And, remind me again, which province was it that actually seriously considered introducing Sharia law within its boundaries?

When is our society going to wake up and screen out the extremist murderous nutbars?

Imagine a Islamic Version of this little 80's Gem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9J9rTZJBmw

Apparently it would have been slasher film.

Joe,

Dont blame the province....blame the party that was promoting it...........NDP........

And it never got that close.

But I agree with you if it had, this might not even get prosecuted but shunted off to some ridiculous religous court.

There is no such thing as Islamophobia. After all, a phobia is an irrational fear and there is nothing irrational about fearing Islam.

I suspect the Canadian media will downplay this. Already the cowards at the Globe and Mail have disabled commenting on the story.

Update: I've just learned that the girl has died.

I've just heard that the girl died.

Will this be a story line on LMOP.

I just got back from a two month holiday. It's so nice to be back in such a tolerant society.
Honour killings, manslaughter for the pig farmer,
Politicians wasting our time over Schrieber,O'brien and Bali. Humans rights complaints filed by questionable Canadians.
When the media reports are sort of academic and reflect a sort of stupid discussion one can laugh, but, not when school kids get beaten and strangled. When will this Nation of wimps wake up and demand change?

The CBC is already spinning the story: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/12/11/teen-attacked.html

Teen dead after alleged attack by father

Peel Regional Police on Tuesday released the name of a 16-year-old Mississauga teen who died after allegedly being attacked by her own father.

Aqsa Parvez was found in her Longhorn Trail home on Monday morning without any vital signs.

Paramedics managed to revive her and took her to Toronto's Sick Children's Hospital where she died late Monday night.

Police said they received a call from a man who said he'd just killed his daughter.

The victim's father, Muhammad Parvez, 57, was arrested at the scene. He will appear in court on Tuesday and face murder charges.

Aqsa Parvez's friends told CBC News that the teen had been having arguments with her father because he allegedly wanted her to wear a traditional hijab.

"She kinda wanted to go a different way from the way her family wanted her to go," said one friend.

They also said that she wanted to escape the family conflict by running away.

On the family's quiet street neighbours were dismayed calling the events "a tragedy." One neighbour said she was "praying for the family."

Waqas Parves, the victim's 26-year-old brother, has also been arrested and charged with obstructing police.

"Alleged", "Allegedly", "nice quiet street", "kind of wanted to go a different way";
Apparently, this was an exceptional event.
And the comments are closed at the Globe and Mail story.

I don't think we should form generalities on one case where a father and his daughter entered an altercation that led to violence. It's no different than a Christian dad who chokes his kid because he goes to the pool room instead of attending church on Sunday morning. The dad is screwed in the head in either case, he needs to be dealt with in a court of law.
As for my being "Islamophobic," I do beleive I have a constitutional right to fear whatever I see as a threat to my well being. After all, it is fear that tells me not to walk across the street when the red light is on, fear of being hit by a car. Am I autophobic?? You damned right I am.

Hey! You racist colonial oppressors!

It's racist to judge people from other cultures. We need to be tolerant and sensitive to their needs!!

Heh.

JJ

"It's no different than a Christian dad who chokes his kid because he goes to the pool room instead of attending church on Sunday morning"

If that happened then yes. Problem is there is no cultural or religous imperative to do this. You get some recent stuff on the girl that was blinded in an exorcism...so religous nuts all over.

Difference is the exorcism blinding was a mistake, whereas honor killings are intentional.

One hopes no excuse is made for religon or culture in this case. But I can hear the dfence argument now.

As for the spin in the story, I wouldnt get too worked up for it, they have to say alleged, because it is. As well, quiet street. You never know, it may well be. The most horrendous things sometimes occur in the nicest neighbourhoods.

But let the wheels of justice grind forward and prosecute this as any other crime. Culture and religon have nothing to do with the fact that a 16 year girl has been murdered. No amount of ululating relieves the perp of the crime.

Unfortunately it's relatively unknown that when CNN showed the twin towers falling, many Muslims in Canada were cheering. (Some here in Alberta as a matter of fact). I've heard anecdotes of people shopping in a Muslim owned retail store where many of them were gathered around a tv set cheering "Look what WE just did".

Anyone here remember those 3 Muslims arrested in Fort McMurray just after 9/11? They had blueprints of one of the tar sands plants and "allegedly" one of them was taking flying lessons as well. Where's the MSM? Where are they now? I've spent hours on Google trying to find out waht happened to these men, but it's one dead end link after another.

I also heard of 3 or 4 men being arrested in southern Alberta also with blueprints, hanging around a natural gas compressor station that were quickly and quietly whisked away. This story too never saw the light of day. Sorry folks, but the sleeper cells are already in place and a complacent media is all too willing to turn a blind eye.

Of course once West Edmonton Mall is a smouldering pile of rubble or there are mass line ups at the clinic from the after effects of a dirty suitcase nuke, the left-lib MSM talking heads will be calling for Harper's head.

Leftism has again proven to be a serious brain disorder.

It will be indeed interesting to follow this case in the course of time and compare it to the Latimer case!

Sorry Kate, I'm slightly off topic.

We are seeing more and more of these incidents, a conflict between an older generation raised in a theistic society and yet, having moved to a secular society, is unable to adapt. The result is frequently violence. There have been quite a few incidents of death, usually of women, at the hands of male relatives in the past few years. Not only in Ontario but across Canada.

By 'secular' I don't mean without religion; I mean the separation of church and state. That is, religion is deemed a private rather than public affair. Furthermore, it is deemed an individual decision rather than a kin or family decision.

But such a separation isn't easy. You can have family situations where the children are born into orthodox Jewish families and decide to reject this way of life. Sometimes, the result is an absolute cutting of ties in families. What's different among some Islam and other groups, such as Sikh, Hindu? The result of a rejection of the old way of life - can be violence against the individual.

It has to be made clear in our society that although the family is the basic component of society, the individual has the right to dissent.

And importantly, we have failed to allow the family to separate from their old culture and transform that old culture into a modern culture. Our multicultural policies, which insist on the newcomer adhering to the 'old culture' and their original identity (whether ethnic, national, religious or linguistic)means that we have trapped immigrants in an isolate cell.

Canada is sending mixed messages to immigrants. The multicultural sections of the Charter privilege group identities and diminish individual choices. The Liberal political policies and funding promote maintaining a homogeneous group identity and adherence to their 'original identity'.

The Human Rights Act strongly and relentlessly promotes and privileges group identities and rejects dissent and individual analysis. So, we are fostering group isolation and group homogeneity, and even, fostering an unacceptance by the larger society, of immigrant adaptation and assimilation.

On the other hand, our Charter also insists on individual freedom of thought, expression and belief. This is a serious contradiction of rights in the Charter and with the Human Rights Act. Our social and economic mode of life promotes and encourages individual merit, work, choices.

So, we lock immigrants into cells, we don't enable or encourage them to adapt to modern life, we even set up policies to assist them to 'stay the same'. Yet, our modern culture doesn't operate that way - and the result is families that can't cope with the contradictions.

What to do? Deal with the Charter and the Human Rights Act and the HR Commission. End our multicultural policy of isolation and insisting that immigrants remain 'pure' in their original identity. And, start to promote and encourage How To Adapt and yet, Not Feel Guilty.

This occurs in a Liberal stronghold of Mississauga and yet what are the federal Liberal women's caucus pushing for? Divorce Act amendments. Maybe a new Islamic friendly Pink Book?

Silence is deafening from the feministas on the Liberal and NDP side of the political spectrum. I guess violence against women is OK when it's Islamic?

This is a non-story as there was no gun involved.

sarc off

This hits too close to home.
What I want to read next about this story is only that the FAMILY IS DEPORTED.

sorry johnny this kind of behavior and attitude in the muslim community is all to real because it is being taught by the extremist clerics.i had a foster girl over ten years that was a muslim. She was being fostered bacause of death threats by her father and brothers.

ALLA AKUBAR.ULULULUULULULU....

Sorry - posted this under reader tips instead of here....

Did anyone notice the Christmas lights above the door at the residence photo in the linked story?

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2007/12/11/150296.aspx

Very strange decorations for the home of a supposedly very devout follower of Islam.

Bravo ET, an excellent comment that deserves its own post.

Canadian Infidel, you have no idea what "allegedly" means.

i'd like to choke the shit out of anyone who would like to spout moral equivalency on this.

white guy spanks daughter = child abuse, UN Child rights violation, criminal assault.

Brown guy murders daughter in theocratic ritual killing = leading edge of cultural diversity tolerance

I know what I would like to say about this. But, I won't. I have no desire to see Kate brought before a human rights tribunal.

So, I surrender and will hold it back. Which I guess is what they want anyway...right?

This makes me sick. How are we ever going to be a unified nation. We are coming apart with this idiotic Pierre Trudeau inspired Multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism = death by a thousand cuts.

Any society that loses it's identity as a unified culture ceases to be a country.

But then ... isn't that what the new order the globalists are striving for. Not countries ... just one big feudal state?

Close all mosques, deport that entire family and stop bringing these monsters into what's left of our country.

Mr. Parvez named his daughter after the Dome of the Rock --> "al-Aqsa Mosque".

Strange indeed that the house would have lights in celebration of "Eid of the Prophet Isa" --> "Festival of Jesus"

Aaron,

I want to read the father and brother have been convicted and sentenced to 25 years.

I also want to hear the Imman from their Mosque decrying this as an abomination of Islam.

The best thing that can happen is "Canadian Culture" in the form of arrest and prosecution. If the law, in terms of crimes and process, is the ultimate expression of our values,,,something I heard on CBC once, then we should express our culture, which includes abhorence at this.

As a father I cannot imagine how this could be done to a daughter, no matter the reason. But hey, thats my culture.

Throw the book at him and his son.

This is a cross post from the Macleans thread:

"Liz J asks, tongue in cheek, I presume;-) 'We still have a backbone don't we?'

"Canada seems to have lost its collective wit and cojones: we're now, it seems, a nation of surrender monkeys. Our least responsible, least mature, and most intimidating inhabitants—though often styled as 'victims'—are allowed to swagger around, boasting of their rights, while, both literally and figuratively, knocking the rest of us over. Of course, the rest of us are also supposed to take it meekly and keep our mouths shut.

"This has been building for the past 30 years: a few Canadians have had their finger on the pulse that whole time, e.g., people like the savvy lawyer, Gwen Landolt of REAL Women, who fought the Charter before it came into law. So, what’s happened to REAL Women? While still going strong, financially supported by its members, not government handouts, it’s been treated like a pariah. What’s happened re its predictions concerning our social, political, and judicial culture? REAL Women’s been 100% correct. (A voice crying in the wilderness.)

"Re the comments at the Globe and Mail being closed re the horrendous murder of the young Muslim girl: the comment sections of the MSM, like the CBC, Globe and Mail, Star, TVO, etc., have been almost permanently closed to REAL Women and any others who don’t toe the politically correct mentality of the gulag Canada’s fast becoming. Unless the direction we’re headed changes quite drastically and Canadians are allowed to exercise their rights to freedom of association and speech, I’m filled with dread.

"Kyrie eleison."

One of the classmates of this poor girl comments on the barbarity:

"Sixteen-year-old girls worry about makeup and boys, not about surviving," another classmate said. "It's not right. She's 16, damn it."

Perhaps more people are waking up and will stop tolerating the intolerable?

On a past thread, zog commenting on the CIC complaint:

"Up to now, I've regarded the many suggestions on this site that Muslim immigration should be stopped as offensive bigotry. NO MORE. This crap is a clear warning of the growing Islamic threat to basic human rights in Canada."

Indeed. Why should we import brutal, political barbarity masquerading as religion into our country? Is there a benefit, even just one?

The point is, yes, Muslims are or can be, more or less, people like anybody else. There are secularists and moderates, or the 'nice' muslims, who are nothing other than backsliders, or more appropriately verging on being apostates. And then there are the murderous, fascist 7th century savages, who are actually the good, pious muslims, according to their faith, texts and teachings.

There are various sects - sunni, shia, etc. And then sects within sects, ie Wahabiism, Khomeniism, etc.

But the thing that enjoins them all is the foundationally violent core of their ideology best expressed in their trilogy - the Quran, Hadiths (actions and sayings of Mo) and Sira (bio of Mo).
All Muslims, regardless of sect are commanded to and rewarded for perpetual violence against non-Muslims, until the world is for Allah, and Mo. They are also commanded to commit barbaric acts of violence in order to uphold the laws of shariah. Hence, stonings, honour killings, throwing gays off roofs, cutting off limbs and heads, lashings for victims of rape, etc.

I would like to know how the idiots in charge of immigration would have ever thought that simply by allowing muslims to immigrate here, that somehow they would adapt to our ways and give up their savagery and quest for world domination (in other words, political Islam)?

I don't even think most of them still don't have a clue.

When and where in history has that ever happened? Every country that has been conquered, or allowed muslims to immigrate is in the process of Islamic subjugation. Some more, some less - but it is progressive. Exactly like a virus. But then, Liberals somehow don't believe that muslims are commanded to fight a perpetual war until their is no god but allah. Or, that they'll carry out that command. Despite the fact they are doing exactly that, right in front of our faces. And yes, in Canada. The lawsuits, complaints, militant requests, rejection of western cultural standards, marches, protests, the endless number of official legal and cultural Islamic associations and entities popping up, all with ties to Wahabi Saudi money and terrorist groups - are more than enough proof.

The passive jihad is heating up.

As they feel more established and emboldened by their numbers, we'll witness more, not less Islamic violence and intolerance.

Isn't this swell?

Should this man be charged with a hate crime?
His actions seem much more in line with 'hate' than many of the 'alleged' (and confirmed as well!!) hate crimes I've read about in the past.

Johny Jesus,

Maybe there's a violent reaction going on in North America. However, your implied contention that Christians are the victimizers is backwards.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/11/shooter.youth/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- Matthew Murray wrote on an Internet message board of how he hated Christians between attacks on a mission center and church on Sunday, according to Denver-area media reports.
"You Christians brought this on yourselves," Murray wrote at 11:03 a.m. on Sunday, CNN affiliate KUSA reported on its Web site.
"I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @#%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. ...God, I can't wait till I can kill you people. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world," the KUSA report quoted from the final posting.
The posting, under the user name "nghtmrchld26," was made just a few hours after Murray killed two people at the Youth With a Mission Center in Arvada, Colorado, and a few hours before Murray killed two people at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs. He later died in a shootout with a church security guard.

I don't think it's enough to charge and convict the father and/or brother. Yes, that should be done. [And by the way, the use of 'alleged' is legally required even when an individual himself acknowledges guilt; it has to remain until 'proven' in court.]

But focusing only on the individual father ignores the deeper situation where immigrant families are locked into their old identities and unable to reform and adapt to a modern culture.

Our multicultural policies, as operated by the Liberal governments, encourage group identities and encourage and enable homogeneity of these groups, isolation of these groups, and even, set these groups up as 'mini-political entities', with their own authoritarian leaders, who govern and rule that group relentlessly.

Why? Because the larger the group - the larger funding that mini-political entity receives from the govt. So, we've set up these immigrant groups to be locked into group identities. As I said, these groups then become political groups, with authoritarian leaders. These groups then become financial systems, who will help out new immigrants with loans, mortgages, etc where they can't get them from the mainstream society. And, this transforms into group loyalty. It transforms into acceptance of the authority of these ethnic or religious leaders.

This group will fund its own schools, religious centres, loan and funding assistance.

So, we've set up a system where immigrants can't get out of their old culture, can't escape the strictures of the old regime, can't integrate, can't adapt.

Again, the leaders of these ethnic, religious groups will maintain tight control over their community. They want the numbers - to get the funding from the political govts (provincial).
And - they DO get funding. In return for bloc votes.

We must change how we deal with immigrants. Break the multicultural political mini-empires; end these isolate little 'nations' and their autocratic rulers. Focus on treating immigrants as families, not members of a group identity, and focus on enabling them to adapt.

Otherwise, we are doomed to more and more of these murders and violence, because we have set up a situation where the old culture is encouraged to be retained..and it will inevitably clash with the daily modern culture all around it.

No doubt--horrific for everyone involved and the father should face murder charges in the death of his daughter without bringing religion/culture into it.

However, I can't help but think of those out there who have NO IDEA what a hijab is, what it means to Muslims and why many Muslim women CHOOSE to wear it. I would guess that this young girl was teased at school for wearing it and fell victim to "what looks cool" as stated by her peers/media.

Did she have the right to NOT wear the hijab? Under our laws, yes. Would she have CHOSEN to wear the hijab had peer pressure/media not played a part? We'll never know because her father made that choice for her.

'him' - you have no proof that this girl didn't want to wear the hijab because of peer pressure at school. In her school, the stronger possibility is that there were/are many girls who ARE wearing the hijab. And without peer pressure to take it off.

The problem is in the conflict within her family, and there is a deeper conflict within our multicultural policies that have set up immigrant groups within mini-political entities, with their own authoritarian leaders, financial assistance, loyalties etc. They are trapped within these 'identity groups' and their politics.

Canada has to end this multicultural policy and enable immigrants to integrate rather than be beholden to the authoritarian 'rulers' of their ethnic/religious groups.

Posted by: john at December 11, 2007 12:06 PM

I know what it means. The CBC just went out of it's way to use it over and over again. Not to mention the soft quotes about the girl 'kind of wanting' to do her own thing. And how many of us here don't live on normally quiet, peaceful streets.

Overall, it was a nice, short sweet story from the CBC that just happened to involve a Muslim father killing his daughter.

"Overall, it was a nice, short sweet story from the CBC that just happened to involve a Muslim father killing his daughter..."

...Allegedly. See? You don't know how to use it. Most bloggers don't.

From ET's comment: "And by the way, the use of 'alleged' is legally required even when an individual himself acknowledges guilt; it has to remain until 'proven' in court."

I still want them deported. It's taquiya, dammit, whatever they say to the infidels is a lie.

How can you not get it: there is no negotiation with muslim, they are not talking to non-muslim in order to reach consensus - if they are talking, it is in order to achieve global caliphate.

Try them and if convicted - out they go!

Kate said, "In addition to murder charges, this case demands to be prosecuted as a hate crime."

Kate, Kate, Kate, you should know that only WHITES can commit hate crimes. This victim of racist, WHITE, European oppression protected his daughter from succumbing further to the evil ways of WHITE European racism.

Even “him” can see that the daughter was a victim of WHITE European teasing and bullying; he can actually “guess” that she was teased into not wearing the blessed hijab. “him” obviously does not give her any credit for making up her own mind (as if her behavior did not express what she thought about wearing a hijab). But that is because she was a victim of evil WHITE teasing.

alledged that this will not be plot line for "little mosque on the prairie"

I don't get it. I'm pretty sure that Little Mosque on the Prairie made it out that only non-Muslims are uptight about the hijab.

I heard this on CHUM FM this morning as I laid there trying not to get up. At 7:30 she was "not expected to recover", so I guess they were right.

After throwing this child killer into the deepest, darkest hole available for the maximum time allowed under our present, idiot legislation, would it be too much to ask that if he still lives he be DEPORTED back to whatever crap-hole spawned him?

Incidentally for all you moral relativists out there, it is impossible to "leave Islam out of it" in this case. Islam is the motivation for the crime. It would be like leaving money out of a robbery.

The sob confessed to police that he did it, he should have been taken out to the street and given a lead injection behind one ear.

ET,

I guess where I am coming from is a similar place. Our laws shouldnt be adapted to accomodate religous or cultural practices that are against "the law"

To me, prosecuting him in the dispassionate manner that seperates all of the cultural and religous issues out is what finally puts the spike in this.

You mention religous lending institutions, on one level it is a different product, the danger comes in do you change your regulatory oversight to accomodate? Or do you say these are the boundries into which things must fit so that regulatory equality can be maintained.

I agree with you that if you can just setup all the comforts of the home country here, laws, lending, etc then why are you here? Unless it is to ultimately have your laws etc.....to be cheeky thats what the Europeans were up to 400 years ago :-)

I think it is a triumph of our "culture" if they are prosecuted under existing laws in existing evidence and get an exosting punishment with no reference to cultural exceptions.

Related:

The Secretary General Addresses the Opening of the International Conference on Islamophobia, Istanbul, December 08, 2007

“Prof. Ihsanoglu mentioned that causes of Islamophobia are many and rooted in historical animosity, and currently it is the principle of freedom of expression that is being used as a cover to foment the phenomenon in the West, although many international and national legal instruments do not allow incitement to religious hatred. He also advocated the importance of moral and ethical responsibility in practicing democracy.”

So Prof. Ihsanoglu considers that freedom of expression is being used as a “cover” for Islamophobia.

“The Secretary General stressed that dialogue initiatives should propose a specific path and have a well-defined ultimate goal. He welcomed the dialogue calls from some Western countries but requested that those countries should undertake a preliminary internal or domestic dialogue among the different trends in their own societies to clarify their stands.”

Presumably Prof. Ihsanoglu means that the other countries of the West should emulate the EU in their approach to the principle formerly known as “freedom of speech”. The EU, as you may recall, has put together the framework decision on combating racism and xenophobia, which lines up nicely with what the OIC is calling for:
- - - - - - - - -
Racism and xenophobia will mean belief in race colour, descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin as a factor determining aversion to individuals.

Certain forms of conduct outlined below committed for a racist or xenophobic purpose will be punishable as criminal offences:

public incitement to violence or hatred;

public insults or threats;

public condoning of genocide or crimes against humanity as defined in the Statute of the International Criminal Court;

public dissemination or distribution of tracts, pictures or other material containing expressions of racism and xenophobia;

directing of a racist or xenophobic group (by “group” is meant a structured organisation consisting of at least two persons established for a specific period). [emphasis added]

“He expressed his firm conviction that what unites Islam and Christianity outweighs what keeps them apart based on their common beliefs and common ancestry and that it was on this premise that he had frequently called for a “Historic Reconciliation” between Islam and Christianity.”

Reconciliation? They deny the divinity of Christ, placing Mohammad above him as the ‘seal of the prophets’ (which is also ludicrous, given that he cannot be a prophet in the line of Judeo/Christian belief, he’s an arab). Their cobbled together abomination of a cult is based on the teachings and actions of Mohammad - a known pedophile, mass-murderer and thief. There is nothing even slightly similar between Christianity and Islam. They are diametrically opposed.

There are no common beliefs, or common ancestry between them. None. Christianity has at least one thing in common with most other religions - most of them observe the golden rule. Unlike Islam.

Say Matt, what are the chances this girl caught more grief from the other kids at school for NOT wearing the outfit? Half the kids in Mississauga schools are Muslim, aren't they?

So the father and brother aren't just allegedly murderers, they need to brush up on their Islam. From the Muslim Canadian Congress, 18 April 2007, an op-ed piece from the Globe and Mail:

Muslims are not required to cover up

All Canadian women have, at some time in their lives, chosen to wear a head cover. In blinding snow storms or freezing rain, the covering of the head, irrespective of what religion one practises, is crucial to one's survival. Halfway across the world, in the deserts of Arabia, whether one was a Muslim or a pagan, the covering of one's head and face was an absolute necessity -- not just when facing a blistering sandstorm, but any time one stepped out of the home in the searing sun. What was essentially attire for a particular climate and weather has been turned into a modern symbol of defiance and, at best, a show of piety by Islamists and orthodox Muslims.

There is not a single reference in the Koran that obliges Muslim women to cover their hair or their face. The only verse that comes close to such a dress code (Sura 24, "The Light," verse 31) directs believing women to let their head coverings obscure their bosoms.

Yet, in the past few decades, Islamists and orthodox Muslims have made the covering of a woman's head the cornerstone of Muslim identity. The head cover been pushed as a symbol of piety and only the Egyptian and Saudi version of the head cover -- the hijab -- is considered worthy of respect. Coverings that originate in South Asia, the sari or the dupatta, have been relegated as less authentic under Islam....

Throw the guy in the clink and let him do maximum hard time. Muslims have to know that, in Canada, Canadian justice supersedes Islam. Which brings up the wider point I would make: if this poor girl's father isn't dealt with justly then we can expect to see more Islam-justifiable murder, particularly so if he gets off lightly due to religious considerations of some sort.

"As they feel more established and emboldened by their numbers, we'll witness more, not less Islamic violence and intolerance.
Isn't this swell?"

Actually from a certain point of view --- Yes.

I am not completely convinced that there is no such thing as a 'moderate' Muslim, but I am convinced that people from certain areas of the World should be subject to very intrusive testing before they are allowed entry into Canada. There is no place here for the type of medieval attitudes that this crime exposes to the light. This is called an 'honour killing'. Unhappily certain cultures really know next to nothing about what constitutes true 'honour'. And the insidious relativistic values promoted and enshrined by official 'multi-culturalism are nor helping any. All values are NOT acceptable. We cna't do too much about the loons in Pakistan for example but we can do something to make sure they don't come here.

Better these cretins bring their insane values out into the open where society can recoil in horror and begin to deal with them, than that they fester under the apparently tranquil surfaces of self-isolating communities.

Him wrote: However, I can't help but think of those out there who have NO IDEA what a hijab is, what it means to Muslims and why many Muslim women CHOOSE to wear it

If it meant getting beaten or strangled to death, I would probably choose to wear one also.

Get this through your head my friend, we are not to blame. It is not our fault. If you want to feel guilty about this, go ahead. I'll go one further. It's all your fault and the people like you who voted in the politicians who allowed it to go as far as it has.

Any punishment this confessed murderer gets will simply make him a martyr, in his eyes and in the eyes of the “faithful”. It will also make him a victim of WHITE racist bigotry.

If he does jail time, he can use that as an opportunity to spread the word, to convert his fellow prisoners to the one and only true faith that Islam is - Ali Akhbar! His undying (as it were) faith will make him an effective evangelist – hey man, he walks the talk; he lives his faith (his daughter dies, but she was an apostate).

Is "him" suggesting that the girl's peers are to blame for this, and not her backwards father?

RG

all this hatred..directed towards all muslims...why?

yes, there appears to be a group of fanatics that do not go by true islam (A religion that purports peace and goodwill, believe it or not), but there are a huge majority of muslims that were born and raised here, and no nothing but Canadian culture, minus a few religious functions in which we eat good food and see our extended family. that's it..

what this father did, was wrong, abhorrent, and completely not allowed in any way shape or form in islam - so hate this man, if you will, but please, do not generalize that all muslims are like this....

That is it! No more letting ANY Muslim into this country without he or she renouncing any practice of Sharia Law for controlling females in their families. If they don't agree to this they don't get in. Its that simple. Where are all the hate crime charges and Human Rights complaints against these Islamic zealots? Non Muslims get rung-up for far less than the hate spewed by many Islamo-facists. What the hell is wrong with this country letting a-holes like that into this country?

Johny Jesus,

Maybe there's a violent reaction going on in North America. However, your implied contention that Christians are the victimizers is backwards.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/11/shooter.youth/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- Matthew Murray wrote on an Internet message board of how he hated Christians between attacks on a mission center and church on Sunday, according to Denver-area media reports.
"You Christians brought this on yourselves," Murray wrote at 11:03 a.m. on Sunday, CNN affiliate KUSA reported on its Web site.
"I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @#%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. ...God, I can't wait till I can kill you people. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world," the KUSA report quoted from the final posting.
The posting, under the user name "nghtmrchld26," was made just a few hours after Murray killed two people at the Youth With a Mission Center in Arvada, Colorado, and a few hours before Murray killed two people at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs. He later died in a shootout with a church security guard.

You got it, RG.

A good Muslim NEVER criticizes another Muslim; they always try to blame the evil kafirs.

Well, this tragedy is outrageous. Clearly it is time for us to recognize that monotheistic religion is idiotic, and has no place in a civilized society. Obviously, recognizing "the supremacy of God" (Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, the Tooth Fairy, or whatever) frequently leads some people to actions that clearly contradict "the rule of law", and our Charter should discontinue harbouring this contradiction.

You amaze me, zarah!

It is wonderful to see a professed Muslim criticize this confessed murderer. But, please, watch your back. You may well have exposed yourself to the likes of the confessed murderer, and the others in Islam who support his murderous behavior.

I am eagerly awaiting the CIC’s outrage at this confessed murderer and professed Muslim; they will, of course, publicly and unconditionally denounce him. NOT! If they say anything, it will be the usual tripe about Islamophobia, and racist bigotry of WHITE Canadians.

There was never an attempt to introduce "Sharia Law" in Ontario - get clue, people. There was an attempt to introduce private arbitration (of the sort that already exists, and appies to civil cases only) based on the Sharia. Participation in private arbitration in Ontario is not mandatory, and an private arbitration tribunal cannot deliver a decision that is not possible under Canadian law - and cannot get involved in criminal matters.

This would have had none, zero, zilch, none at all effect on criminal law and its enforcement - and the province cannot change criminal law in any case. Anyone who says that under that Sharia initiative honour killings would have been permitted simply does not know what they are talking about.

There was some argument whether or not this sort of private arbitration is a good idea, or whether or not private arbitration at all is a good idea - but whatever position one takes on that, it has nothing to do with criminal law. It would not have brought beheadings for adultery and whatnot to Ontario.

Had enough of Islam yet? There is lots more to come you racists...;)

Bl@ckhead

Who said the Muslim was brown skinned? No one. I don’t care if he was a European Bosnian or Arab. What he did in the name of his crap religion was totally unacceptable.
Now get your progressive sorry ass back over to rubble.

RG

I think I stated clearly who I think is to ultimately blame for this girls death.

I am just asking you, as parents, aunts, and at one time 16 year olds, to remember what it was like to be 16 and all the peer pressure that comes with it. Let's face it--religion--all kinds--isn't sexy. Most people would rather read porn and email it to all their friends than to email their friends an email/story,note/passage that made reference their faith.

I am just hoping this girl stood up to her father because she felt strongly her religion was too oppressive not because it was uncool or because she was teased or laughed at by her peers.

I think someone in the comments at the NP story is taking the piss.
From PeaceLove:"In America does the father not make the law for the child?
If the child disobeys the father is their no consequence?
Everyone wants to protect the culture of the white catholic, but rights of Muslims everywhere are trampled upon!
Everytime I go to the airport, everyone staring at me."
And next,"surely you understand that this child severely disrespected Islam as surely as if someone had torn your bible from your hands.
Why do all other religions enjoy peace free from prosecution but Islam is singled out as unacceptable?
This is your law. We come to your country and obey your law. To ask us to ignore our culture while we do so is just racist."

You can only consider this multicultural if you consider the sexist creeps of the patriarchy the deciders of a people's culture. This is no more Araic than footbinding is Chinese, or organ relocating corsets the defining culture of the English. It's certainly the type of problem present in the people, and how misogyny comes out varies from culture to culture, but it's misogyny. We can have cultural differences without misogyny.

- Georgia

"I am just hoping this girl stood up to her father because she felt strongly her religion was too oppressive not because it was uncool or because she was teased or laughed at by her peers."--Jim

What possible difference does that make ? The problem is with the father and his cultish sense of 'right'. The motivations for the girl's behaviour are irrelevant. I don't care if Satan himself told her not to wear the hijab although that was probably foremost in daddy dearest's mind at the time he was strangling his own daughter. 'Die --- you spawn of SATAN.'

There is NO place for this type of person HERE.

EVER.

And as others have said he was not an individual loon. He was a 'collective' loon acting according to his code of 'honour'. It's the code that has to be expunged from Canada. Locking up a single symptom of it does nothing at all to address the problem. Not that he should not be locked up ,just that it serves no real purpose in preventing future atrocities.

...and parents can be so backward, and I'm so glad that public school stayed as is.

Each generation should be more progressive than the last, so I cross my fingers. I went to a very mixed school, where the parents, white, black, brown, some red, can be sexist and racist. Thankfully, while their kids are affected, together they were moving pass that, boys and girls were just friends, respecting each other, and people were dating across the racial lines with no thought of race at all. Much to the displeasure of all parents, but fuck them, they'll be dead and bury in another few decades and with them their backwardness. The future, no matter how much handwringing or MURDER they do, will be ours.

Michael - give your head a shake. Who is talking about formalizing Sharia Law? What is being referred to by me in my previous posting is that Sharia Law is being practiced in this country and the murder of that your girl stems from that practice. The father and the brother were enforcing their authority over a "female" as they have the "right" to do because females have no rights. My point and I will state it again is that Muslims wanting to enter Canada should have to formally renounce any use of Sharia Law that gives them authority over Muslim females, period.

Had enough of Islam yet? There is lots more to come you racists...;)

Posted by: BL@KBIRD at December 11, 2007 2:18 PM

Hey Blackbird, you think your threatening us "REAL CANADIANS"?

Anytime goofball.

All the name calling here has me thinking about something I find strange. With all the documented examples of Imams and leaders of Muslim society giving rants and tirades of hating and killing us infadels: Has anyone of them been charged or convicted of a hate crime? I have yet to hear of any although you would think that Richard (insult me, I can use the cash) Warman would have been all over it. Just thinking...

Unbelievable. Let this be a sobering reminder to citizens and governments of Canada. Poor Aqsa Parvez - 16 years old!! Religious freaks and moderates alike should read Sam Harris' book: "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason". Religion is an insult to the human species... to its intelligence, its evolution and its spirit. Check in with reality, perhaps by saying to yourself: I bow to no god, fear no god, and serve no god. I believe in and serve my wife, kids, friends, parents, myself, etc. Islam, Christianity, etc - convincing fairy tales. For those of you who are absolutely clueless: Not unlike plants, insects, cows, we're just living things on a planet, in a solar system, in a galaxy, in a universe, with a life expectancy, where the meaning of life is time. Time/life goes on for Mr. Parvez, but he's just ended his time and everyone else's time with his daughter. Sadly, Mr. Parvez probably believes in an afterlife, where he'll see her again.

Fred...I thought Blackbird was being sarcastic,I hope I'm right.

I guess I should have stuck a sarcasm tag on my post......

Let me rephrase it.....Have you had your belly fill of Islam yet? Because if it is not neutralized it is going to destroy Canada. This is a window of opportunity to expose another of the dark sides of Islam.

While technically not a part of Islam, it is a custom that goes hand in glove with the ideology since it's inception. This is not rare, it is frequent but as usual Islam usually get a free pass.

In muslim lands, it is not a legal thing to do, so you keep a low profile and just do it. If it becomes public you might be charged and you might go to jail ...for a few months, but Islamic justice is merciful as they say and you will get out early. Often the youngest brother is chosen as executioner. Sometimes the girls uncles will rape and sodomize her before she is killed.

Give Islam an inch and it will take your head.

Sorry if I gave the impression that I backed this cult of murder and parasitism, I have no respect for Islam or it's slaves. Feel free to call me an Islamophobic Zionist Racist Bigot.

joe reality - I disagree. This event had little to do with religion vs no religion. The outcome could have been the same in a family with CULTURAL beliefs held within the group. That grouop could be similar in size to your 'kin group' of "wife, kids, friends, parents".

The point is, someone locked into a group, with a group-defined set of immutable beliefs in normative behaviour, is trapped. If they challenge those beliefs, they risk losing their entire kin-related support system.

I'm saying that our Canadian policy of multiculturalism, supported by our Charter and by the Human Rights Act and commission, has set up immigrants into Defined Groups, into Identity Groups, defined by their hereditary Origin. Ethnic origin, religious, linguistic.

Our policies have essentially pushed them into these groups, which rapidly transform from social networks into hierarchies of authoritarian power. The leaders in these groups work to maintain membership, to prevent individuals from leaving and assimilating into the Canadian mainstream.
Why?

Because we've set them up as financial systems. The provincial govts in particular, as well as the federal Liberals, fund these groups, based on their population-count. So, the larger the group, the more money. This money is controlled by the group leaders. It's used to set up schooling in the Original Identity, to help new immigrants with loans and financial aid, language classes etc.

These groups isolate themselves and as I said, try to prevent assimilation. That means, as well, that they don't support self-criticism or dissent within the membership.

This isolates newcomers, makes them fearful of the mainstream society and economy, dependent on the group leaders. Propaganda and fear is an important tactic of control of the membership. The children are caught in a dilemma; they are exposed to the mainstream at school; they are open to assimilation with the mainstream. But, their support system, ie, their families, operate within the closed group. It's a recipe for disaster.

We must stop this practice of multiculturalism, which has forced immigrants into political enclaves, led by authoritarian leaders who enforce isolation and reject assimilation.

It's no different than a Christian dad who chokes his kid [to death] because he goes to the pool room instead of attending church on Sunday morning

Care to provide a citation, Johnny, or are you just talking out of your ass?

We will rue the day we allowed unchecked mass immigration of Muslims into our midst.The 'salad days' of better food and colourful dresses at folkfest have morphed into the bitter reality of child honour killing.

Thank a liberal for this matter next time they come to your door schilling for votes..

Mark my words, these types of actions had better be nipped in the bud HARD (and fast) or you will see a backlash the likes of which we have never seen in Canada in recent memory.

The thin veneer of civility to these types of Islamists is wearing extremely thin, and once riled, the Canadian populace will be a force to rekon with.

But ET, religion is a collection of "immutable beliefs in normative behaviour". Further, the foundation of these beliefs is faith, rather than evidence. Scientific theory, culture, and law, is mutable, unlike religion, which is "divine" (immutable).

Irrespective of some people's differing interpretations of religious texts, the underlying belief in immutable truth (rather than an openness to change via either experience, or evidence) sometimes leads to harm, I feel.

Or, more succinctly, I feel joe reality got it right.

mark peters wrote, @1:15, "Muslims have to know that, in Canada, Canadian justice supersedes Islam."

What Canadian "justice", I'd like to know?

Good point ET.

I'm willing to bet that, eventhough this is absolutely outrageous, we, the non-assertive people of Canada, will do nothing but talk about this, and the circumstances behind her death will fade away in a few weeks, perhaps days. Sad stuff.

mark - cultural beliefs can be as immutable as religious beliefs.

Most certainly, science and law are mutable; they've been specifically set up as such. But culture, with its practices that are often mythic in origin, ie, not amenable to empirical origin, can operate as immutable.

Wearing the hijab is not a religious requirement but a cultural one. Much of the dress of, for example, Hasidic Jews, is a cultural construct. In some cases, the origin of a custom is cultural and then, moves into religious dictum.

For example, the definition in both Islamic and Jewish cultures of the 'pig' as 'unclean' probably began as a medical necessity in their hot climates and transformed into an expression of religious faith.

The privileging of the male in many cultures is not a religious statement, but more probably an expression of a socioeconomic mode that was focused around the work of the men.

Religion in most cases at first affirms the pragmatics of a cultural adaptation, and then, these rules become viewed as immutable.

This also suggests that religious rules, which are, after all, created by humans, can be changed. With difficulty - but, they can be changed.

Its Muslims you dont see other communities do this look at the Hindu community in Canada do ever hear bad news like this coming from them

Joe,

It wont fade, it will be buried and not discussed. It is relevnt because of some nut, but wait, there was the father who drove his car into the kids not long ago....was that because of cross racial dating, or cross religon dating, I believe it was the latter.

Try this simple search

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=%22honour%2Bkilling%22&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryCA

honour+killing

WOW!

Gosh wonder why most Canadians want to cut immigration.

He shouldn't get a hate crime the penalty for murder should be death and unless we are going to bury in pig blood for the hate crime it "SHOULD" be moot.

It's not immigration, it's not multiculturalism, it's not even empty headed Canadians, it's Islam and it's slaves that cause the problem. It is not Christian Lebanese Indian Hindus, Thai Buddhists or Christian Arabs, it is not black, yellow, brown, or purple people. It isn't even Muslim apostates. It is Islam and it's slaves that are the ONLY problem.

Don't ever forget this.

Zarah,

Thank you for posting in this lion's den of anger and (yes, sadly) hate.

I understand where you are coming from. If you were a typical representative of Muslims in Canada, and your voice was heard as its representative, there would probably not be a problem.

I think, though, that people are judging not only based on this single situation, but based on what seems to be going on with Islam in the entire world - anger, entitlement, violence, self-segregation and isolation.

Ultimately, Muslims come to Canada. Until now they have not been a significant and contributing part of this country's social fabric. Based on what we see and hear, sadly there seems to be no good reason to want to invite Muslims into our midst. What do Canadians get in return? Lawsuits against Macleans Magazine and CAIR-CAN accusing everyone of hate crimes. No sense of gratitude for being permitted, yes permitted, the privilege (yes, the privilege) of coming to this rich and peaceful land. We see women in Darth Vader outfits with eyes only showing, trailing behind their sullen husbands who never smile when they talk.

Why does Canada need this? Even if only 5% of muslims are religious nutbars willing to kill for Allah, 1 million Muslims means 50,000 nutbars. Even if only 1%. That 10,000 maniacs.

Yet, it only takes one nutbar with a bomb on the subway or on an airplane to do a lot of damage.

I'll take 1 million Koreans, or Vietnamese, or Poles. Every community has its troubles, but only Muslims seem to make their troubles into the entire society's troubles. And only Muslims seem to so obsessively separate themselves and their children from from the rest of society so as to ensure that the next generation will not be any better. Indeed, experience in Europe indicates that they are worse.

That's why Zarah. I am sorry for you, and many decent individuals who happen to be Muslim and Canadians, caught in this mess. But not so sorry that I want to make it even worse.

I've just sent this to the Human Rights (sic) Commission:

"I am deeply offended by the actions of the instigators of this action: their families have been welcomed to this country and invited to share the freedoms my forebears fought for.

"Now, these people have the audacity to use their newfound privileges to attack the very foundations on which these privileges rest.

"That your commission, paid for by my tax dollars, would entertain allowing this travesty—to persecute a Canadian citizen for exercising his free speech rights—is abhorrent to me. (As are the arbitrary measures the Human Rights [sic] Commissions are allowed to employ.)

"The commission’s apparent willingness to persecute law abiding Canadian citizens, on the flimsiest, often hearsay, pretexts, is anathema to me and many others. The only good result from this—unless Mark Steyn’s rights are fully upheld (as they should be in a free and democratic country)—is that Canadians, who have been unaware of the lack of due process in the commissions’ kangaroo courts, will realize how dangerous the human rights (sic) industry is in this country.

"Punishing law abiding citizens outside due process of the law is draconian and should be outlawed in any democratic country. One can only hope that the publicity generated by the commission’s unwise agreement to hear this case will speed the end of all Human Rights (sic) Commissions, which are an insult to the integrity and freedoms of all Canadian citizens."

The email address is info.com@chrc-ccdp.ca (Another poster provided this address on another thread. Thanks.)

I encourage as many of you as possible to write. Let's flood this blight on our body politic with our displeasure.

Also send copies to the PM and as many MPs as you can. 'Newspapers too. It's about time the light shone into the dark corners of politically correct Canada, where the state can, and does, do arbitrary and dangerous things to its innocent, law abiding citizens.

'Sounds like a gulag to me.

It'll be interesting to see who shows up to support the father and son when they got to court. Equally interesting, who shows to condemn the pair. Wouldn't it be comforting to see very large numbers from the Muslim community show up protesting anyone supporting the pair. One day the moderates have to stand tall against the fanatics. The next several weeks will be very interesting indeed!

The religon of peace is at it again. That should be a hanging offence for killing that girl. It's so sad that a live has been loss to religious stupidity.

Bl@ackbird,

Too bad some did not notice
the wink and smile ...;)
at the end of your comment

In my humble opinion the sarcasm tag is better

Lori, I second that emotion. When we start having mass rallies of Muslims denouncing honor killing and demanding this killer's head on a plate, THEN I will start having some respect for the "moderate" Muslims.

Sikhs by contrast don't tolerate this stuff in their community.

Lori:

Excellent!!

It is with hope that I have thought that it will take the generation of immigrant Muslims to start to assimilate into our culture. Then something like this happens and I fear for those that would try to change such as young Aqsa Parvez.

This coupled with the establishment of separate Muslim communities in the GTA and the potential for another one in the Calgary area, makes me think that my hope is very, very naive.

Actually, honour killings are found among Hindu, Sikh, as well as Islamic communities. It is therefore incorrect to focus on the Muslims as being The Only Problem.

It is a mindset based within a very primitive mode of social organization; namely, tribalism, where the Family and its Kin members are the basis of all social, economic and political organization. To weaken The Family in any way is an attack against the integrity of this social unit.

Tribalism, as well, has the male as the leader of this tribal group, with women as subservient.

It is, again, an error to focus this mode of organization (tribalism) only within the Muslim community.

What must be done is to demolish the infrastructure of multiculturalism in Canada, an infrastructure that isolates immigrants and prevent, indeed, rejects their assimilation. The old mode of organization, tribalism, has to be ended; the immigrant community has to be encouraged to end this organization.

What multiculturalism does, however, is to actually encourage the maintenance of tribalism in these communities. It prevents individuals from assimilating with the broader, modern population, and instead, insists on their isolation within 'tribes' or 'ethnic groups'.

Simply putting one individual through our courts for murder - an act that has been done quite a few times in Canada, for 'honour killings' won't stop the practice. We have to disable multiculturalism and the infrastructure that promotes it; eg, govt funding of ethnic or identity groups; the Human Rights Commission.

Wow, Lori, way to get it completely wrong.

Zarah asks readers like you not to generalize about all Muslim Canadians, and what do you reply with? More generalizations:

- **If** you were a typical representative of Muslims in Canada, and your voice was heard as its representative, there would probably not be a problem.

- We see women in Darth Vader outfits with eyes only showing, trailing behind their sullen husbands who never smile when they talk.

- only Muslims seem to make their troubles into the entire society's troubles. And only Muslims seem to so obsessively separate themselves and their children from from the rest of society so as to ensure that the next generation will not be any better.

Do you really not see how these careless statements are exactly the sort of thing that Zarah was cautioning against? How referring to a hijab as a "Darth Vader outfit" might be offensive, particularly when you are speaking to a Muslim woman, even one who might have chosen not to wear the traditional garments? How using the phrase "only Muslims" rather than, say, "only fanatics" serves only to reveal your own biases and generalizations about Muslim Canadians?

May I suggest that instead of getting all your information about Muslim Canadians from news reports and SDA, to go out and actually get to know, at a personal level, the many "decent individuals who happen to be Muslim and Canadians." Maybe then you'll be a little more cautious with your choice of words.

The Phantom: When we start having mass rallies of Muslims denouncing honor killing and demanding this killer's head on a plate, THEN I will start having some respect for the "moderate" Muslims.

This may come as a shock to you, but Muslim Canadians are not interested in gaining your respect or approval. As fellow citizens and human beings, they require only that they not be discriminated against. Rightly, they don't owe you anything, up to and including mass rallies.

Live in hate and fear all you like. The choice, and the onus, to broaden your mind is yours alone.

Hana, their daughters also only require that their family not kill them for not obeying their idiotic 'religion'.

ET, yes indeed, honor killings are found among Sikh and Hindu communities... in India. Where wives used to be burned on their dead husband's funeral pyres too. Even there it is considered an aberration, not something to be emulated and certainly not something to be preached. Custom moves on.

Here in Canada, this stuff does not get tolerated at Gurdwara. People preaching such things are shunned. Go talk to some of your Sikh students, they'll tell you. Hindus likewise. People came here to -escape- that, they don't want to bring it with them.

...referring to a hijab as a "Darth Vader outfit" might be offensive, ---Hana

Maybe... but certainly not as offensive as the hijab is to the woman forced to wear it.

Boots: wanna bet he gets a public defender (one paid for by you and me)?

Hana: you criticize Lori for using generalizations and how do you do this? By making presumptuous GENERALIZATIONS.

Do you really know that Lori does NOT know any Muslims, and only finds out about Muslims from the NEWS?

I know a number of quite wonderful Muslims, many of whom are appalled by these confessed murderers, beheaders, terrorists, and supremacists Muslim bigots. Unfortunately, they do NOT speak out publicly. Very few Muslims speak out against these monsters; they leave these monsters to set the base line of Muslim public behavior.

Some of the Muslims I know do not speak out because they know they must not be seen to criticize a Muslim. Their public behaviour is always under review by the Mosque, and many Mosques are NOT open to ANY Muslim publicly criticizing other Muslims. Some do NOT speak out because they are afraid to; they can quite easily be called “apostate”, and be murdered. For example, I know Muslim women who think and say that they will be killed by someone from their Mosque if they ever leave Islam. The old kill the “apostate” approach. The moral is DO NOT go against ANYTHING the Mosque decrees.

Hana, of course Muslims do not want respect and approval from non-Muslims. This ugly supremacism is a basic aspect of fundamental Islam. Kafir are not worth considering are they, Hana. A Muslim would certainly not want the respect and approval of a lowly kafir, would they Hana? Of, course, NOT. Islam and Muslims are SUPREME.

Hana, Hana, Hana. You wound me.

This may come as a shock to you, but since I strongly believe in personal freedom I think Muslims in Canada should not have to care a damn if I approve or disapprove of them.

It is, however, my opinion. I don't live in hate and fear, I just don't have much use for people who won't look after their girls, nieces, sisters and what have you. Pardon me if this offends you. Please join the line of people to your left who can k my a.

Should some of these so-far-silent "moderate" types stand up and act like men instead of barnyard animals, I will applaud, aid and abet them. Until then, not so much.

(My deepest apologies to any barnyard animals who may have been offended by this post.)

This story would never make it onto CBC's "Little Mosque..."

Far too much truth of the Mark Steyn variety for Liberal consumption. In addition to the copies of Steyn's "America Alone" being sent to Ontario's HRC, maybe this story should be attached to those books too.

Hana, with respect, I know plenty of Muslims who are not a concern to me, and I would welcome them as neighbours and colleagues. I do not "need to get to know them". I already do. Mostly I know them from work, not so much socially, but some of the latter. Their lives are not any different than mine as best as I can tell. Same concerns, same pleasures, and as Zarah - Islam seems to play mostly a social role and does not dominate their lives from wake to sleep. They laugh at the same things I laugh at and watch Youtube like me. They don't look at me darkly as I talk to them, and they have no hestitation about a handshake, male or female.

I also know the history of Muslims in Canada did not begin at 9/11. It began 3-4 generations or more before that. There weren't major issues until the last 10-20 years. Most were quite educated, many professionals who escaped repressive societies and were glad to come here. They made fine Canadians.

It is this knowledge that makes me try to mitigate some of the anger that is expressed towards all Muslims, when I know that is is a minority that are the problem.

What changed? I believe it to the be a drastic and excessively rapid increase of immigration numbers and more importantly the source of the newer group. Far less educated and worldly, far more easily swayed by the rantings of their "imam", or whatever they read in their local paper.

Also, the world changed, for the worse unfortunately.

And, of course and worse of all, MULTICULTURALISM hit us, drastically reducing any incentive to become part of Canada. Indeed, discouraging this actively, rewarding self segregation with public moneys and voting power.

So we have a problem now.

And sorry. I stand by the Darth Vader statement. It is simply alien in this society to walk around with only eyes (if that) showing. That person makes it loud and clear they want no part of this country and this society. The burka really should be banned.

Hana writes to Lori, "Do you really not see how these careless [sic] statements are exactly the sort of thing that Zarah was cautioning against?" What cheek!

Hana, by what authority do Lori or any of us have to take Zarah's comments with even a grain of salt? She certainly has no credibility with me and I find her "careless", extreme, and unsubstantiated generalities carry no weight at all.

Being a product of the public school system, no doubt, where the slightest "hiccup" of accused racism (religionism?) would have the joint hopping to ingratiate, patronize, and appease, the poor dears (I include Hana here too) are just not used to hard reality. (Zarah's not used to correctly using upper case letters either, another of my beefs with our public school system!)

And, no girls, my comments are no more hateful than yours: please get it into your heads that someone disagreeing with your narrow, politically correct notions doesn't mean that people are hateful.

However, I would say, with authority, that murdering one's own daughter, for any reason, let alone her mode of dress, the on-going political assassinations--an Arab word, BTW--of thousands of innocents all over the world, and using the freedoms provided by one's host country in order to attack that society's most precious freedoms are truly hateful.

The verifiably hateful BEHAVIOUR of too many Muslims, which threatens, demeans, and actually annihilates real people, right here in our midst, is the problem, girls.

And I find it troublesome that you have the audacity to shake your fingers at us, while entirely overlooking the supremely wicked actions of a critical mass of Muslims, who are wreaking HAVOC the world over.

Now, what do you say to THAT?

terrence: you criticize Lori for using generalizations and how do you do this? By making presumptuous GENERALIZATIONS.

A standard definition of "generalization" might be thus: "A proposition asserting something to be true either of all members of a certain class or of an indefinite part of that class."

Have I made any such propositions? No, I've criticized only Lori, and not the entirety of any group to which she might belong. I have, however, made some assumptions, but done so plainly, and only based on what she has written on this thread. She may in turn defend her stated position by exposing my assumptions as false, if indeed they are. I would welcome it.

Unfortunately, they do NOT speak out publicly. Very few Muslims speak out against these monsters; they leave these monsters to set the base line of Muslim public behavior.

That you think these monsters (and indeed they are monsters) set the "baseline of Muslim public behaviour" is your choice, and your problem. I allow my "baseline of Muslim public behaviour," as you put it, to be set by my Muslim Canadian friends, and not by the fanatics who act falsely in the name of Islam.

Hana, of course Muslims do not want respect and approval from non-Muslims. This ugly supremacism...

Nonsense. I have no interest either in gaining your respect or approval, and I assure you that this lack of interest is born not of an "ugly supremacism," religious or secular, but rather of a simple desire to not waste my life pursuing the esteem of the narrow-minded. Forgive my generalizing, but I suspect a similar motivation holds for those in the Muslim Canadian community.

Thanks for the laughs, hana! You made my day!

Just thought I'd copy and paste this excerpt from Robert Spencer at Humanevents.com

...[...] the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR)
has issued a new media guide [...] that purports to “educate the media and disabuse journalists of misinformation” about Islam.
The notorious Islamic advocacy group [...] asserts that “common misperceptions in the media include the notion that Islam is not compatible with democracy or modern culture,
that the Quran teaches violence,
that Muslims around the world hate the US,
that Islam does not respect women’s rights,
and that all Muslims are Arab.”

Except for the fact all muslims are not Arab
- which is totally irrelevant - this is absurd!

And Lori, remember: follow the money, i.e., massive sums from Saudi Arabia which have hijacked the mosques in the West and installed Wahhabist, salafist imams who preach the most vile hate ideology on the planet. AND, the putative Muslim organizations (CAIR, CIC) who pretend to represent the Muslim community, pander to the political elites, get legitimacy there, and take that imprimatur back to their communities as proof that they are the real leaders of the community.

AND as ET has pointed out, watch that block vote buying which the Liberals were absolute masters at.

I have to admit though, that re: the Darth Vader remark, I much preferred the flaming liberal Bill Maher's term for the burqa: "bee keeper's outfit".

Muslim Canadians are not interested in gaining your respect or approval. As fellow citizens and human beings, they require only that they not be discriminated against.

Hey, Hana, Muslim sheeple with their tacitly approving silence, as that's the only call a rational person can make at this point, of all things rotten about Islam negates approving of or respecting them. They are tolerated in spite of their dysfunctional religion and culture which is about as good as it gets when your religion and culture are rotten.

Honor killings like cannibalism are beyond the pale. Want to step forward and defend Muslim's deafening silence on that cultural practice? 36% of Muslims in Britain ages 18-25 approve of the practice. The vast majority of the rest have their mouths nailed shut. Sweet.

Decent human values are by definition discriminatory. Muslims with their primitive attitudes toward women and non-believers sure aren't my equal in a civil society.

Muslims need to reform their rotten religion which fosters such inhumane behavior or stay marginalized, oh, and an object of derision as deserved.

Think you can deal with that kind of reality check verses your lame virtucratic posturing?

DCARDNO

Care to provide a citation, Johnny, or are you just talking out of your ass?

lets try jonestown and koolaid

kristians ain't blemish free, ask any kristian female from the middle east, culturally they are treated very similar to muslim women over their

and so are many orthadox jewish women

and 40-30 years ago there were several killing and wounding of good catholic wives by their catholic husbands rite here in toronto. these killings woundings were done mostly by claw hammer, by portugese construction workers

and there is a past co-work's good catholic cousin who was beat severily by her new catholic husband for not doing as she was told

I could go on, but what for, the blind will never see

Hana said
"May I suggest that instead of getting all your information about Muslim Canadians from news reports and SDA, to go out and actually get to know, at a personal level, the many "decent individuals who happen to be Muslim and Canadians."

Tried that!
Here's a personal ancedote, if that's all you believe in Hana.
I tried your "get to know, at a personal level" at the muslim owned coffee shop behind Sick Kids Hospital for a couple of weeks.
At a really "personal level" it appeared that the hajib wearing staff went to great lengths to ensure that they did not touch my hand when they gave me back my change.

Hana, I think I have to spell it out for you.
You say, ""ugly supremacism," religious or secular, but rather of a simple desire to not waste my life pursuing the esteem of the narrow-minded. Forgive my generalizing, but I suspect a similar motivation holds for those in the Muslim Canadian community."

By doing so, you are not only generalizing, you are DEMONSTRATING ugly supremacism. Thank you!

I really appreciate what you have done here, today, Hana. Thanks again! You do know you have made Muslims look like intolerant, bigoted fools, don’t you?

The "modest and moderate" Hana strikes again: "This may come as a shock to you, but Muslim Canadians are not interested in gaining your respect or approval. As fellow citizens and human beings, they require only that they not be discriminated against. Rightly, they don't owe you anything, up to and including mass rallies." (This, Hana, is called “hoisting oneself on one’s own petard”. Look it up.)

Hana, I guess you don't know about the Golden Rule. And your brazen insult to your fellow Canadians amply proves why many people have a problem with the self-serving behaviour of a critical mass of Muslims. My Christian ancestors—the Golden Rule is the second great Commandment for Jews and Christians—built this free country, to share. But, to have to share with the kind of arrogant freeloader you’ve exposed yourself to be, was most definitely not their intention.

Preferring to live only for oneself, Hana, doesn't readily win friends and influence people. I'd suggest that if you consider Canada and its people simply an easy to exploit convenience, in order to fulfill your selfish ends, you might consider going back to the country which instilled in you such a hateful philosophy.

"This may come as a shock to you, but Muslim Canadians are not interested in gaining your respect or approval. As fellow citizens and human beings, they require only that they not be discriminated against. Rightly, they don't owe you anything, up to and including mass rallies".

No, it is not a shock at all and it just about says it all, eh? Not interested in gaining our respect........ after all, what is the respect of a kafir worth?

Until we do see muslims in Canada standing BESIDE us they will not be accepted. Period. Nor shall they be. Furthermore, if muslims in Canada feel so put out they need to be reminded that the door opens both ways, they are more than free to seek out more congenial locales in which to choke the life from their daughters.

I hesitate to label this tragedy 'Islamic'. It occurred in Islamic family and was about Islamic practices but the response of the father was all too human. A father felt that the gross immorallity of the general society was taking over his family and in a fit of impotent rage killed the daughter he most likely loved very much.
I don't for a minute think that what the father did was right or justified but I don't see a whole bunch of difference between him and Robert Latimer. Latimer says he sought to eliminate the great evil of western cultures, suffering just as this man sought to eliminate the great evil of his world view progressive, permissive, secularism.

Joe, I hope you do NOT have children. There is NOTHING "all to human" about murdering your child.

Holy Hana,have you ever heard of 'namus' from your moderate muslim friends? This is the belief that the man of the family is responsible for the acts of his wife,daughter,mother and sister. when one of these lesser beings commit an act that goes against the teachings of islam,the man loses respect in the patriarchal community. He must then punish the lesser being to regain his 'namus'. Going out in public without the hijab is one of the many,many offences that require punishment. Also talking to an unrelated man is punishable. On a DAILY basis I come across this backward concept. If you are so comfortable with being deemed second class because of your sex organs maybe you should convert and find out,up close and personal,how loving the 'religion of peace' can be.

terrence

Too late I have raised six children. Sorry you missed my point. I was trying to get away from the Islam bashing taking place and recognize that throughout humanity people have taken it upon themselves to eliminate perceived evil through evil means. I'm not trying to make it right just trying to keep us all humble here.

phantom - no, Sikh honour killings also take place in Canada. Not just in India. Eg, Jassi Sidhu, Rajinder Atwal.

If you think that people come here to escape, I suggest you check out the agenda, for one example, SS News, and check out the Sikh Agenda for Canada. You'll see that its focus is the opposite of escape.

http://www.sikhsangat.org/ssn/publish/Canada_20/Draft_Sikh_Agenda_for_the_Canadian_Government.shtml

Items include requests for increased participation in local and national govt, as an 'identity group', government funding for the promotion of this 'identity group', promotion of their unique identity and language, availability of teaching children their language.

This is the opposite of 'forgetting'. This is one example of our multicultural policy, which locks immigrants into replications of their original ethnic, religious or linguistic identity, rejects the devt of a modern identity operating within the Canadian context, and insists on that isolation of the original group.

I try not to get personal in these kind of exchanges but Joe you are a complete and total ------------------------ fill in the blank. Open your freeeekin eyes!!!! This is fundamentalist Islam all the way! What really bothers me is that people who think the way you do all too often get into power in this country and it is leading us down the path to destruction. You are so anxious to accomodate everyone and every point of view that you end up have no morals, no standards, no sense of who we are and where we are going. Those who are hell-bent on imposing their will and way of life on the world find a fertile breedingground here in our beloved Canada for their extremist Islamofacist belief and way-of-life. Someday, Joe, we are all going wake up and realize that we have dug our own grave. At least I will be able to tell you Leftards "We told you so". "Now, try to fix it!"

Cair-Can has issued a press release denouncing zero-tolerance against all women. Nothing about the background of this murder,though. It is crap. If they come out and encourage all women to walk around without thier hijab and fear for one day a week,I would believe them a little more.....Joe,if you can't see the difference between Latimer and this theocratic ragehead,well I don't know,you're pretty f'en blind.

...but I don't see a whole bunch of difference between him and Robert Latimer. --- Joe

If latimer had killed his daughter because she had found a cure that would free her from her ordeal then it would be the same.

western ways, customs and laws are the "cure" for muslim women.

Ending one's suffering is the opposite of ending one's freedom.

a different Bob
Please back away from the computer and take a deep breath. I am not now nor ever in the past defended Islam. One of my state goals in life is converting Muslims to Christianity. All I am saying here is that the reaction of the father is evil trying to eliminate evil. His perception of evil is based in his Islamic belief system, his reaction to that evil is an all too human reaction some would say sanctioned by his Islamic religion. I'm not trying to excuse Islam I'm pointing to the danger of trying to eliminate evil with or through the use of evil.

Whoa, Joe, like your faux virtucrat friend Hana, a lack of humility isn't an issue with those of us coming down hard on Islam and its practitioners. Actually, Islam totally lacks humility. Islam deserves to be mocked and its barbaric practices reviled in the West unless like Hana you want to accomodate its excesses like honor killing, wife beating, polygamy, etc.

...throughout humanity people have taken it upon themselves to eliminate perceived evil through evil means....

Slavery and Hitler as evils weren't exactly eliminated by evil means. It's really an insult to our intelligence to suggest that we can't distinguish between that and the Salem Witch Trials. Get over yourself.

Latimer's daughter suffering was not perceived evil, it was real.

A women showing her hair in public is perceived evil.

Those two fathers have nothing in common, nothing.

western ways, customs and laws are the "cure" for muslim women.

Says who? You're just substituting one belief system for another. Instead of sexual exclusiveness found in most religions you have sexual promiscuity proglamated by western culture. I'm not sure the cure is any better than the disease.

Friend of USA

Suffering is real. Is it also evil?

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/a-free-dominion-against-the-hrcs/signatures.html

Remember the Steyn / Macleans / HRC petition. For all we know, this blog will be where they strike next.

Sexual promiscuity is not so much western culture as it is what liberals/leftists have done to western culture in about four decades.

Sexual promiscuity is not so much western culture as it is what liberals/leftists have done to western culture in about four decades

Absolutely agree with you. And this evil is what so enraged the father that he resorted to evil in order to eliminate it. In Salem the people saw others acting funny and decided that the people acting funny were evil. The good townsfolk resorted to evil and eliminated the evil they saw in others.

The thrust of all my posts in this thread has been that regardless of the motivation Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, Christianity, Judeaism or even secular humanism/atheism the human instinct is to resort to evil when we perceive evil to be present in others. Everyone of us will resort to it or else excuse it given the right circumstance.

GYM...were you valedictorian at your madrassa?

Hana...thanks for being the clear voice of Islam and forgive us filthy kaffirs.

Joe ...no thats moral equivocation, your saying our honor killing friend was only acting on his perception of good/evil. I'd say he was just evil and not anything else.

ET...you apologize for Islam as much as you condemn it. As I have pointed out a few times before, you know nothing of Islam and being "against Zionism" (ie. a Jew hater) puts dung in your arguments.

Instead of sexual exclusiveness found in most religions you have sexual promiscuity proglamated by western culture. I'm not sure the cure is any better than the disease.

The kid is DEAD, you moron. Wearing a Britany Spears accessory isn't much better than being dead for a kid? Get real.

Joe, I propose that you aren't less rigid and mindless than your basic Mohammed spewing primative. You've got the same cemented black and white mindframe scratching past your mindless virtucratic spiel. Go re-read yourself.

Lookout: Hana, by what authority do Lori or any of us have to take Zarah's comments with even a grain of salt?

None, obviously (and FYI: your sentence contradicts your own position, unless by "with even a grain of salt," you actually meant something more along the lines of "at face value"). Except that Lori @ 5:40PM did take Zarah's comments at face value.

The verifiably hateful BEHAVIOUR of too many Muslims, which threatens, demeans, and actually annihilates real people, right here in our midst, is the problem, girls.

I agree.

And I find it troublesome that you have the audacity to shake your fingers at us, while entirely overlooking the supremely wicked actions of a critical mass of Muslims, who are wreaking HAVOC the world over. Now, what do you say to THAT?

I say: I haven't overlooked anything. Terrence calls this critical mass "monsters," and I concur. At the same time, your unwillingness to differentiate between these fanatics and law-abiding, peaceful Muslims adds in its own way to the problem, and thus is also worthy of criticism.

richfisher: At a really "personal level" it appeared that the hajib wearing staff went to great lengths to ensure that they did not touch my hand when they gave me back my change.

Who knows? Maybe she had a cold and didn't want to infect you. Maybe you just look unhygienic. In any case, not wanting to touch your hand--yeah, that surely is proof that they're hateful and unassimilable and probably terrorists-in-waiting. [/sarc off]

Some of the cashiers at the Chinese grocery stores over on Spadina wear gloves and leave customers' change on the counter rather than in their hands. No doubt you can dream up an evil motivation for that behaviour too.

penny

Did I ever defend the actions of the father? No I did not. What the father did was evil. What I continue to say is the motivation is trivial when compared to the condition. That condition being fallen humanity. Everyone of us, given the right condition, would do the same. Thus the need for us to get over our own self righteousness. Working ourselves into a lather based over Islam based on the actions of a murdering father is as pointless as preaching to the choir. We as humans need to look beyond our indignation and pray for the murderer and ourselves that we all might repent and find new life beyond the trap in which we now find ourselves.

F**K ALLAH
F**K MOHAMMAD
F**K ISLAM
F**K P.E.TRUDEAU
F**K MULTI-CULTI B.S.
F**K LIBERALS and their social engineering programs. It's working just like they planned it to all along.
Canadians please take back your culture.

Hana writes, "At the same time, your unwillingness to differentiate between these fanatics and law-abiding, peaceful Muslims adds in its own way to the problem."

Where was I unwilling to differentiate?

And what about the Golden Rule?

HANA - SELMER - DOREEN - PETE FROM OTTAWA - SDA SUCKS, etc. etc. If you plan to continue posting here as a regular, then pick an identity.

The rest of you - it's time to remind you that this is not a chat forum. If you have comments, keep on topic, and limit them to the subject at hand. If you've posted more than three times on a thread, it's time to take it to private email.

Law-abiding peaceful muslims.........unless provoked by such deviant acts as refusing to wear a hijab,getting raped,or naming a teddy bear after a pedophiliac monster.All these occurred in the last month. Cair-Can,the voice of muslims in Canada has released a statement denouncing all violence against women today,without any mention of the religious background of this murder. Why the F not? This was not an act of rage by a father upset at his daughter,this was a religious execution carried out by two,2,you got that TWO men,the father and brother,both named mohammed. I wouldn't be surprised if the apologists on this thread are also named mohammed,scum posing as women,because thier women would never be allowed close to something as blasphemous as free speech.

terrence: By doing so, you are not only generalizing, you are DEMONSTRATING ugly supremacism. Thank you!

Answer me one question: are you interested in gaining my respect and approval? If no, is it because of your own ugly supremacism? After all, that seems to be the only explanation you're willing to accept for my lack of interest in gaining your respect. Perhaps there's another explanation lying in wait. And unless you're a hypocrite, you should hold yourself to the same standards that you hold me to, and vice versa.

richfisher, was that your evil, dirty LEFT hand the Muslims would not touch?

I'm a committed Christian, Joe and I often find what you say eminently reasonable and laudable. Then you write something like this: "What I continue to say is the motivation is trivial when compared to the condition. That condition being fallen humanity. Everyone of us, given the right condition, would do the same. Thus the need for us to get over our own self righteousness. Working ourselves into a lather based over Islam based on the actions of a murdering father is as pointless as preaching to the choir."

This moral equivalency is absolute rubbish, Joe.

If what this father did was just an isolated example--it certainly would be if committed by a Christian dad in Mississauga--then one could remove Islam from the equation. But, Joe, this is not an isolated example of Muslim males' behaviour towards their women. In fact, it's a direct result of beliefs that come from the Koran.

The New Testament preaches a totally different Gospel and Christians are not prone to obliterating their females or people with whom they disagree. I honestly don't understand what you're doing here, Joe. Whatever it is, it's addle brained and definitely lousy theology.

Maybe you just need a good night's sleep. God bless you.

lookout: ...your brazen insult to your fellow Canadians...

That's your flaw, lookout -- you think you're representative of the average Canadian. I know, and love, "my fellow Canadians." And with all due respect, they are not you.

This is extremely sad as a young girl in Toronto is murdered while our troops are fighting to emancipate the women from the Islamists.
Toronto's wish for the armed forces to battle crime might be needed to help emancipate women in Canada.

Sorry lookout what I wrote is not moral equivalency. My point is simply this that we humans are a fallen creation. As such one of our tendencies is to resort to evil when ever we are confronted with what our belief system says is evil. I am not excusing such behavior I'm simply pointing it out. Until we realize that 'us' and 'them' is 'we', humanity will be the lessor. Humanity needs to get over itself, humble itself and seek beyond itself what it can only see now through a glass darkly. What I am truly trying to say is its not the belief or non belief that is evil because belief or non belief is a reflection of the evil that is inate with in us. Only when we seek that which is Good beyond ourselves will we reach our full potential in Love.

Some of my buddies and I just had dinner and we were discussing this POS killing his daughter. One of my friend's son is a cop and he tells his dad that the beatings of women by these guys goes on all the time. He goes on a lot of domestic calls where there is violence within the family but the muslim males are always amazed when they are arrested as it is their right to beat their women. One guy he recently arrested had bloody knuckles and his wife was unconscious after being badly beaten by this creep. He too was incredulous that he was now in custody and berated the cops for interferring in his personal life.

Is there not a manual given to these thugs of Canadian laws and the rules of our society?

Hey Hana, join the muslims and you can give us a blow by blow report of their wonderful culture.

I vote Joe to go out first and talk to the Martians in their great three legged death ray machines.

Hana: "I know, and love, 'my fellow Canadians'. And with all due respect [sic], they are not you."

Wrong on both counts.

Joe: "Only when we seek that which is Good beyond ourselves will we reach our full potential in Love."

Correct. But Islam is not the Way to Love.

This sad story perhaps buttresses the argument for banning all religious symbols in the schools and in the public square.

One of the girl's friends mentioned that she would put on the hijab and then take it off outside the house. Were the father to know, in no uncertain terms, that no hijabs (which are worn involunatrily as political separatist statements!) are permitted in the schools, perhaps this tragic episode would not have developed. And please, no one tell me that a woman should be "free" to wear it: they're nearly always not -- they're forced to by a rigid and brutal patriarchy, which itself is bolstered by the increasing ownership of the mosques by massive Saudi Wahhabi money.

And Michael at 1:56pm: the proposed sharia law in Ontario for arbitration would be voluntary in the abstract only. That's why Muslim women were so outspoken about it and shut it down: they understand what "voluntary" means, as in, volunteer or be shunned (if you're lucky!).

Finally, we've got to do something about foreign funding of the mosques and Islamic centres. It is being used to corral Muslims into the world-wide umma.

Make up all the excuses for muslim intolerance you want Hana.
I just don't go to their shop anymore because of the way I was treated.

BTW I live 100 yds from the two biggest Chinese grocery stores on Spadina.(How Long and Asia Farms)
The check out girls in China Town don't recoil and re-aim when you lift your hand up to accept your change.

Criticise such an incident as a problem of Islam, and you are called a bigot, because, as the multicultural line goes, there are many moderate Muslims who would never even think of doing such a thing.

But where were the moderate Muslims in Mississauga who could save Aqsa? They weren't around. Where were the same moderate Muslims in Mississauga who could stop the 18 from planning the terrorist attack as they did in 2006? I'm not denying that there are moderate Muslims, I'm denying that we can depend on these moderate Muslims to do anything about the not-so moderate elements.

We are fools to place our faith in these moderates. Looking beyond the here and now, as Canada stands on its current path, looking down this path of multiculturalism and mass immigration from Muslim-majority countries, into a future where Canada will become majority Muslim, what guarantee do we have that non-Muslims won't be reduced to the status that non-Muslims now have in Saudi Arabia? Or that Zoroastrians now have in Iran? Or that Yazidis have in Iraq? Or that Buddhists have in the Maldives? Or that Christians have in Egypt? Are there not "moderate Muslims" in all those countries? Yet those moderates have not prevented the disenfranchisement of the non-Muslims that once flourished in those lands. Why should we expect any different in Canada?

he murdered his healthy sixteen year old daughter.
robert latimer comes to mind here, in that there are 2 completely scenarios. one passion the other compassion

But Islam is not the Way to Love.

Absolutely agree with you lookout and I have never said that it is any way to love. Islam is fully rooted in human nature and therefore at its core is evil just as is any other man made religion. What I was posting about "seeking beyond" ourselves is reaching out to the only One who can grant us a new nature. A nature not of our own. However that same new nature calls us not to hate and loathe the very people who most need this new nature. Rather it calls upon us to work all the harder that they too may find the Mercy and Grace that has overtaken us.

How long before the media shifts this incident over to "Muslim community concerned about backlash" sob stories?

2 days?

I’m sure the father’s honour killing is the negligent act of one and should not be used to judge the masses. However, if 2% of all Muslims are “extremists” why don’t the 98% that are not, stand up and show the world why Islam is a “religion of peace” how may candle ceremonies will be held for this young innocent girl? How many foundations, scholarships and fundraisers named in honour of this young girl will be initiated by Muslims, not one!!!

It is so sad, reading all the bloggers statements; everyone has lost sight of the tragic event that has taken place!!! This girl or her children could have contributed and benefited humanity in some profound way!! (Cured Aids, become a political leader, great Canadian poet) and yet we’ll never know now!!! Because here delusional father decided to climb over here frail petit body and wrap is hands around her 13 inch neck and suck every last breathe from her lips!!! All because she wouldn’t where a piece of fabric!!! The prison of cloth…There is no honour in this!! Aqsa don’t worry now, you can where whatever you want!!!

Just a matter of father and son reacting badly to some good natured ribbing at the ol' mosque.

The hijab is the tangible sign of the black straight jacket of Islam.

I guess beheading has fallen out of favour with the "traditionalists".

ouch, I know.....but is there anything different here?

The culture that leads to this. . .

Caution to any starry eyed Canadian / USA young lady charmed by a wealthy Saudi man.
=========== from a Saudi in the UK;

Her husband can marry up to 3 other wives. Yes, in material terms, he must treat them equally. But his affection will obviously not be split 4 ways.

If she is caught herself in adultery, she will be stoned to death. Yes, it happens, it's just not reported these days.

She has equality of education. Like men, she can go to university. However her career choice is limited.

She can work in the Ladies' branch of a bank. She can teach female pupils. That*s about it. She can't even, at the moment, be a flight attendant on Saudi Aiirlines.

If she's very lucky, she can work in the *ladies only* floor of the Kingdom Shopping Center in Riyadh. But she can't work on the perfume counter of a regular shop, or in a lingerie shop; you'll find Lebanese men doing that.

She may well be wealthy in her own right, and own a business. However she can't manage it, if that would bring her into contact with men.

She can't drive. She can of course walk to the shops. Try that wearing black artificial fiber head-to-toe, in temperatures up to 50 celsius. (We men, of course, wear cool white cotton). Drivers are within the reach of many family incomes; but leave them at the door of the shopping center, otherwise you'll both be arrested.

She'll find it difficult to go out *with the girls*. Many restaurants will not allow a group of unaccompanied women in. Same problem by herself. The safest way to get into the *Family* section of a restaurant, is with husband and / or children.

She can of course entertain her lady friends at home. That assumes her husband allows it. Many Saudi homes have bars on the windows, and the women are locked in during the day.

At home, she can do whatever she wants to amuse herself. However, there are clearly few opportunities to fulfil herself. Typically, therefore, she will start a family early. We have one of the highest birth-rates in the world.

If she has domestic problems, there is no network of support groups. Her family may help, it depends. Having got her married with some difficulty, they may be unwilling to take her back again.

The story of women in Saudi Arabia is one of unending tragedy. They are our mothers, our wives, our daughters, yet on the whole we treat them like our cattle. It's a story that needs to change.

muttawa.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_archive.html

================== dated but still applies today.
= TG

I don't think Joe would have like Elijah.

1 Kings 18:25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.

1 Kings 18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

1 Kings 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

1 Kings 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

Reminds me of the reaction to the mocking of mohammad in the cartoons.

It should be noted that Elijah later killed these prophets of Baal who used their own children as sacrifices. Not so very different from this father who sacrificed his daughter on the altar of a dress code. Or Robert Latimer, who sacrificed his daughter on the altar of his own phobia of medical procedures.

Nowadays we don't go around killing these prophets of doom (at least within our own country where the rule of law is available), but we can kill their ideology. One of the ways we can do that is to mock that ideology when it is strategically beneficial.

I appreciate your comments, Joe, but I don't think the postings here display so much hate and loathing as hard headed reality about evil in our midst. (The complicity of moderate Muslims, who remain silent--millions of them, worldwide--is also part of the evil.)

Christianity teaches that evil must be named before it can be redeemed. I think some naming's going on here.

No doubt, Hana would be considered a "moderate". And look at the arrogant exclusion she proclaims, on our dime, with her head held high! The legion of "modest and moderate" Hanas out there are definitely part of the problem. And, with impunity, they're allowed to exploit our tolerance in order to spout their immoderate version of exclusion and intolerance. Then, when we protest, WE'RE called bigots.

No thanks.

And, Joe, I don't believe you should buy into that way of thinking.

Christianity teaches that evil must be named before it can be redeemed.

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

The Phantom: Should some of these so-far-silent "moderate" types stand up and act like men instead of barnyard animals, I will applaud, aid and abet them.

OK, time to put your money where your mouth is. Care to make a donation? Or maybe just start with their list-serv?

ol hoss

I have been naming the evil. The evil is fallen human nature. The case we are discussing in a manifestation of that evil in a family situation where at least some of the guiding principles is equally a manifestation of that same evil called Islam. What I have been trying to get everyone to realize is that "There but for the Grace of God go I". I am no better than the father who killed his daughter so long as I live in the human nature I have been born with. That is not to excuse the father's actions. What he did was evil. His belief system is equally evil. For us to run around making veiled threats and vaunting our virtue is evil. What this man did should spur each and everyone of us to do something about controlling that evil in our midst. The only thing is we can not eliminate evil by engaging in evil. Now who was it who said "do not repay evil with evil rather overcome evil with good"?

BTW Elijah is one of my favourites. I draw particular strength from his hiding in a cave waiting for the voice of God.

my gosh....how everyone has fallen prey to the media once again. Let us remind ourselves, that what we have heard from this case is from a bunch of 16 year old teenagers...do you rememeber being 16? do you remember how you felt that everyone was against you, and that a 16 year old teenager tends to dramtacize everything around them? I am not saying these kids are wrong..but I am saying that we need to understand:

yes, this girl was muslim...but that is not the issue. The issue is that of ABUSE...this man was an abusive father that had abused before and did it again. this time, committing an abhorrent act - an act that I am certain, almost everyone muslim would admit was absoloutely, positively wrong...this man is sick and abusive - that's the bottom line.

whether all of you choose to bring your hatred about islam in this forum...well, that is another story altogether...

Just rememeber that hate will not solve anyhting...

Lori: I know plenty of Muslims who are not a concern to me, and I would welcome them as neighbours and colleagues. I do not "need to get to know them". I already do. Mostly I know them from work, not so much socially, but some of the latter.

I doubt you'd humour me on this, but in the off-chance that you're willing to explore how your attitudes towards Muslims might, however unintentionally, come across as offensive to them, try showing your Muslim work colleagues the following statements, and see what their reactions are (you don't even have to reveal that you're the one who made them; just say you received a spam email or something):

- "Based on what we see and hear, sadly there seems to be no good reason to want to invite Muslims into our midst. What do Canadians get in return? Lawsuits against Macleans Magazine and CAIR-CAN accusing everyone of hate crimes. No sense of gratitude for being permitted, yes permitted, the privilege (yes, the privilege) of coming to this rich and peaceful land. We see women in Darth Vader outfits with eyes only showing, trailing behind their sullen husbands who never smile when they talk."

- "I'll take 1 million Koreans, or Vietnamese, or Poles. Every community has its troubles, but only Muslims seem to make their troubles into the entire society's troubles. And only Muslims seem to so obsessively separate themselves and their children from from the rest of society so as to ensure that the next generation will not be any better."

- "I stand by the Darth Vader statement. It is simply alien in this society to walk around with only eyes (if that) showing. That person makes it loud and clear they want no part of this country and this society. The burka really should be banned."

So, Hana;

How do you feel about a major reformation of Islam?
Specifically to remove the rot that leads to things like the condoned murder of women?
You can't have it both ways.
Either Islam is perfect as it is, and we must therefore all become Islamic and tolerate this crap, or Islam must be reformed at the foundations. I specifically mean changing the Koran to disallow this primitive tribalism for all who follow Islam, not just the backsliders such as yourself.
Remember, most Germans were not supporters of the National Socialist party. The people of the free world did not specifically hate all Germans. But the Germans didn't stop the insanity, and the Germany of the time had to be destroyed.

So how do you feel about some preventive reformation, eh?

made mike, nowhere is the Quran is there an allowance of the "condoned murder of women", as you mentioned.

In fact, in a proper islamic scoiety, women have all of the following rights, and many many more:

In a truly Islamic society women have the following rights in Islam:

1. The right and duty to obtain education.

2. The right to have their own independent property.

3. The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.

4. Equality of reward for equal deeds.

5. The right to express their opinion and be heard.

6. The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.

7. The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.

8. The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him. (pls note that God deeply frowns upon divorce as a solution unless there is hardly any other alternative but it does not mean that men have more right to divorce their wives than women do.)

9. The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).

10. The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.

11. custody of their children after divorce.

12. to refuse any marriage that does not please them

and more...

It was not an honor killing and for God's sake stop calling it an honor killing.

And stop calling it an "Islamic issue". The Quran says: "Let there be no compulsion in religion" [2:256]. Clear words from a book that Muslims must abide by word for word.

So this is NOT an islamic issue. It was a family issue. The guy lost control of himself and committed a horrible crime.

It was a disagreement between father and daughter. Murders like these happen all the time all over the world. Sometimes they happen over money, sometimes they happen over trust, sometimes they happen over respect, but never does the religion of the murderer get blamed unless it is Islam.

Let's be clear about one thing: There is not a single word in Sharia or the Qur'an about honor killings. Murder is murder and the Qur'an makes no distinction. This is not a Muslim thing but a father-daughter thing. It's tragic. And if indeed the father is guilty of this terrible crime, then he must pay for it. But let's not mistake this for some kind of fulfillment of Sharia, because Sharia does not address it.

@Mad Mike:

I agree that reform is necessary, but that it will only come from within Islam. It does not help matters to be unwilling to differentiate the reformers from the hardliners.

Either Islam is perfect as it is, and we must therefore all become Islamic and tolerate this crap, or Islam must be reformed at the foundations. I specifically mean changing the Koran...

You are presuming that only one "Islam" exists, which I think is false. The practise of any religion is relational--that is, between the holy text and the practitioner. Just as there are multiple forms of Christianity based on multiple interpretations of the Bible (e.g., fundamentalists who read the text literally, progressive reformists who re-interpret and adapt passages to modern contexts, etc.), there are already multiple forms of Islam. The sort of Islam practised by, say, people like Zarah above and the sort practised by the late Ms Parvez's father are world's apart. Yet both read the same holy texts.

The Koran is not the problem; certain interpretations, and therefore certain interpreters, are what is in urgent need of reform.

Hana:

Very good.

We agree; except I still think the Koran has to be changed (or maybe "clarified")so that your misinterpretors can clearly no longer "misinterpret".
This is critical.
You note:

"It does not help matters to be unwilling to differentiate the reformers from the hardliners"

I agree. But I am clearly differentiating. It seems the majority of Islam is not, or they would be denouncing the hardliners and calling for change themselves. If reform is to come from within Islam, it better come quick, to avoid catastrophe. To further my historical analogy I'll make a small change to your comment;

"It does not help matters to be unwilling to differentiate the Germans from the Nazis..."

By 1939, it was too late.

"Holy Texts" Batman!!

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

"I allow my "baseline of Muslim public behaviour," as you put it, to be set by my Muslim Canadian friends, and not by the fanatics who act falsely in the name of Islam."

Oh, do you now? Hmm. Yet their own behaviour is based on the teachings, actions and sayings of their prophet as outlined in the Quran, Sira and Hadith.

Ever read these books?

"act falsely in the name of Islam."

The answer is no. You've never read these books, otherwise you wouldn't have made the above statement.

Your opinion, based as it is on knowing a couple of Muslims, is invalid and frankly stupidly ignorant.

Believing that a perverted pedophile, mass-murderer and thief is the perfect man and the one Muslims are commanded to emulate is offensive. And should be offensive to every rational human being in the world.

Islamic propagandists frequently bring out the old chestnut about there being “no compulsion in religion.” As naive Sue has done.

Obviously you're unaware that in the lands conquered by Muslims they offered, as Qur’an and Sunnah tell them to offer, only three possibilities to non-Muslims: death, conversion, or the status of humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity known as that of the “dhimmi.”

Still believe that they believe in "No compulsion?" Well then, how about this:

Ishaq, p. 547, Upon the conquest of Mecca, Abu Sufyan had been captured and brought to Muhammad.

"...he [Muhammad] said [to Abu Sufyan], ‘Isn’t it time that you should recognize that there is no God but Allah?’ He answered, ‘You are dearer to me than father or mother. How great is your clemency, honour, and kindness! By God, I thought that had there been another God with God he would have continued to help me.’ He said: ‘Woe to you, Abu Sufyan, isn’t it time that you should recognize that I am God’s apostle?’ He answered, ‘As to that I still have some doubt.’
I said to him, ‘Submit and testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of God before you lose your head,’ so he did so."

Islamic scholars know that the earlier 'peaceful' part of the Quran was abrogated by the later political and military part. Based on that, Sura 2: 256 has been "abrogated" or replaced by the historically later verse, Sura 9:73: "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them." And other violent verses.

Oh, and BTW, in Mo's own words:

“Whoever changes his religion, kill him.” - Mohammad (Hadith al-Bukhaari, 3017).

Tell me Sue and Hanna, is ignorance as blissful as they say?

"because sharia does not address it." - areeb

Would you like to let us know, oh wise one, how sharia addresses the dhimmi's, gays, adultresses, thiefs, women in general and kaffir?

Now who was it who said "do not repay evil with evil rather overcome evil with good"?

You discipline your children, do you not?

Would you do less for your enemies?

First of all ol hoss, I have never advocated leaving a Muslim a Muslim. I don't advocate leaving a secular humanist a secular humanist or an atheist and atheist. Either you are being playfully obtuse or else I am miss communicating with you. All human beings no matter their live experience or world view need Jesus Christ. Full stop. All human beings despite our overly inflated views of ourselves need to humble ourselves enough to seek forgiveness and new birth. In order to extricate people from a hatefull malicious death cult we need to show love in firmness (good) not merely taunting them with hatefull words and shunning (evil). Yes there is a time for shunning, yes there is time for rebuke but before that can take place we need to establish a commonallity with the desired person or group. The actions of the father in this case are similar to incidents that take place all over the world amongst almost every ir/religious world view. They tend to be more common amongst some religions than others but attacking the religion only serves to alienate and separate. I liken it to a Church service, if every week the preacher gives a hellfire and damnation sermon his congregation soon dwindles. If he proclaims {notice the 'pro' positve) the Gospel (Good News) people respond positively.

I hope the Canadian Human Rights Commission immediately diverts all of its resources from the Mark Steyn case to this one.

(sound of crickets chirping).

i hope your foreign policy applies to inbred scum like robert pickton as well.

oh yeah - don't forget michael briere, paul bernardo, and...goodness, why am i wasting my time on you.

isn't the o'reilly factor starting in a few minutes? don't wanna' miss that now, do ya' buddy?

i hope your foreign policy applies to inbred scum like robert pickton as well.

oh yeah - don't forget michael briere, paul bernardo, and...goodness, why am i wasting my time on you.

isn't the o'reilly factor starting in a few minutes? don't wanna' miss that now, do ya' buddy?

irwin daisy, Good job for pointing out those verses. It makes my task of explaining things much easier. Those verses were revealed in the middle of war, when the Muslims were defending themselves against their oppressors. It would help to pick up a history book for the first time in your life for further reference. The Muslims were not as plentiful as they are today. They were a mere 100 people or even less than that intially when they were being oppressed. When it came time for liberation, war broke out, so these verses refer to only those times of war - not presently. They do not apply today. Since you show great citing abilities, I think you can also point out those verses in the Quran that teach tolerance, love and peace. Islam, after all, means "peace".

does your ideal foreign policy and immigration practices apply exclusively to muslims?

or does it include hindus, christians, jews, and other people of "book" religions?

all it takes is a wiki search to see that violence in the name of religion isn't exclusive to islam.

I liken it to a Church service, if every week the preacher gives a hellfire and damnation sermon his congregation soon dwindles. If he proclaims {notice the 'pro' positve) the Gospel (Good News) people respond positively.

Up to a point. Like Paul said in Hebrews 5, teaching salvation and baptism is the milk. Teaching the meat is what makes one able to discern good and evil. Baby Christians grow up and, if not fed meat, will wither away.

Well ol hoss I have never said that Christians don't need admonition and in fact it was part of my lesson a few weeks ago. However constantly dwelling on the negative is what turned the positive word 'protest' (positive testament) into a negative work meaning to be against something. The reformed Church took the the name Protestant because of its positive connotation. However their constant messaging against established order gave the word a bad name.

Terrence, you had indicated that muslims will never speak out pubclicly about the wrong committed by Aqsa'a father.

Please see below. I am certain that you will come to a different conclusion after reading the following article.

By: Sean Pearce

York Region’s Muslim community is in mourning the death of a Mississauga teen allegedly slain over her refusal to wear the hijab.

Sixteen-year-old Aqsa Parvez died Tuesday, allegedly strangled to death by her father, after refusing to wear the hijab, a head scarf worn by women in some middle-eastern cultures. Newmarket Mosque spokesperson Ansar Ahmed called Ms Parvez’s death a senseless and tragic incident.

“This is the type of tragedy that shakes you to your very core as a person, as a parent and as a Muslim,” he said. “The fact that the wearing of a hijab ... appears to have been the catalyst for this violence is what is so disturbing.”

He also said that if the girl’s death was the result of a dispute over the hijab, the killer’s logic is truly flawed.

“Whether or not a woman prays five times a day or whether she chooses to cover her hair is a voluntary act of worship,” Mr. Ahmed said. “It’s ludicrous for this father to have thought that he could compel his teenage daughter to cover her hair. Acts of faith, whatever they may be, have to come from within; they cannot be imposed on anyone. If they are, they are not true acts of faith.”

Mr. Ahmed urged people of all cultures and religions to look out for one another and, if a friend does seem to be in distress, to help him seek help.

Markham resident Ibrahim Hayani echoed many of Mr. Ahmed’s sentiments.

An overwhelming majority of the Muslim population in the region ia shaken and upset by the tragedy apparently committed under the guise of faith, the Ryerson economics and political science professor said.

In fact, Mr. Hayani said, religion likely had little to do with the incident, contrary to reports in other media.

“When it comes to this incident, it had nothing to do with Islam,” he said. “It’s an insult to Islam to say the religion had anything to do with it.”

Instead, Mr. Hayani said that various cultural customs were likely to blame as many despotic nations twist religion as a method of manipulating their citizens and propping up their often totalitarian and patriarchal regimes.

“The Taliban, for example, was altogether repugnant,” he said. “They were a completely un-Islamic regime.”

When people become so indoctrinated with the rules of the regime, they often start to believe what they’re told, even when truth, is false, Mr. Hayani said. Hence, why someone might so fervently believe that the hijab is required to honour God.

“The entire question of the hijab is a fictitious one,” he said. “A close reading of the Qur’an will tell one that the hijab is not required... There is no such thing as Islamic dress.”

There is, however, such a thing as a cultural dress, Mr. Hayani said, and one will find a great diversity in even the types of hijabs that women wear if they were to travel to Saudi Arabia, Egypt or any other culture that uses them.

During the time of the Prophet, Mr. Hayani said, there was no morality police as there is in some supposedly Islamic states today.

“To reduce an entire faith down to a scrap of cloth is nothing short of an insult to Islam,” he said.

Similarly, in Mr. Hayani’s interpretation, what the father has allegedly done to his daughter is considered perhaps the greatest crime in Islam.

“All of this is anti-Islam,” he said. “There are numerous verses that speak to the relationship of the father and his children. They are verses of mercy and compassion..

“This guy killed his daughter because he didn’t approve of how she dressed? How un-Islamic can you get?”

It is truly a terrible crime, Mr. Hayani said, adding he is certain there was more to it than just a father angry about his daughter’s actions.

It’s regrettable, Mr. Hayani said, that too often when something involving a Muslim occurs that religion is cited as one of the factors, suggesting anxiety, depression or other mental illnesses may have also been factors.

“When it comes to any crime committed by Muslims, I don’t know why the religion comes into it,” he said. “When it comes to any other religion, we would never lay the blame for a crime at the foot of the faith itself.”

Let's all just sit and wait for god, allah, zeus, satan, and the tooth fairy to send some angels (LOL) to deal with all of this. Let's remember to live by our be all and end all universal life guides; the bible and the koran... LOL!! Forget about the justice system, let religious people/organizations, who believe in fairy tales, deal with and debate the murder of a 16 girl in 2007, in a civilized country. LOL... please. Some of you sound so ridiculous quoting the bible, the koran, etc, referencing god, allah, islam, muslims, christianity, etc. Check in with reality. Why don't we all quote Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings or Star Wars?

Are any of you capable of living a fulfilling, happy life without god, allah and religion? If Mr. Parvez could, this most likely would not have happened. What do you get in the kingdom of allah for killing your kid because of clothing? 72 virgins? LOL. Can any of you make moral and ethical decisions without checking with god and allah and relying on a super old books filled with bullshit? Major League Bullshit.

To the younger people on this blog, you know, the typical testosterone-driven 22 year-old muslims and christians... aren't you guys tough and intelligent enough to go about life without your religious, god-worshipping crutch? Yes or no?? Some of you need to told by other, normal humans that there are no gods, no life after death (and I can see it coming: "how do you know this?)... read a real book (biology, astronomy, math, psychology, finances, computers, biographies, etc.).

Hundreds of years ago, say 1400, people had great excuses for there behavior and beliefs in terms of religion.... BECAUSE NONE OF THEM COULD READ... and unexplained events were attributed to gods. Most of us can read. In the middle-east, 75% of males don't know how to read and are uneducated. Sad stuff. This is why it might be easy to convince some poor sap to smash himself in the side of a crowded bus.

People need to understand why we're here. Like all other living things, our goals are to AVOID DEATH AT ALL COST (yes, all humans), PROPAGATE THE SPECIES and AVOID EXTINCTION. No god will save us. "You just have to believe" - nutbar. LOL. Believers have all been fooled and continue to be fooled to this day. This has to stop. It's just us (human species) and nothing else. Why is this so difficult to accept? Surely some of you guys have the fortitude and bravery (lol) to tell allah, jesus, god, zeus, to go screw themselves. LOL... unbelievable. The bottom line, no matter what anyone says here, is that religion is the culprit. Weak. Weak. Weak.

So what are we suppose to do about all this?

(sound of crickets chirping)

"Islam, after all, means "peace"."

No it doesn't. It means submission.

See, taqiyya. Or in other words, blatant lies.

'michael,' obviously a muslim, writes other blantant lies on his posts above. None of which he can support based on his own religions writings.

This is an excellent example of how they work.

Irwin Dasiy, yes, I am a muslim, a convert, in fact. I converted based on my interactions with a number of great muslims at my workplace. I have never regreeted my decision, but feel bad for people like you that choose to take so many of these verses compeletly out of context. I only wish you could see the big picture, my friend. alas, it seems that you are so filled with hatred, that I don't know if that would ever be possible.

btw, in response to your meaning of islam comment - Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema, which means peace, purity, submission and obedience. so yes, islam does mean peace...

Oh, that old canard.

I don't take any verse out of context, I leave that up to the Muslim apologists practicing taqiyya, dissimulation and dualism.

Do you understand the Islamic principal of abrogation?

In actual fact, other than the Mecca and Medina periods, the Quran has no context and makes no sense whatsoever without the Sira and Hadith.

Hatred? I don't feel hatred. Other than towards the ideology of Islam. Understanding, then exposing and criticising Islam for what it is, isn't hatred. Despite what the Quran (read Mo) might warn against. He only did this to preserve Islam from the light of reason - where it whithers and dies. You know, keep the mushrooms in the dark and feed them shit.

Islam means surrender, and/or submission according to every Islamic and Arabic scholar and source I've ever read.

BTW, Allah does not mean God in Arabic. Ilah means God. Allah is the name of the Islamic god. Originally from the old Arabic pantheon of 365 gods. That's why Muslims are always saying Allah is the greatest. Greatest implies other gods. Mo's father's name was Abduallah - after this idol. The Judeo/Christian God is named Yahweh, in case you didn't know. Completely different. Also Jesus' name is not Isa in Arabic. Isa is Esau. Yahshua would be Yesuwa in Arabic.

The Quran is full of this kind of nonsense.

Also, did you know that Mohammad and his followers broke every single one of the ten commandments?

Take the blinders off.

Posted by: joe reality at December 13, 2007 12:50 PM

Typical liberal: no room in his personal belief system for anything larger than himself.

Hey, Brainiac, I'd point out the sheer idiocy of your equating Christians with muslims, but it'd likely fall upon deaf ears.

As for your own "religion" - secular atheism, want to tally up the associated death toll from the 20th century?

Nazi Germany: 56,000,000 dead (all countries combined); 6,000,000+ in the camps

Soviet Union: 30,000,000

China: 80,000,000

It appears that those wacky Christians are mere pikers compared to this lot, eh?

Next time, try breaking the quaalude in half before posting.

mhb23re

Like all other living things, our goals are to AVOID DEATH AT ALL COST (yes, all humans)...

Wouldn't want him watching my back.