about -- the perceived misappropriation of public funds? I don't think so, lookout. The comments here seem to be revolving around (erroneous) claims that this school is tantamount to segregation and apartheid. Or are you saying they, and you, would be OK with what you call "all-black" schools as long as they were privately funded?

And while we're on the subject, can you explain your use of the term "all-black"? Were you genuinely mistaken, or were you intentionally trying to mislead?

"if they're going to be as open ended as you say--probably, as the TDSB tries to be all things to all people (only some people are more equal than others)--how will they be different from the mixed bag schools the TDSB already has?"

As should be obvious to anyone who's actually read the TDSB plan, the curriculum.

RBP says: "...if you can't get even the basic terms right, then how can one take anything you have to say seriously?"

I think we all pretty much understand what's being undertaken here. If I suggested we should have a Scottish school where the curriculum has modifications where appropriate to include references to Scottish culture would that be a sensible expenditure of public money?

While we're on the subject, what is "black culture"? I know there's Caribbean culture (mostly British), there's a variety of cultures from Africa (mostly French or Dutch), but this "black" culture thing confuses me. Does it have something to do with holding your pistol sideways instead of the proper way when you pop a cap into your rival drug dealer? Or is it more about being able to tell jazz from Motown? In any case, is teaching it going to make a dent in the friggin' 40% dropout rate?

RBP then says: "Will it work? Who really knows."

You know RBP. You hope you are wrong, but deep inside you can feeeeel the answer.

And the answer is no, it will do nothing to improve the lives of the students who go there. No, it will not be safer than any other Jane/Finch area school. No, it will not reduce the dropout rate.

Finally, RBP says: "I understand Toronto also has Jewish elementary schools whose curriculum blends general studies with Judaic studies. Is this so fundamentally different?"

Yes it is. Because A)those schools are -private- schools, but more importantly B)the kids in those schools don't have a 40+% drop out rate. They go on to be doctors and lawyers and etc. They don't form gangs to sell drugs. They don't shoot at each other from moving cars in broad daylight on Younge Street. Nor do the Sikh kids, the Chinese kids, the White kids, the name-your-variety.

So because I would like the black kids to become doctors like the Jewish kids, I would prefer that my tax money be spent on something that would actually work instead of pissed away on a blacks-only school that is not only doomed, but the very idea of it is racist and destructive to Canadian society.

You, my dear RBP, are stuck on stupid. Please smack yourself in the head three times and start using your BRAIN.

Re: "Art imitates life, not the other way around. The campaign to blame rap for everything is B.S. The reason so many blacks and others listen to rap is because it speaks to us. When baby-mommas stop abusing their station... yada, yada ..." [emphasis mine]

Bullshit, Jon. There's lots of great hip-hop/rap music being made, and I'm certainly not "blaming it for everything". I listen to lots of it. But even people like Russell Simmons understand you can go too far. There's lots of purely sensationalist garbage that glorifies gun violence (normalizing thug culture) and the pimp lifestyle, and is clearly targeted at immature middle class white boy wanna-be's (like you?).

Have you ever known any pimps? I have. Some of them are nice guys too. Most are violent sexist asshole sociopathic predatory drug-dealing egomaniac pigs too stupid to understand their lifestyle is going to get them, and others, jailed at best, or killed. Not that they care about anyone other than themselves. Or have ever taken the time to think it through.

I'm not for censorship. But as far as Hip-Hop goes, how often do you hear of, for example, Country music stars shooting each other?

Go back and read what you wrote about "baby-momma's" WTF? I hope you don't expect anyone to take you seriously. Is that how you refer to your mother? And don't get me stated on wearing pants 10 sizes too big hanging down below your ass. Yeah, I know, it's influenced by jail culture, 'cause jail is so cool. Looks incredibly stupid, but maybe that's just my impression.

RPB asks me, "Or are you saying they, and you, would be OK with what you call 'all-black' schools as long as they were privately funded?"

In a word, my answer is an unreserved yes.

And, RPB, if you were able to properly process my plain words, you could have answered that question for yourself.

But you have to be 16 before you can sign up for "Drive-By Ed"

"RBP - the Jewish elementary schools to which you refer are private. The taxpayer doesn't fund them; parents do, by paying tuition. This proposed 'black school' isn't private; it's funded by the taxpayer."

The title of this post is "Apartheid High." The term "segregation" has been tossed around quite liberally in the comments. Are you suggesting that you support apartheid and segregation of blacks as long as it's privately funded?

"So, yet another lie."

McGuinty has stated that no additional funding for this Africentric school is forthcoming. Key word being "additional." The TDSB has full authority to use its existing budget any way it sees fit.

Also, legally, Toronto's school trustees have the authority to create whatever schools they'd like. There are already over several dozen publicly funded alternative schools in the city. To ban the TDSB from creating one more would require provincial legislative amendment.

So, McGuinty hasn't been caught in a lie. He says he doesn't like the idea, won't dedicate new money for it, but also won't overstep any existing jurisdictional boundaries to stop it.

"As for your comment that 'it's open to all', that's empty. What non-black parent, even the most hardened socialist leftist, is going to drive their child to that school, when the child can go to the local, far more diverse, school."

Actually, what's empty is your rhetorical argument. Can you state with any certainty that no non-black parent would consider sending their child to this school?

"And I suggest you read lookout's various posts, based on long experience in that same school system, that the problem isn't the Curriculum."

You say that as though lookout is some sort of authority on the matter, rather than just one lone voice out of thousands of teachers in the province. Guess what? I've been teaching in Toronto elementary and high schools for over 20 years now, the last 19 of which have been in "priority neighbourhoods." Does that mean you'll now defer to my long experience?

"Adding courses on 'African culture' isn't going to entice these kids to stay in school."

According to lookout's personal opinion? Your own personal opinion? Empirical research on pedagogical best practises?

"The majority have NO connection, and never did, to Africa. Just because their skin is black, you think they should focus on Africa? Why?"

You've either never heard of, or else put no stock in, the African diaspora. In any case, it's not that I think they they should focus on Africa, it's that some in the black community think they should.

"In a word, my answer is an unreserved yes."

So you unreservedly support "apartheid" and "segregation" as long as you don't have to pay for it? How principled of you.

And still no answer on the use of "all-black"?

RPB, you need to grow up and smarten up. Please come back when you have the ability to actually argue your case. At the moment, you get a Level 1 on that score.

Good night.

"I would prefer that my tax money be spent on something that would actually work instead of pissed away on a blacks-only school that is not only doomed, but the very idea of it is racist and destructive to Canadian society."

First, the fact that you call it a "blacks-only" school serves only to demonstrate your fundamental misunderstanding of the TDSB plan. Second, if you're so convinced that it's doomed, what would you do with the $800,000+ instead? My guess is, you have no viable innovative ideas to offer, and in fact wouldn't support any proposal that dedicates resources specifically to black students. It's clear enough that their well-being is the furthest thing from your mind.

I would love to be proven wrong, but somehow I doubt I will.

"At the moment, you get a Level 1 on that score."

This isn't the first time that you've pulled out the "I'm a teacher and I'm giving you a failing grade" trick to weasel out of a discussion on SDA. Not only is it incredibly cheesy, it's also obviously a dodge.

So one last time, my dear lookout: "all-black"?

I'm a long-time SDA reader who agrees with just about every post on this site. I've never had any reason to comment until now.

Lookout: I'm with you on everything you have to say about this idiotic Toronto school proposal and the sorry state of our young people, but with all due respect, please drop the "You get a Level 1" shtick. It really is lame.

Yours,
Old-timer

RPB - what is it you don't understand about private schools versus private? Private schools can be all Catholic, all Jewish, all kids that enjoy art, whatever they want, it's private, the public isn't being asked to pick up the tab or advance their exclusive mandate. Exclusive mandate is the key word. End of story.

They want to create an all black school, but, even with the transparently disingenuous qualifier, anyone can go there, is sort of an oxymoron, isn't it. How ridiculously bogus can you get, like any whites would accept the offer. You really think the Canadian gov't should accept a racial criteria as terms for a public school? Think whites should request the same?

"Private schools can be all Catholic, all Jewish, all kids that enjoy art, whatever they want, it's private, the public isn't being asked to pick up the tab or advance their exclusive mandate. Exclusive mandate is the key word. End of story."

I realize that Toronto's Hebrew schools are private. Their funding status was/is, for my purposes, beside the point. What's relevant is the fact that students often respond positively to a curriculum tailored to their cultural heritage/experiences, as the Hebrew school's attest. Black-focused schools in the US have also produced some positive results. So, there may be merit to an Africentric school. Or maybe there isn't. But it's an empirical question that can be answered only by piloting it, not by making unfounded and presumptuous claims.

"They want to create an all black school, but, even with the transparently disingenuous qualifier, anyone can go there, is sort of an oxymoron, isn't it."

That's not even a sentence, but I think I get the gist of it.

"How ridiculously bogus can you get, like any whites would accept the offer."

How can you be so sure of that?

"You really think the Canadian gov't should accept a racial criteria as terms for a public school?"

If you're referring to student enrolment, race isn't a criterion for entry into this school, so your argument is completely without merit.

To everyone: I still haven't heard a single convincing argument for why this experimental school doesn't at least merit a pilot test to determine if it might help struggling black students. I'm talking about a logical, informed, evidence-based argument demonstrating why it can't possibly work. Any takers?

Oh, and "I don't want my tax dollars going towards it" doesn't cut it. I don't like my tax dollars going towards a whole bunch of things, but annoyance alone means nothing without reason. Ditto for "Black culture is inherently lazy and co-dependent/Their dads are deadbeats/They glorify gangs and guns", which is nothing but a rehashing of tired generalizations and stereotypes that offer no way forward.

One thing that i have not heard commented on, was the black trustee that stated black students need to learn from an afro-centric point of view..that the Greek Pythagorous stole his theorem from the ancient black cultures in Egypt, and exported them..

Good grief! .. .what else will these children learn that has any basis in reality?

I can think of many reasons why this won't work, but i think that one issue has to addressed..life is not afro-centric ten steps from the classroom.

You put these kids into an African school setting and they would fail.All of the reasons that are given as non starters for why we shouldn't have black schools (drop outs, gang culture, absentee fathers etc..) are in and of themselves at the very core of why they won't work.

You cannot remove these items from the equation , it is part and parcel of why so many kids fail at school and life.

Afro-centric schools are setting these kids up for a fall, because the real world won't give them a free pass because of the colour of their skin...

From today's National Post, page A11:

School trustee explains why she voted ‘no’

Concept of ‘black’school ‘divisive’
STEPHNIE PAYNE National Post

Commentary

As an African-Canadian, and a trustee on the Toronto District School Board, I voted against the Afrocentric (blackfocus) school. Here’s why.

First and foremost, I support a curricula based on everyone’s history. I am truly supportive of an inclusive mandated curriculum where all students are reflected. Not a separate school for ‘‘blacks’’ only.

My children are AfricanCanadians born and educated in Canada — in Toronto schools — and are exemplary, successful, productive members of a democratic society, and they did not attend a ‘‘black’’ school. My husband and I ensured that our children were fully engaged, loved, well-rounded and supported, both in the home and in school.

Today’s black parents, whether due to poverty, socioeconomic factors or marginalization, need to be fully engaged in the daily lives of their children.

Black mothers should examine their lifestyles with regard to issues of drugs, gangs, early pregnancy and multiple pregnancies and absent fathers, and how these factors affect their lives and that of their children to fully succeed.

Yes, our educational system needs to change drastically, and teachers should reflect the student body and the community.

However, I do not believe that an all-‘‘black’’ school will serve our communities well. It is divisive and the ‘‘ black’’ community is not a homogenous group in this province or in this country.

Martin Luther King Jr. wanted all children to succeed based on their character, not by the colour of their skin.

Stephanie Payne is the Trustee for Ward 4, Toronto District School Board

"All of the reasons that are given as non starters for why we shouldn't have black schools (drop outs, gang culture, absentee fathers etc..) are in and of themselves at the very core of why they won't work."

I'm not saying they're non-starters that should be left out of the equation. I'm saying that the argument can't simply end with them. We know that schools are an important institution in our society and a key socialization influence on children and youth. I've yet to hear anyone demonstrate that an Africentric school can't mitigate, at least for some students, the adverse influences in their lives (e.g., absentee fathers, gangs, etc.).

You're trying to answer the question of "Why won't Africentric schools work?" with "Because the kids' lives are all messed up already." But what I'm asking is, "Isn't it possible that this type of school might help to counterbalance those negative forces? If not, why not?"

"Bullshit, Jon. There's lots of great hip-hop/rap music being made, and I'm certainly not "blaming it for everything". I listen to lots of it. But even people like Russell Simmons understand you can go too far. There's lots of purely sensationalist garbage that glorifies gun violence (normalizing thug culture) and the pimp lifestyle, and is clearly targeted at immature middle class white boy wanna-be's (like you?)."

It is you who doesn't know what he is talking about. I challenge you to name any albums from any artists that are "purely sensational" with intellectual honesty based on your listening expirience. You now resort to the typical race card by calling me a "wigger" for lack of a better term. In my expirience over the last 15-20 yrs is that it isn't blacks who object to "wiggers" but it is actually honkies like you.

So Jimbo correct me where I'm wrong, explain to me what it is really like to have a "baby-momma" using you kid as a bargining chip, you know the "ol' keep a N**%a baby". FYI you don't know anything about me, and you clearly don't understand the concept of sisters & B##ches. They are not the same thing; but they both exist.

"There's lots of purely sensationalist garbage that glorifies gun violence (normalizing thug culture) and the pimp lifestyle, and is clearly targeted at immature middle class white boy wanna-be's (like you?).""

Your chasing your tail with this argument. If this so called "garbage" is directed toward wiggers like me then your way off topic. I was under the impression we were discussing black issues and the negative effect hip hop has on black culture. I'm not aware of any problems hip hop is causing in the white community, if the "garbage" is for whites then it is no differnt than reading a S.King novel. Fiction.

According to you the "good" hip hop(back-pack rappers) like Talib Quali, or Mos Def is only for blacks so their shouldn't be a problem right? These are positive messages so all should be great, and since the "garbage"( I suppose your refering to 50cent or Nelly) is geared toward whites and concidering whites make up 60%+ of the population we should see 60%+ whites in the jail population on Canada and the US.

What about Native people, what kind of Hip hop do they listen to? I'm sure you can make an argument for rap causing grief for these people too.

"Country music stars shooting each other?"

Let me get this straight Jimbo, Rappers are shooting Rappers because they are listening to rap.

Anyway, I think I may have misrepresented myself in the previous post. I'm not saying that men have no responsibility WRT the aforementioned issues, I'm simply saying that hip hop sheds light on these issues from another perspective. Many rappers (gangster included ie. Tu Pac) have have done the songs that you so loath, and then on the next song spoke with love about their mothers, their faith, their baby-mommas, their country, their community ect...

I just don't think I should have to state these facts every time the anti-hip hop discussion comes up. These talking points are represented consistently and do not require me to echo them.

"Country music stars shooting each other?"

I havn't heard of that but it would make a good country song if you could work in a pickup truck, closing time, daddy in jail and a railroad. (and don't forget the dog too)

RPB @ 7:53 a.m. today, “But what I'm asking is, ‘Isn't it possible that this type of school might help to counterbalance those negative forces? If not, why not?’ RPB keeps insisting that the questions he's asking haven't been answered.

Language processing is what each of us has to do with the words we read in order for them to make sense. First, we need to decode the words, that is, "convert (a coded message) into intelligible language" (Canadian Oxford Dictionary). Then we have to construct meaning from the decoded text. I've spent my career teaching many of the most challenged kids in the board how to do both. (It's easier in most cases to do the former than the latter.)

A suggestion for RPB: On this thread alone, there are plenty of posts that answer his questions. I believe if he 1) took the time to decode, e.g., read, those messages, and 2) construct meaning, which sometimes includes making inferences ("reading between the lines" to put it simply), he would have in his possession the answers he seeks. (He might particularly like to check out Trustee Stephanie Payne’s message.)

However, from such comments from RPB as, @12:24 a.m., “I realize that Toronto's Hebrew schools are private. Their funding status was/is, for my purposes, beside the point”, which entirely contradicts the clear meaning of RPB’s earlier words*, perhaps language processing isn’t his strong point. (Or maybe his fudging and backtracking—to put it politely—are caused by something else.)

*@ 11:19 p.m. yesterday, RPB wrote, “The title of this post is ‘Apartheid High.’ The term ‘segregation’ has been tossed around quite liberally in the comments. Are you suggesting that you support apartheid and segregation of blacks as long as it's privately funded?”

Not only does this clearly contradict RPB’s later words (quoted above), it suggests a possible language processing deficit. From the posts of many, responding to RPB’s apparent confusion about the difference between private and public schools, the very clear, one word answer to this question is, “Yes”.

This whole argument begins and ends with personal accountability. Individuals make there own choices, blame falls on those weak enough to lay it. If blacks, or any group, cant conform to societies laws, build prisons, not special schools.

Wow. What a bizarre thread this has become.

RPB, If I can make some attempt to answer your question:

There are a number of problems at work here which have made the matter a very confused one, but I think the central question is this: is a school entitled to privilege its role as a “socializing influence” above and beyond its more obvious role as, well, a school? That is, a place that offers a certain, generally agreed upon standard of education. My particular concern with Afrocentrism is not so much the effect it will have on social cohesion (though I don’t think this can be ignored), as it is with the fact that Afrocentrism is largely a bogus concept. If I am right (and there's far more to suggest that I am then there is to suggest I'm not), then it is a vexed question to ask what the benefit of an Afrocentric education is; it is not, as far as I can tell, an education at all.

I deal with the matter in a little more depth here:

http://edwardmichaelgeorge.blogspot.com/2007/11/afrocentrism-or-i-had-weirdest-dream.html

(And I encourage you to follow the links to Steve Janke’s research on the subject.)

Someone said above that this was not a concern of curriculum, but from my point of view it is, first and foremost. I find the idea of racially-oriented schools extremely objectionable, but what I find more objectionable is cultural and historical revisionism daring to call itself an education. By any academic standard (other than its own, obviously) Afrocentrism is quackery. This is not the road to equality or (to use a term I loathe) empowerment.

laughing and EMG, I appreciate both your posts.

EMG, your reasonable ideas here have been covered, in other words, many times in this thread. And, yes, curriculum is extremely important.

As I noted above, the Eurocentric program--the 3Rs--I used with my challenged black students was very successful at teaching them the necessary skills to be responsible and productive citizens. My students worked hard and felt proud of their achievements.

EMG, I entirely agree that, "By any academic standard (other than its own, obviously) Afrocentrism is quackery." Putting black children in a school with that as its basis will only doubly victimize them: the "soft racism of low expectations". What a despicable fate for these children. The adults responsible for such abuse should be ashamed--except that lefty idiots have removed "shame" from their lexicons.

Our black kids and all of society deserve much better.

Hey Jon. You use Tu Pac as an example of what's good about Rap? He's dead, you know. As in shot to death. I guess it was because he was so full of love.

He wasn't shot just as a result of listening to Hip-Hop. But the thug culture some of it glorifies is undoubtably a contributing factor. Live by the sword ...

As for my clearly not understanding "the concept of sisters & B##ches." There's a concept there?

Try reading a book, Jon.

"One thing that i have not heard commented on, was the black trustee that stated black students need to learn from an afro-centric point of view..that the Greek Pythagorous stole his theorem from the ancient black cultures in Egypt, and exported them.."

This illustrates a potential problem in defining exactly what Afrocentric studies are. It could end up being historical revisionism like the above statement, which is obviously not true. There were no ancient black cultures in Egypt, at least amongst the ruling class.

Still worse, the studies could become racist, ie the black supremacy doctrine that has seeped into black culture from organisations like 'Nation of Islam.' The 'Melanin and Melanin Theory' for example, gave birth to the notion of killing whites that incited the 'Zebra Killings' in California during the 70's. I recall there was a black professor teaching this so-called theory in Toronto last year.

RPB, I commend to your attention the above comment by the learned Mr. EMG, who has eloquently stated what I was trying to say earlier regarding the scam that is Afrocentric schooling.

Now, as to your objectionable comments:

"First, the fact that you call it a "blacks-only" school serves only to demonstrate your fundamental misunderstanding of the TDSB plan. Second, if you're so convinced that it's doomed, what would you do with the $800,000+ instead? My guess is, you have no viable innovative ideas to offer, and in fact wouldn't support any proposal that dedicates resources specifically to black students. It's clear enough that their well-being is the furthest thing from your mind."

Taken in order,

1) Ask yourself not what is intended, but rather what will actually happen. How many White/Asian/Indian/Whatever kids are going to the "Afrocentric" school up at Jane/Finch? I think "blacks-only" can expand to include the 0.1% non-blacks who will make a great show of attending. For a month.

I don't "mis-understand" the plan, I just reflect on the fact that no plan ever survives contact with Reality, and the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

2) What would I do with $800,000 dollars? I'd fire ever single moron who had anything at all to do with this Afrocentric school obscenity for a start. Then I'd take the 800 G's, back it up with a 10% budget cut and give the money back to the taxpayers. Nothing like a major budget cut to focus the minds of a bureaucracy. Money saved by decimating the deadwood middle management would be spent on new-hire teachers and TESTING. Administrators and teachers whose schools tested below standard would be fired and replaced until the school met standard. Radical, eh?

3) You're right, I would not support any proposal that dedicates special resources specifically to black students. Or Muslim students. Or White students. Because, my dear RPB, assigning resources based on a student's race is... wait for it... -racism! What part of "I would like the black kids to become doctors like the Jewish kids" failed to communicate to you?

My innovative idea is to treat all students exactly the same regardless of race or religion, and teach them the skills they need to prosper and contribute in Canadian society. You know, basic arithmetic, how to read a text book, map or blueprint, how to tell a good idea from a stupid one, and the proud history of the Canadians (and Brits and Americans and yes even Frogs) who worked their collective asses off to create this civilization where black kids get treated exactly the same as Asian kids. Treated like gold, not to put too fine a point on it.

4) You have mental filter in place which prevents you from reading what I've said here and understanding what it means. You think that all good things come only from government, and only more government money can fix the problems that ail black kids in the city of Toronto. You instantly identify anything which deviates from this model as evil.

Since it is my contention that most of the problems black kids are having are caused by government, and that the cure is less of it, you naturally assume I am a racist regardless of what I actually say or what evidence I may produce.

Please bang your head with the nearest blunt object, then read this post again. Repeat the process until the possibility that I might NOT be a racist/bigot/homophobe intrudes itself into your solid bone Liberal cranium.

Phantom, BRAVO and Amen!

I have a simple question I'm struggling with. How did the concept of treating everyone equally without consideration of race become racist?

"Try reading a book, Jon."

IT IS DIFFICULT TO HAVE A PRODUCTIVE CONVO. WHEN ALL YOU HAVE TO SAY ARE COMMENTS LIKE THE ONE ABOVE. HAVING A DIFFERNT OPINION IS MY RIGHT(4 NOW) BUT I'M SURE YOU WOULD RATHER ONLY PEOPLE WHO AGREE WITH YOU BE ALLOWED TO HAVE AN OPINION.

WRT TU-PAC I WAS ATTEMPTING TO USE A REFERENCE THAT IS COMMONLY KNOWN. PEHAPS I SHOULD QUOTE JAY-Z SINCE HE IS STILL ALIVE.

"As for my clearly not understanding "the concept of sisters & B##ches." There's a concept there?"

"Sisters get respect b****'s get what they deserve; Sisters work hard b*****'s work your nerve.

Sisters hold you down, B*****'s hold you up; Sisters help you progress B*****'s slow you up.

Sisters cook up a meal and play thier role with the kids; B*****'s in the street with thier nose in your biz.

Sisters tell the truth, B*****'s tell lies; Sisters drive cars, B*****'s want a ride.

Sisters do thier dirt outside of where they live; B*****'s have brothers all up in your crib.

Sisters tell you quick you'd better check your homie; B*****'s don't give an F they want to check your Homie."

GET IT?

FYI I love to read.

'Cause its more convenient for the 'Tards this week, Jimbo. Next week it'll be some other damn thing.

That's real uplifting Jon. It ... moved me. Well, my stomach turned if that counts.

I think Jimbo meant read something where bad language doesn't make up quite so much of the story, know what I sayin'?

Jon. Sorry if I've insulted you. Depending on the context, I don't have a lot of respect for those who say things like, "Sisters get respect b****'s get what they deserve".

Maybe it's a generational thing. If I ever used words like that (or, god forbid, the "N" word) around my family (some of them black) I would have caught hell like you wouldn't believe. When I hear others talk like that, it's like I can see their IQ drop as they speak.

Just to put it into perspective for you, I'm a white musician (guitar/vox, part-time these days), but I've played R&B, Funk, Blues etc for more than 30 years. I bought my first Funkadelic record in 1973 (Cosmic Slop). I currently spend 6 months every year touring Alberta on weekends with an R&B band from Chicago. I'm very familiar with Black music styles, and listen to, and enjoy lots of Hip-Hop (current fave Aceyalone), though these days I'm moving on. I've grown up listening to all that stuff.

You won't find a lot of doctors, scientists, accountants, bankers, etc using that kind of language. From my perspective, artists bear a certain responsibilty to aim a little higher than what I hear from a lot of Hip-Hop these days. I've heard all of the arguments from both sides, and still feel that way.

I think it's a sad reflection of the state of our culture today.