"replace the present capitalist system"

Done.
Didn't somebody just buy a house in commieatchewan for a paperclip?

Everybody works for the gubmint.
It's been replaced.

http://www.saskndp.com/assets/File/history/manifest.pdf

I can't believe that they store it in a folder called "assets".

Man, this is the best comic relief I've had in a long time. Thanks smalldeadanimals.

So, how is the Regina Manifesto similar to the Ku Klux Klan? How many NDPers have engaged in mass lynchings, or passed laws segregating people based on race? Any old time CCFers/NDPers burning crosses? What about blowing up churches with small children in them? None? Can't find an example? Must be the MSM, and their islamofascistcommiefeminazi allies.

The use of taxpayers' money to buy power is a basic tactic of corrupt politicians.

We saw that with the federal Liberals - and their Adscam - where they used taxpayer money to fund their Liberal campaign in Quebec. And we see that without this Access to the Public Trough, the federal Liberals are bereft of policies, ideology, platform and agenda. They are kicking around randomly - reacting to whatever.

Dion, for example, is now saying that He and the Liberals will be the Saviour of the autoindustry in Ontario and Quebec. Of course, since He and the Liberals are also insisting on full compliance with Kyotoism - and this compliance would destroy that same autoindustry - as well as the industries of the rest of Canada.

In Ontario, McGuinty is flinging enormous sums of money - without due process, without accountability - at various ethnic groups - in return for their electoral loyalty. For example, a Pakistan cricket club asked for 150,000 and received one million; they've invested over half of it. Heh.

So, Calvert is using taxpayer money to fund his election campaign. Blogs and blogs and blogs are the answer to this - expose him each and every step of the way.

Just another example of the Dippers spending our tax $ on worthless crap in order to save their existence. Bush league tactics and i hope that the Saskatchewan public will actually see through this garbage and vote for progress, not the current status quo.

nobody lies and self-deceives like a Socialist.

Well, maybe a Liberal.

How long is the Sask party going to sit there and continue to be punched in the face before they throw a few of their own. Where are their attack adds? Maybe they don't know the election has started?

So. The sheeple of Flatland are going to put up with this? When are you guys/gals going to punt the dippers? On second thought,don't. We can use your young ones over here in Redneck country to help our labour shortage. Saskatchewan...land of the repressed,home of Tommy. You can keep it.

Actually, what is destroying the auto industry (as well as manufacturing in general), is the rising Canadian dollar. You see, have a lower canadian dollar helps manufacturing by keeping operational costs of producing cars, and other parts, lower in Canada than the US. The rising dollar, fuelled by increases in commodities purchases, particularly oil, is actually hurting manufacturing.

"nobody lies and self-deceives like a Socialist."
- see, this is just an example of projection. Conservatives engage in lies and self-deception (Iraq, Afghanistan, Islam, climate change), and so they assume that everyone else thinks, and operates the same way they do.

The Regina Manifesto is an explicit statement endorsing an ideology that has resulted in the mass murder, forced labour and starvation of millions of human beings.

It was an explicit statement by a governing political party - not a drive by smear by political opponents.

But considering the level of reasoning you've exhibited on other threads, it's not surprising that you'd ask such a remedial, uninformed question.

Kate,

Is it better for people to falter and fail because of laisser faire politics of the right, or by the planned economies of the left?

I figure both in history have killed a huge number of people, but I'm just wondering why one is "business" and the other is "heinous"?

"The Regina Manifesto is an explicit statement endorsing an ideology that has resulted in the mass murder, forced labour and starvation of millions of human beings."

Again, I'm not clear. How many killings has the Regina Manifesto resulted in? How many lynchings? Can you please refer to the section of the Regina Manifesto that calls for mass killing? Did Tommy Douglas serve in the Cheka under Lenin? How many gulags were there in Saskatchewan?

Now, I think I see the problem. You see, you're confusing the Regina Manifesto with Bolshevism, which calls for a top-down dictatorship. It calls, explicitly, for a small hierarchy to control all aspects of society, and to repress it by any means necessary.

It is worth noting, that there are some historians, who argue that Stalin, although a Communist, was in fact, acting in a manner consistent with previous Russian despots. Although his tyranny exceeded anything by Ivan the Terrible, he was a product of the Russian political climate, as much as Bolshevik Ideology.

My personal hypothesis is that planning an economy a la socialism prevents those who are exceptional from achieving, which IMHO will make worse the lives of others; whereas laisser faire politics of the right prevent those who are sub-mediocre from gaining equality.

Is it better to hold back geniuses from curing cancer, or saving the idiot brigade from a cold hungry winter?

Self-Loather,

So it was because Stalin was Russian that he was a mass murderer and not because he was Communist? I had no idea that Pol Pot (of Cambodia) and Mao Ze Tung (of China) where both also Russians.

Maybe that explains why they killed so many dissenters, and not because the dissenters were poking holes in their obviously flawed political ideology.

Our glorious history has once again been rewritten by a self loathing socialist.

On another note: Have you ever seen the Che Tshirt that says "Communism has killed 100million people and all I got was this stupid Tshirt"? I love that one.

It's hilarious when people attack the 'right wing' - in Saskatchewan of all places.

Canadians are suckers for socialists, that's why our standard of living is stagnant even when the national economy is humming along nicely. Suckers.

The Self-Loathing Multiculturalist:

Truthfully, you must be dull. Bolshevism, as per your definition, is exactly where the dippers (i.e. NDP mental midgets) are moving towards. Look at the crowns (replacing public sector 'free enterprise' with government controlled collectives), establishing government controlled daycare, multiple social assistance programs, etc. The list simply goes on and on. In your plain old stupidity, you cannot connect the dots - and I'm tired of explaining it to the Leftist tards.

Socialism is about placing absolute power in the hands of a few, which is why it invariably attracts despots such as Stalin. Capitalism represents freedom of the individual to decide his own destiny.

When Socialists talk about "planning" for the benefit of all, what they really mean is a return to feudalism.

This is the reason resource-rich socialist Saskatchewan wallows in "have-not" status while capitalist Alberta prospers.

SLM - "Again, I'm not clear."
That pretty much sums you up pal! If you enjoy being deluded but still wish to be "Clear" ... I hear there's a group called "Scientologists" who can help you with that .... for a small fee.

The Happy Workers Celebrate
The fruits of their labour and expropriated wealth of the bourgeoise'...... After ALL! Isn't life in ALL socialist states just one big happy may picnic??

To allow people to achieve for themselves is what laissez-faire politics ia about. Endless coddling of grown adults ends in taking from others and eventually controlling and preventing people from free enterprise. The CWB is a great example.

Laissex-faire politics has killed a huge number? Quite the opposite, it has save millions. Take a look at the living standards of millions of Chinese. Polution etc may be crappy but there is no famine (unlike under communism)and people actually own belongings.

You can probably cherry pick snapshots in time of the market hurting individuals, but overall it will balance out. Once the leftist ideology is implemented and after the initial burst, it all goes downhill. Canadian medicare, Canadian productivity, indian welfare system etc.
enough

"Socialism is about placing absolute power in the hands of a few, which is why it invariably attracts despots such as Stalin. Capitalism represents freedom of the individual to decide his own destiny."

Are you aware that wealth in the US is consolidated in the hands of fewer and fewer people? Are you aware that the original goal of the federalists in the United States was to protect the "opulent minority" from the tyranny of the majority?

Kudos to the Sask NDP and Regina Manifesto.

In keeping with the principle of 'economic equality', all the staunch NDP CWB supporters in Sask are going to voluntarily give up their excessively large land holdings in order that all farmers have exactly the same amount of land to farm.

From now on, all farms must be exactly 1280 acres, m/l.

I mean, what sense does it make with everybody getting exactly the same price for their grain thru the CWB, if they all have different amounts of land?

Those with more land are not fulfilling the NDP dream objective of 'economic equality' for everyone.

This must be fixed immediately and be part of the Sask NDP platform in the coming election.

Equality for all.
And practise what you preach.

Are we not seeing similar TV ads running in Ontario glorifying the current Governments acheivements & of course courtesy the Taxpayers of Ontario.

"Bolshevism, as per your definition, is exactly where the dippers (i.e. NDP mental midgets) are moving towards."

Obviously, you know little about either the NDP or the Bolsheviks. You see, the NDP is a democratic political party. The Bolsheviks abolished all other political parties, and executed those who disagree. While one may disagree with the policies of the NDP in Sask., calling them Bolsheviks just makes you look silly.

What a silly thing to say - selfloathing multiculturalist - ie, socialist Liberal/NDP.

You are stating that the root cause of lies is Being a Conservative> That is, a lie exists only within perception. No such thing as objective truth. Only perception. And only within the perception of a Conservative. That means that to you, anything a socialist Liberal/NDP says - is the truth. Because They Said It. Heh. I think you need a basic course in logic. And science. And some hard knocks to get off of your Cloud Dwelling unreality.

And there is more causality to the problems of the auto industry than 'the rising dollar' - which you attribute to 'oil' (and of course, to Bush). Ever heard of unions??????

And - have you ever heard of some basic laws of economic structure - that inequality is necessary, or, the economy moves to the LCD - lowest common denominator. The only society with 'all for one and one for all' - are hunters and gatherers - who live in small communal bands without the capacity to control the future. Any other economy can only operate within surpluses - controlled by about 20% of the population (the pareto ratio is 20/80). This is used to fund long term infrastructures. A robust society requires surplus - or it can't build and invest in the long term.

That's why the wealth in any society that has the capacity to progress and change - is controlled by 20%. Not 80%. But that doesn't mean that the 80% are impoverished slaves. They are middle class. So - I suggest some basic readings in economics.

SLM:

Actually, what is destroying the auto industry (as well as manufacturing in general), is the rising Canadian dollar. You see, have a lower canadian dollar helps manufacturing by keeping operational costs of producing cars, and other parts, lower in Canada than the US. The rising dollar, fuelled by increases in commodities purchases, particularly oil, is actually hurting manufacturing.

Actually, this is false reasoning. What is hurting the Canadain manufacturing industry today is actually the years of the massively sub par Canadian dollar. Through the 90's when the Canadian dollar was crawling it's way down to $0.65 US, and the rest of the world was making their manufacturing industries more efficient, Canadian manufacturers relied on the falling dollar to make up for the increasing gap in productivity with the rest of the world. And now that our dollar is valued where it should be, the (primarily Ontario & Quebec) Canadian manufacturers have been caught with their pants down.

Adapt or die.

There must be a small group of leftoid idiots who cruise right wing blogs. I can only surmise that they are hoping to stem the tide that is washing away the socialist bulls#$% in Canada. Must be dis-heartening to have to contemplate the fact that their days of trough wallowing arts grants might be coming to an end. One can only dream!

Actually, what is destroying the auto industry (as well as manufacturing in general), is the rising Canadian dollar. You see, have a lower canadian dollar helps manufacturing by keeping operational costs of producing cars, and other parts, lower in Canada than the US. The rising dollar, fuelled by increases in commodities purchases, particularly oil, is actually hurting manufacturing.

No SLM. What is "killing" your economy is that the car manufactures have not learned how to be mean and lean. Why produce a product at a lower cost,when the gubbermint keeps giving you handouts?You see SLM,for us Canucks who are actually working and bringing home a buck,the higher the dollar,the better my purchasing power.But being a good little survive off the state twit,you can't relate to that..
Question for you...when all the moneymakers are gone,where do you get your benifits from? Or are you just a dictator in waiting?

ET: "And - have you ever heard of some basic laws of economic structure etc etc "

Well, that's one theory. You state yours as if it were beyond question and utterly obvious. Intellectual maturity means, in part, recognizing that there are good arguments for positions you disagree with, that the fact that someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're an idiot.

Get over yourself.

To address your points, I am actually a professional engineer employed in the high-tech sector. I have never been on welfare, and enjoy no benefits from the state. And I can't say that I've actually benefited from any arts grants.

Now, my employer, a large, multinational corporation, enjoys considerable benefits from the government. Tax breaks for R&D for example, as well as other forms of government subsidy. I assume that is what you refer to as capitalism.

Personally, I stand to benefit immensely from tax cuts and right-wing policies, probably more than yourselves.

"Question for you...when all the moneymakers are gone,where do you get your benifits from? Or are you just a dictator in waiting?"

My benefits are provided by my employer's insurance company. And how would i launch my dictatorship? With the help of moonbats and islamofeminazis? Oh wait, I thought they were going to cut off my head?

This MUST be some kind of MSM conspiracy. I don't know how, but those damn socialist-crypto-fascist-communist-nutbar-leftoid-leftard-moonbat-deluded-lunatic-fringe-utopiast-freaks have infiltrated the Saskatchewan government, and must be exposed for the damn socialist-crypto-fascist-communist-nutbar-leftoid-leftard-moonbat-deluded-lunatic-fringe-utopiast-freaks they are.

Small Dead Animals. Shining the light on injustice, 24/7. God bless you all.

So, basically, what you are saying, is that you are a hypocrite and an idiot. If you are truly a leftoid, sell your house, grow your beard, commune with nature, forsake your "bath-house" and live in a cave. If not, go cash your capitalist cheque, and STFU.

A lot of BS over a simple fact an incompetent government is helping to ruin an otherwise promising economic situation because the place a flawed ideology ahead of sound policy....
Enjoy the picnic?

The dippers mantra as well as most socialists is, "you always come first, right after me and the members/comrades". Long and short, no surprises, these guys know how to use their "controlled entities" to get the message out (lots of practice and no scruples).

Be afraid, if we're not here you'll lose, the hordes of capitalists will ruin your lives, we know what's best. Best of all for the dippers, the taxpayer is footing the bill. Probably only fair in their minds, they're looking after you, and truth is, they don't have much money of their own. The public purse on the other hand is thier cookie jar. They are entitled to it.

The mailouts have started, TV ads are running, radio is sure to follow soon, the script is being followed to a T.

Look for the writ in Mid Sept, anfter they've had sufficient time to inundate the populace with taxpayer funded ads and propaganda (best description of it). What a crock.

One of the few places in the free world this type of activity is possible or would even be tolerated by citizens.Only in Saskatchewan eh?? Such promise, such a pity.

Tax breaks for R&D are not benefits. It just means the government is taking less than they generally take.

Grants may be a benefit but turn out to be overcorrection for mishandling the markets. If taxes were not too bloody high, companies would be able to invest (note the word invest) in their business by redirecting money to building up their business. Note the billions of dollars that companies such as Microsoft, IBM and Google put back into R&D.

I am sure that a good socialist such as yourself donates considerable money to charitable causes. Funny that the more socialist a government the less private donations happen.
enough

Jon:

Is it better for people to falter and fail because of laisser faire [sic] politics of the right, or by the planned economies of the left?

I think you mean "laissez faire". "Laisser faire" means neglect, not intentional leave-it-being.

But laissez-faire is not - strictly speaking - right-wing politics. It is in fact a classic liberal idea from the 1700's. Many (but no all) of today's liberals have abandoned classic liberalism in favour of progressive liberalism. Many (but not all) conservatives, perhaps sensing the vacuum, have picked up the banner of classic liberalism.

As a result, our political terminology has been hoplelessly debauched. You might be shocked to learn, for example, that Ronald Reagan was essentially a (classic) liberal.

I'm not a great consumer of local or even Canadian media, but my impression is that the provincial government here spends rather more on advertising than its Ontario and BC counterparts. Granted, anecdotal evidence is worth very little, but I would be very interested to know how the advertising budget of the Saskatchewan government stacks up against those of other jurisdictions, both on a spending per capita basis and as a portion of overall government or department spending. The motive for giving large advertising budgets to government departments is obvious, especially if you're a leftist party committed to the idea that more government is usually better. You can bet that the bureaucrats who run those departments, and get their pay cheques from them, will be happy to spread the Good News about your good works for you. Ditto government unions.

As for the Regina Manifesto, sure, it probably hasn't directly caused any deaths, but it's a prime sample of an antiquated an poisonous ideology that's led to the ruin and death of millions and will probably yet lead to more misery, if Mr. Chavez, for example, has his way. Its foolishness is now three quarters of a century old, and the NDP's reluctance, in the face of all the evidence, to quietly bury this dreadful old relic says a lot about the quantity of dead enders and bitter enders in the party.

"We aim to replace the present capitalist system, with its inherent injustice and inhumanity, by a social order from which the domination and exploitation of one class by another will be eliminated, in which economic planning will supersede unregulated private enterprise and competition, and in which genuine democratic self-government, based upon economic equality will be possible."

JohnnyRingo - Crypto-communist about about does it for me.
Bedmates to McGuinty's Ontario socialists.
Re-electing them is, as they say "putting lipstick on pigs"

The Regina Manifesto is an explicit statement endorsing an ideology that has resulted in the mass murder, forced labour and starvation of millions of human beings.

Even if the manifesto didn't explicitly reject violence--and it does--this would be a logical fallacy.

Try working on your own reasoning skills, Kate.

"Grants may be a benefit but turn out to be overcorrection for mishandling the markets. If taxes were not too bloody high, companies would be able to invest (note the word invest) in their business by redirecting money to building up their business. Note the billions of dollars that companies such as Microsoft, IBM and Google put back into R&D."

I suggest that you familiarize with the history of the electronics and software industry. Early development into software, hardware and electronics was heavily subsidized by the government. It was then handed over to the private sector for free.

Public sector takes the risk, private sector takes the reward. That's capitalism.

The brochures look perfectly fine for me. It details a myriad of government programs for assisting people in need of everything from immunizations to job searching. I think more of them should be distributed to at-risk patients to help them access the assistance they need.

Public sector takes the risk, private sector takes the reward. That's capitalism.

Nope you've got it all wrong SLM. Here is how it really works:

The Evolution of Liberals and Conservatives

Humans originally existed as members of small bands of nomadic
hunters/gatherers. They lived on deer in the mountains during the
summer and would go to the coast and live on fish and lobster in the
winter.

The two most important events in all of history were the invention of
beer and the invention of the wheel. The wheel was invented to get man
to the beer. These were the foundation of modern civilization and
together were the catalyst for the splitting of humanity into two
distinct subgroups:

1. Liberals
2. Conservatives

Once beer was discovered, it required grain and that was the beginning
of agriculture. Neither the glass bottle nor aluminum can were invented
yet, so while our early humans were sitting around waiting for them to
be invented, they just stayed close to the brewery. That's how villages
were formed.

Some men spent their days tracking and killing animals to B-B-Q at night
while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of what is known
as the Conservative movement.

Other men who were weaker and less skilled at hunting learned to live
off the conservatives by showing up for the nightly B-B-Q's and doing
the sewing, fetching, and hair dressing. This was the beginning of the
Liberal movement.

Some of these liberal men eventually evolved into women. The rest became
known as "girlie men".

Some noteworthy liberal achievements include the domestication of cats,
the invention of group therapy, group hugs, and the concept of
Democratic voting to decide how to divide the meat and beer that
conservatives provided.

Over the years conservatives came to be symbolized by the largest, most
powerful land animal on earth, the elephant. Liberals were symbolized by
the jackass.

Modern liberals like light beer (sometimes with lime added), but most
prefer white wine or imported bottled water. They eat raw fish but like
their beef well done. Sushi, tofu, and French food are standard liberal
fare.

Another interesting evolutionary side note: most of their women have
higher testosterone levels than their men. Most social workers, personal
injury attorneys, journalists, dreamers in Hollywood and group
therapists are liberals. Liberals also invented the designated hitter
rule because it was not fair to make the pitcher also bat.

Conservatives tend to drink micro brew beer. They also eat red meat and
still provide
for their women and families.

Conservatives are big-game hunters, rodeo cowboys, lumberjacks,
construction workers, firemen, medical doctors, police officers,
corporate executives, athletes, Marines, and generally anyone who works
productively. Conservatives who own companies hire other conservatives
who want to work for a living.

Liberals produce little or nothing. They like to govern the producers
and decide what to do with the production. Liberals believe Europeans
are more enlightened than Americans. That is why most of the liberals
remained in Europe when conservatives were coming to America. They crept
in after the Wild West was tamed and created a business of trying to get
more for nothing.

STM:

Occassionally (not often, in the grand scheme of things) the government does subsidize research, and then make it available to private industry. But to generalize that into "Public sector takes the risk, private sector takes the reward" is preposterous beyond belief.

A typical corporate enterprize is constantly at risk. Companies big and small fail every single day. Even if a company does use the results of government research, they still have to compete against other companies trying to do exactly the same thing.

I've never worked for a company that has failed outright, but I've worked for a number that have gone through hard times, and it means shareholders and employees alike take it on the chin. How many government employees get told "due to falling revenues, all salaries are immediately reduced by 30%"?

Your perception of free enterprize is pure fantasy - a complete crock.

Kate,
I had no idea you had so many Commie Kool Aid drinkers reading your site.

You must certainly be a threat to their fragile ideology. They sure seem to have no dearth of words to cover up their true intentions: control of humanity.

There are still many liberals that believe in free market. This includes setting up rules to limit monopolies and oligarchies to maintain a free market.
There are also many liberals that support limited government intervention. A

Very few people believe and almost no economists believe in in laissez faire policies anymore. You only need to look at the stock market crash in 1929 to see what this brought.

The 2 debates now are on macro economic policy and market control. The two dominant macro economic theories consists of a push system "supply side" like Reagan or a pull system "demand side" like FDR. The other debate is on trade barriers.

On these issues you will find that many liberals would side with conservatives on trade barriers, but most liberals believe in demand side economics.

Modern socialist however want demand side economics with trade barriers. This doesn't work well at all, A perfect example of this is Saskatchewan at about 1981 or even worse England in the 70's. The only way to pay for this type of economy is with debt, unless you have a commodity like oil that everyone wants and the state can generate enough royalties to pay for their overspending.

Ah, yes. Just think of all those wonderful inventions of the Soviet Union, North Korea, Cuba.
enough

"due to falling revenues, all salaries are immediately reduced by 30%"

How many CEOs receive notices like this. And pity the poor shareholder, who looses dividends, whilst employees loose their job.

Are you familiar with the history of R&D as it applies to software and semiconductor technology? The private sector did nothing without the support of the public sector. And what about the soon-to-be bailouts of the subprime loans that are crushing the US economy? Where do you think the money for that will come from?

Economics doesn't work on some theory that you read in a text book.

No, economics would seem to work on crackpot theories in your own mind.
enough

Interesting post, heric. Though I would add a few corrections. Managed trade is, in fact, how developing countries industrialize, and increase the size of their economies. Note South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, etc. They all had agreements where there were technology exchanges, guarantees of a certain quantity of finished deliverables being manufactured. The countries in Africa and Latin America who followed "free trade" are all wallowing in debt.

The same goes for England. They only promoted free trade once they had crushed the textile industry in India. They then called off free trade once the Japanese started producing things more efficiently.

The main problem with Africa isn't free trade. It is one sided trading. Very few countries will trade with African countries on even level, this is for many reasons including poor government, instability, etc.

Canada has tried to do this with a system based on governance, but with WTO talks stalled and the European Union still trying to screw over their colonies, this will go nowhere fast. Also many European countries want to protect what they have invested in Africa and still view it as a continent that should be exploited. If you get the chance read up on France's role in Rwanda and also in Sierra Leon.

Japan and China are the real beneficiaries of managed economies, but they were allowed to do this because the US saw an opportunity in both to affect change to their countries. America is trying to buy a democracy in China, and in Japan they were trying to protect it from Communism.

So, were does the public sector get it's funds to "support" the private sector?

Here's a hint. The public sector doesn't generate it's own funds. It leaches it off the private sector.

Public sector grants aren't free money given to corporations. The government wants the corporations to succeed so that they can get their money back and more through taxes. It's not an altruistic blessing of captial.

The line in Calvert's letter that caught my eye was this one: "This is why my Government has made improvements such as increased licensed child care spaces ...."

" ... MY government ..." ??

Sorry, Comrade, but it's Her Majesty's Government, and you are merely HER first minister. Such lese-majeste is inappropriate at any time, and certainly from a devout socialist.

However, this little Freudian slip isn't really all Mr Calvert's fault. Our whole political culture seems to be subsumed by the cult of the celebrity, wherein all authority, all wisdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever Amen, is vested in one individual - the PM federally and the Premiers provincially. No-one and nothing else matters.

And in its own way, that pathology is just about as dangerous as any idiotic policy that any party or government could hatch.

TSLM:

"due to falling revenues, all salaries are immediately reduced by 30%"

How many CEOs receive notices like this? In smaller companies, all the time.

Actually it's the CEO's who give such notices, and in smaller companies they are expected to take a much bigger hit, as a percentage of their salaries, than the employees. It's usually a sliding scale - maybe 30% reduction for managers, 20% reduction for most employees, and 10% reduction for the lowest paid employees. If managers do not lead by example, then the employees find work elsewhere when things improve.

I've gone through it three times now, which doesn't leave me particularly tolerant of people who say that it's government which is taking the risk.

And the shareholders do more than lose their dividends - the share price typically tanks as well, sometimes to zero. Most shareholders had to work for that money, and they're not all millionaires.

Economics doesn't work on some theory that you read in a text book.

I'm talking from nearly 30 years experience as an employee, manager, and investor in the private-industry technology sector. My guess is that you are not.

Keep spinning your wheels SLM. Despite it not working, despite all the futile effort to implement a failed dream, keep on keeping on.

Force people to act counter to humane nature, kill them if they resist.
enough

Please don't pick on my useful idiot, er, comrade.

He's innocently doing my work in his absence. Just remember, "I meant well" so what's 150 million dead? Merely a statistic.

Just watch him scramble.

The Self-Loathing Multiculturalist

I know a whole lot of engineers. You ain't one.

My guess is you work for the city. In a union. Doing nothing. .

"The Self-Loathing Multiculturalist

I know a whole lot of engineers. You ain't one.

My guess is you work for the city. In a union. Doing nothing."

Hahaha!!!!

Sadly, No. I have never had the priviledge of joining a Union, nor am I employed in the private sector. I sit in a nice, comfortable, air conditioned office in North Toronto, overlooking the city. Quite nice, actually.

I am a licensed P.Eng in Ontario. I work in the private healthcare sector, working in Software Development and Implementation.

That is the problem with political extremists: you create an image of what your political enemies look like. When some one comes along that doesn't look like what you imagine, your simple little mind can't handle it.

Sanitation engineer?
enough

Ah, techies.

Now they are leftards.

Real engineers are linear, logical thinkers who tend to be libertarians in policy if not in party support.

You'd think a group working in computer programming would be the same but every techie I know resembles the two classes of Pedophiles: Star Trek geeks and Star Wars geeks (not to say techies are pedophiles.) 85% or more are left and irrationally emotional. Must be something to do with having no friends in high school or something.

But the logic in the work doesn't seem to carry over into anything else.

"Ah, techies.

Now they are leftards.

Real engineers are linear, logical thinkers who tend to be libertarians in policy if not in party support.

You'd think a group working in computer programming would be the same but every techie I know resembles the two classes of Pedophiles: Star Trek geeks and Star Wars geeks (not to say techies are pedophiles.) 85% or more are left and irrationally emotional. Must be something to do with having no friends in high school or something.

But the logic in the work doesn't seem to carry over into anything else."

Really? The person who recruited me into the NDP was a P.Eng, who ran his own private business. How funny is that?

And computer science is based on mathematics, which is very logical and rational. How can that cause irrational emotions?

Perhaps a person's politics has nothing to do with their education, and more with their life experience? But that would be too much for you. Moonbat!!! Moonbat!!!! All of you!!!! Moonbats!!!

Hey, I'm getting pretty good at this!!!!

Look at me, I'm defending civilization!!! Moonbat!!! Moonbat!!! You all love Jack Layton, and hate civilization!!! Moonbat!!!!

I'm fighting the war on terror!!!

lol.

Exceptions in every bunch. Must be Toronto water.

You seem to cling to this conceit that the right is narrow-minded and rigidly ideological but the left is open and enlightened.

I see no difference between the far left (NDP and beyond) and the far right (so-cons like pat buchanan and beyond.)

It's funny how you leftards cling to old, tired and discredited ideas and desperately try to deny the failure of your ideas. You lot are the most dogmatic, rigid and intolerant groups on the planet. You split hairs over the reason why your ideas lead not to utopia but a kind of secular hell where instead of equality, all you get is death. The blame is never on the ideas or socialism itself. You kind of lie to yourselves and shift blame. Sad really.

Socialists are people who think that their way of thinking is the only acceptable way and that if you dare disagree, you should be punished to some degree. Here lies the difference between Stalin and the NDP. The modern NDP won't have you sent to the gulag, just hauled in front of a HRC kangaroo-court and fined. This is their "New" democratic party oppression. I suppose it's a step up from mass murder.

The far-right (as far as it still exists) is identical but for what part of society they wish to oppress.

I'm reading this and laughing pretty hard now. What Warwick says about engineers is generally true. Engineers are typically libertarian (or conservative by default due to the lack of libertarian voting choices). I was at a house party a few weeks back with some local media peeps and someone said to me "every engineer I've met is a Conservative."

But let's not pidgeon hole all engineers as the same. Heck, of all the engineers I know ONE is a lefty. But I attribute that to her being born in Winnipeg, raised in Ottawa, and having a father who was a career civil servant. Not to a mental defect on her part. She never had a chance.

I am a liberal and a professional engineer in mechanical engineering. I also know of quite a few other liberal engineers none are in a computer related field.

The only software engineer that I know of is a conservative.

"Socialists are people who think that their way of thinking is the only acceptable way and that if you dare disagree, you should be punished to some degree."

I'm sorry, I can't recall, but I don't think I have called for any one I disagree with to be punished? The only people I have met who demand rigid ideological adherence are right-wing, religious fundamentalists (Christians, Jews and Muslims)

Modern socialists must be completely ignorant of history. The record of socialism has been nothing but one of miserable failure, time and time again. Despite the best intentions of many of its ideological adherents, it invariably results in economic catastrophe and despotism. As ET says, everything falls to the lowest common denominator.

Socialism = the pursuit of mediocrity at best.

SLM....answer the question!!! When your insurance company is gone,because your company is gone where are you going to get your benefits?? Please answer WHO is going to give them to you?

Computer scientist and current masters E.E. here (in case anyone cares).

I'm logical and conservative. I don't know if you can funnel a particular group in to one hard and fast ideology, but socialist vs conservative is as close as it comes. Socialists are boneheads, conservatives are realistic.

Face it, socialism is an abject failure. Capitalism, on the other hand, feeds people and progresses society. I wonder where Africa would be without the billions of dollars in aid? Long gone is my guess.

The amount of Aid does not even come close to the tariffs and subsidies that the Americans, Canadians and the EU have in place.
Debt relief and Aid is joke how about opening up our markets, or is one way trade only good for China.

Heric Holmes:

You're missing the point. Africa wouldn't have a hope in he** if it weren't for progressive nations with - yes, it's true - capitalist economic systems.

You see, as a conservative, I see the failures within capitalism, but they are far overshadowed by the complete and utter failure of socialism. What socialists have never understood is that, at the end of the day, you're dealing with people. Everyone wants to work and to buy things and to better themselves. However, if you give them the opportunity to sit on their a** and have the state pay for everything, they'll opt for that until they realize they are able bodied losers. When that realization comes, then they want everyone to pay (and I mean 'pay' in more than monetary terms) for their world 'done wrong'. They don't understand that hard work and entrepreneurship benefits the soul.

"conservatives are realistic"

Yup, that realism is all over the streets of Baghdad for everyone to see.

"I wonder where Africa would be without the billions of dollars in aid?"

I think they would be happier if we reduce agricultural subsidies that hurt their farmers.

Since we've already established that many of the frequent commentors on this site are in from engineering and science backgrounds ..... it would seem that we have an anomaly here in the person of SLM!

FWIW - his does not strike me as the thoughts of a reasoning and logical sort ... however to be fair I suppose he deserves to be taken at his word.

That being said ... every comment or argument put forth so far by the fellow has been an exercise in non sequitur , misdirection and confabulation..... not what I'd call the mark of a person who is sure of their facts and logic.

Postscript,
I think the main point in Africa is that in most African countries the ruling elite sees all the benefit of foreign aid and debt relief.

The rest of the population has to work super hard just to survive. There is no such thing as social assistance in the Congo for example.

Democratization and free trade are the only way to help these countries. Democratization reduces corruption and free trade would give them markets for their goods. No one wants to pay for it Canada included.

"That being said ... every comment or argument put forth so far by the fellow has been an exercise in non sequitur , misdirection and confabulation..... not what I'd call the mark of a person who is sure of their facts and logic"

No, it is the mark of some one who uses humour and sarcasm.

Incidentally, do you take me at my word when I call for the destruction of western civilization? Do you think that I actually want to live under Sharia? As an atheist, do you think I want to live in a religious state?

Has it occurred to you, that a person may be logically opposed to Islamic extremism, yet disagree about the means to combat it? Could it be, that the ranting in the site, and all conservative blogs, have nothing to do with fighting Islam, and everything to do with internal politics?

Could it be, that what really drives the right, is the sense of helplessness they felt on 9/11. The humiliation, that a bunch of wack-jobs killed 3000 people, in such a horrific way, with nothing but box cutters. That humiliation, the weakness, the helplessness, the desire for some one be strong. The desire for clarity, out of what is clearly, a complex world. That is what drives the right.

Today, I have had people would call names, and call for my head to be cut off. Is this the "rationality" that conservatives display?

None of you are conservatives. You are nothing but scared little children, playing soldier, praying for some one to protect you. You huddle around each other for support, reassuring each other that you are right, that the world is coming to an end, and only each of you can save it. "Fighting" the battle from the safety of your keyboards.

In 20 years, when Europe is still around, when Israel still exists, when the Canadian troops are home, when people are still listening to Mozart, and reading Shakespeare, and immigrants are making their way in our society, what will you be then?

Alone, that's what. Alone with yourself, and your silly little blogs. You'll be like the Communists today, standing on lonely street corners, not even able to get yourself arrested for anything. Your time will have passed, and many of you will even deny having held the opinions your expressed to me today.

The world is going to survive, and you will have had nothing to do with it. If you're lucky, in some history narrative about the early 21st Century, some one might make a brief comment about the intolerance of right-wingers in the post 9/11 world, but that will be it. That will be your legacy to humanity, a disorganized, online Nuremburg rally for angry ruffians with no where to go. Beyond that, no one will know, or care what happens here.

Wow. I've rarely ever commented on the whole "terrorism/security" issue, but SLM is so over the top it's laughable.

The unique thing about this (and other) online communities is the varied demographic that come together to communicate. SLM seems to have stumbled in, with *his own* set of preconceived notions, and thinks he has everyone here figured out. Bravo, maestro.

BTW: I'll look for your subsequent posts, along with your wisdom and guidance, after a dirty nuke gets dropped in the Toronto subway.

heric holmes:

I agree that the elite have the control. I happen to personally know individuals in African countries with direct ties to the government and very senior government officials. They will tell you that a majority of the aid we send to Africa never reaches the intended destination.

The Self-Loathing Multiculturalist:

You're an ass, plain and simple. I don't care that I call you names because I'm calling you what you truly are.

You have done what all extreme-leftist liberals and socialists do when their arguments hold no water, you resort to dogma and ideological crap that means nothing to no one - except that you can purport to say, "There, I know more than you".

I, quite frankly, am scared. I'm scared of extremists in Islamic nations who want to destroy the Western world. I'm also scared of the extreme Left ideology that claims to be democratic and free, yet bustles with a fascist monster that lives below its public face.

I have no idea what you're trying to say about '20 years from now' and the gibberish you wrote afterward. I'll be happy in 20 yrs to be alive, plain and simple. In some ways it has everything to do with what is happening now in the Middle East, in other ways is has nothing to do with it.

The fact of the matter, and I make no apology for being (as you say) intolerant, because I hold to the belief that truth is not relative and truth is attainable. In your asinine way, you are being more intolerant than you can probably comprehend. This can be *truthfully* said of much of the extreme Left, though they loath to admit it. They are, in fact, more intolerant than the extreme Right they chide and denigrate.

SLM - a person may be logically opposed to Islamic extremism, yet disagree about the means to combat it?

Of course. Actually, I think you will find that there are quite of variety of opinions on this subject among "conservatives" expressed here. We don't all agree with some of the more extreme positions or solutions proposed here.

I'm curious, how do you propose to fight Islamic extremism, SLM?

SLM. Wow, are you ever a jackass.
When your what, 20? years old being a left winger, self professed atheist, progressive, what ever you call your self, may be forgivable, when your 60 it is not. Your views are strictly yours. Thanks a bunch for expressing them. Exactly what is your point, people who read blogs are kooks? But, Trolls looking for conflict are saving the world?

Yep .... got this SLM Guy pegged alright!

Go point your finger at yourself little man.

Self-Loather....I do believe you have struck a nerve or two. Well done.

Quite easy to strike a nerve with this crowd. Look at these little children. Now, I'm irrational because I am an atheist? Really? Objectively speaking, there is no difference between SDA and an Islamic fundamentalist. They both want to see my head get cut off, though the Muslims at least have the guts to do it.

Let's see what else. So far, they have wished for my head to get cut off, and for Toronto to get hit with a nuclear weapon. Let's see what else they come up with?

As for combating Islamic extremism, it will be difficult in the short term, as the US has done much to poison the water. However, proposals for keeping the Middle East a nuclear weapons free zone, enforced by international inspections would be a useful start. Along with abiding by UN Security Council resolutions on resolving the Iraeli-Palestinian conflict. One needs to remember, that the opinions of SDA, LGF and so on not withstanding, Islamic terrorists are a fringe group. To combat terrorism, one must isolate the group, politically. That involves some level of engagement in the manner I mentioned above.

So far, they have wished for my head to get cut off...

Oh no, and after being an abortion survivor, too.

Did you just mention the toothless UN? OMG...you are too funny!
People, why do you bother talking with this fool, let him prattle on and ignore him, eventually the child will go away.

When the Sun Country Health District had a public meeting for input into their strategic plan, they showed us the provincial health goals, including "improved access to quality health care services" or something very close to that. I had to say, never mind "improved" and "quality." There were a couple hundred of us at that meeting (they had booked a room for 30), and most of us were looking for "restored" access to "basic" health care services.

That was some months ago. Just this week, they finally restored enough services here to stop locking the hospital doors at 11 p.m. every night.

It's just amazing how much armchair commies from the comfort of a capitalist society can piss in the wind and call it a refreshing rain shower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWJN5eJxOuU

this video is about Lorne Calvert.

Here is what I have learned about the right in my visits here:

You oppose rights for women, minorities and gays. You want to see Toronto nuked, and you want to cut my head off.

There is one important difference between the Islamic fundamentalists and yourselves: they have the guts to actually do it.

The Islamic fundamentalists serve as stand-ins for your own, grotesque form of pornography, where you imagine yourselves cutting off the heads of leftists, abortion providers, atheists, etc. You do this, because you don't have the guts to do it yourselves.

Incidentally, the 12th person to call for my beheading wins a free cadillac.

SLM, you have a strong desire to be self important, too bad you are not. No one wrote cut your head off. No one wished Toronto the good too be hit with an Atomic weapon. Who cares if you see your self as some sort of "bright".Or, if you wish too pray to the fire lord Morlock for all I care knock yourself out. You want issues raised and conflict, you can always have both. I wonder however, regarding some of them, would that Noble prize winner Jimmy Carter fit into your equation when you pontificate about "The USA poisoning the waters" in the Middle east. Remember Mr Carter was the President when the US Embassy was over run, hostages held, and the Islamic radicalism was greatly emboldened.( Canada by the way got a good deal of Americans out of harms way. With considerable risk to their own lives. Thank you Mr. Ken Taylor)
Carter dithered endlessly, and was rightly seen as the weakest of the weak. The USA was greatly harmed across the planet by it's inaction. Combined with Kommeni's endless drive to reach the 14th century in the 20th, with the use of radical Saudi funding and the overt use of "multiculturalism" promoted by left of center governments in all jurisdictions on the globe. Now Pakistan is Nuclear, seems to be a couple of radicals in that country, at least the last time I looked. Your end result is what we have today, powerless western governments dithering endlessly trying to be all things to all peoples. Your right on one part however, it is indeed our own self loathing that got us there. There is a strong need for integration, rather than Multiculturalism. Don't forget where your from, but, rather, where you are. No Sharia, no polygamy, no girls or boys getting mutilated, one law for everybody, regardless of colour of skin, religion, and treaty rights. Maybe check out Chris Hitchens, no conservative he, yet Hitch is spot on regarding
lots of things leftards hold tight to their bosom Maybe try Mark Steyn for a different flavor, both are excellent writers from different places.
Your comments about the Israeli/ Arab conflict being abated by peoples abiding by the UN's declarations is laughable. What, they are all going to abide by the UN Human Rights Council? One might say in Harry S Truman's words, that this has become a Do-Nothing ,Good for Nothing Council. The UN has enacted one resolution after another condemning a single state:Israel.
Hamas, Hizbollah, Zip Zero Ziltch.
Your comments regarding the " Fringe group that is Islamic Terrorists" being isolated politically to garner results. How is that working for Hamas or Hizbollah? Federal Liberal, NDP, and Bloq members of parliament all have marched with these terrorist supporters here in Canada. The UN working ok in Sudan? Going to work with the Taliban?
Not going to be easy...might be an understatement.

Off with 'is 'ead!

Please leave the keys to my Caddi beside the tactical nuclear weapon. Don't push any buttons.

"Hey idiot. You said it yourself earlier. It had nothing to do with islamofascism, and everything to do with ridding the country of the puppet soviet regime. And as far as the caliphate is concerned, I will not shoot the islamonutjobs until they are done beheading the moonbats. Promise!" The above is the exact quote. That is an explicit endorsement for cutting off my head.

The thing about Mark Steyn, is that he is completely wrong about everything. All of his predictions about Iraq, the middle east, Presidential elections, have been completely false. His demographics are nonsense, and are not born out by anyone who is actually familiar with demographic trends. There are at most, 15 million Muslims in all of Europe, in a population of 300 million. So, they are all going to become a giant, Sharia seeking bloc? No effect by intermarriage? No desire to integrate? Just one, big homogenous Muslim bloc.

Are you aware that different types of Muslims from different countries don't get along? That Muslims from South Central Asia are regarded as inferior by Arabic Muslims? Of course you did, because you are an expert in everything.

The rest of your post in pure nonsense. The Shah of Iran was the worst torturer in the middle east, and backed by US power. If the Americans had allowed a democratic government in the 1950s, there would be no Islamic revolution. If the Americans had pursued detente with Iran, instead of pushing for conflict, and shooting down Iranian jetliners full of civilians, and arming Saddam Hussein to fight against them, things perhaps, might have been different.

The Iranians are nutjobs, to be sure. But they are hardly a military threat. Israel could destroy them by themselves if they wanted to.

I am absolutely amazed that a bunch of Western Canadians, who are more likely to be killed in a car accident, or by a bolt of lightening, are so worried about Islamic terrorism.

"Off with 'is 'ead!

Please leave the keys to my Caddi beside the tactical nuclear weapon. Don't push any buttons."

And I thought you had no sense of humour. Gentlemen, touchez.

Very well said Talkinghead, I think you touched the baby's nerve!

...you imagine yourselves cutting off the heads of leftists, abortion providers, atheists, etc. You do this, because you don't have the guts to do it yourselves.

No courage required. When leftards decimate themselves by aborting their young, we don't cheer, but there is a quiet satisfaction in letting uncontrollable events take their course.

SLM
Why would conservative Canadians want to chop off your head?

We're against multiculturalism and the barbaric uncivilized forces that it nurtures and promotes.
Neither do we want to light you on fire if you're promiscuous nor bury you to the waist and hurl rocks at your head. Only chicken shit anonamous lefties throw rocks in Canada.
Conservatives on the other hand fight for the rights of women to KEEP thier clits safe from broken coke bottle loppers and those that promote them. We don't want to kill you if you're gay or the wrong religion, it's only selfloathing multiculturalists that advocate for that.

"touchez"

I don't doubt that selfloathing heads without bodies can croak out such loser-speak.

Conservatives won't.

"We don't want to kill you if you're gay or the wrong religion, it's only selfloathing multiculturalists that advocate for that."

If you please, could you provide a link to where a multiculturalist advocates killing people if you are gay, or the wrong religion.

"I don't doubt that selfloathing heads without bodies can croak out such loser-speak.

Conservatives won't."

What the hell does that even mean?

Stay on topic, or I'll send this comments thread to mass delete land.

I think it's the POK rearing it's ugly head now. All in the name of a God.

Off topic?

Kate, don't you realize that the fate of the entire free world hangs by a thread (heh) on what happens in the upcoming Sask election?

As Bob Edwards once said, the surest sign of getting old is the fact that you just can't wait for the next election!