Good evening ladies & gentlemen. In keeping with the common respect for multiple cultures we honour here, and the spirit of the season, tonight on SDA Late Nite Radio we have a special treat, a collection of popular Ukrainian artists performing the Christmas classic Dobry Vechir Tobi:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntrBPWh-RAg

Vitruvius - you were right - a variety is best. Thanks for posting these clips - you've got me hooked and wondering what the next night will bring.

A poll from the UK - appears people might be taking a closer look at climate change - and the facts.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/dmpolls/results.html?in_poll_id=20008&in_page_id=770&in_question_id=19476&in_exists=N&in_answer1=59668

Supreme Court Justice William Jefferson Clinton?

The Wall Street Journal tries to stir up trouble. Maybe it's payback for all that Billy Shaheen nonsense last week.

See how troublesome condensed green house gas is.

A question many of us have wondered about it Why did the liberals suddenly become so conserned with KS, after 8 yrs, and being responsible for signing his deportation order, change their tune and start defending him. Perhaps Jason Cherniak has inadvertently let the cat out of the bag.
In one of his posts he questions who paid PMSH's leadership debts, could it, he asks have been KS. PMSH better come clean or that rumor might spread.
Let's turn the tables on Jason, could KS have promised to pay off all liberal leadership debts if they keep him in Canada? Those debts are high, and must be paid very soon.
How can we find out if these debts have suddenly been reduced.

The plot thickens in Bolivia. Apparently the productive people aren't overjoyed about Morales' wealth redistribution plan. There's not much news yet, just AP and the BBC, and I don't trust them, but this is what we've got for now:

www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/12/16/news/Bolivia-Autonomy.php

The true nature of Islam is discovered by Canadians: "it's not fair", Williams says.
No, Williams, it's not. You have just been mugged by reality.

Islam: a murderous death cult of misogyny: hatred of women; a hatred so vile Islam murders women; in Basra, Iraq, and Toronto, Canada.
...-

Basra: Tossed from a car and shot in cold blood (48 women killed in 6 mos. for un-Islamic behaviour)

IT WAS just after 11pm and the shopkeeper was closing up for the night when a van screeched to a halt outside. The back doors flew open. “Someone inside threw a woman onto the street,” he said. “She was lying on the road but she was still alive. A man lent out and shot a machine-gun into her body.” ...-
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1940175/posts

Friends feel cheated at vigil
By DON PEAT, SUN MEDIA

""I'm really upset and angry," Williams said. "I feel cheated out of a friend's funeral. They tricked us and it's not fair." ...-
http://tinyurl.com/25w7r4 (canoe news)

Gunter & Goldstein: It's your fault, stupid. You are guilty, stupid.
...-

Was the killing of Aqsa a Muslim act?
No culture has a monopoly on fatal disagreements between fathers and daughters
Lorne Gunter, Freelance
http://tinyurl.com/35sm4f
...-

By LORRIE GOLDSTEIN, TORONTO SUN
Murder elicits the extreme
The killing of Aqsa Parvez needs to push the debate forward so it doesn't happen again
[...]

But we must also remember Aqsa Pervez is not the first child to die, allegedly, at the hands of a parent, and that those who commit such heinous crimes come from all backgrounds, religions and beliefs.

Solutions will come not from unfairly denouncing Islam or Muslims, but from figuring out how we can better reach out to, free and protect the innocent targets of domestic violence, who are found in every culture.

Further, we must ally ourselves with the growing voices of sensible and courageous Canadians like Tarek Fatah and the Muslim Canadian Congress. ...-
http://tinyurl.com/3cggo6

CULTURAL REVOLUTION, CULTURE WAR:
HOW CONSERVATIVES LOST ENGLAND AND HOW TO GET IT BACK.

free download of this book:

http://www.candidlist.demon.co.uk/hampden/culturewar2.pdf

Sean Gabb is a libertarian-Conservative from Britain and the more I read his messagaing on the degeneration of Britain though state enforced Political Correctness (actually cultural sovietism) the more I see the situation applies here,

Here's his web site:
http://www.seangabb.co.uk/

"Environmentalism: The Last Communist Refuge
With the collapse of socialism at the end of the 1980s, it looked for a moment as if all the barriers had been lifted to unlimited improvement for the whole human race. It seemed that we could look forward to a world in which everyone had a motor car and a refrigerator and a telephone.

Environmentalism: The Last Communist Refuge

Then the environmental movement grew big. This had been around since the early 1960s. At first, it concentrated on things like chemical pollution and rapid population growth and how the world would soon run out of oil and other minerals. The problem was that its claims were always proved to be wrong.

For example, we were told in the 1960s that population growth would soon lead to mass starvation. In the event, living standards continued to rise faster and faster all over the world.

Again, we were told that the oil would run out before the middle of the 1980s. In the event, more and more oil was found, and we now know that we have enough o last for centuries to come.

Again we were told in the 1970s that industrialisation was leading to global cooling and that there would soon be another ice age. This also did not happen.

But, since the collapse of socialism, the environmental movement has grown bigger and bigger, and is now arguing for regulations and taxes that would soon stop all further economic growth—particularly in Asia, India, Africa and South America. That is the goal of all this endless propaganda in the media, and all the talk about carbon footprints.

Now, it may be that there really is a problem with the environment. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. But I find it historically significant that environmentalism has grown big at the very moment when every other argument against human progress has been disproved.

I therefore believe that the claims of the environmentalists are lies. They are an excuse for returning humanity to a dark age of inequality and stagnation.""

Beebosaurus gets in on the trend:

BBC staff rewrote Wikipedia pages to water down criticism

BBC officials repeatedly altered the Wikipedia internet encyclopaedia to water down attacks on the corporation, The Independent on Sunday can disclose....

An investigation of "anonymous" edits on the site has revealed that the broadcaster's staff rewrote parts of a page entitled "Criticism of the BBC" to defuse press attacks on "political correctness". Also included in more than 7,000 Wikipedia edits by BBC workers are unflattering references to rival broadcasters – and even the corporation's biggest names.

our friends, neighbors and allies. BZ

http://michellemalkin.com/2007/12/15/the-wreath-laying-at-arlington-cemetery/

Amazing

And if anyone wonders what the goal of enviro-mentalists is:

http://www.lttonline.co.uk/lttxtraarticle.php?uid=7064

...Anothe Pol Pot - like year zero.

Just like the islamo-fascists, the enicro-fascists don't hide their agenda. It's incredible that people ignore what they are saying.

Via Greenie Watch

Just in case you are a Zeppelin fan, here's the opening song from Monday's show - I think it's from a cell phone. Zeppelin were beyond politics - they just enjoyed what they did and that's why they are still relevant - and it's fun to see them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsHcUwtw5H0&NR=1

"Solutions will come not from unfairly denouncing Islam or Muslims, but from figuring out how we can better reach out to, free and protect the innocent targets of domestic violence, who are found in every culture."

These are the idiots who must have no voice in this debate. They know nothing - and because of their ignorance and worship of cultural relativism - they aid and abet Islamic horror. Allowing it to scurry like a cockroach back into hiding after striking.

Yes, it is Islam. The ideology must be dragged, kicking and screaming into the light for all Canadians to see. This ideology uniquely inspires, in fact demands and rewards, a culture of death.

Until the majority of Canadians understand this and read it for themselves in the Islamic texts, there will only be more unrest, hatred, raciism, bigotry, misogyny and violence. Not answers.

Sunday/9 a.m.

An interesting item has just come over the t.v. Financial Chanel in an interview with a U of Texas professor.

He claims that Chalk River is not the only producer of radio active isotopes - apparently there is one in the U.S and another in Europe. It seems that the one in the U.S. is idle right now for x-mas break and may not have been approached to cover off a potential world shortage if Chalk River was shut down for repair/upgrade/whatever. Nor, apparently was the one in Europe.

Further - apparently Canada is using high grade stocks for production while The U.S. is in the process of converting to low grade stock. In lieu of the media hype about a world shortage of isotopes/people dying thing, the U.S. may soon be pursuing the enhancing of production for their own consumption.

If any/all of this has legs then please, can the powers that be do the right thing here - the end product is not some baby formula or plastic toy.

@cconn - The New York Times said Led Zeppelin was well rehearsed, and enjoyed themselves on stage. Robert Plant missed that one high note on "there walks a lady we all know" on Stairway to Heaven.

Crossword Bebop, quite possibly the first international crossword blog, is blogging on this week's Canadiana Crossword here
Not very many Americans know there is a Parsnip Glacier in BC.

Defeated in Iraq, Al Qaeda Migrates to Maghreb - Next Stop: Europe

The twin blasts that caused such devastation in Algeria this week posted a grim announcement that an Islamic group, once thought to have been defeated, is back in its bloody business. Poised to extend its ruthless tactics throughout North Africa, it is making the first stop towards its ultimate target - the European continent. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb*, (AQIM) is becoming a dominant element in Osama Bin Laden's global terror ambition. The attack in Algeria last Tuesday seems clearly linked to the regional strategy of weakening the secular governments in North Afirca,[sic] the Maghreb, resuming the 1990s warfare against Kuffar (infidel) institutions, society and administrations.

But unlike in the past decade, these operations are now strategically coordinated with Al-Qaeda central direction, not only in terms of operations, but by distinct policies and international decision-making.

Al-Qaeda may have lost its grip in some areas, but certainly has grown into dangerous proportions in another highly strategic environment, creating "clear and present" threat to European nations, which already have a significant portion of unstable Muslim immigrants, an ideal breeding ground for local terrorist and insurgency. ...-
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1940159/posts

*Maghreb, Maghrib: According to the most limited definition, the Maghrib are the 3 countries touched by the Atlas Mountains: Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. ...-
http://lexicorient.com/e.o/maghreb.htm

maz2, if only Bush hadn't blowm up the World Trade Centre, none of this would be happening. Not.

In "Keeping the faith for the sake of all our Aqsa Parvezes," Rosie DiManno in the Toronto Star calls out all our spineless human rights advocates:

...It's all grist for debate. But when the issue is Islam, debate – or disagreement – is hazardous.
So even feminist warriors, decades after social emancipation rewrote human rights laws, are leery of giving offence. The Baal of multiculturalism – recast to incorporate radical interpretation of religious and cultural imperatives – has trumped gender equality.

In Afghanistan, before the pariah Taliban regime was ousted, women were stoned to death on the slimmest of accusations – but the world took more outrage at the destruction of Buddhist statues.

In Afghanistan, a girl once sobbed in my lap because she was taking the burqa the next day. Do not dare try to tell me she had a "choice.''

Increasingly, in the predominantly Shia section of Iraq, women are being murdered for not covering up sufficiently. In Saudi Arabia, total concealment is the law.

This is infantalization of women, every one an apparent succubus.

The hijab is not the burqa? When coerced, there's no difference.

Some years ago, in Ontario, women won the right to go topless in public, a silly legal benchmark that now feels like it happened on another planet. Such was the agreement in an era of muscular gender emancipation. Now we have human rights complaints over airport uniforms – slacks and mid-calf skirts – not modest enough to appease one's religious sensibilities.

Where are the feminists? The civil libertarians? The secularists? Browbeaten into silence.

I know all about immigrant families and the desire to retain traditions – obsequious conduct – from ancestral lands. I know all about leaving the house dressed one way and arriving at school, presto, dressed another. I know all about pining to look and act like one of the group, not an alien. There was a time when I genuinely believed my father would kill me for shaming him. I don't think I have a single female cousin who wasn't beaten for rebelling.

But, in this country, in my lifetime, that was never socially acceptable. In time, assimilation sanded off the rougher edges of that conflict. The in-between existence of immigrant children, straddling two cultures, found its own balance. Time will do that.

There are casualties, though. Occasionally, a senseless death will hit the headlines, filling us with revulsion. But countless more – daughters in cages – are leading lives of quiet desperation. In the angst of adolescence, more will die by their own hand than be murdered by righteous fathers.

Time, and pity, ran out on Aqsa Parvez, it would seem.

- Hard to believe the Star still tolerates her.

Russian involvement in Bali agreement?

Russia is to blame for the fact that the agreement contained no figure for the "deep cuts" needed in carbon emissions, The Sunday Telegraph has learned.

In tense negotiations late on Friday, officials of a smaller group of just 12 countries almost agreed a footnote that would have referred to the need for a 50 per cent cut by 2050.

A western official said: "We got to the phrase 'long-term goal' and the Russians set on the whole thing. They would not accept any target, not even in a footnote referring to the science."

Fearful that the Russians were prepared to scupper the whole agreement, other countries backed off

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/12/16/eaclimate116.xml

Irwin Daisy, this is inspired writing and something that all Canadians should read. It speaks directly to the heart of the matter.

"Solutions will come not from unfairly denouncing Islam or Muslims, but from figuring out how we can better reach out to, free and protect the innocent targets of domestic violence, who are found in every culture."

These are the idiots who must have no voice in this debate. They know nothing - and because of their ignorance and worship of cultural relativism - they aid and abet Islamic horror. Allowing it to scurry like a cockroach back into hiding after striking.

Yes, it is Islam. The ideology must be dragged, kicking and screaming into the light for all Canadians to see. This ideology uniquely inspires, in fact demands and rewards, a culture of death.

Until the majority of Canadians understand this and read it for themselves in the Islamic texts, there will only be more unrest, hatred, raciism, bigotry, misogyny and violence. Not answers.

Well said!!!

Pat

Imagine Taliban Jack in a hejab! Or, an elevator burqa?
...-

Jack Layton and the NDP versus transgendered ex-candidate Micheline Montreuil

The NDP has a problem. The party is eager to build on the success of Thomas Mulcair to make a real breakthrough in Quebec. But transgendered candidate Micheline Montreuil was problematic. Depending on who you listen to, she was not a team player, or her gender status was considered to be a liability.

The NDP has dropped her as a candidate.

And now it looks like the NDP is going to learn what it feels like to be worked over by the Human Rights Tribunal. ...-
http://stevejanke.com/

irwin daisy:
Ever come across the term: hurriyya?
I just encountered it in a piece by Andrew Bostom at English Review in which he took on Bernard Lewis who said in a recent speech: "The authoritarianism present in the Middle East region is not part of the Arab and Muslim tradition, but it has been imported from Europe". [Btw, Lewis also, in an interview I saw, opinied that Islamic antisemitism was imported from Europe/Christianity].

Hurriyya and the uniquely Western concept of freedom are completely at odds. Hurriyya “freedom” — as Ibn Arabi (d. 1240) the lionized “Greatest Sufi Master”, expressed it — “being perfect slavery.” And this conception is not merely confined to the Sufis’ perhaps metaphorical understanding of the relationship between Allah the “master” and his human “slaves.”

I broke out laughing reading that! It underlines the extreme danger trying to "dialogue" with this death cult without an exhaustive definition of terms beforehand!
Democracy in Iraq? In which constitution the sharia law is incorporated?

ALSO, a new fact (for me) from Walid Shoebat's book "Why We Want To Kill You": a Muslim who dies performing jihad, including suicide bombing, not only goes to paradise at the first drop of his blood after experiencing pain no worse than a mosquito bite, but also gets to intercede to allow 70 Muslims left behind to go to paradise -- who would otherwise go to hell! [Shoebat is a former Islamic terrorist who converted to Christianity and became a Israel/US supporter].
Man, there's a powerful incentive structure for ya, eh?

Seconding Pat's remark: great stuff irwin!

pat and me no dhimmi - I think what you are praising as written by Irwin Daisy was in reality written by the Star columnist, Rosie DiManno. Irwin left out the quotation marks.

I agree with Ms DiManno's writings far more often than I agree with Irwin Daisy's.

As she says, assimilation and time, will deal with the issue of conflict between cultural modes. Irwin Daisy rejects that Islam can change. I disagree; it can and must change. But, we, via multiculturalism and our policy of cultural relativism, are hampering its ability to change.

We, via multiculturalism, are setting up immigrant groups into isolate fiefdoms that are disabled from any capacity to change and indeed, are made more rigid and unyielding within the protectionism of multiculturalism.

We have to insist that our basic axioms are non-negotiable; that all immigrants are required to participate in these axioms: a civil secular society, equality of men and women, freedom of speech, thought and belief, a focus on individual merit, ie, democracy, rather than group domination.

Islam: Not Just Another Religion
By Janet Levy

This campaign season, presidential candidates seem intent on battling each other with a war of words over universal healthcare, tax reform, immigration, the war in Iraq, the economy and Biblical literalism. Yet, they have spent few words on and have literally ignored the greatest threat to America and Western civilization since the Cold War: the global jihad. [...]

Romney courageously stated,

"It's this century's nightmare: jihadism; violent radical Islamic fundamentalism. Their goal is to unite the world under a single Jihadist Caliphate. To do that, they must collapse freedom-loving nations like us." ...-
http://tinyurl.com/2wwext (american thinker)

Thanks Pat and Me No Dhimmi.

I can't understand people like Bernhard Lewis. I've read him and find myself agreeing with about half of what he says. The rubbish that you pointed out confuses me. He claims to be an expert on ME/Islam. In light of the Islamic texts and the ideology that has been practiced for all of these hundreds of years, I would like him to provide evidence for these claims. I am no Islamic scholar. Just somebody who is alarmed enough to study it as much as possible. Even so, I can disprove those statements based on what is written in their own texts, as well as historical fact. The Islamic texts are rife with anti-semitism. As well, political Islam is beyond authoritarian. It demands complete submission, in turn providing a complete way of life, including a political and legal system - all of which can only possibly be defined as totalitarian.

Even their cognitive system is irrational and alien: Dualism.

There are these half truth, so-called 'scholars' who are just as deceptive as any Muslim imam practicing taqiyya and kitman. Perhaps worse, because they are not Muslim. Yet they've set themselves up in positions of advising western leaders on Islam.

Half truths are often more manipulative and dangerous than complete lies.

I believe the best way to deal with the danger of Islam is to study it and inform others, including understanding the Arabic terms. It renders their outrageous lies and claims null and void.

ET,

It seems you're having a reading comprehension problem. Neither Pat nor MND quoted, or were refering to the Rosie article I posted. (Which, I am not claiming to be my writing, as you've implied).

"I agree with Ms DiManno's writings far more often than I agree with Irwin Daisy's."

What is this, a competition? Does this statement bring extra heft to your point of view?

Multiculturalism does aid the spread of Islam. It also atones for the attrocities commited by Muslims. However, the Islamic ideology is the root cause of perpetual Islamic attrocities. This is historically true, long before the recent construct of multiculturalism.

To suggest that if we rid ourselves of multiculturalism, somehow, magically, all the Muslim violence would disappear, is rudely naive and ignorant. And has no historical precedent.

irwin daisy, I at no time claimed that YOU were claiming Ms DiManno's article as your own. You are too ready, always, to get angry.

Nor am I setting up a competition between you and Ms DiManno. I have always felt that your view of Islam is too harsh and angry.

i disagree with you that the Islamic ideology is the "root cause of perpetual Islamic atrocities". The Wahhabi sect is most certainly an aberration, but I claim that the tribal sociopolitical system, confronting a civic sociopolitical system, is the root cause. Not the ideology - for that ideology only validates the socioeconomic and political system.

You think the opposite; for you, the ideology is the Base. For me, the socioeconomic/political system is the Base. My point is that we, in the West, who permit Islamic min-nations in our midst via multiculturalism, that are not required to assimilate to our socioeconomic/political modes - means that they will not change their ideology. So, I think that we have to insist that multiculturalism end, and that immigrants accept our basic axioms. That will force Islam, in our country, to change. Other countries must do the same - and they already are (Netherlands, Australia, France). But it has to be voiced and insisted upon.

As for Bernard Lewis, I disagree with his view of the Islamic world; he's part of the Old Orientalist School. A long tradition in British history. This is the British Empire Orientalism, which saw the Middle East and China, as two Ancient Empires, and treated them as such. It, in a sense, removed them from any sense of history as an evolution. They were two Different Modes of Life, both of them viewed as empires, and self-sufficient in themselves. There wasn't any attempt to understand them in terms of the evolution of human individualism, freedoms, the development of science, technology, medicine. None of that. In this old school of thought, you viewed these two 'civilizations' as complete, in themselves. That's Bernard Lewis.

So, he can say, without a twinge, that the 'authoritarianism in (current) ME is not part of the Islamic tradition...but..is European'..and he'll believe that. Because he's looking at the Islamic world as a complete imperial cognitive reality. Closed, unchanging. He sees tribal authority in the old mode, different from the current dictatorial authority in the current ME. Fine. But he doesn't understand that its old tribalism can't function within a large population, within an industrial economy and therefore, has become corrupted and dictatorial. It isn't imported from the West.

Lewis just doesn't understand how the tribal infrastructure of the ME, as outlined in traditional Islam, is now perverted and corrupt. He thinks that any of its changes, are due to external influence, not to the system itself become 'sick' from within. That's the old British Orientalist School.

Where is the UN? The Human Rights Advocates? And why are we allowing Muslims to immigrate here?

Non Muslims are to be denied Maldivian citizenship in the new Constitution, after 78 members of the Peoples Special Majlis (Constitutional Assembly) voted on 19 November 2007 in favor to approve an amendment that requires all Maldivian citizens to be Muslims. Prominent Maldivian lawyers have expressed concern following the passage of the clause in the new Constitution stating fears that the prerequisite to be a Muslim for Maldivian citizenship would create complications. Lawyers predicted that the new clause would deprive a number of current citizens of Maldivian citizenship, resulting in some Maldivians becoming stateless after the proclamation of the new Constitution.

ET: You mentioned Orientalism. If you're referring to Edward Said (who I believe is increasingly being seen as a fraud), might be interesting for you to check out these two pieces. I was quite surprised to learn that Said was a English Lit professor and, by his own admission, did no original research on the Middle East -- all second hand stuff. His politicking trumped his scholarship I gather. Kind of like Chomsky I'm wondering (whose field was linguistics not history or foreign policy).
I'm curious: are you are a Said fan?

Did Said really speak truth to power?

The Bertrand Russell of Islam

The latter is a review of book by the brilliant former Islamic scholar - now atheist - Ibn Warraq, who takes on Said's Orientalism.

ET: Here are irwin daisy's words to which I referred echoing Pat (without of course knowing what Pat was referencing)

irwin daisy's TorStar quote:
"Solutions will come not from unfairly denouncing Islam or Muslims, but from figuring out how we can better reach out to, free and protect the innocent targets of domestic violence, who are found in every culture."

irwin daisy's remarks re: above (and I agree with every single word).
These are the idiots who must have no voice in this debate. They know nothing - and because of their ignorance and worship of cultural relativism - they aid and abet Islamic horror. Allowing it to scurry like a cockroach back into hiding after striking.
Yes, it is Islam. The ideology must be dragged, kicking and screaming into the light for all Canadians to see. This ideology uniquely inspires, in fact demands and rewards, a culture of death.
Until the majority of Canadians understand this and read it for themselves in the Islamic texts, there will only be more unrest, hatred, raciism, bigotry, misogyny and violence. Not answers

Me: I do not see this as a "domestic violence" story, tho there was obviously a house, a family, and violence perpetrated against one of its members. This was a honour killing. An islamic honour killing for contra sharia behaviour. It's the Islam, Stupid (not referring to you here ET -- just paraphasing the famous phrase).

"We, via multiculturalism, are setting up immigrant groups into isolate fiefdoms that are disabled from any capacity to change and indeed, are made more rigid and unyielding within the protectionism of multiculturalism."

- ET, 3:45 PM.

@ET: You may find some comfort in the thought that, for every isolated feif, there is eventually a liege lord. It's thought such as these that keep me from slagging away at the multi-cultis (unless I decide to join a slag fest already in progress.)

Just watching Jane Taber and Craig Oliver on CTV . What a pair of slobbering fools they are. Giggles is trying real hard to put dirt on the Conservatives. Sad

Rob C, watching Giggles and The Owl will do that to you!

me no dhimmi - yes, I know Said's work, both his Orientalism and his work in Eng. Lit, which was in literary postmodernism. I absolutely cannot stand postmodernism. Or Said's Orientalism, which is directly derived from postmodernism. I start to fume and froth when dealing with postmodernism. Said is a version, in a way, of Bernard Lewis; he's the postmodernist Bernard Lewis. It would take too long to explain, but, both ignore the economic, demographic and political forces of a society.

I wasn't referring to Said's Orientalism when I was talking about the Oriental School of British History. I was really referring to the old British scholarly studies of the Middle and Far East. Classical Orientalism was an academic field where you went to the university and thoroughly learned the language and texts of those peoples. Your view of their history was via their texts, their architecture, art, and so on. It was very 'learned; these people knew the language, the texts, the scholars.

But - It completely ignored the ecology, the demographics and population base, the economy, the political and kinship structure etc. It was a mode of historical analysis focused around individuals (Great Man Style of History), texts, etc. I don't think that this explains what is really going on.

That's why I reject Bernard Lewis' view of the ME; it's classical Orientalism, focused around the texts, individuals, etc. And I reject Said's Orientalism which is pure postmodern phenomenology. Awful stuff.

ET: Phew! I really wasn't looking forward to a second battle front with you! :) [however, I seriously doubted you were!] Thanks -- most interesting.

This might amuse you:
My very liberal daughter has a Doctorate (DMA) in music from Juilliard -- she lives in NYC and is a professional musician. A couple years back I was telling her about this ME scholar I'd encountered [Lewis] but couldn't remember his name (senior's moment). Her eyes lit up with beatific light: Edward Said!?!. Only much later did I remember that it was Bernard Lewis.

Yeah, I'm very conflicted on Lewis. I did read his little book: "What Went Wrong? The Clash between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East" which I remember as being pretty decent. But, again, there are those CLUNKERS.

Say Amen, Gaia. Amen, Gaia.
...-

"though CO2 levels are still rising, global temperatures are not
- a fact mentioned in Bali by precisely no one)."
...-

Delegates depart Bali talks on a lot of hot air
[...]

perhaps the best summing up of what they had achieved came from Humberto Rosa, head of the delegation representing the European Union.

"It is exactly what we wanted," he said. "We are very pleased. We will now have two tremendously demanding years, starting in January. Many meetings, many discussions, many people passing many hours doing things." ...-
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1940438/posts

me no dhimmi - the thing about the British (and European) orientalism, was that it was really an in-depth study of the language and texts of the ME and Orient.

To reveal a bit, I went into that field for my first university degree - in the Far East, specifically, China and Chinese. It was taught in the European/British mode. You went into the language and original ancient texts. And you really studied them. And the ancient history, philosophy etc.

Geography? Ecology? Economy? Demographics? Nothing, nothing. So, the British orientalism is an exceedingly learned study. These scholars, and Lewis is one of them, really knew the language, the texts, the scholarly studies about the texts and so on. So, Lewis etc is, in my view, far more knowledgeable about the ME than Said.

But, it's a Textual Knowledge. Not the real guts of why a people even wrote and used those texts and thought in that manner. It's this that I want to know - why did they develop these thoughts; why did they think this way.
Lewis doesn't do this.

Neither does Said. His dreadful theory is postmodern phenomenology; that is, that we in the West view the ME/Orient within our biased perception. The ME/Orient is therefore a product of our concepts -and we are evil colonizers. It's trivial, it totally ignores the reality of economies. Oh, and Said doesn't explain what was going on in the minds of the Muslims when they were busy conquering the Mediterranean; hmmm..was that colonization?

So- Said is leftist. Bernard Lewis is Old School Orientalism, which is neither left nor right.

ET: Thanks for the clarification. I had initially misunderstood your comment on Orientalism which field I now understand to be highly learned but limited to the texts -- lacking in a nuts and bolts grounding on how those texts came into being -- the influences of georgraphy, ecology, economics, etc. Which I gather is the basis for your comments on the emergence of Islam on other threads which some people find very frustrating. :)

A most interesting observation about Said-colonization. I'm lucky to carry away a couple of insights from most of the stuff I read. That was the big lesson I got from reading Efraim Karsh (Islamic Imperialism, Empires of the Sand). That colonialism was the fashion of the era -- that western liberal apologists seem to not know about Ottoman Colonialism; that if they did, they may be more reticent in adopting that simplistic meme that all the ME problems are due to Great Britain/France/US intervention; that there was a interwoven community of interventions, if you will.

This blog is great !!

Dan Fogelberg loses to prostate cancer.

One of my favourite songwriters.