How to make something popular: ban it!

Always thought the Brit aristocracy was a bit sissified hunting a fox with a bunch of hounds and horses. Yes, yes, I know about "horsemanship" and all that, veddy advantageous when one was going to be posted to a cavalry unit, but rawther useless now. Yeah, we had to memorize "John Peel" in grade three.

But, if the BA wishes to be taken seriously by us peasants, instead of thrashing a little fox, why not release a full grown Grizzly bear, and let the fur fly!

It would please the Colonials immensely! ;-)

Nothing but a bunch of wealthy wimps chasing a frightened fox with hundreds of dogs and horses. Shame!!

I was posted to England for two years when I was in the army, and hunted with a pack of beagles. Its like fox hunting, except on foot and with beagles instead of foxhounds, and the quarry is usually rabbit or hare. Its loads of fun. I imagine that fox hunting is even more fun.

A point to keep in mind about this is that land owners would pay the pack to rid there land of vermin. With fox hunting, a necessary farm task was made into a sport, and why not. Farmers can't afford to let foxes eat their sheep and chickens and other livestock. When fox hunting was banned, it had nothing to do with foxes being an endangered species. They still shoot them, poison them and use terriers to kill the cubs in their dens. Banning the fox hunt was about class envy and destroying any last vestiges of English culture.

For people who think it can't happen here, remember the spring bear hunt? More and more crown land is being turned into parks and made off limits to hunting. In many ways for the same reasons as the fox hunt was banned. Urban enviro wackos don't want the country hicks to hunt any more.

Brilliantly argued, Minuteman, though personally
I prefer hunting rats with ferrets and Keeshonden.

"Nothing but a bunch of wealthy wimps chasing a frightened fox with hundreds of dogs and horses. Shame!!"

Having attended that Last fox hunt that took place in Lewes, I must disagree. Fox hunters are generally NOT wealthy folks, just people who enjoy horses and dogs. Its exactly that sort of attitude that got the hunt banned quite unjustly. Always a few PETA nutbars in attendance, who are probably more wealthy than the people doing the hunting.

What a pity! That 300,000 Brits couldn't be found with the same passion and willingness to commit widespread civil disobedience to resist the EU's death-of-a-thousand-cuts encroachment on the freedom of the British nation?!

if they could take up faux mullah hunting with the same enthusiasm.

fee , fie , faux, fum

just to stop any troll smartypants.

Look at the size of that hunt master. Don't feel sorry for the fox, let PITA help the horse.

Personally, I've never seen the sport in this. Just like bull fighting in Spain.
The difference is, I don't like it, so I won't attend. You won't find me attempting to ban it.

@dmorris:

Short answer: "The U.K. is not Russia."

Longer answer: The U.K. aristocracy is the only one I know of that has survived intact from medieval times to today, even if their privileges are little more than titular nowadays. I would venture that they have good reasons for not trading in the fox-hunt for something more exciting to us. It should be remembered that the crisis that brought the aristocracy almost to ruin was World War 1, where quite a few aristocrats overestimated their skill in war. (In fact, that near-ruination resembled the 3rd-generation "Kennedy curse", believe it or not. The Kennedys of Boomer age tend to bump themselves off through excessive risk-taking, sad to say.)

Perhaps a more controversial answer: If bear-huntin' would be fit for Canada, then it will have to be residents of that same Canada who undertake it - although, from what I recall, the favourite sport of the aristocracy when resident, back in Canada's youth, was fishing. High entertianment for the colonials have to be done in the colonies, sorry to say.

The thing about aristocracy is that to the degree that it is a meritocratic aristocracy (denotationally) that is actually a very good thing (as long as we can democratically kick the bums out should their merit be found to be wanting), and to the degree that it isn't, it isn't.

Meanwhile, I don't think the current fox-hunting debate is about aristocracy.

Fox hunting began as predator control: A man, several hounds, a worthy horse who could follow. It evolved to a community effort with designated Masters, Huntsmen, Whippers-in, and the 'field'.

Those who have had the experience may try to explain the attraction, but few can adequately describe the contagious mass excitement of the humans, the horses, and the hounds. The exhilaration is best shared by a glance and a smile - your companions in the field understand.

Those who have not so much as hill-topped may well think you mad. Those with ulterior motives of all sorts may wish to impose their will - for the pleasure they derive from being offended is exceeded only by the feeling of power that comes from theft of others’ rights.

The modern hunt is an inefficient means of keeping a balance between the wild and the domesticated. But, it is a tradition, with ceremony and conventions born of old necessity elaborated to ritual. It is a party for man/woman/children and their beasts. Indeed it is a somewhat dangerous pursuit for there are falls and collisions with fixed objects, but that is part of a good chase enjoyed no less by the horses than the people.

Often, in the early morning when you arrive at the stable you find the animals anticipating the meet with as much or more enthusiasm than the sleepy-eyed riders. I have known few horses who did not join in with glee – although some were so squirrel-brained (Thoroughbred) they were a danger to themselves and all about. My hunters – a rather motley lot of crosses with as little Thoroughbred as possible – they tended more to the large draught-horse - were sensible, clam, bold when need be, and always eager, even after a long day in soft fields, to be up with the Master when the hunt was finally called.

As with people there are all sorts of personalities among the mounts. They have their friends as well as those they could easily do without. Their calling between trailers as we assembled was more animated than the polite recognition of one rider by another. All seemed to know it was an honour to be invited by the Master to ride up, and as the field thinned, as it usually does as the less fit riders and horses retire, there was an unmistakable eagerness and no small amount of jostling as the remaining animals insinuated their way toward the front.

The greatest pleasure comes, I feel, from the joy with which the animals throw themselves into the game. For it is a game – rather odd teams, to be sure, but the rider and the mount are, and together with all the other teams enjoy the community of the herd.

Only the meanest of small-minded miserable individuals could wish an end to this next to indescribable union of man and animal. May the horn be heard in the misty morn and its notes of freedom declare that all the antis have our permission to get stuffed!

Yes!

I spent Christmas in Calgary. Yesterday morning I looked out the window to check the weather and saw a winter white weasel scampering down the road. I thought...a coat!
But my horse and hound were at home. ;(

"Banning the fox hunt was about class envy and destroying any last vestiges of English culture"

minuteman, you took the words out of my mouth, your whole post.

JET - well said.

Jet, that was very a romantic tale. But tell me if I'm wrong, don't the hounds rip apart the fox at the end?

I fail to see the need to support a bunch of old codgers living in the past who want to chase foxes in the woods. JET and others you can romanticise it all you want, but it is what it is and it's utterly stupid.

This *is* the year 2007 after all, not the year 1600.

I agree with minuteman.

Every farm dog is taught to catch and kill rabbits and foxes anyway. They leave the dead animals at the farmer's front door.

So I don't see the problem with an organized hunt which turned into a sport. I've heard that there is now a big movement to ban fox hunting in Ireland as well.

When I see these guys hunting with a model 12 in their saddle boot, I'll believe they peeled back big brother statism ;-)

"I fail to see the need to support a bunch of old codgers living in the past who want to chase foxes in the woods. JET and others you can romanticise it all you want, but it is what it is and it's utterly stupid."

You don't have to support anything!!. In a free country all that is required of you is to leave other people alone. You tolerate us and we tolerate you. The word tolerate means "to put up with". It doesn't mean like, support, or favour. Isn't toleration what we are always told modern society is about?

Nice to see some people in Britain still have a middle finger.

tell me if I'm wrong, don't the hounds rip apart the fox at the end?

multirec, I want to give you something to tag onto that thought. You should associate the two, so that when the first comes to your mind the second automatically occurs:

It's going to happen anyway.

Here in the U.S. and Canada we mostly hunt the fox and his uncouth cousin the coyote with firearms, and fairly powerful ones at that, because the shots are long and something is needed to reach out and touch their hearts. There are still a goodly number of people who hang the carcasses on the fence pour encourager les autres, although that custom is now considered a bit gauche. Those hunts are also something of a ritual, here combined with practical marksmanship training and practice.

Why? Because otherwise we -- and you -- don't eat. Fox and coyote are parasites, every bit as destructive to husbandry as any other. If they aren't destroyed they have a significant negative effect on foodstock levels, so every effort is made to keep their numbers within bearable levels; and, like parasites anywhere, one of their survival strategies is high breeding rates. You might as well be calling cockroaches cuddly and worthy of protection. And since the UK is so hotly opposed to firearms, the only way to destroy the parasites is to have "...the hounds rip apart the fox at the end." It happens every day, in numbers you probably can't imagine.

And besides -- you're probably some form of communitarian. In order to support any community you need community bonding rituals, and the fox hunt is that in spades, and it's one that at once affirms the community values and tends to level or at least ameliorate class distinctions. Hunters have exhilirating fun in a not-too-dangerous environment, affirm their community membership and inheritance of British tradition, and get to watch the Squire's offspring go splat at the wall while John Peter the plowman performs brilliantly and gets the "brush" -- and admiring looks...

You couldn't hire someone to design anything more wonderfully adapted to turn a vulgar and repeated necessity into a community-positive exercise if you spent a billion pounds on consultants. I'm an American; my rituals are different. But from here it's obvious that people who oppose the Hunt are exploiting the squeamishness of urban dwellers as a force to help destroy another bit of the essence of Britishness. Don't be party to it.

To horse!

Regards,
Ric

"I fail to see the need to support a bunch of old codgers living in the past who want to chase foxes in the woods"

Spoken with the self destructive ignorance of big brother conditioning.

Can you not see that it really is none of your business what peoiple do on and with their own property?

Can you not see that if " a bunch of old codgers living in the past who want to chase foxes in the woods" are attacked by the state enforcing personal opinion as restrictuve laws, that YOU can be attacked similarly?

Is it beyond your scope of reasoning to see that any state that can make all your personal prejudices into law to damage people you disagree with also has this power to use against you?

Other than this blank stupidity about the purpose of government, all I see in the anti-hunt proponent are thinly disguised politics of envy and class bigotry.

Ferkissake have the moral decency to simply leave people alone...in the lon run " a bunch of old codgers living in the past who chase foxes in the woods" is absolutely no skin off your nose and does not effect you in any way...why support state repression of something which does not affect you?

Apart from facile resort to the class card, we see exactly the same arguments arrayed against rodeo, hunting, fishing and pretty much any other rural pursuit in Canada. Our local grocery store even labels packages of veal as "grain-fed" in case the animal rights people get upset. It speaks volumes about the detachment from everyday reality of urban, vegan, soy-latte sipping, CBC-listening Canadians.

Multirec @2:26AM

Yes. Just as the fox rips apart the rabbit, the goose, or the hen! The reality of nature is harsh - one is fed while the other is food.

Modern society could well do with the occasional dose of Reality - something the urban dweller in splendid isolation from raw nature avoids while their 'appreciation' and 'understanding' comes from animated animal cartoons.

The issue of the hunt is one of freedom, or rather loss of freedom - imposed by those who do not value that pursuit and can happily do without.

As has been recognized by others and stated firmly herein, when all the freedoms you do not value have been taken by the state, it will be your turn - and by then it will likely be too late.

WL Mackenzie Redux reading your comment makes me believe that the Conservatives will never get a majority in Canada, which is most unfortunate.

You see, like so many, you presume that just because I think the fox hunt is an idiotic thing, therefore I speak "with the self destructive ignorance of big brother conditioning."

That's such a stretch I hardly know where to start.

But the main gist in all these posts is simply this: those who hunt and/or shoot animals are real conservatives, free thinkers, etc., and the rest of us are just left-wing fools, charlatans, etc.

Never mind the fact that some of us are well-educated thinking people with Ph.Ds, that some of us have never have voted Liberal/NDP in our entire lives, that some of us have read and enjoyed everything Steyn has to offer, that we understand the global warming scam, etc. etc. etc., the list is long. And I use the plural "us" intentionally because I am most certainly not alone.

No, none of that matters we're just left-wing kooks in your mind because we don't relish the killing of large animals, and God forbid we might actually respect the little buggers.

And as long as some conservatives continue to use the simplistic notion that if you enjoy killing animals you are one of us, and if you don't, you are not (and you don't understand freedom, etc.), then that tells me that the conservative movement in Canada is stuck in some yesteryear and will never see prime time (ditto for the UK).

This is not a case of letting others live as they want to live, this is a case of being presumed a worthy human being if you hunt, and being presumed worthy of only insults if you dislike the idea.

WLM Redux, let me add more since I'm in the mood.

Yesterday my daughter stumbled on a large quail that had found its way into our chicken coop. The bird panicked and flew into the window, broke its neck, and died on the spot.

I told her that the bird's death was unfortunate and that she should find a pleasant place in the garden to put it to rest.

What should I have told her? "Too bad I didn't get to it with my shotgun first?" Would that have made me more of a conservative and would that have been a better indicator as to whether or not I understand freedom?

I mean please.

TJ, its not a matter of enjoying killing animals. Its a matter of having made a sport out of something that has to be done anyway. As has been said many times already, farmers can't afford to feed the foxes, and will kill them whether or not they do it with hounds and horses.

I am a fisherman and a hunter. Thats not about killing either. Its a matter of putting food on the table. And no, I don't need to do it to put food on the table, but it has been part of our culture since before we were walking upright.

The left wing/right wing divide is not between those who "enjoy" killing animals and those who don't, its between those who want to be left alone and leave other people alone, and those who feel a need to tell other people what to do all the time.

TJ. You could have cleaned it up and eaten it. Why let it go to waste.
Perhaps you should go back and read the comments again as, I suspect you simply don't understand the argument being made. You don't have to kill things to be a good conservative. You simply have to support the notion of freedom to choose to hunt/not hunt. Calling someone a hick or old codger because they go hunting is to demonize or marginalize those individuals paving the way for more "enlightened" (dirty little collectivists) individuals to take away those rights. You seem very sensitive to being labeled a leftist. Perhaps you should stop acting like one.

Warren you are quite wrong. This is not about freedom of choice regarding hunting.

This is about the ridiculous notion that if you like hunting (fox hunting, etc.), then you are entitled to be a member of the conservative/free-thinking (call it what you will) camp, and if you don't like hunting/etc. then you have a small brain and are most certainly a leftist of some fashion or another.

I am always dismayed by this argument because of its sheer stupidity. And it is such arguments that are guaranteed to keep the conservative forces in Canada in a minority position for all eternity.

Prove to me that those who hunt are in some way blessed with some magical thing that gives them the *exclusive* right to be conservatives and I'll concede your point. But if you can't prove it, then stop assuming my political views/etc. based on the fact that I dislike the killing or mistreatment of animals for sport.

If I tell you that I dislike the way the Chinese keep chickens stuffed on top of each other in tiny cages for days on end in hot, muggy marketplaces trying to sell them, will you tell me I am a socialist?

Cheers TJ, you're a socialist. Now could you go back and rephrase your "Prove to me" statement into something less incoherent and wishy-washy.

Thank-you

TJ, I've never hunted anything bigger than a cockroach in my life. I will admit to having hunted those little bastards with a pellet gun when I lived in a particularly noisome apartment in Toronto. Yes, it was a -small- apartment, no I didn't need a follow up shot when I hit one. Yes I hit more than one, it was what you might call a target rich environment.

At any rate, I must say you are quite wrong here. It isn't about hunting, or about likes and dislikes. Its about minding one's own affairs and expecting others to do likewise.

Fine, you don't like the way the Chinese guy keeps his chickens. As a conservative minded individual you either mind your own business or go ask the Chinese guy if maybe he could do something for the damn chickens. If the guy rightly tells you to push off, and you feel strongly enough, you BUY THE CHICKENS.

That's what conservatives do, because they believe in property rights and such. His store, his chickens, his right. Buy the chickens or shut up.

A liberal will whine to the SPCA and have the guy hauled in to court whether he's following the regulations or not. Failing that they will arrange for a ban on live chicken sales, or possibly burn down the guy's shop. In England, both. "Liberate" the poor chickens, bankrupt and/or jail and/or shoot the Chinese guy because it feeeeeels like the right thing to do. Unless his Chinese ethnicity and/or downtrodden social status and/or the phase of the moon trump chicken's rights this week.

Likewise fox hunting. See how this works?

The thing with socialists hating hunting on principle is nonsense. Socialists don't -have- principles. They have causes, enthusiasms. Guidelines, if you will.

The nearest thing there is to a socialist principle is hating anything Conservatives like and loving what Conservatives dislike. Conservatives like free speech, there must be censorship. Conservatives like private enterprise, it must be destroyed. Conservatives don't like abortion, its a friggin' sacrament.

If Conservatives campaigned against hunting on religious grounds, every socialist wanker in Toronto would have a gun rack in his Prius and a stuffed deer head on his living room wall. Hunting would be taught in kindergarten.

"See Bambi. See Bambi run. Run Bambi run. See the nice, brave ecologically sound hunter nail eeevile Bambi with a perfect chest shot. Mmm, Bambi is yummy!"

'Nuff said.

A HUNTING WE WILL GO A HUNTING WE WILL GO HI HO ODERIO A HUNTING WE WILL GO. CATCH A FOX PUT HIM IN A BOX AND WONT LET HIM GO. AND TALLY HO