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September 24, 2007

What's The Opposite Of Diversity?

University. A long-time reader writes;

I'm a 3rd year polisci/history major at the University of Victoria, and since Thursday, this has been the #1 issue here:
"UVic Students’ Society (UVSS) chairperson Tracy Ho broke a 6-6 deadlock at a Sept. 10 UVSS board meeting by voting that the military should be banned from the SUB.

"The motion was passed to clarify a policy amendment passed 10-1 by the last UVSS board of directors in April.That board amended the society’s policy on military issues to include, “The Society is opposed to the militarization of Canadian Society, and is unsupportive of a Canadian military establishment that violates international law and human rights.” [...]

"The ban voted in on Sept. 10 means that the Canadian Armed Forces will be unable to attend the annual recruiting fair put on by UVic’s Career Services in the SUB every January. The Armed Forces attended last year’s recruiting fair."


Basically, a radical leftist anti-war organization with a membership around 20 decided to table a motion at the UVic student society meeting earlier this month to ban recruiters, and the UVSS board passed it, deciding we students are too "uninformed" to make our own decisions. The nearly 20,000 students at UVic have been painted with the same brush as these dozen or so wackos, and we're not going to take it.

There has been massive outcry in response to the student union board's decision. So far, it has resulted in the formation of a pro-recruiter facebook group numbering 271 in less than 48 hours, reactions from the Army.ca forums, another facebook group at the University of Toronto (if you can believe it) condemning UVic, and a massive stack of letters to the student newspaper. The facebook group founder is going to be speaking to The Zone 91.3fm radio station here in town, several organizers (myself included) will be passing out anti-UVSS flyers on campus, and the local media are being informed. Even students who are against the war have joined up with us because they recognize this for the blatant violation of democracy it is.

I'm just sending this to you to help dismiss the image of UVic students as a bunch of pinkos and hippies. The majority of students here want recruiters on campus, and we're going to fight for our right to have them here at the upcoming student society meeting on monday. There is going to be massive attendance, as well as a major takedown of the radical lefties who have hijacked our democratic process.

I just submitted my application to the air force last week, so I'm not about to let this down.


The link above has to be read in its entirety to be believed.

(More - "Military ban an affront to free speech".)

Posted by Kate at September 24, 2007 9:34 AM
Comments

Wow!! Great stuff. Power to the democracy loving and defending student body!!!

Posted by: Louise at September 24, 2007 9:52 AM

Employers need to know that if they hire a U of Vic student they are getting a radical left wing freak who is disrespectful of the most basic institutions of society.

Posted by: Andrew at September 24, 2007 9:58 AM

And parents should know that in sending their little tykes to UVIC they are ensuring they will emerge as unemployable welfare sucking, fascist communists.

Posted by: johnboy at September 24, 2007 10:11 AM

What this group of young leftists need is a basic course in critical thinking. Their two axioms are completely illogical - and operate in 'circular thinking'. That means - they are empty of thought.

Axiom One. They are "opposed to the militarization of Canadian society". This is a general axiom and utterly meaningless in the situation. Having a military is not equivalent to the "militarization of Canadian society". To achieve that axiom, ALL citizens would have to be members of various levels of a military order.

A professional military system - which is found within all countries - has nothing to do with any 'militarization' of a society.

Axiom two. "a Canadian military establishment that violates international law and human rights'.
Heck - we can all agree on that. We don't want our military to do either. But, first, you'd have to prove that they are actually doing this.

And even before that, you'd have to prove that there IS such a thing as 'international law' in all issues (there isn't), and you'd have to define 'human rights'.

Some people define 'human rights' in such a broad manner, that if someone doesn't have their own home (provided by the govt) it's a violation of their 'human rights'.

So- what were the students thinking - or rather - not thinking, when they passed these two axioms that are, in themselves, utterly without meaning?

Posted by: ET at September 24, 2007 10:11 AM

Not fair Andrew. The piece makes it clear that the wackos are a small minority. There are the kind of people that get elected to student councils--lefty weenies usually. Normal students have better things to do. It's always been this way...

Posted by: BillBC at September 24, 2007 10:14 AM

Not fair Andrew. The piece makes it clear that the wackos are a small minority. There are the kind of people that get elected to student councils--lefty weenies usually. Normal students have better things to do. It's always been this way...

Posted by: BillBC at September 24, 2007 10:15 AM

"The Society is opposed to the militarization of Canadian Society, and is unsupportive of a Canadian military establishment that violates international law and human rights.”

The banning of recruitment officers (and, presumably, military personnel from invited to speak on the military or Afghanistan?) is just plain stupid.

The accusation that the Canadian military routinely violates international law and human rights is offensive. Did they provide even a single example or evidence?

Posted by: Ted at September 24, 2007 10:17 AM

"Not fair Andrew"

Neither is life. It took years of ridicule for my alma mater to pull up its socks and if that's what it takes for U Vic students to see the errors of their ways then so be it.

Posted by: Andrew at September 24, 2007 10:19 AM

Employers need to know that if they hire a U of Vic student they are getting a radical left wing freak who is disrespectful of the most basic institutions of society.

Posted by: Andrew at September 24, 2007 9:58 AM
And parents should know that in sending their little tykes to UVIC they are ensuring they will emerge as unemployable welfare sucking, fascist communists.

Posted by: johnboy at September 24, 2007 10:11 AM
__________________________

That's actually the point of the letter, folks; i.e., that the student government is acting against the wishes of the student majority.

Posted by: Ted at September 24, 2007 10:19 AM

I find it interesting that a Chinese ho voted against Canadian military...

Posted by: Aaron at September 24, 2007 10:23 AM

I see the leftoids in charge of the Student Union at UVic subscribe to Cretien's "da proof is da proofs" theory when accusing, trying and convicting the Canadian military of violating international law and human rights.

Clearly they do not have a full course load as they seem to have too much time on their hands to think about conspiracies.
Caitlin Meggs : "...the Canadian military misrepresents what is happening.”
Tim Founrier: “They are liars... They do not tell the truth, and they manipulate us.”
A. E. Neuman : "What, Me worry?"

Posted by: Texas Canuck at September 24, 2007 10:33 AM

Growing in socialism under communists, it is easy to view the comment by the chairman/woman. It is all exhaling hot air and not knowing what sound comes out of his/hers mouth. Talking alot without actually saying something, talking in key words without context.

Posted by: Bolshevik at September 24, 2007 10:33 AM


So the very council that bans Canadian Military Recruiters is the same one who would invite Iranian President Imanutjob to speak ?
,

Posted by: Ratt at September 24, 2007 10:34 AM

*

These empty headed students have yet to learn that

EVERY COUNTRY HAS A MILITARY ... THEIR OWN OR SOMEONE ELSE'S

*

Posted by: John West at September 24, 2007 10:34 AM

Victoria is a military town, so nonsense like this won't be accepted.

Posted by: lberia at September 24, 2007 10:35 AM

Remember that quite a few of the CF personnel posted to Esquimalt and Pat Bay take courses at UVic, not to mention all the reservists. Just because you see UVic on the diploma doesn't make the holder a complete numpty. Avoid the broad brush, folks.

Posted by: Damian at September 24, 2007 10:41 AM

Banning the military from campus is ok. I went to Queen's and we did something similar: We banned UVic students from coming. Although we did use different methods... we just raised the academic requirements.

Posted by: Jon at September 24, 2007 10:49 AM

Taliban means student. Enough said.

Posted by: truthsayer at September 24, 2007 10:52 AM

If the students of UVic do not want to be represented by left wing fascists then they should not have elected them. That was my point. A democratically elected body supposedly represents the majority of its consituents. If only 7% of the student pop chooses to vote then they are foregoing their right to have a say in how that body operates.

If they didn't want to be branded as left wing fascists maybe they should have taken a few minutes away from a bar stool and voted. I hope this a lesson they take with them when the next election rolls around, but I wouldn't hold my breath. So...until UVic elects a different student council they are a bunch of left wing commies. And frankly, if I were an employer (and I am) I'm not sure which is worse, someone who votes for a leftwing fascist council or someone who could care less who they are goverened by.

Having 5% of the population vote for a fringe element is not very dangerous as long as everyone upholds their DUTY to vote for the government of the country/province/municipality/university. But when 95% of the population is too apathetic to even vote...tough luck.

"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato

Just my 2 cents.

Posted by: johnboy at September 24, 2007 10:52 AM

If UVic required students to take a course in military history this sort of stupidity wouldn't happen.

Posted by: Hans Rupprecht at September 24, 2007 10:53 AM

Itiot lefties. Free speech for those who agree. Censorship for those who don't.

Wouldn't the "democratic" thing be to let the military have their presence on campus and then follow them around protesting and disproving what's being said? But that's too much effort. It's just easier to ban them.

This quote really got me going:

Director-at-large Christine Comrie said it was important to ban the military from recruiting because some students are ignorant about the issues.

“A lot of students don’t know about the issues and don’t know about the facts,” she said. “We have to make this decision for students.”

Isn't it the lefties that want to lower the voting age to 16? Of course they do. Because they know that kids aren't aware of the issues and they can make the descisions for them. The left knows they benefit from the "uninformed" portion of the voting public so naturally they want to make this voting block larger.

Posted by: Reid at September 24, 2007 10:55 AM

Kudos to Jon for quote of the day.

'We banned UVic students from coming. Although we did use different methods... we just raised the academic requirements.'

Posted by: Paul at September 24, 2007 10:56 AM


U Vic has long had a reputation as a left wing institution. The people who chose to attend it voluntarily should assume the risks as well as the benefits associated with attending a left wing institution and suck it up when they are quite fairly portrayed as being graduates of an extremist institution that no reasonable employer wants any part of.

Posted by: Andrew at September 24, 2007 10:59 AM

"And parents should know that in sending their little tykes to UVIC they are ensuring they will emerge as unemployable welfare sucking, fascist communists."

No, they're future NDP politicians. UVIC is well known in B.C. as the starting point for people who later run for office, or work for , the provincial NDP. Several cabinet ministers in former NDP governments were grads of this institution.

A friend of my son has attended there for the last two years, and is currently a student there. The young fellow is what I'd call " sensible" left, and he complains to me that many of the professors at UVIC are so left wing, he finds their rhetoric quite disgusting.

The result is he's starting to see my point about extremism at either end of the political spectrum.
Probably will vote Conservative by the time he's forty. ;-)

Posted by: dmorris at September 24, 2007 10:59 AM

Let me get this straight. The Leader of Iran, who has repeatedly called for the annihilation of the state of Israel and sponsors terrorism against the west and east alike is allowed to speak at a University in the United States....

...and the Canadian Military, which protects our rights, spreads freedom abroad and establishes peace in wartorn nations isn't allowed on campus in Canada.

The argument for allowing Ahmadinejad at Columbia is Free speech: What's the excuse here?

Of Course, Student Unions banning groups they disagree with isn't a new tactic; MUN banned a shelter for pregnant women from appearing on campus because of their pro-life stance. Ironically, this was spearheaded by the Women's resource centre at the university. They all had to back down afterwards after the University Admin laid the smackdown. Glad to know the Adults are still in Charge around here.
Didn't we used to arrest people like those at UVic for treason back in the day?

Posted by: GMarty at September 24, 2007 11:05 AM

If we go back through the mists of time to when these student unions were formed, we discover they are entirely creations of the Left.

I have this idea. We should have a TAX CUT, and the universities can save money by de-funding the student unions right across the country. Let the student Lefties have their powows out on the front lawn, they don't need a multi-million dollar building to do this kind of stupidity in.

They could also save money by cutting off all the dead limbs from the Tree of Knowledge currently hiding all manner of no-talent trough wallowers. Start with Women's Studies and anything that has "queer" in the title, then go after the Liberal Arts and Social Science departments with a chain saw.

We pay these people to do this stuff. We pay them handsomely. We should stop.

Posted by: The Phantom at September 24, 2007 11:17 AM

Here's a thought to smack the silly twits.

How about every member of the CF, regular, reserve, SHR,or CIC,who attends, teaches, or has anything to do with that university, all show up wearing their uniforms tomorrow. They need not say anything...

;)

Posted by: Mad Mike at September 24, 2007 11:21 AM

Kudos to the students who are speaking out against these sanctimonious little twerps.
They should make a habit of it!

Posted by: OMMAG at September 24, 2007 11:22 AM

ISnt this where public funding is supposed to make a difference. If you are a private organzuation that receives no funds or support you can reasonably restrict the use of your facilities.

However, if you reveive 1 iota of public funding you need are required to accept all comers as long as it is not illegal....see the case of the lesbian wedding reception at a Knights of Columbus Hall.

So either accept everything that comes with public funding or refuse to accept the funding

Posted by: Stephen at September 24, 2007 11:26 AM

here's the url of the pro-military facebook group that's organizing against the student union board. 350 members and counting...

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=5990473827&ref=share
(need a facebook account to view this)

Posted by: maharg at September 24, 2007 11:54 AM

Good one, Jon.

Posted by: Texas Canuck at September 24, 2007 12:17 PM

Ok, let's list some war crimes committed by members of the CF.
1. fighting forest fires in Canada
2. fighting floods in Canada
3. conducting search and rescue(normally saving moonbats who should not be sailing) missions in Canada
4. aid to civil power for snow storms, ice storms, etc
5. feeding and providing essentials to victims of disaster around the globe
6. providing security for 5 million innocent Afghani civilians from the terrorist thug taliban

Oh ya, all of those things are war crimes. F&^%ing idiots sound just like their a$$hole parents. Brainwashed commies, every last one of them! GO ARMY - KILL TALIBAN!

Posted by: kingstonlad at September 24, 2007 12:18 PM

Yet another import from the United States.....military = baby killers.

The Canadian left is more like their US cousins than the Canadian right, not that there s anything wrong with it.....just ironic

Posted by: Stephen at September 24, 2007 12:21 PM

I bet several of these wing nuts are known supporters of the NDP. When it comes time for the next election make this an issue. The NDP has run far too well in the island despite its obvious dislike of the Canadian military.

Posted by: Jim O'Brien at September 24, 2007 12:34 PM

I'm with the Phantom - cut off funding to any and all organizations that are trying to subvert our society.

In Australia, participation in student unions was made voluntary 2 years a ago, resulting in a marked drop in militant campus politics

Posted by: jlc at September 24, 2007 12:34 PM

I have said it here before, but it is worth repeating. The loonie left just cannot process how well the Canadian troops are doing in combat. They seem to have no knowledge of the history of the Canadian military, as we have been feared by any enemy who has engaged us in the field. Canadian soldiers are the most efficient killing machines in the world, always have been(since this country was formed)always will be. Ask the taliban, for they know the truth. Canadian soldiers rock! GO ARMY!

Posted by: kingstonlad at September 24, 2007 12:35 PM

jlc.....oohhh I like that one.

Thats the way it should be.

Posted by: Stephen at September 24, 2007 12:35 PM

These empty headed students have yet to learn that EVERY COUNTRY HAS A MILITARY ... THEIR OWN OR SOMEONE ELSE'S

Except for Costa Rica, and a couple of other shoebox states without formal defence arrangements with nearby military powers.

Posted by: Dudley Morris at September 24, 2007 12:35 PM

++Mike

Wearing uniforms is a simple way to make a good point. It may cause a few heads to explode when they realize just how many people are involved with the military in one form or another.

Cheers,
lance

Posted by: Lance at September 24, 2007 12:37 PM

glamorize its brand?? their commercials on TV make them look pretty good? "propaganda" or "truth manipulation"??

What about McDonald's or Starbucks.. or pick any other company? Doesn't their advertising glamorize the brand? When have you ever had a Big Mac that looks like it does on the commercial? Please... all entities glamorize their brand.. and yet us silly consumers still seem to be able to make a choice.

Perhaps the twits running the SUB and UVic (my alma mater - '88) should consider banning all organizations that partake in "propaganda" and "false advertising" (like Starbucks and Labatts) instead of discriminating against just one organization.

Posted by: Tamara at September 24, 2007 12:38 PM

BTW.. I've just called the Development office at UVic and told them that I will not be giving my substantial annual alumi donation.. you know, the one they target me for because I've actually achieved some finanical success being the dirty conservative I am... because of the inflammatory and polictical actions of a University endored organized.

Sometimes putting your voice into $$ can make more impact!

Posted by: Tamara at September 24, 2007 12:43 PM

In Australia, participation in student unions was made voluntary 2 years a ago, resulting in a marked drop in militant campus politics

Excellent idea - since students are always in need of money to buy drugs and clothes and pay cover charges (oops, I mean cover high tuition fees and buy books), I imagine something like this could be quite popular.

Posted by: Dudley Morris at September 24, 2007 12:43 PM

"If only 7% of the student pop chooses to vote then they are foregoing their right to have a say in how that body operates."

Speaking as a former engineering student who never once voted in a student election, I can tell you exactly why that is. Student unions are all about the artsy-fartsy types, the types who'll spend ten years in school gathering up useless degree after useless degree and going on to either work for government or not at all. Those of us who were there to learn something useful can't be bothered with that crap. We engineers mostly stuck to our own turf and let the artsys do their meaningless fluff - we, after all, had work to do. When you're spending 5 hours a day in lectures, 3 hours a day in labs, and hours after that doing assignments, lab reports, and studying for exams, you don't have time for the useless gabbering that passes for politics on campus.

So put me down with Ted: don't condemn the entire student body for the actions of the left-wing nuts. The good students are too busy learning for their future occupations (which sadly will end up supporting these losers who'll be unemployable).

Posted by: Ian in NS at September 24, 2007 12:45 PM

Traveling country wide for a living, I believe out here on the wet coast we have a monopoly when it comes to leftoid views.

Posted by: h.ryan. at September 24, 2007 12:49 PM

"as well as a major takedown of the radical lefties who have hijacked our democratic process."

This is what the radical filth on the left do. They hijack commitees, create special interest groups to acquire taxpayer money, etc. all to foist their undemocratic will on the vast majority.

However, it is the fault of the majority to allow this to happen.

Once again, Australia is ahead of us in solving this problem.

We should all be aware and actively involved in smoking out the leftists and crushing their obscenely ignorant, yet totalitarian tactics.

If we were half as organised as they, this conversation would be moot.

Posted by: irwin daisy at September 24, 2007 1:02 PM

In a similar vein on leftist mentality while delivering pamphlets for John Tory I met a lady doing the same thing for the Liberal candidate. We got talking and I asked her how she felt about McGuinty lying about his huge tax increase when he stated and signed he wouldn't raise taxes if elected. She replied "I'm a retired teacher and I don't know much about that stuff."

With nothing more to say I wandered away.

Posted by: David Hand at September 24, 2007 1:04 PM

On display is unabashed liberal elitism, folks. The message is always that you/we are too dumb, illiterate, hoodwinked, feeble-minded and ignorant to decide how we feel or act in any regard. A government manned by progressive liberals must decide and dictate everything, from whether you may sign up for the military to whether or not you can choose to spend $200 from the government on beer and cigarettes.

THIS, my conservative friends, is what we must fundamentally oppose. It's a question of freedom versus authoritarianism.

GO UVic PROTESTORS!

Posted by: mark peters at September 24, 2007 1:20 PM

I wonder if the CFs are going to come to campus if allowed or invited now? Would the tension be too high? Would they need the police to protect their booth from enraged students? What kind of image would that look like? It's nice that the "principle" is what is being discussed about freedom of speech etc... but from a practical point of view - I'd be surprised if anything comes from this.

Posted by: hems at September 24, 2007 1:21 PM

Re: UVIC. I say nuke em!!

Posted by: Jim at September 24, 2007 1:22 PM

UVic has had a very militant, leftist Student Union for decades. They've stirred up controversy in the past too, most notably when they banned CF (and RCMP) recruiting ads in the Student newspaper and disrupted CF recruiting booths.

Posted by: Belisarius at September 24, 2007 1:26 PM

I'm not sure the student union is within their rights here. As I recall from when I used to go recruiting for accounting students, it is actually the University that sets up these recruitment fairs and invites the companies and organizations to come. The student union only has jurisdiction over the parts of the university that are considered student areas, as opposed to classrooms, lecture halls etc, Of course that was in Alberta, where things work much more sensibly.

Having said that, I now live on beautiful Vancouver Island, and I really hope that our local Victoria Times Colonist picks up the story. There is a big naval base at Esquimault (home of Canada's Pacific fleet)and a smaller facility near Victoria airport. The military is very well respected in this area, as they are a large part of the economy.

Posted by: jad at September 24, 2007 1:38 PM

How shameful was my first thought I read this article.

Post secondary education is such a privilege. Yet in places like Afghanistan many children, especially girls, are denied even basic education. Our soldiers are there (at UN request) to both fight the Taliban and thereby allow social development of the country. This includes building schools and allowing girls to get an education.

By so having a narrow-minded view and focusing solely on the combat role they have missed the other side of the equation. The establishment of social justice, human rights and gender equality.

To me it typifies the progressive stance. They do not care about people's suffering or even their own stated goals of progressiveness. They only have agendas filled with arrogance, paranoia and envy. I think that activist of the past would be ashamed of the actions of their modern equivalent. They are just a generation of spoiled, entitled children like Avi Lewis that "spit on freedom" because they have never been truly oppressed.

Posted by: LynnH at September 24, 2007 1:54 PM

"This is what the radical filth on the left do. They hijack commitees, create special interest groups to acquire taxpayer money, etc. all to foist their undemocratic will on the vast majority."

Right. Because we've never heard of some fundamentalist group organizing a hijacking of some state education board to try to implement creationism, by way of one example.

All political operators operate this way. Rely on the fact that by-and-large most of your average, silent majority, just want to carry on with their day and do their own thing and not be bothered by politics and ideology, especially the politics and ideology of others but even of people who share their belief. Most people are a-political (which is not the same thing as not having a political opinion or belief).

Political activists take advantage of this. These silly kids have just demonstrated a quintessential rule of political activism.

Posted by: Ted at September 24, 2007 1:55 PM

Agreed Ted,

But wasn't Darwinism implemented by political activism as well?

Posted by: irwin daisy at September 24, 2007 2:02 PM

Correct, Ted. Amazing how often we agree these days, eh?

Dippy Lefty skulls full of mush students can't pull their dippy stunts without MY money, nor can dippy creationists. Two sides of the same coin that came out of MY pocket.

Tax cut now please.

Posted by: The Phantom at September 24, 2007 2:03 PM

I read a comment by one of our US ambaasadors. He said when you want people to respect you, you take a man in uniform. It changes the reception to one of respect. Perhaps that is what the left resents.

Posted by: Speedy at September 24, 2007 2:03 PM

Ian in NS, forgive me because it was a long time ago but I seem to recall that engineers were known to have tipped back a few beverages on occasion along with hiring Lady Godiva to ride through the square and other such meaningfull events. G*d, I miss those days... but yeah, I do remember the Albaniaqn Students Club and such putting up information tables, complete with red table cloths. Always manned by art history or basketweaving majors who never seemed to graduate and leave.
The most anoying thing was student union fees were manditory and a waste of good beer money. A group I was with once tried to rent facilities at a student union building. Didn't take long to figure these politician wanna bes didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

Posted by: Texas Canuck at September 24, 2007 2:03 PM

Irwin: "But wasn't Darwinism implemented by political activism as well?

At the risk of pulling this thread off-topic, I don't think so. I think communities were a little outraged when they saw things like teachers being fired, fined or jailed for teaching the current science and decided to elect different boards, plus in the US the Supreme Court opining that teaching creationism was teaching religion and therefore had no place in the classroom. For better or worse, evolution was brought into the classroom by different means.

Posted by: Ted at September 24, 2007 2:11 PM

Ted:

Now that you mentioned it, would you care to explore the topic of the theory of evolution?

We'll keep it strictly on the plane of scientific fact.

Let me start by asking you several questions, which, in the spirit of an intelligent debate, I'm sure you'll be glad to answer.

1) What scientific degree did Charles Darwin earn and from what institution? Whose ideas did Darwin steal and what was the original title of his book?

2) Name me one (1) species which evolved into another species.

3) Given subsequent studies of genetics and DNA mapping, what would happen when DNA is manipulated in a laboratory setting?

4) When Darwin mentions race, would humanity fit that definition? Is there such a thing as a master race?

5) What are your views on eugenics, where the concept of natural selection has been fast-tracked by giving human beings in a position of power over other a license to speed along nature?

6) When Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital, did you know he was so inspired by Darwin's writings that he asked Darwin to write the forewood for his book? Can human beings be ‘evolved' through social engineering? That's the premise.

7) Given that scientists have an ability to measure red-shift of stars, how does that jive with the Big Bang theory?

Posted by: set you free at September 24, 2007 2:16 PM

I think that it is more than just some silly kids. Look at their progressive role models at the federal level. Members of the LPC joining a parade in Montreal in which Hezbollah's flags were proudly waved. NDP's Jack Layton wanting to negotiate with the Taliban after they kidnapped, killed and ransomed the South Korean hostages. Those are but a two examples among many. The problems and unsavory alliances are throughout the progressive movement not a few isolated incidents.

Posted by: LynnH at September 24, 2007 2:30 PM

That would be pulling things too off-topic, SYF, and I've got to head into meetings for a busy afternoon.

As a general comment, I don't feel I need to defend any specific theory of evolution or cosmological origin to say that creationism (i.e. the 6 literal days version, not the "evolution was the tool chosen by god to "create" the universe version) is religion and not science.

And that will always be my objection to creationism being taught as truth or science to my kids or anyone else's.

Posted by: Ted at September 24, 2007 2:32 PM

Ted:

Can't understand the notion that six days of creation are six literal earth days either.

Do you object equally to the teaching of flawed or unproveable science or even the teaching of theories as truth?

Examples: Evolution, Big Bang, Global Warming?

If those science as politics fairy tale concepts are taught in schools, as they are today, would it not be in the interest of of a well-rounded education to teach the beauty of creation?

Posted by: set you free at September 24, 2007 2:43 PM

How many of these stupid students have draft dodgers in their geneology. Cowards.

Posted by: MaryT at September 24, 2007 2:51 PM

they will all die defensless.

Posted by: old white guy at September 24, 2007 2:57 PM

Set you free,

It appears that you have set your brain free. Evolution is taught because it is a hypothesis that has yet to be proven wrong. That's how science works. Like Van Mises said "The fortunate aspect of the truth is that it works, no matter how inconvenient that is for others"

You don't know God created the earth... you believe it. Belief does not equal knowledge. Yikes!

Posted by: Jon at September 24, 2007 3:08 PM

Set you free, with all due respect, there's science and then there's religion. Global warming, socialism and all manner of other pseudo/junk science counts as religion for the purposes of this discussion.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'd prefer you teach your religious beliefs to your kids with -your- money. Not public money, aka MY money.

I'd be ok with school vouchers as a short term replacement for a tax cut, but a major tax cut is the best solution. Private property is supposed to include money, y'know.

Posted by: The Phantom at September 24, 2007 3:14 PM

Tamara; As a former grad from UVic, I, too, am about to cancel my donation to the alumni, for the same reasons as you.

I graduated in 1974 but UVic was already assuming the smug, ultra left,greenie, Godless, elitism that has today finally taken off the veil and revealed itself to the rest of Canada for what it really is; a mean, small, elitist nest of puffins and puffin followers..hiding their offal from view.

"Rule Britania" was a 'lost cause' just loosing the last of it's luster (and respect) when I was at UVic. The anti military mindset of the socialist elitest group was alraedy manifesting itself as an alternative - this lack of respect , by the 'commoners', for soldiers and sailors, is not new in Victoria. The 'old' establishment types said nothing against the AF in public but they told the press what to say! Victoria does not like to be percieved as part of anything that glorifies the individual unless that individual is from their own rank. Many WWII vets had aquired an education and prestige after the war and the big guns in Victoria didn't like that - the 'commoners' acting 'uppity' did not sit well in the craw of these 'entitled' 'old' families.

Victoria is a beautiful city, "more British than Britain"; the people who settled in this lovely city were mostly 'aristocratic wanna be's' in the old British tradition; thus the mindset was to scorn the 'colonials' (which most of them were colonials, themselves - but trying to hide it!) Victoria aquired a thin vinear of 'aristocratic pretensions' by adopting a society of eggagerated old Briish institutions and mannerisms.

The exaggerated attempt of these 'old' families to assume aristocratic pretensions and thus isolate themselves from 'commoners' was beginning to wear pretty thin when I arrived in Victoria (WWII had changed the 'respect' Canadians had had for the British tradition) Things had to change so the 'old guard' armed themselves with the agenda of most leftoids - 'we will run the capitalists doing the nasty work (like working for a living in the oil fields) right off their (undeserved) position on the power ladder by taxing them to poverty'.

This is now the (adopted)the mindset of most of the population in Victoria - these people squawk that they are the 'entitled', they make a pastime out of ridiculing the 'clodhoppers' in the interior as fools to be fleeced. The working people, who move to Victoria, are not ever invited to be a member of the ultra rich inner circle, the group that want to maintain power and control of that city. The inner group are not rag tag Bolshevik types that bludgeon, rape, and rob following a red rag; these are lethal, bland, and very rich and they have no intention of ever joining the 'rabble' - they do, however, support the rabble indirectly, the rabble, like the Student Union reps, are 'useful idiots'. The 'useful idiots' want to be part of that charmed inner circle so they adopt an air of smug self importance and assume that they are a part of the 'elite' of Victoria! Sad and pathetic.

The University is funded by the 'inner circle' so the university spouts the views dictated to them.

I was in the dept of History and Classical Studies and my professors were old at the time. I did not know how the 'elitist totalitarian' lefto mindset had slithered into the university until I took a sociology course for easy credits. I was astonished! I attended that class only four times because it was a squawking, shouting session of left wing dogma (a waste of time) - which I happened to know after taking the History of Russia - I just recycled Lenin and Stalin and got a B+. I did not think it was a serious course, at the time; that is, I did not think that anyone believed anything the prof or the books in that course said ...my History profs certainly did not approve of the Bolsheviks - most of the profs I had were WWI or WWII vets! I think many people were just like me, they thought the rag tag Bolsheviks were a joke. Now, as we see here, we were as blind as the Russians were in 1918 ...let us pray that it is not too late for us!

Posted by: Jema54 at September 24, 2007 3:17 PM

Jon:

I teach my children that the first person who name-calls loses the debate.

I'll give you a free one if you answer me two questions.

1) How has creationism been proven wrong?

2) What scientific evidence has ever been uncovered that one species transform into another species?

Science, before Darwin, had to meet a strict standard to be taught as proveable fact.

The methdology of political control through convincing the populace of junk science is now being propogated in its latest apparition, Global Warming.

Species-to-species evolution is impossible and therefore the underlying premise of the original theory has irrefutably been proven wrong.

Susequent studies of genetics and DNA mapping have shown the impossibility of such a event ever happening.

The question would be, since there's no underlying scientific value to the theory ... who benefits from the confusion it creates?

My answer would be utopian/socialist political philosophers.

Posted by: set you free at September 24, 2007 3:23 PM

How has creationism been proven wrong?

How has the idea that Moses was a robot from the planet Skyron been proven wrong?

Posted by: Dudley Morris at September 24, 2007 3:35 PM

If the students union had to raise their own funds, instead of being funded by compulsory student contributions, it’s not likely that they would be able to get into this type of mischief.
I remember a table that was set up at McEwen Hall (SUB) at U of C many years ago. It was manned with earnest students who demanded that Zimbabwe be freed. It sounded serious so I asked them who the hell Zimbabwe was.
“It is the country currently known as Rhodesia and the black majority is living under the repression of the white minority”

Wish I could ask them how their project turned out.

Posted by: Cal at September 24, 2007 3:37 PM

Phantom:

Would you agree, then, that evolution should not be taught in schools?

Science, I submit, should be about proveable facts.

All other conjectures belong in a philosophy class ... or even better, political science, of which evolution forms a very solid foundation.

Posted by: set you free at September 24, 2007 3:37 PM

When the predicted "Big One" hits the West coast and the Canadian Military comes in with relief aid and emergency water filtration systems, I hope they make a big detour around the University of Victoria. I wouldn't want to see "war criminals" helping out these ungrateful leftards.

Posted by: sooz at September 24, 2007 4:07 PM

Set you free, no. I do not agree.

Evolution, like it or not, is a measurable, verifiable process just like erosion or the germ theory of disease. You can do it in a test tube, you can measure its effects on species over the short term, you can see it work long term in the fossil record. You can see the effects at the macro level in anatomy and the micro level in cellular chemistry. You can even do it with computer programs.

Anybody tells you different is selling you a bill of goods. Creationism is the Global Warming of Christianity. I've got a BA in Anthropology and a MA in PT, I've done my homework on this one.

Any person or group seeking to teach Creationism as fact in a public school, or stop evolution being taught, I view as being no different from the little creep socialists at UVic. Maybe you mean well, but you're trying to push your social agenda with my money. I don't like that.

Social engineering is always wrong in a free country, and only leads to strife. Doesn't matter who's doing the engineering or what their motives are, good, bad or indifferent.

Tax cut. Now please.

Posted by: The Phantom at September 24, 2007 4:17 PM

Phantom:

Changes occur within sub-species, that's a scientific fact.

Human beings are much taller on average than they were even a couple of generations ago.

Yet, the original basic premise that because changes occur in sub-species, then species can transform into other species is a total fraud.

But evolution and creationism are two different things.

Proveable sub-species evolution happened after creation.

There had to be a starting point and even a point beyond a starting point. Go back, back, back through all evolution and ask yourself ... can something be created out of nothing?

If it could, then alchemy would be a legitimate science.

BTW. Did anybody pay for your education? Who was it and what choice did they have?


Posted by: set you free at September 24, 2007 4:29 PM

To be fair to students at UVic, student elections rarely have anything to do national or international politics. When the debate centers around which student clubs get funding or how many parties will be supported by the union, it's a little hard to gauge the candidates' positions on foreign policy issues.

Btw, for the benefit of "set you free", evolution from one species to another happens all the time at the microbial level. Pathogens mutate, develop new vectors of transmission and new immunities, eventually becoming genetically quite distinct from their predecessors. We don't see it at the multicellular level because the time scales are too long. Evolution is fact. The devil is in the details.

Posted by: RM at September 24, 2007 4:32 PM

Pathogens mutate, develop new vectors of transmission and new immunities, eventually becoming genetically quite distinct from their predecessors.

Micro changes through the use of information already contained in the organism is not evolution.

Posted by: ol hoss at September 24, 2007 4:37 PM

SYF - I cannot comprehend how anyone can reject evolutionary theory. Not gonna get into an argument. Suffice it to say that evolution is not in conflict with Christian belief.

Most of us Catholic are quite comfortable with Darwinian theories.

Posted by: jlc at September 24, 2007 4:42 PM

Evolution, like it or not, is a measurable, verifiable process...you can see it work long term in the fossil record.

Only by subjectively interpreting fossils using the theory of evolution as proof. The subjective interpretation of fossils, in turn, is used to "prove" the theory of evilution.

Circular reasoning.

Posted by: ol hoss at September 24, 2007 4:43 PM

Set you free: If its any of your business, I paid for my BA tuition myself, and my Mum popped for my MA. She could have told me to push off, but being a nice mum she went ahead.

First one to call names loses, remember?

The details of your belief system are not really at issue. Its yours, and you are welcome to it. Feel free to do as you will.

Just not with my money, eh?

Posted by: The Phantom at September 24, 2007 4:50 PM

//Jon:
Yes my friend.

//I teach my children that the first person who name-calls loses the debate.
Then you're a bad debate coach.

//I'll give you a free one if you answer me two questions.
Thanks mate.

//1) How has creationism been proven wrong?
It is allegorical, it is not devised from observation but from belief. If I were to say that Jesus was from Mars, what evidence would you have to prove me wrong.

//2) What scientific evidence has ever been uncovered that one species transform into another species?
I'm pretty sure that the Lucy skeleton of the great african rift valley is widely considered by scientist to be a human predecessor. Otherwise, how about bacteria which is now penicillin resistant?

//Science, before Darwin, had to meet a strict standard to be taught as proveable fact.
Aristotle was science before darwin... so was the catholic church... what's your point? Things evolve from the past... pardon the pun.

//The methdology of political control through convincing the populace of junk science is now being propogated in its latest apparition, Global Warming.
Global warming is a religion similar to Christianity. In the beginning... there was a perfect world... then eve ate the apple and adam invented the internal combustion engine. Now we are going to face a horrible hell on earth if we don't repent our evil ways. I think global warming is rediculous (I used to keep a blog at ecocon.blogspot.com arguing against global warming and the kyoto protocol).

//Species-to-species evolution is impossible and therefore the underlying premise of the original theory has irrefutably been proven wrong.
What is impossible? Prove it without using the wold belief and I will concede that maybe Creationism is truth. First theories are almost always wrong. Einstein was wrong, but people had to prove him wrong. Assuming evolution theory would be perfect even 100 years after it was introduced is naive.

//Susequent studies of genetics and DNA mapping have shown the impossibility of such a event ever happening.
Prove it... show me.

//The question would be, since there's no underlying scientific value to the theory ... who benefits from the confusion it creates?
I think this question is null until you can actually show me studies that have disproved that evolution takes place.


Let me just leave you with a quote from Bill Hicks: "Isn't it strange that the people who believe in creationism always look less evolved?"

Posted by: Jon at September 24, 2007 4:56 PM

Ol Hoss, I'm not going to have this argument. You've got to read Darwin's book, then do a bunch of searches on how genetic drift occurs and how its measured, population dynamics and all manner of crap like that. I've got 8 years in on this stuff, I wrote a paper on it when I was a kid that got published even, and it bores me now. Old news. Rather work on my truck, thanks.

Evolution is a theory based on observations. Lots and lots of observations. People see it work every day, just like gravity. That's all.

Einsteinian relativity is a theory too. Christians don't get bent out of shape about E=MC^2 which is a much more radical idea than Darwin's. Real live Creation of Something out of Nothing, and they do it in particle accelerators all the time. Or quantum theory. You go small enough, there's no "there" there, and guys are measuring this fact every day. Your car depends on it if you run a Hall Effect crank sensor! Christians don't see a problem with this spooky stuff.

Mention evolution though, everybody goes bananas. Just makes me tired, you want the truth. Feels like arguing about gun control with a liberal, but without the bad language.

Posted by: The Phantom at September 24, 2007 5:19 PM

ol hoss - Yes, it is. You look at the DNA of two similar species', they are very similar. It takes only small changes at the genetic level to go from chimp to man. There is no other explanation for why there are hundreds of different species' of ants, for example.

Posted by: RM at September 24, 2007 5:26 PM

Ummmmmmm....wonder if these "academic wizards" realize,that under ANY system except democracy,they would be the first executed or sent of to gulags for "re-education"?? I say send them all to Iran,and let them preach freedom for the Jews/gays/adualterss/esses. See how long they last. A country without a military??? Are they completely gonzoo???

Posted by: Justthinkin at September 24, 2007 6:08 PM

83 posts and one person actually did something another one is contemplating to do something, the rest of you are lamenting about the situation or discussing evolution versus creation (not that there is anything wrong with that in general, just not on this thread).
What I am trying to say is this: The current situation with the left dictating their terms in all aspects of our daily life is our own (conservatives) fault. We discuss, we debate, but when it comes down to action we are to busy making a living, raising our kids etc. we don't take action; we don't have time for politics. We talk a lot and do nothing. Have any of you called UVic to protest or ask for their stand on the matter?

Posted by: djinbc at September 24, 2007 6:19 PM

It takes only small changes at the genetic level to go from chimp to man.

Yeah, about 80 million changes, and counting...

Man having 50% similair DNA to bananas doesn't make man part banana. Although evilutionists are mainly comprised of fruits and nuts.

Posted by: ol hoss at September 24, 2007 6:39 PM

May I humbly propose a new law of nature:

The probability of any discussion taking place in the Canadian blogosphere in the year 2007 turning into a slam against Christians approaches one GET SOME NEW MATERIAL YOU DECLINE OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION ENABLING ATHEIST LOSERS!!!!!

Posted by: Andrew at September 24, 2007 6:52 PM

I would honestly think the UViC kids would be best deployed into Iran and the DPRK. They would de-militarize , and the UViC kids can do the world some real darn good!

I'll chip in for the plane tickets...

Posted by: hardboiled at September 24, 2007 6:53 PM

Did I read this right, did a person just accuse the CF and myself indirectly of committing War Crimes.

Posted by: Kingston at September 24, 2007 6:53 PM

Will you people please refer to the post topic before commenting? If you want to debate evolution vs creationism, take it to email

Posted by: Kate at September 24, 2007 6:57 PM

UVic banned an organization, not an individual. It's democracy in action, get over it.

Posted by: albatros39a at September 24, 2007 6:59 PM

For cripse sakes, stop giving these fools credibility. They're children playing childish games. On the day of 9/11/01, they were playing hop-scotch and trading Yugioh cards in the elementary school cafeteria.

It's just too bad that the adults involved allow these unqualified novices to be deluded into thinking that because they read the power points presentation from chapter 1 and part of chapter 2, that they are now ready to perform the heart surgery.

Posted by: Mr. X at September 24, 2007 7:01 PM

Actually Albatros, they accused the CF of committing war crimes, I as a member of the CF who has served in Afghanistan have now indirectly been libeled. If I was to say that all Liberals were thief's and you were a card carrying member of the liberals would you not be just a we bit concerned that I had libeled you.

Posted by: Kingston at September 24, 2007 7:02 PM

Sorry Kate! You turn your back for one minute and there's the kids jumping on the furniture. ~:D

Posted by: The Phantom at September 24, 2007 7:35 PM

Kate,

I'm sorry. I just really like science, although your politics are good too.

Posted by: Jon at September 24, 2007 7:54 PM

"I would honestly think the UViC kids would be best deployed into Iran and the DPRK. They would de-militarize , and the UViC kids can do the world some real darn good!"

I wouldn't do it. In no time they will be sitting in some advisory council, advising how to undermine Canadian infidels from within.

Posted by: comradeBear at September 24, 2007 8:19 PM

Incredible how easily liberals forget that it was indeed the liberals who sent us to Afghanistan. We're not war mongerers; we don't get to choose where or when we go...we just go. It's the politicians who decide. If you qualify banning recruiters from the SUB with alleged offences against the Geneva convention or human rights violations then you clearly must ban ANY politically affiliated organization as they are or have ties to the ones who sent us to do these alleged acts in the first place.

Logical ?...isn't it ??

Posted by: Skua at September 24, 2007 8:19 PM

UVic has more than their fare share of those suffering from Leftist Mental Disorder.
I hope the other students vote these clowns out at the earliest opportunity.
My apologies to real clowns.

Posted by: Bruce Randall at September 24, 2007 8:23 PM

djinbc is right. You folks could actually be part of the solution if you were sending your concerns the the U. of Vic. I sent the following message to:

scarlson@uvic.ca
chanclr@uvic.ca
plaliber@uvic.ca
gmanager@uvss.uvic.ca
martlet@uvic.ca
ombuddy@uvic.ca
academics@uvss.uvic.ca
chair@uvss.uvic.ca
edit@martlet.ca

These e-addresses are all 'movers and shakers' on the U.of Vic campus - including the Chancellor and the Ombudsman. I'd ask others to use these and send your objection as well

Editor, The Martlett

Dear Editor;

What a disappointment in seeing the proud traditions of the University of Victoria subverted and stained by a few radical students with an anti-military agenda. Whatever happened to free and open debate? What has happened to critical thinking skills? Why are these students, but a handful of the student body, allowed to subjugate other students to their own ideology?

Something is very, very wrong at U. of Vic. Canada's military men and women follow a proud tradition of supporting liberty and democracy for others, while callow and naive students work to subvert both liberty and democracy on campus. What is wrong with these people? Why do they insist that their beliefs are paramount and that our military poses such a danger to young Canadians that they must be silenced? Tim Fournier accuses Canadian Forces members of 'war crimes' with no evidence and without trial, something he would not do were it a student accused of theft or plagarism. Director-at-large Christine Comrie said it was important to ban the military from recruiting because some students are ignorant about the issues. This would lead one to believe that Ms. Comrie is herself an expert on international affairs and military issues, while other adults are unable to comprehend the complexities of their world. How condescending is that?

The University of Victoria should overide this decision which as shown by the need for a tie-breaking vote, is clearly contentious. Perhaps some day, with a little seasoning of experience and historical insight, these anti-western, anti-capitalist, anti-American and anti-democratic students will understand why Canada needs a military and why we are in their debt.

*** *****
Nanaimo, B.C.

Posted by: no guff at September 24, 2007 8:23 PM

Perhaps this professor of military history would have something to say:

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=6ab31490-fea2-411f-9e51-d41061179be0&k=49802

Posted by: Michael at September 24, 2007 8:50 PM

John West:

"EVERY COUNTRY HAS A MILITARY ... THEIR OWN OR SOMEONE ELSE'S"

I believe that quote is from Winston Churchill.
But I STILL agree with you... and him.

Carry on .....

Posted by: eastern paul at September 24, 2007 9:07 PM

Re. "Kingston at September 24, 2007 7:02 PM"

Perhaps if the government agreed to a thorough independent investigation the issue could be put to rest. They are not doing this, which keeps the suspicions alive and leaving people to wonder what the military is hiding. Don't misunderstand, it's the organization that has been accused, not the individual member.

Posted by: albatros39a at September 24, 2007 10:18 PM

Pretty wacked to stop the military from recruiting at U of Vic; it is a career.

“The Society is opposed to the militarization of Canadian Society, and is unsupportive of a Canadian military establishment that violates international law and human rights.”

There you go; the Canadian military is guilty of neither violation of international law nor human rights. Now someone should ask those silly fools of that so-called 'Society' who they expect is going to protect their sorry arses in the event of war - it isn't like Canada has never gone to War before.

Posted by: Joanne at September 24, 2007 11:06 PM

Albatross the institution is the individual member and vise versa. You know, the old all for one one for all kind of thing? The CF thinks and acts as one, it has to or only chaos would reign. It's not for me, although my brother did well and I thank God that people like him are out there fighting for people like me...and you.

Posted by: kelly at September 25, 2007 12:52 AM

Kelly, don't be so naive, there's leadership and there's the rest and its the leadership that(leadership includes government) sets the policy. The leadership does not consult the lower ranking members, but it's the lower ranking members that have to do the dirty work.

Posted by: albatros39a at September 25, 2007 1:11 AM

Attaboy, Alby, that's some defense you sure threw up for your former comrades. I'll bet the boys and girls threw a heck of a retirement party for you... but oddly enough, they you weren't invited.

Posted by: Yukon Gold at September 25, 2007 2:10 AM

Exactly! now you're catching on alby, and if you ever enter the real world you'll realize that's how sh$t happens. Leaders lead, the rest fall in.

Posted by: kelly at September 25, 2007 2:16 AM

Yes Kelly- Leaders lead, the rest fall in, AND the rest may end up inadvertently committing war crimes if those leaders fail to do their job properly.
When those leaders fail to do their jobs, who do you think pays the price? It’s not the leaders. Do you really think Hillier would spend a day in prison if it were found war violations against Geneva Convention were committed by handing over prisoners to be abused or murdered? Hillier had a direct hand in setting up the agreement with Afghan government but it would be some poor lower ranking boob that would take the fall for it.

Posted by: albatros39a at September 25, 2007 2:30 AM

Bullsh!t alby, pure unadulterated bullshit. are you suggesting war crimes here? because if you are I would be interested in knowing exactly what those crimes are and who they were committed against. Furthermore there are better places than here to lodge your formal complaints, I personally can see to that if you so choose to do so.

Posted by: kelly at September 25, 2007 2:56 AM

Hello,

I'm the author of the blog Kate links to at the end of this post. This incident has pretty much consumed the life of both myself and many others at UVic this past week.

To the person who said that this speaks to UVic as a whole, it certainly isn't the case. Following the publication of this article in the student paper, a Facebook group was created denouncing the motion. It got 400 members in just 4 days, compared to a paltry 25 members on the group in support of the motion. At tonight's UVSS meeting and public forum, many opponents of the motion showed up, some, like myself, decked out in red, others wearing "Support Our Troops" T-Shirts. I would say the ratio of people against the motion in the audience to those for it was approximately 5:1, and that may be a generous estimate.

Regarding the war crimes issue, in the Western justice system, we follow the ideals of reasonable doubt. That is to say, if you cannot prove BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT that something or someone is guilty of what they are accused of, then they are not guilty. There is nothing even close to anything that can do that vis-a-vis the war crime allegations. Moreover, if a few renegade members do undertake in such acts, and these acts are found to be true in a court of law, the Canadian Forces will discipline the parties involved. It is not a criminal organization, the majority of its members are not criminal, and until anyone can give explicit proof otherwise, I maintain that position.

That aside, this issue is often misconstrued as people tend to turn it into a debate about Afghanistan itself. It's not. No matter how much those in the UVSS that supported the mission would like to believe it is, it's not. This trumps ideology. It is about free speech, about the right to your own opinion, and to not have the opinion of others forced upon you. It also marks the first time I have seen people both for and against the Afghan mission, people of all political stripes- be it Conservative, Liberal, and even NDP- band together under a common cause. And why is that? Because it's not a political matter, and it shouldn't be thought of as one.

It's a matter of basic democratic rights and freedoms, and that's the bottom line.

Posted by: BC Tory at September 25, 2007 2:58 AM

You are right BC Tory and maybe this is a good lesson for the UVIC student body in that if you don't vote you can't bitch.

Posted by: kelly at September 25, 2007 3:20 AM

Basic democratic rights and freedoms is an important lesson for all of us, the most important being if you don't vote you can't bitch. Maybe in future the student body will take a minute to vote.

Posted by: kelly at September 25, 2007 3:24 AM

September 25, 2007 2:56 AM

http://canadaoutofafghanistan.ca/articles/torture.html

Kelly, where have you been? It's time to put emotion aside and ask yourself where is the investigation, and what is being swept under the rug? Failing the come clean Kelly is suggestion of guilt.

Posted by: albatros39a at September 25, 2007 10:03 AM

It's been said of Universities that the politicking is so vicious because the stakes are so small. Leftists seem to have a visceral fear of allowing others to choose freely. Thus their frequent attempts to ban, disrupt, shout down, silence, coerce, threaten, blockade, interfere, harras, vandalize, ridicule, attack ad hominem . . . in short anything but engage in a rational discussion of differeing points of view and accept at the end of the day that others may continue to hold a viewpoint differing from theirs. This incident is a perfect example -- deny others the option to make a choice for themselves.

Posted by: DrD at September 25, 2007 12:53 PM

Hey, look, calling creationism into many arguments is a great way of "discrediting" conservative thinkers. It's a tactic of divide and conquer, isn't it. I'm on the side of evolution and a conservative myself, but I respect others' opinions and beliefs.

Posted by: Paul at September 26, 2007 12:58 AM
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