As if Michael Yon has a shred of credibility left after his "baked Al-Qaeda" whopper that nobody believed. I mock the poor quality of his propaganda.

As opposed to the high quality propaganda of Al Gore..

Andrew - you are beyond idiot.

Michael Yon has boots on the ground, not holed up in some hotel in Baghdad. Do you also mock the third-hand propaganda of the MSM on Iraq, Andrew?

I know Christians who left Iraq, and when I say 'left' I mean they just got took what money and clothes they could pile in a couple duffle bags and got the hell out, leaving homes and businesses behind to the Muslims. Their priority was staying alive. It's gonna take a lot to get them back there. The specter of a repeat of dhimmitude and outright physical persecution by 'radicals', whom some might say are the actual followers of Islam, is a huge obstacle to their return to Iraq, no matter how great their love for their home land.

Unfortunately, Andrew would rather perhaps return to the 'celebrated ways of rape, pillage and plunder'.

Only people who have no experience of tragedy would say something so obviously to elicit provocation.

Thus when good news arrives it is to be solemnly condemned because it doesn't fit one's preconceived view that Iraq is a permanent disaster.

In short, Andrew is suggesting that Iraq is beyond hope and has resorted to embracing despair.

So Andrew would prefer to curse a few fingers of light in a sea of darkness.

When your 'maturity' returns, be sure to let us all know.

Cheers

You gotta watch your thread titles Kate...I got all elated like about the "nightmare ending" only to se you referring to some endless ME scrap.

To Me, and most SDA readers, the "Nightmare ending" means some populist Ottawa government has repealed Trudeau's Charter and put an end to the Kanuk soviet federation, it's media/intelligencia elitist establishment and its jurocratic kleptocracy junta.....no other "nightmare" elimination compares for true Canadians. ;-)

Perhaps Ms. McMillan is considering a visit now that the war is over.

Have you ever visited a foreign country? (Montanna doesn't count)

Hey Carolyn...where's Montanna?

Spell much?

She may loath all that we are and stand for, but ol Carolyn just can't quit stopping by.

Guess it gives her that moral superiority that the left so crave.

oh carolyn clever clever- no comment ever unless you were there? how about trustworthy honest reporting over time from astute observers who are there? Like Michael Yon? Thank the Almighty that the US led freedom bearers to battered Iraq and are prevailing as citizens gain courage and strike back at their tormenters and continue their hard road to peace and democratic prosperity-and this ancient civilization is worth it for them and for us.

Incredible. Thanks for the link, kate. This is what the Iraq War was about - allowing people to live, together, in freedom. Now, let's see Iran match this! Or Saudi Arabia! These two countries are afraid of freedom to interact, collaborate, and think.

WLMR- there are more nightmares in the world than Canada's homegrown one. I agree with your view of the Charter and Trudeau's socialism, but we, at least, have the power to debate and change our system. The people of the ME and elsewhere, didn't have that freedom.

Mizz progressive Toronto speaks.

"As a Torontonian, it soothes me to know that most of you people live elsewhere."

It would soothe me to know that you commented elsewhere.

"we, at least, have the power to debate and change our system. The people of the ME and elsewhere, didn't have that freedom."

Well that isn;t really true...they can revolt against tyranny and form a democracy like the US France and England...I really don't think it's our job to be the world's teacher or cop...I think these nations would take their right to self determination and duty to effect their own fate more seriously if we just closed the doors to immigration from these craphole nations where liberty democracy or a liberal democratic constitution has never seen the light of day...reallt the only reason we frig around with these pathetic people is they have oil which we have foolishly made ourselves reliant upon.

I think there is always a case for intervening to stop a genocide but I have ideological reservasions about interfering in the civil wars of other nations...thater are far more ways to make undemocratic nations come on stream than getting sicked into every 3rd world fracus under the flimsy excuse of "spreading democracy".

If we mind our own business, concentrate on consolidation our nation's sovereignty, self sufficiency, economic might and free society, we can far more impact than we can trying to immitate the US as the world's policeman.

Let's stay wealthy, free/independent and relatively exclusive and the world will be very accommodating to us trying to find out how we did it and how we can help them do it....I like Switzerland;s approach to freedom liberty and sovereignty...they have influence in the world far in excess of their size and natural resources.

Does anyone else get the impression that Carolyn is just dying to tell us of her multi-county travels - Cuba, Bermuda and, well....well....well.....that's all. Long weekends in both places a few years ago and still boring her friends to death with her glorious adventure tales.

As this nightmare in Iraq ends, it relocates to the presidential campaign in the USA and will have most Democrats waking up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat wondering how things could have gone so wrong.

come on home dhimmi. pay the jyzia. be a fourth class citizen. cover your woman. don't cross any islamic line our you will be headless. what a bunch of delusional ass hats.

what's that , taqiyya.

Well, I think it is great news that things are turning around in Iraq to the point where Muslims are asking their Christian neighbors to come home. I think it is important to note that it was mentioned that the Muslims were worried others would move into the abandoned Christian homes, and perhaps they feared the Christians would then have no homes to come home to....so to speak. From what I have read, all religious groups in Iraq have always got along - it wasn't their religious beliefs that were the problem, but the conduct of certain people. No matter how hard the media tried to encourage a civil war, it never materialized....I guess you can't push Iraqis around.

Andrew believes what he wants; the truth has no bearing.

wlmr - no, I disagree with your isolationist view. The world doesn't exist that way anymore. Maybe two centuries ago, it was possible to live as an isolate, self-sufficient nation-state (not even then, actually), but it doesn't work that way anymore.

Economically, the globe is networked. No nation is self-sufficient in anything. Food, energy, manufactured goods, intellectual capital. Canada, for example, relies on the US to purchase 85% of its export. Imagine if that were stopped; imagine if we didn't export to anyone! And the reverse - imagine our food consumption without the fruits and vegetables from all-year round sunny Florida and California.

No, we haven't let ourselves foolishly be bonded to oil. We moved into using oil as an energy source because it is more productive than coal, wood, wind-machines and solar-machines.

We are all intricately linked, and, like any organic entity, if one part of our network is dysfunctional, it affects us all.

No, the people in military dictatorships cannot rise up and overthrow their dictators. If you think that the ordinary citizen can do so, then, you haven't been aware of what has happened recently in Burma and in Pakistan. You are equally unaware of the vicious repercussions of rebellions in, eg, the Warsaw ghetto in WWII, the rebellions in China, the Soviet Union and so on. These people were all brutally crushed. It has always taken external intervention to end these brutal dictatorships.

There is also something else you are ignoring. That is the duty of one human being to another. How can you close your mind and heart to the sufferings of others? If it were you and your people and nation enslaved, would you hope for help from other human beings? Or would you consider that no such help ought to come, for people are defined, according to you, not by their common humanity, but within the limits of their political passport.

I disagree with you.

So Andrew and Carolyn...are you two like boyfriend, girlfriend? Just checking.

To quote Jack Pallance, Michael Yon craps higher than you two. I love it how the elites plug thier ears and say "la-la-la" when anyone dares to trot out the name "Michael Yon". It's akin to Dracula being shown a necklace of garlic.

While the self serving "journalists" are pampered in downtown Baghdad hotels, paying local teenagers for news tips, or the camera zooming into the same smoke that been rising from the garbage dump for 5 years (one day calling it an IED, the next a coalition aircraft just shot down) Michael Yon is witnessing and reporting the TRUTH.

Oh...am I allowed to use the word 'truth' anymore? Not 'nuanced' enough?

@ Everyone:

Don't feed Andrew the Troll. He's just trolling to make everyone angry.

He doesn't actually know anything. If he knew about Yon, he'd know Yon was the first person to declare back a few years ago that he thought Iraq was entering a Civil War - certainly not good news to America. He doesn't pull punches and doesn't favor any side. He's a real reporter with boots on the ground.

ET, I agree with you, and there is one more thing. Many people naively assume the US is the only power projecting themselves internationally (interfering if you like). It is not the case, nor has it ever been. The most adventurous, imperialistic regime in modern times is the old USSR, who increased the size of their country faster than any other (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia come to mind). China was second. Pakistan's ISI was instrumental in inserting Taliban into power in Afghanistan; and the list goes on and on and on.

Even if US disengages from world, as Clinton tried, it has not and will not prevent attacks on their homeland, nor will it stop China, Pakistan, Iran and yes, Russia, from interfering with other nations' business.

It seems the unipolar world, to some means, only US are bad guys; wrong, there are lots more, as identified above

"LTC Michael told me more than once that the Muslims reached out to him to protect the Christians from al Qaeda. Real Muslims here are quick to say that al Qaeda members are not true Muslims. From charging “rent,” al Qaeda’s harassment escalated to killing Christians, and also Muslims."

Nice to see my half-baked idealism has some merit. Love Yon's work.

Good words, ET. It truly is a miracle to see Iraq's peoples come together more as diverse and tolerant countrymen than fractured and hateful ethnicities. Christmas is coming early.

"wlmr - no, I disagree with your isolationist view. The world doesn't exist that way anymore. Maybe two centuries ago, it was possible to live as an isolate, self-sufficient nation-state (not even then, actually), but it doesn't work that way anymore."

I did not advocate tital isolationism...I used Switzerland as a model...are they isolationist in trade and commerce?

just the same your justification for intevention is the plea of all transnational progressivism...you drink their poison you lose your personal and national sovereignty....and YES the world of power politics DOES exist pretty much the way it was 200 or 500 or 2000 years ago.

There is a time in every patriot's reality when they have to decide what they will defend...

a free constituitional republic/confederation?

an imperial political class and it's ambitions ?

a military/corporate junta and their wars of profit

or a transnational progressive soviet feudalism which claims the right to interfere in every sovereign nation's affairs.

all 4 factions exist in the halls of power in the free west....who will win is a matter of which faction can get the support of the population. The constitutional liberty faction do not use bribery, or false promises to win over patriots, people are urged to come to this realization of their free wills...the other 3 factions use bribery, coercion, and lies to subordinate and control the population into their cause.

If you want to defend the best interests of your nation and it's free people, tou stay armed, vigilent and willing to defend but you only fight when you are directly threatened and you keep a small but capable professional military under the government with a large citizen populated reserve....and a well armed public...liberty and right of individual property are all that are worth killing for in this world...I do not intend to kill or die for the ambitions of imperialists and corporate feudalists.

This system of ethical non intervention worked for Switzerland and the US (until the US republic was partially disassembled by technocrats, political dynasties and international banking cartels)

We always have to remember that Tyranny is the norm...it is the way all governments wnat to take their nation...freedom and constitutited liberty are the anomoly appearing only for brief periods in only a few nations

The answer to 1984 is 1776

I'm more interested in Carolyn fully expanding on her decision to support the side of extremist violence - that is, that she opposes improved stability and peace in Iraq.

Please, Carolyn - the floor is yours.

no, wlmr- I'll continue to disagree with you. I consider your view, frankly, selfish and unethical. Yes, unethical. Because people can't always, on their own, escape a military dictator.

You are ignoring that the USA was not alone in fighting the British in 1776. The French, yes, the French helped. You are also ignoring that the British did not have a full military force in the USA.

A Swiss army???? What the heck does Switzerland have to do with any ability to either protect itself or assist others?

I've given you some comparisons. Recent events in Burma. In Pakistan. Remember the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in 1943? Do you seriously think that all that it takes, is for the repressed people to 'rise up and rebel' against a military dictatorship? You are naive.

And no, the world is not the same as it was 200 years ago.

I think your view, wlmr, of a refusal to help other people in need, is unethical. No, tyranny is not the norm, but when it emerges, we cannot turn our backs and sit on our back porches.

Shamrock - yes, other nations are very active in all parts of the world, both as intrusive and economically.

"To Me, and most SDA readers, the "Nightmare ending" means some populist Ottawa government has repealed Trudeau's Charter...

What is it about the charter that has you and most sda readers living a nightmare, redux? Fundamental freedoms? Democratic rights, perhaps? Legal rights, Mobility rights? What?

Ummmmmm.....democracies allow you to own PERSONAL PROPERTY,manny. Such as a HOUSE and LAND,which our scrap of paper doesn't. Yes we have mobility rights,always have. Legal Rights? You mean like the right of the cops to search and seize without a warrant,providing it is a gun offense? That's quite democractic. To allow a minority of 5% to over-right the rights of 95%? Yup. REAL democracy there. Gotta love the Utopian dream.

"Fundamental freedoms? Democratic rights, perhaps? Legal rights, Mobility rights? What?"

Are you actually sufficiently ignorant to think Canadians didn't have these rights before the Charter? All the Charter did was provide a section to limit them at the whim of a judge.

Did you read the Post today Page A11 where a 19 year old Saudi women who was gang raped by 4 men got 200 lashes.

Initially the penalty was a paultry 90 lashes but the fair (Sharia) law ordered it doubled because she had the audacicity to complain. The judges decided to punish her further for "her attempt to aggravate and influenze the judiciary through the media"

Makes you wonder why Jack Layton and the NDP condon this by supporting these tribal states. He thinks that our Canadian armed forces should be restricted to dressing up in army fatigues handing out food hampers and chocolate.

Where is the leftist womens's movement on this...They're pretty quiet maybe because they don't believe in trying to correct a system that systemically discriminates and persecutes women...

Makes you wonder about the double standard.

SQUAWK SQUAWK It looks like not all mulims are listening to those radicals and AL GORE thats good SQUAWK SQUAWK SQUAWK

Mizz progressive Toronto speaks.

"As a Torontonian, it soothes me to know that most of you people live elsewhere."

It would soothe me to know that you commented elsewhere.

That's all fine and dandy, but then tell me this:

Apparently the Conservatives are not winning over the womens vote in Ontario, Ive heard that there's nothing in the throne speach for the "Soccer Mom" why wont you eastern losers leave us out west hear alone.

Tax breaks, crime prevention and protecting human rights in Afghanistan are not "womans issues" in Ontario.

We too are happy that you are over there, we just wish you T.O. elitist would mind your own buisness and leave the rest of us alone.

Baghdad is a hell of a place to be a Christian.

Why would anyone come back? To give the muslums, sunni and shia, a common second class citizen they could both demean and maltreat? Iraq is not going to become Disneyland because they stop killing each other with such fervor as of late. They will always be slaves of Allah first.

Having been married to an Iraqi-Canadian and having produced two beautiful half-Iraqi children, and having met many Iraqis and other Arabs, let me say that Michael Yon's posting is the perfect reflection of most of those Iraqi/Arab Muslims that I have met. Anyone who has a blog and who supports democracy in Iraq should be furiously adding a link to Yon's post. This needs to get out to the world, the MSM be damned.

BL@KBIRD,

I hear you. Though, I do believe that there are many Muslims who don't understand their own religion with regards to the foundational violence found in the texts. Most don't read or write Arabic either.

I think, if given the opportunity; if rightful criticism of Islam based on facts continues to be spread; if they are made to feel shame; and were assured of not being killed for apostacy - many would drop the ridiculous belief alltogether.

Rather than hope, fear holds it together.

Support for this line of thought is in the conversion ratios of Muslim to Christian, or to agnostic/athiest, throughout the world.

As with most Islamic claims (ie. CAIR's claim that there are 7 million muslims in America, when PEW shows 2.3), it's a myth that Islam is the fastest growing religion. Quite the opposite is true.

ID - there are many Muslims who don't understand their own religion with regards to the foundational violence found in the texts.

I find it very bizarre that you consider yourself more of an expert on Islam than its own adherents. Ironically, you use the same completely flawed reasoning as the Jihadists to come to your conclusions. Violence is no more foundational to Islam than it is to Christianity. The only people who believe otherwise are al-Qaeda, Wahhabis and a core group of Islam haters.

it's a myth that Islam is the fastest growing religion

Where did you get this information? Any stats to back it up?

Don't you guys (ID and BL@CKBIRD) every get tired of trying to turn all Muslims into the enemy? If you want to proselytize that's fine, but seeking to demonize Islam will just drive more moderate Muslims into the camp of the radicals.

Oh oh!

As usual, you're full of crap, belisarius.

All I have to say is compare the life, works and teaching of Islams founder, Mohammad, to that of Christ.

Anybody can do that.

Muslim's claim that their growth rate is 235 percent and 47 percent for Christianity. This statistic came from the Readers Digest Almanac and Yearbook 1983, and represents 235 percent increase over 50 years. Muslims always leave off the 50 year fact to make it appear they are going 235% every year. A simple review of the readers Digest study shows that the growth rate of Islam vs. Christianity is directly linked to the birth rate in Third World countries where Islam dominates and not actual conversions to each religion.

In 1900 less than 10 percent of Africa was Christian. Now it's around 50 percent. That's an increase from 10 million Christians in 1900 to more than 350 million today. The story is pretty much the same in Asia. China now has an underground church numbering in the tens of millions. In Korea, Christians outnumber Buddhists and, in a remarkable historical reversal, now send missionaries to Europe to convert the natives.

For your perusal, the latest statistics can be found in David A. Barrett’s huge two volume, "World Christian Encyclopedia" a bit more credible than a 1983 almanac from Reader's Digest.

As it stands, Islam is about the size of the Catholic church. Protestants, led by the Pentecostal church are showing the largest growth, throughout the world. But particularly in Africa and Asia.

The actual 'fastest growing religions' are paganism, falun gong and maybe, mormonism and scientology.

As usual, and as I stated prior, Muslims tend to grossly exagerate everything. It's the nature of their insecurity.

You, however, are either a Muslim, or an apologist. The question is why?

BTW, your retort "but seeking to demonize Islam will just drive more moderate Muslims into the camp of the radicals."

Who says? Do you have stats to back that up?

Defeatism never won anything that I can recall.

And of course Iraqi Muslims want the Christians and probably even the Jews back.

They're the only ones who knew how stuff worked.

Belisarius here is some information passed on to me by the person telling the story. The scars on his body would indicate he is telling the truth.

An ex-Muslim now Christian explained that the best thing that ever happened to him was Ayatollah Khomeini coming to power in Iran. This fellow explained that being Muslim up until then was kind of like being Iranian. It was just a part of his heritage. Once he had to engage in Islamic ritual like praying in Arabic 5 times a day. Arabic being a foreign language. After a time he began to question the veracity of the Islamic religio. He sought answers elsewhere and discovered Christianity. After his conversion he was severely tortured and finally fled the country after being told that if he did not leave the rest of his family would suffer consequences like torture or death.

ID - All I have to say is compare the life, works and teaching of Islams founder, Mohammad, to that of Christ. Anybody can do that.

Done. But unlike you, I've actually bothered to read material from Muslim writers and scholars in addition to Spencer, et al. I suggest you do the same. At the very least you would find out why most Muslims would disagree with you vehemently. I know you won't bother, though. You're having too much fun on your little one-man blog Crusade.

ID - And of course Iraqi Muslims want the Christians and probably even the Jews back. They're the only ones who knew how stuff worked.

Even you can't seriously believe that.

the latest statistics can be found in David A. Barrett’s huge two volume, "World Christian Encyclopedia"

That cannot be considered a reliable, unbiased source. Try again.

Interesting story, Joe. Muslim countries practicing Medieval sharia need to ditch it and join the 21st century. Most already have, which pisses off al-Qaeda, the Taliban and Wahhabis to no end. At the equivalent point in its history, Christianity was still burning thousands of live heretics at the stake, so there is hope yet for Islam to reform.

Belisarius

A dope fiend friend of mine wants to know what you are on. He thinks they must be pretty good stuff.

The point I was making was in conjunction with Irwin Daisy. Most Muslims do not know what their religion teaches just like most people who grew up in the United Church don't understand even the most basic elements of Christianity.

BANGLIDESH got hit by a real bad storm and so some greedy trial lawyer will want to sue some american industry claiming this GLOBAL WARMING poppycock bull poo and AL GORE will blame this on GLOBAL WARMING and the GOP and GREENPEACE will do the same becuase GREENPEACE are a whole bunch of blabbering fools

Let's stay wealthy, free/independent and relatively exclusive and the world will be very accommodating to us trying to find out how we did it and how we can help them do it

Nice statement, WLMR. I've been thinking the same thing for a while now.

Hey Joe, I've been smokin' the truth. You should try it some time.

Belisarius

I hope you enjoy your 'truth'. I hope you don't mind too much if I don't indulge.

RL at November 16, 2007 4:55 PM:

Where is the leftist womens's movement on this

I've often wondered about this myself. Is it maybe because they are relatively pampered leftists confident about challenging "the enemy" as long as "the enemy" is a construct of their own narrative and not a real life bad guy?

Where's the global sisterhood that would make everywhere a better place "if only women ruled the world"?

Are they waiting for Hillary or does the "unpleasantness" happening to women far away not concern them too much?

So many questions...

Odd.

I asked you two questions. You didn't answer either of them.

"Done. But unlike you, I've actually bothered to read material from Muslim writers and scholars in addition to Spencer, et al"

All you have to do, as I mentioned, is read Mo's words.

"And of course Iraqi Muslims want the Christians and probably even the Jews back. They're the only ones who knew how stuff worked.

Even you can't seriously believe that."

Who cares what I believe. History believes it.

"That cannot be considered a reliable, unbiased source. Try again."

Why not? Have you read it? Can you find a more credible source?

"At the equivalent point in its history, Christianity was still burning thousands of live heretics at the stake, so there is hope yet for Islam to reform."

That's a bogus argument. We're all living in 2007 right now aren't we?

Seems with your ad hominems and vindictiveness you're a little perturbed there belisarius. Moslem, or apologist?

Furthermore, where in the NT does it say to burn heretics at the stake?

A Cdn. from the Cdn Bible belt (Sask.) has been there behind the scenes for quite a while and this is right on course. Now the Iraqi Christians who have to worship in small cell groups can come out in the open and worship freely. That freedom of religion is written in the Constitution so we'll see if it stands the test of time.
But, this is certainly a good sign.
God bless them!

Louise*s short comment at 7:12 is valuable..

ET and WLMR debate is refreshing.. Couldn*t help but think a decent United Nations that worked properly would decide when we should step in and stop ethnic cleansing and genocide.

Belasarious.. Google **Winston Churchill Muslim** in quotes and check the truth 85 years before today*s ME situation.. = TG