As safe and healthy as Iraq was under Saddam Hussein.

I shed no tears for the downfall of either regime.

AIDS, one damn nasty piece of business. I buried my cousin and best friend in the late 80's. He was a flaming homo who refused to take precautions. But, we were very ignorant on the subject back then. Today, no friggin excuse! The people of Africa are totally to blame for the current problem(not bush, not cheney, not haliburton)and it is disgraceful how the disease is still spreading so rapidly. If these tin-pots would spend some money on rubbers instead of weapons, and men would keep their willies in their pants, the rate of this disease spreading would slow a bit. Very sad indeed that something so preventable is killing so many people.

"So: was South Africa a safer, healthier nation under apartheid?"

Nothing to discuss, the data exists to say one way or another. Maybe you could cite a source from the internet; I recommend Wikipedia.

And as if Canadians are capable of having an intelligent discussion about SA. They cry like babies if you point out their hero Mandela was a TERRORIST with strong ties to communism. I concur with Coyne; we are the stupidest friggin' country on the face of the earth.

wait til us whites are in the minority in 30-60 years and the same happens here.

South Africa is a good place to look to see where Canada's excessive immigration rates will take us they too have diversity with many Asians, whites and blacks all living in joyous harmony....

RE: AIDS on the African continent.

I've met people there who have been told by their physician that if they want to get rid of AIDS they need only have unprotected sex with a virgin, in SA there are young rape victims in line at the local clinic every day, including infants.

http://tinyurl.com/cjdmy

It is absolutely mind boggling considering that African Countries have been asking for and receiving lots western dollars to “tackle the AIDS problem”.

http://tinyurl.com/3xzj9g (old article but the amount is staggering)

The solution lies in education but the Africans in charge seem unwilling to solve the problem lest funding be cut off.

The UN is not in the business of peacekeeping and humanitarianism, it’s in peacekeeping and humanitarianism for the business.

IMO If you want to help Africa stop throwing money at them, it is little more than a feel good exercise.

Al fresh back from Africa

Re: the need for Feel-good AIDS awareness "concerts"

"What deserves mocking is the idea that easy, cost-free public gestures like this represent anything but self-dramatising narcissism dressed up as compassion for one's fellow creatures."

Some one came up with this profound observation in a thread yesterday where we discussed the superficial sanctimony of the corporate church.

It would seem the corporate church is in competition with the secular humanist cults of pop do-gooders for top position as the moral compass of humanity...of course their efforts are "self-dramatising narcissism dressed up as compassion"

That's a lot of money. Anyone following the money?And don't even try to compare 'health and education costs' to our economy or system.
A member of my family was overseas when she collapsed from dehydration. For a doctor and nurse to treat her in the home she was visiting, set up IV, plus administer meds, she paid a whopping $17.00 Cdn.
On another visit she and a team of volunteers built an AIDS orphanage. It was in a self sustaining community. They were able to grow their own chickens and veggies.And had schools.
So I ask again...who's following the money?
If SA's neighbour Mugabe gets his fingers on it you can be sure the people in the small communities won't see a penny of it.

YES

Dan...is that YES to the first question, or the last?

The Comintern used to have a Party Line, to which all bien-pensant Communists adhered. While there is no longer an official Party Line, so far as I know, the unofficial line which bien-pensant leftists follow is as definite as ever the official Comintern doctrine was. The virtue of "AIDS awareness", and of working for "AIDS awareness", is part of that. However strange it may seem, "I believe what the Church believes; the Church believes what I believe" as mediaeval Christians would say, has its modern echo, and equally assures the true believer a place in ...
Heaven? ah well, that is a problem. Entombment in the Red Wall is no longer available.

AIDS is not the biggest problem in Africa.

Tribalism and stupidity are the big killers.

I will not contribute one red cent to Africa until they start behaving like men rather than monkeys.

4 decades of black control, and these morons still can't feed themselves.

Time to give it up fellas.

Dr Albert Schweitzer, who spent most of his life in Africa, "uplifting" Negroes, received the Nobel Prize for Peace in 1952. He held several doctorate degrees. Shortly before his death, he said:

"I have given my life to alleviate the sufferings of Africa. There is something that all white men that have lived here must learn and know; that these individuals are a sub-race; they have neither the intellectual, mental or emotional abilities to equate or share in any of the functions of our civilization. I have given my life to try and bring them the advantages which our civilization must offer, but I have become well aware that we must retain this status; white, the superior, and they the inferior, for whenever a white man seeks to live among them as their equal, they will either destroy him or devour him, and they will destroy all his work; and so for any existing relationship or for any benefit to this people let white men from anywhere in the world who would come to help Africa remember that you must continually retain the status; you the master, and they inferior, like children that you would help or teach. Never fraternize with them as equals, never accept them as your social equals; or they will devour you; they will destroy you."

Follow the money indeed.

I don't for a second blame Bush or the western world for AIDs or HIV. On the contrary, much has been done.

But much too has been promised by politicians trying to curry votes. Bush made a surprise and enormous promise of $15 billion toward AIDs/HIV African assistance in his State of the Union address in 2003 ("I ask the Congress to commit $15 billion over the next five years" - www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html). He even went on to say in interviews that he was not convinced of the need but, after speaking with Catholic and evangelical missionaries and friends, he realized the need to help.

So what of all that money? First, he imposed a condition that not a dime would go to anyone dying of AIDs if that country's government permitted abortions. Second, he imposed a condition that not a dime would go to anyone dying of AIDs if that country's government distributed condoms or taught anything but abstinence. And even then, how much money has even flowed? And where? Like his grandiose promises of funding up to $80 million toward faith-based charitable initiatives, it turns out it was all driven by politics and hardly a dime has been seen by any AIDs/HIV patient or faith-based organization through either plan.

I pick on Bush not because he's a demonic idiot, but because he's a bloody typical politician, not much different than any other and not much different than the rock stars and to whom the quotation "What deserves mocking is the idea that easy, cost-free public gestures like this represent anything but self-dramatising narcissism dressed up as compassion for one's fellow creatures" could not apply more.

There are lots of things Africans could be doing for themselves. But let's not get so self-righteous as to pat ourselves on the back and say 'we've done our bit, now bugger off'.

The only thing more vile than such an attitude is to suggest that enslavement, segregation and racial supremacy are superior.

Al:

not sure if "physician" is the right word for the individual dispensing that kind of advice (unprotected sex with a virgin). i've read other reports categorizing these individuals as "tribal witch doctors" or something.

Nope .... the responsibility for growing and prospering rests solely on the shoulders of the African native peoples.

As an earlier commenter stated the biggest enemy is tribalism.

Until this world outlook is outgrown there will never be any change in the prospects for positive change.

For those of you who insist that it is your role to be your brothers keeper.... perhaps making an effort to end this root cause of tribalism would be a better use of your energy than the sanctimonious do gooder demands for ever increased financial sustenance.

All cultures are NOT equal.

Actually, ignorance of sanitation, ie. dirty hands is the biggest killer in Africa.

That's root cause of evil ... tribalism.

It is absolutely incompatible with a modern technologically driven world.

That Schweitzer quote reveals a terrible ignorance, inferiority is cultural not racial. 1952 was a very long time ago, in more than just years. I personally have met many black Africans who have come from mud huts and gone on to the finest universities in the world, they are as intelligent and civilized as anyone I've ever met. I have also met many Canadians of pure European stock who do not seem to have any of "the intellectual, mental or emotional abilities to equate or share in any of the functions of our civilization". (ALL left-wingers of course.)

Africa might be the big surprise of the 21st century. Europe went through a series of plagues, worse than the AIDS epidemic, in the 14th century and its civilization kept on rolling, from a historian's perspective the plagues were almost a good thing, creating an environment for progress and reducing a surplus population. On a human level the African AIDS plague is a terrible tragedy but, in the big picture, it means very little. Humanity will adapt over generations. People will continue to be born and die every day.

So: was South Africa a safer, healthier nation under apartheid?

Discuss.

-----

Here is a question that shall never be heard on a university campus.

(I only mention this because I would like to see the movie Indoctrinate U. A friend mentioned the movie after our discussions on Gilchrist being banned from Columbia...)

Tatty countercultural remnants and their acolytes make their pilgrimage to the football stadium to show their obeisance to yet another Great Cause. Dress code: jeans and a Che Guevara t-shirt. Sacraments: beer and pot.

Under the old Apartheid system, a lot of working age men left their farms and other rural homes to work in the mines. They lived in barracks in the mine areas, and used the services of prostitutes since they were away from home for 6 months at a time. Thus they caught AIDS and other STDs, which they then transmitted to their wives when they went back to the farm to visit or live. Apartheid surely did mot cause AIDs, but the racial pass laws which resulted in the living arrangements described above exacerbated its spread. South Africa really is the perfect storm for AIDS - poverty, ignorance and primitive medicine, combined with a modern transportation infrastructure to ensure a speedy spread.

To answer the original question - not really. The end of Apartheid coincided with the worsening spread of AIDs in Africa generally. It is possible that the Apartheid regime would have been able to organize a more draconian response (and I actually mean that in a good way) but really, I don't know what they could have done. You cannot outlaw screwing or superstitions (ok, it would help if the President wasn't a superstitous rube).

Doing the math with a total population of 47 million, that's 10% of SA's population infected with HIV which is catastrophic. I can't think of a more vacuous and irresponsible response than another "awareness" concert. God forbid that anyone would take responsible measures to treat HIV at this point in SA as an infectious disease like TB, impose serious measures to quarantine the infected, imprison those that refuse to change their behavior and protected the public.

Nothing is going to change the course of HIV in Africa until Africans take responsibility for their predatory and irresponsible sexual behavior which is inherent in the culture. White donors throwing money down that rat hole are deluding themselves.

Africa's biggest problem is that African self-government is not any less cruel than Boer Racist Oppression.

Give SA another 10-20 years and they'll match Mugabe's misery.

Stats are readily available on the incidence and intensity of AIDS in Africa.

African countries with predominantly Christian or Muslim populations have AIDS rates not much different than the rest of the world.

It's not that big of a leap to say the answer to AIDS would be to encourage a stronger moral code among its younger populations and that it would be worth articulating the reasons for the difference in incidence.

It all comes down to a question of personal responsibility, a concept that seems foreign to progressive secularism.

Well, it didn't take long to blame Bush for Africa's woes.

I have seen money pumped into Africa for over 50 years, nothing has changed except the fact that we used to be able to save them for a penny per day, now it's a dollar per day.

Healthier nation under apartheid? Indeed !

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but is not South Africa's political direction more toward the socialist model?

Ted, you are going to have to stop agreeing with me all the time. Its making me twitch.

Obviously there is no such thing as "racial" inferiority. If there's one thing that has been established beyond any doubt by the classical Western liberal tradition, that would be it. Individuals vary, environments vary, races do not.

One more thing that has been established beyond doubt, all cultural traditions are NOT equal. The biggest problem in South Africa (and Africa generally) is traditional magic. People don't believe in antibiotics etc. they believe in magic.

This leads to things like Al's mention of sex with a virgin as a cure for AIDS. It also makes for things like guys running across busy streets without looking. There's a recurring phenomenon of young black men being killed on highways because they run right out in front of traffic just like a rabbit. Happens all the time. They think they are invulnerable because of some magic ritual, so they just don't pay attention to the traffic. Interestingly, the ones that survive never seem to get it that the magic doesn't work.

You can't run a Western farm or factory if the guy in charge believes in stuff like that. He's liable to try fixing a broken tractor with magic, and when it doesn't work assume the guy from the next farm over has cursed him.

That's what goes on in South Africa these days. The only reason it didn't go on there pre-Mandela is because the government kept all the black people locked up in the Townships. Thus we find that whether South Africa is safer or not depends on what colour you are. Better for blacks than the townships, by far. Not so good for whites, they have to live with politicians who use magic to get things done.

Africa's problems today are solely the result of racism, imperialism and colonialism. Stop blaming the victims. AIDS is a disease created by whites to exterminate Africans, thus making it easier to steal their mineral wealth. Advocating the use of condoms in nothing more than a genocide to prevent Africans from reproducing. Having sex with child virgins to cure AIDS? It's worth a try.

...not sure if "physician" is the right word for the individual dispensing that kind of advice...

Oh, boy, you are still measuring 3d world by Canadian standards... Indeed, Canada is the stupidest country on Earth!

It is about standards. Their standard of phys is someone with a golden ring and glasses, dispensing medical advise about moon phases, white virgins and baboon tails. Your standard is different. That's why I will never vote for a party, who plans to allow foreign doctors to practice in Canada without formal training.

...AIDS is a disease created by whites to exterminate Africans...

Piss off, moron! AIDS is a disease, that existed in apes of Kongo and finally spilled into human population when a hunter has been beaten by an infected ape in 50s or 60s IIRC. The scientists managed recently to trace the virus to a particular family of apes that still lives.

Idiot! Whites don't need Africa with its endless infectious diseases spread by water, insects, animals and present in soil. If whites only wanted to commit genocide, they would have explicitly done so. Instead we tried missionaries who mostly got eaten. The continent has to be sealed and left to its own fate.

Africa's problems today are solely the result of racism, imperialism and colonialism

Sock puppet.

Mystery Meat, you have convinced me of the error of my ways, sir and/or ma'am. I'm going to run out and get me some magic beans to make my fortune! ~:D

Don't you guys know satire when you see it? Jeeze!

So: was South Africa a safer, healthier nation under apartheid?

Discuss.

-----

Before the fall of apartheid they didn't take statistics on crime for blacks who lived in the transvaal or the orange free state. I assume there was less crime recorded. However, there are more people now and the government serves all of it's citizens (however poorly) so we see higher crime statistics.

The Apartheid course at Queen's University was very hands off course, we made a point of not focusing on the negatives of self governance by those who are not self sufficient. It was eerie. All the other arts courses I took there (I'm an engineer) were very much extensions of Marx' manifesto, but in apartheid history we ignored the collective betterment of society and talked about self determination. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

I work for a company from SA, my Ex is from SA and I've done my homework. South Africans are better off on average, but the exceptional people are trapped. The exceptional blacks in the previous system were plucked and sent to exceptional schools. Now they are raped before puberty as a "cure for aids".

Safer - Depends, less so for the whites around the cape, more so for the blacks from Soweto.
Healthier - Depends, less so for the whites of the cape, more so for the blacks around the coast, much less so for blacks in the Transvaal.

Nation? - South Africa was not a nation before the end of Apartheid. It was a collection of Brits and Hollanders who believed that black meant subhuman. Strangely it's the same way I think of quebec. It's not a nation, just French speaking people who believe that being not-french is akin to being subhuman.

If you want to see the future of South Africa just look at Zimbabwe. My project manager was a Rhodesian who was working in Zambia, he returned to Rhodesia and was stopped the the boarder, his family farm was given to native farmers (whatever that means, he was 4th generation).

Oh, and Zimbabwe has no crop this year, both maize and wheat failed en mass. They need 400,000 tonnes of wheat and they'll only get 150,000.

Live Free or Die? Maybe the two aren't mutually exclusive.

AIDS awareness is still needed, especially when you have AIDS ignorance being preached by people at the highest levels.

S. African bishop: Condoms tainted with AIDS
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20999747/

That bishop personifies pure evil, IMHO.

I don't believe the Brits and Dutch thought of the blacks as subhuman in South Africa; they were just aware of the blacks' behaviour in their own neck of the woods and didn't find it conducive to their own way of life - meaning, the blacks treated each other like subhumans, and the Brits and Dutch didn't want to live in that type of environment. South Africa is crime ridden, and who are the criminals - Blacks!!! Now nowhere in South Africa is it safe to live - great! The world bitched about apartheid in South Africa, but as soon as that changed, South Africa went straight to the dogs - and well, not a peep out of all those dumbasses who had jumped on the bandwagon now. Bloody typical.

AIDS isn't just a disease; it is a plague. People can think that AIDS is preventable and it is one's own fault, but in reality, the decision to contract AIDS is often not in the hands of the victims, but in the hands of the perpetrators.

Next up from the rightwing-The economic benefits of slavery!

Prisons are "safe" too. Canadians STILL do not understand liberty. Only a Canadian or a European degenerate could ask such a question.

Next up from the rightwing-The economic benefits of slavery!

It is the leftist retrogrades that promote 21st century slavery through unfettered illegal immigration. Liberal idiots [redundancy] love exploiting third world peasants.

There is no economic benefit in slavery, it's a dead end.
There is economic benefit in colonial government keeping idiots in line until they are a tad more educated than a voodoo doll.
Oh, how tired I am of the idiots, specially of those in government and UN!

There is something in Marx theory that makes it possible to explain it to weak-minded. It must be the simplicity of the statement: steal from the rich and waste...

People can think that AIDS is preventable and it is one's own fault, but in reality, the decision to contract AIDS is often not in the hands of the victims, but in the hands of the perpetrators.

The reality is AIDS/HIV is the most preventable disease amongst the big killers. As stated here already AIDS is spread almost without exception through irresponsible behavior [not using condoms]. You’ll notice liberal idiots [redundancy] never point out homosexual promiscuity as one of the leading causes of AIDS in the western world. Why are they silent? Because the gayhadists [among other leftist miscreants] control the leftist movement and sexual responsibility is outright rejected by these dimwitted sexual deviants.

Awareness, dialogue, chanting, thinking nice thoughts, empty moralizing, take two bromides and call me in the morning, victimism, sloganeering, widdle wed wibbons ....

Give Peace a Chance.

Give Dissolution a Chance!

Joanne,

I must respectfully disagree with you. If in the same room you have a sink from Whites and one for Blacks, and the whites made the room it's because the whites don't want to be in any contact with the "dirty" blacks. If white people build a bridge for themselves, and a second one from the blacks, it is because they want to avoid contact with the "dangerous" blacks. When whites train their dogs to attack the blacks (which they did, because I've seen it), it's because they have no respect for the lives of blacks.

The whites treated the blacks as subhuman, or at least sub-white. Nelson Mandela, who has unfortunately aligned himself with leftist idiots, was a terrorist for the same reason that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were terrorists. To rid yourselves of an oppressive ruler who has no respect for your life, you must have no respect for their lives.

And before you try to push the issue, try to find out about the massacres of blacks in 1960s South Africa, and ask yourself if that's is less terror than Mandela's MK wing of the ANC blowing up army barracks and boarder gates.

Some people on the right have the same tendencies as those on the left. You are anti-black-led-South Africa because of the leftist idiots you hate who pushed for the end of apartheid. As someone who loves freedom, and who has written about loving freedom on your page, I would expect more sympathy for those who fought against all odds for it.

Jon

"AIDS isn't just a disease; it is a plague. People can think that AIDS is preventable and it is one's own fault, but in reality, the decision to contract AIDS is often not in the hands of the victims, but in the hands of the perpetrators."

How exactly do you contract AIDS? Breathing? Nonsense. AIDS is primarily a sexually transmitted disease. Victims of rape are obviously inncocent. Likewise the small, small percentage of infected blood transfusion vixtims are innocent.

That leaves people who have unprotected sex when they know better. If they are not taught, shame on the government. If they do it anyway, they are the guilty party, not victims any longer. Irrational beleif in magic is not my responsibility.

Shame on the Joannes who allow AIDS to continue.
enough

......Nelson Mandela, who has unfortunately aligned himself with leftist idiots, was a terrorist for the same reason that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were terrorists.

I'm not a Mandela fan but to characterize him as a terrorist along with Washington and Jefferson is revisionist history at best. Based on your other reasonable statements I'm surprised you could reach such a conclusion.

Education in poor SA is so far behind our standard, as previous posters have said. I was there in 2003, and all these crazy stories are real.

Their experience with rape, and the justification for abortion, is completely different than our society's feminist agenda of "abortion-as-birth-control", i/e the missing generation which justifies immigration.

Rape in SA is extremely common - it is a tool of suppression and subjugation. And this is not a Muslim country, where rape has even more sinister consequences for women and their families.

Yet Dr. Barnard performed the first heart transplant in Cape Town. General Smuts helped set the table for the new world order after WW2.

There is great hope in SA. We should all remain hopeful they can find their way out of the shadow of apartheid, and in particular resist the evils of communism. So many of the ANC veterans were trained as freedom fighters by the Soviets. Thabo Mbeki was a full fledged communist while attending Oxford. His leadership is questionable and worrisome, particularly in light of the disaster that has become Zimbabwe (I wonder if Bob Marley anticipated such horrors would come from the transition from Rhodesia, in which he was a propoganda tool)

Madiba, while working to broker peace between the white corporate masters, international secret services and his ANC party, has made some questionable allegiances, but he did build a nation. From the back of a outhouse/cave in a lime pit he worked in for decades. Respect, people.

"It is the leftist retrogrades that promote 21st century slavery through unfettered illegal immigration."
This is such specious didactics. The EMPLOYERS are ultimately responsible for the exploitation of these people. Similarly, employers exploit people in jurisdictions with inadequate labour protections. These employers are NOT noted liberal confederates.

This is such specious didactics. The EMPLOYERS are ultimately responsible for the exploitation of these people.

As far as here in America it is the liberal idiots that run state legislatures and municipalities that refuse to enforce immigration laws that translate into more votes and constituents for the socialists. Of course you’ll have employers that use illegal labor but it is liberals who promote this practice and squeal racism anytime you mention that latinos must follow US immigration laws like everyone else. The liberal welfare state is also a huge contributor to illegal immigration, much more so than all the employers in the US combined.

SA was safer under the rule of apartheid and the white government. Not because of the racial segregation .... just because society was orderly and rule of law maintained.

Had the HIV epidemic got underway during this period the blacks would have been just as vulnerable.
Of course the argument and claims that it was a conspiracy of the whites would have been much louder.

As for the future of SA ..... bleak! Remember Tribalism?
Hand in hand with superstition the tribal culture is totally vulnerable to the influence of the leftists. Mugabe is just ahead of his time!

This is such specious didactics.

Tell me, who is promoting the wave of muslim immigrants to western Eurabia [aka Europe], is it liberal idiots [redundancy] or businesses?

Good topic!! God I hate the word "Aids." Couldn't they change the term to "The Great Equalizer." or "The Sword of Gideon." Nature takes care of all excesses. Upset are we?? So am I!!

Given that AIDS is a totally preventable disease, I would say that Africa's greatest enemy is its lack of education and the low priority their governments put on wide public education.

"Tell me, who is promoting the wave of muslim immigrants to western Eurabia [aka Europe], is it liberal idiots [redundancy] or businesses?" You were blaming the economic exploitation of illegal immigrants on Liberals. If you are going to adopt an authoritative posture, try being correct.

"refuse to enforce immigration laws that translate into more votes and constituents for the socialists"

Um... exactly how many illegal immigrants do you think vote in any given election????

Why don't we just immigrate all the south africans to canada. Im sure exposure to our plentiful social programs and a welfare cheque would fix all of their cultural problems. Have you ever been to an african restaurant in toronto and seen how they eat? Puts alot of their problems into perspective

So: was Germany a safer, healthier, more economically sound and politically stable nation under Hitler than before Hitler?

Discuss.

__________________

And on a related subject: what word is the conservative equivalent of leftard?

Yes, South Africa was a safer, healthier nation under apartheid. I know, I've lived there, and have visited countless times over the decades.

And Zimbabwe was a much more prosperous nation under the previous regime. In fact when we left Zimbabwe (then Rhodesia), the Rhodesian dollar was worth more than the Canadian dollar.

Anyone care to guess what the Zim dollar is worth now?

But many people, especially liberals, tend to prefer to rewrite history than to accept these basic historical truths.

Thank you Kate for posing the question that no one ever wants to pose.

Anyone who thinks SA is going to right itself is naive.

The patterns occurring in SA are more or less identical to those that occurred in Zimbabwe, most of them not reported in the press.

The number of farmers being killed in SA is rapidly on the rise. You want a canary in the coal mine for predicting that an African country is going down the toilet, that's a good gone.

Also Mbeki has refused to take a tough and clear stance on Mugabe. How can that be? If SA is supposed to be the shining example of democracy in Africa, how can its leader not take a strong stance against the thug to his north?

The ANC will win majorities for the next many many elections in SA, absolutely guaranteed. The party will become more corrupt and more power hungry than it already is.

The people waiting in the wings to replace Mbeki are little Mugabes yearning to become big Mugabes.

It's only a matter of time...

Now of course what they teach your kids in school is quite different....but then liberals and other left-wing types never want people to know the truth.

South African and Zimbabwe have always been viewed by lefties and liberals through the simple lens of black versus white.

For anyone wishing to vote with their wallets, there is a mutual fund that holds stock in companies that specifically compete with South African companies on the grounds that they'll do well when SA finally goes down the tubes. Probably as close to a sure thing as anything on the market.

Odd @ 1:55 - the word you're looking for is "Conservative".

Safer I not likely.
"in 2002, South Africa experienced 114.8 murders per 100,000 inhabitants, the world's highest murder-rate and around five times higher than that of the second-highest country, Brazil. As of 1998, South Africa led the world, although by a smaller margin, in reported murders and robberies. A 2001 report by the Institute for Security Studies concluded that "South Africa has high but manageable levels of property crime but an extraordinary high level of violent crime."

AIDS is lowest in African countries with a strong Christian and Muslim influence.

Those are the facts.

I don't see that apartheid made any difference one way or the other in regards to AIDS; was Botha hiding in the closet in everyone's hut or hovel, making sure that they used condoms?

"So: was South Africa a safer, healthier nation under apartheid?"

Perhaps a better question might be, would South Africa (or all of Africa for that matter) be a healthier nation without the Catholic Church (or any church for that matter)

digitaljournal.com/article/233734/South_African_Bishop_Condoms_tainted_with_AIDS

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3176982.stm

"If you're not "aware" of AIDS by now, is it safe to say you're pretty much retarded?"

How aware of AIDS were women living under Taliban rule in Afghanistan? It's hard to stay on top of health concerns when you can be stoned to death for leaving the house without a male relative tagging along, y'know.

(Maybe that counts as "cultural retardation".)

TJ, re your 2:03 comment: Kate is away; K. Shaidle is the author of the post.

Um... exactly how many illegal immigrants do you think vote in any given election????

No one knows. What we do know is a leftist dreg running for political office in San Diego was caught on tape at a latino gathering encouraging illegals to vote and violate our laws. I do concede that illegals probably do not vote in large numbers but in close elections a few hundred could be the difference. Also keep in mind, the number of illegals in America is roughly the total population of Canada. If 10% of the illegals are violating our voting laws [there are somewhere between 20-30 million illegals in the US] that's 2-3 million people, more than enough to swing a vote. Also the democrats are doing their best to see to it that illegals can vote by giving them drivers licenses, which is all the ID needed to vote; usually no ID is required so the donks can continue to cheat. You'll notice the only ones opposed to showing ID when voting are the leftist miscreants.

You were blaming the economic exploitation of illegal immigrants on Liberals. If you are going to adopt an authoritative posture, try being correct.

That's a non sequitur. Try answering the question.

You were blaming the economic exploitation of illegal immigrants on Liberals. If you are going to adopt an authoritative posture, try being correct.

While you attempt to figure out who’s promoting the massive Muslim influx into Eurabia let me answer your non sequitur. When companies hire illegals below min wage laws by definition they’re exploiting them, no one disputes this. The business lobby is merely a faction of the Republican/Democrat Party. It is the democrats who’ve adopted a policy of open borders and shameless pandering to illegals. You have a political party in America that has as one of its platforms the direct exploitation of third worlders; notice the same disregard for our immigration laws isn’t extended to non-latinos.

Sorry, my thanks to Kathy Shaidle for the post and for posing the question.

TJ: What about my question. Don't I get your same gratitude? In the case of 1930s Germany, "many people, especially liberals, tend to prefer to rewrite history than to accept some basic historical truths" there as well. Won't you thank me too for posing the question that no one ever wants to pose?

I'll repeat it:

-----------------------

So: was Germany a safer, healthier, more economically sound and politically stable nation under Hitler than before Hitler?

Discuss.

-----------------------

Surely, my question was just as valuable and daring and intelligent as Kathy's. Surely, my question is just as free of racism as Kathy's.

AIDS is a moral question, one of personal responsibility.

The state can try to promote condom programs, but it's biggest cost is treating the unfortunate results of a pursuit of momentary pleasure and saddling everybody else who had nothing to do with the pleasure with picking up the cost of the pain.

Hardly fair considering most of the spread is a voluntary act and that nobody else in society forced the person to perform the act which resulted in the infection.

What compassion is shown toward the taxpayer by the person who performed these immoral acts?

...i feel a concert coming on...

Canadian women support immigration from Africa because Caandian women tend to be fat and the African man is attracted to fat white women. The sows love the attention.

That explains why so many Africans, despite having AIDS infection rates up to SIXTY times higher than Canadians (source: CBC), are allowed into this country. Because fat chicks like the attention they get from foreign AIDS carriers.

To "Odd...", I won't take such silly bait.

Come up with something better.

I have lived in Africa, and I know a bit about what has gone on there from first hand experience.

This discussion isn't about Germany. It's about the mess that is Africa today.

Several posters have pointed out that South Africa is going to the dogs. I'll add that the ANC government has also enacted racist laws and is overseeing a decline in productivity. There's an argument to be made that the high crime rate is encouraged as a way to get whites to leave. Farmland is being bought up by the government at prices they dictate and handed over to blacks, mostly then going to waste. A European outfit that monitors these things has declared the killing of white farmers to meet the definition of genocide; interesting when the governemnt is buying them out.

Meanwhile the west is still congratulating itself (Brian Mulroney) on supplying the pressure to get rid of the Apartheid government.

I'm not blaming Mulroney. Apartheid was in itself a self-defeating system, morals aside. Mandela seemed so jolly nice, but the fact is a bunch of Russian trained commies took over. Read the party publications and you'll see M'Beki refers to his political opposition as, "the enemy." The ANC is planning on staying.

After Zimbabwe, the west should have learned not to force the dismantling of working systems. Push for a certain amount of change certainly but do NOT hand over power to random claimants. Black South Africans are starting to say they had it better under Apartheid - and they did NOT have it very good under that system.

Gosh Andrew, that is harsh indeed.

First hand white experience or first hand black experience? That's the point. From a white perspective, no question it is worse now, just like from a white Christian perspective, no question it was better under Hitler. Just too bad if you are black or Jewish, respectively, eh?

set you free, of course [sarc on] you know that the unfortunates who choose to engage in dangerous sexual behaviours become VICTIMS as soon as the worst consequences of their unwise choices become evident.

Victim status then relieves these "victims" of any responsibility towards the rest of us, who are left to underwrite the huge expenses, in all kinds of ways, which are a direct result of their choice to be irresponsible.

Logically, the often self-chosen decision of these "victims" to be irresponsible should mean that the rest of us, who have to pay for their choice, are victims. Right?

Not on your life, because "the rest of us" are not considered to be a minority and, haven't you noticed, only "minorities"--the more "exotic" and outside the norm, the better--are protected by the Charter and deserve "rights" for their "outside the envelope" behaviour.

It's enough to make a sane, ordinary, responsible Canadian weep.

So: was Germany a safer,

6,000,000 dead

healthier,

yes if you were not one of the 6,000,000

more economically sound
no wheelbarrels needed to buy food

and politically stable nation

all other parties taken out and shot just like stalin would do.

Odd What Some Conservatives Think

Not compared to lefties, that ability to hold 2 totally contradictory views because they make you feel emotionally actualized is amazing.

So: was Germany a safer, healthier, more economically sound and politically stable nation under Hitler than before Hitler?

The short answer is no.

Given that my grandfather was putting down mutinous sailors in 1919 Kiel, not likely. The Weimar Republic with its pitched street battles and political murders was hardly the example of a stable society.

1929 brought hyper-inflation with currency having the same worth as toilet paper. I can still recall my grandmother telling stories of buying a loaf of bread which cost some $4 billion Reichsmarks. Similar to modern day Zimbabwe.

If Adolf didn't come along, some other radicals surely would have. One need only think of the Communist government of Munich which lasted a few weeks, replete with a minister straight out of the asylum! For further reading check out the Spartacist League.

I believe the Weimar republic is a case study of how a democracy goes completely off the rails. Given that German GDP back then was ~75 million compared to 120 Billion in reparations payments for WWI; I'd say you had the ideal conditions for radicalism.

But then comparing Weimar Germany with modern day SA is probably the wrong yardstick.

The AIDs pandemic is a phenomena of disease tied to specific behaviours.

Rather the disastrous political conditions of Weimar and the Adolf follow on, were a direct consequence of the decision to best the colonial powers of the day on the field of battle.

As the Kaiser remarked to his generals of the day, upon signing the mobilisation order:

"You will regret this, gentlemen."

Yes, just an ocean of tears and rivers of blood.

I don't think Mandela had any idea of the depth of the problem that was rearing its head back in the 1990s. They were too busy trying to put the sword into apartheid.

The ANC more or less used similar methods to the old Spartacist League of Germany. If you didn't support their aims, whether white or black, you would be targeted back in the 80s and early 90s.

Once the ANC got power, they spent most of their time consolidating that power. AIDs with its silent creep was not even on the agenda.

greenmamba has eloquently written all that needs to be said on this topic. My hat off to you.

"Gosh Andrew, that is harsh indeed."

Harsh, severe, but never untrue or unjust. That is the way of the true conservative.

My understanding is that the African nations that preach abstinence and faithfulness to one's spouse are having the most success at curbing the spread of HIV/AIDS. It is the ones that think unbridled sexual behaviour is fine as long as you use a condom (provided by the West) that are continuing to suffer the most.

The message of abstinence was shouted down at a recent AIDS Conference in Toronto. This gives the appearance that the AIDS awareness movement is more about the preservation of sexual licentiousness at all costs than saving lives.

Here's a good trick to check if you are talking to a liberal at your next cocktail party.

Ask them if they think Mugabe is a racist. If they turn and run away because they don't want to answer the question then you know you have definitely found a liberal.

Apollyon,

Revisionist History?

Please don't throw out claims like that without backing them up. The fact of the matter is South Africa had a revolution against the same Europeans as North America. You happened to have lived in a era when you saw the changes happen in Southern Africa (SA, Zim, Namibia) and you happened to have only heard the stories of how great the American revolutionaries were. They are one in the same especially for people like me (24 yrs old) who did not experience the end of apartheid, the end of the French Monarchy, the end of Britain in the 13 colonies, or the end of Nazi Germany.

You have to understand that the great reverence I have for Thomas Jefferson, I quote him as often as possible, is analogous to the reverence I have for Mandela. As conservatives, libertarians and Mill-style liberals, we shouldn't be debating on which regime was safer, we should be debating how to make the world FREER TO SELF DETERMINE. Blacks, Indians (from India), and Coloureds were not allowed voting until the fall of apartheid, something anyone who dares call themselves conservative should oppose.

Jefferson (and Washington) Freed American from British tyranny, Mandela freed South Africa from Boer and British tyranny. You're revising history yourself if you think there wasn't turbulence after the American revolution, the United Empire Loyalists fled it, just like TJ (and most people I work for, and my Ex) fled SA.

Oh ya, the turbulence is actually ongoing, both in America and South Africa. It's just that South Africa has had the right of self governance for 10 years, while America is damn near 232.

So, when it comes to Nazi Germany, I don't care if the average person was safer. I care about whether people were allowed to freely follow the path of their choice, while not obstructing the paths of others. To be born free, to live free and to die free are the goals of any free society.

Oh look, the trolls are out. Funny how they just fling poo without reading what people have written.

Hey Mr. Odd! (apt name, that) If you look back to my comment at 11:43 AM today. Its pretty much word for word what you said, in spite of the non-sequiter Nazi reference. Scary, eh?

The world is much brighter if you pull your head out of your ass and look around y'know. Smells better too.

Jon, based on your post I must have misunderstood your comment I quoted. My apologies.

I care about whether people were allowed to freely follow the path of their choice, while not obstructing the paths of others. To be born free, to live free and to die free are the goals of any free society.

Well said.

AIDS does not just belong to homosexuals; it exists in the lives of victims of rape - women, child, and man; it exists in the lives of victims of men and women who go outside a relationship and sexual-orientation - bisexuals, contract AIDS, and then give it to their partners; it exists in the lives of victims of adultery; it exists in the lives of victims who receive tainted blood transfusions; it exists in the lives of victims born with AIDS; it exists in the lives of victims who have sexual relations with people who knowingly have AIDS, but do not abstain; it exists in the lives of victims who use and/or share tainted needles; it exists in the lives of victims who fall into the category of 'none of the above'; and the list goes on and on.

Certainly AIDS could end tomorrow if people refrained from sexual relations until marriage and then did not go outside the marriage, but mankind lives in the gutter, and unfortunately, many people, including you and me, do not have the ability to refrain from becoming a victim.

"Shame on the Joannes who allow AIDS to continue."
by enough

Shame on you 'enough' for being ignorant. You need to wake up and realize you live in a world where your chances of contracting AIDS are not slim to none because you use protection; anyone can fall victim to AIDS - be careful, God has a way of teaching us lessons - thankfully God is merciful.

Joanne
"To the present time, 75 to 85 percent of AIDS cases reported are related to homosexual activity, promiscuous heterosexual sex and IV drug abuse. AIDS stubbornly refuses to spread into the population in general, even 20 years after its discovery, despite dire warnings to the contrary.

These diseases are acquired directly through the sexual behavior homosexual activists are asking Americans to legally endorse and protect. Yet, as professor Jerome Lejeune of Descartes University, Paris, says of AIDS: "Only God can truly pardon the one who violates His laws; man pardons at times; Nature never pardons at all: She is not a person." The brutal consequences of attempting to break the natural law are not bigoted or hateful, nor are those, like Dr. Laura, Cal Thomas or Gary Morella, who try to point out the dangers and simple truths.

We are seeing the natural consequences of violating nature's laws now. "
From http://www.marysremnant.org/Friends/DBK/BKHomAids.html

greenmamba - great analysis of the SA situation.

Mandela is another example of the west's naivete in the saints that they annoint.

Face it, we left the healthy and the innocent down when way back at the beginning against good medical practice we refused to treat HIV as we should have and did with TB or syphilis. The medical community and politicians caved to the pc culture.

HIV is now a life style choice with no shame in contracting it and hardly any consequences in passing it along. The planet's navel gazing sheeple seem satisfied with this and will be until a new strain appears that is totally drug resistant and as virlulent as hell.

It's the same crowd that is tolerant of Islam's terrorists, can't quite call them the homicidal Koran based maniacs that they are, for fear of shaming Muslims who damn well ought of be ashamed. It will take the next Big One from Islam to gob smack the passive into reality.

"I care about whether people were allowed to freely follow the path of their choice, while not obstructing the paths of others. To be born free, to live free and to die free are the goals of any free society." by Jon

There you have it - people being allowed to freely follow the path of their choice; unfortunately, the choices of so many do obstruct the paths of others, and herein, the problems lie.

When non-violent people, regardless of color, live in a society in a state of fear, they may be born free and die free, but they certainly are not living free.

Everyone knew that the end of apartheid would mean the end of the rule of the white man in South Africa because of the sheer number of blacks who would be voting for black candidates, regardless, of their platforms. Now no man lives free in South Africa; talk about biting off one's nose to spite their face.

Appolyon,

Sometimes I can be a bit obtuse. I think it's a shame that SA is going communist rather than free market. I guess Mugabe's stupidity hasn't scared Mbeki enough. Or maybe SA poor is too poor to realise that the man offering equality for everyone is really looking for power for himself.

Discuss?

OK…

You, madam, are a shitdisturber, without the redeeming qualities of a gardener or a gong farmer. You use a straw man question as a “whipping boy”, not to redeem, but to demean. As expressed, this question does nothing but tarnish the reputations of some who would be better off keeping their mouth shut. It does nothing to better the situation in South Africa.

You want to be your brother’s keeper, Kathy? Then suggest how to do so more in keeping with your claimed religion. Vade retro me, Satana.

I agree with alan @ 6:18. It may be harsh but if aids was treated like TB (i.e. travel restrictions, manditory treatments, etc) maybe it might not be such an epidemic.

For the cradle of human civilization, Africa seems to have regressed in development. For my entire lifetime there have been untold quantities of money, technology and food sent to Africa and yet they are still in the stone age. Are those nasty European colonists are to blame? Well just look at what used to be a pretty developed country called Rhodesia and tell me how the (black) Africans have done with it.

The solution? Damned if I know but you can't blame it on whitey or Mr Bush.

"An estimated 24.5 million adults and children
were living with HIV in sub-Saharan Africa at the end of 2005.

During that year, an estimated 2 million people died from AIDS. The epidemic has left behind some 12 million orphaned African children."

http://www.avert.org/subaadults.htm

alan, I do agree, and the wages of sin are death. I just feel it is foolhardy for people to think that because they refrain from immoral and/or unprotected sexual relations that AIDS will not knock on their door.

According to the United States Justice Department, a woman in America is raped every two minutes, and personally I believe it would be even higher because women tend not to report rapes because of shame and for some inexplicable reason they blame themselves. Every single one of those women are terrified that their perpetrator may have been HIV positive, and that they may in turn, through no fault of their own, contracted HIV.

Yes, you and I believe AIDS is preventable, but us and people of life-mind do not live in a vacuum. Condoms are not the answer; morality is the answer.

I've always found it incredible that the same country which used to jail people for spitting on the sidewalk (tuberculosis used to be pretty much 100% fatal) refused to even take the most obvious public health measure of closing gay bath houses in San Francisco in the 1970's and 1980's, which lead inevitably to the endemic AIDS infestation we currently "enjoy".

Our own idiot country will hospitalize you involuntarily if you get diagnosed with TB to this day. There are a number of diseases that this is the public health action for. You get isolation, in the hospital, no choice, under armed guard if required.

AIDS, which until quite recently was invariably fatal, is not one of them. Rest assured this was a political decision, not a public health one.

My only explanation for this is that the "progressive" elements in our political establishment decided it was too much trouble to do the right thing, given that it was only a bunch of homos at stake. More votes to be had defending noble gay activists against the horrible repressive Conservatives [boo, hiss!] trying to treat HIV as a fatal disease and not some kind of lifestyle choice.

Net result, HIV in straight high school students in Toronto. Awesome leadership there progressives. Way to go!

"anyone can fall victim to AIDS....many people, including you and me, do not have the ability to refrain from becoming a victim.
".... not true at all, Joanne, unless you are an infant born to an AIDS mother where choice and behavior aren't at issue. AIDS is a 100% behavioral disease among adults. It's not like you'll get it as unsuspecting person like with TB on an airplane. You have recreational sex or you don't, you have unprotected sex or you don't, you share dirty needles or you don't, every individual has a choice.

I don't warm eat food with mayonnaise that has been sitting out in the sun, do you? Germ theory isn't that complicated even for the illiterate.

Joanne,

Once again I must disagree with you. Morality may be your answer, but it certainly isn't the right answer for Africa. Condoms keep me STD free, but I don't want children, people in Africa do.

You see, they have no social safety net, and most people live hand to mouth, so people are reliant on one of their many children to gain enough wealth to provide for them in old age.

No amount of morality will feed a feeble old man or woman.

Mugabe, the model for planet of the apes.

These benefit type concerts are almost exclusively attended by rowdy lefties using some kind of feel good cause to indulge in warm fuzzy paganistic decadence.

Also a great opportunity to love themselves publicly.

These are disturbed folk.

Africa is a toilet in mid flush ... to late to do anything about it now.

HIV is now a life style choice with no shame in contracting it and hardly any consequences in passing it along. The planet's navel gazing sheeple seem satisfied with this and will be until a new strain appears that is totally drug resistant and as virlulent as hell.

Penny, its already happened. In the gay bathhouses of San Francisco a super strain was recently born.

AIDS has become a leftwing racket just like abortion. Both are big business and the leftwing freaks will fight tooth and nail to maintain them. The leftwing degenerates here in California passed legislation [voted on by the idiot left leaning citizenry] to allow school administrators to take a child to get an abortion without consulting the parents. School nurses aren’t allowed to give kids an aspirin without parental consent. This is utter madness; this is liberalism.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Sometimes I can be a bit obtuse. I think it's a shame that SA is going communist rather than free market. I guess Mugabe's stupidity hasn't scared Mbeki enough. Or maybe SA poor is too poor to realise that the man offering equality for everyone is really looking for power for himself.

Jon, we’re on the same page. Africa is a shame and communism will destroy the continent. Zimbabwe used to be one of the breadbaskets of Africa when they had white farmers running the agriculture but that didn’t sit well with liberal sensibilities. Liberals needed to see the racist whites purged from their lands and have them given to the righteous black peasants and cronies of Mugabe. Well, now Zimbabwe is starving but hey, liberals feel good about themselves, the blacks got rid of the white racists and that’s what matters. Starving Africans? Who cares says the liberal idiot [redundancy], what time is American Idol on?

...anyone can fall victim to AIDS....

Yeah, it's like catching a cold or breaking an ankle; can happen to anyone.

Apollyon writes, "The leftwing degenerates here in California passed legislation [voted on by the idiot left leaning citizenry] to allow school administrators to take a child to get an abortion without consulting the parents. School nurses aren’t allowed to give kids an aspirin without parental consent."

This has actually been the state of affairs in the Toronto school board for at least a decade. Most people have no idea that this is the way things are. Of course, to discuss such indelicate and unpleasant matters, which cast liberals as less than principled, is enough to make one a social degenerate in "polite" company. The board, of course, keeps mum.

Apollyon also quotes and writes, " '...anyone can fall victim to AIDS...'

"Yeah, it's like catching a cold or breaking an ankle; can happen to anyone."

I, too, abhor such thinking: it's ludicrous. But it drives public policy in Canada.

Lookout, liberals [sensible democrats excluded] are truly mentally ill. Their positions are so illogical and their actions so preposterous you can only wonder how anyone takes them seriously.

In San Francisco at a local university we have a few leftist tree hugging hermaphrodites camping out in a tree to protest the cutting down of that tree, which is needed to make room for new facilities. These leftist miscreants are literally crapping from trees and making fools of themselves. Recently there was a big college football game there that was broadcast nationally and these degenerate hippies in trees were shown to the nation. The parents must be mortified.

I wouldn't be surprised if that Schweitzer quote was spurious. Does anyone have source for it? People tend to have a habit of attaching bigoted quotes to famous names; there are phony anti-Semitic quotes attached to the name Benjamin Franklin and phony anti-Catholic quotes attached to the name Abraham Lincoln. I'm not saying categorically that Schweitzer didn't say it, but I would like more evidence.

The African is my brother but he is my younger brother by several centuries.
Albert Schweitzer

Apollyon, it's nice to have you on board.

I have leftie friends--really. Your comment on mental illness really strikes a chord: try as I might to excuse them, their collective lack of knowledge (being willing to trust the MSM, they're woefully ill informed on matters of grave importance), intellectual inconsistencies, and, yes, moral cowardice truly strain our bond. (So, even if they're not actually mentally ill, they're deluded hypocrites.)

They prefer to avoid any real debate, which is maybe the only way for us to remain friends. (Though, at times, I think we become more like acquaintances.) Sad.

Thank you Lookout. I got fed up with the politics here in the US and decided to check out what's goin' on up north. I see liberalism is as much a problem in your nation as ours. Too bad we can't ship all our leftist ingrates to Cuba, N. Korea and Zimbabwe.

re the "quote" from albert schweitzer - this link seems to add some context:

http://www.schweitzer.org/english/diverse/asefaq.htm

Lookout, I can empathize. I live in a liberal bastion so many of my friends are liberal. Fortunately they have thick skin for the most part but they border on clinical insanity in their political thinking.

"So: was South Africa a safer, healthier nation under apartheid?"

It's a bloody shame Relapsed can ask such a stupid question and have so many people still consider her worth reading.

Apollyon at October 2, 2007 9:45 PM

"Too bad we can't ship all our leftist ingrates to Cuba, N. Korea and Zimbabwe."
Too bad we leftists can't ship all the right-wing-nuts to Iraq and Afghaistan, they seem in love with those places.

Don't want an STD? Don't have sex with others.

Albatross, the US Liberal Idiots fawn over communist thugs like Castro and his little wannabe in Venezuela- Hugo Chavez- so I don’t think they’d mind it too much, especially if there’s a Starbucks.

Let me ask you, our liberal idiots [redundancy] have driven around for decades in their jalopies with bumperstickers that say Free Tibet. What liberal kumbaya BS has ever helped Tibetans? Bush and the “warmongers” have freed 50 million in Iraq and Afghanistan. The greatest hope for the oppressed worldwide is American boots on their soil.

Wow Apollyon whatever you're smoking it's best you put it down walk away, you're delusional. Thirty eight hundred dead US servicemen and how many tens if not hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. Then of course there are the scores of tortured and abused innocent civilians. Blackwater doesn't even know how many people they have murdered. You actually think Iraq is better with the occupying US forces on Iraqi soil? Keep telling yourself that, but don't ever forget it was the WMD that the US sold the war on.

Thirty eight hundred dead US servicemen and how many tens if not hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis.

Nearly 3000 Americans murdered in one morning, more than were killed at Pearl Harbor. I'll respond to the rest of your leftists drivel tomorrow and I already know what you're going to say in response to my comment so I'll respond to that too. You've been told what to think and you've probably never had an original thought in your adult life; you bedwetting leftists are so painfully ignorant that if you had any shame you'd be embarrassed.

By the way ignoramus, read Security Council resolution 1441 to find out what the war was based on and then read about the resolution that Clintonista passed while President calling for regime change in Iraq.

Albatross, my dear bedwetting leftist, you'll enjoy this........

Cowboys & Indians

Three strangers strike up a conversation in the airport passenger lounge in Bozeman, Montana, awaiting their flights.

One is an American Indian passing through from Lame Deer.

Another is a Cowboy on his way to Billings for a livestock show.

The third passenger is a fundamentalist Arab student, newly arrived at Montana State University from the Middle East.

Their discussion drifts to their diverse cultures. Soon, the two Westerners learn that the Arab is a devout, radical Muslim and the conversation falls into an uneasy lull.

The cowboy leans back in his chair, crosses his boots on a magazine table and tips his big sweat-stained hat forward over his face. The wind outside is blowing tumbleweeds around, and the old windsock is flapping; but still no plane comes.

Finally, the American Indian clears his throat and softly he speaks, "At one time here, my people were many, but sadly, now we are few."

The Muslim student raises an eyebrow and leans forward, "Once my people were few," he sneers, "and now we are many. Why do you suppose this is?"

The Montana cowboy shifts his toothpick to one side of his mouth and from the darkness beneath his Stetson says in a drawl,

"That's 'cause we ain't played Cowboys and Muslims yet, but I do believe it's a-comin'."

penny @ 7:15, do you remember the Canadian Red Cross bad blood scare of the '80s? Bill Clinton as guvner was selling tainted prisoner blood to the world, most if not all of it bad. I personally had 2 blood transfusions, 1 in 1984 and 1 in 1986, both after childbirth. While I didn't contract any horrible diseases, that was just pure luck, tens of thousands of Canadians did. I agree with 99% of what you say, the other 1% is the exception.

Apollyon, that was very politically incorrect but damn funny. You should fit in well here even if alby doesn't appreciate it.

I live in toronto and its a very demographicly interesting city. People of many races and nationalities live here and they seem to segregate themselves. You have rich white areas, and poor white areas. You have rich italian areas, and poor italian areas. Rich chinese and poor chinese etc etc, but i was wondering if someone could tell me where the rich black area was? It's probably my fault there isn't one because im white. Why can't we look at patterns of groups without being racist? Our willfull ignorace weakens our culture and we're on a bad path because of it.

Apollyon
"Nearly 3000 Americans murdered in one morning, more than were killed at Pearl Harbor."

Oh get over 9/11 already, it's a fraction of the number of innocent Iraqis that the US has killed in Iraq. So just what again did Iraq and Saddam have to do with the WTC attack?

"Security Council resolution 1441"

When are you going to admit your government outright deceived and manipulated Americans through fear politics to support the war? You were lied to about the WMD, you were lied to about Saddam's connection with 9/11. What makes you think you weren't lied to about Saddam Hussein when you were lied to over everything else? So what exactly did Saddam do that Americans haven’t either done themselves or condoned actions that other nation do on America’s behalf? Murder, torture, kidnapping, abuse of Iraqis, it’s all there? Yep the US has done it all. The only thing is Saddam could never keep up with killing Iraqis as fast as the US can.
Sure he wasn't a nice guy but he kept order and Iraqis were much better off before the occupying force and Blackwater.
Face facts, you can't trust your government to tell you the truth.

So what do you think, was it worth it loosing 3800 troops, almost a 1000 more deaths than 9/11 fighting this so called war on terror? Where is Bin Laden?

alby you're way off topic, we were talking about AIDS in South Africa...Mother Nature, not George Bush, culling the herd.

In the spirit of all this trendy awareness stuff, I have started the Restless Nose Syndrome Awareness Foundation. Feel free to hop over to my blog and hit the tip jar so more can be made aware of this truly horrible malady. I'm seeing infomercials in the future, preferably with some has-been 70s actress.

Alby,

Normally I enjoy your lefty rants, it seems you're a glutton for punishment and you certainly get it here. One thing I don't understand about the idiotic lefty rants about Iraq... HOW THE HELL CAN YOU POSSIBLY BELIEVE THAT THERE WERE NO WMDs? ARE YOU RETARDED?!!

Saddam had the Kurds Gassed. Gas attacks are WMD attacks. Just remember the ABCs of WMDs. Atomic, Biological and Chemical. And please use your brain... if there were al qaida cells in the USA there were certainly al qaida cells in Iraq. Don't be intellectually dishonest, it makes you look like a douche.

PS The white governments of south africa and rhodesia used WMDs. That's how I'm willing to tie this issue in so it's not off topic.

Round our Necks39 writes, "Oh get over 9/11 already, it's a fraction of the number of innocent Iraqis that the US has killed in Iraq."

This person sounds like the poster on another thread to whom I responded, who posits moral equivalency--typical leftist fallacy--where there is none. Equating 9/11 with innocent Iraqi war deaths (many committed by Muslim terrorists) is like equating Hitler's war atrocities to the Allies' response: both violent, but the former the cause of the latter.

Same lesson:

"Do you see a difference here, ['39]?

"In social-emotional growth, young children have no concept of motive: only the outcome matters. E.g., Show a five or six year old a picture of a child standing by 10 broken china plates. Say that the child broke them: one tripped and dropped them. One threw them across the room in anger. Who's going to be more in trouble? Children at this young age will probably say that both children are equally in trouble because 10 PLATES ARE BROKEN. Stuck on literal.

"That's OK for young kids: most grow out of it.

"How about you, '39?"

Its no wonder Alby is silent on AIDS in SA and trying -desperately- to change the subject. Alby's answer to the problem is to STERILIZE sub-Saharan Africa. Too useless many brown people running about eating and burning resources. Gotta protect Gaia, y'know.

Maybe Alby should have a concert!

Jon, when did the SA and Rhodesian government use WMDs? I haven't heard that before.

Its my understanding they would just shoot people.

"Normally I enjoy your lefty rants, it seems you're a glutton for punishment and you certainly get it here. One thing I don't understand about the idiotic lefty rants about Iraq... HOW THE HELL CAN YOU POSSIBLY BELIEVE THAT THERE WERE NO WMDs? ARE YOU RETARDED?!!

Saddam had the Kurds Gassed. Gas attacks are WMD attacks. Just remember the ABCs of WMDs. Atomic, Biological and Chemical. And please use your brain... if there were al qaida cells in the USA there were certainly al qaida cells in Iraq. Don't be intellectually dishonest, it makes you look like a douche."

The question is not whether Saddam ever had or used WMDs, but whether he had them in 2003. He clearly did not. Most intelligent conservatives (of which I wish I could say I was one, and my instincts were in that direction, but I was swayed by Colin Powell's infamous UN speech) recognized that the war would be a disaster. Were they retarded?

The Phantom,

The Rhodesians under Ian Smith used Chemical weapons at the end of the bush war. I believe that they used anthrax, but I'm not entirely sure. I looped SA in with Rhodesia in this case because SA was providing Rhodesia with weapons and economic support.

Albatross, you're gibberish was delicious. I will respond later today as promised.

Correction: you're = your

Test

apollyon @ 10:45:

Albatross, the US Liberal Idiots fawn over communist thugs like Castro and his little wannabe in Venezuela- Hugo Chavez- so I don’t think they’d mind it too much, especially if there’s a Starbucks.

==
LOL - clearly you know nothing about good coffee. the coffee in the caribbean is 100 times better than the crap that starbucks sells. nice one though :)

RB, I actually never go to Starbucks but our liberal idiots [redundancy] love it that’s why I mentioned it. I like to tell me liberal friends that the only thing they’d be willing to fight for is the closest parking spot to Starbucks.

By the way, thank you for the tip on Caribbean coffee.

And a thank you to Texas Canuck.

I’m having a slow workday so I’m typing up a response to Albatross. Let me take the opportunity now to apologize in advance for the length but albatross’s delusions require it.

You go, Apollyon! I'm looking forward to your response to this (lately) no-show adult toddler. (This is the moniker I've made up, from sorry experience, for immature, arrested development, leftie cry babies.) I'm still waiting for a response to my challenge to "Around Our Necks39" (AON39)

Well albatross, lets get started; get your dunce cap, use your bib to wipe the drool from your mouth and pay attention…………..

Oh get over 9/11 already, it's a fraction of the number of innocent Iraqis that the US has killed in Iraq.

You’re a moral retard. In war people die. What happened on 9/11 was an act of terrorism. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis killed have died at the hands of their fellow Muslims. Lookout addressed this tripe well with the WWII analogy but I expect it sailed over your head like a lead balloon.

So just what again did Iraq and Saddam have to do with the WTC attack?

Saddamy violated 17 Security Council resolutions over a 12 year period culminating with the refusal to comply with SC Resolution 1441 which led to his overthrow. It’s obvious you don’t have the slightest clue as to why we into Iraq, needless to say I’m not surprised. As far as Iraq’s complicity in the WTC attack it was the attack in 1993 that had Saddamy’s fingerprints all over it. You can start your research with the name Ramzi Yousef who was using an Iraqi passport.

Once we were in Afghanistan and on Saddamy’s doorstep we had no choice but to collect on the violated resolutions and violation of the 1991 ceasefire agreement. To mobilize the American military fortress is a logistical nightmare and very expensive. Once the infrastructure was in place in the ME we understood that if we left without taking care of Iraq we most certainly would not return anytime soon, so the time to act was now/then.

When are you going to admit your government outright deceived and manipulated Americans through fear politics to support the war?

Do you just make this nonsense up as you go? Probably not, I’d be giving you to much credit. Its rather clear you’ve been spoonfed all your views on the ME. Like I said earlier, you’ve been told what to think. Virtually all the worlds intelligence agencies reached the same conclusions as us, and in some instances we relied on information from other nations.

Later when I get home I’m going to post many quotes by democrat politicians like Hillary, Kerry, Bill Clinton, and others that have said exactly the same things as Bush and in many cases went even further in their claims than Bush did.

Tell me, what were we deceived about? Saddamy never denied having WMDs, he refused to turn them over and wouldn’t account for missing chemical agents. Are you familiar with the recent Israeli raid into Syria where they destroyed nuclear material supplied by N. Korea? The ME despots are desperately trying to get WMDs, as was Saddamy, to gain leverage on the US. Without WMDs they’re just a bunch of sandnits with RPGs taped to their camels, unfortunately still capable of killing many.

You were lied to about the WMD, you were lied to about Saddam's connection with 9/11.

Ignoramus, no one ever claimed Saddamy was involved with 9/11. Again, you can’t think for yourself and just regurgitate leftwing pap like a demented parrot.

What makes you think you weren't lied to about Saddam Hussein when you were lied to over everything else?

His crimes and violation of the 1991 ceasefire, including violating 17 resolutions, is all documented. Repeating the word “lie” doesn’t make it true except in the mind of a fevered liberal eunuch.

Albatross, you must understand, our leftists in America that give you your talking points are not against war per se, they’re against wars led by Republicans. Our liberal idiots [redundancy] didn’t say a word when Clintonista started bombing the Serbs [our WWII allies] in defense of the Albanian Muslims who wore the nazi uniform during WWII. Let me also add that Clintonista didn’t so much as make a courtesy call to the UN before he started bombing the former Yugoslavia. Bush on the other hand jumped through all the UN hoops to appease the leftist bedwetters and to ensure that he had an absolute legal foundation for war. Also note, the UN Security Council voted unanimously to authorize war if Saddamy refused to comply.

The only thing is Saddam could never keep up with killing Iraqis as fast as the US can.

You’re a pitiful fool. Is it Americans blowing up cars packed with bombs in front of mosques and markets? Is it Americans kidnapping teachers and decapitating them? Is it Americans threatening to kill little girls if their parents dare send them to school?

You are a brain-damaged coward to the core; a gutter rat is more respectable.

Where is Bin Laden?

You know ignoramus, we have criminals in our own country that cannot be found by federal, state and local authorities. This is why we have an FBI most wanted list. We can’t find certain people in our own backyard and you expect us to find some Islamic rat hiding in a cave in the middle of nowhere? We were lucky to find Saddamy and that was due to a tip.

Albatross, you’re an intellectual lightweight whose been padded on your head for far to long and told what a smart boy you are when in actuality you’re a drooling baboon incapable of critical thinking and totally void of common sense. Frankly, you’re a stereotypical liberal goose-stepping to the party line.

I should have proof read that first; apologies for grammar errors.

Apollyon,

Now that you've decimated alby on SDA you're part of the club. Welcome.

Thank you Jon. Small Dead Animals has been a great find.

Albatross, I will say this, I would have done things differently. First off I would have never sent troops to Afghanistan. I would have nuked the place while all the Taliban rodents, Osama, Zawahiri and others were there. From there the screws would have been put so tight to Saddamy he’d be on his knees voluntarily offering us to search his rectum in exchange for not vaporizing him and his nation.

penny -

".... not true at all, Joanne, unless you are an infant born to an AIDS mother where choice and behavior aren't at issue. AIDS is a 100% behavioral disease among adults.

So are you telling me that women, children, and even men who are raped and then contract HIV are at fault or are you telling me that rapists are all virgins? People do not consent to rape and it is very unlikely rapists are virgins. I am not saying AIDS is not contracted mostly through sexual relations - that is a given. I'm just saying a whole lot of victims are left in its wake through no fault of their own.
___________

...anyone can fall victim to AIDS....

Yeah, it's like catching a cold or breaking an ankle; can happen to anyone.

Posted by: Apollyon at October 2, 2007 8:17 PM

Apollyon - you must be a man; fortunately, I am a realist and realize sh*t happens.

Ever wondered why medical personnel wear gloves and masks - yah, you got it; in their profession they are at a higher risk of contracting HIV through blood and body fluids, and guess what, they don't even have to have sex.

I know that AIDS could have been nipped in the bud in western civilization if AIDS had been dealt with like any other communicable disease, but it was made into a homophobic issue instead.

With all the crap that goes on in this world, some people here actually still think they have 'It Couldn't Happen To Me' Syndrome. Wake up people!

I'm done trying to explain to people that they shouldn't feel all self-righteous about not having contracted AIDS, 'cause we all know, we don't even have to walk outside our door to have sh*t happen.

Joanne, still not getting it, AIDS isn't in the "shit happens" category of diseases. It won't come your way except for behavior. It's a very rare event even for a dumb ungloved or unlucky needle stick medical personnel. "Anyone" can't fall victim to AIDS subtracting a bad blood transfusion(Africa only at this point) in an emergency or rare needle stick which is a miniscule percentage unless you live in Africa, still not the common route of transmission.

"we don't even have to walk outside our door to have sh*t happen"....no offense, but, you seem like a chaotic individual whose lifestyle and household are a mess. I worry more about termites than AIDS hitting my doorstep.

Apollyon - you must be a man; fortunately, I am a realist and realize sh*t happens.

Yeah, all of us men live in some fantasy world with unicorns and pixie dust. It's amusing how liberals always feel the need to reassure themselves of how intelligent they are- "realists", "progressives", "free thinkers"- when we all clearly see them for what they are: intellectually retarded retrogrades willing to surrender at any cost.

Tell me, were you acting as a "realist" when you leftists pressured nations plagued with malaria to ban DDT? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Tens of millions died worldwide because of the lefts irresponsibility and pressuring for a ban on DDT.

You're a naive girl, if you're young you'll grow out of it. If you're an adult then God help you.

Apollyon, you mental midget I wish I had more time to replying to that load of tripe in which randomly extracted rectally. I'll ask you one question regarding your statement "The overwhelming majority of Iraqis killed have died at the hands of their fellow Muslims." Would those tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis be just as dead today if the US hadn't invaded?

Oh what the hell, one more.

"Is it Americans blowing up cars packed with bombs in front of mosques and markets? Is it Americans kidnapping teachers and decapitating them? Is it Americans threatening to kill little girls if their parents dare send them to school?"

No blowing oneself up in a car bomb takes dedication to the cause when dealing with overwhelming firepower and technology. Americans have a defence budget of almost three quarters of a trillion dollars. This means some joker can sit his shift comfortably thousands of miles away in Florida and pilot some drone with a hellfire missile attached to the wing and kill with the touch of a button. Does it take dedication to a cause to launch that Hellfire missile? Not really, a paycheque and a bit of brainwashing will do.
So would that guy piloting the drone have the same commitment to the cause as the guy blowing himself up in the car if the situation were reversed? Would an American willingly voluntarily to kill himself over this war? Probably not, but the people who commit the terrorist acts believe in their cause enough to kill themselves and terror is the only weapon they have against an overwhelming military force. What you call terror, they call fighting a war with the resources they have.
You have to admit, for a force equipped with nothing more than some AK47s, some explosives, cell phones, some old donkeys and few clapped out Toyota Corollas, they’ve kept the US military pretty busy for three years. If nothing else, you have to admire their tenacity.

But this is about HIV isn’t it? We really should be staying on topic and not talking about the ignorant views and O’Reilly parroting redneck.

Correction
->ignorant views of an O’Reilly parroting redneck.

"Saddam had the Kurds Gassed. Gas attacks are WMD attacks. Just remember the ABCs of WMDs. Atomic, Biological and Chemical. And please use your brain..."
Posted by: Jon at October 3, 2007 9:27 AM

Jon, don't you find it interesting that there was no concern about these Kurds for 15 years after the attack took place? Let's see, how many presidents did it take to suddenly get concerned for those poor poor Kurds. Well Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and George the chimp. Wow they were really concerned, weren't they? Oh how George the chimp was shedding crocodile tears for those Kurds in 2003 when he was planning a war.
Now where did Saddam get the gas for those attacks anyway?

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/2006/05/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg

Apollyon, thanks for the summary of ME information about which certain posters seem ignorant.

Speaking of which . . . moral equivalency and idiotic brain activity--I can hardly call it thinking--again from Round our Necks39 (RON39).

Perhaps this person could attempt to process and respond to my earlier post on this malady.

Magical thinking on my part, I guess.

Albatross, I’m speechless. I’ve underestimated the severity of your derangement, I suspect you have a liquefied cerebrum.
.
Would those tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis be just as dead today if the US hadn't invaded?

Bootlicking cowards blame America. I blame Saddamy and his ganger state for their fate. Saddamy had his opportunity to avoid hostilities, he chose the path of war. We have given the Iraqi’s a chance at entering the civilized world and we [America], along with our allies, have shed blood and spent treasure to give Iraq a chance. The overwhelming majority of Iraqi’s realize it is the islamists that want to keep them in the 7th century and it those very islamists that are murdering their families.

No blowing oneself up in a car bomb takes dedication to the cause when dealing with overwhelming firepower and technology.

I’m glad you admire their tactics; the islamists appreciate your support. You’ll also be happy to know that countless women and children have been killed and maimed by these car bombs.

Americans have a defence budget of almost three quarters of a trillion dollars.

We spend many times more on our welfare state. Our defense budget isn’t even 4% of the GDP.

What you call terror, they call fighting a war with the resources they have.

I know, in the liberal mind one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Tell me stupid, what are they fighting for? The use of their weapons is not what makes them terrorists, it’s who they choose to target that makes them terrorists. Like I said, you’re an intellectual retard.

You have to admit, for a force equipped with nothing more than some AK47s, some explosives, cell phones, some old donkeys and few clapped out Toyota Corollas, they’ve kept the US military pretty busy for three years. If nothing else, you have to admire their tenacity.

My dear bedwetting leftist, this war could have been over years ago. It is not the islamists tenacity that is prolonging the war, it is our political eunuchs apprehension in unleashing the full fury of the American military to crush the islamists. Unfortunately our administration is concerned with world opinion, as if national security is a popularity contest.

By the way, any one who cites leftwing conspiracy kook blogs like Indymedia is hopelessly lost. I wish you luck.

Apollyon at October 3, 2007 8:40 PM
One should never waste time arguing with an idiot, so I’m not going to waste any more time on you. My advice to you is wake up out of that Coors fog in your head and realise you’ve been had by your own government.

It may just be a long shot, but just in case there is a bookstore near where you live that hasn't been put out of business by cable TV, try and get your hands on this Canadian content-
www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/Shock-Doctrine-Rise-Disaster-Capitalism-Naomi-Klein/9780676978001-item.html?ref=Books%3aCT2%3aspot0
It may be a lot of words for you but who knows, you just might learn something.

It's all about moving "product".

More sales......and that's about it.

It may just be a long shot, but just in case there is a bookstore near where you live that hasn't been put out of business by cable TV, try and get your hands on this Canadian content-

Albatross, I wasn't going to respond to your last post because there's nothing left to say on the matter but then I noticed that you didn't even get the reason right as to why smaller bookstores are going out of business. It's not because of cable tv, it's because of companies like Amazon.com. I wouldn't expect a raving Marxist to understand. By the way, where I live there are plenty of bookstores.

It may be a lot of words for you but who knows, you just might learn something...........

...........says the propeller beanie wearing intellectual retard.

Why should I read some anti-American leftwing kooks scribblings? What delusions could they peddle that you haven't already?

Since this thread seems to have been officially hijacked please excuse me while I feed the vulture.........

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002 [I will concede Kennedy may have been drunk at the time but even a broken clock is right twice a day]

"It's not because of cable tv, it's because of companies like Amazon.com"

Ah boy, you walk into a lot of closed doors don't you?

"By the way, where I live there are plenty of bookstores."

Oh really? Is there more than one rack and is the featured publisher Marvel by chance?

Right, must stay on topic. Did I say- "South Africa (or all of Africa for that matter) be a healthier nation without the Catholic Church (or any church for that matter)?"

Apollyon, your posts are a delight to read, and I loved the Texan joke. Note, however, nothing beats coffee you've fresh roasted yourself. Please hang around, you'd be a welcome addition here :) And too right about "well-intentioned" Rachel Carson, the Left & DDT: the US conducted studies where people actually ate the stuff with no ill effects, much less contracted cancer. So many millions of lives wasted as a result...

Alby, come off it: who do you know - honestly! - that actually reads Naomi Klein?

"Too bad we leftists can't ship all the right-wing-nuts to Iraq and Afghaistan [sic], they seem in love with those places"

Actually we "right wing-nuts" only tend to notice places like this when they spawn terrorists who fly planes into our buildings and wantonly kill our citizens, or are otherwise planning on our eventual destruction (et tu, Iran). Regrettably, apart from that, they tend to drop off the radar screen. And if you shrieking schoolgirls on the left would get out of the way, we could finish the job and in time these such spots might become quite habitable.

"Would those tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis be just as dead today if the US hadn't invaded?"

Beats me, Jack. I guess maybe not, unless they were unfortunate enough to find themselves with a one-way ticket to Saddam's rape rooms, industrial human shredding facilities, or simply - like thousands of others - just permanently disappeared during the night. Would any of those scenarios qualify as "just as dead" to you?

Finally, Alby, it's Canada where the liberal-favoured cancon mega-giant Indigo has swallowed up or decimated all the small book independents, chains, and - eventually - Chapters & Coles. Because in Canada, it better suited the (liberal) government to have one huge monopoly (and a liberal-friendly one, hallelujah!) that it could regulate (reward?), than to bear the horrors of free market competition.

Sorry to hijack the thread further off-topic, and now I'm punching out for the night. 'Evening to everyone still hanging in there.

mhb23re
at gmail d0t calm

Posted by: albatros39a at October 3, 2007 11:23 PM:

Good grief.

Alby, I submit this - sincerely - as a kindness, without any sarcasm or rancor towards you:

"When you find yourself in a hole, it's best to quit digging"

All the best,

mhb

"Saddam's rape rooms, industrial human shredding facilities, or simply - like thousands of others -just permanently disappeared during the night."

Ah yes the human shredders and the rape rooms. Come on really, you didn't really fall for that did you? I bet you also fell for that story years ago about the Soviets booby-trapping children’s toys with explosives in Afghanistan. Ah, I bet Uncle Sam is happy to see the disinformation tax dollars wasn’t money wasted.

I think albatross is simply a contrarian. But I must say what’s worse than a coward is a enemy propagandizing coward. Albatross, you are the latter. It’s truly despicable of leftist cowards to excuse the horrors committed by these despots. Most of us have seen the videos of women being executed in soccer stadiums in Afghanistan, the homosexuals being hanged from cranes in Iran, the slaughter of peaceful protesters in Burma, the massacres by machete wielding savages in Rwanda, Uday and Qusay would pick any girl they wanted off the streets of Iraq and rape them. By all accounts from Iraqi’s they were horrified at the prospect of having to live Under Uday and Qusays reign after Saddamy, the two dogs were far more ruthless than their father. And yet cowards like you excuse this behavior and dismiss it as propaganda. The rape rooms were common aw were many other barbaric displays going on in Iraq. As I stated earlier Uday [maybe it was Qusay] had a lions den. While I revile your views I will say you seemed to be just a horribly misguided leftist, but once you started rewriting history to appease your political sensibilities and silence the voices of the murdered you revealed a far more wretched creature. I posted an article about Eisenhower in a concentration camp and he spoke specifically about you. I suggest you read it.

I suggest you look at and digest these images………………

http://www.wroughtironsmith.com/images/torture-chamber.jpg

http://www.greatestjeneration.com/Mandorthestarvingtiger.jpg

http://doggerelpundit.blogspot.com/pixx/shred.jpg

http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1049567724717_2003/04/09/home_cell.jpg

http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/T/torture/images/pic-2010350.jpg

http://right-thoughts.us/images/uploads/Electrocution.jpg

Several years ago Bush invited 5 academics from Iraq to the White House and these Iraqis each had one hand cut off by Saddamy’s henchmen. I bet you would call them liars; such is the mental rot of the left.

mhb, thank you for the welcome. I've never roasted my own coffee but it sounds like a good idea, at least worth trying once. If it doesn't work out well my local market has great coffee, better than the $5 cup of Jaba Waba Triple Latte with a shot of lawn grass juice you get at Starbucks.

Oh look pictures.

Well if nothing else, you are entertaining
Here's a picture of a shredder in Connecticut. This is obvious proof George shreds Guantanamo victims right?
ssiworld.com/products/products3-en.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_Nayirah

Gee, I wonder what Iraqis were doing with a metal shredder in their country? What could any Iraqi possibly do with a “METAL” shredder?

Oh wait! Here’s a another torture chamber. Oh no, not Tony Blair too?

flickr.com/photos/laurenstravels/92640490/

The only way to stop aids in Africa is to get African men to quit having sex with younger women.

…..Oh look picture…..Here's a picture of a shredder in Connecticut

The moral retard speaks. Your argument is because Connecticut has plastic shredders and Saddamy had plastic shredders therefore Saddamy didn’t feed people in feet first? Are you dumb or just stupid? Saddamy was a sick malevolent bastard, what the hell does anyone else having a plastic shredder have to do with him using his to brutally kill people?

Its not lost on anyone here that you refused to comment on the picture of torture devices, the tiger in the cell, and the torture techniques shown. Are you in such denial that you have yourself believing that Iraq was a nation no worse than Canada or the US? Our liberal idiots [redundancy] in America are stark raving mad but almost without exception each one of these eunuchs would tell you that Saddamy was indeed the Butcher of Baghdad. It’s those like you and Michael Moore that paint Iraq as a coffee sipping, kite flying utopian paradise. You’re in good company; I hope he eats you.

Tell me quisling, what do you think about Iran hanging homosexuals from cranes over their highways so that all could see?

"Its not lost on anyone here that you refused to comment on the picture of torture devices, the tiger in the cell, and the torture techniques shown."

You're just to easy, even for an American. I've stopped arguing with you, but I just somehow can't resist poking you with sticks.

"what the hell does anyone else having a plastic shredder have to do with him using his to brutally kill people?"
Does your head hurt after coming up with that little gem?

"Its not lost on anyone here that you refused to comment on the picture of torture devices" I was ignoring your stupidity. Ok I'll comment.

I grew up in Niagara Falls Ontario. We had those things at the Louis Tussaud's Wax Museum.

"the tiger in the cell"
It's a picture of a Tiger, so what?

"and the torture techniques shown"
Techniques? Yea, we had that stuff in the wax museum too.

Here, you seem to believe pictures you find on the internet rather than face reality.
Here's something for you to believe.
www.flickr.com/photos/25895902@N00/499802459/

Wow, you really are gullible aren't you? It's people like you that the Neocons love, you're just so easy to manipulate with their politics of fear.

My dear bedwetting liberal idiot [redundancy], I must admit I almost feel sorry for you. Your level of denial is absolutely breathtaking. Lenin must have been thinking of you when he coined the term Useful Idiot™. Keep telling yourself that saddamy was a benevolent dictator, that Iran doesn’t hang homosexuals from cranes, that Egypt doesn’t kill political dissidents, that the islamists in Indonesia don’t decapitate Catholic girls, that the Muslims in Sudan are not massacring their own, etc. You’re a moral and intellectual coward; I’m done wasting my time on an idiot savant.

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.

Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.

Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.

And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."

Amen, Apollyon. Thanks for kicking this person's sorry butt.

Unfortunately, because he/she's stuck on stupid, no amount of truth or good sense seems to penetrate. Kyrie eleison.

"Keep telling yourself that saddamy was a benevolent dictator, that Iran doesn’t hang homosexuals from cranes, that Egypt doesn’t kill political dissidents, that the islamists in Indonesia don’t decapitate Catholic girls, that the Muslims in Sudan are not massacring their own, etc. You’re a moral and intellectual coward; I’m done wasting my time on an idiot savant."

I sympathise with you not wanting to admit you’ve been a gullible twit. It must be hard for you to confess to yourself that the government you’ve so naively trusted has in reality has completely fooled you.
Who said that Hussein was benevolent? Who said anything about Egypt, Indonesia or Sudan? What I'm telling you is your government lies to you. After the long list of lies that your government handed to you over the years, you still don't question wild allegations they tell you. You were lied to about babies in Kuwaiti incubators, about WMDs and lied to about Al Queda connections. Then as soon as someone shows you a picture of a common shredder found in any city scrap yard telling you it’s a human shredder or a picture of some torture goodies that any European museum may have in their collection and tells you they were used by Saddam, you shallow it whole. Your government has a long track record of lying to it's citizens to manipulate opinion. How many times do you have to be lied to before you have that epiphany? After all this, surely you must a least feel a fraction as stupid as you actually are.

Bottom line, Saddam was not a nice guy, but there are now far, far more people dead now and people suffering because the US invaded than had Bush kept the troops home where they belong.
Whether or not there was torture in Iraq before the war is now irrelevant because there is torture in Iraq now, thanks to the Americans.

BTW, might I add that your ally Egypt was one of the places your government had do the dirty work of torturing victims that the US government kidnapped.
Question, in their “War on Terr” why doesn’t the US do something about the primary source of terrorists, Saudi Arabia?

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —President George W. Bush

www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1155546,00.html

Get African men to use condoms.

ok4ua at October 6, 2007 1:32 PM

Agreed, but first you have to get the Catholic church to stop spreading disinformation about condom use. I.E. Condoms give you AIDs