That's nothing- watch how many government flunkies jet off to Cannes for a 'conference',( which co-incides with the film festival).

Kate,

Four are from OTTAWA.

A .1 to .5 hour bus ride (or a healthy walk) to Baird's office.

Help me out here.

10,000 people, most from North America and Europe, travel to a destination about as far away from those places as it is possible to get, to whine about CO2 emmissions. Do I have it right?

Part two. I know this is crazy talk and all, but why would 32 Canadians travel half way across the globe to talk to a minister, when all they have to do is head to Ottawa? Would that not be a tad more eco-friendly? Especially the four from Ottawa. I mean all they had to do was hop a bus.

They flew to the far side of the globe to meet with a man who lives in their own country? Yeah, that makes sense -- after all, their carbon credits magically made all that jet pollution vanish into thin air.

A taxfunded vacation, cant say Ive had one of those since I had a summer job in Manitoba 34 years ago. the skeeters in Manitoba where bigger than the birds on the Bali beach.

They're young. Too ignorant to know how badly they've been duped.

It's time to jog terence's links out there again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOLkze-9GcI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN06JSi-SW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCXDISLXTaY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQQGFZHSno

The ones to Professor Bob Carter's lecture.

I would go so far as to say that if ANY Canadian school board wants to allow teachers to show "An Inconvenient Truth" to students (or has already shown it, or bused students off to see Gore speak), they should be compelled to show the students that short series, also.

This one, too:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7819184350661384634
(Google Video: "Michael Crichton - Fear, Complexity, and Environmental Management in the 21ST Century")

"Global Warming" or "Climate Change" do not exist, at least not as some sort of formally recognized human-induced kind of thing. The Earth warms up, the Earth cools down... one can leave it at that.

Sorry, John Cross, but you're just plain wrong; no, I won't discuss it with you over a leisurely latte, I'm not a scientist... but I'm able to read and think, listen and understand. I can't tear down and rebuild an automobile engine like a team of A.J. Foyt's mechanics, but I can understand they are TRULY experts in their field, if ya know what I mean.

Holy carbon credits! Lets hope the moonbats pick up a little of that old speciality, Bali Belly. I bet the birthrate will rise greatly among those kiddies after the usual time. Tee Hee!

Here's the bio on David Nobel.

http://www.iisd.org/about/staffbio.aspx?id=812

Looks like he has no thoughts about setting up a 'consultancy' business while sucking on the 'ol government tete.

Nothing like risk free ventures that one can incubate with other peoples' money.

Stop for a minute, and imagine how many of these people are out there in the civil service, building bureaucracies, managing empires, and producing meaningless make work reports.

Does the liberal gravy train never end? I guess these are the kinds of junkets we're going to have to get used to, with a thoroughly brainwashed younger generation, unless PM Stephen Harper and the CPC get a majority.

The magical thinking never ends. If I think it, it is.

'No empirical proof needed, no need for discussion. If I THINK Global Warming is the #1 crisis facing humanity, and that humans are largely to blame, full steam ahead, and "don't confuse me with the facts."

The carbon footprint these 32 are leaving behind is vastly bigger than I and my family will create in our combined lifetimes. 'Last time I flew anywhere was 2004, my husband and I share a car, and we live in an apartment.

one can only imagine their parents Christmas letter.

Frank had his hernia operation after 50 weeks on the waitlist.
Emma was voted best parent of the school for making the school assembly gender neutral, the school assembly is now both mandatory and womandatory.
Little Emelda our oldest daughter now wears a hajib to school in sympathy for her sisters stuggles, she does not play soccer as they are banned but has opted for judo in order to create a controvery and news story.
But our greatest achiever this year is little Sasha ( who we named in tribute to PETs spawn)who along with 49 of his peers saved the planet with his taxpayer funded trip to Bali. There he met with Stephane Dion and did 50 "dat is not fair"chants in a row in protest that other canadians had to sit in the cold and not experience the crisis of the global warming in ernest in Bali.

PS, we will be away on Quadra Island for the rest of the winter on the David Suzuki"spread your own night soil" campaign.

http://ww w.liveleak.com/view?i=c4c_1197704529

Yep.

Global warming.

Strong enough to stop a locomotive.

One more thing: This whole Global Warming/Carbon Credit scam is a case of massive projection. The Goreacles, Sukookis, and galaxy of Hollywood and Music stars whose feet are way too big (h/t Fats Waller) feel guilty about their massive consumption of the world's resources and decide that SOMETHING MUST BE DONE.

The SOMETHING, of course, is to dump on the rest of us, to demand that the rest of us scrimp and save on energy, while they pig out BUT pay carbon credits to THEIR companies. The end result is that they get increasingly richer as they continue to deplete the earth of its resources, while the rest of us get poorer and are made to feel guilty every time we turn on a light.

http://ww w.liveleak.com/view?i=c4c_1197704529

Yep.

Global warming.

What Southern Pacific needs to do instead of using that locomotive, is get the Gooficle and Dr. Fruitbats minions to do a bit of shovelling.

2 from Vancouver BC
1 from Sherwood Park Alberta
1 from Saskatoon Saskatchewan
1 from Deloraine Manitoba

and 16 from Ontario
it almost sounds like the Canadian Senate sent these folks

Nightmare, your link isn't working

So this is handy...a list of Canada's most deluded cultists.

Probabaly all either "useful idiots" or making a living from transnationalist progressive cons.

pete copy and paste. close the space between thw w's.

I don't know if kate would allow a hotlink.

Ya gotta wonder who paid for this.
Geez, I would have declared myself a member of the environmental cult & demanded a meeting with anyone if only someone else would have offered to pick up the tab.

Again, Kyotoism is a money laundering scam. It has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the climate. Nothing to do with warming/cooling; nothing to do with pollution. Nothing.

The Bali Conference made that very clear. Gone are the original rhetoric about 'saving the world' and the 'indisputable science'. That's gone. It's gone not only because reputable science has come forward and debunked the propaganda of the IPCC. It's gone because it had no validity right from the beginning. It began and remains, a scam.

The G77 nations (the so-called developing nations, which include China (already highly developed) and India) were very outspoken and clear in Bali.
They absolutely and totally refused to participate in any standards, in any controls, on CO2 emissions or pollution. NONE. They declared that they are industrializing, that they have the 'right' to industrialize [Note: yet another basic UN human right?]...and that this right means NO Standards. No controls on emissions or pollution.

The only nations required, according to them and the UN,to use controls, are the G8, the already industrialized nations. BUT, BUT - even this is of little interest.

The G77 nations aren't really interested in controls. Anywhere. What they want is Money. Money, Money, Money. From the West. What they want is for the West to pay for the industrialization of the entire world.

In the 19th c, this action by the West, ie, industrializing non-industrial countries, was derided and viewed with contempt. Remember? It was called 'colonization'. And, Big Corporations Taking Over. The fact that this was actually, the West, building railways, factories, cities, roads etc - heh - it was Evil, because it changed the Sacred Purity of the Native Natural Life.

Now - hmmm, these countries want to industrialize. Fine. But they still don't want to pay for it. They want the West to continue to fund it. But - without any strings. The money mustn't come as a loan. Nor as foreign investment.

No, the UN has come up with yet another UN Money Scam. This time, the money must come as Sin Money.

You make the West feel that they are guilty of an enormous Evil to the Planet. You come up with all kinds of Models Of Evil. Not actual facts. Models. And you use the Mob Tactic to drive the agenda. Young people and dumb people are both prey to Mob Tactics. So, the Mob Tactic is based on emotion, and the UN Mob Tactic was to set up an apocalpytic scenario, worse than any Jurassic Park or Incoming Asteroid. This time, caused by Man. Evil Man of the West. Only the West.

How to get out of this Basic Sin? Money. Money. Money. Pay money to the 'developing nations' so that they can industrialize. Not as loans. Not as foreign investment. Just hand it over.

But wait. These G77 refuse to be part of any controls on emissions and pollution. So, overall, the West will pay...to increase...global emissions and pollution. Hmmm. And the Mob and the UN are OK with this! They don't insist on any controls in these non-western countries!

Result? Increased emissions and pollution in the planet. But, isn't the UN and The Mob telling us that The West is Evil because it pollutes? Now, the UN and The Mob wants the West to pay the G77 to increase emissions and pollution?

Heck. I'm confused. I thought the UN and The Mob were all emotional about the planet. Heck; they aren't. It's all about money. Good old UN.

If this Bali Conference has done anything, it has exposed the lies and hypocrisy of the UN and Its Mob. It's not about the climate. It's a money laundering scheme of the UN.

Strange that you took no issue with executives from EnCana Corporation, Iogen Corp, and PlascoEnergy Group--the last two are based in Ottawa--joining the official Canadian delegation. Were they traveling on the taxpayers' dime? Not so interested in answering that question, I imagine.

Strange that you took no issue with executives from EnCana Corporation, Iogen Corp, and PlascoEnergy Group--the last two are based in Ottawa--joining the official Canadian delegation. Were they traveling on the taxpayers' dime? Not so interested in answering that question, I imagine.

Personally I find it disturbing that ANYONE is paying attention to these enviro nhilists, but as long as we are I think the government can bring whoever it pleases. After all they (the government) were elected by a plurality of the Canadian population to represent us at home and abroad.

The fact that you don't like the approach of the government is tough cookies.

Ok, baby steps for Orton.

EnCana, Iogen and PascoEnergy did not travel half way across the planet to have a meeting with the Minister. They took part because what happened in Bali had a very real possibilty of affecting them directly. It is called good business sense.

Your last question is a good one. Did they go on their own or the taxpayer's dime. Let us know will you?

"The youth have also questioned why they were excluded from the official Canadian government delegation."

Could it be because the government was elected, and they were not?

Kate: All members of a "youth delegation" that flew to Bali to demand a meeting with John Baird to discuss their earth inheritance.

And they had actually managed to secure that meeting--except that Baird walked out early, before he was scheduled to speak and answered questions from the youth delegates. Ahh, accountable and accessible government, CPC-style!

Six of these motivated young "heroes" are from Guelph (about 6 hours from Ottawa by minivan)

The implication being that they could just as easily met with Baird back home.

Except that (a) that wasn't the only point of going to Bali, and (b) you are (again) mistaking reducing one's carbon output (including going carbon neutral where appropriate and as much as possible) with reducing one's carbon output to zero.

he secured contracts worth nearly $50,000 from Natural Resources Canada in 2007, for 15 weeks of work.

But those contracts were to conduct work for NRC. So the government--under CPC watch--paid a consultant to do some work for them. Big deal. If you're implying that the NRC contracts helped pay for the CYD's carbon neutral commitment, some actual evidence would be nice.

And are you saying that if a government office were ever to call you up and hired your commercial artist services, you'd turn them down on principle?

18 - 25 year olds are "youths"!! So when do these "youths" grow up? I am presuming this organization is somehow funded directly and/or indirectly via tax dollars -- what a bunch of pathetic parasites.

I'd be far more likely to agree that GW is a crisis when those who insist it is a crisis start acting like it's a crisis.

In the meantime, I remain appalled, but not surprised, by their hypocrisy.

one can only imagine their parents Christmas letter
Hello Muddah, hello faddah, here I am at ...[damn, no way to make this rhyme...]

been around the block: Show biz global warm-mongers: the shame of unearned income eh? Or maybe more accurately, income FELT to be unearned.

Jim: EnCana, Iogen and PascoEnergy did not travel half way across the planet to have a meeting with the Minister. They took part because what happened in Bali had a very real possibilty of affecting them directly. It is called good business sense.

First, they went not as representatives of the business/industry sector as a whole, but as representatives of their own private investors and shareholders. Remember: they didn't just decide to attend out of "good business sense." They were invited by the Goverment as part of the official delegation.

Which raises the question: Why these three? If this was about sector-wide representation, why not send an industry-wide association?

Second, environmental and youth groups have as legitimate a claim to be at the table as industry, since the outcomes of Bali will impact both their work and their lives. Why did they have to pay their own way, which denies them access to higher level meetings that the energy sector executives had access to?

Also, that David Noble received $50,000 from NRC seems to be a sticking point around here. Does it bother anyone that Iogen was received $7.7-million and Plasco $6.5-million from the federal government?

Or that Plasco's CEO is Rod Bryden, former owner of the Ottawa Senators of the National Hockey League. Think he might have some personal connections with Ottawa gatekeepers? Power begets power, I guess.

orton park - I haven't heard or read Kate as an activist for the AGW cause. Have you?

That's why it's hypocritical of these people to be activists for a cause, and yet, rather than going to Ottawa, a 'carbon-lite trip' to present a petition or meet with the Ministry, they chose to spend our tax dollars on a 'carbon-heavy trip'. what was the 'other point' of going to Bali? To protest? And we, the planet-users, must pay for their 'carbon-heavy trip' to do that?

This makes one suspect their agenda, when their actions contradict their rhetoric.

Zip: After all they (the government) were elected by a plurality of the Canadian population to represent us at home and abroad.

A plurality, indeed. Which means a diversity of opinions and viewpoints.

Three private businesses were part of the delegation. Three spots. Could have just as easily been one representative from the private sector, one from the environmental NGO sector, and one for the youth sector. That would have reflected the Canadian plurality, Zip. Three business executives and zero critical voices sounds more like partisanship to me.

ET said:
"Again, Kyotoism is a money laundering scam"

Yes, at one level of the transnational revenue feeding pool...however, at the upper levels of transnational globalism (centered in UN regulatory bodies)it represents a form of unheralded power monopolization.

One of the former IPCC scientists put it more succinctly by stating it is a power grab by globalists working through the UN to, essentially, tax/regulate/control one of the building blocks of life on this planet... CO2.

His contention was if you control CO2 production and use you control life itself and the implications of the politics and bureaucratic malfeasance inherent vulnerability for abuse in that premise was too great to concentrate so much power in a single globalist body of unelected/unaccountable men.

This was the reason he gave for his call to disband the UN-IPCC and abandon UN centered/dictated transnational sustainability politics fro nation-state working groups...he saw "Kyotoism" as the greatest loss of individual and national sovereignty ever undertaken in human history...I tend to agree.

Orton Park - I'm not the one preaching that the world is coming to an end because of the lifestyles of greedy western consumerism. Nor, do I believe, are Encana or any of the other business entities you name.

These sanctimonious little twits are, and they choose to do so by flying half way around the globe to a resort island and pushing themselves in front of any camera they can find.

That's the difference.

And you can stick your carbon neutrality where the sun don't shine. Such a thing doesn't exist. You either create excess CO2 or you don't. You don't get to pretend that paying indulgences to a scam enterprise absolves you of that pile of reeking climate change hypocrisy - not around here, anyway.

"The implication being that they could just as easily met with Baird back home."

Thats the entire point Sophist!

Fick, you Earth commies are slow witted

When they (Gore, Suzuki, etc) start walking, paddling, peddling and flapping to get from point A to point B, then I may start listening. When they start moving out of their "Big Footprint" mansions into Caves and Huts, then I may start listening. Until then, the hypocrites will continue to blow hot air and I will continue to not listen.
Daniel

Richard Ball: Could it be because the government was elected, and they were not?

Were the executives at Encana, Iogen, and PlascoEnergy also elected? They formed part of the official Canadian delegation, after all.

********

ET: what was the 'other point' of going to Bali? To protest?

Actually, yes. This is a global event with global impacts for everyone, including youth. They have as much democratic right to have their voice heard and attempt to shape the outputs/outcomes of the conference as anyone else.

If simply submitting a petition was their own objective, then yes, doing so in Ottawa would have made more sense than in Bali. But they had other objectives, including trying to shape the course of a global consensus that has broad and lasting implications. Insofar as this issue is global in scope, and insofar as addressing this issue (through negotiation or protest) requires face-to-face meetings/confrontations from people all over the world--which by definition necessitates travel to a specific geographic location--I, as a fellow "planet-user," entirely support their right to protest.

when their actions contradict their rhetoric.

Only if you think their rhetoric implied trying to reduce one's carbon output to zero. Which would be wrong.

I read all these doom and gloom forcasts of what is going to happen if we in the Canada dont lower our CO2 emmissions.I have read Kyoto and am following Bali and there is NO WHERE in either meeting where there is a reduction in CO2 emmissions for the planet,in fact CO2 emmissions will rise considerably under kyoto targets.If we follow kyoto,and believe all the hype about global warming and CO2 causing it, there will be HIGHER temps and MORE melting under kyoto than without it as the shift in production to the G77 countries to satisfy a growing world population will be in countries with NO CO2 controls.

Er, shouldn't some of the little darlins' be at home writing exams? 'Tis the season, after all.

"18 - 25 year olds are "youths"!! So when do these "youths" grow up?"

We keep youn adults pretty sheltered an irresponsible these days In my parents Generation people in this age group were parents with careers/business ventures.

Idle recusant academic culture has filled the voids of these idlers with emotional "activism"... and pop culture politics are mostly half baked childish reasoning/naivety which has made a generation of unfulfilled vacuous young adults with child-like notions and utopian idealism..."youths" is appropriate when we see childish actions and thinking.

`I just read on Canada.com that Canada and the USA
had caved in on the "Bali roadmap". I wonder what kind of warped thinking that reporter had. Even the BBC had a more accurate story.
Perhaps all these misguided young folks are doing the scribbling for the reporters???

WL Mackenzie Redux: Thats the entire point Sophist!

Read on, WLMR. Meeting with Baird wasn't the only point of the CYD going to Bali. If it were, then Kate's implication might have more merit. But it isn't, so hers doesn't.

The most knowledgeable person on the subject of 'climate change', from Guelph is Dr.Ross McItrick, Prof. of Economics, Guelph University. Those 'youth' from Guelph who attended Bali, should have instead attended some of the Professors lectures and learned from one of the worlds foremost experts, the folly of "climate change". They need not have travelled several thousand Km but instead a short walk down the street in Guelph. Ir was Prof. McKittrick, who as a "Peer Reviewer" of the IPCC, who examined in detail the temperature data used by IPCC and found that it was severely flawed, of course in favor of the alarmist IPCC. Some corrections were made but many errors still remain. This caused the Professor to leave the IPCC organization. Yesterday in the National Post, Pro. McKittrick join over a hundred imminent world scientists as a co-signatory to a letter to the Mr. Ban Ki- Moon, Secretary General of the United Nations, impressing upon him that the UN climate conference is taking the world in entirely the wrong direction, and that it is not possible to stop climate change. It is necessary reading for all who wish to understand more fully the folly of the IPCC's ridiculously flawed campaign to spend billions of dollars in a supposed scheme to stop climate change; when in fact the world's climate always has been changing and always will be changing and that the world community cannot halt the phenomena let alone cause a reversal. "We should give up futile attempts to combat climate change".

OK OK I'll switch lightbulbs and ride my bike to town a couple of times a month.

How long am I going to hear about global warming?
The rest of my life?

I can't even talk about this with people around me, they think I'm some sort of monster for even questioning it.

Anyone have advice? I find this all very disturbing.

Joe B. thanks for the links on Bob Carter.

Highly recommended!

Those little f@#$%ers can fly half way around the planet, so that they can whine like the good little leftards that they are, and yet their idiot parents give me dirty looks for using my snowblower? Or my craftsman lawnmower? Or my 16' ski-boat?

And, yes moonbat, it is all about leading by example. If I tell my kids not to drink, then open a quart and proceed to get drunk in front of them, I should not be to surprised if any one of them develop a drinking problem.

Same s@#$ for the idiots whom you adore. The day they walk their talk, is the day I MIGHT trade in my 2 stroke for a 4 stroke. MIGHT!

"Meeting with Baird wasn't the only point of the CYD going to Bali."

Seing how Kyoto scince has been thorougly debunked by legitimate scientific peer review ..and that CO2 hear mongering is now an obviously false/dihonest construct, there was no real reason for a Bali run IMHO. ( I bet this list was 10 times bigger untiol the Taxpayer funding fell through)

CO2-AGW catastrophe is a scientifically debunked theory.

So what was the purpose of the Bali schmooze 'n Tan?

Looking at the List provided I'd say its a practice run for easter break in Fla....the confront Baird BS was an excuse to make it fit the criteria for fed funding(until this dropped through)

A cluster of sactimonious little partisan University snits flapping their arms over a dead climate theory on tropical pacific beaches while Tax paying Canada struggles to pay the bills under an arctic deep freeze, just has a massive stench of hypocracy and irresponsible dalliance to it. IMHO

My cynicism seldom steers me wrong ;-)

Kate: I'm not the one preaching that the world is coming to an end because of the lifestyles of greedy western consumerism.

Again, start with a false premise (see also "'Carbon neutrality' means staying home"), and everything that follows is wrong.

Such a thing doesn't exist. You either create excess CO2 or you don't.

Actually, the thing that doesn't really exist is this false duality between "excess" and "essential/non-excess" CO2. The CO2 that you produce is the CO2 that you produce. You can't divide it into essential and excess portions. But you can reduce its impact by first reducing total output where you can, and then pay the true costs for the remaining output that arises from activities that you deem necessary and important.

You don't get to pretend that paying indulgences to a scam enterprise absolves you of that pile of reeking climate change hypocrisy - not around here, anyway.

The point of "carbon neutrality" for the consumer is to pay to a greater extent the full costs associated with one's actions, that is, converting what has traditionally been treated as externalities back into internalities. Neither you nor I have ever once paid in our entire lives the full price of gasoline. You are taking shots at people who are doing voluntarily that which should be mandatory.

kingstonlad: yet their idiot parents give me dirty looks for using my snowblower? Or my craftsman lawnmower? Or my 16' ski-boat?

Did you pay a few bucks extra to reflect the full costs of producing and using that snowblower or lawnmower or ski-boat? Because the CYD did for their flights, so if you didn't, the kids are still one-up on you.

"OK OK I'll switch lightbulbs and ride my bike to town a couple of times a month."

Not me! I don't intend to concede one single penny, habit, preference or action to fraudulent climate science or earth cult guilt politics.

Don't ever propose to force me to it either....I have a couple decades supply of canned whup-ass just waiting to be opened on control freak pinkies.

Bob (Bob at December 15, 2007 12:22 PM).
Simply tell them that (A) "climate change" is not a new phenomena like the "global warmingists" would like us to believe; that it has been occuring for a million years or more, always has, always will be, and yes the rate of change does vary, and that we are powerless to change this very natural occurence. (B)Guess what color the fiords of Greenland were during a previous intergalcial period, (like the one that we are now in)?. Yup, you are right, GREEN. And (C) Why was that island named Greenland as opposed to "Whiteland"? Because of course it's fiords
were green from the lush vegetation that was growing during that warm period, obviously warmer than it has been in the most recent cycle which may change any day,but unfortunately this cannot be forecasted with any precison. And was a good portion of the world flooded? Nope. Did much of the planets wildlife vannish? Nope.
All of our other weather forecasts are most unlikely to be inaccurate four days from now.
We dont know when the next cold weather cycle will occur similar to the one we had in the early seventies, but when it does happen, the IPCC and its millions of 'global warmingist' deciples, will drop out of sight for a while like those who were fear mongering just a few years ago about the doom and gloom that would occur if we did not become "Y2K compliant".

notice the contracts he got are just pennies shy of $25k.

In government work, that's how you help your friends because you don't have to compete the work . . just give the contracts to whomever.

Just do it over and over . . . . simple corruption, simply done.

so nice they are coming home to a blast of global warming . .

Ontario is expecting a major snowfall on S Elise Amendola)
Locations and amount of snowfall are predicted in a special advisory issued by Environment Canada.

Locations and amount of snowfall are predicted in a special advisory issued by Environment Canada.
Central Canada braces for 'massive' winter wallop

Updated Sat. Dec. 15 2007 12:04 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Central and Eastern Canada are bracing for a severe winter storm that Environment Canada warns could dump as much as 40 centimetres of snow in some parts of the country.

The major low pressure system is barreling toward Canada from Texas and will move into southwestern Ontario by Saturday afternoon -- bringing 20 to 30 centimetres of snow, strong winds and freezing rain with it, Environment Canada's website report

Orton,
I'll assume that you are a "skeptic" on just about everything stemming from Judeo-Christian western tradition....so why are you INCAPABLE of being a skeptic about AGW?

Explain that.

Bob: 12:22pm.

Global warming is one world government global socialism. It isn't about the environment.
It's politics.
Our wise elders used to say it's rude to discuss politics or religion.
Global warming is politics AND religion.
Do NOT discuss. If it comes up be silent til is passes.
As a friend says: you can't reason somebody out of a position he didn't reason himself into.

Orton Park,
Did you ever stop to ask where are the carbon credit monies going to and what happens with it?

How do you rationalize this:
Germany has spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying "carbon credits" from China. Of course it was done with the intention that China would use these funds to retrofit some of it's obsolete industry to reduce the GHGs emissions, such as their power generation plants which according to National Geographic, spew out such huge amounts of pollution and particulates, that they can be visually tracked all the way across the Pacific Ocean to North America. Guess what China did with the funds? -they did not retrofit their horrendously huge pollution emmiting old palnts, they built new plants. Sounds like a reasonable move, IF the new plants were going to replace some of the old big emitters. BUT it didn't work out that way. They bult new plants that use not new low emitting technology, they built lower cost plants that utilize obsolete, high emitting technolgy and they did not shut down any or the other old plants because they emit at about the same horrendous high rates. So, in reality, instead of lowereing world GHG emissions, the German carbon credit funds actually caused an increase in GHG emissions. What a scam, the Germans were had and the Greenies thnk that the Germans were helping to save the planet.

I noticed on the news the other night that notorious jewel thief Svend "The Pink Panther" Robinson was also in attendance at Bali. I'd be willing to bet he wasn't there on his own dime.

For all the stated importance, of this Bali Conference, why did the national networks not have the cameras rolling there, at *each session*, when the representatives of each country spoke?

What the public got here, in this country, were the interviews of those unelected grumblers, who had their own known agendas....people flitting about, bags of coal, people-circles on the beaches...pictures of meeting rooms and hallways.

It would have been helpful to hear the speeches from the reps from other countries to see, for ourselves, what the nuances were....what the terms were, how the movement to and fro went.

The media allowed us to see the entire speech, recently, by Musharaff when he was appealing for support for his position.

Remember the Lebanon erruption...were there cameras there following every sick passenger on ships?

We got minute by minute coverage of sifting baryard soil when a man was charged with murder.

We got the full coverage of a princess's wedding, or two, and the 24/7 coverage of her untimely death.

But when it came to something with their stated potential for destruction to us all, where were they?

Look at what the CBC, and CTV gave us....Mulroney-Schreiber....Cashore-Delacourt-Newman....Mansbridge at UBC with a panel flown to Vancouver, from Eastern Canada.

And if we find that there were restrictions to that coverage, from either the UN, or the media on this side of the waters, we should know why.

A start will be to contact Natural Resources Canada to see what the Canadian taxpayer got for that contract with Noble.

Looking outthe window right now.

That SWON snowstorm is starting.

I have to go turn UP my thermostat to make sure I don't freeze.

Tonight I'll turn on ALL my lights. There's something captivating about the twinkle of light off of falling snowflakes.

Seeing as I have to work in the morning using a diesel burning smoke belching truck. I think I'll IDLE IT ALL NIGHT to make sure it's running in the morning and the cab is toasty warm.

I mean, those pretentious little toads need their food, clothes, asswipe and iPods, right? Gotta do what I gotta do to make sure they have their luxuries...

What's a few bucks in diesel when I can tell the Gooficle and Fruitbat to KMA?

some questions . .

How man of these eco-jihadis are young Liberals or Dippers ??

Who funded their trip, organized it, made the travel arrangements etc

ht tp://www.avaaz. org/fossils/

i think the other side won this battle of dolts. good on ya for trying to shame em kate, but ur site just isnt as popular as theirs. prolly cos more candies agree with them than some nutter from sask.

Well,after seeing this list of names/hometowns,I for one(as a proud Manitoban)am ashamed that from this 'Dipper'province we could only muster up ONE lone rep. NOT !! Gee...I guess Manitoban's just don't care enough,or hopefully,it represents that we are a province of non-enviro-whacko's,and aren't buying into the scam.That makes me an even prouder Manitoban.

It has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the climate.

Which is why the Enviro. minister (Christine Stewart?) at the time said that Kyoto was the best chance to spread wealth and social justice around the world. Her first public words in Canada after the conference and not a syllable about the climate.

I'd say that Kyoto and the whole GW dog-and-pony show is a con job, but to run a con, don't you have to keep your goal a secret?

ortin, agw is not happening. ok. you are wrong. that makes all other discussion about global warming unnecessary. adapt to what ever climate changes nature may throw at us and stop being so stupid..

"Richard Ball: Could it be because the government was elected, and they were not?

Were the executives at Encana, Iogen, and PlascoEnergy also elected? They formed part of the official Canadian delegation, after all."

The point is it's the elected government's responsibility and decision, not theirs. I do not claim to have a "right" to be on the government delegation; nor should they -- especially if their intent is to oppose the government.

Cheers.

18 to 25 year olds eh! A bit of college, little or zero experience with the real world. Yep that's who I want to pay my money to! Demand your inheritance - NOW - and start by paying diety du jour, Al Gore and friends!

orton - you are 'speaking sophistry'. Meaningless words. Think about them.

1)You have no proof that CO2 affects the climate. A great many scientists dispute the Kyoto claim and state that the IPCC is misleading the world.

More researchers claim that the UN-IPCC is a money laundering scam. You have nothing to say about this - despite the clear statements by the G77 that they absolutely refuse to have anything to do with emissions or pollution control.

If you and the Youth Gang really were concerned, you'd be insisting that the G77 follow the same rules.

2) Don't get into this 'democratic right' to protest. Who is paying them for this? What good is it to flaunt yourself in front of the cameras? How about doing some real work on the topic? If these people were sincere, they'd begin the task at home. But Bali, when there's freezing weather at home, is nice. Especially when its taxpayer money.

3) You refer to the 'true costs' of 'remaining output'? What does this mean?

4) You also refer to costs of, eg, gasoline. Are you serious? No one individual pays 'full costs' of anything; that's impossible. Production of goods and services is a COMMUNAL action, and both costs and results operate within the group. Never the individual! what economics class did you miss?

5)'externalities back into internalities'. I think you've taken too many postmodernist courses. What does that mean?

6)Again - why haven't you commented on several FACTS? That AGW is not a scientifically valid theory, and, that the G77 countries all reject it. They refuse to have any controls on their industrial and other energy output. If the proponents of AGW were serious, they'd insist that the G77 follow controls.

It's a money scam. The fact is, that you are far, far behind in analysis of Kyotoism...

Kate,
I am grateful to have this refuge to come to so I can escape the MMGW hysteria permeating western society.

I find the constant doomsayer methodology of the MSM extremely depressing.Can any of my fellow bloggers here offer me any hope that the exposure of this faux impending disaster is gaining any traction among the populace?

What an utterly colossal waste of global time,money,energy and resources this is.One day,environmentalists will wake up and discover their antics have kept us from addressing the REAL problems we face in our environment.

Sigh.

with the comments about wealth distribution and comments from a liberal senator (a few years back)stating to the effect that gun control is the first step in our pacification it drives me up the wall that Stephen Harper is the one with the "hidden agenda". are people really that stupid or do they just really want to be socially engineered into whiny, politically correct (liberal of course) puppets?

Now people.Be nice talking about these little leeches.Do not forget that they will be the new "commisars" in the forth coming new "Utopina" world government.Just remember this as they drive by your hut in the morning in their "carbon neutral" truck(paid for with your crops)wondering why your fields aren't abloom.
Orton....give me just ONE example of how paying money to a ponzi scheme reduces something already PRODUCED? Are you telling me that paying for my loaf of bread means it no longer exists???

hey Ontario . . just saw they news.

Looks like a really big blast of Global Warming is coming your way today. Probably caused by the tsunami of CO2 released at the Great Bali Gabfest

Get out your shovels and enjoy a nice day at the beach.

Maybe you'll bump into Dr. Fruit Fly or Al Gore.

It does seem a bit strange that there were no people "youth's" from Yukon Territories, Northwest Territories or from Nanavut. They could not find any?. Since global warming will effect these places and people first you would have thought they would be included.

Worked in Arctic "Beaufort Sea" as an oil worker in early 80's and was told that they would not be able to produce off of a platform or man made island because of the risk of moving ice. Seen it lift tug boats out of water where they were high centered and had to stay there until current dispersed ice and then they could move. Seen ice pile up on Tarsuit Island up 70 feet and crush tanks and machinery. Nothing they could do about it.

I think when you have policies in place for every country to follow, "it might just work". Take the UN on their "Oil for Food" policy on Iraq. They were caught in a scandal and it was buried thru the court systems. The people who it was supposed to benefit never received such aid. I think that the UN is no different in its thinking of today as it was yesterday, "they are still trying to print money and have the ELITISTS control of power.

I do not know which system is going to benefit Canada but I do one thing if people are going to live in Canada, "with its diverse climate" YOU NEED HEAT, POWER, WATER and TRANSPORTATION and a JOB. If you do not have these things you are living on the STREET or living in DADDIES and MOMMIES BASEMENT, who is supplying these things for you and praying like hell you will find a job and move out and then you can say you will inherit the earth.

When the people who are behind the World Warming Syndrome live like ordinary common folks who are worried about just getting bye in everyday living, "and I am not talking about flying to so called conferences, staying in plush hotels and attending every party available with of course the best of wine and dine. I would be very happy to listen to them. Until then "STICK YOUR BALI CONFERANCE WHERE THE SUN DOSEN"T SHINE. Merle Underwood.

Orton Park... "Second, environmental and youth groups have as legitimate a claim to be at the table as industry, since the outcomes of Bali will impact both their work and their lives. Why did they have to pay their own way, which denies them access to higher level meetings that the energy sector executives had access to?"

That logic suggests that every person who's lively hoods that currently count on the oil/gas sector, should have had their way payed to Bali. I did not get invited... why not? I really could use a Bali vacation, paid for by anyone but me.

The so called undeveloped countries... We will continue to add to this problem, the rest of you are not allowed. Unless of course, you pay us...

The so called environmentalists... we will continue to add to this problem by our actions to "save the planet", the rest of you heathens are not allowed. Unless of course, you pay us...

"This is a global event with global impacts for everyone" (Orton Park, 12:14PM)

No it isn't. "Man-made Global Warming", "Man-made Climate Change"... the bloody things don't exist! You've been sold a bill of goods, why can't you understand that?

I repeat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOLkze-9GcI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN06JSi-SW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCXDISLXTaY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQQGFZHSno

Nobody --NOBODY-- could watch this lecture, by an EXPERT on the subject who is far, far more able to make sense of global climate than ANYBODY I've yet read or heard who actually believes the human-induced Climate Change hooey, and not come away a Climate Change skeptic (note the capital letters).

The social engineers, on the other hand, don't really give a damn about the "Climate" part of "Climate Change". That's patently obvious.

if you need somthing to be afraid of, how about the mercury in those compact flourecents.

scares the sh## out of me.

Bios of all delegates and a list of financial supporters (oops missing):
http://www.cydbali.org/

They also blogged for the Toronto Star
Blog: The view from Bali
http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/Environment/article/282004

ET:
One quibble on your terminology. I would replace your frequently used "money laundering" phrase with something like global income re-distribution.
Money laundering is an attempt to cleanse dirty money by running it though legitimate enterprise; this AGW racket is the opposite: dumping clean money into the sewer of one-world global governance [the criminal UN] and corporate/NGO rent seeking.

Your right. The enviro-left is almost as hypocritical as conservative-voting right-whingers belly aching about high taxes and nanny state socialism while supporting subsidies for free-loading farmers. Not a square inch of moral high ground from the sda quarter.

Those kids are environmentalist zombies.
They have no idea what life will be like if the climate changers succeed in destroying the West.

Teddy,
Don't worry, the sky is not falling! Climate change has been a fact for millenia and will continue to be for ages to come. The earth has warmed and cooled countless times before. This is not about science, although many scientists are building careers and reputations on AGW. This is about greed, pure and simple. There are billions of dollars ready to trade hands. There is scimming and scamming to be done, commissions to be earned, contracts to be won etc. This is about a sociaist world government in waiting trying to flex its muscles through fear and smear... sound familiar Saskatchewan?
Daniel

They are not being hypocrites. If you read their little press release,Ms Rose from Saskatoon states that they are ihheriting the earth that they have done nothing to denigrate,so they are off to Bali to change that.See,thier flights and most likely copious consumptiomn will contribute to the denigration of the planet,no hypocrisy there. Though it could be just bad writing from a journalist student who spends his time writing nifty protest signs and dreaming up cutting edge chants,such as 1,2,3,4,what do we want,free trips,when do we want them ,now. And it is quite possible the writer Adam MacIsaac is related to Ashley MacIsaac,which would explain a lot.

agree, me no dhimmi. My term is wrong. But come up with a different term - the 'global income redistribution' doesn't evaluate that redistribution.

I'm trying to say, as you point out, that there is an extremely unfair action going on. That is, those who have worked very hard, with their muscles and their intellect, with their private enterprise and their taxes, over many many generations of toil, to generate modern industrial technology and benefits - are being chastized by those who haven't done a stick of work, body or mind - and are being told by these Do Nothings - to hand over the benefits from all that hard work.

Why? Why should we? We and our ancestors worked very hard to innovate, experiment, develop new technologies, figure out what works and doesn't work. It took a lot of our money, a lot of our toil, a lot of our failures. And those peoples who did nothing, now want all that technology, all those inventions, all the results of that work - for nothing.

Why? What do we owe them? We are being chastized for our hard work!

well manny, this is what separates the conservative from the libertarian who is against all subsidies including for farmers.

HOWEVER, it would be impossible today to win an election by promising to end the farm subsidies. All parties argue for their continuance because "they're all doing it". You can try to chip away at them over time though. Your ideological friends -- the Europeans -- are the worst offenders! And let's remember that a lot of the putative health regulations are really just disguised trade barriers.

One, Two, Three ... 'Don't Worry Be Happy'.

ONE
Is unusual, long-term GW happening ? Small Chance.

TWO
If, IF it is, is man causing it ? Small, small chance.

THREE
If, IF it is happening AND if, IF man is causing it ... would it be all that bad ?

Not for Canada --- the 'Land Of Ice And Snow'.

The world must sometimes think Canadians are the laughing-stock of the world.

Thank-you Warren Kinsella for being such a "good" right hand man.

"What an utterly colossal waste of global time,money,energy and resources this is.One day,environmentalists will wake up and discover their antics have kept us from addressing the REAL problems we face in our environment."
(teddy, 1:46PM)

The problem as I see it, teddy, is that when we arrive at that point of having to address "REAL problems", there's a very great chance that nobody will believe it; all the environmentalists' capital will have been squandered on "Global Warming/Climate Change".

You know, the one group of people for whom I have zero respect are the Hollywood holier-than-thou self-important moralists (with a few notable exceptions, of course... Tom Selleck, Arsenio Hall, James Woods, Bo Derek, Gary Sinise, Ben Stein, Harry Connick, ...). It's things like their backing for THIS issue amongst others --you know, Oscars for demonstrably crappy films like "An Inconvenient Truth" and "Hearts And Minds"-- that have given me to understand that there isn't anything at all THAT high-flown crowd of self-congratulatory egocentrics believe that's worth even the sweat of my, ahhh, brow. They've blown ALL their capital. Haven't they?

ET has framed the issue pretty much perfectly, as usual.

Wow, thirty-two Gore Bimbos, Suzkooky Kooks, Dion Dreamers, you name them.
They can't be serious about the environment when they fly to the South Pacific to talk to a person they can meet right here in FREEZING COLD AND SNOWY Canada.

It's all about publicity and politics,the in thing in the land of the Leftoid Cloud Dwellers. It's their current craze on their way to the Cool Aid stand or Lemming Bluffs where they can follow each other over the edge.
They can all fuddle duddle.

The phrase I would use, ET, is ponzi protection racket.

ET: You're right, "global income re-distribution" isn't right either -- doesn't capture the immorality of it. The theft, the looting.

BTW, been meaning to ask you: have you read Atlas Shrugged? I'm on my first read; had read The Fountainhead way back in the 70s but somehow didn't get around to this til now. You can well imagine the mind-bending experience I'm having reading this in the morning and Hayek's "Constitution of Liberty" in the evening AND witnessing this wholesale fraud in between!

I'll work on it :). Looting should perhaps be in the phrase somewhere!

Indeed Joe B, ET does nail this topic -- an extremely impressive feat when you factor in the contemporary university milieu she works in (in case you didn't know).

Watch the next conference will be held in Nunavut,

and suddenly everyone will be suggesting meetings be held via world wide teleconferences,

while singing themselves sanctimonious praises for acting in such a responsible manner.

Except, Vitruvius, Ponzi Scheme is not that familiar a term today.

Kate?

Global Swarming?

Later this evening,my wife and I are attending a Christmas meal at my mother's. Now she lives 20 miles from us.I drive a car (1997) that gets 31 mpg. These are my questions:
1.How many carbon credits need I purchase and need I only buy half being 2 persons in 1 vehicle?
2.Where in Sask.,cause I like to buy locally,do I purchase said credits?
3.What is the cost of each credit?
4.How do I tell my 87 yr. old mother that these get-togethers must stop in order to prevent this global warming?
I really need answers fast as we leave within the hour.Or have I left it too long and now must cancel?

Bali deal reached. UN's Bali Chief starts to cry (literally) escorted from conference, because China wouldn't play:

"China angrily accused the U.N. of pressuring nations to sign off on the text even as sideline negotiations continued. That prompted an emotional spat that ended when tearful and exhausted U.N. climate chief Yvo de Boer was escorted out of the hall."

Here:

http://tinyurl.com/2s4rzu

Climate cheques?

:The point of "carbon neutrality" for the consumer is to pay to a greater extent the full costs associated with one's actions:

That's not "carbon neutrality" that's marxist economics and it defies the laissez faire demand economics of consumer run capitalism....it attaches a guilt/sin tax to consumerism which has no moral or scientific basis.

I don't think I have to tell you what to do with marxist command economics or statist price fixing.

A) this guilt tax comes from a statist collectivist orthodoxy that holds there is something wrong with consuming resources...or that it is a sin to consume more resources that one has been alloted by some all knowing corporeal bureaucratic deity.

B) This Orthodoxy assumes that resources are a collective holding rather than free to be exploited by those who take the risk and capital to extract and refine these resources into a salable commodity to market to a demand base who will reimburse the exploiter for his risk plus a profit motive to continue.

Now entering into this are the interloping regulatory self-professed moral authorities and guardians of the earth mother who attach the costs of guilt&sin to the whole process...they are essentially skimming the supply and demand curves for revenues which they claim will go to fix the "damage" consuming creates....they have no practical technical means to do this... nor is their theory about the "damage" or the ability to "fix it" based in any sound science or demonstrable proof.

Essentially a large wad of revenue is being diverted from the legitimate supply and consumption chain to a shadowy group of "fixers" who can provide us with no concrete benefits nor demonstrable side benefits and essentially no documental success accountability.

I refuse to pay 1 penny in such taxing and whoever tries to shake me down for such mob-like extortion will be endangering themselves.

PS: Shame on Steven Harper and John Baird for even paying lip service to such Kyoto-esque inanity...give your heads a shake and stop playing with loonies...it gives their moonbat blathering credibly where none is warranted.

Did you pay a few bucks extra to reflect the full costs of producing and using that snowblower or lawnmower or ski-boat? Because the CYD did for their flights, so if you didn't, the kids are still one-up on you.
Posted by: Orton Park at December 15, 2007 12:42 PM

No, the CYD didn't actually "neutralize" the CO2 produced by their selfish journey. They simply bought carbon credits from a scammer who will probably use the money to buy himself a ski boat. Or an Escalade with spinner hubcaps.

Mark Steyn had some interesting facts in his column today:

The American Thinker's Web site ran the numbers. In the seven years between the signing of Kyoto in 1997 and 2004, here's what happened:

•Emissions worldwide increased 18.0 percent;

•Emissions from countries that signed the treaty increased 21.1 percent;

•Emissions from nonsigners increased 10.0 percent; and

•Emissions from the United States increased 6.6 percent.

http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/child-birth-homeless-1942317-year-percent

The new Website..

www.carboncatalog.org/blog/

** Some believe it is also a good way to make a fortune. By 2010, the emissions trading market is estimated to skyrocket up to $100 billion; the dominant players today being two Western bodies – the Chicago Climate Exchange and the European Climate Exchange. Hong Kong could be next, if analysts’ forecasts are correct.**
============
Hope this is not * Oil for Food II * = TG

I vote for condoms to be given a carbon credit.
They prevent child birth and population explosion thus saving the planet.
Viagra will need to pay up,perhaps an exchange between the two.

ET,
did you say . . .?

* * It's a money scam. The fact is, that you are far, far behind in analysis of Kyotoism...
Posted by: ET at December 15, 2007 1:46 PM **

= TG

ooops! Car won't start.Didn't plug in,saving the world from warming,you know.Now I will take my truck,it only gets 20 mpg. What am I to do?

Well, I'm staying with ponzi. Anyway, as of the last mail I received from StratFor, I think we can safely say that the Bali talks basically collapsed (pending Monday's summary report). They agreed to keep talking. Of course, that's what they're paid to do -- did you expect them to resign ;-?

Students of Yes Prime Minister surely know that any conference which produces nothing more than an agreement to have another conference is (1) a failure, from Hacker's perspective, and (2) a success, from Humphrey's perspective.

Still, the question remains, why did the talks collapse? My working conjecture is that the mandarins working behind the scenes know danm well the prospectus is not tractable, and the rest of this three-ring circus is all just a convenient distraction for the masses, employer for the trough-feeders, and cover for the oligarchs and putocrats.

China and the developing countries said, nope, we can't do that.
Australia, Canada, Japan, and the U.S. said, nope, we can't do that.

And so they didn't.

In other words, the Bali conference was a success.

I have all you over users beat!

Came back in from shoveling out the driveway (4th time this week) in a minus 20 windchill and left the front door ajar in the mad rush to get out of all that warming.

Wondered why the furnace kept coming on ;)

Patrick Moore, co-founder of Greenpeace, whom left Greenpeace has said that the Environmental movement has been adopted by those that favor communism after the fall of communism. The whole AGW thing was a manufactured hysteria so that they can instill a sense of guilt upon the people of the world. The eventual goal is the re-distribution of the world wealth communism style.

Why would people like the Goracle be in it? Well when you’re selling Carbon Credit dispensations it only makes sense to get people to believe the world is in trouble. Guilt = Money to Gore.

Kyoto is really envirocommies coming after our wealth.

Moron Park @12:37: "You are taking shots at people who are doing voluntarily that which should be mandatory." ("that which": how classy!)

Surely this person jests.

Those doing "that which" is voluntary are rich bastards whose carbon footprints tsunami the rest of ours. BTW, these con artists also own companies that sell carbon credits.

What part of "hypocrites, opportunists, and conflict of interest" does Moron Park not understand? (These people make Brian Mulroney look like Mother Teresa.)

I, for one, as well as many other SDA regulars, do not intend to submit to the arbitrary measures of the global warming apparatchiks. Although "useful idiots", like Moron Park, may be willing to pay for the third yacht of these scam artists--hey, it's a free country (for now)--count me out.

vitruvius - nice summary. And, of course, in true Humphrey style, the reality is being semantically painted in a way that it reflects whatever you think. All it is, is a 'resolution' to talk some more.

I see your point about it being a Ponzi scheme (had to look up the term).

I simply don't get what is going on in the 'minds' of the activists. When they are told that the G77 countries refuse to consider any constraints on emissions or pollution; that all that they want is money from the G8 countries to industrialize ...doesn't this jerk a slight bell in the minds of these people? Just a slight nod?

Doesn't it mean that emissions/pollution will, globally, go UP, UP, UP? (Thanks for Steyn's data, penny).
So, how does that achieve the Activists' Agenda, which rests on a firm belief in AGW?

And why should the West, which worked and failed and worked for 200 years to develop the technologies of industrialism, why should it simply hand over this knowledge to those who have not worked? I can understand 'noblesse oblige' and the 'greater good' and so on.

But, this whole thing is supposed to be, according to everything said by the activists in the UN, IPCC, Activist Hordes, the Liberals, Stephane Dion, Jack Layton..this whole thing is supposed to be about 'global warming' caused by emissions.

But, paying the G77 to industrialize without constraints, has ZILCH to do with reducing emissions. They'll increase. Exponentially.

Will the West then be blamed for paying the G77 to emit and pollute? Is that it?

I wish some activist would explain it to me.

me no dhimmi - no, I've actually never read any of Ayn Rand's books; I've certainly read Hayek with admiration. Might I also recommend Karl Popper and his The Open Society at some time.

"Strange that you took no issue with executives from EnCana Corporation, Iogen Corp, and PlascoEnergy Group--the last two are based in Ottawa--joining the official Canadian delegation. Were they traveling on the taxpayers' dime? Not so interested in answering that question, I imagine."

The fact that these so called "youths" chose to become eco-tourists (and yes they are only carbon neutral if they stayed home - carbon indulgences don't cover it) has been well covered here.

An interesting point that Orton Park chooses not to answer is why the specific companies he names are going to Bali. It is to protect their business interests, but not in the way you think. Their interest is in promoting more goverment regulation (including Carbon Taxes) not less.

Iogen is promoting Celulostic Ethanol (using non food biomass to create Ethanol). Their interest is in additional government regulation mandating Ethanol, which would drive up demand and Ethanol prices. They benefit as their process is more expensive than current food to fuel Ethanol technology.

Iogen's partners include Royal Dutch Shell, Petro Canada AND the Goverment of Canda.

http://www.iogen.ca/partners/overview/index.html

PlascoEnergy's interest is in licensing / operating their waste reduction to synthetic gas technology. As a "renewable energy" play, they are seeking long-term subsidized electricity pricing (higher rates than standard generation technologies - like coal, nuclear or hydro get).

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/city/story.html?k=87349&id=9a551407-3a25-4874-aeb8-885e3b80aef6

http://www.plascoenergygroup.com/?The_PlascoEnergy_Advantage

Encana has interests not only for it's natural gas and Oil Sands business, but also in it's Carbon Sequestration business. A government mandated Co2 requirement will become a new profit center as they can sell sequestration services.

http://www.encana.com/responsibility/reporting/operatingresponsibly/climate/co2/index.htm

Another business consortium working the same thing.
http://www.ico2n.com/thevision.php

I'll just state two more things here.

1) I am an AGW skeptic. The belief that that Co2 is the primary driver of climate, or man as the primary generator of Co2, or that we can control climate (via controlling Co2) are all fallacies. The science does not support any of them.

2) I write none of the above to imply any consipracy or bad faith for any of these businesses. They are just persuing the best interests of their investors (as anyone of us would expect them to). I don't like rent seeking behaviour, but I don't blame these companies for trying to profit from dumb government regulation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

Overall, I'd expect that within the next 10 years the reality of normal climate variation will make all of today's irrational fear of Anthropogenic Global Warming look utterly ridiculous.

MND, no, I simply couldn't know ET worked in academe; she's pretty darn smart (I'll leave it there). I never neglect to read her comments when I'm logged on to SDA and she's pitching 'em. Well written, well thought out.

WLMR (3:30PM).
Yes.

Regarding this bit, "PS: Shame on Steven Harper and John Baird for even paying lip service to such Kyoto-esque inanity...give your heads a shake and stop playing with loonies...it gives their moonbat blathering credibly where none is warranted", the unfortunate part is that a majority of Canadians actually buy into the AGW crapola. I honestly think that education might be the key here. I figure ET's intelligence can't assuage the years of wrong-headed dogma sopped up by her campus confreres, but, if public schools were instructed to leave the politics outside of the education system (just a curriculum based on reading, writing, math, chemistry, physics, biology, music, art, NO "field trips" to see public speakers like Gore,...), the next generation might not so easily vote for the type of politicians that Stephen Harper is forced to play footsie with, just to keep them out of office (read, buy time until a less destructive "fashion" comes down the pike).

MSM gets it wrong again
Manic Misinterpretations of Climate Change Capitulation by US in Bali
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/12/15/manic-misinterpretations-us-capitulation-climate-change-bali

Exactly !!

The FIVE PILLARS that brought us to this point;

United Nations
Media
Universities
Hollywood
Public scool system

ET: Check out Atlas Shrugged while ignoring negative opinions you may have encountered on her formal philosophy of Objectivism.
Damn, I keep meaning to get Popper while on amazon.ca. Will get The Open Society. I may have "issues" having heard that the evil genius George Soros was a protege.

A friend keeps mentioning Eric Hoffer, the Longshoreman philosopher who evidently talks a lot about the "scribes". Encountered him?

Vitruvius: Yes Minister. Best possible poli sci course imaginable. In fact, they could replace all university Political "Science" departments with a loop of this series, save a ton of money, and give the students a real education. That's my take too, and the reason I don't get too jumped up about global warming: the knowledge that this is really just a talking shop and that in the final analysis no politician is going to wreck the economy acting on it. As Clinton said, "It's the economy, stupid".

ET: 1)You have no proof that CO2 affects the climate.

You say this as though you've cited proof, either here or in the past, that CO2 doesn't affect the climate. So let's here it, ET--your proof that CO2 doesn't affect the climate. And please don't just name-drop a few scientists or cite a couple of studies that, let's be honest, you haven't even read. They may offer contradictory information or dissenting opinion, but they on their own aren't sufficient. I want to hear your incontrovertible proof.

More researchers claim that the UN-IPCC is a money laundering scam.

Money laundering scam? That's rather an overstatement. There are surely researchers who dispute the IPCC's conclusions, but money laundering is a bit of a stretch. Oh, and since you are asserting a crime here, you'll need to come up with some proof.

You have nothing to say about this - despite the clear statements by the G77 that they absolutely refuse to have anything to do with emissions or pollution control.

That's not actually what they said. Their actual statements are a fair bit more complex than "absolute refusal." These are nation-states, not four-year olds.

If you and the Youth Gang really were concerned, you'd be insisting that the G77 follow the same rules.

I'm not sure what the CYD's position is, but being the Canadian Youth Delegation, I imagine they're more concerned about Canada's commitments. But you'll have to ask them.

As for me, my position is that developed nations got rich by polluting, and it'd be rather hypocritical now to tell developing countries hoping to industrialize that they have to play by new rules. Having said that, it's because of genuine concern about the environment that I'd insist that Canada continue to pressure laggard nations to adopt targets even as they themselves start taking action now to reduce emissions.

Arguing that nobody should do anything until everybody is on board is a recipe for guaranteed inaction.

2) Don't get into this 'democratic right' to protest.

I like how you start by asking, "Who is paying them for this?" and then proceeding almost immediately to answering your own question: "Especially when its taxpayer money."

All without a single iota of evidence or proof that CYD expenses were paid for through taxpayer money.

4) You also refer to costs of, eg, gasoline. Are you serious? No one individual pays 'full costs' of anything; that's impossible.

Which is why I said, "pay to a greater extent the full costs associated with one's actions."

Production of goods and services is a COMMUNAL action, and both costs and results operate within the group. Never the individual!

Except that some of the costs that should be incurred by the enterprising producer and spread out among consumers are currently not being incurred, because they are being treated as externalities. These are effectively subsidies for the entire production-consumption chain, and they distort prices downward for everyone.

Right now, there are some individuals who are voluntarily choosing to "internalize" these externalities through carbon neutralization. It's not an ideal system for many reasons. One is that it's voluntary, so only some individuals within the group are bearing the costs. Which is why it should be mandatory, so that the costs are spread communally across the entire group.

what economics class did you miss?

A rather hollow insult coming from someone who also asks, "You refer to the 'true costs' of 'remaining output'? What does this mean?" and "'externalities back into internalities'...What does that mean?"

To start, try a wikipedia search for "externalities."

6)Again - why haven't you commented on several FACTS? That AGW is not a scientifically valid theory, and, that the G77 countries all reject it.

Since when was it a fact that AGW is not a scientifically valid theory? Where is your proof of this?

We've had this conversation before. You say there's no scientific validity to the theory. I point out that every major scientific society in the developed world, plus a great number of national scientific professional associations in Canada, the US, the UK, Australia, and elsewhere, have issued a statement of some kind endorsing the view that human activity does in fact have an impact on climate change--which is the nutshell of the AGW thesis.

And then you come back by pointing out that the majority is not always right (true enough, but just saying that doesn't prove that the majority is wrong on this matter), and that some smaller percentage of scientists disagree, as if the mere existence of dissenting opinion alone is proof that the original theory has been debunked. Such a position is self-evidently and flat-out wrong, but I'll never convince you of that.

And where is your proof that the G77 countries reject AGW? They are resisting hard emissions targets--that is a fact--but it's not a fact that all 77 countries also reject the underlying scientific theories. But by all means, ET, correct me wrong: cite some proof, why don't you?

gordinkneehill: No, the CYD didn't actually "neutralize" the CO2 produced by their selfish journey. They simply bought carbon credits from a scammer who will probably use the money to buy himself a ski boat. Or an Escalade with spinner hubcaps.

Proof, please! ET is insisting that every statement on this thread be backed up with evidence, so please prove that the CYD's carbon credit money actually went to buying luxury goods.

*****

lookout: Those doing "that which" is voluntary are rich bastards whose carbon footprints tsunami the rest of ours. BTW, these con artists also own companies that sell carbon credits.

Proof, please! ET is insisting that every statement on this thread be backed up with evidence, so please prove that the CYD delegates (which is whom I was referring to) are "rich bastards." Also, please prove that they and others who contribute to carbon off-set programs all own the carbon credit companies themselves.

Good link alan.

How can virtualy ALL the media be so 'out to lunch' --- exactly the same stupid ?

I believe, because they are directed, ruled by media central --- Reuters and AP. They set the agenda. (On most major stories)

Media control through fear-mongering -- keeps the readers attention, sells papers. (Non better than end-of-the-world)

Most media, large and small, will fall into line. (Do not have to work for stories, just wait for the feed)

Help political parties impliment a Nanny-State. (Nanny states are more "adaptive" to media control. (Pravda)

Help countries impliment 'One World Governance' (Kyoto is the altar in Nanny Statism, Jacques Chirac even said so)

Even if a cause is looney (as former enviro min, Chistine Stewart admited) it will be believed if media speaks with one voice. (see above)

My, but doesn't Orton Park sound like Hana...and A...and A'dam...and so many others. Is there a connection?

To those preaching carbon credits,consider this....

My doctor tells me I must lose weight or I could be facing a life-altering physical catastrophe.That I am in fact part of a worldwide obesity problem.
I told him sure,I understand the seriousness,but I just can't live on the calories he reccommends.
My doctor then suggested that I could continue to eat well if I paid calorie credits so they could research obesity and test diets in other parts of the world.

I've had to make the switch to lite beer,but other than that I consume about the same calories daily.
Thanks to calorie credits,I now enjoy my cheesecake guilt free!

One more thing...

Gore flying around the world preaching that others need to reduce their carbon footprint is no different than an chronic alcoholic driving around drunk to AA meetings and demanding everyone there get sober.

How the MSM can shill for this asshole without gagging on the bile is beyond me.

It turns out, ET & MND, that the first episode of Yes Minister, Open Government, is currently available on the web. While many important lessons unfolded during the course of the series, the first episode is not without its deep insight. In part 3 below, for example, Sir Arnold (then Cabinet Secretary) notes that: The less you intend to do about something, the more you need to keep talking about it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBDNlAuMVBU - Part 1
www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9qt-_-glpY - Part 2
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwCzEd4z7EM - Part 3
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhpT7CIotKY - Part 4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_CxUKSNrug - Part 5

CTV interviewed some of these young 'experts' a while back. They probably earned the privilege to travel with merit points based on the number of times they bashed Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
Yes.They were prepubescentt when Kyoto was signed, so all they know is that it's 'Harper's fault'.

For those of you who may be interested in a shorter version of the relevance of Y[P]M to the Bali situation, I offer this excerpt:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZUOkGxGUVs

In which the following dialogue occurs:

"Humphrey: We had to break the whole thing up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside, we can make a complete pigs breakfast out of the whole thing.

"Humphrey: It's just like the United Nations, in fact, the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up. The more futile and impotent it becomes.

"Hacker: What appalling cynicism.

"Humphrey: Yes, we call it diplomacy."

This brings me back to the matter of the Bali conference. Some have suggested that people like Prime Minister Harper and Environment Minister Baird should not have gone to Bali. The point is, we had to get inside to break the whole thing up.

Some people don't like that this is how our species works.

Sorry, nothing I can do about that. Besides, it works quite well.

Vitruvius, may I say again that you are quite a pleasant, interesting and insightful fellow! Well said. Pip, pip and all that rot, eh?

orton
1) with regard to 'that CO2 doesn't affect the climate' - you ask me to prove it. You ought to know that logically and empircally, it is impossible to prove a negative. Next?

2)Money laundering scam - yes, I think vitruvius' term of 'Ponzi protection racket' is more accurate. Why is it a protection racket? Because it has nothing to do with the climate or environment; it's simply a tactic to transfer huge sums of money from the industrial nations to the 'developing nations' so that these countries can industrialize. But - these G77 nations have no intention of submitting to any CO2 or pollution controls. So, it's not about the climate; it's about getting money from somewhere to industrialize.

3)Again, the G77 refuse emission and pollution controls. You refuse to acknowledge this and instead, declare that 'it's more complex'. So, state the complexity.

4) You are slithering. No, developed nations did not get rich by pollution. That's a red herring. Do you know how they got rich? They got rich by hard, hard work, over 250 years. Years of working to develop engineering technologies, to figure out theories of physics, thermodynamics, theory of light, heat, magnetism, theories of energy and the development of energy technologies (moving from wind power to steam. Theories of chemistry and applications of chemistry in metal, plastics, biochemistry. Figuring out how to build airplanes, cars, computers, telephones. Medical innovations, germ theory of disease, theories of animal and plant breeding, increasing the supply of food production..and so on.

That took a lot of hard work, a lot of failures and courage. Yet you, who benefit from all this work, spit on it and talk only about 'they got rich by pollution'.

And you assert that, without any acknowledgment of these 250 years of tremendous work, courage and innovation - the 'developing nations' should receive the benefits of this work. They should receive the cars, planes, medical wisdom - and all the money from the West - and be permitted to pollute. Just because they didn't do what the West did.
Where is your concern for the climate? Heh. It doesn't exist. Your only interest is that the West pay the G77 to industrialize. You don't care that they, since you believe in AGW, harm the climate. Hypocrite.

5) No, your statement about 'nobody should do anything..until everyone is on board' isn't a valid defense. Why not? Because your proposal is INCREASING emissions and pollution. You are supporting no controls for the G77. That means that MORE CO2 will be added to the air. Since you support AGW, then, this is a strange thing for you to support.

6) Democratic right to protest has nothing to do with who is paying for the trip. My point remains; their travel has nothing to do with 'democratic right to protest'. It has to do with the cost (both in emissions and taxes).

7) How does one pay to a greater extent the full costs associated with one's actions? This is ambiguous and general.

8) Please tell me what costs, incurred by the producer, are not being incurred. Again, ambiguous and general.

9)What is 'carbon neutralized'? How, outside of the lab, does one do this?

10) No - I'm not doing the google search; you explain 'internalities and externalities, as YOU use them.

11) AGW is not scientifically proven and there are enough scientists and groups, already given before on this blog, that refute AGW. No, the science is NOT closed, and No, there is NO consensus, and No, there is a great deal of evidence against it. This blog has had numerous discussions, with names, on this issue.

Try again.

When it comes to the Earth's greenhouse effect:

"Man-made CO2 is equivalent to linoleum on the first floor of 100 story building"

Would Orton be comfortable calling his scientist, Albert Gore, as a 'technical' witness ?

After all, Big Al is probably the biggest (pun) reason for the scam getting this far. (and Hollywood)

Orton

you keep blathering like an idiot about these youth's right to go to Bali.

that right stopped rite at my tax pocket, when I, and my familly have to wait in line for proper health care cuz there ain't enough "money", then there ain't enough tax dollars to send 32 useless foolish children half way around the world on my tax dollar, to go to a useless haydown of money grabbin thieves to do nothing but be fools

when I was 22 I had a familly of 3 children, a mortgage, and a job, about time some one sent these children out to do sum work!!!!

O. Park--he sounds like a friend of Mo--wants proof. OP, have you heard of Al Gore, David Suzuki, and Maurice Strong?

Their carbon footprints are HUMUNGOUS and they are reaping huge benefits from yelling, "The sky is falling!" They live the high life, can easily afford to pay "carbon credits"--no sacrifice for them--for their excessive lifestyles, and even benefit from them as they have financial interests in the companies that sell the credits. Most of the rest of us minions, with very modest carbon footprints, will be left out in the cold.

OP, check out these privileged opportunists, who, like Marie Antoinette, have no sense of noblesse oblige. "Let them pay carbon credits" might well be their motto.

Meanwhile, OP, the problems these con artists say will doom us continue apace, while their "solutions" are useless. These dangerous opportunists are, at the least, stuck on stupid and, if you're gullible enough to be sucked in by their fairy tales, so, I believe, are you.

Remember the gingerbread man, who climbed on the fox's back to cross the river. That gullible little cookie thought he was safe . . . as safe as we mere, not affluent, First World mortals are in the hands of the global warming beasts of prey, like Gore, Suzuki, and Strong.

Smarten up, OP! (If you can.)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VuUc5UVm3cg

this will upset several sides.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9FFdZBahxWo&feature=related

help a stuggling Chinese by a mercedes and please those europeans who know so darn much.

A-hole post; comments down ?

This whole carbon credit scheme is nothing more than a modern day version of indulgences. Orton, I can't prove that indulgences didn't work, as we have no witnesses to prove or disprove the theory, at least none that immediately come to mind. Just let me say I'm pretty skeptical about both of these schemes.

Fortunately, I've nothing to feel guilty about so while I'm happy to see you and your fellow penitents throwing money at the problem, don't mind me if I just take a pass on the whole project.

I figure if worse comes to worse, and you actually manage to convince Canadian PTB's that we actually should transfer our wealth and technology to developing nations, while paying for the privilege of doing so, I'll just move to India or China where I can reap all the benefits of your battles.

Gosh, I hope people with really big bucks don't think of doing this first.

I'm thinking the fishing story was bait of a sort.
If not I deserve a 'Kate slapdown'.

This is going to get interesting....

@Orton
Do remember that externalities are positive as well as negative, and that they require contextualization.

To put it quite simply, it is arguable that the planetary ecosystem may experience fewer forcings if humanity did not exit. It is an open question as to whether long-term climate trends would markedly alter, and if they did, whether the change would produce a positive or negative “benefit”.

This current hysteria stems from asymmetrically applying the precautionary principle (the strong version, i.e., the popular/media version, aka “the chicken little wordview) purely on the side of negative externalities. The results are as we have them.

A balanced lifecycle analysis of all contributions is required. The unasked question is: contributions to what? If it is to the “health” of the planetary ecosystem, then killing 99% of the people on the planet ought to get you there. Oh? We must consider the ‘health” of humanity? Long-term or short-term? Who decides?

Who benefits?

Cal2 - I swear I didn't watch your links before I posted. But thanks, now that I've seen them, I don't feel so alone in my thinking. :-)

I am deeply saddened by the closure of the Bali conference. No more insightful insights about achieving achievements, no more schoolgirl adulation for the likes of Bianca, Al and Ban, no more travelogue tips about the dangers of Bali celery, no more hilarious anecdotes about the dangers of time zones....*sigh*.

Hopefully Stephane will find something else worthwhile to blog about. Some suggested tittles:

Small Braindead Activist....Prioritizing Priorities.....Koyoto the Educated Dog Said Arf....UnaMusings...

Syncro

ET and MND
how about ...
environmental embezzelment.

@ET

Calm, please. You do understand that a point-by point rebuttal only works if someone is keeping score? Focus on the central issues, ignore the cant.

BTW, externalities are those “costs” not incorporated in the “value” of a product.

Please, please, please...let the hysterical chickens keep talking externalities. Loudly…in public, so that even the dim-witted can realize the trade-offs.

Combine this with the travesty of scientific process that under girds the climate alarmists and we can perhaps focus on more important issues.

I wonder what these might be?

"if you need somthing to be afraid of, how about the mercury in those compact flourecents.

scares the sh## out of me."

Absolutely correct! I haven't seen one of these lights that wasn't made in China. Given their track record for contaminating products, you have to wonder if it just mercury in the lights or something that will have far more sinister affects down the road when all these bulbs are discarded.
If you ever break one, be very careful!!

"Orton"

Obviously has rejected fact, scientific disent as well as civil dissent to his utopian resource regulatory order...he obviously wants to be a minion or termite in the propsed new global bureicratic order.

My answer remains..Orton it will take a lot more proof, force and itellect thatn you have shown to make me concede 1 penny or one thought to this new green global bureaucratic order.

Blow all the hot air you want...frog with my freedoms, personal determination or any other freedom and you will get the horn.

Didn't Baird refuse to meet with these idiots.
Every generation has wanted more for their kids than they had. For the last several years kids married and expected to start life with more than their parents retired with. Now, we have a generation of idiots that want to start with less than parents have, (laugh) live a live of simplicity, going back to our grandparents time. OOPS, can't do that in Ont, can't hang out the wash on clotheslines. I wonder if the parents, grandparents, aunt & uncles of these idiots feel guilty for giving them "things" for the past 18-25 yrs. Guess they don't have to buy presents this Christmas for them. Tell them it is their contribution to reducing emmissions.
And, I bet that most of them are still living at home and mooching off parents, and don't have jobs. How dare that group go to Bali and pollute the islands air with their co2.

One scary aspect about all of this kerfuffle is the fact that we had to rely upon old-style scientists to get us out of it. What's the average age of the members of the International Climate Science Coalition? More to the point: how long before they retire?

I don't want to veer into preachiness here, but we should be thankful that they stepped in. Myself, I'm awfully glad of their 'truculence'.

A Look at how one other 'developing' country sees what happened at Bali:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Finally_climate_changes_for_India/rssarticleshow/2625290.cms

"NEW DELHI: After two weeks of diplomatic dogfights at Bali, India, led by Science and Technology Minister Kapil Sibal, clinched an almost impossible deal at the UN conference on climate change.

It successfully defended itself against imposition of binding targets for reducing greenhouse gas emissions. And, just as significantly, it isolated an obstinate US, cornered other rich countries - such as the EU member states - and made them accept the responsibility of funding and supporting transfer of clean technologies to developing countries."

--------
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Bali_meet_to_impact_carbon_credit_biz/articleshow/2595984.cms

NEW DELHI: The carbon cowboys of the world, including Indian carbon 'bonds', have all rushed to Bali for the global meet on climate change. The next 10 days of the UN meet could either deflate the existing $5 billion carbon credit market or expand it dramatically depending on the fate of the proposals before the 190 countries gathered there.

The carbon market is an offshoot of the Kyoto Protocol that demands greenhouse gas emission cuts from rich countries. The Clean Development Mechanism (CDM) under the protocol allows rich countries to buy carbon credits to offset their targets, in return providing funds to developing country entities to buy clean technologies."

"... One of the key issues to be thrashed out would be the inclusion of forestry as one of the many CDM project options. India Inc, especially the paper and pulp industry, is keen to make money from its forestry operations and the government wants to earn credits from 'avoiding deforestation' - a climate speak which means demanding money from rich countries for maintaining the forest cover at the cost of economic development. It is a contentious issue, because it could provide a lot of carbon credits if allowed under the CDM process which could also lead to a crash of prices with supply side seeing a surge."

----
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2625314.cms
Q: Will the Clean Development Mechanism initiated by Kyoto Protocol, which allows developed countries fund clean projects in developing countries to earn credits, continue even after the present Kyoto Protocol ends in 2012?

"I think CDM will continue. Procedural improvements could be made, but otherwise it is a good mechanism. The agreement is in place that the 2% levy on credits earned from CDMs would go into an adaptation fund to be used for financing investment in clean technology. It would help offset interest rates to make capital costs of clean technology cheaper."

---
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/India_to_gain_as_Australia_signs_Kyoto_pact/articleshow/2593349.cms

"Pakistan, the spokesperson for G77, along with China demanded a legally binding instrument that would force rich countries to transfer clean technologies that they (and their industries) hold intellectual property rights to and also pay poor countries for adaptation to climate change consequences."

Orton Park,

Why was a very large island in the north Atlantic ocean, given the mame "Greenland" rather than "Whiteland"?

I just wander if it might have had anything to do with the color of it at the time?, Or even part of it, like the fiords? And why were those fiords green?
Might of it had anything to do with the prevailing temperatures at that time?
My goodness they must have had a hell of a lot of global warming to have melted that much glacier ice? And the polar bears, did they all perish and subsequently come back again, from the dead?
Where is all the evidence of the great amount of worldwide flooding that must have occurred when much of that ice capped of that huge island melted?
Please do explain.

Climate cheques?

Posted by: wallyj at December 15, 2007 3:29 PM

You realize how many forests will be decimated if we started writing cheques for this GW Scam?

I guess Baird and Harper should have shown "Liberal leadeship," that is, agree to everything and then some, then go home and do absolutely nothing.

The Torstar editorial yesterday was absolutely laughable, about how Canada "disgraced" itself (apparently by defending Canadian interests against the numbskull idea that if they and US showed "Liberal leadersip," then of course he developing world would come on side). Does anyone believe that BS; where is the Liberal climate plan, you know the one where we send $billions to increase pollution elsewhere, but we somehow get rich from it.

The hypocrisy of China was someting to behold; yes, send us $$$ to develop clean fuel technologies (translation: build some more coal fired electrical generating stations); but, we aren't going to change a single thing we do or take any responsibility whatsoever for our pollution.

How about our illustrious youth taking carbon spewing flights to Bali, when Baird was avaiable, for some, half an hour away in Ottawa. I guess their idea of "leadership" is to wag their fingers at people that worked their a***s off to give them their standard of living, then grab each other by the wastes, sing Kumbaya, or Hey Ho, Hey Ho, while doing the f****g bunny hop around the room, no doubt between rounds of shooters.

What the above-mentioned cabals will never understand is that when Kyoto compliance intersects an election and the voters' wallets, along with the increasing skepticism about Kyoto's efficacy (non-existent as Bali has proven), the left will be replacing all their leaders, who will be looking for teaching positions at various universities, where they can simulate real life in the seminar room.

Can't wait for the Kyoto election; it will be fun!

Let's close all the clean industry in Canada and move the production to dirty unregulated plants in China. Somehow that will help fight pollution.
Let's start with the Ontario auto industry.

To celebrate the Bali conference, I let my '91 Crown Vic, 5.8 litre V-8, with a HUGE carbon foot/stomp print, just idle away in the driveway for 3 hours. Oh yea, and I breathed heavily/ excessively!! Well, at least 'til I passed out.

"I vote for condoms to be given a carbon credit" posted by doug @ 3:57

The Liberals had red condoms available at their Convention. Wonder if that was Dion the environmental expert's idea or was it just to counteract the come-on red thongs they also had available?

Can you imagine the "climate" of insufferable, self-righteous superiority on the aircraft that carried these 32 toddlers on their trip to Bali Hai? Wonder if it was as bad on the return trip?

cal2 at 10:44, the vacuous greenie Christmas letter was a hoot.

The three companies (Encana, Iogen, and PlascoEnergy) travelled to Bali on their own dime. They were invited by the Canadian government because it believes that each has a useful and potentially disruptive Canadian technology to showcase to the world. It made good business sense for the companies and good press for the Canadian government. If these technologies take off, Canadians will have better jobs, the environment will benefit, and the world will pay attention to us for more than our oil.

" ... he secured contracts worth nearly $50,000 from Natural Resources Canada in 2007, for 15 weeks of work."

During all of 2007, Canada had a Conservative Govt. They approved of these contracts.

"Can you imagine the "climate" of insufferable, self-righteous superiority on the aircraft that carried these 32 toddlers on their trip to Bali Hai?"

Yes, I can imagine that atmosphere. But that sort of thing is not exclusive to one side of the political spectrum. There are plenty of other places where an odious air of completely unjustified superiority can be found.

Joe B.: "Sorry, John Cross, but you're just plain wrong;"

No need to apologize, your honesty is refreshing. However, if you are able to read and think, what are you focusing on? Do you read and think about the critical analysis of the papers that are produced?

Oh, and I hate latte. THe only drink worth discussing over is beer!

Regards,
John