So if respectful, non-violent protest organized by a church "make a mockery of the real discipline, courage and suffering displayed by 21-year-old grunts in the field," then what does your stay-at-home, refuse-to-enlist, fear-based keyboard commando patriotism do to those same soldiers?

I'd say that such self-aggrandizing, no-risk stunts, mounted by paranoid rightists, make a mockery of the real discipline, courage and suffering displayed by 21-year-old grunts in the field, not to mention their Iraqi compariots.

At any rate, mocking a church for organizing a fast - one day or not - is pretty low, but it looks good on ya.

I've fasted for longer than a day, just to see what the fuss was all about. I find it difficult to imagine someone so spineless, so self centered and self righteous that they would consider a one day fast to be significant.
Oh, wait, i guess i can, and his name is perry.

That's funny Perry, because my many, many .mil readers appreciate the straight talk, support and laughs they find at my blog, so I guess I am doing my own wee part to help them out, when I'm not sending the baby wipes and stuff (which they really need btw folks. The desert is a bitch.)

Which branch are you in again?

ROTFLMAO!!! Precisely!!! Makes them feel good and oh so self-righteous.

"make a mockery of the real discipline, courage and suffering displayed by 21-year-old grunts in the field, not to mention their Iraqi compatriots."

Perhaps it's best if we keep everything in perspective and not invoke the same romanticism the left loves to wallow in.

I'm sure there are many patriotic kids in Iraq that joined to "avenge their nation and spread democracy", youth is brash and has not the wisdom of time.... but there are far more who find themselves in a more pragmatic situation...for many a hitch in the forces beats the dead end of inner city gangs, ghettos and discrimination... or a hitch promised a way to education and a job to escape the depressed rural small town economies...still others join for the "action"....for the Iraqis, joining forces with the Americans is just making the best of a bad situation.

At any rate I can see no lofty ideals driving the conflict...even the so called insurgents idealism has devolved to maniacal self destructive xenophobia.

At any rate, the US cannot recruit fast enough to rotate troops in and out for reasonable lengths of tour of duty. If they intend to have a semi-permanent presence in the ME the draft will have to be reinstated....but that will be Killary's job, which "W" has coached her on handling the extended US military presence in the ME which US policy tanks demand.

Guess the only thing to "pray and fast" over is how to pay for it. Crank out more monopoly money from the fed or float a loan with the Chinese with trade deficit as pay back.

What deserves mocking is the idea that easy, cost-free public gestures like this represent anything but self-dramatising narcissism dressed up as compassion for one's fellow creatures. So they don't eat today and line up at Rotten Ronnie's tomorrow morning for three McBreakfasts each. Yeah, that'll show W. Just like Gelded Bob ended African poverty with rock and roll a few years ago.

"What deserves mocking is the idea that easy, cost-free public gestures like this represent anything but self-dramatising narcissism dressed up as compassion for one's fellow creatures."

We could just as easily apply this statement to Kathy's shipments of "baby wipes and stuff" so lay off the righteous blather. It's a low, nasty thing to attack a church for engaging in the right to protest peacefully. If you can't see that for the partisan blinders in your eye, then that's your problem.

Give the Gelded one a break. If he and those other losers hadn't saved the rainforests,otherwise known as Moe's "I have a lovely patch of land in Costa Rica Crusade", the Greenies wouldn't have anything to cut down to make ethanol.

But back on topic doesn't this meaningless symbolic nonsense just about sum up the left's emptyness. They do symbolic acts the rest of us do the heavy lifting. Instead of leaving plastic flowers at the side of the road how about learning to drive.

At any rate I can see no lofty ideals driving the conflict...

You forgot to add that 9/11 was an inside job. heh

Their prayer:

If we can be in the news for just one day.
We can show the world our moral purity.
It’s not about those that suffer in far distant lands.
It’s all about us.
Amen

"From beginning to end the biblical revelation is a revelation of peace," said the Rev. Stan Hastey from the Alliance of Baptists and an officer of the NCC's Governing Board.

Thats funny in this book called the bible there are the following passages.

Ecclesiastes 3 (New International Version)

3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,

8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

Is it time 4 war?

Dean Spencer-Fox: excellent retort!

"What deserves mocking is the idea that easy, cost-free public gestures like this represent anything but self-dramatising narcissism dressed up as compassion for one's fellow creatures."

Precisely, and well stated. And "self-dramatising narcissism dressed up as compassion for one's fellow creatures" seems to be the stock in trade of the corporate registered churches in question. I suppose their tax free status and corporate holdings being directly tied to the regulatory dispensation of the state has nothing to do with their lame attempts at protesting the status quo or its policies.

The Christian church is supposed to preach a doctrine which is totally pacifist and anti war...yet THIS superficial mewling is all the corporate church can muster as a protest to state sponsored multi-generational war policy?

as you say GDW, there is a lot of fraudulent sanctimony in the modern corporate church...glad I left it to find truth....because it sure isn't sought out in the state-run corporate church franchises.

I don't dispute their right to protest peacefully.
I maintain that it's meaningless and self indulgent to make empty, inconsequential gestures.

In the Christian tradition fasting was a way for the individual to draw nearer to God not as a way to impose one's will on others. Jesus didn't fast for forty days so the money changers would leave the temple and He was quite explicit with his followers not to let others know if you were fasting. Jesus said don't do like the fakes and the phonies making a big production out of your fast. Instead we are to keep a smile on our faces and never tell anyone we are actually fasting.

Perry, it sounds like you don't get the baby wipes thing.

Thanks, WLMR. The other day I heard some nitwit say that spirituality was the same as compassion. Apparently God is really just a Teletubby. But have a look at how John O'Sullivan depicts Pope John Paul II in "The President, the Pope, and the Prime Minister." Some of these guys are well worth hearing out.

If the meek ever happen to actually inherit the earth, I can tell you that they won't hang on to it for long.

I've always preferred the martial approach to peace myself. Any fool can sit on their butt and starve themselves for for peace. It takes a -real- fool to meditate for peace with a sword in their hand. ~:D

With the deep things, the easy way is usually not the right way. If these interfaith clowns want to see somebody meditate non-violently for peace the right way, they should check out all the dead monks in Burma today. All this Gandhi crap sounds real pious and wonderful in the abstract, but when the rubber meets the road these religious politicians don't have the stones for it.

Me neither. If I'm going to get sent to the Pearly Gates I won't be able to sit quietly and wait for it.

Thanks for the vote of support GDW. This is one "spiritual" Christian who believes the corporate church is at odds with its own doctrines and has a toxic conflict of interest.

I believe that the modern corporate church holds placating the state and its tentacles to be of a higher priority than caring for the spirituality of its followers.

As you say, Christian doctrine has been dumbed down and reduced to the type of mass consumptive pablum which holds God to be a fuzzy lil' ol' teletubby...a happy face teletubby who the amoral secular state writes the dialogue....all to keep the institutional religious "flock" from moral and civil outrage at the abominations of big brother.

Historically the non christian state and the Church never had a very friendly relation ( They like to kill Christians for 1000 or so years) until the church became a control mechanism for European so-called Christian Kings...then the Roman church mimicked regal oppulence and authority....Thankfully Martin Luther stopped all that croneyism...now we once again see the church being friendly with big secular authorative government which holds the sword of taxation bankruptcy over their heads....we also see little or no protest from the church when the secular state abominates its doctrines.

Perhaps we need a modern Martin Luther to rescue Christian spirituality and morality from corporate-statist corruption.

Exactly, Joe. Christian fasting is supposed to be private, not a way to attract attention. You certainly don't send out press releases about it.

Perry, still waiting to get your rank and branch... You presume know a lot about what soldiers think of non-soldiers who nevertheless support them on the home front.

With all due respect to Ghandi, he was dealing with the British, probably the most civilized people on Earth at the time. For Ghandi, passive resistance was a viable means of establishing peace but not without much bloodshed.

The taliban, el quada(sic) on the other hand would simply keep lopping off heads until there were no more. There!! Problem solved..

As far as Christian compassion goes, even Jesus knew when it was time to do a little smackdown, i.e. the money traders in the temple.

Correct. Christians are not to make a spectacle of themselves in spiritual matters, "when you fast, do not look sombre as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that is will not be obvious to men that your are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (Matthew 6:16-18; NIV)

I suppose their intentions are to do good, but their theological underpinnings are incorrect. This is fairly common in the so-called New Age Christian churches, also known as Charismatic Christianty. These are loving people, IMO, but they are literally playing with fire.

Here we go again. Unless you have some dirt in the tread of your combat boots, keep your comments about soldiers feelings to yourselves. Left or right, unless you have been in a slit trench with mortar rounds exploding near you, or have had your head split open with a rifle butt during hand to hand, you have no idea what the "troops" are thinking. Geez! GO ARMY!

BTW, I have had all that and more, including over 50 yrs service between my 2 brothers and I. Just in case you were wondering

kingstonlad,

I've never been in the military, never even considered it, so if soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq, or any other place deemed necessary by the people we elect, are supporters of their mission, far be it for me to second guess them.

And even further be it for me to follow the mindless cheap antics of those not merely anti-war but actively rooting for the other side.

As a recovering alcoholic (drugs etc.) with 24 years of sobriety, I can look back on my past and snicker. Beleive me, a 24 hour fast is not a fast!!

As soon as the groups in question start making these political statements their religious affiliation ceases to be of any consequence in my opinion.

In a free society Religion may be your heritage, your calling, your passion or simply your choice.

Confabulating Politics with Religiosity is a whole other matter and IMO invites and deserves skepticism and criticism.

Confabulation = Moonbatery

As Simone Weil observed, there is nothing inherently holy about "waiting and fasting" -- after all, any desperate gambler does as much.

I always perk up when people quote thoughtful people, but the rest of your attack (KShaidle) falls far short of the depth of Weil's thought.

I'm a Christian who in everyday life tries to build a respectful environment where dialogue is possible. This is a far more winning way than the ad hominem scolding we see from both left and right. I also recognize the need for St. Francis type figures to act as correctives to selfish society.

Having noted all that, it is my view that there comes a point where we need to intercede with force to defend the defenseless and stand against the overt evils as seen in the extremist movements in Afghanistan. This has been framed in the media as primarily an attack on terror to protect us (which is somewhat true) but the efforts of Cdn troops have primarily benefited local Afghans and demonstrate to them that we Canadians value human beings, even if they are from a different culture or system of belief.

Your comments on the ecumenical movement don't reflect this principle, unfortunately.

It becomes more difficult to convince others of the worthiness of our cause when we act in an unworthy manner towards them.

Kathy,

I don't presume to be able to speak for any Canadian soldier. I don't serve with the forces...but I also don't serve in the House of Commons, although I do have the right to question what they're up to. Same applies to the forces, although in the case of Afghanistan, my concerns and questions are directed back to those who sent and are keeping them there (the Martin and Harper governments, natch). While I don't presume to speak for the any member of the forces, I do retain the right to speak for myself, and support certain positions, however contrary they may be to current policies.

You also seem to dislike peaceful protest to the war. You also - presumably - dislike violent protest as well. Fair enough. But your active dislike of our democratic right of protest in seems to cut deeply against what you claim our soldiers are fighting for. It's hard to square that particular circle, is I guess the point I'm trying to make. You're a far wittier writer than I, however, so I'm sure there's a throwaway retort on its way.

Kathryn's comment - "I've never been in the military, never even considered it, so if soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq, or any other place deemed necessary by the people we elect, are supporters of their mission, far be it for me to second guess them." - is rather shocking.

You've never been in charge of setting environmental policy, but I'm sure you're rather skeptical of climate change, yes? So, you have every right to second-guess what our politicians are doing. So I'm a little surprised - not a lot, just a little - that you'd through your critical faculties out the window when we send men, women and armour overseas. I'm not assuming critical faculties necessitate active protest against any and all activies and missions engaged by the Canadian Forces, btw. I'm just saying that a statement like yours, which hands over independent thinking and active engagement to the state, is rather bewildering.

Wow, my spelling sucks today...must be that Moonbat juice I'm drinking! (This is what happens when I try to take on Shaidle. I can't stand her politics, but I love her writing. Something inside just discombobulates when I log on!)

Quick Quiz"
The Folks Who Did This!

Are:
a) Missunderstood victims of circumstance who we should feel sorry for and accept as reasonable human beings who just want to get along and will be swayed to peaceful and decent conduct by selfless acts of pacifism?

OR

b) Totalitarian thugs devoted to a theological barbarianism of the 7th century who will stop at nothing to assert their will on the world even if it means destroying all vestiges of civilization?

Perry, you have the right to criticize the mission; soldiers have laid down their lives throughout history to give you that right. It does not follow, however, that criticizers can't be criticized themselves; especially when you use illogical or factually incorrect arguments. When that happens, regardless of ideology, criticism is warranted. In fact, on military matters, free speech can actually be dangerous, so people should be careful how they excercise their rights, which also carry a responsibility.

Feigning meekness never has protected the sheep on the day the wolf arrives.

Political parties who cloak themselves in religious legitimacy disgust me.

Perry said:
"Something inside just discombobulates when I log on!"

Evidence suggest that something in you discombobulated a long time ago. The logging on is just a reflex.

I read it that she is electing to not second guess the soliders who support the mission they have been assigned. Whether she supports the decisions of the government that assigned them to that task was not mentioned in the sentence you reproduced. That moonbat juice is sneaky stuff.

dd

" ... be careful how they exercise their rights, which also carry a responsibility."

A noble thought .... would be nice to see that enshrined in our charter!

Somebody up above noted that Gandhi was going up against the Brits. True. Also true, Gandhi is shall we say not universally admired in India. His results were less than stellar, what with the Partition and all.

Expanding upon my earlier theme, from the Drudge Report today we have an example of what happens when one uses Gandhi's method on someone other than the Brits.

www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=484903

"Thousands of protesters are dead and the bodies of hundreds of executed monks have been dumped in the jungle, a former intelligence officer for Burma's ruling junta has revealed.

The most senior official to defect so far, Hla Win, said: "Many more people have been killed in recent days than you've heard about. The bodies can be counted in several thousand."

This is the second time the Burmese army has done this. Gandhi's peaceful resistance method only works on people who are decent and merciful to start with.

Plan B, anyone? Nice Canadian aircraft carrier off shore of Burma? Oh wait, we don't have that anymore. Ok, battleship then? No?

Canoe full of rabid beavers, could we pull that off?

"That moonbat juice is sneaky stuff."

Has a bitter after taste as well ...... so I'm told .

"With all due respect to Ghandi, he was dealing with the British, probably the most civilized people on Earth at the time. For Ghandi, passive resistance was a viable means of establishing peace but not without much bloodshed."

Exactly. He simply mirrored back in the Brit's faces what the Brits believed about themselves. He called their bluff and it worked. Of course, the fact that the Empire was already straining under the weight of the cost of keeping it together following the wreckage of WWII may also have had a big part to do with it.

I remember reading in some history book somewhere an excellent summation of this point that went something like this: In order to understand why one side advances, you have to understand why the other side retreats. Gandhi was given an English education and he studied English law. Britain had been severely wounded by the pummelling it had received during WWII. It wasn't just Gandhi's brilliance that was responsible, although he certainly knew how to prick the British do-gooder's conscience.

Phantom, good point. It's always wise to remember how the pacifist met his end.

Perry, I just read your comment.

There comes a time when "peaceful protest to war" is stupid, counter productive and possibly dangerous. This is because there are people in the world who absolutely will not behave properly unless you go to where they are and stick a gun in their face.

The Taliban in Afghanistan is one such bunch. Clearly the Burmese Army is another. However until the Burmese Army flies an airplane into the CN Tower we have no need to go fight them. Sucks, but that's the way it is.

You can protest that, but you might just as well protest against gravity for all the good you'll accomplish.

"then what does your stay-at-home, refuse-to-enlist, fear-based keyboard commando patriotism do to those same soldiers?"

Gee, Perry, you obviously do not know the audience here. If you took the time to read some of the commentors here you would find a hell of a lot of military time piled up from us keyboard commandos. Needless to say that all of us with time in volunteered and most would do it again if they needed old farts with bad eyesight and backs, knees and such. ('cause it isn't about the money)

The vast majority of those complaining about our troops and their role have no clue as to what the military is all about other than what they see on TV or the movies. Their "analysis" of the situation makes as much sense as a Michael Moore documentary. Both are based on fantasy not facts.

per ardua ad astra, eh

I thought the Canadian version of pilgrimage and communion, resembling a religious act, was the journey to purchase 'holy' donuts and coffee at Tim Horton's.

Jesus in the public space, got murdered off a long time ago. The simple fact is that if Jesus of Nazareth was here today, in the flesh, we would likely be pounding some nails through his hands and feet!

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/canada/story.html?id=6c7ded9f-e362-455f-b78e-d75e2c810a24

As Richard Neuhaus observes:

"It is true to say that, in most aspects of public life [in Canada], Christianity has been not only disestablished but also banished," he wrote in the "The Public Square," the popular column he pens for the magazine.

JC was a radical and the politcial process hardly lends itself to radicalism. If JC saw all that was done and said, ostensibly in His Name, you can rest assured he would be kicking a lot of keesters.

"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."
Gilbert K. Chesterton

JC was no Casper milquetoast, HE didn't leave you that option.

Sign at St. Peter's Gate:

"Welcome to eternity, will that be smoking or non-smoking?"

As Frank Zappa once said,(bless ya, Frank): "The meek will not inherit the earth- they will inherit what is left of it." Jesus loves you- go to the church of your choice, and wait!

Burma: Thousands dead in massacre of the monks dumped in the jungle

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=484903

Thousands of protesters are dead and the bodies of hundreds of executed monks have been dumped in the jungle, a former intelligence officer for Burma's ruling junta has revealed.

The most senior official to defect so far, Hla Win, said: "Many more people have been killed in recent days than you've heard about. The bodies can be counted in several thousand."

"I'm a Christian who in everyday life tries to build a respectful environment where dialogue is possible. (...) It becomes more difficult to convince others of the worthiness of our cause when we act in an unworthy manner towards them."

So tell us, The Guy: did it hurt when your balls fell off?

Seriously, men who talk like you are the reason we call them The Churches Nobody Goes to Anymore. The feminization of Christianity, reflected in your smug faux-compassionate pretentious cliched "dialogue" talk circa 1987, is what's really counterproductive to the Kingdom.

First of all: as we've established through Scripture, Christian fasting is supposed to be completely private. Will any of these people be smiling on Oct 8, as Jesus ordered? No, having been in the peace movement myself years ago, I can assure you that they will be affecting looks of stern moral seriousness and "holiness."

Secondly: we cannot do penance for the sins of others.

Obviously these leftist dupes don't feel they are personally responsible for the allegedly awful Iraq War. Quite the opposite. So they are twisting the very idea of prayer and fasting to make Pharisiacal spectacles of themselves in the public square ("thank you, God, for not making me like that sinner [soldier/politician] over there", remember?).

And when something seems sorta kinda Christian, has the trappings, but is _the exact opposite_ of the true Christian message, turning it upside down (see the Devil's offers to Jesus in the desert -- they're all for "good" causes, after all), then the word we have for such actions is... Satanic.

Old Screwtape is thrilled by this fast and prayer day, with pompous church leaders fasting in public not private, and doing penance for other people's "sins."

These dupes are giving aid and comfort to the enemy (not to mention The Enemy). Free speech rights, the right of assembly etc do not extend to treason.

The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Thanks Louise. You talk to older Indian guys who were there, they tell a whoooole 'nother story than the Hollywood version.

Hans, you're late to the Burma party today. Now we've got Stalone weighing in on it.

apnews.myway.com/article/20071001/D8S0LED00.html

I really love Drudge!

Anyway, Sly the Italian Stallion just came back from 6 months on the Burma border shooting a Rambo movie. He describes all manner of wonderfulness.

Meanwhile the US Senate Democrat caucus is addressing this dire atrocity by trying to pass a resolution condemning... wait for it!...

...Rush Limbaugh. I couldn't possibly make this up.

Any chance that these misguided ecumenical moonbats will be fasting for the Buddhist monks being slaughtered in Burma soon? I guess they are slow on the uptake of Page One realities, slow in years in their digestion of Iraq realities. The "war" ended years ago. We are now years into the occupation following the resounding support by the Iraqis in an open election of the present government. Perhaps these fasting moonbats have failed to notice that the ongoing "war" is defined as the legitimate government versus a few unrehabilitated Baathists and mostly outside funded/armed thugs trying to undermine the will of the people. The US position has been no more, no less at this point one of protectorate and policeman.

In the infantile navel gazing stupidity of these "virtuous" fasters, do they really think that their hungry little stomach growls, limited to a few hours no less, are anything but a cruel joke to the innocent getting mowed down across the globe by homicidal thugs?

Perhaps the life as a Buddhist monk would give these western narcissistic fools some insights. As I understand it, they eat just enough, that which they collect daily from the community for which they are grateful. Fasting is not a scheduled event for them. The Buddhist monks have the wisdom and moral clarity to put themselves on the front line for the community that they serves. They aren't so stupid that they have averted their eyes from evil. I guess our western fasting fools all think they've taken a page from Buddhism.

Just as so much in our NA culture has become degraded with the nuanced nihilism of liberalism, our churches have lost moral authority. Jesus physically threw the money changers out of the temple. He also invoked a separation of church and state. His model still works for me even though today's clergy are often pathetic moonbat products of lefty divinity schools.

Kathy you meanie, you'll hurt his poor widdle feeeewings. He can't help it that he doesn't know which end of the spear your're supposed to stick Bin Laden's head on.

He's spiritual. ~:D

"These dupes are giving aid and comfort to the enemy (not to mention The Enemy)"

Right, the broad who advocates permanent world war and makes jokes about guys getting tortured is on the side of good, and the guys who aren't eating food for a day in the name of peace are treasonous and give aid and comfort to the enemy.

I totally buy what you are selling. Retail.

You folks can slam Harper(even though mr dithers sent them) and Bush all you want. Slam the UN, slam NATO, slam Layton, slam bombardion, but leave the troops out of it!. Sending baby(ass)wipes to the troops is noble, but is that not the job of those librano promoted armchair generals in Ottawa? Am I not the only one to notice that the troops only get what they need once 5, 10 or 20 die needlessly because of pathetic logistics and support? The real problem for our troops in Afghanistan are the idiots in NDHQ, and their liberal appointed civilian hack equivalents. GO ARMY!

I'm p*ssing in the wind here, but I seem to recall explicit instructions on how to "heap burning coals" on someone's head.

You make a habit of following them, Kathy?

"We are now years into the occupation following the resounding support by the Iraqis in an open election of the present government."

Over 50% of Iraqis think that attacks on American forces are justified. That's the kind of resounding support you can do without.

Perry at October 1, 2007 1:13 PM

I'm sorry you're bewildered. If you would learn to read, you might be a little less bewildered.

I didn't say I'm not second guessing the politicians, I said I won't second guess soldiers who support their own missions. They know far more about what they're doing than I do. Believe it or not, they even know far more about it than you.

Phantom said: "Hans, you're late to the Burma party today."

Given the 'results' of that party, I can't say I'm disappointed in being 'fashionably late'. If this is the new 'Burma shave' I want a new razor!

Having 3 cents of lead in the brain, interferes with one's thinking.

I believe the Teutonic knights understood very well the notion of the castle keep and its purpose; to keep the relentless marauders at bay.

Rape, pillage and plunder appear to be alive and well. However distasteful, there is sometimes a time for war.

The Zen Master warns: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" This admonition points up the fact that no meaning that comes from outside of ourselves is real!

Except when it is lead travelling at high speed!

Evidently the military in Burma have been taking that statement literally.

Cheers

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht BGS, PDP, CFP

Commander in Chief

Frankenstein Battalion

2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von Baden (Rheinisches) Nr.7
(Saarbrucken)

Knecht Rupprecht Division

Hans Corps

1st Saint Nicolaas Army

Army Group “True North”

Over 50% of Iraqis think that attacks on American forces are justified.

Got a link to that, Jose?

It's ignorable as is most of your drivel unless you do.

Something really strange that a call to fast and pray for an end to the Iraqi war should warrant some of these comments. Christians being called to fast and pray is scary, weird, hypocritical, narcissistic, and God knows what else, when what it is is simply an act of faith and of obedience. Someone must have a different Guide Book than the one I use. Do they not have the same freedom of speech and the same freedom to practice their faith as you? Or your freedom to not practice it?
You made the article an issue - not they.

Along my Christian walk I fell in with the Mennonites where I spent some time learning their teachings and history. Through them I came to appreaciate the difficulty of leading a truly pacifist life. I spent a few years trying to follow their lead and I fully accept their position on the sanctity of life. However as I learned their history in Russia and spoke to a few of the more candid I came to discover that when the Mennonites (very few did) took up arms to defend themselves the slaughter stopped. It was through that experience that I came to understand when Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" He wasn't talking about pacifists. I believe in peace too much to be a pacifist.

Amen, Joe.

So tell us, The Guy: did it hurt when your balls fell off?

Wow, you do have the ability to construct a nuanced argument, don't you?

Seriously, men who talk like you are the reason we call them The Churches Nobody Goes to Anymore. The feminization of Christianity, reflected in your smug faux-compassionate pretentious cliched "dialogue" talk circa 1987, is what's really counterproductive to the Kingdom.

I believe the word "dialogue" existed prior to 1987. Your assumption that any compassion I have is fake is pretty bizarre. Personally I have no compassion towards the behaviors of Taliban extremists who blow up both civilians and soldiers, execute people for having US money etc. I don't have compassion for evil and think in fact that Karzai's offer to include the the Taliban in government was unwise. You are making a lot of assumptions about my worldview which are incorrect, based on the fact that I called you on your over-the-top aggressive response to the demo in the UK

Also, when you defend the Kingdom, I'd suggest you do it in a way that fits with its principles...

First of all: as we've established through Scripture, Christian fasting is supposed to be completely private. Will any of these people be smiling on Oct 8, as Jesus ordered? No, having been in the peace movement myself years ago, I can assure you that they will be affecting looks of stern moral seriousness and "holiness."

I agree that fasting should be private and that many abuse all sorts of religious practices, gentle or otherwise, to create an impression for others. So what? When they do that we should lose our own dignity by behaving like morons? I don't think so.

Secondly: we cannot do penance for the sins of others.

No, we cannot. If anything there is a trend towards accusatory diatribes from the religious left, not "penance". Unlike Jesus' "forgive them, Father, they know not what they do" which seeks mercy for people who in the wrong, too much of protest in the name of faith, coming from both the left and right, is driving towards a condemnation and destruction of persons with a different point of view. Which is sort of the attitude the Taliban take.

My suggestion is that you not take this attitude.

Obviously these leftist dupes don't feel they are personally responsible for the allegedly awful Iraq War. Quite the opposite. So they are twisting the very idea of prayer and fasting to make Pharisiacal spectacles of themselves in the public square ("thank you, God, for not making me like that sinner [soldier/politician] over there", remember?).

Yeah, okay, so what? Each of us is responsible for our own behavior.

And by the way, no matter who you are, if you are sane you know that every war is "awful". What on earth is an "allegedly awful" war? A happy one? Even if a war "goes well" it involves the kind of destruction that no sane person looks forward to. The Christian dilemma is whether there is moral justification to take that action.

And when something seems sorta kinda Christian, has the trappings, but is _the exact opposite_ of the true Christian message, turning it upside down (see the Devil's offers to Jesus in the desert -- they're all for "good" causes, after all), then the word we have for such actions is... Satanic.

An interesting development. They are praying for "peace" which is the opposite of the "true Christian message" which is, um... "Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind, and your neighbor as yourself."

And who is your neighbour, Kathy?

Maybe a better point of inflection into the dialogue is to say to the people on the left "Yes, of course, peace is the goal. And what does that look like? When comparing western democratic values and fanatic Islamofascism, which point of view leaves room for peace?"

The goal of peace is a worthy one - mocking that shows that the heat of the argument has more appeal to you than getting past it.

Old Screwtape is thrilled by this fast and prayer day, with pompous church leaders fasting in public not private, and doing penance for other people's "sins."

I'm sure Screwtape is thrilled with a lot of things... And I can hardly imagine CS Lewis writing with the kind of ad hominem venom you are slipping into....

And since we're dropping literary names, let's remember what an old combatant of Christianity, JP Sartre, once wisely noted: "Every man justifies himself by the sins of the other." That's what those lefties are doing!!! Wow, good thing we don't do that!

These dupes are giving aid and comfort to the enemy (not to mention The Enemy). Free speech rights, the right of assembly etc do not extend to treason.

The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Nor is the Canadian Constitution particularly Christian, but I guess appeals to authority can wander here and there when the main thing is to fling poo...

As I clearly said above, I believe that the Canadian troops are doing a worthy thing in providing security and stability for people who are being attacked by fanatics.

Your hyper-aggressive so-called "masculine" Christianity definitely has appeal to some people.

I'm not sure that Jesus is one of them.

I'd just like to concur that fasting as a public spectacle is definitely not a Christian understanding.

But then, what can you expect from a group which supposedly calls itself Bible-believing yet rejects the early Church councils which authorized the contents of the Bible?

To me, the entire ecumenical movement is inventing a Religion of the Future while rejecting, or at best misunderstanding, the true thrust of the Christian message.

Jose may be accurate with the 50% figure (or not) but it sounds possible. One thing I have learned about Muslim Arabs is that they are very good at holding contradictory opinions. Many of those 50% would probably also say that they want the Americans OUT, but not yet. Michael Totten has written about this many times.

An interesting development. They are praying for "peace" which is the opposite of the "true Christian message" which is, um... "Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind, and your neighbor as yourself."

Well no, they're praying for peace at any price. Read the article.

As an aside, love includes correction. Do you love your children? Do you correct them when they do wrong?

An interesting development. They are praying for "peace" which is the opposite of the "true Christian message" which is, um... "Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind, and your neighbor as yourself."

Well no, they're praying for peace at any price. Read the article.

As an aside, love includes correction. Do you love your children? Do you correct them when they do wrong?

Jose is quoting a very old survey as if it was conducted yesterday. In fact, the survey was done over a year ago at a time when expressing opinions contrary to that would have been very risky for the average Iraqi.

The efforts of the religious leaders to promote a day of "fasting and prayer" to end the War in Iraq may not do much good, but to criticize this type of well-intentioned effort to promote peace is petty and arrogant. Anyone NOT want to see an end to the violence and strife in Iraq? Anyone have any better ideas? Kathy Shaidle who are you to make pronouncements about how and when and for what purpose other people should choose to fast?

If they are chowing down with their muslim brothers to end ramadan then they will only fast for a portion of a day and then relish the exotic musk of throat slit goat delicasies until allah permits the sun to rise next day.

Ouuuuuuuuuu!...how inclusive will that be? What a lesson for the world.I wonder how muslims say "kumbaya" in wahhabi?

Jose, we are not occupying Afghanistan, we were invited and the invite is still open. An occupation is what the Iragis did to Quwait, Crashing the party so to speak. Learn the subtle difference. Oh yeah, it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt

Well no, they're praying for peace at any price. Read the article.

As an aside, love includes correction. Do you love your children? Do you correct them when they do wrong?

Your points are valid. I don't think peace at "any price" is peace at all. That said, when we see people invoking their faith in God as an aspect of seeking a peaceful world, to me that is at least a starting point for conversation.

You also make a good point that part of love is "correcting" one another. However this is not a simple task - even with children (maybe especially with children!)

The essence of my points above is that convincing others of the "correct" way of thinking must include behaving "correctly" ourselves. Showing contempt for anyone who comes at things at a different angle is not helpful at all.

"That said, when we see people invoking their faith in God as an aspect of seeking a peaceful world, to me that is at least a starting point for conversation."

Well said. The problem I have is I didn't hear any expression of faith in God to bring about this peace. What I heard was an experiment in "the old ways" to bring about a political objective that being the withdrawl of American troops from Iraq using religious affectation that the followers don't seem to understand.

There are people who have been fasting and praying since the beginning of this conflict that are seeking Divine intervention in the conflict. They are seeking to bring peace on both sides and not unilateral withdrawl. To those prayers I add my Amen.

However when the withdrawl of troops is likely to set off an even bigger bloodbath with an escalation of sectarian violence usurped only by racial and ethnic killing, trying to force through religious affectations, unilateral withdrawl doesn't seem all that Christian in the end.

Hi Kathy

What churches do you think that people do go to anymore? How come you don't have comments on your blog?

Regardless of the views of a couple of the people quoted, the day of fasting and prayer for the end of the war in Iraq cannot be a bad thing. An end of the war does not mean a withdrawal that will result in an even bigger bloodbath with an escalation of sectarian violence. If this war is brought to an end within the will of God, it will result in peace.
Would you deny, with absolutely no evidence, that God has heard the cries of the oppressed people in Iraq and Afghanistan? Then why don't we join in and support them with our prayers also? Only God knows the answer to the problems in those countries since they are mainly tribal, but He works through people. Since you are not in a position of leadership making the decisions, nor on the ground with the troops, how do you know that your contribution is not to be intercessory prayer? You don't, nor do you know that the group calling the day of fasting and prayer is insincere.
Your arguments are completely empty, but it certainly hasn't stopped any of you.

penny "Got a link to that, Jose?"

You don't need to take my word for it. Google "iraqis support attacks US troops" and take your pick. There's plenty of polling data on what the Iraqis think of the occupation, not that anyone cares what they or their government thinks.

Given the choice between using sucky, liberal "ecumenical dialogue" talk that's a flaccid, useless turnoff, and so-called "ad hominem" attacks ("ad hominem" being Latin for "funny insults aimed at people who richly deserve 'em"), I'll take the ad hom any day.

Now go re-tie your white ribbon or whatever colour it is this week.

Oh and I'm not sure why you're confused (well, I am pretty sure, but...). We're talking about the Iraq War. Which is being fought by the US. And the group in question is American. Hence "the Constitution is not a suicide pact." I'm not just tossing around references for nothing. Please improve your reading comprehension skills.

Showing contempt for anyone who comes at things at a different angle is not helpful at all.

Heh, worked pretty well for Elijah.

1 Kings 18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

1 Kings 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

1 Kings 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

Just wondering if the pacifists that are fasting as 'Christians' in protest of the war in another land,
have been bold enough to speak about the Jesus of the Bible to their Muslim neighbours on their home turf?
Guess that might not be included in an 'all inclusive' church.

Bluetech, y'mean like bringing The Word to the heathens?

I'm pretty sure that's a capital offense in NYC. They hang you from a lamp post. Amazingly un-PC and all, y'know, to assume your Word is better than the other guy's Word.

Christian fasting pacifists. Wow. That's quite a take. But, if you haven't got a real argument, take a giant leap and make it an even more foolish by quoting the OT.
In fact, I'd say there's a bit of fear going on here - like, you really think this fasting and prayer is going to work??? Scares you silly, doesn't it.

Gellen said: "You don't, nor do you know that the group calling the day of fasting and prayer is insincere."

Yeah we do. Its a publicity stunt. Ever see a sincere publicity stunt? Or a sincere socialist politician where religion is involved?

God is not a handyman. Nor a janitor. Calling on God publicly to fix stuff we (as in Humans generally, not us personally) broke is unseemly. Not to mention utterly futile. We fix it ourselves, or live with the consequences of leaving it broken.

The people of Iraq are presently living with the consequences of not fixing Saddam's wagon for him when he was just a teeny tiny gang leader and wannabe dictator. Good men did nothing and Evil flourished.

God did not do that, and God ain't going to fix it no matter how many New Yawk liberal faux Christians parade their piety in front of the TV cameras. In other news, water is wet and only runs down hill.

By the way Kathy, nice use of the word "sucky" in a sentence. You really are from Hamilton! ~:D

KS - You don't engage much with content so there isn't much point in "dialogue" is there... I'm sure it is a point of pride for you, but your language and posturing may be fitting for bar fights and drive-by slapdowns, yet no thinking person would have a higher view of your "Kingdom" if you act as its ambassador with that behavior.

Also I'm not sure where you got your education but your knowledge of Latin definitions is more than a little elastic...

And Hoss your point about Elijah is worthwhile. Looking for a NT parallel, Jesus was just as hostile and mocking to the Pharisees (white-washed tombs), though interestingly enough we don't have a lot of texts of him mocking the Sadduccees, who had an enervated theology that deviated further from his own (they were the liberals of the day who rejected the concept of resurrection). Obviously he doesn't accept their nihilistic view that there is no afterlife (his messages are very clear about this) yet he spends more energy focusing on demythologizing the notion that having an orthodox theology means there ain't no fleas on me...

...if you haven't got a real argument, take a giant leap and make it an even more foolish by quoting the OT.

Jesus quoted from the OT extensively. Did that make Him foolish?

Obviously he doesn't accept their nihilistic view that there is no afterlife (his messages are very clear about this) yet he spends more energy focusing on demythologizing the notion that having an orthodox theology means there ain't no fleas on me...

Actually His main point was in calling the Pharisees "hypocrites". The definition of the Greek word is "play actor". They played the part knowing they were playing a part.

Gellen said: "You don't, nor do you know that the group calling the day of fasting and prayer is insincere."

Uh I thought we had been through this already. Jesus said when you fast let it be done in secret and not make a public display of it like the Pharasees. These people are making their 'fast' a public display therefore they are being "insincere".

As I said before there are thousands if not millions sincere Christians who in secret are fasting and praying for an end to hostilities and to their prayers I add my own Amen.

Actually His main point was in calling the Pharisees "hypocrites". The definition of the Greek word is "play actor". They played the part knowing they were playing a part.

Well at least your Greek is better than someone else's latin. :) Yes, "hypocrite" means literally "under the mask" and refers to the Greek theatre tradition. They were "playing a part" all right, and condemning everyone else who didn't have on the same mask.

What I've been emphasizing all along is that our own attitudes and behaviors should have integrity with our high-minded theology.

As our wise friend said, it isn't what goes into a person's mouth that makes them unclean, it is what comes out....

What I've been emphasizing all along is that our own attitudes and behaviors should have integrity with our high-minded theology.

Yes, they should. Not making public displays of ourselves covered in ashes. That kind of thing...

Besides, burning things to makes ashes contributes to GW. Or so I'm told.

kingstonlad you wrote -

"The real problem for our troops in Afghanistan are the idiots in NDHQ".

Does that include General Hillier?

"These dupes are giving aid and comfort to the enemy (not to mention The Enemy). Free speech rights, the right of assembly etc do not extend to treason.

The Constitution is not a suicide pact."

Wait a minute; was this hyperbole or an actual suggestion that these people should be put in prison? The U.S. Constitution defines treason very narrowly for a reason, to prevent political prosecutions such as you appear to be suggesting. The full clause, by the way, is "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court." - language clearly designed to minimize, not maximize, the frequency of treason prosecutions. In fact, this is the only time the word "only" appears in the Constitution. During the War of 1812, when many of the Founders were still alive, opponents of the war (often including clergymen) said things against the war at least as strongly worded as any of these people have said, and there were no treason prosecutions. Nor were there any during the Mexican War (1846-1848), when an anti-war movement was also very strong. Lincoln did restrict civil liberties during the Civil War, and while I myself am not an anti-Lincoln man by any means, I will note that it used to be on the Right, not the Left, that one was most likely to find criticisms of these actions (and even hyperbole of the "Lincoln was a tyrant" variety, still popular at Chronicles Magazine and Lew Rockwell).

"It's a low, nasty thing to attack a church for engaging in the right to protest peacefully. If you can't see that for the partisan blinders in your eye, then that's your problem"

Er, no. It's one thing to value and uphold the right to non-violent protest, but another to expect agreement with or acceptance of said protest.

One fellow's "display of selfless solidarity and courage" is another's "self-dramatising narcissism dressed up as compassion for one's fellow creatures" (well said, GDW).

mhb23re
at gmail d0t calm