Cjunk, I haven't seen this edition of Monty Python's "Spot the Loony" in years!

Don't ever let anyone say that Ze Germans have lost the ability to produce fantastic propaganda!

Scratch the word "edition", insert the word "sketch".

There, I feel better now.

A story from Cjunk's "source"...

Dara Shukoh: Chechnya is a leader of Jihad in the Muslim World!
"Chechnya has been the glorious example of Jihad in the Muslim world. The Chechenian history itself ..."

How exciting!

Those whispering tones in the docu-voice tell us in such subtle tones how brave they were to sneak past the Bibles at the door and spy on these violent, scary people.

Did anyone hear about the Salvation Army Minister killed in Pakistan this week?
Didn't think so...

I had no idea that Germans were so fuking stupid....

"I had no idea that Germans were so fuking stupid...."

they fell for Herr Hitler & Goebbels so nobody should be surprised they'll lap up this stuff.

The Russians are re-arming. The Germans & French will come boot licking when the Ruskies start marching west.

Seriously though, a good bible thumping is just about as dangerous as a WMD ... these journos were lucky to survive. Have you ever seen the size of a large print for seniors leather bound King James ... you'd need full body armour to ward it off.

Ze fanatical Christianist martyrs. The victims rather than the perpetrators. Hows that for a screwed up definition? Oh, and armed with millions of tons of propoganda, rather than what, dynamite?

But this hardly tops what somebody was claiming on a thread yesterday - The Nazis were actually a Christian military regime. Based on this assertion, he was able to further claim that therefore Christians killed more people during the 20th century than muslims. And this comment came from a regular poster.

The war against stupid is getting dangerous.

Oh yes, the Missionaries ---- foot soldiers in the religious wars. Some of the "best" wars the world has seen. Religions of peace n' all that.

Yeah Paul2 but no one uses the KJV anymore some silly idea about the language of the people or something.

That doesn't mean that the Bible insn't dangerous after all the writer of Hebrews says that "The word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart".

Sounds like a dangerous weapon, no?

irwin daisy: I too was stunned by that stupidity (Nazis being Christians). The flip side of this stupidity is that Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao murdered because they were atheists. Myself, I think, radical Germans murdered because they wore brown shirts.

Kudos on your excellent posts on the other thread about Islam. I consider you the best-informed poster at sda on this subject. AND, I have and have read the Karsh book: Islamic Imperialism as well as his Empires of the Sand, which fatally undermines the default apologia that western imperial meddling is the cause of all the problems.

Question for you: Belisaurius tells me that "abrogation" is just a theory, that muslims don't "believe it". What say you? It's a very important issue I think if we are to get the Islam is War argument to stick.

Wow. We can only hope it's true. The faster we convert those barbarians to our civilized religion, the better off the world will be. Imagine if there was n Islamin the world and try not to smile. Does anoyone know how I can donate to this cause.

What a hateful propaganda piece.

Except that it's not at all funny--in fact, I find its bigotry and lies blasphemous--it reminds me of Joe Flaherty's fictitious SCTV "blood sucking monkeys from Buffalo". ("Be scared. . . be REALLY scared!")

"Mass (sic) in Broken Arrow" at a "Baptits [sic]" church: what a joke! The makers of this "Tokyo Rose" garbage are not only dangerous: they’re colossal ignoramuses and idiots, to boot.

These Christian missionaries are SO scary: they help out, they bring much needed resources, they teach about the love of Jesus. (The Iraqis’ lives are already in danger and, heaven forbid, they should exercise freedom of choice!) And, yes, conflict is part of being a Christian--like part of even the most loving family, where truth doesn't always mean peace--but these missionaries aren't openly and brutally murdering Iraqis in huge numbers, in cold blood, like the jihadists are. But, boy ARE these Americans scary: no mention at all of the brutality of Muslim "missionaries", whose MANDATE has nothing to do with “Love thy neighbour as thyself”, but is to MURDER the infidel--on his/her own soil (9/11, etc.), if possible. (How about murdering their fellow MUSLIMS in their own homes and neighbourhoods?)

The complete lack of context and balance in this piece altogether undermines what shred of credibility it may have imagined for itself. It's eminently clear that this shoddy excuse for journalism is simply a juvenile smear, with not even a nod to being either factual or fair. (I don't watch CBC, so don't know if this has been aired there, but it's just the kind of dangerous idiocy they'd lionize: maybe Avi Lewis could show it on his show and then defend it. Wouldn’t that be fun?)

ID - But this hardly tops what somebody was claiming on a thread yesterday - The Nazis were actually a Christian military regime.

Seriously ID, you need to improve your reading comprehension. That isn't what I posted at all. I suggest you go back and read it again. I'm beginning to understand why you misinterpret so much of Islam.

I am right though, people who considered themselves Christian killed more people than Muslims in the 20th century - a lot more. Were their actions in keeping with Christian belief? Absolutely not.

INP, thanks. I'm laughing!

Ah, you don't like it, do you, germs?
Holy war against Islam - you don't like it?
In your face! Live with it. The world is not a game into one net anymore.

Todos:
1. Down with UN.
2. Down with UN, control shot.

Yes I believe Christians have always played a missionary role in this world. They come with bibles, but also food, medicine, tools and knowledge of how to teach the locals to prosper and have a better life. If they also choose to read a bible, fine, if not fine too. The important message I get from Christianity is simple ... be good not bad. It's that simple.

What is it the Islamic missionaries (Jihadists) do ... oh yes now I remember ... they blow people up.

"That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteouness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10: 9-10

Christians believe with their heart and scripture mentions this numerous times in the Bible. Those who do not believe in Christ are doomed to be punished when they are judged by Christ, not doomed to be slaughtered at the hands of a dull knife-wielding ingrate Islam nutjob who believes he/she has the right to judge another human being.

The perfect collaboration of lunacy, Chechen terrorists and anti-American Germans. Finally, an American secret plot they both can wrap their combined bird brains around.

Europe is dead, folks.

Great video, we need more truth like this. Why go to the bother of blowing yourself up for your cause when you have the US military to do your dirty work for you.

Re -"Paul2 at October 8, 2007 12:03 PM"

"Seriously though, a good bible thumping is just about as dangerous as a WMD..."
Never forget the only ones with the WMD in Iraq are the invaders.

BTW. It was about the oil, Christian domination is just a side benefit of their occupation.

Belisaurius said:
I am right though, people who considered themselves Christian killed more people than Muslims in the 20th century - a lot more. Were their actions in keeping with Christian belief? Absolutely not.

I'm inferring here, that in the full bloom of moral equivalency, Belisaurius is trying to argue that Muslims are not killing in Islam's name. What utter foolishness. That is simply wrong. All four schools of muslim jurisprudence call a spade a spade on jihad, as in, it ain't joga Belisaurius. And again, the late Koran suras of Medina abrogate the earlier Meccan suras. Muhammed changed his mind and lo and behold new revelations from Allah (Mo's alter ego!) arrived in the nick of time to confirm.

And again, read Khomenei's quote on Jihad I posted elsewhere. He spit on Belisaurius' kind of western liberal cognitive egocentrism.

I think for any German to comment on religion and war takes a lot of balls.

The flip side of this stupidity is that Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao murdered because they were atheists.

Me No Dhimmi, I pointed out several times that the 20th centuries greatest butchers [Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and you can throw in Hitler] were atheists. These genocidal despots did not murder because they were atheists; they were murderous tyrants who acknowledged themselves as atheists.

MND - Belisaurius [sic] is trying to argue that Muslims are not killing in Islam's name

I'm inferring nothing of the sort. Muslim radicals are doing just exactly that. Religion just happens to be their excuse. My point is that mass killing is not the exclusive domain of Muslim radicals. It's a tragic, human practice that has reared its ugly head time and again.

I don't condemn all Christians for what the Germans did and I don't condemn all Muslims for the actions of the Jihadis either.

Trent, you're right about half, but only half of your statement.

Oh, if you're talking about the majority of Germans, you're right, but there's a silent minority you may not be aware of: devout Christians.

For example, in WW2, Germany, the perpetuator of horrific massacres of Jews and others, was also the European Axis/occupied European country where the largest number of Jews as a percentage of the population survived.

Why?

The brave work of the German baptist church among others, mostly among other Christians. So it's a mixed bag. But, yes, most Germans are politically stupid and prone to believing crazy anti-American propoganda in my experience.

centuries = century's

I'm with INP - where can I donate to this cause?

Those Christians - how awful, bringing Bibles with their humanitarian aid (channelling albatros). this sounds like CNN's God's Christian warriars.

there is no equivalence between Islam and Christianity. Christianity kept the Torah and expanded on it. Islam re-worked the Torah, Gospels, Talmud mixing up characters and events and then said that the Christians and Jews lied in their books. The more Muslims that read the Old and New Testaments, the better.

you might not know this, but observant Jews say this prayer 3 times a day:
For Thine is the kingdom, and to all eternity Thou wilt reign in glory, as it is written in Thy Torah: 'The Lord shall reign forever and aye.' And it is also said: 'And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; on that day the Lord shall be One and His name be One.'"

as I said to lookout on a previous post, it is thanks to Jesus and Paul that the whole world reads Psalms, Proverbs, Exodus, the Book of Esther, and all the books of the Tanach (Old testament)

happy Thanksgiving to all SDA readers (you too ET - that calling your analysis Marxist really got to you eh?0

Me No Dhimmi,

It's either abrogated, or dualistic. Where there is a peaceful, rational verse earlier in the Quran an opposing violent verse is found later. Either way it's equally deceiptful. But then Mohammad said himself that "war is deceipt."

Without this concept there would be no taqiyya or kitman, which the Muslims use to their advantage in conducting passive jihad, or cultural war against its enemies. Imams often say one thing to the infidels, while preaching the opposite to their congregations. This was recently proven again with the Muslim appointee to the Virginia immigration panel.

If you notice, other than his patently absurd claims, Belisarius makes claims offering no evidence, or facts:

"MND, abrogation truly is only a theory, and as I mentioned not widely believed. Muslims would be shocked at any suggestion that verses contradict or replace each other." -Belisarius

That's his m/o, at least on this subject.

He also 'feels' that:

"Most Muslims in Canada appreciate it and have no desire for Shariah."

When, actually:

According to the last CBC poll, 53% of Muslims want to see some form of shariah adopted in Canada.

Morally equating Christianity with Islam is not only absurd, it's fundamentally false.

Violence is foundational to Islam. This is proven in its commands and rewards in the Quran. It is also proven in its command for all Muslims to emulate Mohammads life, the perfect example.

This is not true of either the NT, or Christ's life example.

When questioned to disprove this, Belisarius has repeatedly demonstrated that he cannot. Further, he makes the absurd claim that the Nazi military regime was Christian. This assertion, together with who knows what other diabolical Christian regimes, leads him to claim that Christians killed more people than Muslims in the 20th century.

The main problem with mounting a successful counter jihad against Islam is defining exactly what the problem is.

Morally equating the foundational ideology of Islam with Christianity is not only untrue, it's irrelevant and harmful. By definition, calling Islam a 'religion of peace,' is equally harmful. As is the 'war on terror.'

Islam must be properly understood and defined in order to either be defeated, or reformed. The truth is an ongoing casualty in this war, perpetrated by people like Belisarius.

ID - Islam must be properly understood and defined in order to either be defeated, or reformed.

I agree with you there, although there is obviously a very wide gulf in how we view Islam. I don't believe that Islam as a whole needs to be defeated, although it clearly is in need of reform. Radical Islam, on the other hand, does need to be defeated.

I outlined my views on how this can be accomplished in the previous thread, ID. Let's hear yours.

ex-liberal wrote, "as I said to lookout on a previous post, it is thanks to Jesus and Paul that the whole world reads Psalms, Proverbs, Exodus, the Book of Esther, and all the books of the Tanach (Old testament)".

Thanks for that ex-l, you're right on here. And I thank God for Jesus and his amazing apostle, Paul, who spread the light of the Word to the gentiles.

The Psalms are very precious to me: wise, beautiful, sometimes fierce pictures of the human soul. Yes, Jews and Christians share a divine heritage: truth, justice, and mercy are revered. It seems that these virtues are optional in Islam.

IMO, the attempts by some here to equate Christianity with Islam are, at the least, misguided.

Allow me to reveal myself to my fellow SDA fans. I'm a Baptist missionary in Mexico City. All this time I thought I was doing good, planting churches, running a camp for poor kids in this city supported by churches little prairie churches in Canada. I've been exposed...I'm working for the US govenrment with their direct blessing. It's a holy war in Mexico!!!
Could this be considered yellow journalism?
http://mexicomitchells.blogspot.com

I figured it out...Harry Truman...The US president that oversaw the invation of Germany during WW2, was a Southern Baptist. There are still some bitter Germans in Das Keggerland.

The makers of that documentary appeared to be unaware that this kind of activity has been going on for 2000 years...it didn't start in the U.S.A.

Much more to be thankful for today; a rich exchange from Bible believers using the freedom of the internet, and the pronouncement of God's word.
And that a docu-dramas from Germany(or was it Holland) can instigates these discussions.
Is. 55:11

'Biff,

I enjoyed that little entry about Bimbo the bread company. I have a Santos shirt with Bimbo advertised on it. I also have Tigres, Chivas, and I'm wearing my Cruz Azul shirt at this very moment (it's 30 in T.O. today and I find footy shirts to be best when it's this warm).

September 13, 2001 9:05 a.m.

Ann Coulter writes, people listen.

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

From time to time I still encounter people who are so misinformed that they either believe the Nazis were Christian or at least believe the Nazis claimed to be Christians while behaving in a manner contrary to Christian practice. There are several sources that clearly deomonstrate that the Nazis were not only not Christian but were also strongly anti-Christian.

One source is listed below. It is a 1943 video about 52 minutes long: all of it is worth watching. However, the items of interest may be viewed from about 12:30-18:30 . Around 12:30 it begins to document the enemies of interest to the fascists. At 15:20, the churches are mentioned. Throughout the history of Christianity, churches and their practices have been criticized from time to time. However, the blasphemy stated in 17:15-17:35 can only be attributed to an anti-Christian. This is certainly not a Christian by any measure. These statements should settle the issue for those interested in original sources.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2906105120123049935

Brent, you can't be serious. Your source is the American 1943 propaganda piece "why we fight"?

Let's cut to the chase here. The holocaust was committed by Germans. Germans were Christians. Therefore, the perpetrators of the holocaust were Christians. End of story.

Christians are just as capable of atrocity as anybody else. Look at Bosnia in the 1990's. At least 100,000 Bosnian Muslims were murdered by Serbian Christians (and possibly as many as 300,000). The massacre of the 8000 inhabitants of Srebrenica is the best known incident of this war. The killing didn't stop until NATO intervened.

Let's stop trying to pretend that Christians aren't capable of horror. We are.

I don't know, can't a "missionary" help with volunteer work without throwing bibles around? Do you have to wear your religion on your sleeve to do good? I'm not belittling their work, but I think selling religion does. Oh, and the German expose was stupid.

Being an atheist, I find this debate on the merits of different religions quite amusing. But I do know a few things that are irrefutable facts.

1. Christian leaders counsel to reach out, convert and love. Muslim leaders counsel to kill, detonate, lie and beat their women.

2. My father-in-law was forced as a child into the Hitler Youth. He said that the churches fought the nazis every step of the way. Unless you were there, one has no way of knowing what really happened. My father-in-law was there, (he is sitting here reading this crap with me)and he wants the moonbat to know that he is an ignorant idiot.

To every single poster(Belisarius, Cal, albatros39a) pointing a finger at Christianity I have one thing to say to you: I don't believe you.

According to your logic, you obviously live in a murderous "Chrsitian Regime" at this very moment and until you begin posting comments from Saudi Arabia or Iran AGAINST Islam, all you are doing is blowing hot air out of your bung-holes.

Doug,

What precisely have I posted that you don't believe? Please explain.

Kingstonlad - Unless you were there, one has no way of knowing what really happened.

Not true. The holocaust is the best documented mass murder in history, with mountains of evidence.

I worked on a Church plant for the German Baptist Church AKA North American Baptist but we didn’t seek permission from Chancellor Helmut Kohl. At another time I worked on a Southern Baptist Church plant but I didn’t ask permission from Bill Clinton. I don’t think Helmut or Bill knew I was planting churches or for that matter cared.

As for those who are debating with the disingenuous moral equivalency advocates, the historically challenged who can't understand that the Nazis were not Christian, the intellectually lazy who debase enduring faith with Marxist analysis or the rabid secular humanist/socialist remember the words of Jeremiah and St Paul.
“If you have raced with men on foot and they have worn you out, how can you compete with horses? If you stumble in safe country, how will you manage in the thickets by the Jordan?”
“For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”

By allowing the moral equivalency, intellectually bankrupt/dishonest, socialist crowd to dominate and determine our societal norms we sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. The stalk has no head; it will produce no flour. Were it to yield grain, foreigners would swallow it up. (Hosea)

Islam at its core is a nasty religion, of that there can be no debate but much of their aggression toward the west is in response to our hedonistic, narcissistic culture. Islam would still seek to reform the west but were Judeo – Christianity at the fore we would have a more focused defence against this aggression. We could understand what it is that is attacking us and have the weapons needed to win this war.

Call it what you will Religion = Cult.
It continues to amaze me that people of a free world who claim to have an open society along with the freedom of speech and thought, subscribe to crazy ideologies that dictate how they will live life and force it on others.
As the video personality stated

“Our activities can lead to people dying, we are aware of that. But to spend eternity in heaven and not in hell – seems like a good deal”.

What gives this idiot the right to decide that for you or me? How truly would he know what’s good or right for anyone? No different than some minion of Caesar sacrificing your young daughter to Zeus or Apollo for a fertile crop year.
It’s very scary when religious cults like Islam utilize human weapons to enforce their will on others. It reaches another level when the same fundamentalism packaged in new wrappings, is backed with a modern army.
For all the good “some” religions do in this world, protecting the weak & allowing security for the weak of mind, far more suffering and death will be dealt out at the hand of others righteousness. It will be interesting to know in the future {hypothetically} if Christianity wins over Islam, and of course the other religions (Remember over billion communist Chinese with their own blooming modern army), which Christian sects then turn on each other? Much like the bloody Sunni verses Shiite tantrums; will it be Baptist against Catholic, Jehovah against Lutheran or Mormon against Anglican? Guaranteed there will be bloodshed, it’s simply a matter of who has the support of the government at that time. Yea, yea I know “our religions have evolved passed all that” sure until things aren’t going your way, or all the obvious opponents to your ideals are defeated so you find less obvious antagonists to scare your flock!
Keep church and state separate, or your grandchildren will be living with Sharia law in the West!

This video would be funny, if it were not for the millions of people who watch this sort of stuff and think it's the truth. I'm sure it appeals to Europeans who have long since given up the idea that anyone could have a religion that is an important part of their life.

I'm about half-way through reading Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History. The fuzzy-minded among us see no difference between a Christian martyr and an extremist jihadi. But the martyr is one who dies rather than denying the faith, rather than someone who kills to spread the faith.

Sorta to be expected. Watched a very good documentary the other day about a concentration camp survivor returning to Germany for the first time.

He visited one school to talk to the kids and one of the comments from the kids was basically that there is no differenc between what the Nazis did and the US involvement in Vietnam.

Joe - ...the Nazis were not Christian...

That is a load of apologist BS. And who said anything about Nazis? The GERMANS carried out the holocaust. The Nazis were the political party in power, widely supported by the population. It's the same sort of crap German burgermeisters tried to pull after German's defeat, when confronted about the neighbourhood extermination camp. "Oh, we didn't know." Total crap.

sorry dude. You may have a body count, you may know the names of the murderer's. But no way on earth do you know the individual effort of pastors, priests and rabbis in trying to prevent the holocaust. The holocaust was not done in the name of God. Islamowhackjobs homicide bombing innocent civilians is done in the name of God.

You moonbats will just not acknowledge facts, eh?

Belisarius (amused you'd used a sic after my misspelling your handle!):

Let's try again: First of all, I've never said "all muslims" desire subjugation and/or murder of infidels. Ever. Look, if you'll pardon some Jewish vernacular, most of the population are schumcks. Most know nothing about their religion, Christians and Muslims alike.
Here's what I mean: There's no moderate Islam, radical Islam. Only Islam practiced or lapsed (very very quietly of course). Do you understand Islam better than Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

Muslims are either devout Muslims or cultural Muslims only, like I'm a cultural Catholic Christian atheist. If I lose it some day and lead a militia against CAIR in Washington, it won't be because I'm a Christian [note to Big Brother: kidding of course].

The crux of the matter is this: Is the killing done with support from holy text? Phrased this way, you're totally crazy to try and equate Nazi mass murder with Muslim mass-murder. In the latter case they site dozens and dozens and dozens of passages from the Koran which, repeating, abrogate any earlier peaceful passages.

What sacred text did the Nazis cite to justify their mass murder of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and weaklings?

Just how do you, blame the Christians types, define a Christian country? Germany was hardly Christian at the time with a tremendous rise in the philosophies of Friedrich Nietzsche and other anthrocentric philosophies. Can we really say Canada is a Christian nation just because 80% of the country feels something favorable of Jesus Christ when polled and much lower percentage attend or adhear to the doctrines of a church. There seems to be moral vacuum in the country that is counter to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Though the many liberal state churches and seminaries joined with the Nazi's one cannot ignore that many other churhes fought valiantly against the regiem. Consider one of my heros,Dietrich Bonheoffer. His mentors Martin Niemoller and Karl Barth. The many pastors and seminaries that went underground for fear of being exposed as being against Nazi's because they refused to worship Hitler's image. My own family was Christian Reformed and was involved in the Dutch underground sabatoging the evil of the Nazi's. How do you explain the actions of a Corrie Ten Boom that hid many Jews from the concentration camps at a tremdous cost to there own lives. Nothing the Nazi's did was in the name of Christ but in the name of Adolph Hitler. Hence, the difference between Christianity and Islam. The Christian advances a true message of peace, not by the edge of a sword but by the Word of God. The Christian preaches grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. such a message will always conflict with states and philosophies that want the undivided loyalty of it's people. The Bible says through the apostle Paul..."the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ." 2 Cor. 10: 4-5
In other words anyone that may try to advance Christianity by the sword is no Christian because they are not obeying Christ. The Kingdom of God advances one convicted heart at a time.

Kingstonlad - Islamowhackjobs homicide bombing innocent civilians is done in the name of God.

So what? It's just an excuse. For Germans it was twisted racial theory. But thanks at least for acknowledging my original point - Christians killed far more people than Muslims in the 20th century.

The point of all this? People don't need their religion for an excuse to start killing each other. And just because your religion preaches against killing doesn't mean you won't.

When, as a nominal Christian, you participate in mass murder, you are not acting as a Christian (no sacred text supports your behaviour). When Islamofascists mass-murder they are acting as very devout Muslims and they have all the late Medina "sword" verses to support them. The Koran counsels subjugation and/or mass murder of infidels.

Belisarius, you're must playing with semantics here.

Joe...I'm also an NAB church planter. Where did you plant?
Drop a line
http://mexicomitchells.blogspot.com

I have some vey good news!

Just heard, that effective Nov 1 the White House is going to change the cliche phrase "Islam is one of the world's great religions" TO "Islam as "one of the world's BIG religions".

Correction:
you're totally crazy to try and equate Nazi mass murder with Muslim mass-murder

should have read Islamic mass-murder.

There's no moderate Islam, radical Islam. Only Islam practiced or lapsed (very very quietly of course). Do you understand Islam better than Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

Try opening your mind. Did you even bother to visit Reza Aslan's site? He understands Islam a hell of a lot better than Ali. What about Irshad Manji's site? Or freemuslims.org? There are plenty of moderate, reform-minded Muslims.

As for your continued pressing of the abrogation theory (note the word: theory), I find it interesting how Jihadists and Muslim-haters use the same justification. Try googling "Quran" "abrogation", skip the usual gaggle of anti-Islamic sites such as jihadwatch and read what Muslims themselves say. Even for those who believe in this theory, there is precious little agreement, particularly on which verses should be considered "abrogated". Modern religious scholars generally do not support the theory.

MND - When, as a nominal Christian, you participate in mass murder, you are not acting as a Christian (no sacred text supports your behaviour).

I agree with you. Although, even so Christians throughout history have managed to find scriptural justifications for their violent acts. Generally, this means they have pulled quotes out of context or misinterpreted divine guidance.

When Islamofascists mass-murder they are acting as very devout Muslims and they have all the late Medina "sword" verses to support them. The Koran counsels subjugation and/or mass murder of infidels.

Not true. Violence is only permitted to be used in self-defence. Those using only select quotes from the Quran and ignoring others are not following the precepts of their own religion. Don't forget, Christians and Jews lived in Muslim-controlled lands for 1400 years, without being subjected to mass murder or forced conversion. If the Quran really did call for their their mass murder, why didn't it happen when they had the chance?

Knight99 seems to be in the dark. He writes about a Baptist missionary, who says, " 'Our activities can lead to people dying, we are aware of that. But to spend eternity in heaven and not in hell – seems like a good deal'.

"What gives this idiot [the missionary] the right to decide that for you or me? How truly would he know what’s good or right for anyone?"

Knight99, the missionary can only PROPOSE. It's the CHOICE of the person in Iraq to accept the teaching or not. And, if the missionary's message is rejected, the Iraqi will not be murdered by the Christian. If the Iraqi accepts the message and is murdered for doing so, who's to blame: the missionary, the convert, or the Muslim jihadist?

And what's this rubbish about Christians turning on each other in the future in bloody warfare? "Guaranteed there will be bloodshed, it’s simply a matter of who has the support of the government at that time." Huh?

FYI: The separation of church and state is an American doctrine, which was put in place to protect believers from the arbitrary use of the power of the state--not the other way around. Read that a few times, Knight.

Canada has no doctrine of separation of church and state. I guess that's why the state, using the Charter and our kangaroo courts, the Human Rights (sic) Commissions, has been persecuting Canadian Christians for expressing the "wrong" ideas. If the use of the punitive power of the state to keep Christians in line bothers you, Knight, perhaps you could gallop to their defence. (Funny, no practitioners of other religions, no matter how repressive and non-PC their beliefs, seem to be hauled before the HRCs . . . )

I don't think I'd be too worried about the Christians, Knight. The Muslims . . . that's another story. And, as the Canadian state has already decided to jackboot the practitioners of certain religions, your worrying about the non-existent separation of church and state seems, at the least, disingenuous.

He who hath eyes/ears, let him see/hear. For a Knight, you seem particularly non vigilant.

Wake up, sir, and breathe in the unpleasant smells already in the air.

The GERMANS carried out the holocaust. The Nazis were the political party in power, widely supported by the population.

Belisarius, the nazi ideology and their supporters carried out the murders. Most German's were Christians but the whole idea of an Aryan Race rejected Christian teachings and relegated it to simply be used as a mechanism for manipulation and propaganda. It seems you want to paint Christians at that time as being ideological supporters of the nazis, they were not. The True Christian Germans were helping and hiding Jews from the nazis; Oskar Schindler [Catholic] comes to mind. Hitler was as much a practicing Christian as Haj Amin was a practicing Jew.

Christians are just as capable of atrocity as anybody else.

The problem Belisarius is you're attributing Roman Christian and Greek Christian conduct from centuries ago to todays Christians.

At least 100,000 Bosnian Muslims were murdered by Serbian Christians (and possibly as many as 300,000). The massacre of the 8000 inhabitants of Srebrenica is the best known incident of this war.

Srebrenica indeed was a massacre but the other figures I'd need to see a link for. Clintonista acknowledged, to his credit, that his claims of genocide that he based his war on were grossly exaggerated. Russia has also had problems with its Muslims- the Chechens- and has had to level Grozny- the capital. There always seems to be a common denominator in these conflicts; that's not to excuse what happened at Srebrenica.

At least 100,000 Bosnian Muslims were murdered by Serbian Christians (and possibly as many as 300,000). The massacre of the 8000 inhabitants of Srebrenica is the best known incident of this war.

I heard a Canadian diplomat posted to the former Yugoslavia explain that the Bosnian conflict was started by the Muslim population a fact that as he said was never reported in the media.

He was in the area at the time and not me so I can not confirm or deny what he said except to say that that is what he said.

Belisarius:
Not true. Violence is only permitted to be used in self-defence

No, no no. Kill the unbelievers, wherever you find them. He who leaves Islam, kill him (not exact words). etc etc etc.

Semantic alert: Self-defence: The call is made to the unbelievers to submit to Islam, the call is ignored, the attack is launched. Fundamentalists consider this self-defence. No really.
As many analysts who know Islam have pointed out, this is what Ahmadinejad has done with those little lectures and in that long letter to Bush. Made the call.

You're wrong, Belisaurius.
Again, cognitive egocentrism: you've got to be alert to the linguistic nuances here.

Did you ever see that video interview of Anjem Choudry with regard to the killing of "innocent civilians". He admitted that only muslims are "innocent" -- unbelievers are "guilty" of not embracing Allah.
There are two spheres Dar Al Harb (the land of war where we are) and Dar Al Islam. "Peace" is when it's all Dar Al Islam.
Let's not give "Peace a Chance" with these well-meaning apologetics.

Much more to be thankful for today; a rich exchange from Bible believers using the freedom of the internet, and the pronouncement of God's word...........bluetech

bluetech exemplifies the attitude and perspective of the Judeo/Christian West.

Now, a perspective from a Muslim Canadian [I believe he is one of the mythical moderates I hear about. The real reformers and enlightened thinkers are the Muslim apostates]..............

A Toronto mosque called, National Post reports, The Khalid Bin Al-Walid Mosque says to "avoid participating" in dinners, parties or greetings on Thanksgiving because it is a kuffaar, or non-Muslim, celebration. Not only is this surprising, but the term kuffaar is a derogatory one meaning "ingrate" that was once applied to slaves.

"How can we bring ourselves to congratulate or wish people well for their disobedience to Allah? Thus expressions such as: Happy Thanksgiving, Happy Birthday, Happy New Year, etc, are completely out," it says.

In 2003, the Khalid mosque, which mainly serves the Toronto Somali-Canadian community, apologized for a newsletter that compared wishing someone a Merry Christmas to congratulating a murderer.”

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/10/thanks_but_no_thanksgiving.html

Good times, good times.

There are no Christian missionary groups anywhere in the world that receive any U.S. government funding for evangelistic work such as church planting. And no missionary groups report to any branch of government. That about kills any theory that Christian missionary work is linked to U.S. or Western foreign policy in any way.

But that separation of church and state must be almost impossible to fathom for people who support theorcratic muslim regimes and "Islamic Republics" where the state and relgious institutions reinforce each other.

Any evangelical Christian, (who by the way are NOT fundamentalists) in the U.S., Canada or Europe will know that any "war" metaphor describing their activities refer to strictly spiritual and internal struggles. But it is in the Jihadists self-interest to highlight any phrase that gives credence to their deluded belief that "Christianity" (i.e., the West) is waging war on Islam.

But that also exposes the motivations of the Jihadists: they are the one's who started the "Holy War" and they are very clear that they believe they must wage literal, material battle against Christianity. That is why they persecute the Christians in their own countries and refer to peaceful missionaries as invaders, and crusaders.

Unfortunately they cannot win for the Christians weapons are much stronger than all the suicide bomb belts, and car bombs and hostage takings, and all the armies of Sunni's, Shiites and Iran combined. As David said to Goliath, "You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the LORD Almighty". As St. Paul said, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power".

The true Christians have always come with love, forgiveness, prayer and yes, even the blood of our martyrs - like the two Korean Christians murdered for their faith in Afghanistan just a few weeks ago. The Roman empire fell before these mighty weapons, and so will Islamic terror.

Belisarius are you down on strudel as well?
Let's cut to the chase here. The holocaust was committed by Germans. Germans are fond of apple strudel. Therefore, the perpetrators of the holocaust were strudel eaters. End of story.

Now I don’t believe strudel eating is a belief system with a moral code such as let’s say; “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”.
So if a German indulged in strudel before a shift at the gas chamber he could still be called a strudel eater but is he still a Christian?

Thanks Doug, lumping me with Belisarius and albatros39a has been the best giggle of the day for me.

Appolyon - Srebrenica indeed was a massacre but the other figures I'd need to see a link for.

Check out the book, "The Bridge Betrayed" by Michael Sells. For links I suggest google.

MND - Semantic alert: Self-defence: The call is made to the unbelievers to submit to Islam, the call is ignored, the attack is launched. Fundamentalists consider this self-defence. No really.

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1188043914402&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE

Appolyon - Srebrenica indeed was a massacre but the other figures I'd need to see a link for.

Check out the book, "The Bridge Betrayed" by Michael Sells. For links I suggest google.

MND - Semantic alert: Self-defence: The call is made to the unbelievers to submit to Islam, the call is ignored, the attack is launched. Fundamentalists consider this self-defence. No really.

Check out the FAQ at "readingislam.com"

Reading Islam is a project of the "Mercy for All" Endowment in Qatar.

Didn't see the FAQ. No matter.

Are you quite serious?

Cal, your logic is inescapable. But the Nazis were NOT fond of apple strudel, considering it a dessert of the weak. Instead, they ate the traditional, tough Maple Nuts favoured by the Aryan worshippers of Thor.

Cripes, I can't believe I've wasted much of two days commenting in this endless, circular argument.

MND - Didn't see the FAQ. No matter.Are you quite serious?

I think the FAQ is called, "Ask About Islam". This seems to be a site managed by moderate Muslims, so they should know something about their own religion, right?

Oh the relativist crap. This is a load of bollocks. Can I be plainer? The several million fundamentalist Christians int eh USA are not out for world domination; the Christian creed and doctrine does not say this,. The islamic one does explicitly state this. So, is she saying muslims in Utah have to pay a special tax and be subserviabnt?

bollocks.

I'm not sure how all this discussion about Nazis started.

But Hitler definitely was not a Christian.

Hitler was a big fan of Schopenhauer, and Shopenhauer's The World as Will and Representation is a restatement of the Upanishads. In place of a divinity, Schopenhauer posited a transcendental, blind will toward manifestation.

Hitler may have had some interest in Christianity during the period he was attracted to Wagner. With the operas Lohengrin and even more particularly Parsival (an adaptation of the Grail legend, by Wolfram von Eschenbach). There was nothing orthodox about the gnostic Christian ideal surrounding the Grail legend.

At the time of Mallory (Mort d'Arthur) the Grail could still be seen as the Cerridwen (cauldron of wisdom), a factor in the mythology of the Tuatha De Dannan. By the time Idles of the King was written by Tennyson, the Grail had become the cup Jesus used at the Last Supper.

All of this and more was incorporated and re-cognized to have its place in the concoction of the Aryan mythology OK'd by Himmler.

Eventually Hitler abandoned any consideration for Christianity.

In the war as a soldier he felt he had discovered that the ultimate purpose of man could only be found in struggle. He completely rejected the idea of Christianity because he saw Jesus as someone who completely abandoned his own life for altruistic motives when the true purpose of life was to find oneself in the process of overcoming great vicissitudes. He had no respect for someone who willngly went to their own death. His hero would have been an Aryan warrior who fought to the last breath, taking as many with him as he could.

So Christianity was a complete anathema to Hitler.

Just a word about this atheist/Christian debate. If people debate the tenets of religion in a serious way, the find themselves leaving behind pastors and priests and moving into the realm of theology.

Should one's debate actually propel one into what might be called the "intellectual realm" of religious apologetics, things become very complicated. In theology, one encounters very sophisticated thinkers completely versed in philosophy, psychology, ancient languages, and virtually the history of thought for the last five millennia.

One finds oneself in an entirely different atmosphere of argument that is not susceptible to simplistic ideas.

Just finished reading Culture Warrior by Bill O'Reilly.

I can now see even clearer how traditional values are under attack in the US by the socialist one-world agenda.

Europe, of course, is long gone and has lost sight of the Judeo-Christian values that formed the basis of American culture. The key word being values.

Canada is not far behind, but thanks to websites like this, decent human beings have a chance to understand they are not alone.

But Hitler definitely was not a Christian.

Plenty of evidence to the contrary.

http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Check out the book, "The Bridge Betrayed" by Michael Sells. For links I suggest google.

I'll look into the book but unsubstantiated wild claims are just that, unsubstantiated wild claims.

http://www.birn.eu.com/en/88/10/3377/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6228152.stm

http://bavault.blogspot.com/2007/07/bosnias-book-of-dead-numbers-and-memory.html

OK, I'm not going to get dragged into this rather preposterous argument about Christianity and Hitler.

Let me just point out that Jesus was a Jew. And Jesus was also a pacifist from Hitler's understanding. Hitler was trying to do away with Jews and regarded Christianity as simply another outgrowth of Judaism.

Hitler was entirely devoted to Schopenhauer and Nitsche, and anyone who knows anything about these two philosphers understands that you can't be a Christian and also profess the views they espoused.

Hitler thought that the crucifixion was "the very personification of the denial of the will to live."

In his Munich speech he said, "The Jew has never founded any civilization, though he has destroyed hundreds. He possesses nothing of his own creation to which he can point. Everything he has stolen. Foreign peoples, foreign workers built his temple; it is foreigners who create and work for him. He has no art of his own; bit by bit he has stolen it from other peoples. He does not even know how to preserve the precious things they have created... In the last resort it is the Aryan who can form states and set them on their paths to future greatness. All this the Jew cannot do. And because he cannot do it, therefore all his revolution must be international. They must spread as pestilence spreads."

Incidentally, it was not only Jews and their offshoot, Christianity, that Hitler wanted to get rid of. He also chased out Freemasons and Rudolf Steiner's Anthroposophy Society.

To get back on topic instead of feeding the shit-for-brains troll, when did Newsworld come up with a German-language edition?

Hitler did embrace the evolution-inspired natural selection theory.

He gave natural selection in his master race theory a bit of a push. He called it eugenics, the cleansing of humanity.

How anybody could attribute this to Christian thought is totally beyond me.

His political party called itself the National Socialist Party.

That particular name and the thrust of its activities, cleansing of undesirable or lesser so-called races, is totally un-Christian.

Christ said: I bring a new commandment and that is to love one another.

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose when arguing in favour of the one-world godless socialist order.

Missionaries? They sent [gasp!] MISSIONARIES to Iraq?!!! Those inhuman bastiges!

Somebody wake me when the Jesuits fly a plane into something in Saudi Arabia. Or maybe a Presbyterian rocket attack on Rexdale mosques. That'd be worth seeing.

To get back on topic instead of feeding the shit-for-brains troll

Nice contribution to the discussion. I take it that any disagreement with the opinion that Muslims are subhuman, murderous savages automatically qualifies one as a troll?

Frankly, this level of discourse makes me embarrassed to call myself a conservative.

Phantom:

Didja just read the last post?

Belasarius claims he's a conservative.

Haven't had such a good laugh since your last post.

Nice contribution to the discussion. I take it that any disagreement with the opinion that Muslims are subhuman, murderous savages automatically qualifies one as a troll?

Belisarius, you’re no troll but you are engaging in leftist deception now. Here in the US the liberal idiots [redundancy] like to paint Conservatives as anti-immigration when they know damn well that we’re anti-illegal immigration. I’ve already explained to you, when I refer to jihadists, subhumans, islamists, filthy primitive 7th century Mohammedan throat cutters, I’m referring to the jihadists that would decapitate our children. I am not referring to the decent Muslims. I’m sure we defer on how many “moderates” there are.

Refrain from the liberal doublespeak, it should be beneath you.

Apollyon - I’m referring to the jihadists that would decapitate our children. I am not referring to the decent Muslims. I’m sure we defer on how many “moderates” there are.

You seem to be in the minority in that opinion. Most of the posters here make no distinction between Muslims, and consider that Islam is at its core fundamentally evil. This is where I disagree, and for which I have been attacked.

Islam is at its core fundamentally evil

I agree with this yet recognize there are good Muslims, as the others here do. Generalizing may give the impression that all Muslims are being put under the same jihadist umbrella but that's not the case.

Belisarius:

You are absolutely wrong in your assertion.

There's no question in my mind most of the people posting here are intelligent enough to know the difference between jihadists and mainstream Muslims.

Of course, you need to perpetrate that lie in order to advance your own socialist agenda.

That particular tactic may work in your circle of intellectually-challenged followers, but not here. This sounding-board has the ability to call BS on you false assertions.

Belasarius claims he's a conservative. Haven't had such a good laugh since your last post.

Whoa, sudden identity crisis, thanks to "set you free". Well, if I'm a liberal then I want my envelope of cash, and pronto!

Of course, you need to perpetrate that lie in order to advance your own socialist agenda.

How did socialism come into this discussion? And when did it become my "agenda"? Sheesh, talk about paranoid...

There's no question in my mind most of the people posting here are intelligent enough to know the difference between jihadists and mainstream Muslims.

I hope you're right. But I've seen an awful lot of posts declaring that "there is no such thing as a moderate muslim".

BS (That's Belisarius for short):

By your own words will you be judged.

You own words have demonstrated you're a deceiver.

Until you demonstrate you embrace traditional values, I will continue to assume you are here to cause strife.

Agreed?

I hope you're right. But I've seen an awful lot of posts declaring that "there is no such thing as a moderate muslim".

The moderate Muslim is so small in number it's hardly worth mentioning. We know there are groups trying to preach reform but for every one of them there are a hundred mosques with depraved clerics preaching death and destruction. The common denominator between two dozen conflicts on the globe is Islam. We deny it to our own detriment.

I posted a comment from a mosque in your country; it should be troublesome.

“Our activities can lead to people dying, we are aware of that. But to spend eternity in heaven and not in hell – seems like a good deal”.

"What gives this idiot the right to decide that for you or me? How truly would he know what’s good or right for anyone?"

Geez, this place is becoming a magnet for half-baked thought. Here's a question: Why would their "activities lead to people dying?" Who would be doing the killing?

"It will be interesting to know in the future {hypothetically} if Christianity wins over Islam"

Adherents of the Catholic faith are equal in number to Islam. Now add all the other Christian denominations. In fact, Christianity is still, by far, the world's fastest growing faith, largely propelled by converts in China.

Belisarius,

"It's either abrogated, or dualistic. Where there is a peaceful, rational verse earlier in the Quran an opposing violent verse is found later. Either way it's equally deceiptful. But then Mohammad said himself that "war is deceipt."

Without this concept there would be no taqiyya or kitman, which the Muslims use to their advantage in conducting passive jihad, or cultural war against its enemies. Imams often say one thing to the infidels, while preaching the opposite to their congregations. This was recently proven again with the Muslim appointee to the Virginia immigration panel."

Prove otherwise.

Your continuation of your absurd claim that Nazis are Christian and that combined with (so far you haven't mentioned who these other genocidal Christian regimes are) supports your assertion that Christians killed more people than muslims during the 20th century.

You have been proven wrong over and over. However, it should be pointed out that no rational person should bother even responding to such a bizarre claim. Putting all other facts aside, such as how the occult informed Hitler and the Nazis, proving that they were not Christian - the actions and attrocities commited by the Nazis proves they were not Christian. The NT and Christs life and commands cannot be reconciled with Naziism, no matter what moonbat argument you put forward.

In other words, you can call yourself smart, but your ridiculous claims and unsubstantiated arguments proves to me that you are instead an idiot.

You still hold your same apologist attitude despite the fact that you cannot prove that violence is foundational to Islam, but not to Christianity.

You should bang your head against the nearest available wall before commenting again.

"Set You Free",

By your own words will you be judged.

By whom?

You own words have demonstrated you're a deceiver.

Be specific. Vague generalities like this are meaningless drivel. Make a point and I will discuss it. How exactly have I tried to "deceive"?

Until you demonstrate you embrace traditional values, I will continue to assume you are here to cause strife.

What exactly are "traditional values"? I take it that you consider your opinions to be representative of these "traditional values" and that anything to the contrary is "strife" or "deceit".

So far Phantom has described it best. Not too many missionaries blow up people to prove a point and I can't remember when the last person to renounce Christ had his/her head lopped off.

ID - ...it should be pointed out that no rational person should bother even responding to such a bizarre claim. Putting all other facts aside, such as how the occult informed Hitler and the Nazis, proving that they were not Christian - the actions and attrocities commited by the Nazis proves they were not Christian.

I would agree they were not Christian acts. But the Germans who committed them considered themselves Christians, including Hitler.

http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

In other words, you can call yourself smart, but your ridiculous claims and unsubstantiated arguments proves to me that you are instead an idiot.

I would call you a fanatic. You haven't proved a damned thing, other than you have poor reading comprehension.

You still hold your same apologist attitude despite the fact that you cannot prove that violence is foundational to Islam, but not to Christianity.

Once again, learn to read. I refer to my previous posts.

And your dismisal of Robert Spencer? How about proving him wrong. He's invited all detractors to do so and not one can.

And right, 'no beliefs.com.' Do you think they might have an axe to grind? Real balanced and rational insight there.

As Christ said, "you shall know them (his followers) by their fruits." I think he knew what he was talking about when it comes to Christians, no?

Again, violence is foundational to Islam, it is not to Christianity.
Although you've been offered the opportunity over and over again, you've not addressed this fact. Which can only mean you've lost the argument. This applies to your Nazi/Christian claim as well.

As I said, bang your head against the nearest wall. The fat lady has finished singing.

I didn't even know much, if anything, about Muslims and their existence until about five to ten years ago when women started showing up wearing their head scarves and burkas in my neck of the woods. Sure I heard about Muslims in the news and terrorist attacks in the Middle East against the U.S., but never really seeing much of them on my home turf. So this tells me, Muslims existed prior to this, at least in my life time, not bothering me at all. Obviously, there is a movement in Islam today by radical Muslims who are bent on aiding prophecy in their scripture and who believe the end time is near, and well, regular go-blow Muslims are being swept along for the ride, just like Germans were swept along for the ride into the Nazi camp for the World Wars.

As for Christians, Christians are as Christians do, not as they say. If it looks like a duck, but barks, it ain't no duck.

BS:

Your assertion that most of the people on this blog cannot tell the difference between a jihadist and a mainstream Muslim is deceptive.

One, I don't believe you.

Two, to make a statement that people here are incapable of sublteties is absurd unless you are a mindreader.

If you say you are a Christian, but go about killing non-Christians in the name of Christ, you are not a Christian.

If you say you are a Muslim, and go about killing non-Muslims in the name of Allah, you are still a Muslim.

Big bloody difference.

Lookout,
A quick reply to clarify your misunderstanding of my comments.

I’m not qualifying the Baptist missionary as an assassin, I was alluding to his presence and unconscious mischief within an unknown culture as dangerous or deadly to the people he claims to be saving. In his own admission
'our activities can lead to people dying, we are aware of that. But to spend eternity in heaven and not in hell – seems like a good deal'.
These are poor people looking for any kind of salvation or handout; I know I’ve lived and worked among them. They won’t reject anything if it feels like a promise for a better future.

The part about Christians turning on themselves in the future is not rubbish it’s food for thought.

Commendable kudos for your patriotism - the separation of church and state was indeed founded within early America although conceived in another part of the world. Was that doctrine solely to protect the religious populous from the state? Or the state from the popular religion? Regardless the act was sane and continues to work within the complexities of modern extremism in all forms.

Again to make this quick, I don’t need to gallop up anywhere, I’m already there. When you see past the petty personal assaults you may see the front line as I do.

the separation of church and state was indeed founded within early America although conceived in another part of the world.

Knight 99, the liberal idiots [redundancy] in America like to babble endlessly about this mythical “separation of church and state” concept. This phrase is nowhere to be found in the US Constitution. This phrase is from a speech/letter, which must be explained in context.

America funded churches and religious schools with tax dollars not long ago; what there was in our Constitution was a ban on a central govt church/religion like the Church of England, which is why America broke away in the first place; the settlers were looking for a country to practice their religion freely and be free men. On the contrary there are laws protecting religious expression but the leftist deviants and their cohorts in the judicial system have been stripping Christians of their rights to express. To no ones surprise the same religious bigotry is absent when concerning Muslims. For them we grovel shamelessly and liberals conveniently forget of their favorite misnomer, “separation of church and state.”

Again, violence is foundational to Islam, it is not to Christianity.
Although you've been offered the opportunity over and over again, you've not addressed this fact. Which can only mean you've lost the argument. This applies to your Nazi/Christian claim as well.

That's your opinion, ID. In my opinion I have addressed this non-fact time and time again. Violence is not foundational to Islam, so your basic premise is flawed.

As for the Nazi/Christian claim (although I said German, not Nazi, remember?) you've attacked the name of the site I referred to, but not the information it presents.

I've noticed that when presented with evidence that does not support your positions, you immediately declare it invalid. Muslim sites which contradict your views are automatically practicing "deceit". Frankly it doesn't matter what evidence I present or web information I link to, you won't believe it.

SYF - Your assertion that most of the people on this blog cannot tell the difference between a jihadist and a mainstream Muslim is deceptive.

Okay, I'll agree with you there. My bad. Let me rephrase. Some of the people posting on this blog do not consider there to be a difference between jihadists and mainstream Muslims.

If you say you are a Christian, but go about killing non-Christians in the name of Christ, you are not a Christian.

So you are saying that it is impossible for Christians to have committed mass murder, since they stopped being Christians the moment the act was committed? Does this apply to breaking all of the ten commandments? Or just murder? Can they become Christians again?

If you say you are a Muslim, and go about killing non-Muslims in the name of Allah, you are still a Muslim.

In Muslim eyes, it would depend upon the circumstances.

Great rebuttal.

'I don't believe you, so therefore your premise is flawed.'

It's not a premise, it's a fact, as I've proven. And which you cannot disprove. This has been established. You can go on believing in your feelings. because that's apparently all there is supporting your 'arguments,' if they can be called that.

Further, you've presented no evidence, Nazi's can claim to be Christians, however, by their actions they are not. This is measured and judged by Christ's words, not mine.

Besides, no rational person with any respect for their intellectual credibility would ever venture such an absurd claim. Nazi's are Christians (that's exactly what you claimed). Oh, oh, wait a second. (SFX: backpeddling) It's not the Nazis, its now the Germans that were, you know, Nazis and Christians. There that ought to clarify it.

Haven't banged your head yet, huh?

www.prophetofdoom.net

This website analyzes the entire terrorist agenda, in Muhammad's own words.

Muhammad's followers, what we call jihadists today, are just trying to emulate the prophet.

Moderate Muslims can be recruited to do jihad at any time.

Like I said ID, you have a reading comprehension problem. I never once referred to "Nazis". That was you, dude.

Just keep ignoring my evidence and pretending it doesn't exist. I guess it seems to work for you.

Belisarius

I hate to see you persist in your folly about Islam. Please read the Quran yourself and realise that you are the "other" while reading it. You may wish to read some hadith and get a synopsis of Mohammed's life. A brief scan of the history of Islam since its founding would also be helpful. As a matter of fact I suggest everyone who doesn't know his Quran from his elbow should. Hot Air is blogging the sura on a book by book basis weekly.

It is not a matter of hating muslims Belisarius, its a matter of understanding the ideology of Islam and understanding its toxicity to everything non islamic it comes in contact with. Allah lays a very heavy burden on his followers who wish to please him. Allah demands they work openly or covertly to further the cause of Islam until the entire world has only Islam for a religion. Well that was Mohammeds spiel for his followers to work on as an end goal. On the way there they would create an empire spread by the sword and the threat of the sword.

Islam is both simple and complex. It is a huge criminal organization under the guise of religion. What other religion instructs you as the noble Quran does that Allah and his messenger get 20 % off the top of all booty taken on an invasion of a neighbor. (which is defending Islam from having an unbeliever as a neighbor which is a danger and an insult to Allah) What other religion has a god who boasts of himself as the greatest deceiver?

There are many muslims in name only, there are a few brave ones who propose reform while still muslim and some brave and foolish ones who become apostates and demand reform. The vast majority do not know the full structure of islam because women are discouraged from education while the males education consists of memorising the Quran in Arabic (which isn't much help if you speak Urdu). Muslims are very unsure of their status before Allah. The only guarantee of heaven is martyrdom, everything else is a nervous crap shoot for the believer who stays at home and doesn't go on Jihad when called.

Well Belarius I can't straighten you out on Islam in a mere post but I have pointed you in the right direction. If your fog up till now is honest lack of Islamic knowledge, well that is to be forgiven , most westerners have not the faintest idea of the workings behind Islam. And that is totally ironic because the truth is in plain sight and yet no one will read it.

knight 99: I've decoded your message--I appreciate the polite tone--but honestly don't know what you're talking about. Do you?

Please tell me this was produced by "radio AlQuaida" or "Radio Damascus"? Surely not a German station? And here I thought moonbattery was strictly an anglosphere problem!

Hitler and the Nazis hated Christianity - they knew it came from Judaism and they saw as a weakness.

Nazism = Paganism

The Nazis hated Jews because they represented God and an absolute power beyond themselves.

Hitler believed that before monotheism and the Jewish ethical vision came along, the world operated according to the laws of nature and evolution: survival of the fittest. The strong survived and the weak perished. But in a world operating according to a Divinely-dictated ethical system -- where a God-given standard applies and not anyone's might -- the weak did not need to fear the strong. As Hitler saw it, the strong were emasculated and he blamed the Jews for this.

His plan was to take over the world and set up a barbarian master race - a plan that he came very close to executing. But to do so, he had to get rid of the Jews first. As he said:

"The Ten Commandments have lost their validity... Conscience is a Jewish invention. It is a blemish like circumcision ... The struggle for world domination is fought entirely between us, between the Germans and the Jews."

(See Hermann Rauschning, Hitler Speaks, pp. 220, 242.)

ex-lib:

Sounds like Hitler embraced the Darwinian principle of survival of the fittest.

BL@KBIRD,

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I don't agree with everything you said obviously, but there is no question that Islam today has very big problems. Not the least of these is Jihadism and terrorism, both of which seem to be accepted by more and more mainstream Muslims. I have always stated that Islam needs major reform, and that it must learn to address the balance between faith and reason. Christianity overcame this problem many centuries ago.

My knowledge of Islam has been more heavily influenced by writers such as Reza Aslan than Robert Spencer. I don't believe that violence is fundamental to Islam, but I'm willing to acknowledge I could be wrong. Nobody has managed to prove it to me yet though, probably because most of what I have read that argues that position does not take into account historical or religious context.

I'll have a read of one of Spencer's books and see what he has to say.

Lookout, it’s a common error that Knight99 made, with no malicious intent. The leftists have been beating this drum for decades: “separation of church and state” and it’s hard to fault some of those who become prey to this lie. The leftists have learned well the indoctrination skills of the now on the ash heap of history KKK and the madras’s that brainwash little hajjis. When you see little kids saying they want to be martyr’s and blow up infidels they were taught this at a young age through repetition, engraining the child with this bile. And the left does the same with its stranglehold on academia churning out semi-literate America-hating communists. The “separation of church and state” bit is just a piece of the propaganda and those not familiar with our Constitution can be easily misled.

The leftist dregs in the US are trying to purge God from America. The left wants no accountability for their deviancy and the last thing they want is a moral ethics code to abide by, thus their constant ramble of “don’t judge me”; you better believe I’m going to judge you.

I'll have a read of one of Spencer's books and see what he has to say.

Spencer is a giant in this area.

"The Ten Commandments have lost their validity... Conscience is a Jewish invention. It is a blemish like circumcision ... The struggle for world domination is fought entirely between us, between the Germans and the Jews."

Amazing quote, ExLiberal.

Amazing not in the good sense but to the degree to which Hitler rightly viewed the Jews influence on humanity.

Many words. Satan speaks. No truth in the video. Who supports this is Satan.

BL@KBIRD at October 8, 2007 9:42 PM
ex-liberal at October 8, 2007 9:55 PM
Excellent, very informative posts, so late in this thread!

Amazing how the Jews, emasculated by ethics/morality, could be so all-powerful, eh?

Thought: Never underestimate the power of envy in the world. In fact, I think it's the main ingrediet in the modern jihad against Israel and the West. The excruciating pain of seeing the lowest of the people of the book and the west thrive, while Allah's favourites fail miserably everywhere in the ME.

Belarius

Don't bother with an interpretation. Make your decision by reading the primary sources. There are many widely accepted english translations of the koran online. I also highly recommend joining a website called ummah .com. It runs out of Britain but has a world audience. It is a muslim forum where muslims discuss all things. Join with an inoffensive user name and have a look at what every days muslims think. It will blow you away I guarantee you. Don't be disrespectful or ask pointed questions about Mohammed or you will be quickly banned. Again I recommend everyone spend an hour or two at ummah.com for an unvarnished vision of Islam as demonstrated by its followers.

The ideology is full of delicious contradictions as well. For example Zagat is the tax all muslims are expected to pay annually to charity. In practical terms it is equivalent to two or three percent of a believers annual income. You may have often heard of middle east charities that are active world wide. The truth is that the Quran directs that this charity tax also goes to fund jihad and is explicitly stated so in the Quran. So not only is this money collected to buy poor Moustapha a pair of sandals when he has none but also to buy young Muhammed a box of AK47 rounds for jihad. The division of the funds is up to the Imams but it seems Moustapha always remains shoeless in the unhealthy world of Islam. Did you know that a portion of the Tsunami's relief funds went for new whips for the enforcers of sharia law in Banda Ache?

set you free,
Hitler did embrace Darwinism.
He also saw Christianity as a Jewish plot

one of Germany's biggest thinkers of the 19th century -- Wilhelm Marr -- coined the term "anti-Semitism." In 1879, he wrote a book called The Victory of Judaism over Germandom; in it Marr warned:

"There is no stopping them [the Jews]. Are there no clear signs that the twilight of the Jews is setting in? No. Jewry's control of society and politics as well as its domination of religious and ecclesiastical thought is still in the prime of its development. Yes, through the Jewish nation Germany will become a world power, a western new Palestine. And this will happen not through violent revolution but through the compliance of the people. We should not reproach the Jewish nation. It fought against the western world for 1,800 years and finally conquered it. We were vanquished. The Jews were late in their assault on Germany but once started there was no stopping them ...

"I am marshalling my last remaining strength in order to die peacefully as one who will not surrender and who will not ask for forgiveness. The historical fact that Israel became the leading social political superpower in the 19th century lies before us. We have amongst us a flexible, tenacious, intelligent foreign tribe that knows how to bring abstract reality into play in many different ways. Not individual Jews but the Jewish spirit and Jewish consciousness have overpowered the world. All this is the consequence of a cultural history so unique in its way, so grand that every day polemic can achieve nothing against it. With the entire force of its armies the proud Roman Empire did not achieve that which Semitism has achieved in the West and particularly in Germany."

Keep in mind that when Marr wrote these words, the State of Israel did not exist, nor was there even a hint in the geo-political situation that it might come into being anytime soon. Marr, in speaking of the Jewish national threat, was speaking about the great ideological struggle of Jewish worldview versus paganism, which had been playing out throughout Jewish history.

(from Aish HaTorah Crash Course in Jewish History)

Christians and Jews are still struggling against paganism.

ex-liberal - You are wrong about Hitler. He considered himself a Christian.

A quote:

"No, it is not we that have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine (Lehre ) of the Confessions or with their religious freedom (Bekenntnisfreiheit ), nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends....

National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God."

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934

More here.

http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

BL@KBIRD - I'm not new to studying Islam, and I have examined most of the primary sources. Ummah.com is new to me, but I've seen other sources like it.

As I said, I'll have a read of Spencer to see what he has to say. I'll read critically of course, and will check out his sources. As I've said, I've also read other authors such as Muslim scholar Reza Aslan and reformer Irshad Manji. I would recommend both of these authors to you. "No God But God" is a particularly excellent book. The comparison should be interesting. I also planning on watching Manji's documentary "Faith Without Fear", which I haven't had a chance to see yet.

I have run across a number of arguments claiming that Hitler was a Christian, or that he was deeply influenced by Christianity. Some people have even gone to great lengths to assemble quotes from Hitler which show any kind of Christian or even vaguely religious influence. One website posted not only quotes but also photos of Hitler or groups of Nazis near churches, implying a connection between Hitler and Christianity. Significantly, in all of the quotes attempting to link Hitler to Christianity, put together after diligent search by the enemies of Jesus Christ, there is nothing about forgiveness for sin through the blood of Christ shed on the cross; nothing about eternal life in heaven or eternal punishment in hell; nothing about the Trinity or the virgin birth; nothing about the bible as the divinely inspired and infallible word of God, or about any other of the most basic doctrines of Christianity.

People who put up such websites are motivated by hostility to Christianity, and want only to attack the Christian faith by linking it to the evils of the Third Reich. They do not spend a lot of time on serious study of the cultural climate of 19th-century Germany where Hitler's true roots (humanly speaking) lay. They do not know or want to know about the deep affinities between Hitler and Wagner, Houston Stewart Chamberlain, Nietzsche, Haeckel, or other earlier German thinkers and writers. They won't comb through Mein Kampf hunting for anything suggestive of Darwinism or evolution, of Entwicklung or the struggle for survival. No, they will only take and misrepresent some vague references to God and Christianity, all of which are totally void of any real Christian doctrine, many of which were designed solely for self-serving political purposes, and have as much validity as Hitler's promise at Munich, "This will be my last territorial demand."

from "Christianity and Hitler"

Hitler was a pagan who wanted to put an end to God's witnesses - Jewish and Christian.

Okay, you've questioned the motives of the site's author, but what about the contents? It seems quite clear that Hitler considered himself a Christian. An example:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Actually, never mind ex-Liberal. The discussion is pointless. Hitler was evil and the less we read of anything the man said or did the better. My apologies.

Regardless of what he said he was anything but a Christian. True deceit on his part.

This argument about Hitler thinking he was Christian seems a bit pointless. I met a man who thought he was the queen of England but I'm quite certain he was wrong. I went to school with a boy who thought he was Batman. I’m quite certain he was wrong too, I received a letter a few years ago from some guy in Nigeria who said he had a bunch of money he needed help getting out of Nigeria but you know when I tried to help him he kept asking me for money do you suppose he was telling me a tall tale about all that money he promised me? If you asked any church of Hitler’s time if Hitler was a Christian they would have laughed at you and thought you were delusional or a fool or maybe a delusional fool. Don’t believe me ask Dietrich Bonheoffer, oh that’s right Dietrich didn’t make it did he. His attempt to overthrow Hitler didn’t meet with much success. Funny that a Christian trying to overthrow Hitler. I’m sure someone here on this thread said Hitler was a Christian too. Could that person be playing with us for fools?

Hitler spoke of Christianity only to consolidate power by fooling a bunch of non thinking Christians that really he (Hitler) was on their side.

However the Zeitgeist of that era had an impact on the left leaning Christians of the time. Read Tommy Douglas and you will see what I mean.

Joe:

You mean Tommy Douglas's belief in eugenics, natural selection speeded up by the processes of man?

As I understand it, Douglas did embrace eugenics ... curious for a purportedly Christian I would admit. But then, a Christian embracing a cousin of communism (socialism) is also a curious bent.

For the record, Douglas disavowed himself from the eugenics theory inspired by Darwin when he visited pre-WWII Germany.

I could be wrong, but I believe the year he stopped actively promoting eugenics was 1934.

That does not mean he did not continue to believe in eugenics, but to his credit he never enacted the practise as did Alberta.

set you free

I believe your history of Douglas is correct and I wasn't trying to make him out as the devil incarnate. Rather I wanted to use his example as a warning to all Christians that our beliefs are often tempured by the Zeitgeist of our society and that as Christians we need not only to be aware of it but to be wary of it.

Too often "received wisdom" is not very wise.

Joe:

Any Christian denomination which tries to be with the times is doomed to ultimate failure. To overly concern itself with the world a denomination is in danger of transforming into a political party in disguise.

My understanding about the human spiritual journey is it transcends the stage we must play our lives out on. It's more about how we deal with the hand we're dealt and how well we understand the universal truths whose clues are all around us.

set you free
Well said

Joe:

I admit I voted for Trudeau in my younger and more foolish days.

Today, older and wiser (I hope), I have realized traditional values is the way to go and I will fight the utopian totalitarians on the battleground of ideas to my dying breath.

The 20th century has proven that no matter how many hundreds of millions of innocent human beings are killed, the human spirit cannot be dominated.

Human nature is what it is and humanity can never be evolved through passage of restrictive laws or judicial activism.

That is the wisdom of the ages. Yet, human nature has proven time and time again the folly of youth.

Hitler will not be the last to claim he is carrying out God's will. Apparently for some, offering a Jesus video is the same as strapping on explosives to be a martyr (murderer). Here's a hint, they are not doing God's work when they say:

- kill the infidel
- clad her in a burqua
- shoot the abortion doctor
- invade Iraq

These are affairs of man, rightly or wrongly, and not to be confused with God's business and plans for us.

Well said, Shamrock. It's what I've been saying all along. Violence is foundational to humanity. People find excuses to kill regardless of what their religious texts say or don't say.

Belisarius:

And when humans reject the values articulated in religious texts, when they descend into hatreds and ignorance, violence is inevitable.

The 20th century, with its proliferation of secular progressive murderers, is total proof of that.

Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot could not change human nature, so they came up with their own final solution ... anybody who disagrees dies.

Hundreds of millions, more than any other period in the sad history of man, had their lives snuffed out.

Tell me, again, which one of those enlightened world views helped evolve humanity from its basic nature. Not one of them.

I will continue to fight those leftist vermin until I draw my last breath.

A lot of good and interesting comments here.

There is so much propaganda going on that it's becoming laughable.
I've read (maybe here) that the massive hatred against Bush is because he is seen as a fundamentalist Christian and nothing irks post-Christians relativists (mostly rich North Americans and Euro guys) more than someone in charge of the strongest nation in the world being a Christian and being proud of it - and the threat of him daring to make a decision based on his beliefs.

I don't see anything radical about Bush. His father is a devout Episcopalian (Anglican) and his brother Jeb is a devout Catholic - he has seen many Christian traditions - and he seems to respect them.

The only issue I have is if there are SB's going into Iraq on their own they are jeopardizing American troops lives. To see a bunch of SB's from South Korea held hostage in Afghanistan - and have 2 of them killed - and then have Nato and the US spend enormous amounts of money to free them and ship them back to South Korea is incredibly stupid.

The best way to evangelize people is by providing true freedom, democracy and a rule of law that allows people to improve themselves - then they will make their own decisions about religion

I think that it is Europe that needs to be re-evangelized.

I have in front of me a rather vicious looking dagger, scabbard and belt with a belt buckle that shows an eagle holding up a swastika and is inscribed with: “GOTTMITUNS”. Now if I'm not mistaken many Germans were Catholic so this Gott (God) must be the same one that Fundamentalist Christians now follow. Some Catholics will tell you that this Fundamentalist God is a different God than their God, just ask the Pope, but who cares.

The intolerant comment made by Christian folk, on this Blog, toward anyone who questions the validity or perhaps the existence of their God, scares the Hell out of me. However, as an Atheist I have absolutely no fear of Hell.

loboy2k:

Thanks for your amazing confession.

You have absolutely no fear of Hell?

That's not surprising at all, since the absence of any moral compass (an ability to distinguish between right and wrong) is the hallmark of the secular progressive movement.

Kiddie porn? No problem.

Killing the unborn? Hey, it's my right.

Murder of hundreds of millions who do not agree with you? Just helping along the process of natural selection.

Freedom to indulge in self-destructive behaviour? Hey, it's my right to contract AIDS and it's up to everybody else to clean up the mess.

Hell, yeah.

"Kiddie porn? No problem." set you free

Was no problem in Canadian residential schools.

syf,

Isn't "moral compass" what the believers commonly use the reason for burning or blowing up infidels & heretics?

Fanatic believers have committed atrocities in the name of religion (e.g. Christianity, Islam, Communism, etc) for thousands of years, so today's situation is no different (i.e. collectivist group-think is the generic problem).

Actually, Bush is a Universalist:

(townhall.com) "that (Christian) constituency is likely to be troubled over something the president said in an interview with Al Arabiya television. In an official transcript released by the White House, the president said, "ŠI believe in an almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God." Later in the interview, the president repeated his statement: "I believe there is a universal God. I believe the God that the Muslim prays to is the same God that I pray to. After all, we all came from Abraham. I believe in that universality."

To paraphrase a remark often attributed to the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, everyone is entitled to his or her own faith, but everyone is not entitled to define the central doctrines of that faith. The doctrines of what is called Christianity not only stand in stark contrast to Islam, they also teach something contrary to what the president says he believes.

It is one thing to try to reach out to moderate and sincerely peaceful Muslims. It is quite another to say the claims of your own faith are of no greater importance than the often contradictory claims of another faith. If we all worship the same God, the president should answer the call of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Osama bin Laden, convert to Islam and no longer be a target of their wrath. What difference would it make if we all worship the same God?"

------------

"Violence is foundational to humanity. People find excuses to kill regardless of what their religious texts say or don't say."

The god of the Quran commands and rewards his followers for violence against the other. This is a fact.

The Quran commands his followers to emulate the "perfect man," Mohammad. As proven in the Hadith, Sirah and Quran - Mohammad is a known mass murderer, thief, pedophile and rapist. This is a fact.

Violence is foundational to Islam. This is a fact.

It matters much what a religious text says. In the case of the devout Muslim, by doing the violence commanded in the Quran and emulating their prophet, they are doing allahs will, and therefore their actions are sanctified and divinely blessed.

---------------

The anti-Nazi, German theologian, Martin Niemoller:

"First they came for the Communists, and I did not speak up because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak up because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I did not speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me."

I think that pretty much sums up the sensibilities in Germany at the time.

The Nazis aimed to wipe out Christians the same way they did the Jews:

An introduction:
http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/Lucaire.htm

johan:

No, moral compass is the ability to distinguish from right and wrong.

For instance, go to www.canoe.ca.

There, a mother who killed her child has been released on bail.

Under the progressive secular philosophy, that seems be OK.

Under traditional values, the sancity of life is important, therefore the moral compass would tell you what he did was wrong.

Under the progressive secular system, this mother would be a prime candidate for remedial justice.
Watch this case closely (and I'm just pointing out today's example).

The mother's actions, killing a life which she herself delivered, will be excused in some way.

Blame-shifting is the classic technique by which progressive seculars can justify their belief that nobody is responsible for their actions, no matter how reprehensible.

And, if nobody is responsible for their actions ... well, we all remember what happened to the Roman empire.

Who decides what is right and what is wrong? You're group or mine?

With God on our side, how can we ever do anything wrong?

ron in kelowna:

Just came back from a three-day trip to your fine city.

Stayed at the Royal Anne Hotel downtown.

Anyway, the pedophiles who cloaked themselves in clerical legitimacy were not following the tenets of the Bible.

Try as I might, I have been unable to find any scriptural justification for pedophelia.

It's perfectly fine for secular progressives, though, who reject the concept of personal responsibility.

set you free,

Why is it you were looking for scriptural justification?

Christian fundamentalists send missionaries, Islamic fundamentalists send suicide bombers. What more needs to be said?

johan:

It is up to each individual to discover what is right and wrong.

Nobody can impose self-control onto you. It's something that comes from within.

If you're waiting for me to tell you how to run your life, you'll be waiting a long time.

My spritual journey is totally personal and has nothing to do with yours.

BTW, I was thinking of moving to Newfoundland.

John the Nice Guy might be a good place, I suppose.

Europe is being infiltrated by Islam.

Didn't the Muslims start God War I around 700 AD ?
And God War II around 1400 AD ?
Now, it is closing in on 2100 AD, and that 700 Hundred Year Muslim itch to Dominate the World is in full bloom again ?

Personally,, I need to see more Moderate Muslims en masse publicly condemn the actions of the Radical Muslims, because all this Religion of Peace has shown me is a Culture of Violence .

It seems my country, America, is the final bastion of folks who are willing when it comes to Islam to call a spade a spade. My opinion of Moderate Islam is you can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

If my comment seems a lil ruff, it's because of 8 years of Clinton doing nothing, and 6 1/2 years of Bush catching up, so I may in fact be a lil jaded.
,

syf,

Do "secular progressives" really reject the concept of personal responsibility?

What about us libertarian atheists, do we also, in your view, not accept the concept of personal responsibility?

What planet are you on?

johan:

I'm all for traditional values.

What's your take on the Ottawa gal who killed her young son to hide the fact she was pregnant?

Is that right or wrong?

Surely, letting her get away with murder be not be fine with a libertarian? Correct?

loboy2k writes, "The intolerant comment made by Christian folk, on this Blog, toward anyone [sic] who questions the validity or perhaps the existence of their God, scares the Hell out of me. However, as an Atheist I have absolutely no fear of Hell."

I beg your pardon? What scares the hell out of me is the increasing number of entitled, ignorant loud mouths like this poster, who believe their uninformed, unsubstantiated OPINIONS really count. Unfortunately, that's what they've been taught at school and everywhere else in our shallow, narrow-minded--yes, loboy2k, your viewpoint is astonishingly parochial--synthetic culture.

If this poster really believes his blanket condemnation of the "Christian folk", me included, who have made comments on this thread (blog), he also has a language processing problem, e.g., he can decode the words he reads here, but, lacking knowledge and context, doesn't really understand them.

Kyrie eleison. (That means, "Lord, have mercy." And it's something we all need, whether we know it or not.)

Ya don't have to dye your hair to get into our church -- you are welcome, and I will be happy to introduce you to the gift and love of Jesus Christ -- anytime... just ask...

Seriously -- I just can't believe this is not a parody...God Bless You...The Love of Jesus Christ and peace be with you sister...

syf,

If you think libertarians approve of murder, you are truly astonishingly ignorant.

Orlin, could you please provide some context for your comments? Maybe I should understand your meaning, but I don't.

johan:

Thanks for answering the question.

The name-calling part was totally unnecessary.

I did ask the question respectfully.

If anything, it is very evident God was not on the side of the Germans/Hitler; God was on our side.

Apparently, Hitler is believed to have had Parkinson's disease, that not only affects the body, but also the mind; it is a belief that at his end, he was not thinking correctly, like that is a stretch, but nonetheless, back in the day, there weren't the drugs we have today to help with the effects of the disease on the brain or maybe missing one's left testicle does something to ya.

http://www.hmc.psu.edu/healthinfo/pq/parkinsons.htm

"In the later stages, many people with Parkinson's disease suffer from depression and develop dementia, which is the progressive loss of intellectual function, and psychosis, a loss of an awareness of reality."

Maybe it should dawn on some of the people here that Hitler may have proclaimed he was a Christian and may have even believed it himself, but he was also at war with Christian countries, so trying to make out that Christians are a bunch of killers, be thankful that Christians fought this SOB and won.

For those uninformed taking the "Gott Mit Uns" inscription in the belt buckle as definitive of NS movement as some sort of weird offshoot of Christianity are mistaken.

This inscription hails back to the time of the Prussian armies. It was in fact a carryover of previous military inscriptions.

For those still arguing whether the NS movement was "Christian"; perhaps they should explain why the priest St. Maximillian Kolbe was sent to Auschwitz and finally paid the ultimate price.

Anyone who knows even the slightest bit of history would demolish this farcical proposition post haste.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintm01.htm

On 28 May 1941 he was transferred to Auschwitz and branded as prisoner 16670. He was assigned to a special work group staffed by priests and supervised by especially vicious and abusive guards. His calm dedication to the faith brought him the worst jobs available, and more beatings than anyone else. At one point he was beaten, lashed, and left for dead. The prisoners managed to smuggle him into the camp hospital where he spent his recovery time hearing confessions. When he returned to the camp, Maximilian ministered to other prisoners, including conducting Mass and delivering communion using smuggled bread and wine.

In July 1941 there was an escape from the camp. Camp protocol, designed to make the prisoners guard each other, required that ten men be slaughtered in retribution for each escaped prisoner. Francis Gajowniczek, a married man with young children was chosen to die for the escape. Maximilian volunteered to take his place, and died as he had always wished - in service.

The proposition that National Socialism had anything to do with Christianity or faith should laughed at from the top of every church belfry.

Hans:

Yet they try.

Marxists say National Socialism is a right-wing philosophy when it is a utopian/totalitarian cousin on that rates high on the state control meter.

I have come to the conclusion that only a marxist can see National Socialism as right-wing.

Yet, the two are chillingly similar in their belief that human nature can be evolved.

And, for those who refuse to be forcibly evolved, a death sentence is issued.

Have to say this for them. Through the public education system, the marxists are persistent in brainwashing our youth and indoctrinating them into a hateful philosophy toward those who will not tow the line.

The secular progressives will never win because no thinking human being will ever believe their deceptions.

That video is sickening.
Which part of the singing, or people with their arm around one another praying did the germans decide was dangerous religious fanatical extremism??

If the SB are so much in Kahoots with the Bush regime (notice in German there is no distinction between "regime" and "government"), how come Bush is pushing to give Holy Jewish land into the hands of Muslim terrorists, including even half of Jerusalem?!
I suppose liberals are too busy to notice these things...